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msw188
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 12:41am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Mal
Thanks for the reply! While I do think that the season would have been improved by a separate ending episode involving some legal-ish proceedings, I actually also agree with some other posters who think that an entire episode devoted to Jurati's trial is probably too much. Especially if it were a final episode (or a starting episode for next season, say). The focus of a season finale should definitely be on Picard and Soji, and I'm glad ours was. I just think it could have been fun and interesting to have a finale involving some details about the ban, and the Federation being willing to trust Soji to never build another beacon. In addition to covering Jurati's trial (and some others too).

You bring up an interesting point that, from a certain point of view, all of TNG is one gigantic courtroom drama for humanity. This simplifies things of course, but it was certainly no accident that the opener and closer were written the way they were.

@Nolan regarding episodic vs serialized
I agree with pretty much all of this.
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Picard Maneuver
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 12:19am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Chain of Command, Part I

I know when I think "special ops" I think "mid-40s clinician who looks like a housewife" and "Shakespearean actor who has been 50 years old for decades". At least the Ferengi immediately figured out who they were. In real life it would be like sending someone like Colin Powell or Jim Mattis out undercover. Picard would probably be recognized by someone regardless of where he went. After a rough start, the Cardassians finally come into their own here.

Hard to believe it took five and a half seasons to finally get Troi into uniform, which she actually looks good in. It's not that I object to a custom outfit, but most of them were shit. In retrospect, they probably should have put her in the uniform the entire time but given her some sort of accessory, like Crusher's labcoat or Worf's baldric. But knowing the costume designers they would have given her something ridiculous like a feather boa or some functionless pouch that made her look pregnant.

Around 16 minutes, some of the fluorescent lights near the hallway ground flicker as Riker and LaForge walk. I guess shooting was too tight to replace them. Worf's proximity alarm buster thingie sounds like an email notification.
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James White
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Last thing - Jurati is 10x better in Devs. Another show that laughs at Kurtzman.
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Mal
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:55pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ msw188, I love it - a great outline. I’ve been spending the lockdown watching old TNG, and there are just so many great courtroom episodes.

I never thought of Ensigns of Command as a legal drama, but of course Picard pulls some contractual loophole out of the treaty to defeat the Sheliak.

I never thought of A Matter of Perspective as a legal drama, but of course what we watch are each person’s “depositions” fed into the holodeck computer.

I never thought of Sins of the Father as a legal drama, but of course Worf’s family is on trial, and he cuts a plea bargain deal at the end.

It’s not just classic legal drama episodes like Measure of a Man or Drumhead, but when you think about it, all of TNG, starting right from the trial of humanity in Encounter at Farpoint, all the way through Q’s admonition (!!!!) in All Good Things… that the trial never ends - the whole thing is in some ways a legal drama judging what humans are and what humanity might become.

So by all means, @msw188, your idea of a Dr. Jurati trial down on the planet could have been a perfect denouement to the the season.

@Dom, my apologies that I’m not familiar with video games to add them to the list. But from what I understand, Mass Effect (even if I have no idea what that is - and this is my own limitation, not having played video games since Super Mario Brothers and TMNT the Arcade version, back in the 80’s), that ME is a huge influence on Picard. For more on breaking the human/AI cycle of conflict, see also nBSG. All this has happened before, but maybe all this doesn’t have to happen again.

@Tim, I agree with you completely on GOT, though I actually liked that the ending was true to the spirit of the books, most of which I had read long before the TV show ever came out. The end is true to the spirit of what GRRM seems to be setting up. It is anyone’s guess if GRRM will actually get around to writing the end. But your point is 100% correct: people would have been far more understanding if the show runners had taken their time getting there. And what is true of Game of Thrones and their show runners, is equally true of nuTrek and its show runners.

These people are too much in a hurry to get to their “clever” story points, and don’t give the show and the characters - and the audience - time to come along and enjoy the ride.

Remember The Wire, that epitome of good serial story telling? Each season started off slow. Allowed time for the characters to get established. And then, when faced with the major situation of the season, those characters could react naturally to those situations. The plot progression flowed naturally from the characters, rather than the characters being dragged along from plot point to plot point. But that takes excellence. And the hacks that are running nuTrek aren’t up to the job.

Discovery’s cardinal sin was not retconning a sister for Spock. Star Trek V retconned in a brother, but the movie was bad for completely different reasons. Discovery was too much in a hurry to get Michael established as the show lead. It took Picard almost two seasons - almost 50 episodes - before he was accepted by a wide swath of fandom as our captain. It took John Snow almost two seasons - almost 20 episodes - before he became our hero.

But with Michael, Discovery rushed through her trial. They didn’t even have a single episode of her serving time in jail. Heck, O’Brien had more jail time in DS9 than Michael did in Discovery - even though she was evidently convicted of one of the greatest crimes in Federation history. Even poor Cassidy Yates went away for more episodes than Michael. But the writers on Discovery were in a hurry. They cut too many corners. And as a result, the show sucks.

And don’t say cutting corners is just due to the short seasons that nuTrek has versus old Star Trek seasons.

Voyager suffered the same cardinal sin even with full length seasons.

Instead of taking a season to show the conflict between Janeway’s Federation crew and Chakotay’s Maquis crew, TPTB wrapped it all up in a few hours, put everyone in Starfleet uniforms, and called it a day. Compare that to how it could have been - should have been - in nBSG, where Adama and Roslin spent seasons taking pot shots at each other before they finally came to some workable power-sharing arrangement. That’s what it means to take your time. That’s what good writers do in serialised shows.

Not the hacks that run nuTrek.

So @msw188, I 100% endorse your idea of a courtroom drama. What a trial of Jurati might have done in the right hands - like all great Trek legal dramas (think back to TOS's The Menagerie), is take time. Take stock. Allow the grand changes that are happening in the ‘verse time to sink in.

Adding synths back to the fabric of the Federation is a big step.

No need to short circuit the change in 30 seconds of dialogue about what happened off-screen - WTF! Let it simmer like the changing of generations in Game of Thrones. Ned Stark was arrested in Episode 8, but not executed till the end of Episode 10. It takes time for the baton to pass. Think of the two trials of Tyrion - one in at the Eryie, one at Winterfell, and how much they fleshed out the show - a show that like Picard, only had 10 episodes in a season.

Unless these hacks running nuTrek learn to write - learn to structure an episode like the Mandalorian, and learn to structure a season like The Wire (or Mad Men or House of Cards), we’re going to be stuck for a long time with this drek.
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Gerontius
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: Justice

Good grief. I've just watched it again after many many years. Never again.

Presumably they've got a Logan's Run type law no-one mentioned, and everyone gets put down when they reach 30. A happy release, really.
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The Chronek
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

So....thoughts.

Upon first viewing, I was underwhelmed. I felt the Picard death/resurrection to be unearned with its emotion. To all those who said Picard would become an android last week, kudos, you got it.

I get Raffi being emotional. I get Elnor being emotional. They had established personal histories with Picard. But I don't buy that level of emotion from the rest of the supporting cast.

I liked the scene with Picard and Data in Picard's post-death vision/dream/complex simulation thing. That's the kind of sendoff Data deserved. That was well-earned emotion, mostly from TNG, but also from Picard's journey as we saw during the season.

The trouble with Star Trek main character deaths is that I inevitably compare it to Spock's death and resurrection in The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock. That still remains the gold standard for any main Trek character's death. The characters really made significant sacrifices to bring Spock back: their careers, their freedom, the Enterprise, and of course, Kirk's son. By comparison, Picard's death paled.

I agree that Jurati needs to stand trial for her crimes. Romulan influence or not, she still killed a man. This isn't some cultural differences thing, like when Worf claimed right of vengeance against Duras.

I would have liked to have seen Q back in the finale, picking up where he left off near the end of All Good Things.

Heck, maybe my disappointment in this episode comes from what I wanted to see.

So, now I'll catch up on Discovery and Short Treks.

Stay safe, all. LLAP.
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Jon
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Data's Day

For those confused about the definition of irony - ask Alanis Morrisette. Wait - don't.
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Tommy D.
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Law & Order: Trials of Trek

There are supposedly two as of yet announced Trek shows... I do agree that some of the best episodes and scenes in Star Trek are of the trial variety (Undiscovered Country is my personal favorite), I just am not sure in another 10 episode season if I want to see a full episode dedicated to the Trial of Agnes.

I think Raffi/7 makes sense for the characters involved (including Elnor, who was raised by women), but doesn't make sense from just what we were shown.

I also felt that there was a passage of time between Picards death and resurrection in the golem. I don't think it happened right away, but that also could be my headcanon. Soong had finished the golem, but Agnes would have had to oversee the mind transfer, which im assuming isn't a quick turnaround.
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Yanks
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ skye francis-maidstone

"I don't see the what's so great about The Mandalorian. It's pretty but full of soap opera quality acting and bad/sloppy writing. I'm not a SW fan I guess. The Expanse deserves all the praise it gets, however."

#1, glad you liked the closer. I really enjoyed it as well.

I also enjoy 'The Expanse' although I don't think it deserves quite the level of hype it gets.

As to 'The Mandalorian', I really enjoyed it. I think maybe because it's not trying to be anything it's not. It's been true to itself so far. I think it's better than the last 2 mainstream Star Wars movies. Hell, it makes fun of how bad the Stormtroopers aim is, gotta gove them credit for that :-)

That and I LOVE the theme song. I wish I could say the same for 'Picard'.

Dave in MN,

I hear ya and can empathize. If they "go there" with Raffi/7 I hope they make it meaningful. I don't want either character to end up like Culver in 'Discovery'. Such a waste of great acting talent.

Back to this episode, there is one thing I wish we could have seen. It would have been really meaningful had Data had a conversation with Soji. Especially with how he lost Lal.

OK, let's all cry now...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QTKxGG3-4o
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Patrick D
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@skye francis-maidstone

"I'm SO glad they didn't end with a 30 minute space battle like DSC S2 did (a finale that "everyone" except me apparently loved). That may have ruined what was on the whole a damn fine season."

I mean, it looked cool but it didn't really cap off the season in a way that meaningfully closed any arcs of the season (except for guest character Pike's, I suppose). And then the show comes up with the most inelegant solution in fiction by having everyone "forget what happened" in first two seasons of DISCO. I'm curious about what will happen in season 3 of DISCO, but I'm not excited about it at all.

Say what you will about this show, but at least it followed through with Picard being the optimistic hero and brings everyone into the light. Yes, they left many details hanging, but the main story arcs were more or less resolved in a plausibly Trekkian way. That plus the acting puts this leagues ahead of DISCO.

Set in a course for season 2, maximum warp. Engage!
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Captain Jon
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: The Battle

“The Battle” is a flawed but enjoyable entry that gives further insight into Picard’s background as well as establishing his tactical prowess that, to this point, has mostly consisted of him surrendering. The Ferengi are better used here, with most of their more annoying hijinks kept to a minimum. However, the crew doesn’t come across too well. First, Crusher takes far too long to figure something is suspicious about Picard’s insistent headache, which inexplicably start before the Stargazer is even revealed. If the orb is what is causing his headaches, how does it do so long distance?

The flashbacks to the Stargazer battle are both haunting and fun, however the pacing of the third act seems odd. If the point of all of this is for the Stargazer to destroy the Enterprise, why is no actual battle taking place with no exchange of weapons fire? Of course, it’s up to The Boy Wonder to outsmart his own crew and save the day, which makes them look even worse once again.

“The Battle” is fun but it could have been so much more.

🖖🖖🤟
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Chris Lopes
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Nolan

Point taken. 7's personal acceptance of who she is would require some work to explore. On Voyager (outside of the thing with Chakotay, that no one bought) 7 didn't really explore that part of her humanity. She's been on her own for quite a while since then, so there is no telling what kind of exploration she's been doing. While watching her deal with the discovery of her sexuality might interesting, that discovery likely happened years ago. The same goes for Raffi.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Yanks

Here's my perspective as a 40 year old guy who happens to be gay.

I went the first 20 years without any gay characters in genre fiction. I saw no one like me dealing with the unique aspects of gay existence as well as whatever difficulties the plot presented.

If there WAS a gay character, it would be either be a villian (mirror-Kira), a psychopath (The Kid in The Stand), a Queen (The Birdcage) or an saintly AIDS victim.

Yes, I'll agree that Hollywood is over-correcting somewhat (especially since infidelity seems to be the most common plot development gay characters encounter), but I'm happy that kids today (that are watching intelligent programming like "The Society" or "The Orville" or what-have-you) get to have someone they can see themselves it.

It's a lot better than the way I felt when I younger: that the only like-minded characters I saw were either damaged, diseased or comic relief.
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skye francis-maidstone
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@geekgarious "If this show were as good as a show like The Expanse, we wouldn’t be arguing over whether or not it’s Trek."

Oh we so would.. It's everyone's favourite topic.

I don't see the what's so great about The Mandalorian. It's pretty but full of soap opera quality acting and bad/sloppy writing. I'm not a SW fan I guess. The Expanse deserves all the praise it gets however.
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skye francis-maidstone
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:54pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@sc never a good idea to claim your opinion is the voice of everyone.. anyway..

Finallt got around to it: Damn fine finale. Brought a sentimental and sometime nostaligic tear to my eye a few times.

I'm SO glad they didn't end with a 30 minute space battle like DSC S2 did (a finale that "everyone" except me apparently loved). That may have ruined what was on the whole a damn fine season.

I mean the show isn't on an Expanse level of brilliance but with the exception of MAYBE the odd patch of DS9 and a handful of TNG realistically Star Trek never has been. Much as I love it. Thoroughly enjoyable. They could do with squeezing in the odd morale dilema a bit or some original high brow idea (which is tough given the vast amount tv these days tbh)...but whatever.. thoroughly enjoyable.

I agree with some of the above poster's... very nice send off for Data complete the song he sang at the wedding.

Hopefully Jammer can do a better effort than last weeks childish "I call BS" review but with everything that's going on it's probably understand if they're delay or not his usual standard.

Hmm I guess I have to sit through S3 of DSC. If I find myself ranting at the screen every 5 minutes after 2 or 3 episodes I fear I may have to give up on it.. and not come on here and rip into it every week with 1000 words either. Life is way too short.

Looking forward to s2 greatly.

Keep well and stay safe everyone.
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Yanks
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Good lord, Raffi/7 is the union LBGTQ check in the box. EVERY show HAS to have it now.

I saw it as a preview of what is to come. We've seen sexual changes before in Trek. Sulu is now gay.
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William
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Body and Soul

Wasn't ponn far supposed to happen every 7 years or so? It seems Tuvok is having his every other week...
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Dave in MN
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Nolan

After reading your comment, I'll second that an episode/ scene of Seven grappling with her sexuality (as you describe) would have been powerful.

I hope the Powers That Be are paying attention.
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Tim
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:32pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Gerontius

"I think Tim's summary of world war two rather misses out the Russian involvement - without that I'd question whether there would have been any inevitability about Allied victory."

The US/UK alliance would have beaten Germany without Soviet help, read the Plan Dog memo, which was written _before_ the Soviet Union was invaded, we just would have paid a huge butcher's bill to win the war. As it was the US and UK got off comparatively cheap, we had the luxury of fighting with money (tanks, planes, ships, etc.) rather than lives, which was the only choice the Soviets had. That said, I have to address this:

"And its been reasonably argued that the moment when eventual German defeat became inevitable was when Hitler invaded Russia"

That argument is flawed because the entire point of the war from Germany's perspective was to obtain "living space" (Lebensraum) in the East. Germany was _ALWAYS_ going to invade the Soviet Union. It was no secret, Hitler spelled it out in Mein Kampf, which was widely available and surely known to the Soviet intelligence apparatus. Stalin apparently didn't believe Hitler's own words, or he did and opted to throw the West under the bus to buy time, who can say, but it was all there, telegraphed out in the open more than a decade before the war started.

Everything that happened prior to Operation Barbarossa was mere table dressing. France had to be dealt with so Germany didn't have to fight another two front war. Poland had to be invaded because it was to be the first part of the "living space" for the Reich. The Balkens were conquered to secure Germany's oil supply and Southern Flank. The list goes on and on....
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Gerontius
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I think Tim's summary of world war two rather misses out the Russian involvement - without that I'd question whether there would have been any inevitability about Allied victory. (And its been reasonably argued that the moment when eventual German defeat became inevitable was when Hitler invaded Russia.)
.........
"Displaying public affection" writes Glob. What's "public affection" about clasping hands while playing a game in private? I didn't notice it on first viewing either, like Glob - and none of the other characters were in a position even to see it.

That kind of sudden awareness of a link, especially in the wake of a time of great peril, frequently happens, as Tim pointed out, anit doesn't need any particular build up in advance - and as I wrote earlier, they have some powerful things in common.
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Tim
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Sen-Sors

"Really? I mean, to each their own, but courtroom stories have turned out to be some of the highest rated Trek episodes as well as some of the best Picard stories. "Measure of a Man" and "The Drumhead" for example."

Do you really think a procedural courtroom drama about a manslaughter case and Jurati's defense of justification and/or temporary insanity could rise to the level of either of those two episodes?

The Measure of a Man was about individual liberty, freedom, the right to choose, and the rights of a newly created race that stood to be enslaved if the court had ruled the other way. The Drumhead was about paranoia in times of crisis and was freakishly prescient given the events of modern times, that episode was at least 10 years ahead of its time.......

How would you write a Jurati courtroom scene to be any different than a random Law & Order episode? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious, if you can convince me that it could be done in a compelling manner that would justify an entire episode or even a significant portion of one I'd be willing to entertain it, but if we're only going to get ten episode seasons out of Modern Star Trek I just can't see using one for this.
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Sen-Sors
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Also, remember those Romulan housekeepers from the start of the season? The former Tal Shiar operatives with extensive combat abilities as well as knowledge of the Zhat Vash, the organization trying to kill Daj, Soji and Picard himself?

Remember when we left them behind so Picard could recruit a Romulan child who was good at swinging a sword? Good times.
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Tim
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Glom

"Have these two characters ever exchanged dialogue? They can't have shared more than a couple of scenes since in episode 5 Raffi buggered off early and when Seven returned, she's spent almost the entire time in the Borg cube. If they have exchanged dialogue, has it been anything other than purely plot related?"

Why does everything need to be spelled out for people to be happy?

They shared a pretty intense life and death struggle together. They both have a common friend/mentor (Picard). They're on a ship afterwards playing some sort of game together. One of them accidentally brushes the other one's hand and chemistry ensues. I really don't think it needs to be viewed as anything more complicated than that.

(*) And yes, I can already predict people saying "Picard is Seven's mentor????" because folks here were previously annoyed that they seemingly had a relationship out of nowhere, but do recall that Seven was a Borg Drone during the time that Picard was Locutus and in every scene of Star Trek filmed since then has made it apparent that EVERY current and former Borg Drone retains a special connection to him.
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Nolan
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Chris Lopez

Please note, my comment was less about Seven coming out to society and friends, but to herself.

I'm no authourity on this, but I do suspect that realizing one is gay would still involve a bit of personal disconsertion, even in the 24th century. It's a big moment of self discovery, and does require a change of any childhood preconcieved notions of family life and having children (Even if same-sex couples in the future are able to have children composed of their own and partners DNA, the method would probably be different) Surely it would not be as traumatic as today, especially for any youths on that path, but for those that realize it when they're older I would guess that'd still be personally difficult.

Especially for Seven, who for all of Voyager's run viewed things in very concrete, scientific, analytical ways. I doubt anyone in Seven's life would bat an eye at her coming out as bisexual, but I can see it as being a period of intense personal questioning and introspection for her, as she is still recovering from the abuse of the Borg. It's alegorically rife for commenting on attitudes of today. Even if she has the comfort of an accepting society.

(I really hope none of this offends anyone, I'm just speculating about what sexuality would, um, look like for lack of a better term, in a future that embraces all forms of it)
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Sen-Sors
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 6:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tim

"I could really live without a whole episode (or even a whole scene) devoted to Law & Order: Alpha Quadrant"

Really? I mean, to each their own, but courtroom stories have turned out to be some of the highest rated Trek episodes as well as some of the best Picard stories. "Measure of a Man" and "The Drumhead" for example.

Not sure why we keep bringing up examples of Sisko being shady to excuse Jurati's actions. Sisko's actions were a person in power making impossible choices that compromised his values; the difficulty he had in doing that and the toll it took on his character were major themes of the show. Jurati is being let off the hook for murder because... She's quirky, I guess?

It's true that we did not see a court-martial episode after Sisko gassed that planet, and there are a few other examples like that in Trek. The "reset button" is generally recognized as a weakness with episodic storytelling and Trek in particular, but that alone does not make Jurati getting off for murder acceptable. I'd argue that in serialized storytelling, where character actions generally have more weight and carry over into subsequent episodes, pulling that kind of "welp, nevermind" maneuver is even more problematic.

Look, all I'm saying is Jurati deliberately killed a guy and whether or not she was in her right mind is an open question at best. They really ought to follow up on that in season 2, but given how her character was treated in the final episodes and Kurtzman Trek's habit of abandoning half-finished plots I have serious doubts they will. And if they expect the audience to just forget about Maddox's murder because Jurati is quirky and feels bad about it, then that's garbage writing as well as being pretty fucked-up.

I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong.
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