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Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 1:44am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks


In my view, the question of how enjoyable Lower Decks is, is totally different from the question of whether we should accept it as part of the main continuity.

Here are my problems with accepting this show as part of the main continuity:

1. Enjoyable or not, it's a silly animated comedy. Can you imagine adding events from Lower Decks to any "serious" Star Trek timeline? I mean, if the show doesn't take *itself* seriously, why should we?

2. If, as you say, the science realism level is on par with giant starship-clutching hands and planet-eating space amoebas, that's not a good sign. Just because TOS did it in the 1960's, doesn't make it any less goofy. Trek has marched forward in the following 40 years, and the standard we've expected from it have risen accordingly.

3. We've already had two new series that don't fit the established continuity at all. To put it bluntly: The trust is gone, so accepting new material as "official history" is no longer the default.

If TPTB want us to reopen our Trek history books and add new material, they'll have to give us a compelling reason to do so. And let's be honest: a light goofy cartoon is not a compelling reason.

I'll admit to one thing, though:

Unlike DIS and PIC, LDS at least feels like it is set in the Star Trek universe. It's a goofy animated comedy set in that world, but there's no doubt about the setting.
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Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 12:32am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: Ties of Blood and Water

A good drama, but is it science fiction? Wouldn’t the plot play out the same set in medieval france or on a ranch outside of Dallas?
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

If the show was called Star Trek: Lower Ducks and it starred a bunch of anthropomorphic ducks in Starfleet uniforms, it would be no more canon than this shit show
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

It's not Star Trek because Star Trek is actually about something it's a bunch of different departments working very hard to bring a story that actually really attempt to examine the human condition while having some fun and action and drama along the way lower deck is a cheap cash grab a desperate Creator in a desperate studio just hoping to quickly give some good numbers to the investors. You can call it starts like all you want because have a name and logo plastered on it but that means nothing
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

McCoy: "Jim, I think I liked him with a beard better. It gave him character. Of course, almost any change would be a distinct improvement."

Kirk: "What worries me is the easy way his counterpart fitted into that other universe. I always thought Spock was a bit of a pirate at heart."

Spock: "Indeed, gentlemen? May I point out that I had an opportunity to observe your counterparts here quite closely. They were brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilized, every way, splendid examples of homo sapiens. The very flower of humanity...I found them quite refreshing."

(Spock mans his station)

Kirk: ...
McCoy: ...
Kirk: "I'm not sure, but I think we've been insulted."
McCoy: "I'M sure." >:/

... Which is an actual, layered, written joke. Unlike Lower Decks, which is just 25 minutes of people being idiots and doing stupid things and saying stupid things.
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David Staum
Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: The Void

I agree with most of the reviewers - I liked the episode quite a bit, as well as the optimism displayed.

One reviewer mentioned that Janeway should have deployed warning buoys. How about taking it a step further and sending vast quantities of supplies into the void, including the technology to escape? It would have shown magnanimity to those still trapped there, despite their treachery towards Voyager. That would have been a true Starfleet moment.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 6:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: The Enterprise Incident

This episode rates 2 stars at best and certainly nowhere close to 4 stars. Hear me. This story aspires to be serious and significant unlike say “The Trouble with Tribbles” or “A Piece of the Action” which are fun and silly and don’t pretend to be anything else. But just as you would judge “The Trouble with Tribbles” by whether or not it amused you and made you laugh, so too, you have to judge “The Enterprise Incident” by whether it achieves its objectives.

So treating this as a serious story, is the plot credible? Not in the slightest. The basic premise is that the Romulans have cloaking technology that the Federation needs to steal to restore the balance of power. Now, if you want to do something like that you would engage spies and covert operators who could infiltrate the Romulan Empire by stealth and either steal the cloaking device or the plans for one. What you would not do is engage the Federation’s flagship where failure means not only do you lose your opportunity to get the cloaking device but you also lose (perhaps fatally) your frontline crew and your starship, enabling the Romulans to know “everything there is to know about a starship”. Not to mention that very real possibility that you would initiate a war for blatantly violating the Neutral Zone. In other words, you have chosen the action that results in the greatest loss for you if it fails.

Does the plan make sense? Not even close. I’m not even sure I know what the original plan was. There was no guarantee that the Romulans wouldn’t just blow the Enterprise up. Having spared the Enterprise, there’s no reason to think that the Romulan commander would invite anyone aboard her starship. What was in it for her and how could you predict that she would take such an action? But without inviting both Spock and Kirk aboard the ship, there is no way for the plan to succeed and disaster would ensue.

So who’s privy to this “plan”? Only two people: Spock and Kirk. Does Scottie know about it? No. But wait a second, who’s going to be in charge when Spock and Kirk are on the Romulan ship? Wouldn’t you want him to understand what’s going on and why? And who is responsible for installing the cloaking assuming they do manage to steal it? Scottie again. And you’re not going to tell him his job until 15 minutes are left to avoid destruction? Say, wouldn’t you want to let him in on this absurd plan just so that he could, I don’t know, work out as much as he could ahead of time? And who’s responsible for transforming Kirk into a Romulan? McCoy? And you’re not going to tell him ahead of time so he can figure out what needs to be done to make the change. Seriously?

But this is a very dramatic episode. You know that because every 5 minutes or so, you hear “dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb! dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb!” --- the audio cue that tells you that some serious is happening. “We’re surrounded by Romulans!” (dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb!) “Captain Kirk has been injured!” (dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb!). “The ship’s galley is out of rice pudding!! (dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb). Oh yes, Kirk has been killed by Spock. That’s dramatic, if for one second anyone in the audience actually believes that would happen in this show. I was shocked SHOCKED when I found out it wasn’t true! No, unbelievable events like Spock killing Kirk are not dramatic, only believable plausible events are. The great drama in "Amok Time" came from Spock's heartbreaking response to thinking he had killed Kirk, not from the action itself. Fake deaths are cheap way to create "drama" and are ultimately self-defeating.

I could go on about the stupidity of the Romulans (“don’t go down that corridor Mr. Spock, that’s where we keep our top-secret device which we wouldn’t want you to know where it is”) or the embarrassing romantic scenes that had DC Fontane apologize to Leonard Nimoy, telling him that she didn’t write those scenes in HER draft. But this is an overlong post already. 2 stars at best.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 5:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Paradise

Okay what the hell? There was no ending? Why did that psycho chick and her son beam up and leave when they were the only ones that wanted to stay there? This was by far the worst episode out of all of them I've seen since episode 1. That was such a waste of time watching that to have no ending.
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Tuvok's Brain
Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Threshold

There are many holes in this one, but I did find it kept you entertained and didn't think it merited zero stars. Many of commented that it was a riff on The Fly and that aspect worked OK for me.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 3:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Whispers

@Dave in MN and @Bobbington Mc Bob I agree with you regarding Elliott's reviews. I read a few when I first started watching DS9 but haven't since as they are so long as basically just a recap of what we just watched. I might as well read the plot summary on Wikipedia then. I agree though and do find it odd to write huge reviews in the comment section of someone else's blog instead of just making your own.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 1:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Bounty

'Fun tidbit from the DVD extras: John Billingsley actually asked the writers, “Why wouldn’t Phlox do it? He’s a doctor. She’s a patient. It’s a medical issue. He’d be professional about it.”'

Yep - that's the issue with this kind of titillation. It's not honest, and it's actually kind of prudish in itself; that is, it's too embarrassed by the actual business of sex to handle it properly. Why couldn't T'Pol just crack one off? How sexually repressed does a TV show have to be to fail to acknowledge that women masturbate?

I rate this kind of thing very low because I remember having exactly this kind of attitude to sex - when *I* was a teenager. That is, I wanted to talk about it, to experience it and understand other people's experiences of it, but I also knew it was unseemly, so I was constantly finding excuses to bring it up or hint at it while also pretending that I was being ironic or joking around, or that the subject was somehow unavoidable. I even remember writing fiction where characters lost all their clothes in hilarious mishaps - but wait, it's not dirty, honest, because everyone in the story is so embarrassed and proper about it.

Basically, half of this screenplay seems to have been written by Patrick Stewart's version of himself in Extras:

"They fall off, onto the ground, and she's scrabbling around to get them back on again, but before she can get her knickers on, I've seen everything."

I actually quite liked the other half of the story up to a point, mainly for reasons of continuity. It seems like it's building up Archer's relationship with the Klingons to be a major theme that keeps on becoming more and more complicated, and that gives me nice DS9 vibes. It was also nice to have an alien species with slightly more effort going into the prosthetics than facial ridges and discolouration.

In fact, the number of these different 'humans with wax on' species that we've been introduced to so far in Enterprise really undermines any sense that humanity is bringing anything novel to the universe. To all these other species, we must look curiously featureless - like they have everything that we have, and then something extra.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 12:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Nightingale

Harry's character was disastrously handled from start to finish.

* As a newly commissioned ensign, he had no business being anywhere near the senior officer table. There were at least five lieutenants on Voyager other than the main cast, and as many Starfleet ensigns who would have more seniority than him. He should have earned that place at Janeway's "grown-up table".

* He seemed to vacillate between being an excellent and capable officer and being a green ensign. Instead of having him grow from "lower decks goldshirt who doesn't have a clue" to "seasoned and competent senior officer", they just stuck him with the former's rank and the latter's duties and left him to stagnate.

* With the sole exception of Data, every single character on TNG and DS9 either ranked up in situ or was offered a promotion elsewhere (Picard to rear admiral and commandant, Riker to captain of his own ship). Voyager forgot how to do this. Harry is not the only victim of this (B'Elanna was stuck at JG for 7 years), but he's the worst. A competent ensign is supposed to be promoted to lieutenant, full stop. The rationale was "someone has to be the ensign", but that was false. TNG only had a commissioned ensign in its main cast briefly (Wesley), and DS9 never had one at all.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 12:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Whispers

Forgot to mention in my post as well that I'm really sick of this O'Brien guy as well as we just had the last episode be focused on him. He's my least favourite character on the whole show, so hoping we don't have to keep seeing him for a bit now.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 12:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Whispers

I haven't read anyone else's reviews yet, but damn 4 stars? I've never watched DS9 before but doing a marathon on it, and this episode almost had me turning it off halfway through and giving up on the series. The whole "the crew is possessed" or whatever stuff has been done so many times before, that I just kept thinking how are they going to wrap this up? I just wanted him to kill himself or something to shut them all up it was so annoying. Even the twist at the end was barely that, as the entire episode I kept thinking either the crew is possessed or has a parasite or something, OR it's O'Brien that is having a mental breakdown or something wrong with him especially once the Admiral kept telling him to go back. So when it was shown that he was actually a clone it wasn't even a big revelation at all.

I'm curious though, when everyone would say just go back to DS9, you won't be hurt, I wonder if that's actually true. I doubt the real O'Brien would be cool having a perfect clone of himself kicking around (Keiko might not mind though :P).
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 12:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Twisted

Hard to believe Janeway really thought Harry was a worthy officer when she left him stuck at ensign for 7 years... she should have either kept her mouth shut or put her lieutenant pips where her mouth was.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 12:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Thine Own Self

I just want to say that if I were in Geordi's position, and someone like Troi did that "icy b****" routine ordering me to certain death... I would laugh in her face on principle. How you gonna throw me in the brig when we're all a dispersing cloud of ions?

If she was a little more empathetic, i.e. how she normally treats people, I'd probably do it. Needs of the many and all that.

And while I was fine with Deanna trying to become a commander, Data should have received that rank as well. He'd still be second officer because Riker (who should have been kicked upstairs after BoBW2) is still first. But it would indicate his status and Picard's confidence in him, and he wouldn't have to call Troi "sir".
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:42am (UTC -5)
Re: ANDR S1: D Minus Zero

@Jammer, the quote you picked - "Blind and crippled. If Andromeda were my child, I'd drown it" - I remember that as the exact moment 20 years ago that I knew I had to watch Andromeda. That this was a show for me :)

So funny that you couldn't fathom at the time what Trance's purpose was in the show. Of course now we know. But back then, that wonderful top was purpose enough for me ;) It was 20 years ago. We were just human. All too human.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:33am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Desert Crossing

All that being said though, everything we see here is done far better on DS9 anyway.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:30am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S1: Desert Crossing

I feel very much the same as this review on most of the episode, though I'd disagree on the need to "both sides" the conflict here. Archer's final line is fitting (though might have benefitted from less time spent on the pointless survival plot) for how it illustrates that while individual captains may feel a certain way, they still can't go interfering with outside conflicts. I did appreciate how this followed on from 'Detained', which itself had built off previous encounters with the Suliban. It's not exactly groundbreaking, but after just coming off Voyager, any kind of continuity between episodes feels miraculous.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:22am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Robert Meyer Burnett discusses with Melinda Snodgrass about how "Picard" references her TNG episode "Measure Of A Man" and uses characters (Maddox) without crediting her (and paying her residuals):
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Karl Zimmerman
Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 7:12am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

I do not understand the argument that Lower Decks is "not canon" or "not Star Trek."

First, there's of course the distinction to be made between canon and continuity, which people often confuse. Canon just means whatever the licence holder says counts. This is why Star Trek books have never been canon, and TAS became non-canon during the TNG era (and seems to have slowly been embraced once again). A story can make logical sense within the Trekverse continuity without being canon. Elements of the Trek timeline also outright conflict due to writer error (like say Chekov knowing Khan in TWOK) but it doesn't screw up the canonical status of either work, Or I guess you could bring up the entire Kelvinverse, which clearly isn't in the Prime Timeline, but is still part of canon.

So the real question is if Lower Decks is within the continuity of earlier Trek shows. I don't see an issue here either. Unlike say the Short Trek Ephraim and Dot there is no Looney Toons style physics on display. I didn't see any breaking of the fourth wall either. It's a bit silly, but is it any sillier so far than a giant amoeba that eats planets, meeting the literal god Apollo, a giant glowy hand in space, Rumpelstiltskin, etc I don't see what stretches credulity here.

Unless, I suppose, people are angry at how the crew acts. I find this aspect of the show completely believable however. Comparing the show with TNG in terms of crew competence is not fair because The Enterprise was/is the flagship of all of Starfleet, and thus should have the "best of the best." The Cerritos is purposefully made out to be a smaller, fairly insignificant ship, so having a crew which is a bit less exemplary is understandable. Add to this that the show is from the POV of the ensigns. Much like the TNG episode Lower Decks recast the crew we love as distant and somewhat intimidating figures, we're not seeing the bridge crew here (yet) at their best. The ensigns themselves are assuredly not nasty or nihilistic people either. They have personality quirks, but they're competent and do the best they can to support one another.

So yeah, I can understand how someone would not enjoy the show for its pacing, or humor. I can't understand saying it's "not Star Trek."
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:22am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

"We seem to be further from Star Trek's future than ever."

Star Trek always postulated that things need to get far worse, before they will get better.

So now things are getting worse. Which just means that it's even more important to remain hopeful and remember Trek's original vision for humanity's future.

After all, in the Trekverse, humanity suffered through a Eugenic War, an economic collapse, Sanctuary Districts, The Bell Riots and World War III, yet everything ended up okay in the end.

If they could make it to the bright future shown in TOS and TNG, so can we.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:04am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

"Anyone who doesn't like it 'lacks social skills'? What a petty, childish thing to say."

Well, we're Trekkies, aren't we ;-)

We are also snobbish nerds who never laugh at anything, live in our parent's basement and need to get a life.

Seriously, though, these remarks tell you everything you need to know about the current state of the franchise, doesn't it?

@Dave in MN
"Either this show is bringing in a while new crowd of commenters or there's some kind of organized campaign going on. It'll be fascinating to find out which logical possibility is the truth. "

It's probably a combination of both.

But who cares, really? Either way, it is obvious that the vast majority of these commenters is not interested in an actual discussion. 80% of their stuff is personal attacks and the other 20% of their stuff is empty praise of the kind of "this show is the greatest thing evar!!!!!".
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 2:11am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Well, it definitely wasn't funny. As I suspected, the humor is very hyperactive and fast-talking but lacks any actual wit; it's the way """"quirky""" white people act in TV commercials. Also I thought we learned from Family Guy that references alone do not count as jokes.

That said, I didn't completely hate it. It looks really nice. I kinda like the dynamic between Mariner and Bueller, the green girl and the cyborg not so much (see above). I like the cat doctor, kind of a Bones-y vibe.

I like that there's a plot that's spread out between an actual cast of characters, instead of everything revolving around a fucking Micheal Burnham. I like that it's a serialized format that doesn't hinge on taking a massive dump on established canon and characters like STP, though there's plenty of time for that.

I definitely don't like many of the comments I've seen from people who like the show. Anyone who doesn't like it "lacks social skills"? What a petty, childish thing to say.

Anyway for a comedy show the humor falls completely flat and as a parody it mostly boils down to "hey remember WORF!?" so that's a pretty terrible foundation for a Trek show. I'm willing to concede that there might be a couple of legitimately good episodes tucked away in the season but I sure as hell wouldn't pay to watch it.
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Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 2:02am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

You guys are wrong. It's a great show. Christian Blauvelt's review on IndieWire says it may be the most Trek series ever.
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