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R.
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 6:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

I think the writers of this new generation of Trek threw out any adherence to the established narrative history of the setting (ignoring the dreaded 'c' word for now) when (a) Vulcan got sucked into a black hole, (b) Cadet Kirk got promoted to captain of the Federation flagship in the same movie or (c) introducing a war with with Klingons in the 2250s that apparently decimated the Federation and Starfleet yet is never mentioned even once in all the chronologically antecedent material set in that same universe and timeline. Consistency has been shortchanged in favour of action.

I for one am thankful that Kirsten Beyer seems to be reining in this crop of writers somewhat. If I remember her 'Voyager' relaunch novels correctly, she's extremely good at making narrative sense of otherwise meaningless or unintelligible ideas from the show's original run. Even the spatial distortion phenomenon from that godawful episode 'Twisted' or the glowy space ruins that Kes's boyfriend shows her in 'Darkling'. The woman deserves a lot of credit.

@Jaxon

Word of God is that Worf will look like his TNG self despite this show being in the same timeline as 'Discovery'. How they'll explain that one is anyone's guess.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 4:36pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Keith

I'm glad you gave Ms Beyer a mention. She's the one who forced the writers to go to canon camp.
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Fenn
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 4:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: It's Only a Paper Moon

Have spent most of today collapsed on a sofa with my partner after a long flight, binging DS9 together -- this was as far as we got, and man, was it a hell of an episode to reach.

Busy few days, but I'll definitely be writing up something substantial at some point: my partner (who knows of my habit of writing up thousands of words about things) has practically *commanded* me to write an essay on this one. It's been a definite favourite for both of us.

For now: I just wanna say that my partner is big on war stories, has seen a *lot* of stories about war and old soldiers in his time... and he says this episode is one of the very best depictions of PTSD he's ever seen. And that's saying somethin'.

God damn, Nog. Kid's had a hell of a life.
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Helmus
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 3:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Thank you Jammer for your review and thank you for maintaining this site. I love reading the discussions about the new Picard series. It feels for me that Star Trek is alive again.

The first episode of the Picard series was very enjoyable. I still can't believe we have Picard back and finally post Nemesis Star Trek. A few things, as already started before, could have been better. The music was a bit too much, the pace a bit too fast. But in the end, this is modern Trek. I'll get used to it.

This is a series I really hope and really want to be good. We'll see how it evolves.
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Circus Man
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 2:39pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

The value-based version of canon (also in the broader sense of "literary canon") always seemed to me a bit different. After all, we treat a Star Trek episode like "Spock's Brain" or "Shades of Gray" as canon... any Star Trek product that bears the stamp of "canonicity" no matter how artistically worthless, while -- with select exceptions -- no novel (say, The Final Reflection) or fan film (World Enough and Time) gets to be canon, no matter how good or even influential they prove to be. In other words, I don't think canonical status should be thought of as some sort of blue ribbon. It's a descriptive term for establishing its status relative to officialdom.
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Aurelius
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 2:29pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Didn't someone say in the show that there were two duplicate paintings, and Data gave Picard one of them?
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Gerontius
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 1:55pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

The term"canon" in this sense gets a wider use than in the context of religion. It gets used of the writings of authors and poets as well - and not merely about whether or not a piece was written by the person, but often restricted to the work they felt of value. So a writer might wish to exclude juveilia, or hackwork.

WithStar Trek its morecoplicate, basecause of all the different writers involved, in a range of media. It wouldn't be righttojust seeit as a matter of who happens townthe franchise at anytime , which could change overnight, after all. It has to be seen as meaning a kind of consensus between the creators and the fans. But consensus isn't just a matter of individual preferance.
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Geekgarious
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 1:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

The concept of a canon in a fictional universe serves only to allow corporate entities to say certain stories are more important than others. The concept of canonicity began as a joke, but has become a corporate canard of immense power over the last 20 years, due largely to George Lucas and his endless and endlessly stupid revisionism. Prior to the special additions, hell, prior to the prequels, nobody cared about what was or wasn’t canon. More on the canonicity canard here.

https://www.themarysue.com/star-wars-expanded-universe-canon/
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Keith DeCandido
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 1:39pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

FYI, there's a credit missing from the writer list: Kirsten Beyer, a Trek novelist, who is very much a driving force behind this show, even though she's not as famous as the male names in the writing credits......
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Circus Man
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 12:26pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Quite the opposite: regardless of their religious origin, these terms are founded in the vagaries of corporate ownership. Reject what you like, but the language of "canon" does not apply, and is in danger of becoming meaningless the moment you make it mean "thing I like." To quote myself, "We do not have to accept their authority, but as soon as we reject it, we're not talking about canon any more."

To further this metaphor, if creator/owner says "X is canon," if your reaction is "I don't like X," you have the ability to not watch X or not watch the entire show if you feel like it. But creator/owner can produce more operating under the premise of "X is canon" and your decisions don't affect that directly.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 12:15pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@Yanks, Circus Man

You're hinging so much on the word "canon" that it's a bit frightening. Is this a Star Trek forum, or a forum for religious zealots?

May I remind you that Star Trek is a work of fiction? Regardless of how central Trek is to our lives, it is still a work of fiction. People are free to accept or reject whatever parts they want from a work of fiction. There is no cosmic rule that says you have to accept everything or reject everything. Sure, TPTB decide what's "canon", but what we personally decide to do with that is our choice.

And I'm not willing to accept the world depicted in ST:Picard as the future of the world from TNG/DS9. I, personally, find the notion of accepting this to be an anti-thesis of what Star Trek means to me.

That's my personal choice. You're free to choose otherwise, but your personal choice does not oblige anyone else but yourself.
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Chrome
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 11:48am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Be careful what you wish for.
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Ian
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 11:38am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Quite a few people have mentioned DS9 and have expressed hope that we'll see some DS9 characters at some point. Count me in. I hope "Picard" will figure out a sensible way for us to perhaps visit DS9 or least get some update on the DS9 side of things. What's going on now between the Federation and the Dominon, if anything? What happened with the alliance the Federation had with the Romulans during the war with the Dominion? Would love to see Garak again.
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Top Hat
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 10:27am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S6: Aquiel

Borrowing from Phil Farrand, I always laugh at the fact that Troi speaks only one word this episode: "Concerned?"
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Gerontius
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 10:19am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

It seems likely that the question of how whoever put together the two Data girls got to see the picture is likely to be seen as a big puzzle.

If that's Maddox a simple explanation would be that Data, being in touch with him after the trial, and helping him in his work (once the little business about taking Data to bits had been dealt with) had scanned the painting and sent him a copy. Perhaps the girls are the joint effort of Data working with Data, and trying to avoid the glitch that messed up things with Lal.

It'd be nice to have Data as having been actually involved in some way in creating his "daughters".
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Jaxon
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 10:14am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

"I'd love to see Kira and Bashir in season 2, as well as obviously Worf"

If it means Worf has to be one of those monsters they're trying to call Klingons now, I'd prefer they not bother.
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Circus Man
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 10:00am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

To build on Yanks point, I think that the term "canon" is used so loosely these days as to lose descriptive usefulness. Canon means officialdom; it's ultimately an institutional term. It means those things legitimized by the Word of God, and this is slightly more than a pure metaphor, since the very term references matters of the sacred. The Catholic Church claims among its powers the ability to degree which books of the Bible are canon, are of divine origins and which are not (Apocrypha, Deutercanon, Pseudepigrapha, etc.). Now obviously every other denomination claims these powers too and sometimes have slightly different versions of the Bible, and any individual reader of the Bible has the ability to declare "I think this part is real and this part isn't"... but in so doing, they are hypothetically going against canon. A book like "Bel and the Dragon" obviously does exist — you can go and read it. The question isn't whether or not it exists, but whether or not it contains that mysterious touch of God that gives it the status of canon. The parts where Star Trek canon is nebulous or unclear are roughly equivalent to those moments when the Bible contradicts itself; points for discussion and debate, certainly, but even engaging in this debate theoretically accepts that there is such a thing as canon and that it's worth talking about. Just as the Catholic Church claims for itself the powers to say "this is real and this is not," the people running Star Trek (or whatever eklse) do the same. We do not have to accept their authority, but as soon as we reject it, we're not talking about canon any more. Fans have a place in this canonization process (I gather that a fan poll helped (re-) canonize TAS), but it's not an all-determining one, it's one of influence and the ability to assert pressure through ones choices of consumption, etc. Saying "I don't like this" is not the same thing as saying "this is not canonical"; saying "I don't want to think about this" is not the same thing as saying "this is not canonical."
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Chrome
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 9:58am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S4: Prey

There’s a difference between a character having flaws and being consistently written. In “Frasier”, the character Roz is constantly chasing sex over commitment. It’s a character flaw, but it’s a consistent one and we learn to respect Roz despite the flaw. Janeway’s flaw is that she’ll follow the Prime Directive only to service the plot. We don’t know from one episode to another which way she’ll lean on the Prime Directive, because it depends on the author that week. That’s a writing flaw.
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Eric
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 9:52am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Concerning the Romulan spitting acid. If you look carefully, you see that he bites on a capsule of something before spitting it out. So Romulans have not started to spit out acid, he simply bit on a capsule of acid and then spit it out a her.
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KL
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 9:13am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S4: Prey

In retrospect, I am glad we had Janeway in the way she was written. Like all of us, she was flawed: she can be inconsistent, she let her emotion get the better of her, at times she displayed incredible pettiness and vengefulness.... sometimes you’ll hate her. Hence I found her character more interesting and realistic than all the Mary Sue types that inundated TV and movies nowadays.
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Yanks
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 8:37am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

@ OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

"@Yanks
"You don't have a choice, it is canon."

Of-course I have a choice. We all do. As intelligent consumers of entertainment, it is up to us to decide what we accept and we don't."

You have a choice to watch and to like or dislike trek, but you do not determine what is and isn't canon. Neither do I.

"Anyway, since nearly everybody here seems to be thrilled with new direction that Trek has taken, I'm not going to ruin your party. Enjoy."

I certainly will.
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KL
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 8:35am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

Wow. So many SJWs judging this episode with absolutely no context in the time it was made and all
snowflakes over Andy’s Friend comments and observations. The fact that this episode even made it to the screen is a testament of the risk it took. Then again I am not surprised. You Social Justice Warriors routinely rewrite and revise history so you can pretend that you are some sort of social pioneers when it all has been done and accomplished and by better people.
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Trent
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 8:11am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

MidShipManNorris said: "Dahj resembles Lal quite a bit, and has a name from Hindi, I think... (Googles)... Turns out it's closest known relative, "Dahej," in Sanskrit is "dowry." A dowry is a very old practice where the bride's father or guardian makes a payment to the groom for him to marry the daughter (as marrying a man's daughter was seen as doing them a favor at certain times in human history, since the father would no longer have to care for/feed her). Dahj also actually uses the word "OFFSPRING." I caught that."

Yes, and those who remember the TNG Episode "Offspring" will remember that the episode states that Data chose the name of his daughter, Lal, because it's the Hindi word meaning "beloved".


Booming said: "I will wait for answers but that daughter painting thing feels like retconning."

The painting doesn't appear in TNG, but the TNG episode "Offspring" has Data discussing painting with his daughter, placing her DNA into him, she has hair similar to Dahj, and we know Data paints often.

Booming said: "There is no connection between the contrived "There have to be two" reasons and Lore and Data."

The "robots come as twins" thing probably started in TOS. We had four set of android twins in "I Mudd". And in TNG, of studying androids, Data says "in any meaningful evaluation, you would require another model for a basis of comparison" implying that you'd somehow need two of the same machine when studying their behavioral evolution.

I doubt the writers remember all of this, though.
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Booming
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 7:41am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

That is not a good point. Lore was build before Data and Data was build differently than Lore (with emotions optional) for obvious reasons. There is no connection between the contrived "There have to be two" reasons and Lore and Data.

Plus they both are not that similar to Data because they both had emotions from the start.
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Gerontius
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 7:33am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

I can't really see that as an error, John - I know myself that Most of the time my dreams have completely slipped beyond recall by the time I have properly woken up. I'd be likely to say that I don't recall them - and yet every now and then something does come through, and occasionally I'll have quite a clear memory of a vivid dream, or a run of dreams.

I think that pattern is a pretty typical pattern many people have - as Crusher implies there. I believe there are techniques for improving dream memories some people go in for.
...
I think it would be a mistake for them to fake a way of bringing back Dhaj. I think we'll have to make do with her twin sister. The idea of androids having to come as twins seemed a bit phoney and arbitrary at first, just there to provide a way of allowig them to kill off a character for shock effect without actually losing them - but someone made a good point in picking up the established precedent with Data and Lore. I hope sister doesn't turn out to be a nasty... I also hope she'll be able to reveal something of Data's most attractive quality, his naivety and innocence, and also perhaps his tending to take things literally. That last is a characteristic you actually get with real people from time to time on the autistic spectrum - as with one character in Discovery.
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