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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 12:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dvj3JIIxhI
First I thought you were making a joke about ST: Prodigy.
This is amazing.
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Trent
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:57am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

I too watched the second episode. I liked the new engineering set, and the new shuttle design, with the beautifully curved engine pylons. Like the first episode, I also like how this series spends time on alien planets, our heroes rummaging about new worlds. It's as aspect of Trek which nu-Trek has neglected.

I also like the way the cyborg character (Rutherford?) was supported by all the different department heads. Very Trekkian. Some good stuff with a Ferengi, and hints of a romance, in the last act too.

But the characters all still seem annoying to me, all relentlessly manic, wacky and "wannabe cool". I also agree with Karl, in that the show works best when its not trying to be funny; it's jokes are pretty lame and obvious. In this episode, only the "easy-mode simulation" made me laugh.

The show also seems to be aiming for a very odd demographic.

With "RiCK AND MORTY" or "SOUTH PARK", you never mistake the scripts for "children's TV". The jokes and scripts are adult, and made funnier by the self-consciously childish aesthetic. "LOWER DECKS'", though, gives you plots sited for maybe 7 to 12 year olds, but with little bursts of 14-16 year old humor (shock violence, sex jokes etc) sprinkled about. It's a weird, almost pointless zone the show occupies. Too esoteric for little kids, or non-Trek fans, and not edgy and funny enough for teens and adults.

Apparently there's going to be a new Trek cartoon - "ST: Prodigy" - aimed for 8 year olds and under. Kurtzman seems to be methodically ticking boxes, "Prodigy" for babies, "Lower Decks" for young teens, "Disco" for action junkies and "Picard" for Berman-Trek fans.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:20am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

Yeah as you rightly point out being insecure and portraying a very self assured outward persona often goes hand in hand. I made the connection to her father because of what leads to her meltdown which is Picard using a quote from her father. Her father is also mentioned by her, I believe, several times and always in a revered way.
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Peter G.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:12am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@ Booming,

"the need to be right because of her insecurities."

On some level everyone is insecure so it's hard to argue that a person's problems may likely stem from insecurities. But in Satie's case I don't think the problem is that she's insecure; on the contrary her problem is that she's *too secure*. She is so sure she is correct, and so sure that she is superior, that anyone taking sides against her (and disagreement would count as taking sides) is essentially the devil. I suppose you could argue that someone so self-assured must deep down be un-self assured, and I guess that rabbit hole goes far down, and about which subconscious motives could be below other motives, and so on. But as far as we can see her problem is she doesn't even recognize that it's possible for someone to disagree with her and not be a traitor; no less the possibility that she's just plain wrong. It's this *certainty*, which borders on religious zealotry, that creates this all-or-nothing steamroller effect. Anyone that sure of anything is already probably losing touch.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:45am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

Good points.
I thought that Satie was driven by insecurity which came from the wide shadow of her father and I never saw her argument as racist, that seems like a silly notion, considering the make up of the federation. I saw it more as "nationalistic" that word is not a good fit but she has a we (Federation/good) vs the others (Klingon, Romulan/bad). She also seems to be paranoid which can happen if you hunt down criminals and whatnot all your life. Soon er or later anybody becomes suspicious.
So for me it was always a combination of the believe that anybody could be guilty merged with the need to be right because of her insecurities.
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Yanks
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:39am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

I'm pretty much in lock-step with Karl Zimmerman.

I enjoyed this one more than the last one.

Star Trek funny is better when they aren't trying to be funny.

Is more "organic" the right term?

Well done here.

Onward and upward!!
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Peter G.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:14am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

I would like to draw a parallel between the discussion here and Admiral Satie's tactics. At first glance Satie is the diametric opposite of a BLM protester - she is 'punching down' from power, as it were; she's using authoritarian tactics to find supposed traitors; she will pick on someone for their race. BLM would seem to be against all these things, and on the surface that distinction holds. However more interesting than those surface details are the mentality behind them. Why does she do these things? How does she view others in the course of her crusade?

One thing we've seen here in this discussion in a very quick reduction to black vs white thinking: it's those 'on the other side' who are the problem. We want to paint wildly, describing disagreement as implying some kind of group membership with the enemy. Satie may have been in a position of entitled power in this episode, but fundamentally I think what's going on isn't that she's abusing power to maintain hegemony; I think she honestly believes the things she's saying, despite being (IMO) mistaken. What is more telling to me is that she is keen to see any sign of being different from her as a sign of treason. Simon Tarses is 1/4 Romulan (iirc) and that brands him as being 'one of them'. Yes, this can come off as racist; and yet I have a hard time believing she is actually racist in some generic way, since she no doubt works alongside various species and has no problem with them. Her problem with Simon would seem to be that he shows some signs of "maybe" being part of the wrong group, the group that is EVIL. Likewise, when she all but calls Picard a traitor, I don't think it's because she always disagreed with his politics or because he didn't think Simon was a Romulan agent; I think it was because he stood up to her and her 'moral' crusade. And there is, of course, nothing so pernicious as telling a moralizing crusader that you think they're wrong about something, that's a clear sign that you are Part of the Problem (TM).

Another interesting thing to note is her approach: Satie ultimately has the grace of a steamroller, feeling it justified and even laudable to publicly and crudely make a big show of getting stuff done. Throughout this process, if someone gets hurt or something doesn't check out, it's ok because the cause justifies it. This particular mentality can easily be seen to reflect on both sides of the BLM issue; on the one side "don't cry about small misdeeds when it's HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS on the table!" and on the other side "hey the police need to do their job, and that means breaking some eggs."

To me what Satie's character illustrates isn't so much that if you're an admiral you can abuse your power, and in fact the episode practically doesn't address the fact that it's an admiral doing all this. Rather the focus seems to be that when a person like her feels she has a righteous cause rooting out evildoers that she will feel entitled and emboldened to do anything she likes, and will defend it by saying it's to fight evil, to which most people (who are not Picard) will keep their heads down and feel they have to let it go on. We've seen this all too often in history, and it's not just tyrants and oligarchs who do it; it seems to be a recurrent ugly side of our nature. Arthur Miller's The Crucible is all about this sort of thing, and in that play it's not the powers that be who are responsible for the hysteria but rather the ordinary townsfolk.

Let'e try to heed this episode's message, that vilifying and smoking out 'the traitors' is probably a good way to divide people and create more strife than it purports to solve. Let's keep in mind that noticing someone may show signs of 'maybe' having something in common with 'the enemy' doesn't mean they should be lumped into some box like Simon was. Sure, he had some Romulan in him; for all we know he even had some sympathy for Romulans. But that didn't mean he was against the Federation or guilty of anything other than not being as pure of blood as Satie was. Nor should we consider those who do not agree or even show some sign of perhaps sympathizing with other points of view as being part of the enemy camp. Non-conformity has increasingly become intolerable to people, and this is not a TNG message.
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CaptainMercer
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:26am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

I might not ever get into this show. The stories are ok.. nothing great. But the animation and art style is hideous, and the fact that they still talk too fast, responses from other characters literally given within a second after a line was delivered, no pauses for even a breath when a character has two or more lines. Mariner is the character that will not only cause all the trouble in every episode but will also save the day, which means she is going to be annoying. Just because she is the show's "strong female character" does that mean she has to be annoying? I noticed that Boimler lost his pants near the end of this episode, and I guess I should thank my lucky stars that I didn't see how. I guess him being nude or almost nude is going to be a running joke. Star trek used to be a drama with comedy that came out from character or situations.. but it has sunk to incredible new lows. The teaser was clever.. I'll give it that. But clever here and hyperactive everywhere else is not enough to sustain a Star Trek show or any show.
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Karl Zimmerman
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:13am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

IMHO, Envoys is slightly better than the first episode. This is for several reasons:

1. They slowed the show down considerably. Aside from a few scenes, the episode's pacing does not feel that different from the average Trek episode.

2. There were coherent character arcs in both the A plot and the B plot this week. Not only that, but they both actually shared a common theme - the sacrifices people will make for the sake of their friends.

3. There were notably less attempts to make jokes. I only really laughed at one thing this week - the "Janeway protocol" - but it was way, way funnier than anything in the first episode. Aside from that though the episode was lighthearted but not trying to make us bust a gut. Which was fine, because it had heart in spades.

I'd also say the "memberberries" this time around are more visual than dropped in exposition, which would probably make the show a bit less annoying to people who hate that stuff.
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:06am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Jason R.
"And apparently no one on this board can either because no one can provide an answer to the question: 'how do we make the police less brutal?' "

Well, I'll say the first step is to return some semblance of normality to the lives of the ordinary citizens, so that this reform could take safely place.

I think the big protests that occured right after the Floyd murder were a good thing. The truth is, back then, nobody cared. Such incidents happened fairly frequently, and nobody ****-ing cared. The cops also walked scot-free afterwords, in many cases.

So it's good that - finally - somebody decided to say "enough!" and made a huge fuss about the whole thing. Now the topic is at the center of discussion all over the world, WHICH IS GREAT.

But now the situation is different. The protests have been heard. And it doesn't take a genius to realize that a country which is plagued with rioters and bullies and vandals is in no position to make huge changes to its police system.

I also fail to see how their current actions are combating racism. Gee, what a wonderful idea! So many people regard us as a race of subhuman criminals, so let's actually behave like subhuman criminals. That will teach them!

In short: Either these guys are very very stupid (which I doubt) or they have some other goal in mind, besides police reforms or actual social justice.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 7:02am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Cody
https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/Churchill-1311392.webp?r=1595169471746
I wouldn't call that severely defaced.
And who is they. In the article it just says:"According to the Mail on Sunday a number of junior Treasury officials have complained they “do not feel comfortable” with the name of the Churchill Room."
So one right wing tabloid quoting an article of another right wing tabloid about a number of junior officials not feeling comfortable with the name of a room."
It seems like you are more on the outlook for gotcha stuff.

"These people are wackos and will never be satisfied."
Yawn. Myself and the overwhelming majority would be against bringing down a statue of Churchill or comparable. Yes he was a racist and did a lot of horrible stuff (war crimes and all) but that is all hugely overshadowed by what he did towards the Nazis and that is why he has those statues. He didn't get them for advocating using chemical weapons against indigenous people.

"You study right wing extremism in the USA don't you? I'm curious, do you personally interview US white supremacists?"
I mostly research German right wing populism (international comparisons are useful though) and related phenomenons . So yes I have probably talked with dozens if not more.

"If an intellectual like yourself has 0 idea how to reform the police you expect a random protester I pull off the street to have the answers?"
The matter doesn't interest me that much. Not more than the average citizen probably.

About meeting someone. Doesn't have to be a random protestor. They will have spokespeople. Just ask if they can provide you with material for what they want in detail or if you could meet somebody that could explain that. Just get the info without really detailing your position if you think that this could lead to repercussions.

And now I'm really done. It is not meant as an insult if I do not react, ok see you back in Trek. :)
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:42am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

I am just going to say it again and keep saying it - what precisely is the policy endgame here? If the police are broken how do we fix them so that we are not back in the same place in another six years?
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:39am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

"And again I would advice you to meet these people in person.
Get first hand information."

You study right wing extremism in the USA don't you? I'm curious, do you personally interview US white supremacists?

If an intellectual like yourself has 0 idea how to reform the police you expect a random protester I pull off the street to have the answers?

That's ironic coming from you.
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Cody B
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:30am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming

Oh okay since they didn’t get the opportunity to absolutely tear the statue down, only severely deface it, it just doesn’t count. Gotcha. And how about how they demand the treasury name be changed? I don’t know what it’s going to take for people like yourself to admit what you already know. These people are wackos and will never be satisfied.
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Cody B
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:26am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Omicron

I agree with you. As I’ve said before I’m slightly more left classically but am being forced more by the day to side with the right more and more. Everything from the left seems phony or just plain bad. Everything about it is screaming “this is a bad road to be going down”. The constituents have never been crazier and the politicians have never been so transparent and pandering and fake.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:21am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Cody
uff, ok one last time. People committing vandalism.

There is nothing in the article about BLM wanting the statue removed. It was vandalized during a BLM protest.

And even if they would try removing the statue, Winston Churchill is the most popular historical figure in Britain.

Again guys strawman.
Please spare me more British right wing tabloid articles.
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Sen-Sors
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:18am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

"Jesus... you've just painted 50% of the population as inhumane monsters."

50% is your number that you pulled out of nowhere. And I'm not hearing any actual argument here; there are clearly a substantial number of humans that fit this description. Again, where's the lie?

So you guys saw a poster that said "silence is violence"? Oh you poor boo-boo. Why don't you look up the midnight no-knock warrant killing of Breonna Taylor? Do you think that's maybe worse? I'll post this person's story because ODTP probably hasn't heard of it. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/us/breonna-taylor-police-shooting-invs/index.html

The changing of society for the better has always come at great cost to the most vulnerable communities; it comes from the people who put themselves out in the streets, and it sure as hell never comes from the comfortable moderates.

And yeah, this has gone on long enough. It's gotten pretty far away from Star Trek. I've said my piece in this thread and I promise I won't say anything more, and I apologize for taking part in this massive derail.
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:12am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

I have a degree in that field but my focus is not policing or questions of social control. I also cannot answer questions about which police force is the best + police is only one element of a complex system. In other words maybe sweden has the lowest amount of police brutality but that could be because of numerous reasons. So if you cut out the swedish system and put it into the American (or Canadian) one then it might have different effects.

Watch that video I posted. It is very statistic and fact heavy (links to sources are often below the video) That is also about the split between committed crime (goes down for decades now) and incarceration which are 8x higher than in Germany.

And again I would advice you to meet these people in person.
Get first hand information.
Apart from that I really want to get back to just write and read about Trek here.
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Cody B
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:01am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming

BLM and a Churchill statue you say? Here’s that proof you asked for. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1311392/Black-lives-matter-Winston-Churchill-Treasury-room-Westminster-Whitehall/amp

They went after Gandhi to. Know you have quoted Gandhi before so BLM going after him might be conflict of interests for you. Also BLM is not one thing. It can mean simply and literally “Black Lives Matter”, which should be obvious but I suppose it needs reiterated and put in the face of some people, or it can also mean a phony political agenda or scam fundraising.
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:00am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Jason
"That's the playbook - shriek and yell and tell us the statues must come down because they being there is an intolerable act of "violence" against whoever and simultaneously tell us how we are making such a drama over just a few statues and who cares so much about them? Hardee har they're just some little ol' statues why get so worked up?"

That's exactly the playbook, and it's not just the statues.

If something offends their side, they are entitled to a free pass to do whatever they want about it, including breaking the law.

If something they do offends someone else... well, tough luck.

And the really scary thing is that so many people are falling for it. Otherwise, it wouldn't have had any impact.

See, these people know a thing or two about psychology. They know that if you frame it as "a protest against police brutality" and "systematic racism" then millions will give you a free pass to do whatever you want. Never mind that 99% of their actions have absolutely nothing to do with these goals. People don't care, once the psychological connection was made.

No doubt, this situation is going to go down as classing warning tale in the history books. The story of how a few militant groups managed to manipulate a strong democracy into committing suicide... by cynically manipulating the good heart of its people.
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Jason R.
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:50am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming I am going to try to focus on the important point and stop permitting myself to be distracted by side issues. Here is how I see things. Feel free to disagree with any point in partiular:

1. George Floyd is murdered (or at least man slaughtered or whatnot) by a police officer;

2. Something is wrong with police and policing in North America;

3. While police brutality is not confined to black people it does appear to hit black people harder;

4. We agree that racist predilections or attitudes among the police likely contribute to black people being hit harder by the problem;

5. Black Lives Matter wants to do *something* to solve this problem.

Here is where I lose the plot because I honestly can't go any further. And apparently no one on this board can either because no one can provide an answer to the question: "how do we make the police less brutal?"

These are by and large Democrat run cities some with black mayors so blaming Trump is a cop-out as he has nothing to do with policing at a local level. We went through this 6 years ago with Michael Brown and Ferguson and apparently nothing changed.

Why did nothing change? And what policy do you think will change things? Be specific. You are the sociologist. I implore you - tell us what needs to be done to eliminate George Floyd style policing *without* rolling back to the bad old days of Bernard Goetz era NYC.

Out of curiosity, how are the police in Germany? Are they better? If not, which country do you think has the best police and why?
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:31am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming
"And because Jason and his peers like to use singular voices as representative of the entire left everywhere..."

There are plenty of sane leftists out there. There are plenty of leftists who didn't forget what the words "liberal" and "progressive" used to mean.

See, it isn't "Jason and his peers" who refuses to accept their existence. It is you guys. It is the extreme left who insists on rejecting any person who doesn't accept the extreme craziness you call "the left" from your own lines.
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OmicromThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:09am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

@Booming
"Omicron let's make this clear once and for all.

I stopped talking to you a while back because you insulted me."

That's exactly the problem:

You have this tendency to write broad overconfident statements, and when people call out your BS, you see it as an insult.

Now, I wouldn't have even bothered to bring this up here, if it was just about you and me. Nobody cares about that. I'm bringing it up because this is very common behavior, which hinders the ability to have an actual open honest discussion.

And it's not like the people who do this hold any of their punches, either. Come on, Booming, you never hold your punches either, when you spot somebody else talking bullsh*t.

"But you are right, not talking to you is like a Human rights violation and clearly shows my murderous convictions."

Don't be ridiculous. I myself called the situation "silly".

But it's a silly example of a much bigger problem, which - at times - can cause great harm.

And I do see direct parallels between this and cancel culture. People don't like something, so the follow a two-step process:

(1) Frame that "something" as offensive (insulting, racist, etc)
(2) Use step #1 to rationalize a boycott of that unpleasant thing.

Of-course, sometimes these claims are true. Sometimes forum members are out to troll you and/or derail the discussion. Sometimes a twit really is racist. Sometimes the person you're firing really is a scumbag you shouldn't want to be in your organization.

But these days, many people don't even care whether it's "true" or not. They make these decisions by a gut feeling at best, and some kind of political agenda at worst.

"I, after you behaved poorly, made a choice to no longer talk to you and informed you about that. Instead of respecting that..."

Listen to yourself.

You speak about punishing a fellow commenter for "poor behavior" and expect them to respect that? Seriously?

And here again, there are parallels between this silly little incident and what's going in the world. The way some people feel so entitled is simply mind-boggling. What's next? You're going to demand that I kiss your shoes and apologize?

Sorry, but I'm not going to "respect" any of this sh*t.

(though I'm not actively looking for ways to insult you, either. I'm simply refusing to cooperate with childish demands)
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Booming
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:06am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

And because Jason and his peers like to use singular voices as representative of the entire left everywhere, lets bring in a right wing voice.
That is from one those North carolina detectives: Piner told Moore he feels a civil war is coming and that he is ready. Piner said he was going to buy a new assault rifle, and soon "we are just going to go out and start slaughtering them (expletive)" blacks. "I can't wait. God, I can't wait."

I guess that means all on the right are racist and very eager to start a genocide.

Case closed.

And with these soothing words I'm out of the madness pit.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 4:57am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S5: Thirty Days

“wouldn't 0700 be breakfast?”

Exactly what I was going to say! I guess the writers had a brain fart and mixed up 0700 with 1900.
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