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Atomguy
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 10:13am (UTC -6)
Re: TOS S2: By Any Other Name

Honestly, when I saw the cube-crushing scene, I was sure that the guy would die and girl would live. It honestly might be the first time in all of Trek that the unimportant girl character dies.
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Pokeroo
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 10:08am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

If your depressed, don't think of it as "Star Trek". Think of it as a space adventure.

For me, the Trek started with Farpoint and ended when Voyager got home. The rest is "based on Trek", but not the actual trek.
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BZ
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 9:56am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
It's not as dystopian as the trailers made it out to be

* Romulus destroyed in a supernova - this is established canon
* Reluctance on Federation's part to help the Romulans - they still seem to be hostile, so it's an understandable reaction
* Mars attacked - this is one of those unexpected threats nobody could have foreseen. Compare Wolf 359
* Banned synthetics - this is quite in character. Compare Khan and the ban on eugenics
* Picard confronted by a hostile reporter - given all of the above some anger would be expected
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Filip
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 9:45am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Hello again, everyone. It's good to be back. I didn't come back for Discovery's second season since I didn't watch it as I'd thought I would, but this I couldn't miss.
First thing I have to get out of the way is that I made my peace with the fact that this was not going to be something I’d want It to be long before it premiered. My expectations were set pretty low. And even so, to be honest, I am surprised by the generally favorable reviews by you guys.

It wasn’t horrible, by any means, but I wouldn’t call it particularly good either, especially considering the material they were working with and its immense potential. There were a couple of comments that said the show was moving too slowly, but I feel the exact opposite to be the case – the narrative sequences were moving so fast from one event to another that it was really hard to savor any of it, which, in my opinion, massively misses the point. When you bring back a character after 20 years who had been established as a thoughtful diplomat and a scholar, and have an immensely capable 80 year old lead, you want every moment to savor the two. Or at least, I do. I wanted longer pauses between the scenes, longer shots of Picard drinking his wine in the garden, more time to see all the emotions he tried to convey develop on his face and to have the show allow us to immerse ourselves in them and feel them too.

Since they decided to portray Picard as a broken man, the producers should’ve known better than to expect to evoke melancholia and try to cram so many things into one episode in such a frantic pace at the same time, because as it is, I just didn’t come across as it could’ve. There was enough material here for at least one more episode. Daj comes and goes, and I’m just left here wondering why should I care.

In his earlier comment, @Trent said it best:

“Almost everything beyond Stewart dips into overcooked melodrama, wild overacting, is rushed, or filmed with shots cut too short and given no room to breath or generate weight. Consider, for example, the opening "beauty shots" of space, all fading into each other, before we see the Enterprise D. All of these shots should be longer, allowed to be savored, as should the beautiful scenes of Picard wandering his vineyard with his dog, which are rushed with a series of frenetic fades”

I also liked your quoting of Hitchcock’s technique very much, it was really appropriate here.

There were also quite a few nonsensical turns of events that too contributed to a choppy experience. Just to give you an example, after being knocked out in the explosion, Picard wakes up on his sofa with his servants (?) pouring water on him. What? What happened in between? The servants said that the police hadn’t seen anyone but Picard on the rooftop, which implies that there was a crew out in the field, but instead of taking a knocked out 80 year old to a hospital, they just beam him in that state to his couch? We’ve seen a bunch of sequences like that in Discovery and I’m afraid the trend is going to continue here as well. Also, can you imagine how bad that Boston apartment must smell, with all those dead bodies and nobody to call the police or something?

As for the sci-fi element, I’ve read a lot of comments on other forums and sites about the idiocy of science behind cloning data from a single positron and how it makes no sense at all. Out of all the venues they could’ve taken to explain the existence of Daj, and right now I could give you five more plausible of the top of my head, they go for something that has zero scientific credibility? As I recall, Jammer, you were particularly harsh on TNG’s Genesis because of its whacky science, and yes, while it was ridiculous, it was fun. I’m interested to see if you are going to apply the same rigor to this issue here.

I could go on, but I don’t want to turn this into a rant already on the first episode. I will most definitely stick around for more. Like I said, it’s not all horrible, but the general style of direction detracts much from the show.

And @OmicronThetaDeltaPhi, I’m with you on this:
“I'm reading the comments and I can't quite believe my eyes.”
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Snitch
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 9:24am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@R.
"I miss the days where Star Trek could be used a means of examining the nature of our society, the encroachment of technology, spirituality, politics, environmentalism, terrorism, artifical life..."

I am pretty sure the new Picard series is a comment and reflection on the anti-immigrant sentiment of the Trump administration and a call to stand up against those fascist tendencies.

For the first episode it was a good outing, we shall see how the setup continues and how much of main story-line vs adventure of the week the series will provide.
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R.
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 9:13am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Omicron, you're certainly not the only person who is dismayed by the paradigm shift in Star Trek since the 2009 reboot.

Dystopias have been done before on Star Trek. Often to powerful effect in DS9 (Homefront, Parts I & II', 'In the Pale Moonlight', 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges') and even later episodes of Enterprise ('Judgment', 'Cogenitor', 'The Forgotten') but there was always a thread of optimism and hope running through all those series despite the bleak situations the protagonists were in.

With 'Discovery' and now this, I don't feel that sense of optimism or hope. Indeed, at this stage the whole thing feels rather like Star Trek after the release of 'Nemesis' in 2002 - tired, messy, bereft of hope or direction and, perhaps most profoundly, out of gas. Kind of like Admiral Picard in this new vehicle, to a certain degree.

I miss the days where Star Trek could be used a means of examining the nature of our society, the encroachment of technology, spirituality, politics, environmentalism, terrorism, artifical life... Now we have Isa Briones whaling on Romulans dressed like stormtroopers before exploding, Weird Science (TM) with this whole fractal neuronal cloning thing and, that most tired of Trek tropes, the Borg.

I think I will invest my time and energy in 'The Orville' from here on out because this boat isn't spaceworthy anymore.
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James White
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 9:02am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Jammer

A piece of advice - treat your followers less as adolescents requiring moderation. I understand where you're coming from, but your tone is starting to sound condescending. This is, after all, a forum for discussing entertainment.
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Julian
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:34am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

As for me, I loved it! One question: is this the first time we ever hear Jean-Luc Picard actually speak French?
Looking forward to episode two...
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Elderberry
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:09am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

It does seem a change from TNG high-point Pax Federation to this more combative world, but it isn't a sudden flip - the Dominion wars did massive societal damage, and the Borg had already paved the way. Enterprise showed us an earlier iteration of earth turning xenophobic in response to threat - seems fairly credible.

We also can't really tell much about this society, we've just seen a few tiny glimpses of it - Chateau Picard looked as peaceful as ever - most citizens may think it unchanged - in the TNG era there was already huge and largely irrational prejudice against genetic engineering of humans - it's just extended now to synths.
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Elderberry
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 7:59am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Enjoyed that a lot. All the comments about the uniqueness of Data made me wonder whether Picard et al ever submitted a report on Dr Juliana Tainer's little secret. Presumably she could be still 'alive' - and equipped with a lot of coding. I also wondered whether the twins thing was an echo of the Binars.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 7:57am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

I'm reading the comments and I can't quite believe my eyes.

Am I the only person here who is bothered by the fact that the Trekverse has been turned into some kind dystopia? It seems that the same people who had this exact same problem with Discovery, suddenly accept it now without any problem.

Do you realize what this means for TNG, if we accept any of this as canon? What it means for the inspiring message behind many TNG episodes, to "know" that in 20 years the federation is going to look like this?

It may be good TV, but it's depressing as f***.
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MidshipmanNorris
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 7:44am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

There was one other thing.

I caught the line where they said that ANY part of Data's positronic brain which survived could be used to reconstruct him.

... At the end of "The Offspring," Data said he uploaded Lal's experience memories into his positronic brain.

I'm not sure what this means, but... It seems quite significant.
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MidshipmanNorris
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 7:35am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Curiosity got the better of me.

I'm interested, but by no means committed.

I'm gonna say this right up front and without apology: DSC and PIC are two of the LOUDEST shows I've ever watched. I CAN'T HEAR THE DIALOGUE!! Why does the music/sfx have to be so OBSCENELY LOUD?!?!? I live in an apartment building, I'm not turning it up. Landlords have a thing about 'quiet enjoyment of the premises.'

Now, with that out of the way, some points of interest plot-wise:

- Having the nasty interviewer broach the subject that the interviewee was clear they didn't want to discuss is a scene from Magnolia (Tom Cruise's character didn't wish to speak about his father). I recognized it as such, but at the same time, it speaks volumes right away about how far removed from Roddenberry's Idealism this show wants to place itself, which I believe is a good thing. Harve Bennett used to say that one of the things that he found attractive about TOS was that even though it was in the far-flung future, there were still problems, there were still heavies, and humans would remain as they are, well-intentioned, but flawed. He didn't think 400 years of technological advancement was going to elevate the human race into bliss and karma (his words, not mine), and having the media be nasty and rude to people to get a story says quite a bit about what this new vision of Trek is going to be like.

- This is, indeed, not your grandfather's Oldsmobile. The messages which were espoused in "Measure of A Man" (Cmdr. Maddox is mentioned! Hello again you jerkwad) have given way to fear and hostility about synthetics, to the point of a total ban on creation of synthetic beings. Heavy stuff, PIC. That's some very Trekian 'meat on the bone' storytelling there.

- Dahj resembles Lal quite a bit, and also has a name from Hindi, I think... (Googles)... Turns out it's closest known relative, "Dahej," in Sanskrit is "dowry." A dowry is a very old practice where the bride's father or guardian makes a payment to the groom for him to marry the daughter (as marrying a man's daughter was seen as doing them a favor at certain times in human history, since the father would no longer have to care for/feed her). Dahj also actually uses the word "OFFSPRING." I caught that.

- The way the episode ends has provoked questions. The Romulan guy spit on Dahj, her skin started disintegrating, and the disruptor on overload exploded, seeming to kill her (This is Star Trek, though, so until I see a body, I'm not convinced). If this isn't made clear by the end of Season 1, I'm gonna be upset. I really hope the writers' room for this series is a lot more focused than DSC's.

In all, my rating for it is gonna be about 3.5 stars. I'm taking points off for the 'BLAST YOUR EARS OFF' sound mixing, and btw, whoever said the soundtrack is boring is right. It's like their sound engineer is mainlining crack.
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Pokeroo
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 7:17am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

To me the Romulans didn't look like Romulans.

I found out on the internet that the Penny Dreadful guy and the two people in France were meant to be Romulan.

On re-watch, I will keep that in mind.

Other then that, it seems like a good show - not great - just "good" and a decent way to spend time killing.
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Yanks
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 6:52am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@ John Harmon

"I was really worried about Picard and I’m glad I was wrong."

Well, he's not Picard from 20 years ago, but I'm fine with the 80 year old version.

"Shockingly not everything in the trailer ended up in the first episode which I really thought would happen."

I'm not sure I like this. I think I would have rather had the trailer just reveal 'Remembrance' stuff and left us guessing for what's to come. I don't think they needed Jerry Ryan to sell this thing, or Riker. Kind of made the big reveal of the Borg Cube kind of blah.

"I’m sad that B-4 didn’t make it. I loved that aspect of the Countdown comic, that the memory transfer worked."

I'm not sad at all. B4 shouldn't have been able to handle "Data". If it could, why create Data in the first place? I'm not familiar with the Countdown Comic, but if was revealed by Dr. Agnes Jurati here that B-4 couldn't handle it.

"I’m confused as to how Picard’s rescue attempt on the Romulans was connected to the “rogue synthetics” destroying the Mars shipyard. That journalist was basically blaming him for it."

Me too... clarity forthcoming I hope.

"I’m also confused how Starfleet had a slave race of androids anyway. Wasn’t that the point of Measure Of A Man? I guess they weren’t sentient?"

MoM dodged the sentient thing all together. Data was only awarded the right to choose, not sentience.


@Rahul

"One part of the history I found dubious is the Romulan supernova and the Romulans reaching out to the Federation for help as if it was an emergency and they didn't see it coming. If anything, the Romulans are extremely good strategists and should have been able to predict their sun going supernova with plenty of time for evacuation/relocation."

I've thought this since ST2009. The whole scenario make no scientific sense what-so-ever.


@ Nolan

"I will say, that while I like DS9 for it's serialization, I don't know if Trek works as a fully serialized series. On-going plot threads, myth arcs, and some multiple episode plot arcs have shown to be really successful, in fact, DS9 and to an extent ENT showed how to do story arcs in Trek successfully, because in those there was overarcing stories and themes, but each episode maintained it's own identity and focus, whilst contributing to the bigger story, even if it was a one-off because it allowed for some pacing. I don't mind heavy serialization, but I'm starting to miss the semi-serial/episodic format. That's where Trek lives at its best I think."

I agree. While DSC appears to be stuck in the season long story arcs, I'm hoping for some sort of episodic format here, but I'm afraid I'm not going to get it. Modern TV seems to be serial... especially with the shortened seasons.


@ Tranya and Tonic

"Nice Disco tie-in with the boyfriend being a Xahean, like Tilly's friend Po."

Wow, nice catch. I completely missed that one.


I have no issue with Soji and her sister. Looking forward to learning how they made them. Having some sort of "Data" around for Picard will pay off I'm sure.

Something I forgot to post last night.... I smell Lore here... but knowing that Spiner was dead set against reviving Data I could be wrong.

Nice to see some new activity here.

Break...

Anyone know when DSC Season 3 will be available?
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Fenn
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 5:36am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: His Way

I also wanna say that Vic Fontaine is also kind of terrifying. He can just... drop into other people's holosuites? And somehow get access to the comm?

Is this guy gonna be the next Moriarty? Is DS9 gonna get re-recaptured by the Dominion and then fought off singlehandedly by a lone holographic lounge singer?
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Dave
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 3:51am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Hey Everyone

Delighted Jammer's site still has tons of followers and great discussion. Look forward to reading all the banter. Over 2 decades and this is still the best Trek discussion on the net!
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Tommy D.
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 3:32am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Loved it!
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Nolan
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 2:29am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Oh, I forgot to mention; how much does everyone think Lore might be involved in some of this somehow? I know, it's all early speculation at this point, but if I had to guess, Maddox used HIM for his experiments, and Lore using his "children", set Mars on fire.

Which, Mars being on fire. Interesting development.
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John Harmon
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 2:09am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Jammer thank you for continuing to maintain this site and your reviews. I don’t know what your job is or what has your schedule ever hectic, but thank you for making the reviews happen. Honestly it wouldn’t be Star Trek without a Jammer review to go with it.
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Ian
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 1:28am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Just watched ""Remembrance" and I generally liked what I saw. This was very much a set-up episode as there are still other characters we have yet to meet. It's just a kick to see Picard again but kind of sad to see out of Starfleet, "waiting to die" as he put it.

Just a few quick thoughts:

1) Wonderful to see the Enterprise D again, if only briefly and in a dream.
2) The opening credits and theme music were disappointing. I wasn't expecting the Jerry Goldsmith theme but it's nothing memorable. I was hoping for something that would stand out and that would bridge the gap between the TNG and this series.
3) Loved seeing Data again. He looks a lot better but there's only so much you can do with CGI. Brent Spiner is 70 years old. Besides, its Picard having a dream about someone he hasn't seen in years so does it really matter how Data appears now?
4)Maybe I'm missing something here but why wouldn't Starfleet and/or the Federation want to help the Romulans? What better way to help end decades of conflict and distrust? Maybe this will be explained later but what happened to the alliance between the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans at the end of the Dominion War?
5)Picard didn't bother to ask Dahj what her name was until hours later after sunset?
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Reece Zimm
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 1:11am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Just great!
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Leif
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 12:53am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Where was Seven of Nine? Was anyone else disappointed she wasnt in this?
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AntonioE
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 12:34am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Impressive so far. Patrick Stewart is every bit the magnanimous actor he is always been. That interview scene gave me goosebumps and it was all because of Patrick Stewart’s wonderful, utterly convincing performance. Unfortunately this episode is not much to go off of since I know we have not been introduced to the other half of the main cast of characters. But so far it is looking promising. The writing is better so far than Discovery. The main titles and Jeff Russo’s main theme is certainly interesting and gets the job done but is a little too simplistic and around the middle of the credits sequence I felt very bored, Wondering if anything was going to happen. It was a strange feeling to feel during a credits sequence. Otherwise the music was fine.

The story is intriguing so far they. They have kept just enough hidden to keep me interested. So far the show is the very definition of slow burn but if that slow burn pays off that then I am in it for the long-haul. Overall, this was a very good episode and it is wonderful to see Captain Picard again.
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Nolan
Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 12:21am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@John Harmon

Yeah, say what you will about "Faith of the Heart/Where My Heart Will Take Me," but you know after binging six episodes at some point that song'll start spilling out. Don't think I could hum the Picard theme. And I don't think there's going to be any bloopers of the cast breaking out in a rendition of their theme after a particularily dramatic line reading either... "Dahhh, dadada, dadada da da..."
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