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Gerontius
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 8:54am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

You can't abolish having headaches. But you can stop giving yourself a headache by banging your head on the wall.

There's nothing inevitable about stuff like racism. It gets drummed into people by the society in which they live.
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James White
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 8:14am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Jason R

A "higher state of being" is not the same as a utopian, or perfect, state of being. Booming's point relates to the overall vision of the future, not whether certain, imperfect components of this vision still exist. What's more interesting is whether Gene himself would gravitate to a more flawed vision of our future, were he still alive today.
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Bold Helmsman
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 8:12am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Brad Hinds
Speaking for myself, I have no problem with optimism in Star Trek, or in any kind of media at all. What I have an issue with people behaving as if any version of Star Trek that does not show the Federation as a utopia where humans have outgrown their baser natures isn't really Star Trek.
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Jason R.
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 7:01am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

"We are living in sad times when people are apparently incapable of even imagining a future were humanity has achieved a higher state of being."

For the record, apparently even Gene Rodenberry couldn't imagine it either, certainly not in the original series. There were numerous examples in TOS of greed, corruption, prejudice, being very much alive in human societies. It was only in Season 1 of TNG that we saw the rainbows and unicorns version of this with godawful episodes like The Neutral Zone or The Last Outpost. And this nonsense died with Season 1, rightly so. Indeed, now that I think of it, even in Season 1 they weren't committed to this - remind me, what species were the rape gangs on Tasha's homeworld?

And yeah, it's hooey to imagine a world where humans, who basically talk, act and think like 20th century people, absent genetic engineering, have somehow manufactured a society where "greed" and "bigotry" are abolished. This isn't just utopian; it's IMPOSSIBLE. It's akin to abolishing headaches a la that ridiculous comment by Crusher in The Battle.
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gooz
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 6:29am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

An almost perfect episode. The only thing missing, and something I'm hoping will be addressed in later episodes, is to establish as fact and canon that a divorced Keiko was living on Utopia Planitia with her new husband (Neelix) when it was attacked and that they died horrific, painful deaths. This would be a great backstory for bringing back Miles, unhampered by his annoying wife. Having the promise of no more Neelix would be bonus.

Also, super happy that no Klingons made it to this episode. I'm so over their BS culture and HONOR!, especially after DS9 and Discovery.
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Trent
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 5:55am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

The choice to veer away from Roddenberry's hyper-idealistic vision has always been a choice by individual writers who philosophically, politically or artistically hated or felt strangled by the vision. And its always been an unnecessary choice; any episode can make its same point without the Federation being portrayed as corruptible or corrupted.

I've always found it more imaginative and skillful to write a good, dramatic script which bought in fully to Roddenberry at his most idealistic.

Another irony is that writers who buy into Roddenberry's vision, and respect it, have a tendency to write "battle for the soul of the Federation!" scripts which celebrate this vision; so for decades now you've had the Federation dirtied up to make the point that it's cleanliness is something worth celebrating. But you don't get much scripts wallowing in this idealism, or treating it as a given, or treated as something so normal, logical and normalized as to be banal.
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Cinnamon
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 5:46am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: The Collaborator

BBC AMERICA is running DS9 now.

Winn always makes me angry because she is so grasping and a liar. She brings Kubis in to lie about Bariel and Kira is her ususal oh so HOLY self and she turns on Bariel because of their lies.

AND, thru the entire years on t.v. no one ever finds out what a savage criminal Winn is! She deserved her ending IN hell fire in WHAT YOU LEAVE BEHIND.

The Bajoran people were just ignorant when it came to their leaders.

Where does the idiocy that THE people vote a Kai into office? What if all Catholics could vote in the Pope? That would be a mess.

Bariel should have given up on Kira as a lover.

Oh. as for Kubis: Winn knew exactly who to go to in order to get help for ruining Bariel. Even though Opaka was the guilty party, I betcha that Winn knew all about it.
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Gerontius
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 3:09am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

There is no inconsistency between hoping , or even believing, that if we could change the way things run in ways that drive us to act worse than we really are, we might escape some of the terrible ways we can behave towards each other would be less likely to emerge, and accepting that we won't be flawless.

Out ancestors died in their thousands from smallpox. The idea of a world in which it was no more would have seemed crazy, it would have been called "utopian" in the sense that it was impossible. And yet that's the world we live in. And of course that doesn't mean that there won't be other diseases to deal with, and fresh diseases.

The idea of a society where medical treatment is available to everybody for free would have been seen as cloud cuckoo land by my ancestors, and it still is in many places - but I live in a society where we have that. And of course that doesn't mean things are perfect - we have delays sometimes and people, make mistakes and so forth. When I needed a quadruple heart bypass a few years ago the one thing my family didn't need to worry about was finding the money to pay for it to be done.
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Booming
Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 2:10am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Have you seen Star Trek?? Do you know what Star Trek is??
Star Trek is a vision of the future created by Gene Roddenberry. In this vision humanity has grown past such things as greed or racism or serious interpersonal conflict. It was created as a positive vision of the future were our goals are technological advancements, peace and understanding.

The Federation portrayed in Picard has barely anything in common with that. Of course, you can say that Roddenberry is naive or an idiot for thinking that humanity could so fundamentally change it's ways that it basically becomes incapable of racism or other negative impulses but that was the vision he had.

What you want is not Star Trek. What you want is the fucked up version that writers whose names we don't remember developed after Roddenberry's death because they found it dumb or limiting. These writers don't have a grand vision of the future. They just want to write interesting stories.

Look at this quote from Ronald D. Moore: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that."
He always felt that this was a bunch of hooey...

The moment Roddenberry died they started to rip Star Trek apart and turned it into some gritty reflection of the present more similar to Battlestar Galactica than actual Star Trek.

We are living in sad times when people are apparently incapable of even imagining a future were humanity has achieved a higher state of being.
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Brad Hinds
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 11:25pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Has anyone actually posited a serious argument that the Federation is or should be "rainbows and butterflies"? I find this questionable at best and reminds me of Sisko's equally specious remark in DS9 that Earth in the 24th century is a paradise.

I find it strange how some of you are quite hostile to even the faintest sense of optimism or idealism, especially the kind exemplified throughout Trek. What is it about it that triggers you so?
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Bold Helmsman
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 11:11pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Dave in MN
Problem is, that 1% represents the very top of Starfleet, the guys who are shaping policy and have widespread discretion to do as they please. They have power that is wildly out of proportion with their numbers.

@Quincy
Amen. I really hope people will stop with the whole "Sekrit Klub" nonsense, but like those other stupidities you mentioned, it'll be with us forever, I suppose.
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Brad Hinds
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 11:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@ovaduh

On the contrary, I would argue that Trek has explained quite convincingly how greed has been - well, I wouldn't say eliminated because that would be a stretch, but certainly tempered. For one, the humans of the 24th century live in a post-scarcity society in which everything they could need or want is readily accessible. How would greed as we perceive it even manifest in such an environment?

@Quincy

How dismissive and myopic. Human failings are not immutable. They are not fundamentally encoded in our DNA - they emerge from the many inadequacies and imperfections of our socio-economic structures. Who are you to say that in a future as depicted in Star Trek where the nature of those structures has shifted radically would not also radically change humans and for the better?
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ovaduh
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 8:41pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Nicholas Meyer recounted a story where Gene Roddenberry erupted after a screening of Star Trek VI (it may have been a different Roddenberry eruption but I can’t recall); Roddenberry was in disbelief that his beloved Star Trek characters were racist. Meyer said this is as it should be because 1) nothing in real-life history or logic suggests humans will evolve past racism; and 2) Trek itself never explained how it became that greed and bigotry were eliminated; how humans no longer succumbed to revenge; and how money no longer motivated them and instead humans just decided to work for the betterment of humanity. Picard shows that recognizable human behavior persists into the 24th century and has been criticized on those grounds. Please.
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Quincy
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 8:08pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Bold Helmsman

Glad someone else referred back to this. This absurd notion that the Federation is supposed to be all rainbows and butterflies and any story that deviates from that rosy picture is somehow bankrupt needs to stop.

Unless humans change fundamentally into something other than human by way of either genetic evolution or genetic engineering then these dangers of xenophobic hysteria and other stupidities will ALWAYS be with us.

Only ETERNAL vigilance as Picard indicates in TNG's Drumhead will keep it in check and prevent opportunists from taking control. It's an ongoing struggle that will never end, until humans end. Anybody claiming anything else is full of it.
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Dave in MN
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 7:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

A few Section 31 officers and a dozen admirals out of how many hundreds of Federation characters over the many series?

Yeah, I'm comfortable saying 1% (or less) of all the Federation officials we saw over 700+ episodes were "bad".
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Gerontius
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 7:25pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

I don't understand that this notion that the Federation or Starfleet has ever been seen as perfect, which is what is evidently meant when people use the term "utopian" here.

Actually "utopian" has never meant perfect, just better. Compared to previous times the way we live today could be seen as "utopian", but we all know they are a long way short of anything like perfect ( and in some ways worse rather than better). But we have got rid of a lot of really nasty stuff that must have seemed would be there for ever. And yet, as this Star Trek reminds us that can't be taken for granted.
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Bold Helmsman
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 7:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Dave in MN
So Section 31 can run around without transparency, and there can be what, dozens of shady admirals in Starfleet but refusing to help refugees is where you draw the line about what Starfleet officers can tolerate? Those things don't exist in a vacuum, you know? If Starfleet was as utopian as people think, those shady admirals would have been drummed out long ago.

@Quincy
I was thinking of The Drumhead myself after watching that episode. I'm going to recommend all my Trekkie friends watch that one before watching Picard.
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Daniel
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 5:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S5: The Next Phase

Hmm....if they are "phased out" ... what are they breathing? How does their phased-out diaframs suck that regular, in-phase air?

Seems relevant... the romulan goon was, after all, dispersed into space "choking" ....
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Gerontius
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 4:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Defensive, Boomer? Hardly, that surely implies feeling under attack. I was merely commenting on the tendency we can sometimes have to think that gaps in what we have been told have to indicate something, when at most they leave room for speculation. It's a tendency that reading detective stories can encourage in us, and it's one of the key ways detective story writers set out to mislead us.

I liked Drea's point about how, in some ways, what we see as the fall from grace of the Federation and Starfleet in regard to the Romulan refugees still leaves them far ahead of our societies in ethical terms.

Cynicism about the possibilities of making things better may be a fashion, but in no way is it a necessary response to a recognition that in someways things might be getting worse. I'd like to hope that Picard might help in redeeming the time.
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Yanks
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 4:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Great review Jammer.

As to the Romulan spiting that green burning goo stuff... you see him bite what appears to be like the old cyanide tablets from the cold-war days just before he spits.

So many questions and a whole season of 'Picard' to reveal them!! :-)
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Quincy
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 2:55pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

I'll just leave this here:

"Am I bothering you, captain?"
"No, please Mr. Worf, come in."
"It is over. Admiral Henry has called an end to any more hearings on this matter."
"That's good."
"Admiral Satie has left the Enterprise."
"We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. And then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly, it threatens to start all over again."
"I believed her. I-I HELPED her! I did not see what she was."
"Mr. Worf, villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged."
"I think, after yesterday, people will not be so ready to trust her."
"Maybe. But she or someone like her will always be with us, waiting for the right climate in which to flourish – spreading fear in the name of righteousness. Vigilance, Mr. Worf. THAT IS THE PRICE WE HAVE TO CONTINUALLY PAY."

- Worf and Picard, The Drumhead
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Peter G.
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 2:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Rocks and Shoals

I was thinking about it just now and realized there may be another parallel connecting the A and B stories. When the Federation crew crashes and sets up camp in the cave, IIRC they're joking about the hotel-like accomodations they've now got. They're doing it to boost morale, but the spirit of the joking is to try to at least pretend their situation is ok to avoid despair. This is not unlike Kira, who on the station is also trying to pretend that her situation is ok and that she needs to bide her time. Her comparatively cushy surroundings make it all too easy to trick herself into thinking she's not also stranded, swimming for life among the rocks and shoals of the Dominion. The difference is that she allowed herself to believe it briefly, but she was no less stuck on a planet with the Dominion than Sisko and the Fed crew were.
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Gary
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 1:46pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Rocks and Shoals

Regarding "aren't the Vorta an engineered species too". Sure they are, but they are also effectively the "managers". A good (and honourable) manager doesn't hang their employees out to dry, they shield them and take the blame themselves. Which is exactly what Third Remata'klan did as an honourable commander.

Just as in real-life, insanity or following orders or what not does get you off in some circumstances. Some things, however, are too despicable to be forgiven despite the situation -- which is the same type of concern Kira is dealing with and chewing herself up over.
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Booming
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 1:46pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Elderberry
That is really not the same. Bashir was just unintelligent and the parents wanted a better kid. It's one thing to say we don't want superhumans as to not turn Human existence into a giant race for the ultimate superhuman and quite another to say "Romulans are less valuable than Humans." and "Synthetics aren't allowed to exist".
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Elderberry
Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 1:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

The Federation (or at least the Earth end of the Federation) has always been closed-minded about genetic engineering as a not particularly rational reaction to a long-ago war. Julian Bashir's story, of a child so damaged that he couldn't tell the difference between a tree and a house, being forbidden treatment, and his parents being criminalised for seeking it, is an ugly one that goes unchallenged. There's a dark heart there and always has been. I don't have a problem with that limiting mindset extending itself to synths, or to Romulans, after the wars with the Borg and the Dominion.
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