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Gail NYC
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 6:22pm (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S4: These Are the Voyages...

NoPoet, I like your ideas! I agree!

I found it very jarring when Troi tells Riker that "everyone" on Enterprise talked to Chef. REALLY???? That's the first I'm hearing of it. Bizarre moment in a bizarro and pretty terrible episode. Hope to read "The Good That Men Do" to wipe my memory of this episode.
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Red D
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:43pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

@trent - I am literally applauding your breakdown of this episode. A superb summary of this godawful episode!
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Peter G.
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 2:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature

*shudder*
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Booming
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 2:23pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

@ The Queen
That really depends on what you mean with typical. Milking a show to death TWD certainly did that. I think I jumped ship in season 6 or 7 which was far later than I planed. In what way these shows are typical I cannot really judge though.

If you like silent scenes then TWD has a great one. No gore. season 3 ep 10 the beginning. I really love it. It is so sweet. It is great visual storytelling.

---- spoiler ---- explanation for what that scene means:
Rick lost his wife in a very gruesome way and under very bad circumstances and is starting to lose it because of that. In that episode he is running around seeing his dead wife and he even openly, almost jokingly admits to the others that somebody else has to lead because he is seeing things.
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dave
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 2:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

One point I would like to say about the writing.

They are not writing this show with "us" in mind. The old Trek fans who go back 10,20,30+ years. They are trying to write for an 18-34 type of demo that doesn't have the reverence for Trek and its way of telling stories. They put in all the links to past Treks to keep the old fans on board, but they really want to target something new.

Picard was an absolute clear example of that, and why it was such a mess for anyone seeking TNG style. Discovery seems to have recognized this and looked for a hybrid between the two and so I would say season 3 is far and away their best so far.

I like SMG to be honest; a lot of the heat she gets is the material she is given more than anything else, and that the show writes her as the cause and solution to everything. In saying that, Rosario Dawson just put on an acting clininc in the Mandalorian this past week so I don't think it is fair to compare SMG to her at all. Would have been nice to have her on the series of course!
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dave
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 2:08pm (UTC -6)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 13: The Jedi

The Mandalorian is getting damn good. Wow. I enjoyed it before but didn't expect it to get this good and go down the universe building path towards the First Order and all that.

Just blown away by the last couple of episodes and how good they are.

Can Disney please just give Jon Favreau the top spot for Star Wars and let him run the ship for anything they do going forward? The man knows how to deliver Star Wars.
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Z
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 1:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

Wow! Well that was bad. Talk about nose diving off a cliff. I thought this season was starting strong, but so many facepalm moments in the past three episodes. Then this gem of an episode has sealed the deal and my most feared synopsis: The writers have learned nothing from their previous mistakes and are actively dismantling Trek.

Horrible writing. Even worse is when you watch Discovery then Mandalorian the next day, you are reminded just how bad the Trek universe is right now. We need new creative direction, please Disney buy Trek!
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The Queen
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 1:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

Zulu - The Android Picard didn't turn me off from that show. I can still be persuaded if they come up with a good second season. I was asking Booming if that was what he disliked about it.

Trent - Loved the TNG episode Unification III. You should write for Disco.

Sjan - "Patient" storytelling, Yes! That's what's missing.

Since several people have mentioned that SMG was "good" or "okay" in The Walking Dead, I watched a few episodes last night as I've never seen that show. And I agree, she was fine. But her role was really minor and I was surprised that she was picked to go directly from that to a lead role. She did have her whispering quirk even in that show, but not nearly as noticeable.

I only watched eppies from the fifth season, because all the gore would never be enjoyable for me, but I was impressed by the quality of the show. Both the acting and the writing were uniformly good. The directing seemed uniformly good; I especially liked that there were often scenes with no dialogue at all, and no music either. You could just watch without being told how you should feel. And there was none of the intrusive camera work that both ST: Picard and Discovery have - SUCH a relief. I also greatly enjoyed the ensemble style.

So I have a couple of questions for people familiar with that show: Which is more typical of fantasy/scifi television these days, TWD or Disco? As far as the overall production style/camera work/treatment of characters? And, does SMG have a bigger role in later seasons, or is the 5th season typical?

I don't mean to get off the track, but from what I saw it seems like SMG was always going to be over her head in the Michael Burnham role, and she's obviously getting no help from directing.
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sjan
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 12:58pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

This show is such a disgrace to the patient storytelling of shows like TNG or Deep Space Nine. The emotions are fake, the stories are melodramatic, and there is no sense that these are real people carrying out their lives in deep space. Science fiction uniquely allows us to broaden our thinking: there is no imagination in this show, no sense of real drama or stakes. It's a wonder that a show about a drug dealer making meth in barren Albequerque New Mexico is more transportive and optimistic about human potential than a show set among the stars.
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James G
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 12:36pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: The Pegasus

Superb episode. An intriguing sci-fi concept; that of 'phasing' through solid material. A moral ambiguity over Riker's actions and character that actually brings him into conflict with Picard. Some devious secrecy at Starfleet. And a bit of tension with the Romulans.

Interesting to see a black Romulan. It makes sense, lots of planets could have regions with different climates in which the local humanoids develop different skin colour and characteristics. See also: Tuvok. You could even argue that Worf is a black Klingon, but I think the prosthetics are laid on a bit thick to describe any Klingon as "white" or "black".

I suppose it raises the question though of why we don't see more of them, but anyway. Not important.

It's fantastic to see the Enterprise pot-holing in the asteroid, I loved that. And the confrontation with Picard, in which the Captain fully exerts his authority on his first officer, even concluding their conversation with a curt "Dismissed!" is terrific. The first few minutes set us up quite nicely for this, with Riker comfortable enough to poke fun at Picard at "Captain Picard Day".

I can't really buy the cloaking device just getting plugged into the ship's systems with a bit of fibre-optic cable then taking the whole structure of the ship out of phase, but you have to overlook some of the detail to go along for the ride. I don't get how thrusters interact with the universe you're out of phase with, either.

Also - I thought the ending was a bit of a cop-out. Riker comes out of the brig (surely being confined to quarters would have done), Picard gives him a few kind words and I assume that's the last we'll hear of it. But I guess he conducts himself properly throughout the events of the episode, even if he didn't as a younger officer.

I could also have done without the Riker injury scene, in which he says to Beverley "I knew what I was supposed to do and I didn't do it". Obviously intended to be allegorical but far too obvious. And thoroughly disposable.

There should have been some astringent dialogue with the Romulan captain after the Enterprise decloaks.

Still. Really one of the best TNG episodes ever, probably in my top 10.
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Booming
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 12:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

@wanderer2575
Not really. Some people complained that Kim stayed ensign the entire time but that is actually accurate. A captain cannot promote somebody. To an acting position maybe but then Janeway would have to promote everybody to some form of acting. If it would have been possible to promote him, he would have, at the end of voyager, probably been Lt. senior grade which is sufficient for a night shift command post. Especially considering the manpower shortage. So having him command the ship is understandable.
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Luke
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 11:57am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature

@Peter G.

It could be worse. Imagine if some hack writer wrote that Romulus was destroyed by a supernova in another star system and then every movie and episode thereafter had to acknowledge and build on that nonsense.
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Luke
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 11:50am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature

@Chrome

Picard has nothing to with mandating the Warp Five speed limit. It’s the Federation Council that mandates it. When Picard is first informed of it in the episode’s final scene, it’s clear he’s rather shocked by the news.

You are right, however, that it would be impossible to police this order - which is just one of many reasons why it’s a stupid addition to the show. Are they just going to go on the Honor System? Who gets to determine what constitutes an “extreme emergency” where the limit can be exceeded? Does each ship’s Captain get to make that call or does the bureaucracy (God forbid!!!!) get to do it? If warp travel actually is damaging all space everywhere (which this very episode contradicts), how are they going to get the other warp-capable civilizations to comply? Does anybody think the Dominion (for example) will even care?

You’re also right that Picard’s first plan of independent studies and expert consultation would be best. But, why would the writers let things like logic, reason, and proper scientific analysis get in their way when they just want to push their environmentalist agenda?
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wanderer2575
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 11:36am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

Guess we're gonna have to rethink all those times Harry Kim was in command during night shifts.
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Peter G.
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 11:34am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature

@ Chrome,

Worse than that, it hamstrings the rest of the series (or franchise!) into having to pay lip service to this inane new premise. A few episodes after this did pay minimal homage to this ongoing reality but after that it was rightly shucked. Why write in such a game-changing rule? It would be like some writer of the week penciling into an episode that the Federation has dissolved, or that matter transporters actually kill you and create a duplicate with no soul. Or even worse, imagine if some lame writer wrote that Vulcan blew up. Anyhow, it's hard to believe such stories could make it past the pre-production process. I think the only force of nature here is production deadlines.
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PB
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:57am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Afterimage

I really appreciated the Ezri/Garak counseling sessions actually. She does come off like an intern, and she got stuck with an ex-intelligence agent with a history of severe child abuse (which he can't even acknowledge as such)? Jesus. Aside from her oversharing I felt like she did tolerably well under the circumstances, lol.

Also his teardown of her didn't come off so much as a SICK BURN as someone projecting to an almost comical degree. You'll never live up to this great name, you're a failure who doesn't know what you're doing, blah blah. Please, tell us more about your father, Garak...
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Chrome
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 8:12am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature

@Peter G.

Good observations about Spot and Geordi's eagerness to control everything. It's kind of a pattern Geordi has where he thinks he can find a technological solution to every problem when sometimes there just isn't any.

What's interesting (or crazy) about this episode to me is how Picard has the political will to convince Starfleet to mandate every ship not go above warp 5. Is Starfleet just that malleable to change? Could you imagine a world leader trying to mandate all cars not go above 50 mph to prevent carbon emissions? Surely there would be riots and it would be practically impossible to enforce such a regulation. I can't begin to imagine how a much more vast area like outer space could be policed.

What's worse is that it seems like Picard's original plan was the best one: we'll conduct some independent studies and consult this matter with the Federation. Wouldn't that be the best approach before hamstringing every ship in the fleet?
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Booming
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 3:26am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

@The Queen
"Picard destroyed Star Trek for you by . . . . . . .?

If you mean by making him an android, then yeah. I'm going to watch the new season to see what they plan to do with that, but it worries me."

Oh no. Picard being an android was just the icing on the cake of darkness. On a philosophical level, or maybe thematically, I still dislike STP more than Discovery. Even though Discovery is the worse show from a pure cinematic standpoint. STP destroyed Star Trek. And I don't mean the horribly botched storylines like the Romulans who were the refugee stand-ins being the villains or the androids who represented persecuted minorities trying to commit galaxy wide genocide. No, that was terrible but what was more world smashing was that they showed us that in the span of 30? years the Federation turned from basically the most positive version of humanity into a realm full of racist xenophobes, with classism, drug abuse and Fox News. Almost like a bizarro version of the Federation. I even read a comment from a producer or writer (don't remember which) "that what we saw in TNG was only one side of the coin and that all those horrible things we see on STP were always there". Kind of like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rObSWkQA7og&ab_channel=Ferrybad77

So yeah TNG or TOS were just pleasure cruises for the upper class. While the rest of the Federation was dealing with shitty replicators, unfulfilling jobs and pollution. And for what? To get their shitty streaming service going.

@Trent
"I mean, Kirk finds Abe Lincoln floating through space, and barely batted an eyelid. If Michael saw that, she'd have a mental breakdown."
Hahahaha, ok you successfully outbitched me. :D

@Tom
"Whether this is intentional to cater to more modern tastes or a matter of the writers not having the skill to navigate intellectual issues, I do not know."
This is by design, I think. It is far easier to connect with a show emotionally than intellectually. Star Trek was always had it's emotional beats, even the more emotional episodes had their intellectual parts sprinkled in. That seems to be gone for the most part. Many people are insecure about their intellectual capabilities. If you reduce the intellectual content then people will have less "I don't understand this" moments. That is why I wrote in another post that NuTrek doesn't respect it's audience. They will never challenge the audience intellectually. I at least cannot remember when they have done that.
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Daniel Nugent
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 3:00am (UTC -6)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 13: The Jedi

@Leif - At best we could hope for a brief shot of him in the season finale, a holo message to Moff Gideon maybe. I imagine the casting on this would be big news so the lack of that makes me think it might be next season he'll appear.
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Peter G.
Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 1:55am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature

Man this episode is bad. For the Spot allegory it's fairly simple: wild thing all around you, which is supposed to be "yours" but does wild things you don't expect and don't want. The sense of ownership is key because Data believes he owns the cat; it's not merely his roommate. And Geordi wants to own space itself; or rather the mechanics that govern it. He doesn't like wild elements that put it out of his control. Convincing Data to train Spot is at first glance just a poorly written scene about nonsense. People do not routinely train their cats as they are wild animals. They can be trained in the sense any animal (like a bear) can be trained, but they are not bred to receive training with pleasure. They don't even pick up on our cues well. So Geordi telling Data to train his cat is a bizarre, almost surreal scene already. Is Geordi supposed to be ignorant, or is Data the one missing out on training programs? Well it's neither: it's just a ham-handed way of saying that Geordi believes that everything should be behave how he wants, because these things exist to service you. Space, as it turns out, is a wild animal like spot and won't be trained, or even used to your ends, without consequences you can't control. You might see subspace tears up the couch and pees on your warp engines when it's upset. Not that that's explained, I'll just mentioned that the whole cat angle (a) takes way too much time, (b) is emotionally flat and tedious, and (c), makes us actually wonder whether Data thinks Geordi is acting weird. But LeVar totally sells is that he's quite right about training cats. Was there a communication in production about who is actually supposed to be making sense - cause, it ain't Geordi.

Besides all this the episode is poorly plotted, the pacing is awful, the scene order feels almost random, there's no drive, and the 'crisis' could not possibly interest us less. It's just a perfect storm of a mis-written, mis-directed, and even mis-acted series of scenes. It's just lazy across the board. I don't tend to agree out of the gate about Season 7 itis, but if anyone wanted to make a case for it they could start here.
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BannedForLesas
Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 10:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S3: Who Watches the Watchers

The issue AT HAND is Hagins keeps calling in His Supposed God as a personal weapon to
Smite any of us who would talk against him or his ilk. With every comment he intones “well me and my god will smear ye because we’re in the know, so neener neener” and that’s quite the bulls hit.

After seeing what the jehovah are doing to that young girl, and have done to others in similar circumstances, I’m not inclined to listen to a word from this Hagins character.
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/11/9/21557200/utah-supreme-court-case-woman-says-church-made-her-listen-to-audio-of-her-rape-jehovahs-witnesses
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Tom
Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 10:33pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

I think the difference between DSC and the older incarnations like TOS, TNG and DS9 is the shift away from any pretense of intellectualism, towards emotional impact. For better or worse, in TOS or TNG this episode (a typical "trial" setting) would have hinged upon certain issues which are solved in a rational, logical and impersonal way.

Here, there is talk ABOUT logic with very little of it employed in the trial. The situation is resolved because essentially the Vulcans/Romulans resonate emotionally with Michael's plight. Whether this is intentional to cater to more modern tastes or a matter of the writers not having the skill to navigate intellectual issues, I do not know.

However, the producers/writers are mistaken if they equate the intellectualism of past Treks with lack of emotional resonance or accessibility to modern audiences.
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Silly
Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 9:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: The Last Outpost

Oh dear. It’s amazing how badly south this went in the second half.

The reason seems to be they wanted Riker and Data to provide a speechifying info dump on Federation backstory. There’s certainly no sense in them saying all these things to the Keeper.

The claim that the Ferengi were distorting their image in some way made little sense. It’s obviously zoomed tight on a Ferengi face.


One HUGE annoyance is at the very end, Picard gives Geordi orders that Geordi can’t do because his fingers are stuck in the finger trap. Uh, hello? He had seen Data with the puzzle and even laughed at him, so clearly he knows how it works.
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Trent
Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 9:36pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

Slacker said: "I wonder if that very saccharine personal/emotional approach is something they have found via focus group (as alluded to upthread) resonates with today's audiences? Or is it just the predilection of this writing staff?"

I think "Discovery's" writers just aren't familiar with nautical fiction, and none have actually served in the military.

TOS had a lot of ex military men on the writing team, TNG strove hard to feel like a professional ship-of-the-line, and Ira Behr's a big war/history buff.

This lent those past shows a bedrock of realism and professionalism. I mean, Kirk finds Abe Lincoln floating through space, and barely batted an eyelid. If Michael saw that, she'd have a mental breakdown.


Skye-Francis said: "I'm finding this season really hard to get through now and all my initial enthusiasm for DSC has now gone."

All the bad writers are gone now. Kurtzman (pilot) and Kirsten Beyer (this episode) were the worst writers in this season's line up. It's now decent writers from here to the end. And two more episodes will be directed by Frakes.
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Skye Francis-maidstone
Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 9:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

@trent

That was a good read. Agree entirely.

How many stars? Out of curiosity. People often rip DSC a new one then end with 2 out of 4 stars. Rather odd.
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