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Booming
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 6:03am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Cody
I know you and your relationship with the femoids.

"I don’t know why enjoy arguments"
Did you ever participate in a debate where you didn't paint yourself as the victim?(That is a rhetorical question)

"but I am going to do my best to ignore all the "are you off the meds, psycho" stuff and stick to discussing the episode."
I will certainly not forget that you insulted me... ok I probably will but I will try not to. *vindictive smiley*
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 5:29am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I certainly enjoy debating too - but I am going to do my best to ignore all the "are you off the meds, psycho" stuff and stick to discussing the episode. You, Mike and Atymiss have all made interesting points on the Tilly arc and it's all far more interesting.
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Cody B
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 5:13am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Booming

Why do you have to be antagonistic? My reply to you was friendly and respectful. I don’t know why enjoy arguments
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Booming
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 5:09am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Tomalak
"The idea that character weight gain is off limits is your weird hang up, not ours."
Are you off your meds, sweetheart? I never said anything of the sort.

"If you can't take it or can't say anything other than "you can't talk about this!", maybe this board isn't for you?"
Cancel culture much?

I was just pointing out a behavior pattern. So how about stopping your little psycho hissy fit.
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 4:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

"On Tilly: Has it ever been suggested in any Trek episode that performance of Starfleet duties requires a body with low fat percentage? Or is this just speculation, like Trump's assertion that trans people in the military are a burden. Technology has already rendered many of the body's functions as obsolete in our time, so it's not hard to envisage the body as wholly obsolete in the future."

I think episodes like the Learning Curve in S1 Voyager and the DIS one referenced above make clear that physical fitness as we would understand it today is still an expectation. But obviously they seem to be laxer about it with experienced officers like Scotty - which is realistic when you see a lot of top military brass on TV today. I don't think it's some big plot hole in the show, but it's extremely noticeable that Tilly has quickly gone from this:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/b2/87/dbb2873441ae2843ea16e96ef2e03a48.jpg
to this:
https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Ensign-Tilly-In-Saloon.jpg?resize=800,534

It's interesting from a world building perspective what we think about all this. For all we know she has been disciplined off screen. In reality of course, it's probably just that the producers are too woke/scared to tell the actress to lose weight the way they did with the much thinner Sirtis in the 1980s.

Boomer, no one needs your permission or anyone else's. This board discusses all kinds of big and small issues and character arcs, sometimes in episodes filmed more than 50 years ago. The idea that character weight gain is off limits is your weird hang up, not ours. If you can't take it or can't say anything other than "you can't talk about this!", maybe this board isn't for you?
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Booming
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 4:01am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I think Trent is onto something. Maybe they actually told her to gain weight. Americans are very fat. Maybe she is pregnant. This debate is far more interesting than her actual looks.

@Cody

"I really don’t care"
Clearly.

As others have pointed out. She did not have a weight loss arc. THey showed her once running. Her weight hasn't been mentioned on the show.

"Kirk was never fat. He gained a little weight as he got older but never looked like he wasn’t in reasonably good shape."
*cough*
https://tvseriesfinale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/star-trek-VII-generations-02-4.jpg

I instinctively want to move away from him here because that belt thingy looks like it is about to explode and take out several crewman!

" Today a television show is considered “real acting” and even what’s shown and written is supposed to be a little more realistic."
ehh what?! It is just different body standards.

I also love that the weight watchers here always start with giving themselves permission by saying that it is ok to talk about it. Rarely a good start.
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MidshipmanNorris
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

The chewy chunks being scraped off the floor in engineering look suspiciously like prosciutto... other than that, I don't have time to talk... and now I want a sandwich, lol
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

"What are you saying? that overweight people cannot be in Starfleet?! Scotty and Jim, have you heard?!"

This would be a more persuasive criticism if I hadn't compared Tilly's weight gain to Scotty's in my first post above. As I said, it doesn't seem crazy to think characters would have weight problems in the future - although it is striking how fast Tilly has ballooned. Scotty in TOS Season 3 in 1969 v Undiscovered Country in 1991 is a big difference, but a lot of time had passed in reality and in the show. DIS S1 v S3 is a couple of years. They could reference it or they could ignore it. But instead, as Cody notes above, amusingly they reference how much fitter the character is getting even as she balloons in weight.
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Atymiss
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Mike
Very good points.

Wasn't Riker distinctly 'on the large side' after the first few seasons of TNG? I don't remember Picard taking him to one side and telling him for the sake of his Starfleet career he needed to slim down.

The older Scotty was enormous, he was still the best engineer though!

Wouldn't some alien races be naturally different standard sizes to the perfect human? Bolians seems quite chubby. Should they not be allowed into Starfleet?
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Mike
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:44am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

There's no need to kill off or remove Georgiou. It's sometimes good to have a regular antagonistic/villainous character whose behavior is erratic (think Q, Baltar, Dukat, Weyoun, Bester) so having Saru lay down the law with her and tell her to behave or she's in the brig would add some dimensionality to her character, and conflict among the crew. It's not like she's genetically predisposed to act that way, and I think she's one of the better actors/actresses in the show.

On Tilly: Has it ever been suggested in any Trek episode that performance of Starfleet duties requires a body with low fat percentage? Or is this just speculation, like Trump's assertion that trans people in the military are a burden. Technology has already rendered many of the body's functions as obsolete in our time, so it's not hard to envisage the body as wholly obsolete in the future.
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Sen-Sors
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Actually no, the best thing they could do with Georgiou this season would be to make her the big bad. What reason does she have to actually care for this Micheal Burnham? Why wouldn't she want to rebuild what was taken from her? How exactly does she share Starfleet's values? Actually don't answer that. The point is Micheal has to kill her and make the face. It's perfect.
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Sen-Sors
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:26am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Earlier people were noting that STD-era Starfleet's notable values include planting bombs on planets, installing sockpuppet leaders on said planets, and animal torture. I submit that immediately funneling the former ruler of the Terran Empire into Starfleet black-ops, a position of great power and influence, is right up there in terms of clarifying values.

I think Michele Yeoh is a good actress and even now she is doing the best with the material given to her. The original Georgiu seemed like a promising character and a solid captain, but she, like Lorca, had to be sacrificed on the altar of Burnham. Now she's a cartoon villain who sticks out like a sore thumb; she's a murderous sociopath but the show seems to think she is also lovable and endearing, I think? Because she has fun with all the murdering she does? I dunno. It's bizarre.

At this point the best Mirror Georgiu can hope for is a pleasantly cliche death in battle while Micheal looks on making the Burnham-face. If they seriously go for reforming the Terran Empress into a model citizen because she's Micheal's new mommy that will make me feel sad, mad and overall bad.
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dave
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:01am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Re: Tilly Weight comments

In storyline, its inconceivable she would gain that much weight because that would mean being an unprofessional officer by not working out and blowing your meal plans out the window.

In real life, its unprofessional she would allow that to happen considering this is her current career to play a professional officer on a ship.

Outside of her job and her storyline, in the real world, its her body and she looks great. So I think that doesn't matter in that view. BUt like i said, in storyline or as her professional career, it seems quite amazing she would not take it more seriously.
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Frank A. Booze
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 12:28am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I am glad to see that so many people also cannot stand Georgiou. For some reason I thought she wasn’t with Discovery when they went into the future. I pretty much did a Darth Vader “Nooooooooooo!” when I realized I was wrong. She is just so corny. It would have been like having Mirror Kira permanently on DS9.

Get her off the show immediately.
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Jaxon
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 12:14am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Brothers

Might have been wise to postpone this episode a little later in the season.

Here the Enterprise is fresh out of an extended stay on Earth, but the crisis is already "cutting short a liberty".
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Wyatt M.
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 11:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Genesis

Totally a guilty pleasure episode. Always loved it despite it's obvious setbacks.
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Peremensoe
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 10:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Trans and NB characters are expected this season.

I don't recall that Tilly was ever stated to be losing weight, let alone having a "weight loss arc" story. I thought she was trying for a "physical-endurance commendation" - apparently successfully, as she was then accepted for the command training program for which that was supposed to be an assist.

"The show's going for ultra diversity, all the main characters black, gay, latino or Asian, with Tilly the plump, body positive token character."

And that would be the most classically Trek thing possible. Right?
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Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 9:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Janeway fan: "I wonder why they didn't include any trans or genderless crew members in that diversity. That was and is still a very much alive topic, in the US at least."

Trans and non-binary characters are being introduced this season, and I believe one is a Trill.
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Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 9:41pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Startrekwatcher said: "Fringe was another hot mess filled with fantasy and unbelievable psuedo-science, emotionally uninvolving romance between the two leads. It was a poor man’s inferior The X/Files."

Yeah, "Fringe" lifts whole chunks from "The X Files" (from plots to countless actors).

But it's interesting to look at the differences, and to compare them to Kurtzman's work in Trek.

Like Trek, "The X Files" is a modern version of "Twilight Zone" (and "Outer Limits"), and together with Trek was the biggest science fiction show of the 1990s. Like Trek, it was highly episodic, though it increasingly dabbled in longer arcs.

Kurtzman, of course, then makes "Fringe" and "Discovery", essentially modern versions of the two biggest 1990s SF shows, "The X Files" and Star Trek".

But where "The X Files" strives to be "realistic" and "naturalistic", "Fringe" is more jokey and ironic. Where "The X Files" strove be vague, frustrate and leave questions unanswered, "Fringe" goes to lengths explaining and spelling out phenomenon. When "The X-Files" heroes are anti-establishment, outsiders and underfunded, "Fringe's" heroes are endorsed by the government and are well funded. Where "Fringe's" heroes can affect and change the world for the better - the unknowable is understandable and that individual choices matter - "The X files'" heroes are ineffectual, constantly losing, impotent, and never granted a full picture, the universe forever unknowable. Where "Fringe" provides closure, "The X-files" would only explain something, whilst simultaneously adding something that further muddied the waters, which led to the show becoming bafflingly ridiculous, conspiracy piled upon conspiracy, though this was part of its philosophical strategy (Mulder fittingly lived in room 42 - "The Answer to the Universe and Everything" in Hitchhiker's Guide - on a street named after a philosopher who believed in a kind of ontological unknowability).

Kurtzman didn't seem to have as much to do with "Fringe" as he does on "Discovery" - it seems more of a JJ Abrams project - but it highlights how his approach to art differs from the things he rips off. It's a safer, glossier, funnier, less risky, more crowd pleasing thing. And parallel universes! He loves his elaborate alternate universes, which he's done in several films, "Discovery", and I'm sure he's responsible for in "Fringe".

There's also a narrative-opaqueness that characterizes his work. You can pick up most old "X-files" or "Trek" episodes and understand them. You enter a season mid-way in "Discovery" or "Fringe", and you're lost. It's a more convoluted thing, often reliant on elaborate mystery boxes (which he picked up from JJ Abrams' "Lost").
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janeway fan
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I wonder why they didn't include any trans or genderless crew members in that diversity. That was and is still a very much alive topic, in the US at least. All the other types of diversity Trent mentioned are nothing new for Trek.
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Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:37pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Startrekwatcher said: "He plagiarized other people’s work. Just look at StarTrek. into Darkness. He says homage I say wholesale lifting of meyer’s film. "

Kurtzman's first sold script was taken to court by the writers of "The Clonus Horror", who filed a copyright infringement suit. A judge determined that there was indeed a copyright infringement case to be heard, and the studios settled out of court for a SEVEN-FIGURE SUM.

So the guy has been ripping-off other people from the start.
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Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Tilly's supposed to be chubby. You're supposed to notice her being chubby.

The show's going for ultra diversity, all the main characters black, gay, latino or Asian, with Tilly the plump, body positive token character.

______________

In this episode, the Mirror Empress asked Linus (the big eyed alien) about his eyes, and then took him aside. What was this about? How did Linus help her?
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Cody B
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Booming

I guess there’s somewhat of an argument there with Scotty and Kirk but not really. Kirk was never fat. He gained a little weight as he got older but never looked like he wasn’t in reasonably good shape. Scotty almost never left the ship and again any weight gain was as he got older. Tilly on the other hand specifically went through an arc where she was supposed to be losing weight and getting fit yet over two years has ballooned. If we were talking 20 years like the TOS crew from show to the movies I wouldn’t bring it up. Also there’s the fact that a show in the 60s wasn’t treated as serious as shows today. Today a television show is considered “real acting” and even what’s shown and written is supposed to be a little more realistic.
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Cody B
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@MTF-HA

Not one person was rude or “full of hate”. Not until you that is. Don’t know at all what you’re talking about bullying actresses? No one has done that or will. 🤚 May I please comment that a character on a television show went through a weight loss arc but physically gained weight? Do I have your permission?
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Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Indiscretion

This episode watches as Sisko "rejects" Kassidy Yates, and then resolves to forge a relationship with her. Mirroring this is a similar tale in which Dukat "rejects" his daughter, and then resolves to forge a relationship with her.

The Sisko plot is cute, with Dax and Bashir playing matchmakers, but Avery Brooks performance is odd and downright bad in places. He also seems emotionally and socially immature and/or incompetent throughout; you'd expect a far-future guy, never mind a Federation commander, to be far more adept at social interactions.

The Kira/Dukat plot is dull, and has a number of unnecessarily goofy scenes, like one in which Dukat gets a space-cactus stuck in his butt, Kira howling with laughter. Far better are a number of menacing scenes in which Dukat expresses his belief that "Cardassian rule was good for the Bajorans" and "made them tougher and stronger" and that "Bajorans should thank Cardassians" etc etc. I've just watched a documentary in which a black BBC journalist interviews Richard Spencer, a white supermacist, and the similarity between Spencer's rhetoric and Dukat's was eerie ("The decedents of slaves should be thankful", "You're better off here than in Africa" etc), and also Kira's tight-lipped rage, which echoed the simmering anger of the black journalist in this documentary. DS9 really captured some moments of raw truth.

The episode ends with the revelation that "Dukat wishes to kill his daughter", which is beautifully dark and twisted. Kira talks Dukat out of this - the daughter's immediate acceptance of Dukat is unconvincing - which will lead to an interesting mini-arc in future episodes.
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