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Peter G.
Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 12:55pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Chrome,

I think you hit the issue with this:

"As the episode plays out, though, Janeway's word is law"

This is a general issue with Voyager. Not exactly a design flaw since basically they wanted a TNG-style weekly adventure, but a flaw if you're looking at the show objectively for realism. A ship such as Voyager, lost and away from Starfleet, would *have to* establish a legal system and a court system for trying cases. It simply could not actually function having the Captain both running the ship and also being the law, because that's a direct conflict of interest between the person wanting to make the decisions versus also being everyone's de facto counsel and judge. Now since the show premise is more simple than all this and they never ask "but who takes the legal side of the crew or passengers when they disagree" we end up with absurd situations where Janeway IS THE LAW, Judge Dredd style. But that's sort of an artifact of 'this is a weekly fun show' rather than any kind of statement about 'this is how ships like this would really function'. I don't think it helps us to try to analyze how Voyager's power structure maps onto real power structures in our era because they writers are not trying to depict a power structure at all.
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Chrome
Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 11:38am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

Right, a Starfleet officer isn't property per se, but I think Yanks could make the argument that enlisting in Starfleet obliges you to certain rules and commitments the average civilian doesn't have (which might include, yes, self-sacrifice in the line of duty). I don't really know what category Tuvix falls into in terms of duty (and the episode itself isn't complex enough to ask this question). However, Tuvix does serve as a Starfleet officer and therefore may also be obligated to follow the rules and commitments .

As the episode plays out, though, Janeway's word is law, so even if Starfleet had certain regulations one way or the other, I'm pretty certain the crew as a whole has decided to let this big question be ultimately decided by the captain.
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Bobbington Mc Bob
Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 7:46am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: Spock's Brain

I am fascinated with the idea of being one of those star trek hipsters that tries to argue that dreadful episodes are actually good for reasons you all missed, but with material this bad everyone would be able to tell I was lying to myself. This is TOS' equivalent of TNG "Conspiracy", an episode so off kilter that it feels like its being shuttled in from another, inferior, sci-fi show. Maybe they accidentally switched the scripts between Lost In Space for this one. Was there originally a character called Dr Zachary Smith?
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Bobbington Mc Bob
Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 6:29am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: A Taste of Armageddon

I honestly thought General Order 24 was going to be revealed to be "Keep hallways clear of mop buckets at all times to avoid trip hazards" - a huge Kirkian bluff. Turns out Starfleet really does have an Armageddon Order.

Nice episode, I liked the tone of the acting, which was a lot more measured than some of the hamminess of "Court Martial". You can feel star trek gradually becoming Star Trek, and laying the foundation for hundreds of future episodes of TNG, DS9 and siblings. Not VOY though, whose quality control procedure was lifted directly from the making of "Spock's Brain".

Just kidding. Well, only a bit.
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Trish
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 8:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: Metamorphosis

So Nancy Hedford had no friends, relatives, or colleagues who would have liked the opportunity to visit her, or at least communicate with her? It was all right to tell them that she was dead, even though she is actually alive as half of a joined being, not because she asked to drop out of sight, but because Cochrane did?
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Brendan
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 5:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Cardassians

I won't wade into the politics of this episode, but I wanted to bring up something that's always bothered me...

The scene in Ops where Sisko slaps Bashir down is really harsh. Bashir being belittled, in full view of the senior staff, is extremely jarring to me. Sisko's reaction to Bashir asking a couple of questions is way over the top IMO.

...and I say this as a guy who actually very much dislikes the character of Bashir but I felt for him here!
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MadBaggins
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 4:38pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S6: Riddles

Do the people complaining about "PC" even know what the fuck they're talking about?
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Bobbington Mc Bob
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 4:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: A Taste of Armageddon

DEPLOY THE SILLY HATS
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Booming
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 3:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Yanks
A soldier is not the property of the military. There is military law which is somewhat different but that's it. You don't become a slave when you join. :)
But to be perfectly honest being a soldier sometimes felt like being in servitude...
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Peter G.
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Yanks,

"From a purely military perspective, Tuvix was on her ship so I believe that by default that made him Star Fleet property and Janeway's responsibility."

I doubt any human being, even in our era, would legally be considered to be property. In the U.S. that would probably violate the 14th, but more properly I think if the word "property" were ever used in conjunction with a person in a modern society there would probably be a revolution.

"My biggest issue with this episode is still Tuvik's reaction. We know he know's how Neelix feels for Kes, and we know he has Tuvok's memories... so for these not to influence him at the end was an unreasonable reaction/action."

We don't know that having the memories of some people automatically means you'd react how they do. But maybe more importantly, it doesn't follow that if Neelix would do something, and if Tuvok might do the same thing, that having the combination of both of their DNA and memories means you'd likewise do the same thing. The mix of them might well produce a very different result. But fundamentally I don't really see the relevance of examining what they would have done in his place, because all that gets us is *at best* an evaluation of him not being as noble as they are. Be that as it may I don't really see it as relevant to whether Janeway did the right thing. I think its chief relevance in terms of the episode is that it forced Janeway to not get off easy with her decision, but rather had to face the full force of knowing she was choosing for someone to die in addition to saving two others. The reality is that when choosing someone to die a Captain should *always* be keeping in mind that they want to live; in this case it had to be spelled out for her because she wasn't really treating him as a person but rather as a mistake to be corrected.
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Peter G.
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: Image in the Sand

@ Jason R,,

I think you replied in the wrong thread...
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Jason R.
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:37pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: Image in the Sand

I am no expert in military law but I doubt servicemembers are the "property" of the military.
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borusa
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 11:53am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Liaisons

Michael Dorn almost redeems this episode but the space Misery storyline needed Cathy Bates and James Caan not the avuncular Patrick Stewart and whoever Anna was.
It may have helped if Anna had called Picard a 'naughty bird' before smashing his legs with a sledgehammer and given him a novel to write.
'Love Me,LOVE ME!' -OMG,that was unintentionally hilarious wasn't it?

No stars, 3 ion storms from me.
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Yanks
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 11:06am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

HAHA..... thanks.

I guess that sort of means that the crew in Star Fleet aren't considered property either?
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Chrome
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 11:01am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

Yanks wrote:

"Whether Data is Star Fleet property of not was never determined. Judge Phillipa gave Data the "right to choose". (dodging all the tough questions like sentience) Data and all the officers and crew are the property of Star Fleet."

From The Measure of a Man:
"PHILLIPA: Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No."

I don't think you're giving TNG's writers enough credit. ;-)
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Yanks
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 10:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: Image in the Sand

Peter G.
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:11am (UTC -5)

"That said I find it amazing that the amount of complaints DS9 in particular gets that comes from all sides. Some people don't like the pretense of being beyond economics and claim that the Federation as stated is a bunch of nonsense; therefore the criticisms of the Ferengi green are ill-founded. Others argue that DS9 puts way too much emphasis on Jake getting a job, and here on the Sisko restaurant being some kind of throwback to capitalism. No matter what Trek does it will either be too fantastical or not fantastical enough, so it's hard to win under those conditions."

DS9 gets no more of less than any other Trek series. ... and for the record I don't ever remember seeing any form of payment in Sisko's restaurant.
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Yanks
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 10:23am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Peter G.
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:04pm (UTC -5)
"Admitting this point as relevant would require admitting one other point into relevance: that Tuvix was a member of the ship's crew. Asserting this point is quite a big deal and requires actually repudiating most of the arguments made in favor of Janeway's decision (i.e. that Tuvix wasn't really an individual but just two crewmen smooshed together; or that this is really just a sort of medical problem for Neelix and Tuvok that needs repairing). And if sacrificing Tuvix can be justified by virtue of him being a member of the crew, who in turn are completely under the command of the Captain (a point in which I agree with you completely, and the dangers of which are frequently examined in TOS but rarely later), what happens if the crew member resigns their commission rather than obey, as Data tried to do in Measure of a Man? I would think the overwhelming opinion in Measure of a Man was that Data was being treated unjustly; first because he was going to be destroyed 'for science', but more importantly because he wasn't going to be allowed to resign. The latter point could only be justified if he was considered to be Starfleet property, which the hearing finally determined he was not. He didn't in fact have to resign as it appeared that Cdr. Maddox withdrew his transfer order once he saw the quagmire he was in."

Whether Data is Star Fleet property of not was never determined. Judge Phillipa gave Data the "right to choose". (dodging all the tough questions like sentience) Data and all the officers and crew are the property of Star Fleet. (just like soldiers and saliors are today) Maddox's angle was Data was no different that the "Enterprise's computer", because Data was not flesh and blood (hardware).

"Getting back to Tuvix, is he Starfleet property? If not, why can't he resign rather than obey an order? Starfleet Captains have no jurisdiction as far as I know to require civilian passengers to undertake life-threatening experiments. All of this has been granting the assumption that Tuvix is in fact a member of the crew, which your point #3 requires. But let's say he isn't one: after all, he's a seemingly new life form of a new species (Vulcan/Talaxian blend), who despite having the memories of two crew members (remember: Data has the memories of an entire colony) has never interacted with this crew before. Due to his skills he apparently volunteers to help out with duties he can do well, but as far as I can tell Janeway goes along with this more out of whimsy (heck, why not?) than out of deciding to give him an official commission with Tuvok's old rank. So I don't really see any sign that he's conscripted into Starfleet in this episode. I also don't know if I accept that the Voyager is in a crisis during this episode, nor that by being stranded this ship is 'perpetually in crisis' because that would basically mean the Captain could invoke "emergency measures" at her whim regardless of how stable or unstable the situation is, and that doesn't sit easy with me. Compard to most of the races they meet I think the Voyager crew is doing just fine. Actually this is a chief complain of some viewers, especially BG fans, which is that VOY should have had a lot more of the ship in trouble and lacking things (re: infinite shuttles). Considering they seem to usually have enough of everything I doubt I would accept that an emergency condition here warranted sacrificing someone; unless the emergency in question is "Neelix and Tuvok are in trouble." And in that case we revert back to the original question, which is whether it's acceptable to summarily sacrifice an unwilling civilian because Janeway prefers to have her two colleagues back instead."

From a purely military perspective, Tuvix was on her ship so I believe that by default that made him Star Fleet property and Janeway's responsibility. But I also believe the situation Tuvok and Neelix were in certainly falls under "an emergency" just as any crew-member in peril would for the Captain. (until it is determined that they could not be separated)

But obviously, Doc found a solution, so she really had no choice but to serve her two crew-mates.

My biggest issue with this episode is still Tuvik's reaction. We know he know's how Neelix feels for Kes, and we know he has Tuvok's memories... so for these not to influence him at the end was an unreasonable reaction/action.
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Chrome
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 10:02am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S6: Who Mourns for Morn?

Maybe Morn *did* have lines but we just didn’t hear them as they were muffled by his suit?
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trill me not
Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 2:25am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S6: Who Mourns for Morn?

@chrome... he didn't have lines because that's the joke... paramount wasn't being cheap... i knew people who worked there and i can tell you that wasnt the case... you're talking about a show that had like 30 recurring characters... tossing morn a line here and there wouldn't have broken the bank... it was much more charming that he never spoke but you always heard how he never shuts up... plus the makeup was not the best for talking... he just moved his eyes for a reason... he started out as a minor joke in the background then just grew... it was organic and funny and worked perfectly

great fun episode... 3 to 3.5 stars
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Trish
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ascent

I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the generally positive reactions to this episode. It just doesn't do much for me. It seems like an hour of exposition.

"Show me, don't tell me." But the dialog is mostly the characters in the adversarial/bosom buddies pairs TELLING what they are and how they see each other. Despite the painfully high stakes for Odo and Quark, there really isn't much of a plot, and what little there is has holes in it like Swiss cheese. (Not only, as Quarkissnyder said above, is there no way they'd survive without water, but they should be suffering from altitude sickness, which makes dehydration even worse. The whole point in climbing the mountain is to get to thinner air.)

And yes, after Odo is injured, it should be perfectly obvious to them both (and to the writer, and to us) that Quark should continue the ascent alone. If their plan works, a rescue ship will come and can use its scanners to locate Odo, apparently the only other humanoid on the planet. If it doesn't, their mutual problem will soon reach its dire resolution.

I have nothing against a good bromance. Heck, they could have thrown in a C plot with Bashir and O'Brien. But even a character story needs a story.
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C.T. Phipps
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Birthright, Part II

Guys, it's a prison camp.

These guys were kidnapped from their colony, put in a detention camp, and forced to live there for decades. Their children have grown up in bondage and any hybrid children born aren't there entirely willingly if just due to the power dynamic. This is no different than Bajorans living under Cardassian rule.
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Jordy
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:41pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: The Void

I can't believe no-one has namechecked Jonathan Del Arco.
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Mirror worf
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: The Emperor's New Cloak

"Your Intendent needs you."
Ha!
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Peter G.
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Q,

I find your point #3 interesting and definitely worth discussion. I would like to highlight this aspect that you brought up:

"It's the privilege of every captain to decide when an emergency warrants the sacrifice of a member of the crew."

Admitting this point as relevant would require admitting one other point into relevance: that Tuvix was a member of the ship's crew. Asserting this point is quite a big deal and requires actually repudiating most of the arguments made in favor of Janeway's decision (i.e. that Tuvix wasn't really an individual but just two crewmen smooshed together; or that this is really just a sort of medical problem for Neelix and Tuvok that needs repairing). And if sacrificing Tuvix can be justified by virtue of him being a member of the crew, who in turn are completely under the command of the Captain (a point in which I agree with you completely, and the dangers of which are frequently examined in TOS but rarely later), what happens if the crew member resigns their commission rather than obey, as Data tried to do in Measure of a Man? I would think the overwhelming opinion in Measure of a Man was that Data was being treated unjustly; first because he was going to be destroyed 'for science', but more importantly because he wasn't going to be allowed to resign. The latter point could only be justified if he was considered to be Starfleet property, which the hearing finally determined he was not. He didn't in fact have to resign as it appeared that Cdr. Maddox withdrew his transfer order once he saw the quagmire he was in.

Getting back to Tuvix, is he Starfleet property? If not, why can't he resign rather than obey an order? Starfleet Captains have no jurisdiction as far as I know to require civilian passengers to undertake life-threatening experiments. All of this has been granting the assumption that Tuvix is in fact a member of the crew, which your point #3 requires. But let's say he isn't one: after all, he's a seemingly new life form of a new species (Vulcan/Talaxian blend), who despite having the memories of two crew members (remember: Data has the memories of an entire colony) has never interacted with this crew before. Due to his skills he apparently volunteers to help out with duties he can do well, but as far as I can tell Janeway goes along with this more out of whimsy (heck, why not?) than out of deciding to give him an official commission with Tuvok's old rank. So I don't really see any sign that he's conscripted into Starfleet in this episode. I also don't know if I accept that the Voyager is in a crisis during this episode, nor that by being stranded this ship is 'perpetually in crisis' because that would basically mean the Captain could invoke "emergency measures" at her whim regardless of how stable or unstable the situation is, and that doesn't sit easy with me. Compard to most of the races they meet I think the Voyager crew is doing just fine. Actually this is a chief complain of some viewers, especially BG fans, which is that VOY should have had a lot more of the ship in trouble and lacking things (re: infinite shuttles). Considering they seem to usually have enough of everything I doubt I would accept that an emergency condition here warranted sacrificing someone; unless the emergency in question is "Neelix and Tuvok are in trouble." And in that case we revert back to the original question, which is whether it's acceptable to summarily sacrifice an unwilling civilian because Janeway prefers to have her two colleagues back instead.
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Q
Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

I have been giving consideration to the legality of Tuvix's death at the hands of Captain Janeway. In the case of Voyager, there are three legal ways to look at this:

1) The JAG Officer. I do not believe Voyager had a JAG officer appointed, so no legal opinion was available at the time. If this incident took place in the Alpha quadrant, I think the issue would have been taken up by the Starfleet JAG corps, absent an emergency (see #3).

2) From the point-of-view of the Doctor, Tuvix was a sentient life form and he correctly decided he could not forcibly take his life, absent a court-issued death sentence conviction. He may have performed the procedure under protest if the Captain ordered him to anyway, but she did not. The Doctor undoubtedly made a medical log entry documenting the incident.

3) With respect to Peter G., it is a long-standing rule that the Captain is master and commander of their vessel with absolute and unquestioned authority over, and responsibility for, the ship, cargo and crew. It's the privilege of every captain to decide when an emergency warrants the sacrifice of a member of the crew. Who can deny there was an emergency? Voyager was stuck in a remote and hostile part of space and the two members of her crew that were made unavailable by the transporter incident were deemed essential personnel by her captain.

The decision to terminate the life of Tuvix was justified using #3. Janeway's actions (and the Doctor's logs) would of course be reviewed by the Admiralty at a convenient time and place. As we saw both in the first part of Endgame (which occurred after Tuvix and before the timeline change) and in Nemesis (which also occurred after Tuvix and presumably -but not necessarily- after the timeline change), she was promoted to an Admiral rank. If the Admiralty disagreed with her decision about Tuvix (which I personally doubt they did), it was not enough of an error to preclude her from being promoted.

The worse case scenario for Janeway here would be a reprimand for her decision. The probable case scenario is either a decision of justifiable homicide in an emergency situation with no adverse action taken, or no comment or discussion about the incident at all. In either instance, it probably made for a good debate in an ethics of command class at Starfleet Academy.
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