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William B
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 9:34am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Facets

@Trent,

I like your proposed rewrite of the episode a lot.

Because you mentioned Phantasms above for Distant Voices, I think it might also make sense to use the holosuite to literalize Dax's internal world the way Data's was, though that makes more sense for an android.

One of the big advantages of this approach is that the hosts (Jadzia's versions of them) could actually interact with each other, so that we get a sense of what inner conflict and harmony might mean. Have hosts take points of view and argue with each other and agree, take sides in key issues.

It might be cliché to do this, but it could take the form of a sort of hazing even, where near the episode's climax the other hosts gang up on Jadzia to underscore how much she does not deserve to be a Dax...leading her to piece together that this is her fear, not an accurate version of her past hosts, or to the extent her past hosts are aligned against her, it's mostly to get her to the realization that she can be in harmony with them without being beholden to them, especially Curzon.

I might even play on the Distant Voices Garak reveal a bit. Have Ben appear to be with Jadzia as a guide, saying either that he's the real Sisko who has entered the dream state with her, or maybe that he's a representation of someone he trusts who can be an external observer, and then eventually reveal that he's Curzon (who has been absent, but which is explained by Sisko as "the way it works that you only meet the most recent past host at the end"), trying to earn her trust in order to get closer to her. The audience when realizing that Sisko is actually Curzon and that he's been to an extent playing her will feel some sense of Jadzia's betrayal. In general, swap Sisko into the Curzon slot, because he's the one she trusts and the one she associates with Curzon (though I think Rene is very good in the episode proper).

Maybe even have some problem going on - the station is failing in her mental world, or something - and Jadzia assumes it's Joran causing it, but it's really Curzon trying to keep her from really seeing him.

Lots of possibilities.
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Trent
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 9:34am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Third Season Recap

I've been rewatching DS9. Using a 10 point scale, I'd give rate this season's episodes thusly:

The Search Part 1 -- 8.5/10
The Search Part 2 -- 8.5/10
House of Quark -- 8.5/10
Equilibrium -- 6/10
Second Skin -- 7/10
The Abandoned -- 7/10
Civil Defense -- 2/10
Meridian -- 2/10
Defiant -- 7/10
Fascination -- 2/10
Past Tense Part 1 -- 8/10
Past Tense Part 2 -- 7.5/10
Life Support -- 1/10
Heart of Stone -- 7/10
Destiny -- 8.5/10
Prophet Motive -- 7/10
Visionary -- 4/10
Distant Voices -- 2/10
Through the Looking Glass -- 6/10
Improbably Cause -- 8.9/10
The Die Is Cast -- 7.9/10
Explorers -- 6.9/10
Family Business -- 7.5/10
Shakaar -- 7/10
Facets -- 5/10
The Adversary -- 7.5/10

I would say everyone's reached a kind of consensus on this season. Everyone knows the good episodes, and the bad. For me personally, "House of Quark", "Search 2" and "Destiny" grew in stature over the years, whilst "The Die Is Cast", "Defiant", "Explorers" and "Past Tense" dipped slightly. I thought there were no great Dax, Miles or Bashir episodes in this season.
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Trent
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 8:59am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Distant Voices

Like "The Abandoned" earlier in this season, "Distant Voices" is preoccupied with aging. There Jake and a Jem'hadar boy rapidly grow, and Sisko is left reeling, unable to stem the flow of time. Here Bashir hits his thirtieth birthday and finds, like "Facets" later in this season, his personality traumatically split into disparate parts.

But it's all rather dull, the episode consisting of countless familiar tropes, blunt symbolism and "dream logic" cliches. An episode like this needs to aspire to something like Hitchcock's "Vertigo", or David Lynch's "Inland Empire", but instead we get a less interesting version of TNG's "Phantasms" and "Masks", two episodes which at least have cool science fictional angles to elevate them above mere psychodrama.
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Glom
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 7:46am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

I think the continuation of Discovery demonstrates one thing: the show isn't a commercial disaster. It is likely whenever a new season of Discovery releases, there is a spike in subs as people check it out. A significant part of that will be those watching it so they can talk about how terrible it is. Many of those subs are lost once it finishes because the show doesn't have a lot of legs.

So the suits see this and conclude that more new Trek is the key to getting subs and if there is a steady stream of new Trek, subs will be maintained. Keep churning out more Trek. Nothing is really landing so far, but it is at least people are watching new stuff and eventually something might land.

In a way it is the opposite situation to Super Mario 3D All-Stars. That is a minimum effort product but it has three of the greatest games ever so it will sell like mad as it has done. With Star Trek right now, it isn't doing that well so CBS need to keep putting in effort. And if they cancelled it, what then? Walk quietly into that good night? Their current strategy may not have reached the promised land, but it is at least keeping them afloat (and they have haters to thank for that as much as actual fans).
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Booming
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 6:55am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@ Mal
That is how imagine Kurtzman and his clone to sit in bed talking about their story ideas. :D

@Tommy D
"at the very least generating enough interest and enough revenue overall to keep going, and to continually plan to add to the platform"
I completely agree it draws in significant numbers subs, ViacomCBS have increased their subnumbers from the end of 2018: 7,2m to 16.2 and Star Trek in this new form is certainly successful. Original programming is everything these days.
I disagree StarTrekwatcher that there isn't any quality programming. There is but right now it is all washed away by this avalanche of mediocrity. Everything is greenlit now if it is half original. Another problem is that too many stuff is too dark. That was successful for a time but now life is so gritty that more and more can't stand this depression festival everywhere. I believe that shows will soon become far more positive, not better of course maybe even worse but easier to digest.

"Also, I would just add that I think Nielsen ratings aren't much of a measure here. For example, we just had in the U.S. the NBA finals, featuring the most popular basketball team in the U.S. and likely the most popular NBA team in the world (Los Angeles Lakers). The ratings were the worst in years, and down just over 50% from the previous year. Since those fans don't disappear (I know I live in L.A.), I think you have to assume people are consuming and viewing their favorite shows and events much differently than how we measured viewership 20-30 years ago."
Yes and no. The Nielsen rating was always a bad system. It is a panel study (The same group is asked again and again) and such a study form has quite a few downsides, money and learning effects to name two. On the other hand, there is a pandemic going on that takes money out of the pockets of the lower classes which means less money for pleasure, add to that that the games are a very different viewing experience (no or less fans) plus interests change like it happened with Baseball and American Football.
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Tim C
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 6:38am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Doing well here, Jammer, although like everyone else the pandemic has derailed a whole bunch of life plans. It'll be nice to have your reviews back. Feels like one more step towards things returning to normal!
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Mal
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 6:31am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

oh shit, forgot to add this to my previous post for @Booming

https://youtu.be/JJEfX7qvGYI
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Mal
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 6:29am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@Startrekwatcher, I agree, Trek writers today are pretty sad shadows of days past.

I'm so glad you called out for special praise Melinda Snodgrass. She's a gem!
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Tommy D.
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:09am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@Booming

I agree we don't really have much information on how to measure the success of streaming service. I also think its fairly plausible that Trek acts as a loss leader for the platform. That actually wouldn't surprise me, as subscription and its retention is extremely important for streaming platforms.

However, I think the amount of shows that have spawned since Discovery launched, including some that were likely not planned for in the beginning, point to this show (and these shows) at the very least generating enough interest and enough revenue overall to keep going, and to continually plan to add to the platform. Even bean counters have their limits.

Also, I would just add that I think Nielsen ratings aren't much of a measure here. For example, we just had in the U.S. the NBA finals, featuring the most popular basketball team in the U.S. and likely the most popular NBA team in the world (Los Angeles Lakers). The ratings were the worst in years, and down just over 50% from the previous year. Since those fans don't disappear (I know I live in L.A.), I think you have to assume people are consuming and viewing their favorite shows and events much differently than how we measured viewership 20-30 years ago.
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 4:34am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Oh and this episode feels a lot like the third season premiere of ENT. Promised a revamp but more of the same. Average or so. Stock action with a filler plot on a trading post. Interesting teaser at the end that’s more interesting than the entirety of the episode itself

But unlike discovery the writers managed to later capitalize on the xindi arc to great affect

I don’t have Faith these writers can based on picard play-off , the klingon war arc and the red angel mysteey

What will happen is viewers will come up with more interesting story developments and sadly see more in the writers ideas than the writers do.
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 4:28am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

The sad truth is writers aren’t very good anymore. At least that’s my opinion. I’ve watched a lot of tv and despite protestations that this is the Golden Age for tv I disagree

Sure there are tons of shows to watch nowadays. Too many. Nobody can keep up. Sure they are more serialized than was the norm.....maybe. Because in the 80-90s soaps and primetime dramas on networks DID tell serialized season long arcs. And I’d argue they did them better because the serialized format they used wasn’t based on epic mystery boxes and playing games with the audience by limiting points of view or only showing a few cards they were holding

Writers nowadays are no good. They haven’t lived or lived very protected shallow lives and done no self reflection or deep thinking. So they have nothing to bring to the table when it comes to writing. Instead they rely on a relentless pacing and being propped up by ridiculously large VFX and production budgets

Gone are the days writers told a well crafted entertaining story. Trek was mostly entertaining. Not always deep that’s ok. As long as you were Entertained. But these new trek programs can’t even do that. The storytelling is so convoluted and payoffs so underwhelming you are left scratching your head why you even watched it

I’ve been rewatching 90s trek especially TNG and the dialog. The character moments. The vocabulary The discussions. The ideas are fantastic. You could tell Michael Piller or Melinda Snodgrass or Michael Wagner or Mauruce Hurley lived and were thinkers. It showed in their scripts. There was imagination. There was reflection at times.

Now shows don’t bother. You won’t find that here these days. Oh you might see lot of pretentious ideas or chatter but scratch or peel the surface and it’s a whole lotta nothing

I’m not saying bringing back writers like Melinda snodgrass or ira Behr or ron moore or brannon braga is necessarily the answer. I believe artistic ability peaks. You hit your high then it’s down hill from There. You can’t be as good a writers as when you were on fire in TNG or ds9. So I don’t think they could do that. But maybe spark something or guide the writers working on trek these days. Provide some sage advice. Give pointers on how to improve their scripts
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Glom
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 4:24am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@Mertov

There's a point to what you say in general. Creativity by focus group is a terrible thing. Council of Geeks said that if creators ask fans what they want for the next installment, they'll just reply by saying they want more of the same. Creators need to be unafraid to do their own thing because when they succeed, the fans will act like that's what they wanted all along. When Creators don't feel bound by the legacy, you get the Zelda series, which is a string of games that are all great to varying degrees but each have their own voice and are the better for it.

However, I'm not sure that's what's happening with Star Trek. Here, it feels like it is very much creativity by focus group, although maybe more creativity by market analysis. It feels like they're taking tropes that are in vogue right now and trying to form a frankenstein's monster out of it. You've got the comic book plots of the Marvel movies mixed with the "adult" stuff of Game of Thrones mixed with the seizure inducing action of Transformers mixed with the pandering nostalgia bait of Star Wars. This makes sense from a business point of view, where the goal is to draw in membership to CBS All Access or whatever it is now. But you can see why many might roll their eyes at this approach.
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Booming
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 4:09am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@ Tommy D
That is the one big question. Streaming and the lack of information about the success of something has given companies quite a bit of power. Are they bleeding money, are they not. I would argue that Star Trek is one of the few shiny name rights CBS owns, so they are throwing out as much as possible. You have to spend money to make money. That is why Star Trek is fairly bland action cookie cutter stuff. It is supposed to appeal to the widest possible audience so that these people keep the so far cheapest streaming subscription. It is the equivalent of the gym subscription, you go once and then forget to cancel or you actually go. As I explained years ago. If CBS cannot get a streaming service going then it will falter. Only media companies who have successful streaming services already or soon will exist in 20 years. These shows have very high production values, as Jammer rightly points out, this must cost a ton of money but if it brings subscribers then it is ok to bleed money on these shows.
So yeah Star Trek is essentially a very expensive add for CBSallaccess.
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Booming
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 3:56am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

What Mertov does is reframing the argument. He says that it is either the fans or the corporation who control it and he is happy that he global spanning enterprise is.
He thinks if a company owns art or the naming rights which in my opinion has very little benefit for society, then they decide what it is. Fair enough.

My opinion isn't covered by that. I think that Star Trek has an identity as a cultural artifact, like Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is defined by what JRR Tolkien wrote and luckily the trust fund that oversees what can be done with it is very restrictive. CBS on the other hand is putting Star Trek out on the street, 5,99$ a pop, thanks to the professionals.

@Mertov
"By all means, do so. You already do it multiple times an episode anyway and multiple times before even a new show aired. But sure, go ahead."
Because we are all quoting Pete Campbell now.
https://64.media.tumblr.com/64fb237a3d2108d85aa8b8311e491427/tumblr_mz78tx4Qq41qdbluio1_1280.jpg
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JohnTY
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 3:10am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@Jammer

Excellent review. Helps that I agree with pretty much all of it :)
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Tommy D.
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 2:23am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

I'm not really following the logic of Trek being run by bean counters who watch Discovery apparently hemorrhage a ton of money, and then these same bean counters decide to give the okay for Trek to spawn off close to half a dozen shows with seasons already renewed or currently in production in spite of this overwhelming lack of financial success.

@Mertov

Well said.
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Mike
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 2:03am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Do we have to frame this as a choice between a fanmade production and what we're getting now? I've seen some of the Trek fan productions and think they are awful, so agree with Mertov that it's good that the fans don't get to make the shows. But that doesn't mean I like what Kurtzman is doing, and in the time I have been reading these comments no one has ever proposed they should be in charge. In that sense it's a total strawman argument - fans would make a terrible show, so therefore Kurtzman Trek is amazing.

BTW I also disagree that Roddenberry "idealism" needs to be in Trek. But that also doesn't mean I'm going to be happy with anything that deviates from it.
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Mertov
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 1:27am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Dave,

Your post fro beginning to end pretty much proves most of what I said. What you are describing in today's shows is your opinion (which is extremely negative). It may or may not match the opinions of millions of Trek fans, for example, it does not match mine. It's good (from your perspective) that I or millions like me do not get to decide what the next ST show will be, and it's good (from my perspective) that millions like you do not get to decide what the next ST show will be either. Professionals do it better than us, and they seem to be fairly successful at it so far.

You say: "It sure doesn't feel, look or sound like the Trek I grew up with, that's for sure,"
To that, I say: True, it doesn't to me either, and... that's GOOD!
I don't want another rehash/recycle of TOS and TNG, DS9's first two seasons. VOY and ENT already did that, and not always well either. No thanks!
If I want the Star Trek I grew up with, I'll go back and watch the 600+ hours of Trek available to me anytime (of course picking the better parts), and I do that even today at times. But I don't want to see a "600+ hour + 1" followed by "600+ hours + 2," and so on, for more of the same. Spare me that for new and upcoming Trek shows. I'm fairly sure today's audience, i.e. the audience that today's producers and showrunners target would not be too hot about watching the likes of some of the TOS and TNG episodes on a weekly basis either, see my examples above for what classic Trek writers believe today's audience would watch and it ain't the episodic, safe, "my-pristine-ship-saves-all" TOS and TNG that we grew up with.

A small detail: as for the Nielsen ratings, comparing TNG's ratings when it originally aired with no streaming competition in the 80s with CBS's airing of DSC's first-season rerun - a rerun! - on its network channel is comparing apples and oranges. CBS is airing an old season that aired three years ago, already seen once when it originally aired by its target audience. That old show has just been renewed for a fourth season (where are the youtube conspirators with that count now by the way? Aren't they 0 for 13, or 0 for 14, or something, for predicting cancellations of Trek shows or new Trek shows "dead on start" according to their "reliable sources"??)

"If the episode sucks, I'm going to say so."
By all means, do so. You already do it multiple times an episode anyway and multiple times before even a new show aired. But sure, go ahead.
I simply said that it was a wonderful thing that fans did not get to decide what the next Star Trek show is, or what Star Trek is for that matter... I didn't say "fans cannot voice their opinion" (opinion.... being the key word) which is what you and I just did in the last two posts.
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Dave in MN
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 12:46am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@ Jammer

Glad to see everyone in the family is doing ok. Good review. 👍
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Dave in MN
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 12:44am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@ Mertov

Is Star Trek just a aci-fi brand name, or does that moniker have other associations with it? I guess it boils down to whether you think Trek is supposed to be a weekly morality play adventure or simply any show that happens to wear a Trek "skin".

Trek is made by a corporation, not a non-profit. That is undeniable. But there was a time where Paramount didn't really get Trek and basically left the management of it to a few curators.

However, the further removed we are from the Roddenberry's era, the further his influence is diluted and the idealism of he (and those who took over after his death) is totally subsumed by corporate beancounters and fantasy writers with a political axe to grind.

What we have now is checkbox storytelling-by-commitee designed to appeal to specfic modern trendy demographic groups: hence the attempts to ape Game of Thrones and House of Cards with copious gratuitous gore, endless conspiracies, profanity, incest, violence, rape, dead babies etc.

Trek has become an avatar for CBS to create generic copies of hit shows (that air on other networks).

The maudlin soundtracks, endless jump cuts, shaky cameras and the ignoring of canon compounds the issue. The lack of optimism, camaraderie and philosophy is just the cherry on top of the shit sundae.

It sure doesn't feel, look or sound like the Trek I grew up with, that's for sure, and the Nielsens seem to bear that out.

The first season of DIS has been airing on live TV (in the USA and Canada) for the last month or so .... and the ratings have been really REALLY bad. TNG had 25 million viewers a week and this show can't even get 1 million.

It sure looks like the general public AND the fans doesn't like what they're seeing. If they did, don't you think at least a few million of those old TNG watchers would be hooked? If this new direction is such mind blowingly awesome television, why is it underperforming so badly?

That ties back into my opening comment: the bad ratings, the lack of interest in merchandising for the new shows, the absurd cost-per-episode, the bad reception from Fandom .... if what you've described is what "Trek" is supposed to be now, then why does the vast majority disagree with your assessment?

Despite all this, I still haven't given up on Trek, hope springs eternal .... but I'm not going to give this show false praise to make other people feel better. This isn't a campfire therapy session.

If the episode sucks, I'm going to say so.
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Mal
Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 12:20am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@ Jammer, great review, and great to hear from you again!

Doing well here. Have achieved a certain, shall we say, Serenity, with the whole situation.

And it seems we've been going back to some of the same old favorites during these last few months. To quote Pete Campbell, a thing like that!
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Mertov
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

The last few dozens of posts (before Jammer's review posted prompt) illustrate perfectly (and it’s not the first time either) why it’s a wonderful thing that fans don’t get to decide what Star Trek is or which shows to produce. We have had opinions anywhere from “Fuck Kurtzman” to “Fuck this shit,”, to suggestions of “ignoring completely what fans want” to the ubiquitous quote that existed since TNG’s beginnings that goes by “This is not Star Trek” to.. well your pick..

Luckily, instead of them, it’s professionals, studios that make that decision. Fans can declare “my Star Trek” and write academic essays about what it is (and if anything this thread shows as dozens have shown before over the last 3 years, there is a huge variety of what people consider to be Star Trek. Nonetheless, and thankfully again, Star Trek is in the hands of professionals who have to take into account a lot more than their impulsive desires when they wake up in the morning for a cup of coffee or plop their butts on the couch to watch TV.

And for those who revere the old Trek writers, have you seen Mannny Coto’s new series? The so-called great writer of Enterprise who did a “great job” with Enterprise in its 3rd and 4th seasons? His new show is called “neXt” on Fox – centering on an AI taking over the world, YEAH, whoop-de-doo – and the two episodes that aired so far are faster paced than any of Discovery’s episodes that the same people who yearn for the days of Manny Coto and criticize Discovery could ever imagine. Already in the pilot episode, in a matter of 43 minutes, we went from a simple Siri-like machine talking to a kid, to a super-intelligent AI who has crippled FBI/CIA computers and is threatening to take over the earth. So much for the worshippers of the old Trek days where conversations of Riker and Picard having pizza and just sitting and talking like they did in that overrated episode of PIC for 45 minutes with nothing happening. “Quiet, peace, talk, no action”…. Riiiiiiight…. Seems that there is one old Trek series writer who thought of anything but *that* for his new show, and rightfully so, because he is not stupid, he has a show to run and hope to attract today’s audiences to survive.

And speaking of Ron Moore that people cannot get enough of worshipping and even using as a way to trash today’s trek writers. Well, he was in the DS9 documentary plotting out a hypothetical premiere for season 8 along with other classic revered DS9 writers like Rene Echeverria, Hand Beimler, Ira S. Behr, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, and guess what their idea of an 8th-season premiere was? It was ANYTHING BUT deep, long, quiet moments, profound 10-minute-long chunks of philosophical conversations, an hour devoid of action and speace fight. In fact, from what I could count, there were 4 shocking twists, one beloved character being blown to pieces, one spectacular space fight (and you better believe they would use CGI), three eleventh-hour cliffhangers, two significant explosions, all squeezed into one premiere episode. Since these guys are so revered and considered vintage genius writers (with which I happen to agree) then I assume same people would trash that episode and these writers too (but surely not throw in a couple “Fuck Moore/Behr” or “Fuck Echeverria” slogans, I’d hope).

Or…you could come to the realization that these guys like Manny Coto, Ron Moore, Ira S. Behr, and other showrunners like the ones in charge of today’s Trek series (Chabon, Kurtzman, Goldsman, Paradise, MacMahan, and their teams) know what they are talking about because today’s audience is no longer attuned to 45 minutes of bottle episodes with zero consequence where the few heroes running our pristine ships solve every problem and the crew gets along as if the concept of conflict never existed. Sure you can claim to be of a higher intelligent plateau and label today’s viewers “stupid” or denigrate them and continue to yearn for “my Star Trek” while millions of others enjoy Star Trek shows of their liking on TV. But thank heavens you, I, or any other fan who just wants “my Star Trek” is not in charge of deciding what the next actual and official Star trek will be.
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Jammer
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Review now posted.
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SlackerInc
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@Mal: "If TPTB at Star Trek had been able to keep Moore, VOY could have been amazing!"

Maybe. Depends on which version of Moore we got. The BSG miniseries and the first 25 episodes of the series proper are amazing, among the best sci-fi ever produced. The next fifty-odd episodes include a few good moments, but overall they jumped the shark and taint the legacy of the show with a lot of hokey woo nonsense. I showed the series to my kids, but stopped it after "Resurrection Ship (Part 2)" and pretended that was the series finale. I wish I could reprogram my brain so that's how I remember it!

And I think there are actually a lot of good Voyager episodes.
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Mal
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 8:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@Booming said, "Then 2001 a space odyssey is Star Trek, BSG is Star Trek, The Expanse is Star Trek and so on."

The funny thing is, nBSG could have been Star Trek.

Ronald D. Moore, of TNG & DS9, had a huge fight with Brannon Braga on VOY. Moore left VOY and went on to make nBSG everything he thought VOY should have been. If TPTB at Star Trek had been able to keep Moore, VOY could have been amazing!

There is an extended conversation about Moore on VOY ( https://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118/ ) in the comments to @ Jammer's Sixth Season Recap of VOY.

Something similar, oddly, enough, is probably true of The Expanse. Star Trek could easily have been of that high Expanse quality. Naren Shankar - like Ronald D. Moore - started out at TNG. He now runs The Expanse.

I mean, just let Seth McFarlane make The Orville as a Star Trek show. A live action Lower Decks. At least Seth understands the soul of Star Trek.

Other franchises have done their best to bring people in who actually live and breathe the sprit of those stories. If we have learned one thing from The Mandalorian, it is that a great show runner can make all the difference in the world.

20 years ago (in 2001!) the name Star Trek was spoken with pride alongside the greats like Space Odyssey 2001. Some day TPTB will bring a person in to run the show who lives up to its past glory. But that day is not this day.

Star Trek is still trying to do everything with cheap writers and shit show runners, and they just cover up that mediocrity with an insane amount of SFX.

A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

That's why Season 3 Episode 1 gives me hope. No space battles. If they keep it up, who knows, things may be headed in a good direction?

Fingers crossed.
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