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P'kard
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 11:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: The Neutral Zone

As someone born in the early 1990s I did not find the frozen people relatable at all. They just seemed greedy and self centered
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Abby
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 10:49pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

I was referring to a poll about what Star Trek series people had seen. In that poll, Voyager beat everything but TNG. I shouldn’t have mentioned “on the air” since I have no clue about Nielsen ratings and such.

Wasn’t Voyager released on the new Paramount network? Would that alter rating results? I also saw that the most watched Star Trek episodes on Netflix are Voyager ones.

I am watching both season 7’s of TNG and Voyager right now. Voyager is 100% more entertaining. And I grew up with Next Generation.
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Top Hat
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 9:20pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Just if people are interested: http://www.madmind.de/2009/05/02/all-star-trek-movies-and-episodes-in-two-charts/. You'll note that in absolute terms, DS9 had better ratings than Voyager, aside from a handful of short periods (including right at the beginning). Both declined sharply over time, however, which TNG did not.
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Abby
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 9:02pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Loved the episode, too. Any episode with much intended humour is usually a good watch. I also like that the head Klingon is smart enough to mention that the scrolls could have been written by some crazy guy in a cave. However, he is finding the believable aspects in them to help his people make a home. And perfect that all worked out and B’Elanna saved his family. Obviously all a coincidence, but the gang can go on believing the prophecy.

The Neelix stuff was funny. Any time he can bother Tuvok is the best. And saving poor Kim from the lady - perfect. These episodes are simply comic relief and I welcome them after some of the intense and dramatic episodes. As some poster mentioned above, I am probably in that group of people that Voyager writers were catering to.

I also read that when Star Trek was on the air, more people watched Voyager than all the other series besides TNG. So the writers must have been doing something right.

I don’t need character development in my shows, just fun characters experiencing life.
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Patrick
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 8:06pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Nightingale

Did anyone notice Seven was sleeping in a bed before Harry came in and woke her up? That was weird; it must have been one of those Borg regeneration mattresses.
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Patrick
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:55pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Body and Soul

I love this episode because of Jeri Ryan’s portrayal of the Doctor. She was hilarious, enjoying those prison rations!
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Jamie Mann
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:41pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

> Plus as somebody else mentioned they are not at war and the Dominion stated that they only attack ships that have entered their territory. It's is not at all like merry old England during WW2 for numerous reasons. (I hope I don't have to name them. It seems very obvious to me but I can if you want)

Oh dear. I wasn't comparing the situation to WW2, but was instead using the "liberty ships vs u-boats" example to demonstrate the difficulties of having an extended supply chain across long distances across potential/actual hostile territory.

It seemed very obvious to me, but I can explain further if you want ;)

Beyond that: the Dominion and Federation aren't at war? This'll be the Dominion that has established a spy presence on Terra? The one that's been actively using subterfuge to try and get the Klingons and Federation to attack each other? And the ones, who (just a few episodes later) had prepared an attack on Bajor's sun which would destroy their entire civilisation? The Dominion which force breeds genetically altered shock-troopers addicted to a drug? The Dominion which had wiped out and destroyed all ships which they found on the other side of the wormhole without asking questions or attempting any form of negotiation? Including a Bajor colony!

And let's not forget Bashir's harrowing experience on a planet the Dominion first nuked back to the stone age and then infected with a 100% infectious and 100% fatal disease.

It was pretty clear at this point in the story that the Dominion was not looking for co-existence, was not interested in any form of negotiation and was actively looking to destroy the Federation and Klingon empires. And meanwhile on the Federation side, they'd already significantly upgraded DS9's offensive and defensive capabilities in preparation for a Dominion invasion.

There may not have been much active fighting, but it was definitely a full blown cold war, complete with a lot of black operations, many of which would have resulted in the deaths of billions if successful.

Though as we find out later, the Federation had a few dirty tricks of it's own tucked into the uniform...

> The Federation knew that it couldn't stop the Dominion, especially without the Romulans. "Giving up" the station while also mining the wormhole was a fairly smart choice. Plus they used the ships for destroying a big shipyard.
Laying a minefield? Sounds like something you'd do in a time of war!

(Plus, all that happened several episodes /and/ one Cardassian betrayal later. Again, Sisco couldn't use this kind of future knowledge, even if he was the Emissary ;) )

> To quote Clausewitz:"The defensive form of war is not a simple shield, but a shield made up of well-directed blows."

Ooo, classical quotes time! Here's one from good ol' Sun Tzu:

"On open ground, I would keep a vigilant eye on my defenses. On ground of intersecting highways, I would consolidate my alliances"

I'm pretty sure being a week away from any support would class as open ground, and hence require a very vigilant eye on your defences. Such as, you know, setting up a convoy system for any ships travelling to the planet and back.

And I'm equally sure that the wormhole would count as an "intersecting highway", so Sisco should have been concentrating on his alliances with Bajor, the Cardassians and even the Klingons and Romulans, rather than spending several weeks poking at rocks on a remote planet which the Federation could never hope to support in the event of a full scale war breaking out.

Gotta quote 'em all, baby!

> I mentioned the Dominion has superior sensors so only hiding would have been risky but maybe possible but certainly not monitoring. The better option then would have been to just fly back

For better or worse, Star Trek has always preferred dramatic set-pieces over technical consistency: one week's technobabble is generally (and conveniently) forgotten by the very next episode. For instance, no-one seems to remember the Ferengi metaphasic shield from TNG, despite the fact that this could handle a far heavier energy load than a normal shield.

Certainly, it would have been sensible to prepare for the potential arrival of the Jem Hadar as best as possible - and to put as much resource as possible into studying the ship - rather than sending most of the crew off to dig graves.

> That is not true. Sisko and at least Dax have fought through numerous engagements. Dax probably more than anybody. We also don't know the capabilities of the other officers. I say bad reasoning and speculation, good sir.

I'll grant Dax to a degree. But whichever way you cut it, a small group of lightly armed non-soldiers is never going to fare well against a much larger group of heavily armed, better armoured shock troopers, especially when the latter also happen to be faster, stronger, significantly more motivated and willing to die for their cause. And that's before you throw in things like teleportation and personal cloaking devices.

> Yes Sisko didn't know that there was a founder on the ship BUT he did know that they were three weeks outside of Dominion space and if it was just one of the endless amounts of ships it would probably take quite a while maybe weeks until the Dominion notices and then sends a rescue ship.

You were kinda doing well there.

First, it's mentioned fairly early on that this isn't a standard Jem Hadar ship, which in turn would imply that it could be more important than usual.

Then too, if the nearest *known* Dominion outpost is three weeks away, then why was this ship nearby? This suggests that there may be a Dominion base or other assets nearby, or that it could even be some sort of transit route between points of the Dominion. As such, what are the odds that there are other Dominion ships which are less than three weeks travel away?

Also, just what does "three weeks" mean? Is that three weeks at standard cruising speed? Does the Dominion use the same cruising speed? Given that warp speeds are exponential and the Dominion has superior technology (and less regard for the safety of the crew - i.e. they're prepared to run their systems hotter and have fewer safety/backup systems, so have ships which are both lighter and more power efficient), how quickly could they really travel to this planet if this ship is important to them for some reason?

All things considered, there were four main scenarios:

1) They'd be able to use the runabout and/or the ship's own engines to escape the gravity well and head back to the wormhole. Elapsed time: minimum one week (depending on what speed they can maintain while towing/nursing a damaged ship's engines)
2) They'd have to wait for the Defiant to arrive, and then to tow the ship back to the wormhole. Elapsed time: minimum two weeks (again, depending on what speed they can maintain while towing)
3) A Dominion ship could turn up at any time and simply destroy the ship to protect it's secrets *at any time*
4) A Dominion ship could turn up at any time and drop a platoon of the aforementioned heavily armed shock troopers *at any time*

Scenarios 3) and 4) would mean the death of everyone on the planet. Scenarios 1) and 2) rely on the hope that there are no nearby Jem Hadar ships.

So yeah, the best bet would have been the option I suggested: get as much material onboard the runabout as quickly as possible, and hightail it out of there, while the Defiant trundles over to the planet. If the ship is still intact and there's no Jem Hadar around when it arrives, then it's cocktails all around. If not, then at least you've gotten something useful out of it and there's little risk of the entire team being wiped out.

(And to be honest, I'd question the validity of options 1) and 2), given that even if there weren't any changling spies on DS9, the Dominion would certainly notice the Defiant heading into the gamma quadrant, and would be more than willing to ambush and destroy it. And for all (to quote the Rikers) it's a tough little ship, it didn't exactly fare that well when set upon by hordes of Jem Hadar ships at the start of Season 3, and I doubt it's been upgraded enough to do significantly better.

Then too, it presumably wouldn't be able to cloak if towing the other ship. And even if the other ship could move under it's own power, it wouldn't be able to cloak and would be a sitting duck for any Jem Hadar warships. So the Defiant would have to decloak to defend it in the event of an attack.

So whichever way you cut it, Sisco and co would have to spend at least a week sailing through territory monitored by the Dominion, in an uncloaked ship.

Thankfully for Sisco, the writers handwaved that little issue away...)

> sacrificing the few for the many.But the Federation has never had that kind of mindset
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA
Conflating the choice of an individual with the ethos of an organisation is pretty weak sauce, old chap.

To be fair, the Federation does occasionally ask individuals to risk their lives. Such as when Picard asked a Bajorian midshipman to act as a prisoner for a Cardassian agent (even if this was arguably highly out of character), or when Troi realised that the only way to "win" her command simulation was to order Geordi to his death. But these are at least nominally extreme situations; in general, Star Fleet doesn't send it's members into high risk situations - and spends lots of time agonising over their deaths when something happens, as demonstrated in this episode.

You can perhaps argue that the crew had already volunteered for a high risk mission, given that they were in the Gamma quadrant in an essentially unprotected ship, but then we get back to just how ridiculous this entire scenario is...

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv8fPISqh_k
What can I say? Except...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-WN_AxH3Ik
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Brad
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S3: Basics, Part II

An excellent analysis as always, Elliot! Glad to see you're back.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 5:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

"Am I remembering wrong, or did Odo not link with Older Odo before the end of the episode?"

ODO: There's something you should know. The other Odo, the one from the planet, came to Sickbay before he left the ship.
ODO: There's something else the other Odo wanted you to know. He was responsible for changing the Defiant's flight plan.

It sounds like Oldo linked after he did the deed. Prime Odo couldn't keep form because of the planet's technobabble, so he couldn't do anything to fix it, either. So Odo's hands are basically clean (assuming one thinks Oldo did anything wrong to begin with).
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Peter G.
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 5:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

Am I remembering wrong, or did Odo not link with Older Odo before the end of the episode? If so, the decision would have to have been at least partially joint. But I actually do think there's a such thing as not being mature enough to make a decision, that, if you get it wrong, you'll regret for the rest of your life. There are decisions in life where "you won't know" how it will go, and maybe there are others which, pick wrong, and you'll never be able to take that back. In the case of who will have families with whom it might be hard to say which way is better. Or at least it might have tempting to think about the colony. But in Odo's case he had 200 years to think about it, which I think is really not taken seriously enough. She meant that much to him. I'm not sure I agree that him making the choice for her (and for his other self) is antagonistic towards her wishes. It's not exactly as if her life's goal was to die for some random colonist. But her heartstrings were pulled and she gave in to it, which is one of the things he loves about her, but also a good reason to provide her with a kick when she needs to get back to her chosen mission. Maybe that's a contentious assertion and I don't have that much time now, but I'm pretty sure I'm onto something with that.

@ Fenn,

"I feel the majority of the episode *is* dedicated to having both the characters and audience see these people as living beings with a right to persist."

The thing is, I don't really see any point made in the episode about their rights. I don't in fact think they have any right at all to expect anyone to die so they can live. Rather I think a lot of time is taken to help us connect with them, to give a clear vision of who they are and what *wouldn't happen* if a different course is chosen. It's that vivid connection to what *could be* that makes life's choices so difficult. But we let ourselves off easy by not thinking about the consequences of what we *don't do*. Funny that, since we don't do a great deal more things than we do. It's worth thinking about, at the very least, even if what we have chosen to do really is right for us.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 4:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

Yeah, Fenn, I think by letting Oldo be the one making the decision and not prime timeline Odo, the writers let Odo off the hook. I can see Kira still having some apprehension that current Odo might become someone who wouldn't listen to her wishes, but by the same token current Odo hasn't done anything like that. And for what it's worth, it seems likely given the change in circumstances prime Odo will turn out completely different.
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Booming
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 3:23pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

Well, it is certainly closer to an (ideal) communist society than a capitalistic one. The state provides every basic need(food, health care, living space, free education) and also controls the means of production, no money, most people work for the state.
Sounds pretty communistic to me.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 2:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

The 24th century Federation is a post-scarcity society. It isn't "socialist" any more than it is "capitalist". It's a society when both "-isms" are equally obsolete.

And I've never understood why some people insist on equating messages of cooperation and compassion and tolerance with a certain political view. These core values should be beyond the petty bickering of politicians.
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Fenn
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 2:27pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

" I think one can compliment an episode if you can be on both sides of the argument for good reasons. "

No doubt there. Says good things about its complexity.

Yeah, that's definitely an ongoing thing with Odo. I have a low tolerance for romantic angst Odo, but it does make sense, doesn't it? "The first cut is the deepest" -- he looks and sounds old but really he's experiencing a lot of things for the first time. Teen angst.

Maybe he hasn't got the detail in his face yet because he hasn't quite finished his "coming of age"...!

And then we get Oldo in 'Children of Time' who *is* sure about things, *can* say the "I love you" with no hesitation. But while he might have become more sure of himself, on his own, I get the impression he's gone the opposite way when it comes to interaction with other people. Hence not taking Kira's wishes into account.
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William B
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 2:23pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

Not that no one else has mentioned this, but for me the key insight about Old Odo is that he was willing to wipe out two hundred years of history he himself knew, of people he in principle saw born and died. It's not the same as Miles arguing they go back to their lives on the station (even had he held fast) because it's a confirmation that Odo will choose Kira over two centuries' worth of other connections he's made (or has not made), that *this* is how much his feelings for her eclipse his feelings for everyone else. To be fair to Odo, something similar could be said about Jake in The Visitor, though at least there it's less clear that there are any lives that definitely won't happen (Jake probably believes that Nog, his wife, etc. will still exist in the world where Ben doesn't die). This also raises the question of where Odo's loyalties lie should his feelings for Kira waver.
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Booming
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 2:03pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

@ Fenn
I think one can compliment an episode if you can be on both sides of the argument for good reasons.

About Odo. As one of the super smarties pointed out. Odo loves Kira because she is sure about everything while he doubts everything.
Odo in a way is on a coming of age journey. He has his first love during the show, (kind of) parental issues,experiences friendships for the first time. At the beginning of the show he just exists but he has no deeper reason for doing anything apart from an inborn sense for order (or justice). Kira on the other hand has a fully formed personality at the beginning of the show. Sure she gets more open towards the Federation but that is pretty much it. Kira grows as a person but Odo is a changed being at the end of the show. I would argue that it fits his character to act selfish one could say childish/like a teenager while Kira acts more mature.
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Fenn
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 1:49pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

Ehh, for what it's worth I was trying to downplay the point of the 8000 descendants thing in my last comment. That ain't the hill I'm gonna die on here.

No matter what, it was something that mattered to Kira -- enough that she was willing to die for it. She commits a selfless action, but from the end of this episode onwards she goes on knowing that Odo, despite his love for her, is fully willing to undercut her on this for his own selfish reasons.

[SPOILERS FOR EARLY DS9 S6 BELOW]

That's a tendency of his that continues from here, actually. 'Favor the Bold' has Odo too caught up in linking to even care about the Resistance any more -- he *hears* Kira calling to him, but he doesn't *listen*. One could argue that Oldo's distance and isolation from the humanoid society in this episode is comparable to the emotional distance Odo develops from humanoids in 'Favor the Bold' on account of repeated linking.
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Booming
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 1:27pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

So true, Chrome. What about the husbands, wives, daughters and sons growing up without their loved ones?

Man, that will be an awkward conversation with Keiko when Miles gets home. :"Hi honey, crazy mission. Phew I decided to abandon you and the kids for some colony of time travelers but it... ." Then the vase hits his head.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 1:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

“It's a tremendously selfish action all round -- placing his own desires above that of both the 8000 and of Kira.”

What gives those 8000 the right to live any more than the 8000+ (including Sisko and Cassidy’s son) who will be created over 200 years when the Defiant returns to DS9? I know Odo’s motivations are different, but perhaps the fact that he was so unhappy there shows chinks the armor of ostensible utopian paradise. It’s “The Matter of Time” Rasmussen situation all over again except this time there’s no Picard around to be the voice of reason. Just because they know how our future *might* turn out doesn’t mean they should resign themselves to fate.
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methane
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:59pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

"Right-leaning folks' enjoyment of Star Trek for all of its leftist daisy-chain utopianism reminds me a lot of ..."

How profoundly shallow is your view of art! But then again, many artists are probably oblivious enough to voice the same view (my art is all about my message! And it gets people to believe in it!), even though they actually like a large amount of art that contains ideals they don't believe in.

There are millions (billions?) of non-Christians who enjoy at least some Christian art, whether it's Gospel music, Gothic Cathedrals, the better-written parts of the bible, or renaissance paintings celebrating biblical scenes. You can say the same thing about Islamic art, Buddhist art, and any other religious art you can think of.

There is a lot of art made by people who were/are fascists, communists, militarists, racists, sexists, etc., that are enjoyed by people who don't share these views, even though if you dissect these works of art, their views are present.

And Star Trek isn't really about a lot of "left leaning" stuff...at least not in any coherent way. If Star Trek has an intrinsic message it has successfully communicated throughout the various series, it is that people of different backgrounds can come to work together. But, despite what people who call themselves "left thinking" might say, many people believe this who don't identify with the "left". Furthermore, believing in that ideal does not imply you believe in "leftist" race politics (for example, you can believe that all people can work together and still believe that racial quotas are not good for society).

The other main "leftist" idea attributed to Star Trek, socialism, isn't really supported by the shows themselves. Yes, there are random comments throughout the series (not so much TOS, but the ones that follow): "How awful it is to use money," "Aren't you glad we're not greedy Capitalists like them?" "Hey, do you know Capitalists are greedy?" etc., along with individual episodes, characters, and even most of a whole race (Ferengi) where the writers say "Capitalism is bad." But they never successfully justify this opinion; the shows never really show the supposedly non-capitalist system of the future working (indeed, writers have admitted they don't really know how it would work). And they certainly don't show a sincere capitalist society failing (no, the massively corrupt, bureaucratic Ferengi society is not really capitalist).

If you take all the Star Trek shows and movies made before Discovery (which I haven't seen) they have provided more proof that baseball is an interesting sport than they have proof that socialism works. And I know there are a lot of fans of Star Trek who don't think baseball is an interesting sport.

There are a lot of passionate fans of Voyager who will say "Threshold" is a bad episode. So you don't have to be a fan of every Star Trek episode ever produced to be a fan of the franchise.

So, yeah, it's quite possible to not identify yourself with the "left" and be a fan of Star Trek.

Finally, note that I tried to keep "left" and "right" in quotes throughout this post. These "ideologies" are really an inconsistent mix of different philosophies. If you take many of the policies supported by supposedly "right wing" Trump, you will find many of them would have been attributed to the "left wing" not too long ago. A franchise can't run as long as Star Trek has while being consistent with the inconsistent, ever-changing "ideologies" that supposedly characterize "left" or "right".
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Fenn
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:58pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

Replying to both here, but mostly to Peter G: the definition of "murder" or "death" is definitely a weird one in sci-fi situations like this, but I feel the majority of the episode *is* dedicated to having both the characters and audience see these people as living beings with a right to persist.

And regardless of how killing's defined in this situation, Oldo's decision displays another worrying trait: actively going against Kira's wishes. He knew exactly what her choice was, so he denied her the ability to make that choice, and all for the sake of his past self getting a chance at love. It's a tremendously selfish action all round -- placing his own desires above that of both the 8000 and of Kira.

I do love the idea of Odo's inability to "show his face" being based in fear. In which case, the prosthetic mask... genuinely is a mask, in a sense. Living apart from the others, as Oldo seems to have done, there'd be no reason to hide behind a featureless front any more.
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Booming
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

You are backl Do you think your feeble arguments defeated me?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYPsoxpt0BU

About your first four paragraphs
As I pointed out the Federation is using contractors to trade with the Gamma Quadrant. They even traded with Dominion members like the Karemma.
Why not get the Flubilunian Empire or whatever to mine and the Ferengi to transport it. Easy.
Plus as somebody else mentioned they are not at war and the Dominion stated that they only attack ships that have entered their territory. It's is not at all like merry old England during WW2 for numerous reasons. (I hope I don't have to name them. It seems very obvious to me but I can if you want)

"(and indeed, a few episodes later, it’s revealed that Star Fleet is stretched thin and has virtually no resources to assign to DS9 when the incursion finally happens.)"
The Federation knew that it couldn't stop the Dominion, especially without the Romulans. "Giving up" the station while also mining the wormhole was a fairly smart choice. Plus they used the ships for destroying a big shipyard.
To quote Clausewitz:"The defensive form of war is not a simple shield, but a shield made up of well-directed blows."

"I’d also note that the Dominion has been picking off all ships travelling to the gamma quadrant, as per the earlier mentions of how Bajoran colonies had been destroyed."
I think they specifically tell the bridge crew that they destroyed only stuff in their territory (like the Bajoran colonies).

"Regarding the runabout: Star Trek has always had plenty of options for hiding." As I mentioned the Dominion has superior sensors so only hiding would have been risky but maybe possible but certainly not monitoring. The better option then would have been to just fly back.

"only Worf (and maybe O’Brien) had any significant military experience."
That is not true. Sisko and at least Dax have fought through numerous engagements. Dax probably more than anybody. We also don't know the capabilities of the other officers. I say bad reasoning and speculation, good sir. Speculation! *mustachioed British officer from the 19th century smiley"

" And at the point Sisco made his judgement call, he was not aware of the presence of the founder, so couldn’t consider the crashed ship to be a potentially defensible position"
And you did so well... (Picture me as the genius villain who gives his big speech). You argument is more shaky as you may realize, Mr. Mann. Yes Sisko didn't know that there was a founder on the ship BUT he did know that they were three weeks outside of Dominion space and if it was just one of the endless amounts of ships it would probably take quite a while maybe weeks until the Dominion notices and then sends a rescue ship. Sisko's decision makes perfect sense. Only because of the founder did the Dominion arrive so fast. Without it the Defiant would have arrived a week later, pulled the ship out and they all would have collected a ton of medals.

"sacrificing the few for the many.But the Federation has never had that kind of mindset"
Oh come on! :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA

"instead they’ve always adopted the “bring everyone home” ethos as per the US army." Did they ever state that??

I think I have sufficiently deconstructed your argument. ;)



PS: Here is also a video about how Mann treats his colleagues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv8fPISqh_k

Can we trust a men like this? I SAY NO!!! :(
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Fenn
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: A Time to Stand

I gotta say, I was happy to hear "and now the continuation" at the start of this, instead of "the conclusion". Long-term story, here we come!

It's been a while since we've seen Garak and Bashir's Spirited Conversation... except not quite so spirited here, of course. Maybe this is Siddig's less-than-enthusiasm about his character's shift into Human Computering, but whether he's deliberately torpedoing the performance here or not, the result's actually turned out to be strikingly effective -- like Jammer, I felt a real fatigue coming off Bashir here, that he's been absolutely shattered by the hopeless conflict. Another nail in Early Seasons Julian "Frontier Medicine" Bashir's coffin.

While watching, I did *not* like Bashir coming up with his "32.7%" figure for their survival, and agreed with Garak saying he was just showing off -- "where do you even GET a figure like that, that's nonsense" was my train of thought. My thoughts on this have changed since, but you'll have to read my comments on episodes ahead for that. Suffice to say, it came off badly here, especially as a first impression.

"If I'm a Vulcan, how do you explain my boyish smile?" Dare I say, that line came off... a little flirtatious...? (Also notable, as Jammer points out, as being the only time Bashir smiles this whole episode. Not so boyish indeed.)

Sisko's call home is a definite highlight here -- as in 'Paradise Lost", the grimness of the dynamic between them is a telling sign of the mood of the times. Naturally, recurring cast availability means we can't have scenes like this on a regular basis, but this is good placement for this kind of scene -- adds an extra dimension to the conflict by showing how the mood stretches back to Earth.

Feels like Dukat's relishing his new position above Kira just as much as he relished the recapture of Terok Nor. No surprise whatsoever that he sets immediately to lusting after her as soon as he has the chance, but it makes for some intensely shudder-inducing scenes. They're a microcosm of the Cardassian-Bajoran dynamic, too -- not quite on same sides, but definitely in the same vicinity on account of circumstance, and with the former desperate to lever this as a way to "conquer" the latter. Both the planetary and personal levels to this are deeply unsettling.

I will say that I don't have as much to say re: the Starfleet plot as I thought I would -- it *is* pretty straightforward. But I love seeing Garak take a role as part of the Starfleet ensemble cast. He's even got a Starfleet combadge. Match that with his Jem'Hadar headset (when he gets it) and the fact that both of these are being worn by a Cardassian... he's ended up a very multicultural person, by the necessity of survival rather than choice.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

I agree with Peter that there’s no real murder here; it’s more of a “Parallels” type of situation where reality can spin out one path or the other, but no one in the crew can really take some sort of moral high ground and say “this path is best” because — honestly, no one knows. Even the original mirror plan to cause a “Thomas Riker Effect” on the Defiant crew would be dooming those alternate DS9ers to live a life without their family stuck on a planet.

I like the idea of remembering would could be and focusing on how important our choices are. In a sense, Dax really did get the scientific adventure she wanted on the planet but it turned out to be more personally involved than she expected.
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Peter G.
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:06pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

@ Fenn,

Yeah, I agree the lack of spotten Klingons may be a production oversight. They certainly did not imply they split up.

A lot of people have gone on about Odo as a murderer, or how Kira should be horrified, and so forth. But I think part of this is that after the episode is over they really could think of it as "they never really existed". Sure, it's a sci-fi thing, but in the real world these events exist in some small time loop but otherwise no one died. They have the memories, and I think that is the important take-away: like Picard in The Inner Light, they had a taste of life other than in service to Starfleet, and it was a pretty good one. It's the simple living they all could have had, in an alternate set of choices and circumstances, and one that's no less important or relevant that serving on a super-important space station. And yes, I think the episode is about highlighting how we shouldn't forget about the incredible importantance of little things when thinking about grand wars and intergalactic politics. It shouldn't be just numbers on a screen; planting seeds matters too, and so does having a community. This is the 'real deal' version of what they kept trying to shove at us with the Maquis and maybe with Paradise. Losing all of those descendents isn't murder; it's what actually happens to every person in real life if they're being honest about the life choice to value career over family. You *do* lose something, but that choice may still be the right one. And yes, there are thousands of descendants each person will never have if they choose not to have kids, or to have fewer kids, or whatever. That doesn't mean their choice is wrong, but it *is* a choice with consequences. If you really thought it through it would be no different from this episode.

So regarding Kira and Odo, I really don't think that deaths being on her conscience is relevant to their relationship. It's not really relevant in terms of the sci-fi trope, and it's not relevant because from what we see of 'Oldo's character, he's no murderer, but what he is is a lover, and that is very different. Where he's changed, and maybe why he's not afraid anymore to show his real face (and yes, I think his inability is based in fear) is because he's not afraid to admit he has vulnerable emotions any more. Actually he's relishing the chance to show them to Kira, so this is about as big a character change for him as you can get. He *wants* to be seen as in pain and willing to sacrifice anything for her. So what Kira gets out of this is knowing that the guy who's too ashamed to even smile in public would do absolutely anything for her. So yeah, that is a pretty good trait to have in a romantic partner :)
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