Star Trek: The Next Generation
"Up the Long Ladder"
Air date: 5/22/1989
Written by Melinda M. Snodgrass
Directed by Winrich Kolbe
Review by Jamahl Epsicokhan
"Sometimes you just have to bow to the absurd," says Picard. Not me. Not for this episode. Here lies a colossal mess of a show, mixing serious (albeit unrealized) science fiction with broad, less-than-funny comedy. The Enterprise comes to the rescue of two long-lost Earth colonies from a single ship that was launched in the early 22nd century. One colony lives on a planet as anachronistic farmers with no technology; the other lives on another planet completely reliant on technology, with cloning having replaced sexual reproduction (which they now find "repugnant").
Let's start with the need to make the primitive colony into broad Irish caricatures: What was the point? It's supposed to be funny, but it ends up providing nothing but annoying stereotypes. The community leader, Danilo O'Dell (Barrie Ingham), is purely a grotesquery of himself. His daughter, Brenna (Rosalyn Landor), is immediately a target and conquest for Riker, for reasons completely unknown to the plot and the characters. Why do they hook up? Okay, it provides a reason for Brenna to start taking off her clothes (which I suppose was fun for me at age 13 when this show originally aired), but that's about it. Some of the Worf Ultimate Straight Man humor works to a degree ("Then you would suffocate and die"), as well as his honor-bonding with Pulaski near the beginning.
At about the midway point the episode pulls a 180 by following the serious story of the modern colony and its cloning procedures. They need a new infusion of DNA to survive and want the Enterprise crew members to volunteer. This leads to some interesting ideas about the nature of individuality amid cloning, and one particularly attention-getting scene where Riker destroys two developing clones of himself and Pulaski that were obtained illegally; in the right writer's hands, this could've been a provocative rape-victim/abortion allegory. As it is, the whole storyline is underdeveloped.
The solution proposed at the end is hammered together as an exercise in convenient TNG ultra-simplicity. Because the hour is over, the problem must be solved using the available variables at hand, with no parts left over.
Previous episode: Samaritan Snare
Next episode: Manhunt
70 comments on this review
Tue, Apr 2, 2013, 4:20pm (UTC -5)
That's not a bad idea for an allegory, but of course the execution is bad for all the reasons Jammer listed. It's going to be especially hard to sell the solution here as being equitable. There's no reason the farming community can't survive on its own on a planet that isn't about to be destroyed by a solar flare. Given the pro-choice message of the attention-getting kill-the-clones scene, there needs to be a lot more effort to sell us on the idea that people from both societies are genuinely willing to enter into polygamous sexual relationships which *no one* particularly seems to want.
Also particularly funny: Worf's fainting on the bridge as the teaser break! They really needed to stretch to come up with ways to make this episode seem exciting. The Worf/Pulaski material after his fainting *is* quite good, though. I'm going to miss Pulaski when s2 ends.
I'm tempted to give it 2 stars because I see what they were trying to go for, but 1.5 is probably fair given how much of a mess the final product becomes.
Fri, Apr 5, 2013, 7:23pm (UTC -5)
What a mess. Half funny, half serious, all S2 bad.
Sat, Apr 6, 2013, 1:14am (UTC -5)
The episode does feel very much to me like the episode is a first draft that needed a rewrite. Maybe there is no good second draft that could possibly come out of this first draft, though. Perhaps a portrayal of the techless farming community closer to DS9's "Paradise" might have worked.
Mon, Apr 8, 2013, 3:04pm (UTC -5)
Given that this rips out the only way the episode even *could* function, I think the episode is even worse. 1 star, ultimately -- and that is for the few moments that do work in the clone half. (I guess I could say generously that the clone half gets a low 2 stars for some interesting moments but unsatisfying resolution and follow-through, and the Irish stereotype material is somewhere around 0.5 stars, so that the average is 1.25 which gets rounded down.)
Tue, Apr 9, 2013, 12:41pm (UTC -5)
Talking about drafts, this script should've spent more time in the oven, for sure. I feel like they had two half-baked ideas, each one feasible to be expanded into their own standalone episodes: One pseudo-comedy ep about the "Irish" people, as bad as that'd have been; and another episode in full serious mode with the hyper-tech clone society. Maybe that last one had the chance to be about something interesting.
Alas, that never happened. What we got was a mix of two lacking premises with the subtlety of a moving train.
Tue, Apr 9, 2013, 4:18pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Oct 4, 2013, 5:57pm (UTC -5)
I like Picard finally cracking up in the cargo bay.
You'd have to.
Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 11:43am (UTC -5)
Riker's volatile response to the cloning society's request was hardly becoming of an officer in his position. I also think Picard was presumptuous to claim that his attitude would be prevalent among the other crew-members as I for one would be happy to provide genetic material in such a situation (but I accept that it would be inappropriate for Picard to allow such a request to be made - if he had said 'I cannot allow you to take genetic material from my crew, starfleet regulations blah blah blah...' then I would have been happy).
The kill-the-clones scene horrified me, especially with the lack of any protest from Pulaski.
Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 12:18pm (UTC -5)
Also, in the vein of "what Rick Berman did to Trek by firing Ron Jones", here's the link to the original (as I understand it, unaired) music for the above-mentioned tea scene -- www.youtube.com/watch?v=iipDf1XkWXs
Fri, Jan 31, 2014, 5:56am (UTC -5)
Fri, Jan 31, 2014, 7:24am (UTC -5)
And yes, early TNG music was leagues ahead of the late-season sonic wallpaper Berman liked oh-so-much. I'm still shocked, SHOCKED I say, that he fired Ron Jones. His music was the highlight of almost every episode it was in -- Best of Both Worlds, Defector, Booby Trap, Q Who, Evolution, etc... Such a pity.
Wed, Feb 5, 2014, 10:08pm (UTC -5)
The date on each page of the script is 3/17/89, and it's very rare that all dates in a script are the same.
Makes a wee bit more sense now, especially since the author was Irish or Scottish.
Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 2:51pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Feb 19, 2014, 5:38am (UTC -5)
It's probably just a reflection of our society too though, in that we tend to elevate and personify nature ("not what nature intended") versus a general theme that man cannot exceed nature and shouldn't try (transhumanism, genetic modification, that sort of thing). I tried to explain to a friend who "doesn't drink anything with chemicals in it" that water is a chemical; we went around in circles for 20 minutes.
I like that duality in fiction though, there's this sort of double-edged sword, we celebrate the potential of the future yet are wary at the same time (striking a balance is probably best).
Along those lines, I recommend Spike Jonze' latest movie "Her".
Plot setup (but not ending) spoilers: People focus on the "man falls in love with his operating system" element like it's a joke, but it ends up being a really nice and positive look at how love transcends the need for bodies. And I'd say it's quite a pro-science movie, if you know what I mean. There's never a sense of "how sad, why couldn't he find a real person", the movie barely even questions the worth of an AI (one or two characters aside).
Sat, Mar 1, 2014, 11:51pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Mar 21, 2014, 1:43am (UTC -5)
Sat, Mar 29, 2014, 6:25pm (UTC -5)
Also, what's the point of a wool sweater that only covers the breasts? Don't they know that body fat in this area already provides plenty of insulation?
The most problematic part of the episode is when three men, including Picard, bargain away women's sexual freedom in exchange for shelter. Isn't that basically prostitution? They barely acknowledge at the end that women might have the right to refuse having three husbands. How would Picard feel if he was forced to take on three wives or leave the Enterprise to be dropped off at the nearest planet? It's weird that a ship full of celibates is comfortable forcing women to take on three husbands. This is more Starfleet arrogance where they're obviously superior to these primitive people and would never themselves agree to play by the rules they're imposing on others. A disturbing anti-feminist and morally retrograde episode.
Mon, Apr 7, 2014, 7:13pm (UTC -5)
And if he has a Klingon disease that made him faint, why did Pulaski claim that "Klingons don't faint"? It's like saying that humans don't sneeze. The whole exchange seemed absurd.
Mon, Apr 7, 2014, 10:05pm (UTC -5)
(But I never realized it was absurd for the reason you mention. Good catch!)
Mon, Dec 29, 2014, 7:07pm (UTC -5)
Yes. This one is unforgivably bad on almost every level. Half a star for the enjoyable Worf-Pulaski moments, but everything from the "three children each from three husbands" conclusion to Riker murdering (yes, murdering) the clones in their sleep with no permission or objection raised to the unnecessary Irish caricatures to Brenna's obsession with her own *dirty feet* make this one of the worst TNG hours yet. I am going to need a couple of days before I start watching again.
Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 6:26am (UTC -5)
Tue, Jan 20, 2015, 3:35am (UTC -5)
Bonus: This was one of the episodes which were redone for "Sinnlos im Weltraum" (pointless in space), a German TNG gagdub from the early 1990s. There, the Enterprise is en route to a big drinking party and picks up the Bringloidi to have them brew liquor on the ship. Danilo O'Dell constantly asks Picard for the way to the loo to take a "beer shit". The away team only beams down to the Mariposa colony because their leader is supposed to have stored a few crates of beer. And of course Pulaski conducts a bioscan on Worf's dick. Well, I didn't say it was particularly highbrow.
Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:42pm (UTC -5)
The kill the clone scene was definitely a whiff.
The Eddie Murphy look alikes wrere amusing though. Hee, Hee, Hee . . . . .
Best scene was when Worf gave them a real drink.
Thu, Aug 27, 2015, 1:58pm (UTC -5)
This is a horror show of epic proportions, and smacks to me of two ideas not strong enough for their own show being rammed together. From the broad humour and brazen caricatures of the first half, to the more serious and disturbing elements of the second half, to the morally questionable conclusion, this hits all the wrong beats.
The tea ceremony offers some redemption - including a welcome call back for Klingon love poetry - but it can't save it. A shocker. 1 star.
Mon, Oct 19, 2015, 6:39pm (UTC -5)
I think she simply meant that fainting was very very rare for Klingons. And when it turns out that he has a childhood disease, that makes sense. Most Klingons would have had it as children, but if an adult got it, he might faint.
Jammer asked why Riker and Brenna hooked up. For me, that was one of the few parts of the episode that made sense. Brenna is exactly the type of woman Riker likes--smart, sexy, confident, powerful. Not to mention she was wearing a knitted crop-top, which is always welcome.
Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 11:28am (UTC -5)
Also noteworthy in this episode was the flagrant murder of several clones by Riker, which was precipitated by Picard's flippant dismissal of the notion of ANY Enterprise crew donating genetic material. Again, it was not Riker and Pulowski's refusal to voluntarily donate their material that troubled me, but Picard's casual presumption that nobody of the 1,000 crew members would agree to this that bugged me. If he had cited the Prime Directive that would have been one thing - but I just wasn't on the same page with this anti cloning attitude. It just seemed out of place. Riker's notion that something would be lost in the universe if he was cloned (an ironic comment considering what ultimately happened with his character and the Thomas Riker character) came across as superstitious, again out of place in the Star Trek universe and unworthy of a Starfleet officer. For the record, I would have been fine with the donation myself!
The episode ends with yet another baffling point where Picard more or less orders the two societies to merge, even prescribing polygamy as a solution to their problem. As others noted, this was yet another dubious decision that just felt out of place and totally inconsistent with the setting and character.
It's like the writers were just on another frequency from the rest of us with this episode.
Fri, May 6, 2016, 12:43pm (UTC -5)
1 Star for the Tea ceremony.
Wed, May 18, 2016, 1:09pm (UTC -5)
So interesting idea, horrible execution. Danilo O'Dell is so rough he offends Irish peoples world-wide. Maybe the Enterprise should have let the star wipe him out, so the universe wouldn't be further populated by horrible Irish caricatures.
As for the tech-dependent society, why didn't they consider space exploration? Surely they could've looked for nearby colonies to trade, work, and proliferate with. None of their plight makes any sense unless you consider their race built to inevitably mate with O'Dell's group.
The only thing redeemable about these people is Brenna O'Dell, who despite also being a caricature, at least depicts a competent women in charge of incompetent men.
The Worf/Polaski scenes are fine, but don't really fit into the message of the episode.
1 star.
Sat, Jun 4, 2016, 3:32pm (UTC -5)
Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 9:43am (UTC -5)
Still, this episode is definitely not one of TNG's token episodes, and altogether a rather weak one. Others here have made some good points on why and how it is.
Tue, Jun 28, 2016, 4:56pm (UTC -5)
Also, there are presumably thousands of Mariposans (since they have cities). Why couldn't the Bringloidi males (and the Enterprise males, for that matter) donate sperm to inseminate the clone women? Riker didn't seem too reluctant to donate his DNA to the Bringloidi genome.
Sun, Nov 6, 2016, 6:42am (UTC -5)
I find this a nice episode, while not the best of all, it still is one of the few than you will remember as the "irishman and a herd on the ship" and I for one like my stereotypes. However I have to agree this episode has a dark side than is passed to easely as well.
I judge an episode from 3 points :
*hard scifi
*continuity
*overal enjoyment
In the hard scify point this one ranks supurb.
all facets are plausible, only the "exact break up of the ship in 2 parts with both ariving on a habitable planet some distance from eachother" while plausible, it is a bit far streched.
and the best cells for cloning are not the ones lining the stomach, but stemcells from other area's but not sure that knowledge was available when this came out.
so overall 4,5/5 for hard scifi
continuety
no conflicts and thats an achievement in itself, but also no tie in what so ever with any other episode or movie of trek what so ever.
I find they did not go deep enough with worfs measels, some talk about him not being exposed to klingons as a child enough, and how he now got it due some recent contact with klingon children would have been nice.
Overall a solid 3.5/5
enjoyment
Lots of funny scenes, the irish and the herde on board were great.
The o'donnel and his feisty daughter too, sure our lady's man would like a hit of that.
The worf scene did offer some comical relieve but whe could have done without, the tea ceremony was nice though and worth it, only I felt a bit more pain and suffering and sharing that poetry would have been nice, not having worf stand back onb the bridge the next second.
But I have to deduct MAYOR points for the murder of their two clones, as I am personally a strong advocate AGAINST abortus, I find the calmth they murdered their two clones horrible, it turns two characters of the crew forever in bloody murderes without giving so much as a hinge about it.
(for the one who saying an rape/abortion paralel is used here, well in that case I see abortion as murder in the first degree, and a larger crime than rape. I am also against the death penalty, while killing the rapist would from a moral point at least be understandable (it would still be a larger crime than the rape itself) killing the child (or in this case the clone) that has had no hand what so ever in the crime done unto you, makes you a far worse criminal than the one was that inflicted it on you.)
overal I give this episode 2/5 points (it would have been 4.5/5 if they left the clone murdering out, I cannot have that slip)
so thats gives an average of 3.5/5 or translated to the stars rating 2.5 stars.
Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 8:13pm (UTC -5)
Anyway, yeah, this episode is a failure on every possible level. Plot points introduced just to be abandoned after two scenes (including the freaking teaser), absurd stereotypes, awful attempt at abortion Aesop (perfectly fitting the wacky Irish antics in the first half), incredibly arrogant behavior from our heroes and just plain terrible storytelling.
I like how Picard says he won't find any volunteers on the Enterprise (and apparently the whole Federation, since the option of just getting their request to some colonies willing to send them samples is never brought up). I may not be entirely on board with that particular criticism, but the whole "yes, we are ALL individuals" attitude really does show up here and there.
@FJ
Nothing? What about Picard threatening to steal their clone-making technology? Funny these assholes got the idea in the same scene that opened with Riker saying they right to their own bodies.
Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 6:34pm (UTC -5)
Love Brenna and her odd crop-top. Hate the insulting depiction of dumb dirty Irishmen - even in the eighties that seemed just ugly. Hated that Brenna got stuck being the men's mommy, practically. Hated that she went after the leader of the other group because "He looks like he has two coins to rub together!" Hated that the Irish females were expected to breed babies inside their bodies for the good of society - yeah I read that novel: it's called "Handmaid's Tale". It's prevalent IRL too: it exists in backward and fundamentalist and poor societies all over the world. Breed for God, breed for your man, breed soldiers for our revolution, breed because it's your female responsibility.
And yet in spite of all those objections... Worf! Pulaski! , Riker! The whole damn episode entertains me, I guess even more than it infuriates me. While the Season One clunkers make we wince and look away, this one makes me stare with mouth agape.
Wed, May 24, 2017, 4:30pm (UTC -5)
Dreadful stereotyping of Irish tinker ,gypsy communities is not even remotely funny but it is insulting.
What were they thinking of for goodness sake?-this may just about have worked in a frothy hollywood musical some decades previously but not in this context.
And the wrap up-so all sins forgiven eh?
This guy arranges the non consensual assault and intrusive violation of two senior officers and there are no negative consequences.
Mind you I guess the Enterprise did go and poke its intrusive nose into the colony's affairs to begin with.
This one gets 3 wormholes from me.
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 7:01pm (UTC -5)
I agreed pretty much with Jammer's review in its entirety. 1 1/2 stars
Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 12:54am (UTC -5)
Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 9:14am (UTC -5)
Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 10:13pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 2:12pm (UTC -5)
Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 9:53am (UTC -5)
I was always intrigued by the concept of Federation colonies, and those episodes on that theme usually didn't hang together well to my chagrin. This is a prime example of a solid idea gone stereotypically bad.
This one might have worked better if the Enterprise encountered the clone colony first. The ship is ready to evacuate them because of solar activity, but the away team quickly learns the colony has protective measures in place.
The clones send the Enterprise away by telling about the second group of colonists, the ones who eschew technology. However, they come up with a ruse to keep the away team (Riker, Pulaski, Geordi and a red shirt we must sadly sacrifice) on the planet.
So off goes the Enterprise to save some Luddites. When they get there, this away team ( Data, Troi and O'Brien) find not a bunch of wild Irish stereotypes but just a general group of Europeans who are pretty happy in their simple nonmechanical lives but also stubbornly proud about it. And they refuse to leave. To the point they attack O'Brien at one point to make their point.
(I think this is where you can have the strong daughter make the father and leader see they can no longer reject all technology; they must adapt to some technology to survive)
Eventually, the solar flares get so bad the daughter wins the day. They beam on board and head back to Clone Colony.
So of course our team learns about the clones AFTER the Enterprise as left orbit and they are forced into the clone experiments. Red Shirt is killed when the first attempt goes wrong.
Enterprise comes in when the away team is about to undergo the second cloning attempt.
And on their own with some assist by Troi, the daughter of Luddite group and the leader of the clones decide to merge colonies, one not too dependent nor totally devoid of technology.
Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 6:29pm (UTC -5)
There are so many loose ends to this one: How did the 2 colonies that came from the same ship get separated such that one kept all the technology and the other had to live as peasants? What was the whole point of Worf's collapse -- just so that he could have a confidante in Pulaski? And how does that figure into the rest of the episode? What was the point of horndog Riker hooking up with the Irish leader's daughter? Trek made a few too many mistakes trying to abbreviate a manufactured romance. And was it Eddie Murphy who acted as one of the cloned humans in the 2nd colony? (ok the last question is isn't really important).
The part with the Irish colony -- it was too tedious, poorly written, poorly acted. Didn't it seem like Picard was extremely curt with this group? Good that he finally has a laugh about it. But overall, TNG suffered from a great deal of this kind of poorly conceived humanoid species in the early going that look particularly bad in light of other shows and later seasons of TNG.
The 2nd colony presented a more appropriate story for Trek. The need for genetic material -- reminds me of "Wink of an Eye" from TOS S3. The idea of rape/abortion ethical issues should have been examined when it was pretty clear that Riker/Pulaski did not want to contribute their genetic material -- it is right for them to have control over their own bodies.
1 star for "Up the Long Ladder" -- no way am I bowing to the absurd. This episode is just very weak on so many levels. Some stuff just thrown in without any consequence, an entirely predictable ending. Funny (actually strange) how the episode all of a sudden shifts to the 2nd colony and we don't hear about the 1st colony until it's time for the shotgun marriage at the end. The story should have just had 1 colony that was running out of genetic material and then focus more on the ethical aspects surrounding cloning etc. Instead, the bulk of the episode with the focus on the Irish colonists was like an insult to the intelligence of Trek fans.
Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 9:05pm (UTC -5)
The one thing very clever about this episode's use of the Irish colonists is that there is a very deliberate choice to portray them as a bunch of moronic hicks, and it succeeds at this all too well. And thrown in for good measure is 'horndog Riker', as you put it. Both of these are irritating, and I think it's deliberate. We're suppose to dismiss the entire story with these peasants as being a waste of our time, a waste of the Enterprise's time, and Riker's 'romance' as being so lowbrow that it's a mustache. Yay, a group of people who don't know how to do anything but have a roll in the hay. How inspiring.
But then we turn on a dime and see a colony devoid of any such irritants, to a fault; it's a dry, colorless and cerebral place, with people who are mere copies of each other. They have no faults, and also no life to them. Literally. They can't breed, and this is shown in the sci-fi setting to be a weakness in their cloning technique, but metaphorically it's meant to portray that if you take away the 'messy' process of procreation and turn it into a factory technique - much like Brave New World - something crucial will have been lost. And this brings us back to our messy Irish colonists, whose most annoying features, which we sorely wished them to shed, is meant to lead inextricably to the other colony's situation, once actually shed. The facepalm horndog story - suddenly comes to light as the most natural thing ever, two people seeing each other and nature doing its thing. This 'cheesy' story, which we also wished had never happened, *never did happen* on the other colony, and now they're doomed because of it to live a life of sterility.
As I see it this episode very carefully gave us a series of things to hate in the first colony and wish wasn't there, and then gives us our wish in the second colony, with ghastly results. Be careful what you wish for, right? You may not like how it looks down the line. And I do think there's a cautionary tale here about trying to sanitize life too much and pack each part of life into a neat box that doesn't annoy anyone. You end up smoothing out all the rough edges and are left going through the motions of a life but nothing more.
It's too bad the episode actually does suck, hah. Because this narrative is actually one that needs to be told. The writing intent is clever, but I sometimes say you should watch out trying to portray something annoying; you might just succeed and end up with an annoying episode. Any meaningful message will be lost when the audience has already checked out.
Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 9:58pm (UTC -5)
Yes, I agree with you. The writers had an idea for a take on a classic Trek theme, but as was often the case in early TNG, the execution was totally botched with too much emphasis being placed on the wrong things such that the episode comes off as difficult to believe and enjoy.
This episode is supposed to be about how 2 diametrically opposing societies need each other for survival. And "horndog Riker" is a foreshadowing of the predictable final solution -- it should be totally out of character for the 2nd in command to get shotgun romantically involved with the Irish leader's daughter who is very bossy etc. But it happens successfully and so we are to believe that the Irish peasants and the clones will start pro-creating and live happily ever after. Not good enough for me.
I think of something similar like "The Enemy Within" -- how the Jekyll and Hyde Kirks needed each other for survival as a far superior example of this theme. It also provides an examination of what makes up a man / society without all the unnecessary distractions.
Wed, Apr 4, 2018, 11:27am (UTC -5)
It's probably safe to say writers just wanted to have a nice but unrelated story about Pulaski bonding with a member of the senior staff. Though considering this small exchange could have been a microcosm of the episode's larger message, as often the case in TNG's side stories, it's a bit of a missed opportunity.
Wed, Apr 4, 2018, 11:43am (UTC -5)
Sat, May 26, 2018, 9:41am (UTC -5)
Sat, May 26, 2018, 12:12pm (UTC -5)
I think cloning is outlawed in the Federation so I wouldn’t be surprised if the clones have no rights here. And to be fair, our society has no laws regarding the treatment of artificially created human life. It’s really a subject beyond abortion and delves into philosophical questions about treatment of artificial life.
Sat, May 26, 2018, 12:45pm (UTC -5)
Sat, May 26, 2018, 2:19pm (UTC -5)
I don’t disagree with you, but this discussion begs the question of when is an artificially constructed embryo or cell cluster considered life? With the topic of abortion you can make the argument that every step from fertilization to impregnation is biological and considered life and therefore deserves protection at all stages. It’s not quite as simple here because the scientists presumably use inorganic matter in the process of reproduction. So were the clones killed here still mostly in the inorganic stage? I don’t think we get an answer this episode so Riker’s culpability is still somewhat murky. And that’s assuming Starfleet has regulations to protect the early stages of cloning.
Mon, May 28, 2018, 8:46am (UTC -5)
I liked the episode for some mild comedy. Highlight is
"MY GOD, Picard! The place is a bloody death trap!! Lightning bolts falling from the ceiling!"
Mon, May 28, 2018, 10:31am (UTC -5)
I don't really get you here. You seem to be using "organic" to mean "alive" or maybe "biological"? But even then I can't follow you. You are suggesting a cluster of cells growing in a woman is automatically alive but not necessarily a fully recognizably human clone?!
Mon, May 28, 2018, 10:35am (UTC -5)
Mon, May 28, 2018, 11:19am (UTC -5)
Mon, May 28, 2018, 11:27am (UTC -5)
...once it’s fully grown I agree. But before then I would assert it shouldn’t be granted any more rights than a houseplant. Chop up the logic all you like, but there’s a fundamental difference between a biological conception between two people and a birth grown in a pertri dish in a lab. One has established rights, the other, not so much. Not yet, anyway...
Mon, May 28, 2018, 11:36am (UTC -5)
Clones don't come from 'chemicals', they come from human tissue that's grown just like a human being. Since this is sci-fi we may suppose that the growing process isn't identical to what happens with a human fetus as it grows into an adult human, but something *like that* must be happening where a small number of cells take shape and begin to 'grow up'. In the DS9 episode the science of it looks really wonky as - perhaps for dramatic effect - they made it look like a total mess so that they could have a puzzle as to what it was becoming. The reality would likely be closer to the forming of a small person who then grows in the vat.
So your question about when the 'life' begins is morally identical to when human life begins now. Does it begin when the process of growth is initiated, or when it reaches X level of development, or when it's totally able to be separated from the womb/machinery? I don't see how being a clone changes that.
However I'll add that the main argument for why abortion is acceptable is that it's a woman's body and she shouldn't be made to do something with it she's unwilling to do. In the case of a fetus/baby in a vat that argument would be gone and it would be more like *giving someone else* an abortion against their will. I'm willing to bet that would be tried as murder in a court.
Mon, May 28, 2018, 11:42am (UTC -5)
But if we take this episode as canon, then obviously Riker and Polaski were not charged with murder. It stands to reason, then, that early term clones are not protected, even in the 24th century. Unless the lot of you are saying Picard went on to cover up Riker’s crime, a notion in itself that seems quite of character.
Mon, May 28, 2018, 11:51am (UTC -5)
Mon, May 28, 2018, 12:01pm (UTC -5)
I agree considering the quality of this episode.
Nevertheless in-universe I can’t think of a Trek episode that deals with the rights of clones at early stages of creation. It might have been too controversial a concept to tackle in the late 1980s, though I’m not even sure how the argument would play out if human clones existed today.
Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:21pm (UTC -5)
I agree. However, just to say what I think the idea behind this sequence was: another argument against abortion IN THE CASE OF RAPE is that people should have some control over their genetic material. That is what I think the (I want to really emphasize the word metaphor here) METAPHOR is here -- Riker and Pulaski are raped, in that they have their genetic material stolen and used to create new life forms against their will, and so the "argument" behind that clone-killing scene is that Riker and Pulaski have right not to have their genetic code stolen from them. And while the clones looked like Riker and Pulaski, I think that they were meant to not yet be conscious, and thus in some abstract, METAPHORIC sense, "not alive yet."
I'm not defending this episode or that scene, I just think that this is what the idea is.
The thing is, at the moment, the most common occasion in which someone is forced to create a life form with their genetic material, without consenting at all, is in the case where a woman is raped and then gets pregnant. I agree that the scene had nothing to do with cloning but is actually about abortion, and I think that's the analogy that's at the heart of the scene.
However, I basically agree that Riker and Pulaski's actions are wrong here if we take this episode literally, as opposed to as a fully-metaphorical not-very-coherent thought experiment. They were raped and should feel violated and disgusted -- because I think it should be a fundamental tenet of human ethics that people should have a right to keep their own genetic material and not have it stolen. However, they are not being forced to "carry" the clones now that they have been created, and so while they have a right to be angry and the Clone Society did a great crime to them in stealing their material, the Riker/Pulaski clones seem to be viable to be living as sentient human beings when they wake up.
Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:19pm (UTC -5)
Drafting off Chrome, though, I don't think this would NECESSARILY be true from the very instant that the clones started forming -- like if they started with ten cells in a petri dish, even if those cells could form a full human being clone eventually, I'd say (not conclusively -- but it's my take) that they wouldn't meet the standard for a human life with all the requisite rights. The thing is, because we see the clones look like physically complete adult humans, it really seems like they should meet the standard for an alive human, as opposed to a collection of cells that if left to grow could become an alive human, if cloning is *anything at all* like the way real cloning works. Although, given that they somehow grow up to be adults (in Pulaski's case, a middle aged adult) before waking up, it's obvious that it doesn't really work anything like real cloning. I think the episode works best if you take it as being very stagey and non-literal -- and on that level, it still doesn't particularly work.
Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:37pm (UTC -5)
Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:42pm (UTC -5)
Sat, Jun 2, 2018, 4:42am (UTC -5)
Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 3:38am (UTC -5)
Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 9:09pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 9:10pm (UTC -5)
Tue, Feb 5, 2019, 4:17am (UTC -5)
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 12:22pm (UTC -5)
+1 on Jammer's review
Thu, May 9, 2019, 2:30am (UTC -5)
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