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zanki
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 2:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You

'' event plot lines '' ...lol whatever that means.

As opposed to what cheesy TOS plot lines that put a smear on TNG's first two seasons and makes for laughable conversations on these same boards....
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C
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 2:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S1: Time and Again

Jamie, probably related to the fact that the “idealistic utopian sci-fi future” writers ditched DS9 in order to work on Voyager.
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Cas
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 2:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S3: Future's End, Part I

In this episode, Janeway says she hates time travel stories. Probably explains why she acted completely miserable in Time And Again, that season 1 episode about the Polaric accident. The way she acted throughout that entire episode, it was like someone was holding her at gunpoint and telling her to deliver those lines!
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Tommy D.
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 2:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

@Mertov

I agree. I think it would be difficult for a lot of episodes to withstand the 24/7 cynicism and scrutiny we see today.
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Austin
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I’d say 3 stars is about right. It wasn’t a great first season, but what Star Trek series (besides TOS) has ever had a great first season? I expressed my displeasure in part 1 as being an Augments rehash, but thankfully they made up for it in the last half of this one. It almost made me forget about the über dark tone, unnecessary cursing, red herring buffet, and having so little of Picard in a show called Picard.

But to bookend this exploring Picard and Data’s relationship was fantastic. I think it was a way to bridge the gap from a great finish on TNG, through some bad movies, and into new territory. Time will tell if the journey was worth it, but if the follow up is more like the ending and not like the 8 episodes of exposition and filler, I’d say we have a lot to look forward to.
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Patrick D
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

I guess I'm alone in this arena. I've been watching TNG for decades and I still love it. Even seasons 1 and 2 are more watchable *to me* than most of of Voyager and Enterprise. Part of it might be nostalgia. Part of it might be than I know that some of the weaker episodes of those early seasons (like "Hide and Q" and "Datalore") lead to bigger and better things down the road. Even at its worst, TNG strived to be a thoughtful show (with exceptions like "Sub Rosa" and "Genesis").

I don't need Trek to be ultra-jaded like The Sopranos and I don't need it to be paced like a Fast and the Furious movie. Just let it make me think, feel, experience something unique and wonderful and help me see the world in a different way. And would it kill Trek to be cultured, inspiring and humanistic again? Can't they give us one new spin-off in the true spirit of the first two Roddenberry-created Trek shows? Just one?
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Buckbart
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Journey's End

I'm in the minority who like this one, despite some technical and story flaws. If you're thoroughly devoted to hating Wesley, then you don't get Eugene Wesley Roddenberry's reason for creating him in the first place. Others in the trekiverse have shifted planes, so that's okay too. And hey, he dated Ensign Lefler, so I'm jealous!

My big letdown here is Wesley's trite "thanks for everything" to Picard. Yeah, 47 minutes and all that jazz, but they could have carved out another 30 seconds for someone who is capable of evolving to really thank the one man mostly responsible for his opportunity to do that, and who essentially his surrogate father. THat was the weakest part.
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Alex
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S3: The Chute

"Ex Post Facto," anyone? In that episode, too, Paris was wrongfully convicted by an alien race of a crime he didn't commit, and sentenced to undergo surgery; specifically, for the insertion of a brain implant that f**ked with his mind.
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Buckbart
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Firstborn

Season 7 is about closing out everyone's stories, and I was really happy that they included James Sloyan in that mission. He is one of the most sympathetic and enjoyable guest actors in every role over three series. No prosthetics can hide his distinctive voice, much the way we recently enjoyed J.G. Hertzler in BD. If he'd started his tv career before 1970, I'd hope he would have been in TOS as well.
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Alex
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:27pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S3: Basics, Part II

The difficulty of retaking the ship without causing catastrophic damage, or at least without the departing Kason stripping the damaged ship of vital technology or even deliberately sabotaging it, is grossly underplayed.
My elegant solution: During the Kason occupation of Voyager, besides whatever mayhem Suder carries out, the Doctor should have flooded the air ducts with a Kason-specific pathogen he quickly improvises. If that seems too brutal, it wouldn't even have to be a lethal microorganism - just some disease that slowly but surely causes the Kason to waste away, interfering with their thinking process, thwarting their plans, and which, ultimately, "softens them up" to the idea of peacefully relinquishing control of Voyager when the original crew shows up (perhaps Janeway promises a cure in exchange for the return of an intact Voyager).
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Mertov
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Yanks:
"Well John, I've seen both VOY and ENT all the way through (DVD's and binging) at LEAST 6 times. Thoroughly enjoyable each time.

In fact, I find the MOST enjoyable Trek to re-watch is Voyager. The least is TNG.

And in case you need to know, I've been a Trek fan since the 70's."

Yanks, for what its worth, like you I have been a Trekkie since early 70s also. Pluto TV has been showing reruns of TNG's first couple of seasons (mostly) in a loop on one of their channels, and it's the first time in my life I believe that I no longer have Star Trek reruns on the background as I am doing things around the house. In the past, if a TV channel had reruns of Trek, I would always have it on unless there was something else specific that I wanted to watch on TV elsewhere. But those early episodes are just not aging well. In fact, BBC America is showing reruns of TNG's late seasons and DS9 on selected times and I have those on all the time, if I am not watching anything else in particular. Those are good. That is why I believe DS9 has great staying power. Voyager reruns ahve not lost their magic for me either, if a channel had them on reruns, I would also put it on.
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Buckbart
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Journey's End

I'm in the minority who like this one, despite some technical and story flaws. If you're thoroughly devoted to hating Wesley, then you don't get Eugene Wesley Roddenberry's reason for creating him in the first place. Others in the trekiverse have shifted planes, so that's okay too.

My big letdown here is Wesley's trite "thanks for everything" to Picard. Yeah, 47 minutes and all that jazz, but they could have carved out another 30 seconds for someone who is capable of evolving to really thank the one man mostly responsible for his opportunity to do that, and who essentially his surrogate father. THat was the weakest part.
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Triniray
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 1:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: First Contact

A review within a review that's 5 times the length of the Parent Review???! Okay then.
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Mertov
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 12:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Tommy: "I think time, streaming services, and binge watching resulting in many repeated viewings have become very kind to a lot of Trek's mediocre and poor outings. Not that I think thats a bad thing in any way, but its just more of a personal observation when I read across different boards."

Yes Tommy I agree, Imagine if we had some of the early TNG episodes air today and people had a full week to dissect on multiple youtube shows, podcasts, and message boards an episode like "Code of Honor" or "Aquiel" or "Justice." Oh the insanity :)
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Tommy D.
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 12:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

@John

I really think the format of old or "classic" Trek lends itself really well to streaming and binging. And while it may seem surprising that someone would latch onto a random Trek this way, I think we're likely biased from having watched them in order of appearance, rather than starting at a random point.

Personally, I've enjoyed VOY and ENT far more upon rewatch than I ever did when they were running weekly. I'm far less critical of them than I was 20 years ago. I can watch blocks of DS9 no problem, but I am less enamored with TNG than I was as a kid. I rarely watch TOS anymore, but will watch the movies from time to time.

@Jason R. and @Patrick

I have a friend who absolutely refuses to watch DS9. Went from TNG right to VOY and ENT. Hates that it takes place on a space station and doesn't like The Defiant. Also a big fan of Bakula and Picardo. Tough sell indeed.
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Mertov
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 12:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

@John said: "I would have expected the opposite, and it surprises me that anyone becomes a new fan of some of the older Trek shows anymore. I don't know anyone who hasn't already seen the whole of, say, Voyager or Enterprise, would have the patience to sit through them today."

And you would probably be right John. The viewing habits have changed, as well as the audience.

In my observation of interacting with multiple dozens of college students every semester through a decade now (and the first thing they know about me is what a Trekkie I am :)) ) what I notice immediately, when it comes time to talk media consumption habits in the US vs internationally, and I bring in the Star Trek topic, is that none of them cares to sit through the Original Series or TNG. It's simply not in their area of interest. For them, they are shows that their parents watched so they caught some of it in "the living room" with them. I have yet to see a college student become a Trekkie today because of TOS or TNG. They think much of it is corny and cheesy. I have been able to convince some to give DS9 a try and had some success with it, but the biggest trend I have noticed over the last 12 years of being around them, in terms of becoming a Trek watcher, is the impact of Voyager, Star Trek 2009 movie, and Discovery (not so much Picard, again, they are reluctant to watch it due to the TNG background of the main character). For example, I even had a few who were telling me about the third season premiere date earlier in the semester and expressing their excitement for it. Not a single one is even remotely interested to hear me every time I say "hey, you should start / try out the Original Series / The Next Generation first."

I see frankly where they are coming from, I like rewatches of all Trek shows (except Enterprise, I tried it two years ago and it was painful, as painful as the first time around), but I agree that many of the TOS and TNG episodes (and DS('s first two seasons) are now hard to sit through - and some downright terrible, not getting better with time either like DS 9 is for example. You can criticize these youngsters or attack today's audience for being "superficial" or "stupid" or "dumb" if you wish, but I think anyone who does that would be advertising their self-centered nature for thinking they belong to some intellectual higher ground over a whole generation of bright people (and yes, they are bright).

The viewing habits and audiences have changed. Two long-time Trek novel writers had a podcast about that and a fruitful discussion on how they have evolved themselves as viewers too (I can't remember who, one of them was David Mack I believe, but I could be wrong) and that they like the old series for what they were at the time and that they enjoy still watching them because they bring back nostalgia and how they felt when they first watched it, but they do not believe they would make good viewing as a first Trek show for today's audience including themselves. I found myself agreeing with them too. And that is what John also says below, if I understand correctly:

"If I was streaming Voyager today for the first time, by season 3 at the latest I'd be such saying "screw this, there are better things to do/watch". It's highly likely I wouldn't have got past S1 of TNG either."

With Voyager during its original airing, even I was beginning to get tired of the formula by its 6th and 7th seasons, and maybe that is also why I was probably never truly captivated by ENT (same formula again, never mind that it rehashed old stories with boring narratives, and had ridiculous acting moments by multiple main-cast members) although I stuck with it (during its original airing). It was "meh." But when I tried a rewatch a couple of years ago, it was even worse I skipped some episodes to even make it bearable to finish a rewatch (never again).
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Carly
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 12:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Genesis

The opening was intriguing but quickly became gross and dumb, with Worf belching crudely over his heaped plate of animal parts.

I don’t mind the wacky DNA science. I mostly mind the tedious expository device of Data and Picard walking slowly from room to room, pointing, describing, and painstakingly explaining the plot to each other and the unfortunate audience.
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Yanks
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 12:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You

@ MidshipmanNorris

"I. Just. Want. To. Watch. A. Good. Show.

ST:DISCO Season 3 Ep 1 seems like it could be the building blocks of good shows. I hope this is the case.

Either you cook the stew properly, or it tastes like yesterday's socks.

WRITE. A. STORY."

Yup, I'm pretty much in the same boat here. Trek is even simpler for me.

- Good folks doing the right things for the right reasons -

It can even not be great writing and I'm fine most of the time as long as they aren't shitting on something. Great writing only elevates it.
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Jason R.
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 11:51am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

"This is purely anecdotal, but the Trek show--indeed the TV show, in general--that I've had the worst time talking people into watching was Deep Space Nine. All the people I've tried to talk into watching the show are deeply intelligent people with otherwise good taste, but there's never been a person who seemed enthusiastic about watching it and some have voiced disdain. In some ways it's the most critically acclaimed Trek show, but it is also a HARD sell."

I love DS9 but I never watched it on its first run and didn't discover it until it was off the air. This is odd because I grew up with TNG as a child of the 80s and DS9 came right off TNGs success at the height of the Berman era. I also did watch Voyager when it first aired for several seasons even though I disliked it almost immediately yet continued to watch.

So why is DS9 such a hard sell even to fans of Trek?

Some will say the first season was weak but that is a cop out - Voyager's was even worse. I remember hating Voyager's first season especially the dreary Kazon who I never wanted to see again after Caretaker but kept coming back. But I just kept watching anyway, week after week!

Trying to put myself back in my younger self age 13 when Ds9 came on the air? The word "dark" comes to mind, but not tonally - I mean aesthetically.

I think DS9's hard sell is due to a couple of very superficial factors: the title of the show and the art design. The title has a certain hard scifi edge to it that I think puts people off. It reminds me of Moon44. It is gritty. It is utilitarian. It sounds like an Interstellar bus terminal.

The art design is very "dark" with an ugly utilitarian Cardassian designed Station. The opening sequence is just this ugly station round and round - it is dark and monotone.

Note I am not taking issue with the opening or the space station design insofar as I don't hate them on an artistic level - quite the contrary - but the off the cuff feeling you get could be slightly offputting and alien / uncomfortable. It is anything but warm and fuzzy.

Compare this to Voyager which was a simple uncomplicated title and a sleek pretty space ship design that evokes optimism and wonder. The Voyager opening showing a pretty iconic Trekkian style starship sailing through pretty alien vistas with its booming orchestral notes evokes wonder and optimism and "light" - the total antithesis of DS9's opening.
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Chrome
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 11:51am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

It just goes to show the diversity of Star Trek's content and consequently the diversity of the fanbase. "Lower Decks" is actually a really a great example of a show that will divide the fanbase. On the one hand it's absolutely got some familiar Trek aspects like episodic space aesops, the TNG-styled ships/uniforms and a plethora of alien planets. But on the other hand, it's an animated series loaded with edgy humor which understandably turns off some fans regardless of the quality of the show.
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Patrick D
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:54am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

This is purely anecdotal, but the Trek show--indeed the TV show, in general--that I've had the worst time talking people into watching was Deep Space Nine. All the people I've tried to talk into watching the show are deeply intelligent people with otherwise good taste, but there's never been a person who seemed enthusiastic about watching it and some have voiced disdain. In some ways it's the most critically acclaimed Trek show, but it is also a HARD sell.

On the flip side, Firefly was the easiest show I've ever got many people to watch and love. Go figure.
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Yanks
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:50am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Well John, I've seen both VOY and ENT all the way through (DVD's and binging) at LEAST 6 times. Thoroughly enjoyable each time.

In fact, I find the MOST enjoyable Trek to re-watch is Voyager. The least is TNG.

And in case you need to know, I've been a Trek fan since the 70's.
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Booming
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:08am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You

Yeah while it is legitimate to just want a good story, if you say Star Trek is just good stories and space travel than that is a very broad definition. Then 2001 a space odyssey is Star Trek, BSG is Star Trek, The Expanse is Star Trek and so on.
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Jason R.
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:03am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: Evolution

"Aside from the soap, unfortunately, this is a prime embarrassing example of the worst science in Star Trek being computer science. You put salt and pepper on an egg in ST and you’ve created an intelligent new life form that must be protected."

Lol 1000% agreed.

It's not the fact that 24th century science can conjure up advanced AI from nothing (Moriarty, nanites, exocomps, Emergence....) that is ridiculous but that everyone always keeps acting so surprised when it happens. It's like they don't know how their own technology works. Are they idiots or something?

Do they let children play with antimatter too? Oh wait - in Peak Performance Wesley's school project literally contains antimatter - stupid question I guess haha
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Jason R.
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 8:44am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You

"So, my point is this: for me, "good Star Trek" has always just been about "good writing." I have no preconceived notions about whether the story should be Big or Small, or Optimistic or Dark, or Family-Friendly or Violent, or anything like that. I just want it to be well-written, creative, compelling, intelligent, all those sorts of things, regardless of what theme, tone, or approach the writers choose to take."

I agree but only to a point. People watch Star Trek not merely because it is well written but because it is *Star Trek*.

This isn't some meaningless abstraction. Corporations pay billions of dollars for "brands" which includes the rights to call their product a certain name and tap into that good will.

Saying that you don't care what it is as long as it is "good" implies that such brands don't matter at all which is nonsense. Slap a Star Trek label on anything and some people will watch regardless of quality; that is the point of a brand!
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