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Jamie Mann
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 2:59pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship


That's fair - I hope I'm managing a balance between being a Grumpy Old Git and providing reasoned explanations for my opinions!
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 2:32pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

@William B

I said TREK series. ;-)
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Man, don’t leave the “eh, petulant” out of my quote, Omicron! Eek, looks like I’m the goon who said there was that many seasons.

That’s what I thought, Chrome. That UPN just didn’t have enough viewers to begin with. Since a new network and all.

True about the polls potentially being skewed, Top Hat. I mean, I’d have fun voting.

But I see it the same as DS9 being skewed to all the internet posting fans liking that Trek the best. So in the end I say watch what you like and still support our aged series the best you can.
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William B
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:38pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Discovery and Picard have zero negative season seven reviews, either.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:25pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: One Little Ship

What is this, The Magic Schoolbus? "Shrink down and go for an adventure inside someone's body", except replace "someone" with "The Defiant"? Complete with Miles Frizzle telling us what all the bits and bobs are.

I was giggling the whole time. The Rubicon booping the door panel is the cutest. No doubt this helped toy sales...!
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Top Hat
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

Well, there is the odd reference to something like the Dytallix Mining Corporation and there are clearly still profit-driven humans like Vash and Mudd. TAS had a rich philanthropist, Carter Winston, which definitely implies that personal wealth is still a thing. But maybe these are sort of traces of the prior social-economic order rather than the norm. The general idea, in TNG-era Trek at least, is that the buy-in for being part of society is to work for its betterment rather than yours alone.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:13pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

"Season 7 of Enterprise?"

Well, Enterprise is the only post-TOS Trek series with zero negative reviews for its 7th season. ;-)
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:12pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

I always thought that most people in some way or another work for the Federation. As far as I understand it the Federation provides you with the stuff you need like replicators. Also Picard mentions that there is no more money and you definitely don't get payed working for the Feds. I agree to a certain degree about the post scarcity argument I just wanted to point out that it looks more like communism than capitalism.

@ Top hat
There is no private enterprise. At least not in the sense that people have big companies. Sure Sisko's dad has a restaurant and Picard has his vinyard but does he own that and who gets it when Picard dies? Who repairs his stuff or provides him with machines? That is all done by the Federation.
At least that is how I understood it.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

@Jamie Mann
"It is mildly worrying, how easy it is to get sucked into writing about this stuff ;) "

Neah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The problem begins when the person cares more about alleviating his boredom then about making sense or having an honest discussion. When things reach *that* level, I begin to worry.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:01pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

Yeah, I have a few rough days (actually weeks) behind me and still a few in front of me so this was a welcome diversion.

Live long and prosper!
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 11:29am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: If Wishes Were Horses

I remember this one as silly, and too immediately thought of TNG "Where No One Has Gone Before". Which - thinking back on it - begs the obvious question - why the $#%@ didn't O'Brien mention exactly that episode when he was aboard the Enterprise as "something strange like this happened on the Enterprise (you know, back at the beginning when we encountered a new spatial anomaly every month or so.)"

Another episode they could have hooked it up to was "Allegiance" - perhaps making "Bokai" be one of the same aliens who showed up. (Or probably a different one of the same species. I assume the one/two in Allegiance learned their lesson)

Or both - the "Allegiance" aliens could be from the what/where/when-ever from "Where No One Has Gone Before".
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Jamie Mann
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 11:24am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

To be fair, I was fairly bored, too ;)

Still, tis probably time to draw a line under this overly obsessive analysis!
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 11:14am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

I believe DS9 was a lead in to TNG as part of the syndication deal, so there’s an argument that can be made that VOY was at a disadvantage by itself on UPN. Of course, TNG/DS9 only lasted 1.5 seasons together and I believe Paramount spent a small fortune promoting Voyager as the flagship show to its new network, so that might be a wash.

Not surprised VOY ranked better than TOS on a poll in 2013, though. I don’t think TOS gets enough love by newer fans.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 10:43am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Business as Usual

I really like Steve Berkoff, he was awesome in Octopussy, one of my favourite Bond movies!
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 9:36am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: The Quickening

My partner's been tearing through DS9 over the past week or so -- he's skipped an episode or few, mostly the Ferengi ones, but he's still watching the vast majority of 'em. I have no idea how he's almost finished season 4 already. (Probably because he doesn't spend half his DS9 time writing up comments on this site.) At this rate, we'll be watching the finale together...!

He's been enjoying it, but with a big caveat: so far, he's absolutely *hated* Bashir. He wrote up a half-serious half-joking character ranking list (with Odo at the top) that had Bashir right at the bottom underneath "unnamed background extra #214". He has been thoroughly irritated by his chatter and his status as Series' Designated Horndog, and has said in no uncertain terms: "hey fenn if bashir and dax get together at some point, it's in your best interest not to tell me, because I will drop this series like a brick".* **

Anyway, when I heard he had 'The Quickening' coming up next, I made a bet with him that he would like Bashir in this episode. The bet's stake is... one steak, bought for me if he ended up liking Bashir and bought for him if he didn't.

One episode later... he owes me a steak. Only "a very mild steak", but hey -- I won the bet, and he's developed a very mild liking for Bashir now. Win/win.

In the process of posting about this, I've come to realise I never actually left a comment on my runthrough, so let me just say I really love this one. Bashir is at his finest when dedicated to healing, no matter how difficult it may be. His dynamic with Dax is a lot better now -- the awkward pickup attempt phase has ended, letting them settle into something comfortably platonic. I love how the two complement each other here, with Dax as the "worldly" one translating for Bashir off in his own little medical motormouth world. She gives him the push he needs to go from being self-absorbed to being truly selfless -- staying on the planet, no matter what, until the cure is found.

I'm with Jammer on loving the episode's final shot. I remember watching that, expecting Bashir to wade into the crowd and the adulation... but no, he watches, happy for the long-awaited vaccine to take up all the attention instead of himself. As it should be.

Also his teddy bear story is sweet as hell. Nominating Kukalaka for best character in the Star Trek franchise.

* He added a caveat to his "Dax + Bashir = drop the series" ultimatum halfway through watching 'The Wire': he said he'd drop the series not because he hates Bashir, but because him being with Dax would mean Bashir's not being true to himself. Because he belongs with Garak instead. Clearly.

** SPOILERS I'm aware that spoilers spoilers Dax spoilers Bashir spoilers spoilers season 7... though definitely not in the way he'd imagined it. Neither of us have reached that point yet, though.
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Top Hat
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 9:01am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

I almost get the sense that "working directly for the state" and "existing in society" have thin distinction in Star Trek, which is pretty socialist. It can't quite be communist in Marx's strict sense since there are still leaders, private enterprise, personal property, inheritance rights, etc.

But yeah, they zigzag like crazy on a lot of this. Take this exchange in "The Cloud" about Paris's experience in non-holographic France:

PARIS: I found this place just after my pocket was picked walking by the harbour.
KIM: Somebody picked your pocket? On Earth?
PARIS: Oh, they just do it for tourists. They give it back. Most of the time.

Pocket picked of what?
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Jason R.
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 8:47am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

"Well, it is certainly closer to an (ideal) communist society than a capitalistic one. The state provides every basic need(food, health care, living space, free education) and also controls the means of production, no money, most people work for the state.
Sounds pretty communistic to me."

Well except there's no evidence that anyone works for the state except maybe in Starfleet and in a few other instances.

Incidentally, I agree with Omicron that a true post-scarcity society renders ideologies like communism and capitalism obsolete. If a replicator can manufacture anything from food to tools and machines (including other replicators!) the state can't (and doesn't) control the means of production - pretty much everyone does.

Not suggesting that individuals are making everything themselves but then again, we have to infer from some episodes that money isn't completely gone either.
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Top Hat
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 8:40am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

Yikes, I sort of helped trigger this exchange and now I can't bring myself to do more than skim it. It sure would have helped if the writers had supplied a better reason for Sisko to be on a runabout deep in the Gamma Quadrant than that he's leading a quantity surveying mission, right?
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Jamie Mann
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 8:17am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

> NO! You still ignored my contractor argument. Again if I might add...
Contractors? I saw your comment but figured I'd typed enough for one night…

It's certainly a possible solution, though Worf's comments strongly suggested that this would be a purely Federation endeavour.

Anyhow, let's go wibbly wobbly timey wimey back to the cold war, and look at trade between the USA and USSR. There was always some degree of trade between the two, both legitimate (Vodka, oil) and black market (Levi jeans, cigarettes, etc). But anything with military applications (e.g. technology, uranium) was strictly verboten and both sides came down hard on anyone they caught.

It's fairly safe to assume that whatever unobtanium Star Fleet was looking for was for military use. And this is the Dominion we're talking about: if you're caught doing something they don't like, the default response is to kill you, find and kill your family and then track down your home planet to drop a dinosaur killer on it and release a tailored virus to torture the survivors for generations to come. As a warning to others, because they're nice like that.

Is there really going to be anyone willing to challenge the Dominion that way? It's unlikely that anyone from the Gamma quadrant would take the risk, and anyone from the Alpha quadrant would have to weigh up the risks of being destroyed or (at best) trapped in the Gamma quadrant if the war kicks off and/or the wormhole is destroyed.

> You do realize that the USA does all that towards their allies, the Europeans. It is kind of a joke in Europe. For example the US embassy in Berlin has huge spy stuff on it's roof

It’s all part of the Great Game (which nearly destroyed Europe when it helped to trigger WW1, but I digress). And I had much fun wandering around Teufelsberg last year, and hearing the reason why Berlin had a ferris wheel for so long ;)

But this is where Star Trek takes the “political dominance” struggle of the Cold War and amps it up. The Dominion isn’t interested in any form of co-existence: you toe their party line or they destroy you. As highlighted a few episodes earlier on with the plot to have the Klingons and Federation destroy each other, and as again highlighted just a few episodes later with the attempted sun-buster trick.

The closest analogy is perhaps the very loosely proxied Korean and Vietnam wars, but with one side actively prepared to use nukes. Which thankfully, the USA and USSR always pulled back from.

> You can mine your own territory as much as you want. There are numerous states who use minefields who are not planing to go to war or are at war.

I’m struggling to think of any scenarios where you’d use a landmine without wanting to go to war or prevent an invasion (which arguably is also a war, albeit more one-sided). After all, a mine has one single purpose: it kills. And before you bring up the DMZ between North and South Korea, that definitely falls into the latter category: they’re still technically at war and NK often fires shells over the border and has attempted invasion several times. I’ve wandered through the tunnels they were going to use to bring their troops and tanks through!

(there’s also the horror of the mines left over in places like DRC and Vietnam; it’s more than a bit of a shame that the Korean DMZ is the main reason the USA refuses to condemn and ban them…)

> And about the drug thing. You do realize that you basically cannot be an US air force pilot on an aircraft carrier if you refuse to take drugs. *cough* Dexedrine *cough*

There’s a bit of a difference between soldiers taking amphetamines, and force-bred, pre-programmed shock troopers who die if their magic chems are withdrawn. Hopefully, we’ll never go any further towards the latter in the real world!

> They only know that they are 3 weeks away from the nearest Dominion outpost

No, they know that they’re 3 weeks away from the nearest *known* Dominion outpost. And TBH, the more I think about that, the less sense it makes. How can they be a week away from the wormhole /and/ three weeks away from the Dominion? I don’t think we ever get a clear statement as to how far the Dominion is away from the wormhole, but this suggests two main possibilities:
1) The planet is in the opposite direction to the Dominion (i.e. the Dominion is two weeks away from the wormhole)
2) The planet is en route to the Dominion (i.e the Dominion is four weeks away from the wormhole)

1) seems more likely, but that’d mean it’d be even easier for the Dominion to intercept any traffic, as they could just amble over whenever they receive notification that the wormhole has opened, and arrive at the wormhole just in time for the Federation ships to return from their two-week round trip, all slow, laden with heavy ores and easy targets.

> "Certainly, it would have been sensible to prepare for the potential arrival of the Jem Hadar as best as possible - and to put as much resource as possible into studying the ship"
> That is what they did until the other ship arrived.

No, they faffed around burying the bodies - something which is not part of Jem Hadar culture and (from a military point of view) a huge waste of potential research material. I’d hope they at least stored some samples on the runabo… oh wait, it was destroyed ;)

> would imply that it could... be many things. What it means is that it is not a standard attack ship.
Suffice to say that if something is different, then it’s potentially more valuable to it’s owners. Or it could just be a garbage scow. Either way, the sensible risk assessment would be to assume that it’s more valuable, and that the owners are more likely to want it back.

(Fundamentally, the whole idea of the dominion letting the Federation take the ship is a bit ridiculous - from the Enigma machine to the A-bomb and the space race, in an era of industrial (cold) war, having a technological edge and/or limiting enemy knowledge of your capabilities is absolutely key)

> The Dominion ships can still not fly faster than warp 9.9. and logic dictates that three weeks away means at maximum speed because if it doesn't than why use a measurement of time not distance. In universe the writers wanted to indicate: "A ship would need three weeks from the nearest Dominion outpost."

Like I said above, the more I think about the “three weeks” thing, the less sense it makes - and not just geographically. Over on Memory Alpha, it suggests that standard Jem Hadar ships cruise at warp 7 - or approx. 656c, according to the Oukda warp scale. Runabouts travel at warp 5, or 213c. And the Enterprise and Discovery top out at warp 9.975, or approx. 2100c.

(Then too, it’s pretty canon that ships can’t travel at maximum warp for extended periods, due to the stress it places on the ship’s systems…)

So, which are we talking about?

Warp 5? That 3 week journey would only take a Jem Hadar ship 1 week, or just over half a day for the Enterprise
Warp 7? That 3 week journey would only take the Enterprise 1 week, or about ten weeks for the runabout
Warp 9.975? That 3 week journey would take a Jem Hadar ship about ten weeks - or /thirty/ weeks for a runabout

The most likely - and sensible - explanation that it was based on warp 7. But that then means a high-warp capable ship would be able to arrive in a matter of hours.

Worse, the week it’d take for the runabout to return to the wormhole at warp 5 can be done in about 2 days at warp 7, or just a few hours at warp 9.975. And why would the Defiant also take a week to get to the planet? Surely they won’t just amble over at warp 5?

To be fair, in the end it’s just a stupid throwaway line which is meant to help justify Sisco’s decision. It’s just /incredibly/ stupid, given the exponential nature of warp speed.

> Again, they only appear so quickly because it is important but it could have just been some random troop transporter.
A cursory inspection of the ship would indicate this, and if it was just a troop transporter, the benefits of salvaging it would be reduced. And this should also be factored in the risk assessment.

> " If not, then at least you've gotten something useful out of it and there's little risk of the entire team being wiped out."
> I thought that the shuttle gets destroyed shortly after they arrive at the ship.
No, it gets destroyed after the team had time to inform DS9 of what was going on and request the Defiant after their attempts to tow the ship with the runabout’s tractor beam failed. They also had time to recover and bury all the bodies they’d found. Faff, faff, faff...

> Yes but the Defiant is a week away. Dominion three weeks. Plus they only know that the Defiant is heading for the Gamma Quadrant not where they are going. Plus the Defiant has cloak.

As per above, the timings are all whacky, unless all ships travel at the same speed all the time. And the Defiant may be able to cloak on the way there, but I’m fairly sure there’s no technobabble to allow them to cloak while towing a ship. And if the ship was able to move under its own power, it would be uncloaked/detectable, and the Defiant would have to decloak to defend it.

> It is save to assume that only a very small part is monitored. I think they also mention that the Dominion didn't get near the wormhole for quite some time.

It’s equally safe to assume that in a “cold war” scenario, the Dominion would be very closely monitoring all traffic around the wormhole - especially if (as you suggested) they have superior sensor technology which lets them monitor from beyond the range of Federation sensors.

Equally, given that individual Jem Hadar soldiers can cloak, it’s pretty safe to assume that the Dominion have the ability to cloak ships and satellites - they just choose not to, though it’s debatable whether this is because Jem Hadar ships are mass produced on the cheap, or if it’s a deliberate statement of strength. Certainly, they’d already developed cloaking countermeasures before the Defiant first poked its nose into the wormhole.

And as we find out just a few episodes later, the Dominion has a POW camp close to the wormhole, and has a large fleet of Jem Hadar ships hiding in a plasma cloud, also very close to the wormhole.

But it’s fine - after all, everyone knows the nearest outpost is three weeks away from the planet in this episode, which itself is just a week away from the wormhole!

What’s that? Is it the sound of dramatic convenience whooshing past? ;)

> "You can perhaps argue that the crew had already volunteered for a high risk mission, given that they were in the Gamma quadrant in an essentially unprotected ship, but then we get back to just how ridiculous this entire scenario is..."
There are many mission in Star Trek that turn out high risk even though at first they seemed fairly low risk.

To be honest, it’s amazing how many things go wrong in Star Trek - from teleporters to warp engines, holosuites and beyond. It’s almost as everything happens for dramatic purposes… ;)

Any which way, sending a lightly armed ship only capable of warp 5 into a region where it may encounter heavily armed ships capable of warp 7 seems a tad… stupid. Putting half the command crew of DS9 onto said ship is doubly stupid!

Almost as if there wasn't any attempt at a risk assessment...

> OMG an hour. I actually have stuff to do.
This has been fun. :)

It is mildly worrying, how easy it is to get sucked into writing about this stuff ;)
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Top Hat
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 7:57am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Interesting! The poll question "Which series have you watched the most?" inherently disadvantages series with shorter runs. It perhaps goes without saying that this is at best "infotainment" rather than anything empirical. At best it would seem to indicate that regular browsers of skew towards Voyager fans... or perhaps that people who elect to participate in such polls skew Voyager. It's not a ton to hang one's hat on, but it's at least interesting.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 7:24am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Season 7 of Enterprise, eh, petulant?

That is one Trek I never tried, but even I know it only goes to season 4. Someone is a funny man.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 7:15am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Okay, okay, here's the poll link:

Sure, only a group of 25,000 people asked, but it has to have some weight. Came up as first search result in my "most watched Star Trek poll" Google find.

And the Netflix results:

But you can get links to those stats just by doing any "most watched Star Trek" and "Netflix" search. That was just one link that loaded the quickest.

Although, I'm not saying that millions are wrong. I know DS9 features all all these Trek sites. But I'm just saying what I liked, what I've tried to watch, and what my favourite is out of them all. Nice to have found links to support that.
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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 7:13am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

I see that Booming is bored and frustrated again.

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Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 7:09am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

I read a poll where Enterprise beat every other show on television. It also had the highest rated season 7 on YouTube somewhere. These sources are indisputable facts!
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Top Hat
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 6:32am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

Voyager was the highest rated show on UPN, which is a tad like being the thinnest kid at fat camp. It meant that it kept getting resources and advertising, but a rising tide floats all boats, and UPN was anything but.

I'm curious what poll you mean -- among general viewers? It does seem generally true that Voyager had more visibility. That does not innately translate to people watching it regularly, much less liking it.

If you like Voyager, that's great. But I'm afraid I've never found the "millions of viewers can't be wrong" argument a pretty meaningful one, about anything.
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