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Landon Haynes
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 8:26am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Destiny

Worf: All our gods are dead. Klingon warriors killed them long ago. - DS9 ssn 4, Homefront
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 8:17am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Justice

@Peter G:

Thanks for replying.

“but the flaw in the episode isn't that the Federation stomped on local law. ”

It is however one of the flaws. The Federation has no right to come in and impose their laws on a planet and a people not under their lawful rule, to which they are strangers. They should have complied with the Edo’s laws.

This could have been a good episode, exploring the tension between the two, but it was mishandled, so the exploration, which could have been very creative, was incompletely realised.

As for the responsibility you refer to - in a better version of this episode, it could have been explored. The defence you make for Wesley might not convince the Edo.
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Dave in MN
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 8:12am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

This episode was not very good at all, but I guess anything can look like a rose if it's surrounded by shit.
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 7:38am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother


As many on this board know, I loathe S01 with every fibre of my being. Just about everything about it. The only indifference I've shown so far — as it relates to STD — is the shorts.

S01E02 of STD, for me, is a mixed bag at best. So let's get the thing I hate about it out of the way first.

• SMG. She still can't act her way out of wet paper bag. She manages *every* time to ensure I couldn't give the slightest shit about her character, and leaves me wishing her character would get killed off;

• For the love of all of our mothers, please, please, *please* stop it with the superficial fan service to try and convince us that STD is Genuine Trek™. For the eagle-eyed and -eared among us, the alert notification graphic on the top right of the main viewer is lifted straight out of TMP/TWOK, and most of the bridge sound effects come out of a TNG/DS9/VOY sound pack. Just. Stop. It.

• Tony Stark designed Starfleet's space suits. I'd like to remind all of you that every space suit from TOS straight to VOY (with the all the films in between) didn't have magically-appearing helmets. People actually had to put them on the old-fashioned way. This Iron Man stuff was just bull shit.

• The 23rd century version of Geordi LaForge's VISOR made an appearance in Discovery's transporter room. Ugh. Come on ...

• STD still wants to be an action series;

• I'm not sold on this Reno character. How many more sarcastic, curmudgeonly characters does this show actually need?

• Michael Fucking Burnham. I want her gone.

• Ensign Tilly, I'm afraid. She's just a female Wesley Crusher, and no less irritating for it;

• Sarek. He leaves me completely bored;

• Enterprise's redesign. There was absolutely no valid reason under the sun for this;

• The overall look and feel of the show. Still.

For all of that though, there were a couple of things I liked ... for once:

• Stamets. It took me a while, but he's really the only character in this show I give even the remotest shit about, until now;

• Anson Mount as Pike. If there's one thing I'm 100% sold on with this show, it's this. Casting him as Pike was a stroke of genius, and it's clear he's totally into the role. He may actually single-handed make this show semi-watchable;

• I don't know if it was fixed in post, but the bit at the end with Peck's voice as Spock was notable. I definitely heard notes of Nimoy's voice in there, and I'll say it caught me by surprise. I still don't agree with Spock being in this show to begin with, but — so far — I'm not disagreeing with Peck's execution of the character, even though it was voice-only this time around.

• The overall plot might have potential, but it's too early to tell. Still, I'm not happy with the 'fate of the whole galaxy is at stake' thing. Again.

I'll be generous, and give this thing 1.5 stars. Out of 5.
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Black Jesus
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 7:20am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

Ha! The Orville did the whole season 1 of Discovery in one episode. Seth owes them some money lol
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 7:04am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

Ok if nobody will say it I will: Go Go Power Rangers!
"Guys we have to gown down to that asteroid. Here are your new shiny space suits."
Does the Discovery have it's own uniform style or does the Enterprise? That confused me a little. Blue or like in TOS.
And because everbody gives it a star rating.
I'm giving it 7 out of 11 stars. Or maybe 9 out of 15.
I think that was an ok beginning.
Oh and is every room a holodeck now??
I am very worried how this whole angel thingy will turn out.
@midshipman: I saw the actress once in a community episode as a bartender.

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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 6:43am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

I'm settling on 2.5 – it's flashy as hell, all sound and fury, but nothing that happens makes any sense. Saru is solid as usual, and actually Sonequa is fine – I feel like she's settled into the role better and is more confident and assured. Low points were the action sequence with the pods, which was total nonsense, and Tig Notaro's incredibly wooden performance. I complained in S1 about Tilly being too broad and it was even more the case in this episode. None of her scenes worked or were funny (or at least sympathetic), they were all just really awkward, as was the elevator scene. Stamets still isn't working at all as a character, and the Spock material isn't working for me either (the scenes of him as a child were laughable and cringeworthy). Pike was OK, but I'm concerned that they're gonna do a Lorca on him – I have a bad feeling that being the captain of Discovery is like being the defence against the dark arts teacher at Hogwarts...

Still 2.5 despite all the above issues because this is incredibly professionally produced, well paced and acted, and very much a first chapter.
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 5:19am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

@Karl Zimmerman
"I find it very implausible that two people in their situation - one of which professes to hate the other person, and the other of which found out they were horribly betrayed only five minutes before - would be able to trust one another under any circumstances"

I don't think either of them really trusted one another on the emotional level. Refraining from killing a person who may well be your only hope for survival is hardly the epitome of trust. I'm also pretty sure that Talaya wouldn't have hesitated to kill Ed if it weren't a Union Shuttle that rescued them.

So basically, Talaya had just enough doubt in her beliefs to allow Ed the chance to save them both. As for Ed, he really *really* emotionally invested in giving Talaya the benefit of the doubt. He also had a gun pointed to his face, so he had nothing to lose by clinging to this hope.

Given what we already know about these two characters from season 1, I actually find this development to be quite plausible.
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Tim C
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 4:25am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

Three stars!

As with the high points of season 1, "Brother" does action adventure better than its television predecessors were ever able to pull off, thanks to a combo of high budget, two decades of CGI improvments, and a longer production time. Less positively, and also like season 1, though, is a lack of thoughtful character moments to elevate the action into something we're truly invested in, instead of just thrilled by.

Tig Notaro was great. Anson Mount is shaping up to be a fantastic Captain (and geez, they are digging themselves a hole by dint of canon - Pike can't be on this show for too long before he has to go back to the Enterprise, and we'll have to adapt to another new leader). Making sure there was a Starfleet science nerd angle to the asteroid chase is also a good sign.

Hopefully, the long-term arc of the season is going to allow for the show to give us more one-off adventures in the classic Star Trek mold and give the characters a bit more time to breathe between spectacular action scenes, moreso than the Klingon/Mirror stuff did last year.
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 4:23am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

I mistakenly submitted my previous comment before completing the final paragraph. It was supposed to read:

I'll take "obnoxious with overt morality" over "no morality what-so-ever" any day. Agreed that Classic Trek was often too preachy and could sometimes benefit from being subtler, but at least it had a positive vision for the future.
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 4:21am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion


"Discovery is basically repurposing star trek for a new generation, it has to be faster and flashy than the old shows because that is what can sell in tv nowadays with so much competition."

Even the guys at CBS no longer believe that, which is why they've completely changed the tone for Discovery Season 2.

"And the complaints about this show being SJW..."

Nobody on this thread ever complained about that. Funny, how the only people here who are using the term "SJW" at all, are those who complain about these non-existent complaints. You're like the 5th person here who did that.

"(and man, star trek has always been obnoxious with their overt morality, looks at trills in next generation, and every episode with their issues)."

I'll take "obnoxious with overt morality" over "no morality what-so-ever" any day.
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 4:08am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Lonely Among Us

A planet named Parliament ? Sorry, but I just can’t take that seriously. And why is an android posing as a fictional detective ?

2 stars. mostly because the aliens were interesting enough to prevent the silliness completely ruining the episode.
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 3:49am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

I'm conflicted on this one.

On the one hand, it has a great premise and it is an exceptionally tight story. On the the other hand, just like "Primal Urges", this episode had serious pacing issues. What is it with Bragga and pacing issues? Last season's "Into the Fold" also had this problem.

It's really strange how the quiet episodes like "Home" and "Ja'loja" could keep me riveted every single moment, yet action-packed "Fishes" had me bored half of the time. All in all, not sure how to rate this one. It's either a high 2.5/4 or a low 3/4. I'll probably decide on one of them, after we see how they callback on the events of this epiosde

Also, I wonder what kind of trees this planet has, that can withstand the boiling temperatures of high-noon on this 800-hour day planet.
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 2:49am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S3: Rise

I originally hated this episode but having recently rewatched it found it wasn’t as bad as I thought

It’s entertaining enough and I loved the idea of a species using natural disaster to conquer a world. Some of the neelix stuff is annoying but not as bad as I recall

I just think coming so soon after the Borg episode anything would be a let down
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 2:31am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

I haven't seen the episode itself (I'm not ready to give CBS my money yet) but I'll say this much:

It is obvious that Kurtzman is trying to rectify many of the mistakes that were done in season 1. Finally "Discovery" is actually... well... discovering, instead of lense-flaring and advocating war crimes. They also got rid of those ridiculous monsters they called "klingons" in season 1. And while I normally don't like gratuitous fan service, I think that having Pike as our new "resident Captain" is an excellent idea.

Still weary because... well, Kurtzman. But at least they now have the basics right.

By the way,

I'm really *really* interested to see what those Trek veterans who disliked season 1 (like Dom and Peter and Grumpy Otter) have to say about this episode.

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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 1:37am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

This episode gives a giant middle-finger to "Discovery". In a mere 40 minutes it does better with its Tyler/Krill plot what "Discovery's" Tyler/Klingon plot took an entire season to botch.

The differences between the two approaches are also interesting. Disco's Tyler was a human who essentially got hijacked by a Klingon, his personality split between Federation utopianism and a hyper religiously conservative Klingon. He falls in love with the female lead.

Orville does the opposite: its Tyler is a Krill who hijacks a Union human, her personality split between Union utopianism and a hyper religiously conservative Kill. She falls in love with the male lead.

"Discovery's" Tyler isn't a real Klingon, so love-bombing him with Gene Roddenberry hippie vibes is a bit pointless from the Federation's point of view. His arc mostly serves to teach Michael to love Klingons, even though he isn't really a Klingon, and even though, as a social scientist and Vulcan, she shouldn't be taking Klingon aggression so personally anyway.

In "Orville", Ed and the Union aren't racist crazies like "Discovery's" Federation, so they don't need to learn what Michael learns. The Gene Roddenberry hippie vibes flow the other way instead. Ed teaches the Krill that being space hippies might be a little bit more compassionate, moral and selfishly pragmatic (and even religious/spiritual) than their (religious) warmongering.

Or at least lays the first steps in this direction. It's a very Picard thing to do. And it unfolds in a very Picard way; no fuss, just a kind of moral clarity.

And of course aesthetically the episode is the complete opposite of "Discovery". Where Disco goes for elaborate pyrotechnics and "drama", Orville strips things down to something more intimate: 2 characters in a cave.
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William D Wehrs
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 1:25am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

Let's start with the positive shall we? The visuals are excellent and the music is quite nice. Especially the working in of the two musical themes.

Ok, now that that's over with, let's look at the missteps. What was the point of the character, Connelley who was incredibly obnoxious. Was he just there to die? That's just mean spirited writing. There is also an abundance of jokes, most of which for me at least don't land at all. There is also the ludicrous roll-call scene which the writers clearly thought helped serve to "flesh out" the bridge crew. It doesn't though. We still don't know anything about these people. Also, Discovery had better provide a good reason why Spock is such a petulant brat from the very beginning towards Burnham. Overall, I can see this show is trying to rectify its prior mistakes, but it still has a long way to go.
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Nicholas Sergi
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 12:35am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

So, uh.. they warp to this place they've NEVER been before they plan on having Sarek disembark.??? Where is he gonna go?
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Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 12:30am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

Whatever flaws it may have, this episode at least tries to capture the beauty of nature, the wonder of strange planets and cityscapes, the quiet majesty of moonlit night skies, the thrill of buzzing over oceans in your sun-kissed hover-pod, or running across a beach on an alien unicorn-horse-thingie. Too few works of TV scifi reach for the sublime.

The lonely homestead in this episode also reminded me of the home at the beginning of TOS' "Conscience of the King". The episode also had one neat visual: the incongruity of Ed in his sealed-off suit, which clashes with the home and its open-air inhabitants. It's a nice juxtaposition.
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William D Wehrs
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 12:21am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

Loved this episode with my one quibble being that we could have used a little more time with Lt. Tyler and her romance with Mercer. Nevertheless, teally appreciated the time devoted to humanizing the enemy in a way the first season of Discovery never really did. This was the Orville at its best, and I really hope the ratings improve.
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Thu, Jan 17, 2019, 11:09pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

"Now this is more like it." Those were the opening words of Janet Maslin's review of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. She, like many others, found Star Trek: The Motion Picture to be an unsatisfying movie.

And Discovery last year (in its first year, which, if one tries to be objective about it, was still much better than TNG season 1) certainly had unsatisfying components: a plot that yanked the viewer around like a rag doll (the viewer is the rag doll here, not the plot), little mini-arc storylines for indiividual members of the crew that did not connect to the bigger picture (what bigger picutre? is a good question), or even to what their own pictures appeared to first look like; and bucketsfull of moments in each episode when the music, the special effects, the editing, the urgency of the actors' voices, were pitched at a tone that oozed the vibe of "Either it's the end of the universe of this moment or it's not." When every moment comes down Broadway sold as if the fate of nations depended on it, no moment is actually really urgent.

Most significant in the dissatisfaction column, for this viewer anyway, is not that Discovery did not "feel like Star Trek" (I still don't know what that means) - but that the show did not feel like it was chronicling the adventures of a group of people working as a team or as a group of souls working toward a common end (Season 1 sure used the word "souls" and "team" a lot, perhaps a product of the writers' crutch, "If you can't show, just tell." Stories were populated by individuals (and a very small group of them, as well), who weren't discovering. They were speechifying, killing, then contradicting themselves by saying killing is wrong - they were being moved as pieces on the writers' chessboard - a board which, if rumor is to believed, was smashed and then hastily glued back together more than once, with the departure of producers and writers (and can anyone tell me what happened to Nicholas Meyer?)

No one is going to mistake Alex Kurtzman the producer for Irving Thalberg; Kurtzman the director for Orson Welles; or Kurtzman the writer for Ben Hecht (and all of the people who think he is the worst kind of hack who then claimed to be SHOCKED that he turned out what these people call "garbage," please get a grip) - just as no one did at the relevant time mistake Gene Roddenberry the producer for Thalberg or Rick Berman for Francis Ford Coppola. These men were mortals too - perhaps sometimes highly competent hacks, but hacks. (Having real sf writers write for TOS was a great thing, but real sf authors - as in authors of published literature - have not graced the writers of a Star Trek room since.... I don't know when).

So, viewed through the lens of sane expectations and a history that actually took place, how did the first episode of Season 2 hold up? Pretty well. The amorphous, can't be proven right, can't be proven wrong refrain of, "This doesn't feel like Star Trek," when drilled down to its basic components, I think, comes to 3 components: Are we watching 1) a group of people all with their specific flaws and strengths 2) working together in pursuit of a shared goal 3) as they are traveling through space?

"Brother" was a winner because the answer is yes to all three.

This episode was the first in which I felt I was watching a group of people whom one would expect to behave and communciate with each other as if they'd actually been in each other's presence for any length of time. Characters talked to each other non-expositorily, finally. When Stamets told Tilly to recite, "I will speak less," and told her about his job offer, and how he missed Hugh, what I saw was not any of these points being fed to us for the sake of estabishing a character, finally (that was the problem with the 2012 Les Miserables movie; each character would essentially get on screen and have his or his own song, consisting of "This is who I am and this is what I do," and would essentlally sing that one note for the rest of the movie). I saw less "dialogue" and quite simply, more interaction, that did not keep announcing itself as such. I saw building upon prior events and characters reflecting on those prior events, without (the screenwriters) having to tell us yet again exactly what those events were and why they were so important. Even the new characters were given things to say that one would expect to be actually said in a workplace undergoing a particuar point in its development (Pike having each member of the crew announce his or her last name. if this was a writers' mea culpa, I'll take it). The new characters, including a certain comic, also seemed to have a sense of humor. The lines reflecting the humor did not feel forced. These lines were said at the tail end of other lines, or in the middle of them, not as their own punchlines because the writers couldn't show humor and humanity as one, at the same time. Nice.

2) There was a sense of actual working to pursue a shared goal. And unlike last year, the goal was articulated clearly to the audience, and did not vanish in favor of a different A-story or wilt on the vine to die (like the planet Pahvo, with respect to which Episode 8 promised a certain centraility in episode 9 - only to have it and its inhabitants ignored in favor of the latest zap arbitray crisis of the moment forced us to make us forget about how contrived the last one was). When the word "Starfleet" was uttered, what we were shown was a recognizably Starfleet crew, with "Starfleet" actually meaning something as opposed to being a writers' pawn that one day stood for peace and another for genocide. There was no narrative fixed Star in season 1 through which events and actions could be evaluated by the viewer; "Brother," in contrast, had a definable, coherent beginning, middle, and end, and if it were a train ride, it felt at the end as if it had reached a destination that was on the same branch as the initial stop (as opposed to making you wonder if the station had at some point been obliterated and replaced by a town without a train).

3) Finally, we saw actual travel through space, from point A, to B, to C, where the viewer could spatially/logistically follow the travel. Discovery felt like it was... discovering, and the show did not play as if the characters were ahead of the plot, behind it, or just plain dumbfounded. The plot played at the same "speed" as the characters' actions. Last season (take episode 8, for example, where L'Rell pretends to kill the Admiral then pledges allegiance to Kol and then is identified as a traitor - a sequence of events which must have actually required a thought process but felt as if it played out in confusingly real time) suffered from a lack of rhythm, lack of pitch, proper dynamics, you name it. Someone attempted to make "Brother" not only to be watched, but to be understood. Thank goodness
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Thu, Jan 17, 2019, 11:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Rapture

@William B

I liked the Winn parts very well, especially her confrontation with Kira, but also her move to accept Sisko as the Emissary.

Fletcher is great in the role, outstanding performance.

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Karl Zimmerman
Thu, Jan 17, 2019, 10:50pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

I'll admit I did have a bit of a brain fart and forgot Ed initially had her at gunpoint. However, I don't see what that changes. Her ship was boarded by a hostile force which was certainly going to kill her and destroy the ship anyway. She could have taken the calculated risk that Ed wouldn't shoot her and just ran away - particularly given she knew him pretty well at that point, and he isn't the kind of person to shoot someone in the back. Regardless, he clearly was distracted by the time she got to the escape pod. The way the show was constructed they only could have escaped together, but I find it very implausible that two people in their situation - one of which professes to hate the other person, and the other of which found out they were horribly betrayed only five minutes before - would be able to trust one another under any circumstances. I mean, Ed has a hard time moving past his ex-wife boning other people, but he's able to quickly compartmentalize the hurt and betrayal here and just be an action hero?
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Thu, Jan 17, 2019, 10:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

Karl, I’m confused by your comment. You didn’t catch that Ed had a gun on her when they were going to the escape pod?
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Karl Zimmerman
Thu, Jan 17, 2019, 10:34pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

I honestly wasn't feeling this one as much as last week. Both the A plot and the B plot seemed to be somewhat...contrived.

The whole thing with "crewman Tyler" was obviously some sort of reference to Discovery's first season. People were predicting it as of the season premier because they reused the same actress. I was honestly hoping for a bit more of a slow burn along several episodes. Regardless, while I could see what was going to happen from a mile away, the story beats were rather predictable. Barring that is one head-scratching moment - why she saved Ed when the ship was under attack, rather than just leaving him to die and finding her own escape pod. At first I figured that perhaps she still believed he had actionable intelligence, but since she initially intended to kill him as soon as she was rescued from the planet that wasn't the case. Maybe it was - as Ed said - just because she wasn't faking it as much as was suggested. I did like the conclusion of the episode - their continued attempts to humanize the Krill as individuals even as the culture itself remains a cartoon - but it didn't make up for this really badly plotted twist mid story. It would have been much better if she was somehow knocked out and he rescued her and dragged her into a life pod.

As for the B plot, it was nice for Gordon to finally get some development since Season 1 treated him solely as a joke character and didn't really ever give him a plot of his own. That said, it sort of felt perfunctory on the part of the show, and like it was sort of came out of left field rather than being a logical development of the character.

2.5 stars.
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