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Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 11:59am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

@Karl
hahaha. I don't know if you are trolling but this a bogus article, not an actual scientific paper.

So if your neighbor would somehow research you very indepth and then create a model of you that could be considered a realistic copy only to fuck that copy. You think that should be legal?
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Karl
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 11:08am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

The people complaining about sexual harassment and "obtuse sexual unawareness" in Star Trek due to the "teenage boy audience" remind me of this academic paper from the grievance studies affair: http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/masturbation_as_violence.pdf

Quick summary being "men masturbating while thinking of women qualifies as sexual assault".

Geordie didn't do that to Brahms (as far as we know) but even if he did, so what? People of all genders do it. They also research personal details sometimes to fit into their fantasies. Obviously there is a line where it becomes too personal, but most people don't cross that line. Otherwise, we would have to shut down all celebrity fan clubs. If a woman has a hot and heavy moment while fantasizing about a Ryan Gosling photo or a fanfic someone wrote, does that mean she (or the person who wrote the fanfic) is sexually harassing him?

We shouldn't be thought police, but we can punish people's actions if those actions violate norms that are deemed to be punishable. I don't see how Geordie's actions qualify as "sexual harassment". Calling it "sexual harassment" or "obtuse sexual unawareness" only serves to dilute instances of real sexual harassment.

The only potential criticism here is that using the holodeck to recreate someone's likeness seems like it could violate some 24th century privacy or copyright laws, but that question could be asked of the fanfic example. If the person's likeness isn't being used for sales, then I'm not sure there's a strong enough legal justification to prosecute in this case.
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Peter G.
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 10:35am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Half a Life

@ Garlaxor,

"That ethical story is about the conflict between the comforts of tradition and their morality."

That's a sort of funny take on it, since the only instance we see of a guy hitting 60 is that it is distinctly *not* comfortable to him to follow this tradition. But I'm not sure tradition is the right word; I think it's better just called a law. The premise of the episode we have to swallow is, I think, a reference to so-called overpopulation. This planet is somewhat like China in that it requires a law to restrict the population level for sustainability purposes. There is a moral component, but the conflict is between the needs of the society versus individual rights. I think we have to accept it as a fact that if this law is stuck down then the planet *will* have problems and many might suffer. If this is not true then the episode really loses all its steam. So under the assumption that it is true, each individual has got to accept a personal sacrifice for the good of all. Far from being a mere tradition, this makes it a supreme moral act to comply with the law from the point of view of the society. Since Lwaxana is an staunch individualist (and an aristocrat) naturally she views her own freedom as the ultimate good.

In fact when pitting these two values against each other I don't at all see a clear-cut line where one is more right than the other. It is surely the case that if each individual did whatever they wanted the society would be in big trouble. In this particular society the restrictions needed on individual license are perhaps stricter than they would be elsewhere, but even so there is no place there freedom vs social good is not a problem. What I think places this particular planet on the questionable side is the sort of calm acceptance of what is essentially the wholesale murder of all old people. It's sort of like fixing the social security problem by ensuring no one ever collects it because they're dead. Even though tonally they are different, the moral dilemma here reminds me most of A Taste of Armageddon, where similarly a 'social good' is pursued through the efficient and cold murder of entire segments of the populace.
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Trent
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 10:31am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: For the Cause

Mal said: "@Trent, why do you think this will be the last time?"

I just don't see myself rewatching it. It's a big time commitment, and I have memories of the show jumping the shark pretty badly in the final season.

But who knows. I get weird Trek urges out of the blue. I'd go months or years without thinking about Trek, and then suddenly feel the urge to revisit a certain show or season.
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spinalatte
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:50am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Endgame

I watched 20 episodes during the original run, and watched the entire series from start to finish over 6 months. I didn’t expect much as my die hard ST friends were unrelenting on their hatred of the series. Well, I can say that 20 years later, some episodes were stinkers, but I enjoyed the series. I grew to care about the characters, rooted for them in their struggles, and wanted to see them get home. I do feel like SciFi series have a certain shelf life and I feel like 3 years seems to be the maximum that the writers can be original without getting too goofy. I grew tired of BSG’s religious undertones, hinting at ghosts, and the supernatural. Star Trek likes to throw in weird time travel, Q, holodeck malfunctions, and shuttle crashes. No matter, we are not trying to cure cancer, we are trying to entertain, and it was still much more intelligent than so-called reality TV.

Voyager, I was entertained, and although you frustrated me many times, I will miss the feeling I had when watching the episodes for the first time. Adieu, and welcome home!
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Yanks
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

A special preview of episode 3 here at the end of 'The Ready Room'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR33vUxPxjk

I'm not too happy with 'The Burn' stuff...
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Tomalak
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@SlackerInc "Not a fan of the comments about Tilly’s weight. That doesn’t mean I’m telling anyone they don’t have a right to say anything about it, but I also have a right not to like what they say."

Of course you do. This would be a boring discussion forum if we couldn't disagree! What do you dislike about them out of interest?
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Mike
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:35am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I'm not sure. There are of course episodes totally focused on what the right action is, like Worf's back injury and the Tuvix episode, as well as In The Pale Moonlight. But those are fairly rare, and I suppose I always saw a Starfleet officer as someone to be idealized and looked up to, could be expected to act virtuously. And I mean the whole vision of the future that Star Trek presents could be said to be about the ideal way to live, what a good society or workplace would look like, of character traits. I know that virtue ethics deals with these matters, not just right and wrong actions.
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Trent
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:09am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: The Muse

A weak episode, "Muse" watches as Jake's creative energies get kindled by an alien vampire. While he gives birth to a novel, Lwaxana Troi visits the station and gives birth to a child. The episode spends most of its running time juxtaposing Jake's relationship with the alien (she inspires him, and his creative energies arouse her), with Odo's relationship with Lwaxana (she brings Odo out of his shell, and she falls in love with him).

Some good scenes here, like one in which Odo plays hide-and-seek with Lwaxana, and scenes of Jake flirting like some kind of bohemian artist (always attracting older women, the kid really is a smooth operator). But as Jammer says, this is one of DS9's worst episodes. The Jake plot is unintentionally funny, and Lwaxana Troi, despite a strong, opinionated character, has a sexist streak about her, her episodes too often revolving around her being pregnant, or needing men, or getting married, or losing kids etc, her character stereotyped around her biology.

IMO the Jake story - a writer inspired by a muse - should also have been played straight, without supernatural overtones and hilarious sexual metaphors ("Oh baby, yeah, use your artist energy to write that novel. Yeah, ohh, work that pen! Baby, you're so creative! Do me Jake! Do me a well edited, 10,000 word novel!).

The technobabble is also particularly cringey, particularly those which attempt to metaphorically describe the process of artistic creation ( "Something has stimulated Jake's brain functioning in a way that I have never seen!" Bashir yells, "The capillaries in his cerebral cortex have dilated twenty percent. Neurotransmitter production is up by at least that amount, and neural activity is off the scale!").
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Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 8:23am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@ Mike
I just meant what philosophical outlook guided it.
So you think it is about virtue ethics, not consequentialism (utilitarian) or deontology ?
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SlackerInc
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 7:16am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Good episode. I fully cosign Mal’s three star writeup.

Not a fan of the comments about Tilly’s weight. That doesn’t mean I’m telling anyone they don’t have a right to say anything about it, but I also have a right not to like what they say.
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Mike
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 7:05am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Good question. IF there could ever be said to be an ethical focus to Trek, it would be Greek and not modern ethics (morality) - and I'm extremely thankful for that..I studied that deontology/utilitarian distinction at law school and it always seemed to me a giant load of enlightenment-era B.S.

But I think if ethics were the central focus of Star Trek, old or new, I would have lost interest in the show long ago. Same with what someone else in another thread said about Starfleet ideals being about "America".
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Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:16am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

To outline it a bit more.
Star Trek was always about doing the right thing, because they believe it to be right, the consequences are of less importance. (Deontology)

NuTrek on the other hand is always saying stuff like we are family or we love each other and that is why we do things, which is utilitarian.
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Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:12am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Ok so maybe I'm wrong on this but it is bubbling around my head for a while.
To condense it in a question. Did old Star Trek revolve around deontology and does NuTrek revolve around utilitarianism? And is that the reason that NuTrek feels more hollow (The USA is a nation governed by utilitarianism, I would argue)?

Here a vid for deontology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ&list=PL30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=6&ab_channel=HarvardUniversity

Here a vid for utlitarianism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY&list=PL30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=1&ab_channel=HarvardUniversity
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Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 4:12am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Cody
That was a quote from tomalak. I forgot to add the @tomalak line.
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Unicorn
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 4:05am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Ruomyes
"If the new Trek programmes are trying to encourage us to feel, and feel more, it's because qualities like empathy are sorely needed in today's world, now, if there is ever to be a future world like Trek."

Why would anybody want to live in the hellish world that modern Trek depicts?

Food for thought.
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Garlaxor
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 3:41am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Half a Life

Interesting to see people rate this down because they disagreed with the 60 age and planetary custom. Or because it was a Lwuxana episode. It goes with my theory that when people watch these shows, they form prototypes of what a “good ep” and “bad ep” are.
For example, some people toss out the “bad ep” tag if a character they don’t like is prominent. Others can say “good ep” if the social issue being discussed agrees with them, but “bad ep” if they find it “silly”.
I think once each of us confront our own biases when reviewing episodes, we can step back and analyze them. For example, my biases are tied up with expectations. Generally, if an episode surprises me, I will rate it more extremely, good or bad, depending on how it goes. Because of this I probably fall for simple twist plotting on occasion if the rest of an episode agreed with me.

Back to this episode... for those struggling with the 60 year age setup and the realism of the political dynamic, just accept it as necessary script work to place the ethical story in the foreground. That ethical story is about the conflict between the comforts of tradition and their morality.
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Ensign Healy
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 1:47am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Startrekwatcher, your assessment of Kurtzman as a writer and show runner on 10/23 at 12:33 pm is spot on. I couldn’t have said it better myself. You crystallized and articulated many of my frustrations with his handling of Star Trek Disco and Picard. Kurtzman should take lessons from John Favreau and how he is running The Mandalorian. Now there is a serialized show that has great writing, action, characterization, and real tight, focused storytelling. Complete opposite of Kurtzman and new trek. Same can be said of Cobra Kai and that production team. Now if only Favreau and the Cobra Kai group could bring their talents to Star Trek, then the franchise would be great and engaging again, boldly And brilliantly going into the 21st century and taking us devoted trekkers along for a thrilling ride.
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Peter G.
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 1:27am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Tapestry

@ SlackerInc,

Maybe this is just a terminology thing. In terms of the plot I might agree that it's a little pat that Picard's entire life would hinge on one single decision in a bar, although still it's not impossible. But I think the plot in this case is just the crowning moment of Q's lesson more so than the specific moment on which Picard's life would turn. True, he got into a fight and was stabbed, but more broadly Picard seems to wish that he had been a different kind of young man; not just in that one incident, but throughout his youth. His current taste for discipline, seriousness, and a stiff upper lip gives him the idea to romanticize about what it would have been like to have been like that from the start. It's not so very different from the "if only I could go back to high school now and do it differently" dream. But Q's point is that the very person wanting this was necessitated by that exact past. Change the past and you eliminate the person doing the wishing into...who knows who. In this case if Picard had his wish and had never been brash and bold *ever* (not just in the bar) then this might have been his future. And I think that's entirely a reasonable hypothesis. Only if you look at the bar fight as being the single thing Picard would change does it become a little hokey to suppose that it would magically transform his life. But I think the plot we're shown is meant to support the bigger picture of Picard's entire life arc and why he needed to go through all of that to get where he got. Sure, if he could keep his life exactly the same, just minus being stabbed, maybe he'd have still made Captain. But that's the point: in order to be the sort of person who'd have never gotten into the fight, he'd also not have been the man to win the Academy marathon or to spoil for command.
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SlackerInc
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 1:06am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Tapestry

@Peter G: I'm definitely not saying that. What I AM saying is that I don't accept the idea that if Picard had not gotten into a brawl with these miscreants and gotten stabbed through the heart, he would have become some milquetoast dead-end lieutenant. The implication being that he was wrong as an older man to think it would have been much better not to spoil for such a fight. It doesn't even make sense within the context of the story, since he says the incident made him learn the lesson not to be so reckless--yet we are then told that it is because he was MORE willing to be reckless that he rose up through the ranks.
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Mike
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Sen-sors

"Georgiou is way, way beyond the sort of character who has done bad but may come around to being an ally for good. Her whole life has been violence, brutality and a quest for power for it's own sake. She has yet to show any of the depth or nuance found in Dukat, Baltar or even Q. She's a cartoon, and it is a waste of a talented actress.

A show with better writers could perhaps pull off a gradual turn in her character, but they would have had to start earlier, in season 2. I really don't think the current crop of STD writers can pull it off, which is why I'm leaning towards a schmaltzy self-sacrifice during a season finale. That's easy and dumb and it's like Star Wars. "

I think you're absolutely right. Other shows have been able to pull off huge character transformations from "evil" to "good", but I don't see Discovery doing it.

My favorite is Garibaldi's arc in Babylon 5, where he goes from approving planetary bombardment to seeking forgiveness and paying a huge price for his actions, but from that very first moment the viewer is deeply engaged with his internal process and is therefore able to empathize with it.

Georgiou has no depth, we have no idea what is going on for her internally (I imagine it's something like "ahahahah, I'm so evil and I enjoy stamping people's brains out") and even if she were to somehow redeem herself I can't see myself giving a shit about it anyway.
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dave
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

If "the burn" ends up being caused by Discovery's time travel and BURNham saves the day and there is a massive reset button and there is a thriving Federation as if nothing happened......

They will turn off so many Star Trek fans I wonder if this has any life after that. People are still hanging in there but that might cross the line.
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Q
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 9:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: The Menagerie

The Keeper totally outs YN Colt - "The other new arrival has considered you unreachable but now is realizing this has changed. The factors in her favor are youth and strength, plus unusually strong female drives." Awkward!
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Sen-Sors
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 9:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

"Georgiou is a rebel."

Georgiou is Space Hitler. Nothing less.

The show acts like it's fine because she knows Micheal Burnham. They apparently have a weird connection that has not been explored and makes no sense; the Mirror Micheal the Empress knew is dead, and Disco Micheal rescued her from a situation she might have been able to handle herself and threw her into a foreign timeline where her empire doesn't exist.

"It's not like she's genetically predisposed to act that way,"

No, but neither was Hitler! That's a weak argument when someone works their way up to being a brutal dictator who literally eats other sentient species for lunch.

Georgiou is way, way beyond the sort of character who has done bad but may come around to being an ally for good. Her whole life has been violence, brutality and a quest for power for it's own sake. She has yet to show any of the depth or nuance found in Dukat, Baltar or even Q. She's a cartoon, and it is a waste of a talented actress.

A show with better writers could perhaps pull off a gradual turn in her character, but they would have had to start earlier, in season 2. I really don't think the current crop of STD writers can pull it off, which is why I'm leaning towards a schmaltzy self-sacrifice during a season finale. That's easy and dumb and it's like Star Wars.
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Cody B
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 8:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@Booming

What???????
I never said anything about you being on meds or being a psycho. You are quoting me as saying things I’ve never said. Whatever man. I tried to be friendly and respectful to you I don’t know what your problem is. Enjoy the arguments
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