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William B
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: Crossover


"Don't be sad. Though I believe what Rene Echevarria said about TNG w/r/t DS9 was accurate, it should just make you all the more impressed that TNG so often managed to thrive under those conditions."

Yeah, that's a good point, and I do think that too. It reminds me about Piller's pride about getting stories to work within the Roddenberry box. And part of my love for TNG is that the constraint was to find ways to make the characters and situations feel real and believable while trying to show humans behaving generally better than 1) they do now, and 2) than they often behave in fiction, because of the various pragmatic requirements of what makes stories entertaining. It's not easy to do that. I do feel a bit less happy with the implications that the writers were overall sometimes unhappy with their creation, but even there I get that it's mostly a relative thing. I can see how writing for DS9 -- which, to be clear, I still think is a very good show, even though I can be down on it some of the time -- would be more rewarding and that's not really a slight against TNG.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

@Peter G

Keiko, up to this point in TNG or DS9, has yet to be portrayed as a harpy.

In this episode, she starts out tired and irritated after a long trip that included dealing with Lwaxana Troi. This disappoints Miles. She and Miles are both on edge and have some minor communication issues, snipping at each other a bit. But then they go out for a nice dinner. Things are going well, but during dinner Miles disappoints Keiko with his angry reaction to her desire to stay two extra months, and there's a bit more snipping.

Miles regrets his anger, and very sincerely apologizes through the bedroom door. Keiko, still hurt from Miles' angry outburst, asks for time to think. She realizes how wonderful what he has just said to her was, and she puts on his favorite red dress to go find him and tell him how much she loves and appreciates him.

They're all happy smiles when they say goodbye.

That's how it played for me, and I'm mystified by the comments about Keiko being bitchy, divorce on the horizon, etc. They clearly love and appreciate and are physically attracted to each other. They've both made sacrifices for one another, over the years. They love their child. They have a good marriage.

While I agree that it serves no good purpose to portray Keiko as a harpy, I disagree with the notion that she has been portrayed as a harpy.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:19pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

"I just see that the writers failed to draw a connection between the fictional economy of the 24th century and the economic problems depicted in the story."

That's because there really isn't any connection.

The 24th century economy (however it works exactly) hinges on the fact that they have the technology (replicators etc) to sustain a post-scarcity society. This kind of tech simply didn't exist in 2024.

In other words, that wasn't the point of the episode at all. Neither is this an episode about rivaling economic philosophies. It's amazing how easily people read political agendas into stories that have a very simple message:

Have some compassion for your fellow human beings. Don't lock up thousands of people behind walls... and then forget about them.

Sounds obvious and superfluous? Look around you. Look what's happening in care-centers of the elderly, orphanages, hospitals, prisons. This kind of thing happens all the time, yet very few people care about it. It's not just "the government" but the citizens as well (and I'm speaking from personal experience here).

Bashir summed it up nicely when he said this:

"Causing people to suffer because you hate them is terrible, but causing people to suffer because you have forgotten how to care? That's really hard to understand."

THAT was the point of the episode.

BTW not having a solution to the problem at hand is not an excuse to do this kind of thing to people. Not having a solution does not give us permission to make things worse, nor does it give us permission to dehumanize them.

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Jeffrey Jakucyk
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S5: Timeless

Patrick said:

"My main issue with this episode was Janeway's choice to land the ship on a planet. With inertial dampeners offline, and hull breaches happening all over the ship, the Voyager crew should have:

1)AVOIDED landing the ship,
2)AVOIDED any kind of acceleration/deceleration
3)Tried evacuation by shuttles & escape pods

(it's b/c they landed the ship that they were destroyed)

Other than that, the episode is very solid."

Exactly! There's nothing about tumbling out of control in the emptiness of space that wouldn't be made much much worse by trying to land on a planet. TNG's "Final Mission" had this same problem. Also, how convenient that there just happens to be a planet nearby. It takes hours to traverse a solar system at full impulse, and the space between solar systems is so vast that the distances are measured in lightyears, literally years of travel at warp 1. The idea that Voyager can travel 10,000 lightyears and then just happen upon a planet is several orders of magnitude more ludicrous than walking from New York to Los Angeles and finding Steve Buscemi's wallet along the way.

Still a great episode.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:44pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

Hmm. Was surprised to see the rave reviews for Part 1. The story was fine but this two part offering is not up there with the great Trek eps, IMO.

I can't imagine getting to a place where I would put a Sisko-centric episode up there with the greats. Brooks is not good. He isn't good in this. He occasionally has decent scenes. He's often truly terrible. It really throws cold water on many an ep, for me.

Definitely, we come up against some of those paradoxes that Janeway always dismissed a giving her a headache, and I always followed her lead. I have no trouble ignoring the paradoxes, or the techno babble, though it did bother me a bit, that they seemed to have come much too close to figuring out a way to easily time travel as they wished, using the transporter.

Yes, indeed, the story was preachy and simplistic, and didn't really show a sophisticated, realistic understanding of mental illness, homelessness, or even human nature, in general. I prefer the eps that aren't preachy and simplistic, but I appreciate and accept that these sorts of "how the Earth became Utopia" eps are a part of the Trekverse.

A good offering overall.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion


"This thread is one of the whiniest and obnoxious I’ve seen in a long time. Projection much? I didn’t recognize any of the supposedly preachy or “SJW” elements in DSC..."

Nice strawman you have there.

There wasn't a single person here who complained about Discovery being "SJW" (whatever that term even means. Whenever I type these three letters I can feel another neuron dying in my brain).

" I was called a 'gatekeeper' because I argued that Star Trek should be about something other than generic science fiction and stick true to its liberal humanist roots. Can franchises grow and evolve? Sure! But what's the point of a franchise if it leaves behind everything and anything that made us fall in love with it in the first place? "


I'm getting really sick and tired of people playing this "the classic-Trek fans cannot handle anything new" card while completely ignoring our specific points of criticism. There's also something quite ironic in that argument, given that there's nothing really new or bold in Discovery. Sure, it is doing stuff differently than other trek. But does it do anything differently from any other generic sci fi action series that we've seen in the past 10 years?

Oh, well... at least we still have the obvious shills to amuse us. I just love it when people who never posted here before, drop by to post a single comment that basically says "stop moaning. I'm a longtime fan of Star Trek and I find Discovery fantastic. Besides, it's just a TV show". Yeah, a longtime Trekkie saying that it's just a TV show... really believable ;-)

As Garak once said, these guys need to learn how to make their lies less transparent ;-)
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

Watching and commenting

--This is well done so far. I don't have much of an affinity for Sisko or Bashir, which makes this less engaging than it could be for me.

--I like that we're having a little Trek Time Travel Fun with Miles and Kira.

--Well, lots of political comments come to mind. But I don't wanna go there.

--And all's well that ends well. The ending "How could they have let things get so bad?" asks Bashir. Ah, Julian.

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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:52pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

Thoughts on the new Discovery trailer: I could do without the stakes of the villain wanting to "end all sentient life in the galaxy". What is good, though, is that characters like Tyler and Stamets will be free to exist as people this season, rather than as plot functions the way they did in S1. Also good to see Saru's sister, glad there will be more Saru material. Feeling fairly positive about Anson Mount but not sold on the new Spock or (still) SMG - and the less Mirror Georgiou, the better. Hoping for more of an ensemble feel rather than the story once again being told from Burnham's perspective.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:15pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part I

Watching and commenting:

--Transported through time. That's a new one. Wow. I'm not looking forward to 2024.

--Hard not to notice how close 2024 is to now, and how much doesn't match reality, and what does.

--A cure for schizophrenia by 2024? If only, Bashir.

--Nice contrast between the Sanctuary area and Dax's opulent surroundings.

--Major technobabble, paradox stuff it's best not to think about, i.e., the usual with time travel eps.

--Interesting so far. On to part 2.

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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: Crossover


I'm a bit late, but this was an interesting discussion. I'm a DS9 person all the way. It's easily my favorite Trek series and one of my all time favorites. That being said, I don't see *that* big of a gap in objective quality between DS9 and TNG (which is also one of my all time favorites). They just have different ways of telling their stories. TNG is very cerebral and intelligent, and it possibly has more all time classics than DS9 (though not by much). DS9 was undoubtedly better at character work (though TNG had some great stuff with Picard, Data and Worf), which I personally gravitate towards more. I will also say that the first two seasons of DS9 are definitely its weakest. You may feel differently by the end of the run. I must disagree with you on Voyager, however (We probably agree on Enterprise though-it was mostly awful). Though I wish it had committed itself to delivering on the potential that its premise suggested like DS9 did, I can accept that it didn't need to in order to achieve greatness. That said, I just don't think it had the characters or consistency necessary. Its first season was pretty good in my opinion, but the second and third were mostly disasters. Its fourth and fifth were its best, but even then, those would still only count as mid-tier TNG seasons. Its sixth and seventh just ran out of steam. If you want to read more about this, I recommend sfdebris's reviews or Darren Mooney's on them0vieblog. They explain why I and many others feel Voyager was a disappointment in a way far beyond nitpicking (though I must say, I think Jammer explained himself very well). I must admit though, I do get a little irritated when people say how overrated DS9 is. Yes, on this one particular site, the reviewer thought DS9 was better than Voyager. However, he's clearly not the majority. Most people would say TOS, TNG, or VOY before they'd say DS9. Even on this website, there are many, many commenters (Yanks, Elliott, William B, Patrick, Trent) who feel that DS9 is on par or worse than the other Trek series, and overrated by Jammer (This isn't a slight on you guys btw-even though I disagree, I enjoy reading your comments, and you seem like nice people).

@William B-Don't be sad. Though I believe what Rene Echevarria said about TNG w/r/t DS9 was accurate, it should just make you all the more impressed that TNG so often managed to thrive under those conditions.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:03pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: Paradise

Kidnapping Sisko and O'Brien, locking Sisko in the box, and trying to destroy the runabout.

Just to add on, I really think the writers specifically intended to not take a position on which lifestyle is "better." Alixus is strong willed and won't accept technology, the regular characters are strong willed and won't accept subsistence farming, but most people just go along with whatever they're doing at the moment.

If the writers had really wanted to take a position that the colony lifestyle was better, they could have brought along a redshirt who decides to stay behind, like in "Space Seed." And O'Brien might have had a few lines about how of course they can't stay, but wouldn't it maybe be nice to be able to? But they didn't. The closest thing is Alixus saying she has unspecified support from unspecified scientists, a weird statement to be sure (why scientists specifically?) but she's also not a reliable source.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 4:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

@Peter G-

The whole subplot is just a depressing drag that tells us nothing new, except further impress on us that the Miles/Keiko relationship should probably end very soon. It doesn't help that the acting is very stilted.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 3:25pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: Playing God

Really didn't enjoy this episode. 3 of the things I least like on DS9 are Trill episodes (there aren't many), Farrell as an actress, and half-assed attempts at sci-fi with heavy technobabble. The Ferengi are another I least like but at least they're not part of the mediocre episode that is "Playing God", which features 3 of my DS9 pet peeves.

Found it hard to care about Arjin the initiate and how he has to stand up for himself etc. There were some good heart-to-heart talks like between Sisko and Jadzia after which she gets a bit more confrontational with Arjin -- thought this was necessary. Also Quark has a useful heart-to-heart talk with Arjin that pulls him out of drinking his future away. But the overall plot of Arjin the initiate was dull.

The proto-universe things was weak -- the flight scene for its disposal in the wormhole had some interesting visuals but was it ever arbitrary -- of course it works out for a happy ending. And so Jadzia and Arjin just dump the proto-universe in the Gamma Quadrant and return to DS9? Is that how to solve the problem? Make it somebody else's? And what BS about Sisko having an hour to "play god". Also couldn't stand the technobabble about the proto-universe's expansion, destruction, containment etc. TNG would have handled this type of subplot/plot better.

There were some loose ends like the Cardassian voles and Jake's interest in a Dabo girl. Just symptomatic of a poorly thought out episode.

There was a bit of backstory on Jadzia and Curzon, a character that sounds quite interesting. The episode did give Arjin enough time to show his character as well -- wasn't that convincingly acted though. Just really hard to care.

2 stars for "Playing God" -- started out seemingly as a light-hearted almost whimsical episode but then came the imminent crisis part. Arjin's flight skills were successful in an arbitrary way and of course he gets a good sendoff from Jadzia. Some useful tidbits about Trills and a few good dialogs but overall a mess of an episode, uninteresting, and ultimately maybe even irresponsible with disposing of the proto-universe and maybe even Jadzia's assessment of Arjin.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 3:22pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: The Maquis, Part II

I watched season 3´s "Heart of Stone" today, the Marquis Odo and Kira chase at the beginning turns out to be the female changeling. When asked how she got her hands on a Marquis ship, she responds that Odo cannot expect her to give him all the answers. I am seriously starting to consider that "the changelings were behind the Marquis" was indeed a secret part of the plot.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 3:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Haven

Maybe I missed something but how did these people, who were said to be at a 20th century technology level when they wiped out most of their species, manage to build such advanced starships?
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Sean Hagins
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 1:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S6: Life Line

I didn't like this one much. But at least the actress who played Hayley was cute

Hehe! Seriously though, it just wasn't my kind of story
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Sean Hagins
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 12:23pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S6: Live Fast and Prosper

I don't know what's wrong with you people! I loved this episode back in the day, and still do! It's fun watching con artists con people (ever see "The Sting"?) and it's fun watching them be caught and given their just deserts. The guy pretending to be Tuvok was hilarious! It's all in good fun people-lighten up!
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Peter G.
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 12:03pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

@ Springy,

Funny enough, I'm not sure I agree that the "realistic" portrayal of the O'Briens is a saving grace; for me it actually drags down the episode, and in particular makes Keiko look bad. Sure, relationships can actually be like this, but I don't really see the value in digging into how things can fail to live up to expectation when there's basically no redemptive element in how it's shown. "Things can suck"...ok, yeah...but what about the value of working through them? That element has to be there, or else it just ends up looking like a screed against marriage.

Contrast that with all the 'fascination' scenarios we see, where the mystique of realizing for the first time how wonderful someone is has people falling over themselves. In a way it's not surprising that it's only shown as being romantic/sexual, but the basic idea of seeing someone you already know and going "wow, how did I not see that before" is actually a beautiful one. And that's the sort of thing that should be happening in a marriage as well: you see your spouse, who you know, and yet allow yourself to re-experience the surprise of how amazing they are, as if for the first time. That would be the ideal, in any case, and maybe showing how that could be difficult - but still possible - would have been a better way to frame the O'Briens here. But just showing that all the mystery and romance is gone, that I do not need, and especially since in some other episodes they actually do show that the fire isn't burned out for the two of them.

Despite it being written and shot in an often silly and broad manner, I do like the portrayal of people fully acting out those little moments we can have of a spark welling up inside us when we see someone with great qualities. We don't act on them, of course, but an outer exploration of just how significant and powerful those sparks are strikes me as being well within bounds of good storytelling. My main problem here is that they don't really use it here to tell us something meaningful about the characters. Like, how does it help us to know that Bareil may secretly crush a little on Dax? It's totally useless and in fact we basically have to scrub it from our minds to retain our sanity. But on the other hand the Dax->Sisko attraction actually could have led to something fruitful if they had dared to go there, but maybe it's better they didn't. But at least there was the *potential* of something interesting there.

My point is just that I actually like the idea of expanding on secret and even small 'likes' towards others, whereas portraying Keiko as a harpy not only doesn't help us to appreciate others, but actually poisons us towards appreciating their marriage. So I guess for me that's my least favorite part of the episode, despite being the most sensible.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:48am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

After reading commentary:

William B said: "I take Keiko's standoffishness early on as being the result both of being tired and of trying to figure out how to bring up the idea of staying for another few months."

Agree, though I also had the strong impression that Keiko had had to endure Lwaxana's overbearing manner and non-stop chatter the whole trip, while Lwaxana kept giving Molly candy (no doubt despite Keiko's objections).

They're both on edge and anxious about seeing each other again. I think there's some suggestion, for Miles, that reality isn't meeting his fantasies of Keiko coming off the shuttle, glowing, adoring, fresh as a daisy, and preferably in a tight dress. And for Keiko, Miles disappoints her dreams of a smiling, encouraging, Miles, with his knee-jerk reaction to the need for another two months on Bajor.

It's all normal marriage/relationship stuff - and the ep is about reality vs fantasy. For the O'Briens, we see that their bond is ultimately based in reality.

This ep is bad, but not as bad as Meridian or Move Along Home. There's the O'Briens, a saving grace for me, and there the fact that it's meant to be a farce. It's a badly done farce, yes. But to me, that's better than a farce that is posing as something more.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:00am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Penumbra


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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:46am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

Watching and commenting:

--O'Brien and Bashir with a good scene about O'Brien missing his family. But they're due for a visit. Bariel coming too. And Lwaxana!! Yuh-oh.

--Bajoran 26-hr Thanksgiving. They burn papers instead of the turkey.

--Lwaxana is so very overbearing. Why does no one "just say no?"

--Keiko and Miles on edge. Their banter is so good though. Very at home, every day, when both partners are feeling anxious.

--Quark with a Bajoran earring on his massive ear.

--Something going wrong with everyone. Very, very boring so far.

--Dysfunction at the holidays is traditional, but this makes my family look pretty good.

--Lame explanation. Oh, the stupidity.

--Keiko and O'Brien are the only saving grace.

Pass the potatoes.
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Peter G.
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:46am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Paradise Lost

@ Jason R.

"Each Admiral always seems like an emperor in each episode. How many admirals are there anyway? Were they all going along with this coup?"

Maybe an issue that should have been touched upon is trust, and how much of it flows on Earth. In our current world there isn't very much trust: we assume politicians are corrupt and are out to screw us, and we assume our fellow man would throw us under the bus for money. But imagining for the moment if in 24th century Earth this was unthinkable, I could see how offensive it would be to Grampa Sisko to have his loyalty questioned, and how scary it would be to have guards on the street as if Earthers themselves couldn't be trusted. Along those same lines, maybe Leyton was so trusted by other admirals that if he said martial law was necessary then they would assume he had a good reason and would go along with it. Maybe the extreme trust on Earth is what he was cashing in on to make his move, so that they would only learn too late that the security measures were based on a hoax. Presumably by then Leyton would have cemented his people into key places to cover that up or something, and he could keep milking "security against Changelings" for a long time. I don't know how he could sustain that long-term, but assuming his really felt motivated by securing the Federation, maybe he would have voluntarily relinquished power if he truly felt that the threat was over. This part wasn't ever addressed, since I'm not at all sure he was trying to become emperor or something. I suspect that the episode's idea is that he believed extreme measures were needed for the sake of security and that a little lying and sabotage to get it done was warranted. In theory I think he believed he was being a patriot.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:46am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Homefront

Also, always makes me laugh that the left harp on about tolerance and love... until someone or something disagrees with their world view. Liberalism isn't in you. You aren't true liberals at all - just nasty, intolerant, "progressive" bigots.
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Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:44am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Homefront

None of the Treks are right wing. Theya re all leftist and written by leftist people. I think what Elliott means is that there are a few stories or situations that are actually realistic - or deviate from Bernie Sanders' bum.
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Jason R.
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:39am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Paradise Lost

Each Admiral always seems like an emperor in each episode. How many admirals are there anyway? Were they all going along with this coup?

So little about it makes sense. Why would the rest of starfleet go along with this? What makes this guy think for a second they would just fall in line?

This coup has more holes in it than Sela's hare brained plan to conquer Vulcan.
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