Star Trek: The Next Generation
Air date: 5/24/1993
Teleplay by Rene Echevarria
Story by Mike Medlock
Directed by LeVar Burton
Review by Jamahl Epsicokhan
The Enterprise arrives at a barren world that's the site of a former Starfleet installation that was abandoned eight years ago because the planet's distortion field rendered access to the surface impossible by both shuttle and transporter. With brief windows of entry over the next few days, the Enterprise hopes to retrieve data from the station's computers before the opportunity for access expires. Crucial detail: Riker was part of the original evacuation mission eight years ago when Starfleet abandoned the post and was just barely beamed out before the window in the field closed completely.
So the crew is stunned to find a doppelganger of Riker on the station who claims to have been trapped there for eight years. It turns out the planet's distortion field caused Riker's transporter beam to be copied and reflected back to the surface, essentially cloning him (memories and all) into two separate people who are equally and legitimately William T. Riker. Neither knew that the other existed.
It's another high concept, to be sure, but it's a brilliant one the story takes seriously and uses to explore the past and present of Riker's character better than nearly all TNG episodes that have ever centered on him. Here's an episode that stops to consider that when you come face to face with someone who claims to be you and the proof shows he's not lying, a piece of you feels like your identity has been stolen. While this version of Riker seems a little too well-adjusted (and, indeed, not as different from our Riker in general as he probably should be) given that he has spent the past eight years in total isolation, the story uses its premise to posit a series of what-ifs (hence the title) — taking a look at the choices Riker made eight years ago, and asking whether he would make them again.
Most crucially is the question of Riker and Troi. If you look at the six years of TNG's run to this point, you realize that a lot was implied and hinted at about Riker and Troi and their relationship before they were both assigned to the Enterprise — indeed, the most concrete dialogue might actually have been in "Encounter at Farpoint," regrettably. But "Second Chances" finally takes a look at these two people and acknowledges that they once had an important and real relationship, and uses that to tell the rare romantic story on TNG that actually, truly works — precisely because it has a real history and real stakes and is believable, rather than being concocted in a few hours or days and banished to the realm of the immediately irrelevant, like most one-off romances.
This Riker spent many of those first few trapped months holding on to the hope that he would be rescued and ultimately reunited with Deanna — and when he learns that after the very mission that left him stranded his duplicate went on to make his career the priority, he finds it almost impossible to believe. He is certain he would never make that choice himself. But the situation allows them to perhaps pick up where they left off, and Troi herself allows for the possibility. "Second Chances" is essentially an exploration of the age-old adage of The Road Not Traveled, and a surprisingly effective one with good dialogue and character moments. One man went on to choose his career over his relationship, while the other one spent eight years trapped in a hole. Now seeing the big picture, the guy who was trapped in the hole has some resentments.
This culminates in a very good scene where Riker plays a poker hand against himself and the two of them clear the air. It's a simple and grounded scene dealing with an extraordinary situation. But naturally, you can't go home again; there are too many complications for the romance here to continue, and ultimately we can't have two Rikers living aboard the Enterprise. But I respect the decision by the writers not to make the obvious move of killing Thomas Riker and instead having him transferred to another ship to continue his life. (And this would, of course, have its own intriguingly bizarro consequences in DS9's third-season episode, "Defiant.") "Second Chances" is an episode that could've been a cynical or shallow exploration of its premise, but the execution is anything but.
Previous episode: Rightful Heir
Next episode: Timescape
Like this site? Support it by buying Jammer a coffee.
119 comments on this post
Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 4:20pm (UTC -5)
And the fact that Deanna never mentions Tom Riker again -- and jumps in the sack with Worf of all people in season 7 -- is ridiculous.
Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 5:07pm (UTC -5)
I know that for the sake of the show they had to send Thomas Riker away, but it still made me mad. If they had kept him around for a bit so that relationship could have been explored more, I would have enjoyed it.
I've always thought I would enjoy meeting a "younger" self. Could be interesting--but Will acts like Thomas did it on purpose to screw with him. I don't like Will in this episode.
Which is all just quibble, really--I love this episode for the way they deal with the "what if?" scenario. It's a great one.
Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 9:13pm (UTC -5)
Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 3:58pm (UTC -5)
Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 2:11am (UTC -5)
Particularly the way Troi just jumps into a relationship with the 'other' Riker.. makes her seem silly and desperate.
You know, I always thought Jonathan Frakes was a decent actor until this one and Frame of Mind came along.
Wed, Sep 26, 2012, 3:44pm (UTC -5)
I LOVE this episode, but as someone mentioned above my comment, next season Troi jumps in bed with Worf, and what the hell is Riker doing? I still feel like Riker is one of the most abused characters in Star Trek. He could have been so much more. I prefer Riker from season 1 and 2. I think ferengi have bigger balls than Riker by season 6 and 7. If you could have told Riker in Season 1 that in 7 years, he would still be first officer, he is not married to Troi (hasn't really banged her much either) AND he was offered command at least 3 times, he probably would have killed himself!
Tue, Oct 9, 2012, 2:11pm (UTC -5)
That's a little over the top. Riker was still Riker until the fifth season or so. It's about then when he's basically late-TOS Scotty to Picard (Kirk) and Data (Spock).
I wonder if some of this had to do with Frakes directing a bunch of episodes. But either way, he certainly devolved from "the finest officer I've ever served with" to a background character.
He actually has a bit of a resurgence in the movies. His dialog with Cochrane in "FC" was good and, though it was Scotty-esque, he was good in command of the Enterprise is "Insurrection".
Of course, he was completely worthless in "Nemesis".
Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 12:07am (UTC -5)
Wed, Dec 5, 2012, 12:24pm (UTC -5)
His turn on DS9 was great for that reason too. I think he would have made a great regular or semi-regular character there as the much more relaxed, adventurous Tom. I liked Eddington well enough, but Frakes in that role over a number of episodes would have been excellent.
Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 3:33pm (UTC -5)
We view a version of a main character with some change made to their past and see the implications their experiences have had on making them who they are today. The character also sees this and has a new appreciation for their past experiences.
I don't really think it ultimately makes this a worse episode, but I do think it's interesting that they have such similar concepts. I guess it goes to show that if you reuse a concept well enough, people don't notice or don't care.
Wed, May 1, 2013, 12:58am (UTC -5)
Wed, May 1, 2013, 6:49pm (UTC -5)
But your idea avoids that problem, Krog. If Will Riker simply opted for promotion (just in time for the season-ending cliffhanger), it would've completed his character arc *and* left him alive for potential movie cameos. Again, it must've been the pressure of a TV writing schedule that kept them from seeing the possibility (even during the 6/7 break).
Fri, May 17, 2013, 5:00am (UTC -5)
Fri, May 17, 2013, 5:39am (UTC -5)
Wed, Jun 19, 2013, 9:22am (UTC -5)
Plus the Troi - Tom split-up at the end didn't really ring true for me.
Sun, Sep 22, 2013, 4:49pm (UTC -5)
I didn't end up finishing it, but after rewatching BoBW I started writing about Riker's character arc in that ep, and why I think he stays on the Enterprise at the end. On some level, the idea that Riker *has* to leave the Enterprise to follow his career is just as much a construct as the idea that he *has* to stay and stay under Picard's thumb. By "defeating" Picard and rescuing him all in one motion, Riker proves in part 2 that it is not fear of working without the net that allows him to stay; he genuinely likes serving on the Enterprise under Picard for its own sake. "Future Imperfect," not long thereafter, suggests that maybe Riker's desire to stay on the ship is also because the ship he wants to command is really the Enterprise (Riker says something similar in Generations). Given that "The Icarus Factor" (in a somewhat muddled way) ties Riker's ambition to his anger at his father, I think that the fact that he has let go of some of his anger at Kyle Riker is also part of why it's possible for Will to get settled, and, in particular, for him to stay on the Enterprise to maintain a close relationship with his mentor, friend, and surrogate father in Jean-Luc.
And yet, while I can see all that, it still is not really made explicit, especially not in this show, and this means that there is a gap in the Will/Tom conflict. Tom is a reminder of what Will has left behind, both good and bad, but it doesn't lead clearly enough to the question of *why* he left that behind.
On the other hand, I think this does the best job of explaining the Riker/Troi relationship and breakup that has yet been done. On some level, I think Troi really is still not *over* Riker's prioritizing his career over her back in the day. If Riker could say with certainty that he was staying on the Enterprise for the forseeable future, and if he also decided that he genuinely wanted a relationship with Troi, I think that he could win her over. However, for the most part, that's not what Riker wants -- he likes the emotional intimacy he has with Troi, but going for anything deeper actually means risking hurting her again in a way that she might not be able to forgive or get over. When Will warns Troi about not falling for Tom, because Tom will hurt her, I think he's also implicitly warning Deanna about himself. *He* is still not trustworthy; it's not just that he wasn't trustworthy all those years ago, but he still does not trust himself not to hurt her.
For what it's worth, I think season six is a very good year for Riker stories -- this, "Frame of Mind," "Schisms," and the Riker/Jellico part of "Chain of Command" (part 2 especially) are all quite good.
Mon, Sep 23, 2013, 10:02am (UTC -5)
It's too bad "The Pegasus" didn't take place in the fourth or fifth season, because that did provide rationale for Riker not getting a command of his own for a time as his reputation was tarnished. But, after the Borg attack and before that episode, it was kind of amazing that he was still on the Enterprise. I know there's some indication that Riker didn't get a ship immediately after BOBW because the fleet needed to be rebuilt. But that flies in the face of the ridiculous size of Starfleet (as far as the number of ships) that we see in DS9. And, anyway, Riker could have stayed on the Excalibur after "Redemption" or captained one of the ships that Picard said NEEDED captains at that point (presumably, those ships were part of the post-BOBW buildup).
Thu, Dec 26, 2013, 10:24am (UTC -5)
Sun, Jan 5, 2014, 2:58pm (UTC -5)
That, and I feel like nothing happened. I'm not an action junkie and action isn't necessarily a missing piece, but the episode doesn't really pique my interest. There's not enough real conflict, and the one between the Rikers feels artificial.
As for the relationship angle, I sort of like it. It would have been better if it weren't a one-off, though.
Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 11:16pm (UTC -5)
Used to love Marvel's 'What if ..'comic . This fits right in. I actually wouldn't mind having a replica of me out around but given Riker's personality, I could see how it would irk him.
Somebody should remind Data that he met his own doppel ganger. He's already dealt with the uniqueness question.
Evil Troi couldn't resist the chance to get Will back for choosing career over love. She just had to lead him on.
Sat, Feb 1, 2014, 8:45am (UTC -5)
It also made me wonder why anyone ever uses transporters anymore.... lol.
Sat, Feb 15, 2014, 1:34pm (UTC -5)
Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 12:29pm (UTC -5)
Just seemed like the same thing when they met...stupid arguing...nothing more.
Jeri Taylor (and much of the staff) wanted to kill Will Riker and replace him with Tom. Tom would have run ops and Data would have been the executive officer. Berman thought about it, but said no because he thought it would cause too many problems. Too bad...
Sun, Apr 6, 2014, 11:38am (UTC -5)
Thu, Jul 3, 2014, 11:29am (UTC -5)
I agree with the first commenter though, Tom Riker wouldn't be as well adjusted.
Has anyone seen 'Moon'? It kind of illustrates how years of isolation would change you. The main characters in that was talking to plants and that was only after 3 years. If Tom Riker was alone for 8 years he'd be nutty.
Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 7:35am (UTC -5)
As it is, it's rushed. Will's hostility toward his double comes off as forced.
Regarding Tom's state of mind, I think the only explanation is that the station had a holodeck. That's pure conjecture, but it's the only thing that would explain his mental health.
Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 5:00pm (UTC -5)
But this got stuck in the "one episode per story; one gimmick per story" paradigm.
Sun, Aug 3, 2014, 1:56pm (UTC -5)
Sat, Aug 9, 2014, 9:36am (UTC -5)
Sat, Aug 9, 2014, 11:02am (UTC -5)
Wed, Aug 13, 2014, 5:48pm (UTC -5)
So his career is at a standstill and his social life is in stasis. So it's hard to write stories about him. Maybe that's why he gets the everyman stories, stories that he just reacts to stuff rather than be about him (Frame of Mind and Schisms are perfect examples). He's such a bland persona at this point that there's nothing else for him. There's no buildup on his ambition anymore, and there's no longer much emphasis on his ability to think on his feet and improvise. Unfortunately, the only thing left is to contrast with Picard (a la Kirk and Spock). But since Picard's character set is being calm, rational, and highly competent, that just means Riker becomes loud and dumb and emotional. Hence his constant yelling and stomping around and failing to solve anything.
I know some people have said that the problem is that he no longer has the cool duty of leading away teams, but is that a cause or an effect of his devolution? If Picard is becoming more exciting to the audience and becoming a more interesting character, than it becomes easier for the writers to write about Picard. Who wants to write for a nobody? It's not as bad as I remember Chakotay being, but the Riker of later Trek is a rather weak character.
So it was nice to at least see an episode like this, but I'm not altogether thrilled with the execution. Perhaps part of it is, in fact, that it's hard to deal with an issue like this in such a short time-frame. But I think there are some plotting issues too:
1) I was continually reminded of Shelby. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. But Will getting upset at Tom doing things his own way on an away mission? Tom going over Will's head to Picard, and Will getting pissed at it? The old fight about playing it safe? A poker match that is a not-at-all veiled subtext over their antagonism? It was all the same, covering no new material. BoBW concluded that storyline nicely, with Riker proving he could take risks and step up when the time came. So seeing the issues come up again here felt rather unnecessary. But it was unfortunately a big part of the plot.
2) Reading these comments is the first I heard that they were planning to kill Will in this episode. The underground scene suddenly makes a lot more sense. I thought on watching it how plainly obvious it was as a setup to get rid of one of the two Rikers. And just because they didn't do it here, it doesn't mean the scene works any better. If they scrapped the script where Will died, they should have scrapped this scene as well.
3) The technology is highly implausible. If we are going to ding Rascals for the silly transporter accident, and if we're going to ding Unnatural Selection for turning the transporter into a device to make others immortal, than we should ding this episode for making the transporter into a duplicator. I forgive a lot of Trek's magic, and in truth I forgive this episode of it too, but I feel the need to point it out anyway. In order to be logically consistent, we should have just as much a problem with this event as we do any of Voyager's reset buttons. Personally I can swallow more disbelief if the episode is good, but I do want to point it out.
So that leaves, essentially, the Troi romance subplot. I'm not sure how I feel about this. I honestly don't have a problem with Troi ignoring Tom after this episode. It was foreshadowed pretty heavily when Will mentioned that Tom was basically the same person and would make the same choices he did. And then, in the end, we see Tom going off on another mission, promising to go back to her several months later, exactly like what Will Riker did to her 8 years ago. She undoubtedly saw the parallels. And figured it would probably end the same way.
But I guess the question then remains, why did Troi pick up the romance in the first place? Did she really think such a thing through? She should have known that Tom didn't want just a fling, so she would have had to consider it as something for the long haul. And yet, at the same time, did she really think she could commit to Tom while staying on the Enterprise and working side by side with Will? She's a psychiatrist, couldn't she see the obvious tensions that would form?
I guess that means she never really got over Will (as William said above), if she was willing to jump right back into it. Heck, maybe that explains all the jabs she's made at Riker over the years as someone who is still in a bit of a love-hate relationship with an ex-lover who spurned her (see the beginning of the episode as an example, where Troi was trying to embarrass Will during his jam session). But then it makes me wonder, in all the years on the Enterprise, why didn't she ever try to get back together? Why didn't she take the initiative? And if she's built up 6 years of a new relationship with Will, how would she separate that relationship with Tom? You are essentially going from dating one twin to dating another. Yes, it's not really a fair comparison since Will and Tom were the same person back then, but how will she ever see Tom as anything but the "not real" Riker?
Then again, people do stupid things when in love. Why should Troi be any different?
In the end, the Troi-Tom angle becomes the most interesting part of the show, since the Tom-Will angle felt so flat and trite. But then the Troi-Tom angle had its issues too, because they didn't have time to fully explore them. So I think this is closer to a "good" episode than a great one. Very interesting idea, but needed a better execution. I mostly agree with WilliamB's analysis above (except the part about Riker being afraid of hurting Troi again; if he was serious about pursuing a relationship with her, he wouldn't hurt her, at least not in the same way. I think at this point he's essentially adrift in life and is afraid of going after what he wants.), but disagree with how well the story was executed.
Sat, Oct 25, 2014, 1:25pm (UTC -5)
If you compare first officers on the 24th century series (Riker-Kira-Chakotay), only one of the them really gets to see growth in their character, and it's largely because the setting of her series is larger than The Ship. Kira grew by leaps and bounds as a character as DS9 progressed, but Riker and especially Chakotay became smaller and smaller as time passed.
Sun, Dec 7, 2014, 11:47pm (UTC -5)
That, and it's off-putting how no one seems to care about Tom Riker's feelings. He's brought off the planet, and then immediately expected to act like he's just another junior grade officer. Why couldn't they just let him get used to the Enterprise again before giving him any duties? Maybe allow him some recovery time after being alone for several years? What huge jerks.
Wed, Apr 1, 2015, 7:26pm (UTC -5)
A totally underrated episode. And, do you know what's even more satisfying? NO RESET SWITCH. All the way through this episode, on first viewing, I was expecting to see Tom Riker die at some point, but thank god the writer of the episode had a brain to realize why that would be a cheat way out. Tom makes another appearance in DS9, which I also enjoyed (at least SOME writers out there give a shit about canon and continuity).
A shame that his character wasn't utilized more with Troi... It would have been nice to see the arc get completed at some point. But nothing takes away from the fact that this is a well written tale that asks questions, doesn't brow beat you with answers, and respects the characters and viewers.
Thu, Apr 2, 2015, 10:43am (UTC -5)
It would've been awesome if somehow Tom Riker assisted with Damar's revolution in some way towards the end of DS9 but he probably just rotted away in a Cardassian cell :(
Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 2:01pm (UTC -5)
I like that it was considered to kill off Cmdr. Riker. They could have went another way, promote Cmdr. Riker and keep Lt. Riker on the ship. A less note, I loved that Lt. Riker almost died, because you think they're hitting the reset switch, but nope there's going to be two of them.
Thu, Oct 1, 2015, 10:42am (UTC -5)
While it is true that it's an actually engaging romance story and a wonderful tale of "The Road Not Traveled," what is the end result? Tom decides to travel the exact same road Will went down. He chooses to put his career ahead of Troi. We're asked to believe that this man spent eight years in complete isolation doing next to nothing besides literally pining away for this woman and yet when he finally is given the chance to be reunited with her, what is his response? "I can't stay on the ship; not as long as 'he's' on-board." In other words, Tom can't, or won't, get past the fact that Will had a better career than he did. Because he's obviously not upset that Will had a relationship with Troi, because he didn't. Either way you cut it, Tom prioritizes himself ahead of his relationship with Troi. It's a complete sabotage of a wonderful build-up. I mean, if he truly loved her and really spent all that time missing her, a more believable response would be for him to resign from Starfleet and remain on the Enterprise as a civilian.
I've heard rumors that what was originally planned for "Second Chances" was for Will Riker to die, for Data to be promoted to full Commander and First Officer and for Tom Riker to take over Data's old job as Operations Manager. The rumors also state that the producers ultimately nixed the idea because they thought is was simply too ambitious of a concept that would, in the end, do nothing but confuse casual viewers. While, like Jammer, I also applaud them for not going the super-easy way out with Tom Riker's death, this original idea would have been a much better way to end this story. As others have noted, myself included in other reviews, Riker was simply going nowhere as a character by this point. I actually like the fact that he remained on the Enterprise after saving the Federation in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II." Simply shuttling him off by giving him his own command would have been easiest thing in the world to do. By keeping him on the show they had the chance to do something unique (like having him put down roots, as others have suggested). The problem is - they never did that. They just let the character languish instead of actually giving us a proper motivation for him not moving on with his career. If Will had died here and Tom "replaced" him on the show, they could have finally done just that - give us a Riker that was clearly ready to put down roots and pursue a committed relationship with Troi. Instead, we had to wait for the abysmal "Insurrection" for their relationship to start up again out of the clear blue sky. Talk about a missed opportunity.
The other major fault is the scene between Worf and Data on the planet where Data asks Worf why the two Rikers, especially Will, have such a hard time with each other. There is an enormous elephant in the room here that just gets ignored (TNG seems to do that a lot here in Season Six). And that elephant goes by the name of Lore. Data has experienced the exact same thing that the Rikers are experiencing - coming face to face with a duplicate of himself. And yet it doesn't even get a mention? Instead Data serves as the character who has the "aww shucks, I just don't understand" mentality? Give me a break!
But, I still want to like the episode. The standout moment is the poker scene. I absolutely love this display of male dynamics. We have four men all coming at the same issue from different perspectives and it's wonderfully handled. While it's odd that only three people were playing poker at the start of the scene, if Crusher, or certainly Troi, had been involved it would have ruined it. And massive props to Brent Spiner and Michael Dorn. After Tom metaphorically lays all his cards on the table and storms out we get short cuts to Data and Worf's faces and we can see exactly what they're thinking without a word of dialogue from either one. Very well done.
I really want to be generous here, because it's not a bad episode by any stretch of the imagination. It just fumbles the ball at the goal-line. So, I'll go ahead and be generous....
Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 3:46pm (UTC -5)
The relationship aspect with Troi is well played out, nicely understated, and given room to breathe. Ironically, while I thought Frakes' performance was somewhat overwrought in Frame of Mind, I thought he was a lot better here. There was a subtle, edgy pushiness to Tom, setting him apart from a Will who perhaps is not pushing so hard anymore. The poker scene brought things to a head well.
But you have to wonder whether eight years alone would have pushed someone over the edge far more than it appears Tom suffered. And being ordered around - by yourself, no less - might come has a bit more of a shock. As might it have come to Troi and the rest of the crew. So there's some really, really good stuff in here, but just not quite enough for true greatness.
“I am not easy to get along with” indeed. 3 stars.
Sun, Jan 10, 2016, 3:51pm (UTC -5)
I want to know how the duplicate Riker was shot. It's obviously the same actor, yet they appear in the same frame, even in front of each other, moving around. How do they do this?
Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:17am (UTC -5)
I don't see the parallel. Lore and Data only LOOK the same, whereas the Rikers literally branched off the same person, which means that they share much more in common with each other such as certain inherent personality traits and all the experience before they branched off. The appropriate question would be how would 2 Datas interact with each other? I imagine they'd get along, since they have no emotions to get in the way.
Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 11:24am (UTC -5)
Yes, I know they did this as well in an early TOS episode with Kirk. I have the same problem with it.
Oh, and even though Will had his pick of ships after BOBW's, he chose to stay on the Enterprise as the 1st officer and wait for Picard to retire or be promoted. Those are my thoughts. Then, he could be the Captain of the Enterprise. It'd been nice if they'd even hinted at that during the series, so we'd know for certain why Riker is letting his career stagnate.
Promoting Will and leaving Tom on the Enterprise? Might have been neat, but folks that missed that ONE episode would have been somewhat lost. Same if Will had died.
Oh, and after they almost fell into that pit, they go and fix the machine, and the next shot is a outer visual of the ship. Did they beam out? If so, why not just beam in instead of using a shaky bridge in the first place? And if they didn't beam out, how did they get back across?
If, as has been suggested, the replicators worked originally, could he have replicated a probe, shot it into space, and had it relay his situation to Starfleet? Heck, the problem was the planet had a condition they couldn't beam through, but the little station should have been functioning just fine 8 years ago. Tom said "The replicators haven't worked for a long time, it's been a while since I've had a decent meal", so they operated initially.
I don't know, it just didn't work for me. Then or now...
Thanks and have a great day... RT
Tue, Mar 1, 2016, 12:15am (UTC -5)
This one is awful. Tom effortlessly adjusts to moving from eight years of solitude to life on the Enterprise, which would be hugely traumatic even without a doppelgänger. Conversely Will, who merely has to come to terms with the arrival of Tom, is an absolute arsehole to 'himself' even before the Troi triangle is established.
So basically the Riker who's been sat alone for eight years has in that time developed better 'soft skills' than the Riker who's risen to the rank of Starfleet Commander.
Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 10:25am (UTC -5)
It just seems like Tom is getting a really raw deal from Starfleet: "Oh by the way, we gave a promotion to your clone for the acts of valor that you both performed. You say you were marooned for 8 years alone? Just be thankful we're letting you keep your commission, Lieutenant; If Picard hadn't pulled some strings, you wouldn't even be assigned ship duty!"
Oh well, at least they didn't kill him off completely, or (perhaps) worse - leave him stranded alone on the planet for another 8 years.
Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 12:31am (UTC -5)
One, Thomas said everything that Troi wanted to hear eight years or so ago and she got swept up in her own emotions.
Two, she knew that Thomas' presence aboard the Enterprise was temporary so she allowed herself to essentially have a piece of Riker since she couldn't have the real/current Riker.
Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 1:40am (UTC -5)
Two, she knew that Thomas' presence aboard the Enterprise was temporary so she allowed herself to essentially have a piece of Riker since she couldn't have the real/current Riker."
Three, Troi always wanted Riker back but wasn't going to initiate anything until he was ready. He came onto the ship hesitant about seeing her again and made sure things were stable since that's his job as first officer. At some point that stability turned into his classic 'safe' habit such as is discussed in BoBW, also involving his declining commands of his own. It's a holding pattern, and we might even imagine he wanted to stay as #1 on the Enterprise because Troi was there. Thomas had none of that, including the responsibility of maintaining order on the ship, he went for her, and she was going to say yes to Riker at such a time as he came to her. Further evidence of this can be found in the features, where he does eventually want to go back to her and she accepts him more or less without question and marries him.
Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 4:57pm (UTC -5)
Deanna -- well, I think that the Enterprise was simply always a great career move (and where is she going to get promoted to?), so careerwise she's not in the holding pattern he's in, and in fact she even takes greater career initiative within the series than he does (with the eventual improbable Thine Own Self promotion). And I think that she was probably pretty happy with Riker, relationship-wise. It's possible that observing her own mother's pushiness is part of why she had the level of patience to put up with Riker's kind of waffling on how serious their thing is as long as he did, subtly opting for "slightly more than friends" intimacy without being willing to go all in. (I love when she gets sarcastic with him about it. From The Loss: "Imzadi..." "OH PLEASE.") In fact it may be that she needed to get up the nerve to treat herself with more respect -- being a potential equal to him (in rank too!) and being willing to try dating, first with another actual Riker and then with Worf (even though it probably never would have worked), to implicitly let him know that the clock was ticking, for him to finally grow up. (The various men-of-the-week didn't seem that serious for the most part, and the ones who did -- like Ral -- turned out to be evil to various degrees so could be chalked up to her making stupid decisions rather than her being independent enough Riker would have to seriously risk losing her romantically.) I ignore most of Insurrection and Nemesis in my head but Riker/Troi getting together (and him taking a command) is something I think makes sense as an endpoint of that story and I'm happy enough with it.
Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:01pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 3:56am (UTC -5)
Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 6:16am (UTC -5)
Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:59pm (UTC -5)
Agreed. I like Riker, but they never do anything with him in the later seasons. This was their chance to finally give the character the promotion he deserved and shake things up while still keeping a Riker on board. What a wasted opportunity. At the very least this should have been a wake up call that put Riker back in the spotlight and Picard back on the bridge where he belonged.
Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 10:24pm (UTC -5)
I disagree that promoting Will off the show and keeping on Thomas as Lieutenant would've worked. People always forget this show was written for syndication and so throwing a character off the show (even if replaced with the same actor) would simply confuse the audience too much. If you didn't happen to catch this episode you'd be confused at what would feel like Will's demotion to Lieutenant. The episodes following would need to constantly remind us that Will isn't the same guy from before and it would get old quick.
In fact, we can sort of see this experiment in action with Ezri Dax in DS9. If you haven't watched season 7 lately, nearly every Dax episode is about Ezri proving she isn't Jadzia. But rarely is Ezri's character complemented for this, as people simply would've preferred Jadzia staying around over tedious Ezri exposition.
Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 11:39pm (UTC -5)
Good point. I hadn't considered the implications that would have on syndication.
I still wish they hadn't let the character stagnate so much. He hardly does anything anymore, it's like he's become a side characte.
Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 11:28am (UTC -5)
I also wish Riker got more scenes in later episodes. I want to say it was because Frakes was too busy directing, but I don't see him credited with that many episodes.
At some point, Picard became the new Kirk and Data became the new Spock, leaving little space for Riker. You see this especially in the movies, like Insurrection, where Riker is just given some random fist-fight so has something to do.
Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 11:58am (UTC -5)
Tue, Sep 5, 2017, 4:39pm (UTC -5)
The opposite problem happened in Menage a Troi when Wesley started wearing regular uniforms and his was red. Can't imagine Wesley was on the command track...I'd have expected either a yellow or blue uniform for him.
Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 12:16am (UTC -5)
It seemed a bit that Lt. Riker easily integrated into everything Enterprise after *8 years* all alone -- very little was discussed about how he survived but that isn't the point of the story. But I think it should have been covered at least medically/psychologically -- not just establishing that he's an exact, perfect copy due to brain scans etc.
The other thing I was reminded of was "The Enemy Within" from TOS, however this duplicate of Riker is a true duplicate. The transporter technobabble wasn't bad here and it works when you easily accept it.
Commander Riker appeared to be more driven to succeed (e.g. poker game) and I guess because Lt. Riker was all alone for 8 years, perhaps his competitiveness to succeed wasn't at the same level.
The ending scene with the ladder collapsing was a huge cliche. Up to that point the 2 Rikers were not comfortable with each other but after Commander saves Lt. everything's cool.
A strong 2.5 stars for "Second Chances" -- a decent character examination episode for Troi/Riker but the premise is a bit of a stretch and Commander Riker's initial attitude toward his double struck me as a bit harsh although he can be demanding on subordinates. Conveniently resolved in the end with Thomas Riker.
Sat, Nov 4, 2017, 3:28pm (UTC -5)
Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 7:01pm (UTC -5)
Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 9:23am (UTC -5)
Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 10:23am (UTC -5)
Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 10:45am (UTC -5)
It’s not like anything bad happens to Will in this episode. If anything, it was a great way for him to realize he needed to commit to Deanna. If only the writers weren’t trying to ship Worf-Troi so badly, surely it would’ve happened season 7.
Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 10:57am (UTC -5)
Well in Up the Long Ladder he basically claimed that if he was cloned he would lose his soul. I guess the joje was on him - he lost it already. The spirit of his murdered clone must be laughing at the irony.
Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 11:22am (UTC -5)
The big difference here is that there was no “cloning” in the sense of it being a violation to Riker. Tom is also unique in that he shares all the experiences of Riker up until a little before the series started. So, it’s literally a great chance for Will to see what kind of person the Enterprise made him.
Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 9:08pm (UTC -5)
To be fair, in Up the Long Ladder, Riker is just the one who VOICES not wanting to be cloned. Picard then says that that is how most people on the Enterprise will feel and they arnt going to have success trying to clone Enterprise members
Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 11:25am (UTC -5)
RIKER: It's not a question of harm. One William Riker is unique, perhaps even special. But a hundred of him, a thousand of him diminishes me in ways I can't even imagine.
Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 12:00pm (UTC -5)
It would be interesting if they had that in mind, it might even give more meaning to a bad season 2 episode that desperately needs it.
"Up the Long Ladder" itself is partly about the diminishing capability of a race of people using the same stock from an ever-shrinking gene pool, so I think Riker's words were in line with that sentiment. Though, I'm not sure this episode ever addresses a point about Will Riker feeling like he's lost a part of himself now that he's found a duplicate. The story focused more Thomas Riker, who really has been diminished by another Riker taking his place in life.
Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:40am (UTC -5)
Mon, May 6, 2019, 11:01pm (UTC -5)
And if he'd accepted his first captain offer, he'd have gone from lieutenant to captain in less than four years.
Meanwhile, Data was a Lt. Commander from the moment we first met him until the moment he perished....fifteen years later.
Tue, May 7, 2019, 10:19pm (UTC -5)
I like Riker a little bit more after his great acting in that episode with the play where he was kidnapped. However, what an asshole he is here. His back story tells me he had a rough childhood with his mom dying and an asshole for a father. We have seen him struggle with relationships and his career. So I was willing to cut him some slack in his behaviour. But why is he (Commander) so nasty to himself (Lieutenant)? After they confirmed what happened and it wasn't a hoax, wouldn't he be curious about himself. maybe be kind? he has a twin now. Instead he acts like this is his most hated sibling. And it rubs off on the Lieutenant version as well.
I did enjoy seeing Troi and the Lieutenant connect. Crusher egging Troi on was pure useless Crusher. Ugh. Of course new Riker doesn't think of Troi's life at all, just wants her to join him.
Picard was funny picking the riskier database rescue option suggested by the new Riker. That data is so important it is worth risking their lives even though they haven't had it for 8 years and could try again in 8 years. I must have missed what the data was. Sometimes Picard can be such an asshole.
8/10 for the good parts. ha ha!
Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 1:38am (UTC -5)
Great idea with some interesting scenes, but poor execution.
Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 3:23pm (UTC -5)
This is a more mature but nevertheless reworked version of that story.
The eternal triangle was quite good but absolutely agree that Deanna just leaps at Worf next season only to lose him to Jadzia Dax in DS9-that Worf is a right tart isn't he?
I too cannot see why Will Riker has to be such a bung hole to what ,in effect, is a sort of long lost twin brother.
Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 9:06pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 11:40pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 12:22pm (UTC -5)
Sat, Apr 18, 2020, 2:51am (UTC -5)
That was some awkward-ass Tai Chi Troi and Crusher were doing, lol.
It's kind of funny that Freedom Riker is all angry, brooding, and sulking while Imprisoned Riker is vibrant, spontaneous, and fun. Riker #1 probably should have accepted one of those 2,927 command positions previously offered.
Pretty presumptuous of Riker #2 to assume Troi was still available after eight years when he first kissed her. Well, knowing Riker, he probably didn't care. Troi missed an opportunity for a really weird, sad, shameful threesome. The Rikers wouldn't be telling Dad about it.
If I met my unexpected twin, I'd want to join forces. I'd know we'd get along because he'd be thinking the same thing. We'd divide labor, arrange pranks, and set up a system of plausible deniability by constantly blaming the other one even though it was us all along.
Tue, May 12, 2020, 8:53pm (UTC -5)
Picard: "I see your point, doctor, but what would you have me do"?
Dr. Crusher: " I heard once about a transporter error reversal process used to put James Kirk back together on the old Enterprise, after he had gotten split in two. They used to talk about it in our 1st year Star Fleet Medical core lectures".
Picard: "Make it so"!
Of course, writers can do anything they want, so why not have the two Wills agree to go through the process, since both were obviously not very happy about their forced co-existence. When joined back together into the Riker in red we all know, he walks straight into Ten Forward and finds himself able to play the jazz riff he had found to be impossible before.
Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:42pm (UTC -5)
The two Riker's were interesting in how they interacted with each other. I would had expected Thomas to have a scraggly beard and be thin, but I guess eight years of replicator food can keep you fit as well adhering to Star Fleet personal grooming standards no matter what. You would think Will would cut his twin some slack after all that he's been through, but he was expected to toe the Star Fleet line regardless.
The relighting of the fire between Thomas and Troi wasn't that remarkable. She fell for Thomas and jumped into the sack with him just as easily as she does with every other visitor who shows her some attention. She forgot about him just as easily once he left the ship. Not sure why any staff officer would want to get married anyway. How could you be married and have time for a relationship while stuck aboard a ship for years? Or worse while being away from your spouse while the other is 100 light years away.
Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 9:00pm (UTC -5)
I believe it is common for married couples in Starfleet to serve on the same vessel (or station); we've seen a few examples. It's *not* the Navy. And they're typically only on duty for a third of the 'day,' with minimal commutes, so they should have plenty of time.
Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 4:35pm (UTC -5)
It's just such a thought-provoking, fascinating scenario - being confronted by someone with an equal claim to being you, as you. How would you react? How would you relate to yourself?
In this case, I think it would be absolutely intolerable for Lt Riker especially. Psychologically I suspect it would be impossible not to think of your replica as a copy, not the real thing. And in this case, Commander Riker has not only stolen his girlfriend and had his career and life, he's managed to split up with her. And of course the commander's very existence has guaranteed that no-one even knows that he existed, while he manfully survived 8 years of solitary existence on some distant planet.
What would make it doubly intolerable would be having your copy bark orders at you. Someone who knows every memory and thought you had for the first twenty-odd years of your life. But quite irrespective of the seniority disparity, simply knowing that there's another version of you somewhere, privy to your thoughts, inclinations, memories and so on would be extremely invasive.
The whole idea is so fascinating that I found this one really quite compelling.
The Bizarre Quasi Love Triangle with Deanna introduces a nice tension and gives us a ncie insight into Riker's past.
There are a few things wrong with this episode for sure. Lt Riker never really seems to get enough credit for surviving eight years on his own, and I have to wonder where he gets his hair cut and styled. I would think he'd look a bit more haggard.
Remembering how Scotty managed to save himself in a pattern buffer (or whatever) for 75 years in 'Relics', this episode offers the intriguing prospect that people could be backed up! So if you get killed on an away mission, no worries - just break out the backup copy.
That moment when Lt Riker is in grave danger is quite clever. The first time I saw this I probably expected him to be killed, for a convenient and neatly tied-up ending. So there's a nice bit of suspense there.
Really superb. Loved it.
Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 8:10am (UTC -5)
“And then what happened?” LOL, Beverly.
What follows are two very minor nitpicks (clearly they have to be minor indeed, since I give the episode a perfect four stars).
Those were some pretty rough looking apples in that bowl.
I’m with Lieutenant Riker. For supposedly Klingon exercises, those looked exactly like tai chi chuan.
Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 9:54am (UTC -5)
As a veteran poker player myself, I have a different take on this scene. There was of course the usual string betting that is always present in poker scenes on TV or in movies but would never fly at a casino, but would perhaps be tolerated in some home games. And Commander Riker made very strange, very small raises – I have never seen a poker game where it was legal to raise by less than the amount of the original bet, unless it was all you had left.
But other than that, there was some basic poker logic to what happened. The two players engaged in a betting/raising/reraising war. I don’t remember how many times it went back-and-forth, but every time Lieutenant Riker had the opportunity to be aggressive and raise, he did so. However, his last action was only a choice between calling and folding. He could no longer show aggression, because Commander Riker had already raised all in. At that point, Lt. Riker can only call if he has something decent and thinks Commander Riker is bluffing. Since he folded, we must assume that he was bluffing earlier, just as Cmmdr. Riker assessed. So it doesn’t matter how much Lieutenant Riker “wanted” to win, he just didn’t have the cards.
We can’t OTOH be absolutely sure what kind of cards Commander Riker had. Everything about the way he played it indicated that he was dealt something very strong at the beginning, a flush or a full house or maybe a straight. But it’s also possible that he decided to go on a massive bluff from the beginning of the hand without exchanging any cards, to try to make himself look very strong (it’s very rare in five card draw to get dealt such a hand right away, as you can see by the looks Data and Worf exchanged when he said he didn’t want to exchange any). If he was bluffing, it was quite the risky and bold power play, but it still doesn’t change the fact that Lieutenant Riker can’t call at the end because he himself was bluffing all along.
I suppose if Lieutenant Riker had a hand that was fairly weak but not absolutely nothing, like a single medium pair, he could have called if he felt fairly sure that Commander Riker was completely bluffing and did actually have absolutely nothing. But then Lt. Riker would look like a fool, a weak “calling station”, if he turned his cards over and Commander Riker did have good cards, just as he had represented throughout the hand.
WRT the question of why anyone in the hand would fold if they did not have real currency to play with, I always find this a strange viewpoint. Admittedly, even very good poker players take this perspective, that it is pointless to play poker for play money—which is the only thing legal for Americans to do in most states currently. And when you do play on PokerStars for play money, there are definitely people who seem to take that attitude, that they might as well just throw all the chips in every time because it’s just play money, who cares? But there are so many other games people play without betting on them, from bridge to Scrabble to Monopoly. What’s so special about poker, that you couldn’t play just to try to amass the most chips and be the winner? I don’t get that.
Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 4:04pm (UTC -5)
(and now you can make as many as you like is it really murder?).
Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 11:19pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:26pm (UTC -5)
Roddenberry had trouble initially selling ST cos so many in the industry at the time found it "too cerebral". And yet the best sci fi in any medium is cerebral and so is ST. It works best not with literal scenarios but one where metaphor and symbolism are the means of "telling the story".
And this episode succeeds because it does just that: of course we can laugh at the technological absurdity of a secondary transporter beam bouncing back to the ground and creating a second Riker in full. Geordie's technobabble explanation is laughable at best. But that's not the point of the episode.
The point is a psychological exploration of what constitutes self, identity, self-awareness, character traits, having to live with the consequences of our life decisions etc.
And the episode does this brilliantly. Dramatic tension is maintained, Sirtis' and Frakes' much maligned acting skills more than rise to the occassion here, and the narrative pace and character chemistry are top rate all the way.
It's incredible fun having two Rikers on screen, double the screen presence, Frakes is an incredibly sexy man on the screen, no matter how we assess his acting chops, the red and yellow uniforms playing visual and character counterpoints, and the sibling rivalry ( or is it "Brutus with himself at war"?) resolved so beautifully at the end with Will giving Tom his trombone, and the future of the romantic relationship at the centre of it all also remaining open ended.
This episode is brilliant and an exception to most of TNG because it does the opposite of what usually happens: instead of starting with a brilliant premise and butchering it in the execution, it takes a fairly silly one and elevates it to superb television viewing through great execution. Pity that the TNG iteration hasn't managed to do this more consistently.
And yes, what's with the dodgy apples in Troi's fruit bowl? Or is it the digital enhancement that makes such physical details fully noticeable?
Wed, May 5, 2021, 11:43am (UTC -5)
" I've just finished rewatching this one. Add me to the list of people shocked at how unpleasant Will was to Thomas."
There where a multitude of scenarios possible. Wills unpleasantnes was perhaps the price for this otherwise very good episode.
Also add me to the list where Will had been transferred and Tom stayed. That could have opend the way for many good A, B and C plots.
Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:05pm (UTC -5)
But I really like Krog's idea. Will finally gets promoted and Tom takes his place. There would have been so many good stories there. And then in the movies (like the Borg fight) it would have been great to have two Rikers.
Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 5:21am (UTC -5)
From the moment Dr. Crusher states that his early childhood brainwave patterns are identical to Cmdr. Riker's, Lt. Riker becomes a very interesting bit of SciFi Storytelling, transcending the gimmick. There is no fistfight between them. There is no "Oh but he's really evil" reveal. The episode doesn't take those shortcuts to drama, and it benefits as a result.
On the other hand, this episode never really gets past the awkwardness of the situation; it's not the episode's fault. It feels too short. In a way, transcending the gimmickry of previous Trek outings that have tried this idea, ended up sabotaging the episode a bit. 45 minutes isn't long enough to make the emotions generated by this seem real enough. I would be a LOT more freaked out to meet a Double of myself, who'd been stranded alone on a desert island for 8 years, and if I were the Double, I'd be A LOT more freaked out about having been ahem, STRANDED ALONE ON A DESERT ISLAND FOR 8 YEARS. And to wit, if I were my longtime girlfriend, I would imagine I would be losing my lunch.
This is all SUPER FREAKING AWKWARD, and the episode just plain doesn't have time to go into a discussion about it, or do a proper examination of the kinds of psychological issues at stake.
The fact that Data and Worf have to sum up the themes for us in the middle of the Data Retrieval Mission near the end speaks volumes about how this episode just couldn't be done in 45 minutes, but it had the cajones to try, and for that, I guess it does deserve 3 stars.*
*I will add an extra half-star just cuz seeing Gates McFadden hint to Deanna that she needs to get laid appeals to my personal feti---TASTES. Oh crap that's not any better.
... Dr. Crusher stan for life, step on me yas Queen OH GOD
(Beams out hastily)
Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 11:06pm (UTC -5)
Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 11:09pm (UTC -5)
That only reinforces the fact that anyone should be able to be cured of injury or disease by going through the transporter with their most recent healthy pattern.
Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 4:29am (UTC -5)
For another, though I am agnostic about the concept of a ‘soul’, I don’t believe that two versions of the same person could exist in the same time and space. That’s what the episode should have explored, instead of getting bogged down in relationship issues, and command tensions between the two Rikers. Though having said that, the technical issues of having Frakes interact with himself were done well, and convincingly.
When it comes down to it, it’s the weakness in the story, and the discarding of the sci-fi core, that badly lets this episode down. It should have been a truly great one, but ends up being on the mediocre side, not even rescued by an interesting conversation between Data and Worf about “interaction with doubles” (and they aren’t ‘doubles’ like identical twins, but the same person).
The poker scene was good (they always are!) but Lieutenant Riker was given an absurd parting line: “You always did have the better hands”. Uh? “Always”, how? They weren’t split in two until the Potemkin transporter malfunction 8 years before, and didn’t know of each other’s existence until 1? 2? days ago. So who is Lieutenant Riker addressing, and how do you account for this line? It would come naturally from a brother perhaps, but the two Rikers aren’t brothers, they’re the same person. There is no “always” for Lieutenant Riker to refer to.
The other troubling point is that there are now TWO Rikers in Starfleet. Uh? No way would this occur! Better perhaps if Lieutenant Riker had died in this episode, as I kind of thought he would. Do we really think Commander Riker would feel comfortable knowing there was another identical version of himself out there, getting up to who knows what?! Think of all the different women he would / wouldn’t meet…
Should have been better than 2.5 stars but a bit of a wasted opportunity.
1 Was Deanna wearing a wig in 10-Forward for the jazz concert? Her hair was stunningly good!
2 I really don’t think that the Klingon equivalent of Tai Chi Chuan would bear ANY resemblance to it!!
3 Frakes pronounces “route” the English way, i.e. ‘root’. So why don’t they allow Patrick Stewart to pronounce it that way too. Very very irritating.
Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 6:27am (UTC -5)
Riker and Riker 0.75 are not the same people since the transporter accident. I don't believe that we have a soul, meaning some kind of personal entity that defines us but just certain patterns in our brain. From my viewpoint Riker and Riker 0.75 became two different people, because their brain patterns changed in unique ways depending on their different experiences.
Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 9:24am (UTC -5)
Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 10:33am (UTC -5)
I think the issue of souls in regard to transporter technology is pretty moot in the first place. Every time you use the thing you're destroyed and a copy of you is made somewhere else. The question about your soul (which I think is brought up by Bones at some point maybe) is fundamental to the tech itself, and not so much to this episode.
Regarding two Rikers in Starfleet, I don't really see what the problem is. It's no different than if two identical twins entered Starfleet. The only issue is their name, and Thomas vs Will seems simple enough a solution.
About Riker's shock, personally I don't think you'd have as much shock as you think if you met your double (like gasps and heart palpatations). Most likely it wouldn't be such a big deal as one expects, just like so many things in life.
"You always had the better hand" must refer to their split paths for the last 8 years. Meaning that in any area where Will Riker is ahead of the game (higher in rank, happier, etc) Thomas was given a worse hand and can't seriously be able to compete now. The connective tissue is that there is a competitive thing between them, which we should expect from Riker by now. It's like a surrogate dad showing up, a male Riker to try to beat at life, and Thomas is hopelessly outmatched, which is probably super depressing.
1. Marina Sirtis always wore a wig for the gig anyhow. Troi's hair is not Sirtis' real hair.
2. Real Tai Chi doesn't use bat'leths!
3. Are you sure "root" is the English way? I thought it was the other way around. Also, within the U.S. there are huge variations in pronunciation anyhow (as well as in Canada), so it could be that both are used variously.
Sun, Nov 7, 2021, 10:42am (UTC -5)
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 1:59am (UTC -5)
Thanks for the update Pam - it’s interesting to note that in the next episode, Stewart says “root” - as if he’d heard Frakes and then had a quiet word with the producers!
@Booming @Top Hat @Peter G
I don’t think I believe in the “soul” as such, but I accept that consciousness exists and may be independent of the brain (all living creatures display it whether vast - as in humans and dolphins for example - or tiny, as with insects which have no brain). Can consciousness be duplicated? I don’t believe so, in which case Riker 2 has acquired new and independent consciousness. But how: where from? That’s one of the as yet unexplained factors of life. However, this is just a story and I guess we have to go along with Roddenberry’s own views and beliefs.
When Crusher and Troi were practicing Klingon Tai Chi, no batleths were involved! It just looked like normal Tai Chi.
When Thomas Riker said "You always had the better hand“ to Will, he may have been factually correct, but it’s not something he could possibly have known, and not something you’d say to a “new” acquaintance, even one that was a virtual double. He had no knowledge of Will’s experiences, choices, or situations over the previous 8 years, so had no reason or basis for saying it. It still seems poor writing to me.
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 8:22am (UTC -5)
Be it the katra or Chakotay's "neural energy" or whatever in "Cathexis," Star Trek does like the idea that there's a sense of personhood that exceeds embodiment. If one can accept this, I don't have a problem saying that it's in principle duplicable if the body is. That seems like a more parsimonious answer than having to account for two separate, new consciousnesses.
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 2:07pm (UTC -5)
A consciousness that exists independent of the brain is a soul, is it not? Since there's no credible evidence that consciousness can exist without a brain (or similar proto-brain organs), that makes the question of Tom Riker's consciousness simple. His brain was duplicated along with the rest of his body, so he "gets" a new consciousness that's copy of Will Riker's from the time of transport. There's no "where from" question to be answered. He has a human brain, thus he has a consciousness. It didn't have to be downloaded from somewhere like software copied to a blank hard drive. Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain itself, so there's nowhere else for it to come from.
Of course this then brings up the elephant in the room of transporters being suicide booths. They're not so much transporters as they are fax machines, scanning the original and reconstructing a copy on the other side. As far as that copy knows, the transport went on without a hitch. The original person getting into the transporter however just sees everything fade to black and then they're dead. The transported copy may still be you, but it's not the same you that you are. It's a big argument that may not be entirely possible to answer.
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 2:15pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 2:52pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 3:09pm (UTC -5)
So think root 66 vs. rowt this package. A rooter is a device that unclogs pipes (yes that's usually spelled rooter too, i.e. Roto-Rooter). A rowter is an electronic device that connects your computer to the internet, or a power tool that cuts a slot or profiled edge in wood. Some people use rooter for the electronic device, but I don't think the woodworking tool is ever called anything but a rowter.
Since it seems fairly interchangeable here in the Midwest, I never noticed or picked up on it either way. I do notice when someone pronounces sorry like story rather than starry. That's more of an upper Midwest Yooper and Canada thing. We all have our triggers.
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 4:14pm (UTC -5)
I think I'd prefer a shuttle, thank you very much.
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 10:13pm (UTC -5)
She too (@Pamelllaaa) preferred shuttle rides to transporter beams. Better have a hair with live follicle handy just in case!
Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 10:19pm (UTC -5)
Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 2:02am (UTC -5)
“A consciousness that exists independent of the brain is a soul, is it not?”
This is where semantics comes in. The word ‘soul’ carries a religious sense. Consciousness does not. I can quite easily divorce consciousness from religion (spirituality too) but not the concept of a soul that is “God given”.
“Since there's no credible evidence that consciousness can exist without a brain (or similar proto-brain organs)”
There’s no credible evidence for consciousness, full stop. The only evidence for it is our own subjective experience of it, and we therefore collectively agree that it exists. It’s never been scientifically seen, measured, quantified, or anything else.
“ Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain itself, so there's nowhere else for it to come from.”
That’s a belief statement. As consciousness cannot be seen or measured, there is no scientific evidence that it’s a property of the brain. Insects with no brain appear to display very very rudimentary conscious behaviour. Ultra-sophisticated and powerful computers that are leagues ahead of insects on the level of intelligence, have zero sentience.
My own belief - and that’s all it is, and all anyone’s stand on consciousness is - is that consciousness is not a property of the brain, but an inherent property of life. Which opens a whole new can of worms…
In the UK, it’s consistently “root”! As in Root 66, the root to success, and a rooter that connects us to the internet. It’s never “rowt”, which is how we pronounce the word “rout” as in ‘rout your enemy’.
Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 2:23am (UTC -5)
Your scientific evidence can't be seen, measured or quantified without being subjectively experienced.
Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 2:28am (UTC -5)
While I agree with most of your points, some things have to be added. Insects do have brains. Several actually. Their central nervous system might not be as complex but it certainly includes brains.
"There’s no credible evidence for consciousness, full stop. ... . As consciousness cannot be seen or measured, there is no scientific evidence that it’s a property of the brain. Insects with no brain appear to display very very rudimentary conscious behaviour. Ultra-sophisticated and powerful computers that are leagues ahead of insects on the level of intelligence, have zero sentience."
This statement seems contradictory. If there is no way of saying what consciousness really is or if it even exists then how can you say that computers don't have one?
Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 12:10pm (UTC -5)
"Your scientific evidence can't be seen, measured or quantified without being subjectively experienced. "
Not sure iii understand your point. Correction: I DON'T understand your point!
"This statement seems contradictory. If there is no way of saying what consciousness really is or if it even exists then how can you say that computers don't have one?"
It only "may not exist" in the sense that we can only experience it, not detect it. Which opens the door for weird constructs such as solipsism. However, most of us agree it exists because of our collective agreement that we experience sentience or self-awareness. As for AI this is where the Turing test has traditionally been invoked; the flaw with the test is that it is solely based upon whether a human being can detect AI during a 'conversation'. As no two people are the same, there may never be agreement on whether the test has been passed or failed. We need a more sophisticated version; if that sounds arrogant, I hasten to add that my intellect lumbers along at a fraction of Turing's! - but as AI is 1000 times more sophisticated than in Turing's time, I believe he would have come up with a better test long ago. But for now we can probably quite safely infer that no AI is self-aware.
Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 3:14pm (UTC -5)
You're basically saying that trees, or things without a brain or a nervous system, like sponges or ctenophores, are conscious. Most people would disagree with that.
IMO you're correct though. Even organisms with no brain or nervous system, "detect" things in the environment and "respond" in certain preset ways. People don't typically deem this "consciousness" because they seem to conflate sentience and self-consciousness.
IMO insects, humans and some computers are both conscious and sentient. They detect things and they respond to the things they detect. Much of this operates on the level of reflex (especially in pre-Mamalian brains). Some neuroscientists have even gone so far as to argue that machines as simple as thermostats are sentient because they can respond to sensed stimuli.
Humans, however, are a bit different. We have a concept of selfhood. We construct self models. We have the ability to imagine hypothetical situations and solve problems by use of mental simulation, which over millions of years led to our ancestors developing a sense of self - the nervous systems of our ancestors began mapping and modelling the world, and then inadvertently began mapping the organisms doing the mapping. With this self-reflexivity - modeling oneself relative to the environment and vice versa - we became enfolded within our own world models.
This then creates the illusion of hard will and an autonomous, sovereign self pulling strings. But it's more likely that we'll discover that this is all a kind of post-hoc rationalization of behavior happening on a level below intention; ie we're just like the thermostats, only in denial.
Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:53pm (UTC -5)
We must try to suppress all that ideational species equipment to begin with (but probably can't do it very well) to understand the extremely basic consciousness condition of organisms that function essentially to eat and propagate. As Locke might say, existing without ideas, and without reflection.
Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 1:49am (UTC -5)
I think Trent's point was that these simple lifeforms are not conscious but that they are sentient, meaning reacting to stimuli. A flower will orient itself towards the sun but that doesn't that it thinks:" Uhhh, sun! Shiny!."
Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 6:22am (UTC -5)
Thanks for the recalibration.
The distinction between sentience and consciousness is a useful one. Sentience at a minimum captures the idea that the flower will lean toward the sun but have no opinion about it. It can however "sense" the properties of sunlight and move in a taxic way to extract "more."
Trent, with a sense of irony (I think) brings in the idea that "some neuroscientists" have suggested that since thermostats react to stimuli, they are also sentient. I feel differently (from those neuroscientists) I believe that it is useful to maintain the distinction that "sentience" requires life. Consequently, a simple thermostat is not sentient. It does not feel as a living thing feels.
I admit that language itself (through casual usage that is) has come to incorporate a lot of blurry definitions --"sentience" particularly has been stretched to include more and more through the years (even "mind"). It confuses me... speaking as a thermostat who is in denial.
Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:06am (UTC -5)
The basic idea is very intriguing and thought-provoking, and this could've been a fantastic episode. It had amazing potential. The characters' very improbable conduct as well as the super-convenient (non-)resolution in the last 90 seconds, however, hugely compromise the quality of the final product. The Riker double-act and Troi particularly disappointed. Their reactions to the circumstances and to each other made zero sense.
Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 2:42pm (UTC -5)
Commander Riker never cut Lieutenant Riker any slack at all, in any scene. It was hard to watch and also felt very misplaced.
Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 3:40pm (UTC -5)
Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 4:18pm (UTC -5)
Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 5:01pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Jan 27, 2023, 2:37pm (UTC -5)
He can be reminded of things he likes about himself that he's since lost, or things about himself that he doesn't like. In The Best of Both Worlds he was talking to Deanna:
"The Captain says Shelby reminds him of the way I used to be. And he's right. She comes in here full of drive and ambition. Impatient, taking risks. I look at her and I wonder whatever happened to those things in me? I liked those things about me. I've lost something."
SkepticalMI brought this up back in 2014. The dynamic between Will and Tom is very similar to the dynamic between him and Shelby, and for a lot of the same reasons.
Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 11:02pm (UTC -5)
Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 1:55pm (UTC -5)
Submit a comment
◄ Season Index