Review Text
The issues surrounding Moclan culture have been slowly and steadily building since "About a Girl" last season, and have continued to magnify ("Primal Urges," "Deflectors") throughout this season. They reach a boiling point with "Sanctuary," which is an effective and involving drama that falls back on a number of classic Trekkian elements, including the impassioned public hearing and the tense diplomatic crisis.
While one could argue that we've perhaps seen too much of the Moclans over these first two seasons, I would instead argue that what the writers have done is build a solid arc across a series using an episodic format. I'm reminded of the way Worf's discommendation arc and the Klingon civil war played out in the middle seasons of TNG.
This episode effectively builds on all that past Moclan history and delivers a satisfying hour of old-school TV-Trek morality-play drama. It does this while also supplying a clear example of what might now be termed an "Orvillian moment" — which is something that grows specifically from this series' creators' sensibilities (specifically Seth MacFarlane's) and is unique to this show in a way that signifies a personal stamp. As in many previous cases, it's a piece of 20th-century pop culture that's fused with the 25th-century setting to create an irreverent anachronism amid an otherwise serious affair. But we'll get to that shortly.
Two Moclans come aboard the Orville with a large case that glows mysteriously when opened, much like the MacGuffin suitcase in Pulp Fiction. We later learn it contains an infant Moclan girl who is being smuggled to a Moclan sanctuary colony where she can be raised along with other Moclan females. This colony, the two tell Bortus when he discovers their subterfuge, is a place where females are not subject to the forced gender reassignment and persecution they would face on Moclus. Bortus allows them to proceed — after first showing his son Topa what a Moclan girl is. Bortus is trying to teach Topa more enlightened values. (Topa has been misbehaving in school — his teacher is played by Marina Sirtis, one of several Trek-notable guest stars — in part because he has been learning from Klyden the traditional and backward Moclan values that females are inferior.)
After Bortus receives a reprimand from Mercer, Grayson, and Finn that provides an interesting depiction of prudence considering a scope beyond the word of the two Moclans, the Orville tracks down the secret colony of women (and the men who live among them), which reveals a program that functions as a sort of Moclan Underground Railroad for Moclan parents of girls seeking to flee their children's state-ordered fate.
The colony is led by Haveena, who proves to be an interesting character as portrayed by Rena Owen. She prompts the aforementioned Orvillian pop-culture moment when she hears Dolly Parton's "9 to 5" played back during a ride in Mercer's shuttle and instantly declares this is the song that will be the anthem for her people's struggle.
If I have my doubts that this song, of all songs, should be The One, my doubts are at least echoed by Mercer in a whimsical moment. (Besides, given what song clearances cost, there's no way of knowing if this was the song the writers wanted anyway. They might have picked from what they were able to afford.) Still, it's one of those things that kind of takes you out of the moment because it seems to sacrifice the integrity of the character for the Pop-Culture Bright Idea. At the very least, the Bright Idea later pays off when the music is played again — which we'll get to shortly.
I was certain "About a Girl" would reveal the truth about Moclan females — namely, that there were far more born than Moclan society widely acknowledges. (After all, how else to explain a once-in-a-million occurrence happening to both Klyden and his child?) We didn't get that reveal then, but we get it here, and it makes for a good payoff to what we can now see as a patient long game. Nice work here.
Haveena, with Mercer as her counsel, engages in an emergency hearing in front of the Union council to request if the colony can be recognized as an independent state. The Moclan government is furious, and orders the Union to turn over the women for extradition, which creates a political crisis because the Union is so heavily dependent on the Moclans for weapons — especially now, given the urgency of the Kaylon threat. (We also finally learn that the Moclans are indeed members of the Union, which wasn't clear up to this point. They threaten to pull out if they don't get their way.)
In a wise casting move, the episode enlists Tony Todd as the Moclan representative arguing the case against Haveena and Mercer. If you're going to do a sci-fi courtroom drama with a fiery verbal antagonist, Todd is your guy. His character presents the Moclan perspective, and he puts forward the political argument that internal Moclan society is not the Union's concern. (The idea that placing human values on an alien culture is discussed by the Union admirals, although one wonders what the criteria for admission into the Union includes if core values aren't among them.)
The ensuing political maneuvering is a compelling example of efficient, episodic TV storytelling. In a scene with the Union admirals, we see how the very real consequences of taking a moral stand are considered, and what the consequences of doing so could mean. The issue of political idealism is weighed against the potential real-world costs of losing the Moclans as allies. And what's especially interesting is how the episode lands on a compromised middle ground (the colony's survival is assured, but the secret program that allows Moclan girls to be smuggled from Moclus is shuttered) that probably wouldn't live up to the Trekkian moral ideal, but plays here as prudent diplomacy.
Meanwhile, back at the colony, the Orville has been tasked with safeguarding the population from a Moclan ship while the hearing is ongoing. This eventually leads to a skirmish, both in orbit and on the ground, and we get a space battle as well as an infantry shootout. When the fight breaks out, it's scored to "9 to 5." To my surprise, this proves extremely effective. It manages to bring a unique, madcap energy to what could've been routine, even implausible, action; it feels simultaneously ironic, refreshing, inventive, and fun. It's the payoff done as an "Orvillian moment." And by the time it happens, this weirdly counter-intuitive release of tension has been earned thanks to the sincerity and stakes borne out by the rest of the episode's polemics. It's a tonal incongruity that speaks to what this show has established itself to be — and so therefore completely consistent.
One thing this episode does not resolve, which continues to be an ongoing issue, is the question of Bortus' and Klyden's shaky marriage. Here you have a couple holding ideologically incompatible views, and it seems increasingly unworkable. The idea of a Moclan divorce was already (and wrong-headedly) explored in "Primal Urges," stemming from issues of sex and pornography. Here we see a more fundamental problem that indicates a possibly unsolvable divide. For now, the episode does not hint at an inevitable breakup. But eventually the series may have to go there, because the Bortus/Klyden status quo seems more untenable with every episode.
If "Lasting Impressions" was one of the best examples of this show being completely laid-back, then "Sanctuary" is perhaps the best example of this series seriously employing traditional Trekkian staples. It's well-written (by Trek alum Joe Menosky), well-acted, and well-executed (directed by Trek alum Jonathan Frakes). This ticks a lot of good old-school Trek boxes, and ticks them well.
Previous episode: Lasting Impressions
Next episode: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow
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154 comments on this post
Dave in MN
I'm at a friend's house at the moment so I don't have a bunch of time for a thorough review, but this was a fantastic episode that finally addressed that nitpick from About A Girl. It was great to see Haveena again .... plus, it was nice to see how the Union Council functions.
A more thorough review to come, but extremely Trekkish episode! 3.5 stars
PS I'm encouraged by how the promo said the "season finale" in 2 weeks, not the "finale". That's the first Ive heard FOX officially use industry phrasing implying there might be a renewal.
John Dark
Marina -- Still hot!
Mertov
Thoroughly entertaining outing !
The Dolly speech is the pinnacle of Season 2. Hahahaha :))
Last 10 minutes the coherence of the plot falls apart a bit, but still, one of the best hours of The Orville.
And Bortus, divorce Klyden! Now!
Dave in MN
@ Mertov
Amen to that!
Klyden is seriously getting on my nerves at this point.
Mertov
Yeah Dave, and he might be getting on the crew's nerves too by now, let alone his husband!!
Dave in MN
It was so great when Bortus chewed out Klyden in front of Kelly for his bigotry. I literally shouted "Finally!!!" at the screen. Very cathartic, haha.
SlackerInc
I liked that too. Of course, if he divorces him, it should hopefully be in more of a "Union" way.
I generally enjoyed the episode, which had elements reminiscient of "Captain Marvel", but I didn't think they showed us what was behind Topa's change of heart regarding his female classmates.
mosley
they did. that undoubtedly was the scene where topa was shown the baby girl. it was just a bit too distant in the plot to make the connection as clear as it could have been.
another very entertaining episode. what can i say. i like the orville. all of jammers complaints about it never quite being able to decide how serious it wants to take itself (or not) are absolutely spot on, but at the end of the day, im entertained, i like the characters, its a fun universe and theres lots of stories to tell.
what more to ask.
Alan Roi
Above average episode. Orville certainly has improved in the second half of season 2. Marina was a nice addition, but also good to see less adored Trek Alumni like Tony Todd and F. Murray Abraham making an appearance.
Alan Roi
@mosely
I think the show has benefitted from Seth recognizing his writing limitations and has taken less of a front seat regarding everything to do with the show. He's goode enough at writing scripts which play to his strengths (A Happy Refrain, Lasting Impressions for example) and should learn to keep out of the way for those that expose to many of his weaknesses (The World is a Birthday Cake, Blood of Patriots and most of Season 1, IMO). I do hope, however, that it isn't too late, as the my biggest annoyance related to this show has finally started to fade for the most part.
Hardy
This episode was long overdue. In Moclan society that practice genocide on females via gender surgery, a clandestine, resistance clan would be logical. When Frakes directed the similar peripheral plot Insurrection 20 years ago, he made that film a comedy. It didn't have these enormous, serious stakes presented to the Union. Are we defined by our values, or do we compromise them to suit our interests? And like Rush's "Free Will", the Union choosing not to decide is still making a choice for THEIR society. What makes this episode great is the Union and Moclans NEED this bandaid solution knowing this "Islands in the Stream" alliance is destined to fail. This episode is simply the best of Orville. "Two Takes" Frakes' pacing, CGI battle scenes, and expert direction of his All-Star cast had me stunned. My only nitpick is not knowing which Moclan society will first decide to break their non-aggression pact. 4/4.
SlackerInc
@Alan Roi: I still think "Birthday Cake" is the best episode of the series to date.
Tomalak
I really liked how they tied this in to Mercer's prophetic comment about how Moclan society is so different that he wonders how much they can really get along. At the time I thought "Hmm well as long as they keep their strange laws to their own planet it shouldn't become a diplomatic issue". This episode answered that.
On Sirtis, she was heavily billed on social media - and then barely got a line this episode. Disappointing, really. Why bother promoting that? I hope she is back again.
Tim C
A few episodes ago, I said that I thought The Orville had hit its ceiling rank. I was wrong. This was a perfect episode that didn't feel like it hit any wrong notes. This feels like what the show has wanted to be all along. I'm really impressed and hope they can maintain this level of quality through to the end of the season.
Karl Zimmerman
Not a bad episode at all. I think I heard Marina Sirtis was doing a cameo this episode, but Tony Todd was a nice surprise. That man always deserved more work. More broadly, this was another episode with heart, and managed to perform the Trek "issue episode" dance much better than some of The Orville's other outings.
That said, I had a few issues with it. First, I am feeling a bit Moclan-ed out. This is the third full-on Moclan episode this season - arguably the fourth if you include the whole urination ritual thing in the season premier (which was I think more a framing device). The biggest issue with the episode, however, was I felt like the ending was - at least on a global sense - kinda a reset button. Rather than have to make a harsh choice between realpolitik and ideals, The Union splits things down the middle, and any sort of wider ramifications are kinda scuttled. The only lasting change may be that Bortus's relationship with Klyven is even more disfunctional than it already was.
Oh, and another random aside - although Isaac is seen in this episode, I don't think he had any lines. One wonders why they went to the trouble of keeping him if he isn't going to play any role in the show beyond an extra? They must still be hoping for a third season I suppose.
Perry
Impressive episode. It was cool to see many new alien characters sitting down at the Global Council. 4/4 rating - what a week it makes that lead character goes from Lt. Gordon to Lt. Cmdr. Bortus.
https://tv.avclub.com/a-smart-and-kinetic-the-orville-makes-the-case-for-inde-1833991191/amp
Zifnab
The uprising of the Moclan colonists when Kelly and Bortus got there with Dolly Parton in the background reminded me of the Narn uprising against the Centauri in B5 Season 3.
Anyone know who the actor playing the Moclan ambassador was? He seemed very familiar, something about his voice I think.
Dave in MN
^
I'm pretty sure that was Tony Todd (Candyman/ Worf's brother Kurn/ the coroner from the Final Destination films/ "old" Jake Sisko).
Karl Zimmerman
@ Zifnab
The Moclan ambassador was played by Tony Todd, a well-known Trek alumnus who (among other roles) played Worf's brother Kurn and the grown-up Jake Sisko in The Visitor.
Chris
"When Frakes directed the similar peripheral plot Insurrection 20 years ago, he made that film a comedy."
Huh? Don't understand this comment at all. It had a few comedic scenes but it was a straight drama for the most part. And the stakes were pretty high.
I have had major problems with the Orville from episode one and was continually asking myself why I continued to watch a show that annoyed me. I am glad I stuck with it. The 2nd half of season 2 has finally hit it's stride and I am actually looking forward to each episode.
This was another well written episode with very little distracting "humor." It presented the issues with some nuance and had a fairly realistic ending (there is no simple resolution to social problems).
3.5 for me.
Gil
Overall, another enjoyable, well told episode that expanded the boundaries of the Orville universe and its characters with surprising nuance. Only a couple missteps for me: the first would be that Heveena was that over-familiar morality play fixture: the walking talking polemic, and the second, would be that the stakes involved in the violent drama that played out planetside and in orbit were undercut by juxtaposing it with Parton’s upbeat anthem, which had already been employed twice earlier and in more dramatically appropriate situations. A case of going to the well one too many times to justify the licensing cost, me thinks.
*** outa ****
Yanks
OK, how many were grinnin ear to ear and laughing out loud when the battle started in orbit and on the planet surface?
"Workin nine to five".... HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!
The camera work in sink with the fighting and the song was phenominal!
That had to be one of the most enjoyable couple minutes in TV history for me! I immediately rewound and rewatched.
This was as TNG Star Trek as one could get with out being on the Enterprise D with a French Captain with a British accent.
I glad they have gone back to the Moclan female thing. Not that it was left dangling, but because I think it could be the basis for a great episode. .... which by all accounts this was.
Speaking of dangling... I don't feel they addressed the "Issac" thing... he just sort of not been there and all of a sudden all is OK and he's contributing on the bridge.
Lots of Trek alumn in this one....
Frakes (directing)
Marina Sirtus
Tony Todd
Ron Canada (one of my favorites)
I like the solution here... a realistic compromise achieved in the midst of some realistic polictical drama.
The Moclan battle cruiser was pretty darn cool.
This is a 4-star Orville episode to me.
Gerontius
I was pleased they didn't see it as necessary to put in many jokey bits along the way.
I'd have sooner they'd managed without the rather unconvincing skirmish at the end, and kept the standoff between the two ships teetering on the edge of conflict rather than going over the edge. It didn't seem too plausible that the Maclons would have jumped the gun in that way in the middle of tense negotiations.
But that's rather nitpicking. It was a pretty good episode, well up to Star Trek standards (and better than a lot of Star Trek episodes).
One thing that has always struck me as strange is the way that, in spite of being a single sex species (or at least presented as being that), the Maclons think very much in terms of there being two sexes, with one being superior to another one, which doesn't actually exist. Surely they wouldn't even think in terms of "this child is a female", they'd just see it as a child with a kind of birth defect, like a human infant born with six fingers or with a tail. They might have hang-ups about it, but they wouldn't be the same kind of hang-ups we have.
Perry
This is not what the Orville wants to hear: https://tvline.com/2019/04/12/orville-ratings-season-2-episode-11/ I don't think it covered all the viewers, I bet some watch it on videos and reruns.
I guess we need a perfect score from the Jammer's review to help Orville win a season renewal.
Brian
@Perry
Well at least The Orville beat out a Gotham rerun. That’s good news, right? ...right? :(
Another Michael
I loved this episode almost from start to finish. It’s about a compelling moral issue, has great peformances, and explores the politics of the union in an interesting way. I could have done without the skirmishing... but hey, it’s crowdpleasing, it’s meaningful within the context of the narrative, especially for Bortas, and it’s pretty short, so it gets a pass. I admit the Dolly Parton thing also kind of threw me at first, but it’s both fun and adorable, and I love the Orville for it’s eagerness.
Overall, this episode and the last have proven the concept of the Orville as show in my mind. Season two has been a dramatic improvement in basically every way. The Orville is now a smart, thoughtful show that engages with substantive issues both large and small, while painting the picture of a better world. At it’s best, it manages to be funny, compelling, exciting and often very touching. It is, as Seth described it, aspirational. I love it.
5/5
Jason R.
Seth McFarlane has done it again. I was mesmerized from the teaser on. Marina Sirtis is lightning up the stage just like she did in TNG! I’d award this 6 stars but since Jammer’s system doesn’t let me I’ll content myself with 5. Onward!
90s Rerunner
Count me also among the Moclan'd out, but wow did I get sucked in once this got rolling. Highly enjoyable. The Reddit boards referred to the battle scenes as very Trek-does-Deadpool, which is a great observation. It's amazing how much the Orville has been able to do with only half the episode-count per season of 90s series. More please!
Lynos
I could've done without the Rambo action scene where Bortus and Kelly singlehandedly take on an army of Moclans (admittedly with a little help from the colonists), but this was a very good episode, played mostly straight.
- Klyden and Bortus need to call it quits. Obviously this relationship isn't working.
- I liked the different cutaways to the different aliens in the council. Anything that resembles world-building is welcome.
- For some reason many of the actors playing admirals are very stiff, especially Ted Danson. The scene where they are discussing their options in the boardroom along with Mercer is not very good.
- Best scene: Haveena getting her first exposure to the poet Dolly Parton. The series has done some very creative use this season with pop music. For once Mercer actually has to check who the singer is, instead of knowing it by heart as if he was not a 24th century man.
- Marina Sirtis!
It may have wrapped up perhaps too neatly towards the end but I thought it was solid and one of the best episodes of the season for sure. An interesting conflict and some great character development for Bortus. We missed you, Orville!
navamske
That was a halfway decent episode, but I don't find the Moclans all that interesting and would prefer that the writers not use them so much. Also, Klyden is a dick.
Topa referred to Klyden as "Papa," then called Worf "Papa." Wireless telecommunications facility?
The Dolly Parton thing was funny, but they pushed it too far.
The Marina Sirtis appearance was a complete waste. Anybody could have played that part. I don't think her character even had a name.
Nice to see Ru'afo from "Insurrection."
With each episode, I dislike Alara 2.0 even more.
I like the character of Haveena, and I guess by extension the actress who plays her.
Trent
I found this to be an excellent episode. Like many Orville episodes, its first act is very quiet, very banal, very familiar, until it begins to ratchet up the tension and leap off in a series of surprising tangents.
This episode also makes explicit the Saudi Arabia/Moclan symbolism. In our world, the United States and Great Britain are the chief allies of Saudi Arabia, a repressive monarchy which receives funding and arms (and even training in the art of squashing democratic movements) from the western superpowers. In return for weapons contracts and oil/business deals, a blind eye is turned to three facts: SA and its brand of Wahhabism (a form of hyper-conservative, far-right Islam) is the chief sponsor of regional terrorism (9/11 itself had numerous links to the Saudis), SA is a monarchy which crushes democratic movements yet is propped up by western democracies, and SA represses women and other minority groups in the name of its wacky traditions. More then any other SF show, Orville points out the hypocrisy and duplicity of supposed enlightened organizations (the Union, contemporary "secular democratic superpowers" etc).
With its Dolly Parton anthems, revolutionary women, alien lady armies and Kelly kicking ass like John Rambo, the episode is also one big hymn to third world women's rights movements (it's interesting how nobody complains about Kelly and Alara kicking butt in Orville, but Michael catches so much flak for being a superwoman in Discovery; there seems to be a likeable giddiness to Orville's Girl Power).
The episode also highlights a number of things which the Orville has done well this season: lots of patient beauty shots (lingering glamor shots of ships, of planets, of cities, of nebulae etc), good ensemble work, good world building (the Krill, Kaylon, Xelayan and Moclans especially), a cool use of music, cool architecture, lots of planet exploring, a willingness to be weird and alien (Xelayan beach horses!), a remarkable ability to ratchet up the tension, and lots of decent little space battles (the swooping camera shots which director Jonathan Frakes uses during the little space battle in this episode, are a rush).
Yes, the episode has some little flaws. Its last act is rushed, things are too neatly resolved, and several "dramatic fade outs" feel like overcooked scenes from TNG or Voyager. But these are minor. This has ultimately been an extremely good and fun season. And I think the show's comedy angle has allowed it to do Trek stuff which no longer works when told with a straight face. TOS and TNG worked well as abstract little theater plays, and the comedy here brings that level of abstraction back (notice how tonally off the "planet of the week" episodes of Discovery feel).
IMO modern Trek now can't compete with Orville for old-school space opera, and lark-like camaraderie. It should compensate by going the opposite direction: be more realistic, mundane, intellectual and politically radical. Something like an updated Star Trek the Motion Picture, with entire episodes about xenobiologists doing dull science stuff like gathering fungi and collecting regolith.
Gerontius
"Klyden and Bortus need to call it quits. Obviously this relationship isn't working."
The problem with that is that it appears the Maclon only have a single rather drastic way of ending a marriage. Klydon tried it... I think we can probably assume that they now both accept that their marriage is only an empty formality, apart from their shared responsibility for their child. Plenty of marriages like that.
Maclon children do seem to grow up remarkably quickly. No doubt if The Orville gets another season we can expect teenage angst and him falling for some non-Maclon girl, or possibly boy. It really does deserve to be allowed to continue. It's hitting its stride.
Del_Duio
Flat. Flat. Flat. All season the scriptwriters have been trying to make us feel things. And in this episode those attempts are so unrelenting, so into overdrive, that it sours most of the scenes. The weakest acting by McFarlane so far, too many speeches, Claire is out of left field, and can we stop with the window shining lensflares already?
For the record, I had been thinking S2 was an improvement over S1. But a lot of this felt like filler.
Alan Roi
@Trent
Saying modern Trek can't compte with Orville is like saying a 4K 60" 2019 screen can't compete with a 20" 80s color TV.
Alan Roi
@Jason R
Actually, you can thank Joe Menosky for this episode.
The Gorn
I don't get sucked in easily these days, but this weeks episode had my full attention from start to finish. Bravo! I never thought I'd live to see the day when I actually like The Orville. Those last two episodes make me wish we'd get another five seasons.
Perhaps I enjoy seeing so many familiar faces from past Trek shows, I don't know, but this really felt like Star Trek to me, finally, after a very long time.
I can only hope that this wasn't too little, too late for FOX to renew it.
(And yes, Captain McFarlane was a miscast...)
Gerontius
I disagree with the comment a number of people about Seth as the captain. A key element of the series is that The captain is not a grand heroic leader, he's an ordinary decent enough man doing his best in a responsible job. And that's what he comes across as. He doesn't have the dignity or presence of Picard or Cisko or the gung-ho swagger of Kirk. He's not meant to. And I like that aspect of the series. I hope that if there are more seasons they won't be trapped into making him bigger than life.
Trent
Alan said: "Saying modern Trek can't compte with Orville is like saying a 4K 60" 2019 screen can't compete with a 20" 80s color TV."
I said can't compete at "old school space opera". There's more decent Trekian holodeck episodes, planetary explorations, space battles, morality plays and wacky alien negotiations in these 2 seasons of Orville, than Disco, Enterprise and nu-Trek combined.
A straight, serious, po-faced Trek series can't tackle this material. The material needs an element of knowing cheese. This was actually something JJ Trek got right; it knew it was all a goofy lark. To do the opposite - to be modern "serious" Trek - you have to be smarter and more serious than TNG/DS9 at its best, and you have to be up there with the best of print SF. And few writers are up to that task.
Trent
Gerotinus said: "He doesn't have the dignity or presence of Picard or Cisko or the gung-ho swagger of Kirk. He's not meant to. "
I agree with your overall point, but I still feel like Ed's an amalgamation of Kirk and Picard. He's got Kirk's boyish, just-one-of-the-guys likeability. And he's used by Seth to indulge in some Picard fantasies as well, especially when Ed drops his little utopian/political/philosophical speeches.
IMO the key difference is that Ed's also a "comedic loser" archetype (especially when it comes to love and romance), and a kind of post-feminist hero, unashamedly willing to let his female sidekicks kick butt. And as you say, Seth's resisted making him "bigger than life" or the "star".
Cynic
@Zinfab
I also got the B5 vibe from that uprising scene. There was a shot of several women beating down a Moclan soldier on the ground that seemed to be a deliberate homage to the Narn beatdown of Lord Refa, which also featured an uplifting soundtrack (a scene well-remembered because it was shown weekly in Season 4's opening credits).
SlackerInc
It's an undeniable fact that this whole enterprise (no pun intended) exists basically because Seth McFarlane wanted to spare no expense to make himself a Star Trek captain, almost like the Jesse Plemons character on the Black Mirror episode "U.S.S. Callister". So it would be easy to imagine that being the weak point of the show, just the way many people are describing it.
Notwithstanding all that, I actually do really like him in the role. I don't know who they would have cast to play the character if he had been forced to stay behind the scenes as creator and showrunner. But it's hard for me to imagine someone doing it as well.
Dave in MN
I can't imagine anyone else as Captain Mercer. Seth does a great job!
Alan Roi
@SlackerInc
Actually I don't mind him in the role as Mercer either. However, the roles of showrunner, head writer, casting director, chief bottle & cook washer etc. (does anyone know if he wrote lyrics for the theme for extra royalties like Gened did?) might not have been the best idea for the show.
Gerontius
A classical series that, it seems to me, has some interesting parallels with how the Orville works, is one that is way outside the scifi genre. I'm thinking of Mash - there's the way it swings between comedy, often farcical comedy, and serious themes, and real issues, the way that the commanding officer is just one of the cast of characters. There's a war going on all right, but it's mostly background. And there is much the same sense of ethics in both Mash and The Orville, which is pretty well absent from so many series.
It doesn't measure up to Mash, but Mash had a lot longer to work itself in. Touch wood for The Orville.
SC
@Perry They take the show off the air for three weeks and wonder why the ratings drop. Stupid networks.
Alan Roi
@SC
Lots of shows go off for as long as 3 weeks during the season and their ratings don't dive.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Alan Roi
"Saying modern Trek can't compte with Orville is like saying a 4K 60" 2019 screen can't compete with a 20" 80s color TV."
An ironically fitting analogy.
NuTrek is all about flairs over substance and quantity over quality. It's bigger, flashier, faster and more bombastic. Just like a teenage jock who blasts his car radio with the biggest bass-heavy speakers he could find, and thinks that makes him a somebody.
Sorry, but "fancier" and "better" are two completely different things.
You know what's the most ironic thing here is? That the stories in the Orville, with all their cheese and occasional low-bow humor, still makes for a more coherent universe than the train-wreck called ST:Discovery.
As Jammer so aptly wrote yesterday:
"This series is a seriously dedicated piece of bananas, with a poker-faced tone that dares you to laugh at the lunacy of the plot."
Let's see if you guess what series he was referring to: The dead-serious current Star Trek prequel that deals with Spock and Captain Pike, or McFarlane's tongue-in-cheek show that has Seth himself as captain and fight scenes to the tune of Dolly Parton?
Trashbarg
Man, this show. I guess it was okay? With Orville it's always the same for me, whatever originality it has and whatever a really good ensemble tries to do it sort of always crumbles for me with it's slavish following of TNG/VOY/DS9 formulas. I loved each of those, but after 500+ eps of the same schtick I know all the beats by heart. Hell most of the VOY run I was really pissed off at the production for just faxing it in, then ENT killed me inside right out of the gate. IMO Orville needs liberation from these chains to truly become a great show, it's being dragged down by all the baggage.
Does anyone else find Union a bit opportunistic? It's one of the more interesting aspects to me. They seem real quick to admit peoples or try to ally with them for immediate gain, be it tech or ships. Perhaps this Moclan thing will be the engine of change for their foreign policy. Less Machiavellism, more idealism. I hope they continue to run with this theme.
P.S. First time poster, long time reader, yadda yadda, nice to meet you all. Wish all the boring Disco vs. Orville flames would stop, because they are boring and not very well argumented, and life is not a zero sum game.
Trent
Trashbarg said: "Does anyone else find Union a bit opportunistic?"
That's certainly what this episode is about. And characters have been bashing the Union's opportunistic relationship with the Moclans for some time now; they've turned a blind eye because they need Moclan technology.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Trashbrag
"Wish all the boring Disco vs. Orville flames would stop, because they are boring and not very well argumented, and life is not a zero sum game."
Flames are indeed silly, but why shouldn't we be allowed to compare the two shows? Especially when one of them perfectly captures the spirit of the classic Trek shows, and it *isn't* the official Star Trek show that's doing that?
You are perfectly right that this isn't a zero sum game. But it's not my fault that the Orville is doing precisely the kind of Trek-like morality tales that I've been waiting for in the last 15 years, while DSC feels to me like a punch to the face. It's not my fault that the Orville is doing so many things right (in my view) while DSC is doing so many things wrong.
I agree, though, that anybody who tries to turn this into some kind of war (or worse: into personal attacks against those who think differently) has a problem. These are just TV shows, for God's sake. And people should feel free to voice their opinions on these TV shows without it turning into some stupid bloody feud.
Alan Roi
@OmiconThetaDeltaPhi
You many have been waiting 15 years to pull out your 87 Zenith 20" to recapter 30 year old TV scifi the way it was made, 30 years ago for that antique. I've been waiting 30+ years to be able to see Star Trek in long form format like I imagined it would be if novels like Strangers From The Sky would actually be filmed and it looks like both of us have been rewarded for our patience. And yet for some reason you can't stop complaining. Go figure.
SlackerInc
@Gerontius, I love the parallel with M*A*S*H! Good call.
I've been arguing with someone on Twitter (who has never seen the show) about whether "The Orville" is a Star Trek parody. My contention is that it is not. It could be accused of being a Star Trek *ripoff*, but not a parody. It is a dramedy, or what used to be called comedy-drama. But it doesn't hold up Trek tropes for exaggeration or ridicule. The jokes are of a different nature than caricature of typical Trek characters or situations.
@SC: I don't think it was that dumb to put up a repeat of the big whiz-bang space battle episode last week. They probably could have played this one a week earlier, but it's good to give people multiple chances to get hooked in by that one.
Alan Roi
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
"Let's see if you guess what series he was referring to: The dead-serious current Star Trek prequel that deals with Spock and Captain Pike, or McFarlane's tongue-in-cheek show that has Seth himself as captain and fight scenes to the tune of Dolly Parton?"
Obviously your notion of where absurdity should be allowed and where it shouldn't is rather limited. i will offer the example of the Film Altered States, which I consider one of the best science fiction films ever made. It could fit Jammer's description of Discovery, as internally treats itself seriously. It is also tremendously mind-expanding in many ways. It offers new ways of looking at the subjects it tackles. It takes us to places we've never been. And it is utterly bananas, for sure. It crack the mold, as Discovery does, offering something new, if occasionally uncomforatable for the veiwer who is expected to find some way of interpreting what's being presented to him or her.
Now lets look at The Orville. Presenting new ways of looking at things is not its bailiwick. It's about reinforcing values the viewer already holds, just as Berman era Star Trek was about. Slapping a 40 year old song on an episode about women's rights is what The Orville is about. Its not offering anything new. Its offering the comfort of the traditional. No interpretation is needed. Its offering something the viewer already accepts. But is that really what you think science fiction in general and Star Trek in particular should be about?
trashbarg
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
By no means I'm against measuring the two shows against each other, what I'm against is entrenched war of attrition which persists, with sides rarely conceding anything. It's like World War 1 with all the fun sucked out of it. You see, for me both shows cut both ways, with stuff that I find really well executed and stuff that I rather dislike.
Discovery, I appreciate it moving away from what by the mid run of Voyager became corporate exploitation and filling in some blanks along the way, however it suffers from myriad of problems in execution, with the the biggest problem for me being the direction and editing which take after modern Marvel stuff which I hate. I mean I could go on and on, but I'll reserve that for Disco threads :D
Orville on the other hand gives me comforting format that I grew up with and a very capable ensemble, but it follows the old playbook rather too closely and it seems to me like a lot of the old Trek crew there on the production/writing side of things just fell into their old habits. I grew up with TNG, watched all the shows while they aired, then in countless reruns, know everything by heart and I know I want some of that "same old same old" but not quite the same "same old" if you catch my drift? I guess that's why I like that whole Klyden/Bortus thing so much, how many strained alien marriages we had the chance to observe at length? Not many!
In the end, I tune in every week for both shows, because potential is there and occasionally it shines through. I'm pretty interested in what will they become and wish them long runs to realise that potential. Also, both shows running in parallel offers a nice possibility to sort of revise and discuss a lot of aspects of Trek, without getting the knives out :D
Alan Roi
@Trashbag
There's nothing alien about Bortus' and Klyden's marraige. And that is the point.
Gerontius
I can't see that it makes too important a difference if I see a good story on a tablet or a monster screen. Maybe with some narrative which was a bit ropy it might make a difference, what with flashy special effects to make up for things which would look flashier on a big screen.
Trashberg comments about the way that the Union is a bit more "opportunistic" than in the Federation was in the real Star Trek times. To an extent that's true enough (though there were episodes when we saw another side to the Federation), and I think that's part of the Orville's concept - to take a bit of shine off Star Trek's vision, but preserve it's ethical stance, if just a little dented. (The essential point is, just because things are never going to be perfect that doesn't mean they couldn't be a great deal better.)
Trent
Alan said: "Its not offering anything new. Its offering the comfort of the traditional."
I don't think anybody would argue Orville is radically new and/or edgy SF. It's 90s Trek meets TOS meets a more prominent vein of Hollywood leftism. But as these types of tales are rare, not only in their own zeitgeist, but our own, this nevertheless makes it quite novel.
The idea that Discovery is "cutting edge" and "new" and "challenging values" is meanwhile laughable. This is bog-standard, bad, contemporary SF/fantasy TV writing, perfectly mimicking everything else on TV and film over the past decade or so. And its messages ("Racist Klingons are bad!") and values are a step below even 1960s Trek, all mostly unexplored and cynically tacked on as a obligation to the franchise.
Discovery is challenging absolutely nothing. Aesthetically, it kowtows to TV trends. Politically, it is several steps behind even Orville. Philosophically, it is inept. Narrative-wise, it is worse than what one would consider poor contemporary TV writing. Format-wise, its Victoria-era serialization is even more dated than the modernism of TOS.
More crucially, Disco learns the worst lessons from past Trek. If past Trek steadily degenerated into convoluted action spectacle, Disco pushes this logic to the extreme. Be honest. What is Disco but the last 2 seasons of Enterprise, with twice the budget? It's the same "mind-bending", time-hopping, serialized, genocide thwarting, action Trek as the last 2 seasons of Enterprise. Or a Voyager two-parter action episode stretched for 14 episodes.
So people don't bash Discovery because "it's too new and edgy and too advanced", they bash it because they romanticize Trek as a highbrow, iconoclastic, unique, countercultural thing, and what they got with this installment was yet another lowbrow, conformist, trashy and pandering thing. It is Michael Bay Trek, and you can feel the writers' souls dying every time they're made to obey the mandates of the producers above them ("Write me a plot that gets us to the future! And make it lead into our two new spin-offs!").
Who can honestly look at S1 of Discovery and say "MAN, THIS IS CUTTING EDGE STUFF! THESE KLINGONS offer SUCH A DEEP LOOK INTO THE SOCIO-ECONO-HISTORICAL CAUSES OF ALT-RIGHT, RACIST, WARMONGERS! THIS IS HOW YOU DO SERIALIZATION! WHAT A GRIPPING, NUANCED, DRAMATIC USE OF THE FORMAT! DISCOVERY TRULY IS THE VOICE OF OUR GENERATION!"
That's laughable.
Booming
@ Trent
" Narrative-wise, it is worse than what one would consider poor contemporary TV writing"
Hahaha come on. Have you watched TV lately and with that I mean during the last 60 years. :D
Alan Roi
@Trent
That's hysterical. Idiotically pretentious and suggests that you can't be bothered to watch a minute of it. But still very funny. You are definitely laughable.
Alan Roi
@Trent
That you apparently were only capable of receiving messages like this: "Racist Klingons are bad" demonstrates that you'd best be sticking to the simplistic 30 year old Star Trek for kiddies scifi.
Your posts are the Dunning-Kruger effect to a tee.
Trashbarg
Weren't Klingons droning about cultural preservation in face of Federation since like forever? From Kruge to Chang and onwards, forever dreading that moment when they'll feel the urge to settle down on some nice farm world with Federation flag waving in the wind above them.
1~
"They might have hang-ups about it, but they wouldn't be the same kind of hang-ups we have."
I actually didn't like Sanctuary, for that reason--the way the Moclans have been portrayed as one-dimensional misogynists this season seems like a retcon.
(Klyden in particular seems to geting exponentially more bigoted as the season progresses. Klyden had never displayed any overt hostility towards non-Moclan females until this episode, and how is Bortus's denunciation of him as an inverterate xenophobe supposed to square with him eating Rocky Road ice cream while swooning over "The Sound of Music"? And it makes Bortus's initial determination to stand by Klyden despite their differences just seem foolhardy.)
The analogy with misogynistic human cultures seems really strained, Moclan women aren't being denied a voice or standing, they're being forced to become men.
The writer's Bortus-y reaction to Parton was supposed to be funny I guess (I just found it corny) but it just seemed to cheapen the character. She's the greatest writer in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF HER PLANET. She not merely talented, she's a towering genius without equal. She's also a born iconoclast who was raised outside of Moclan society by her iconoclastic parents. How could she possibly be so parochial and incurious that she would have had never sought out another planet's artworks even once?
(Bortus's Rankin-Bass-inspired epiphany in About A Girl worked so because it was such a cleverly constructed multilayer gag--on it's face the idea that Bortus could be turned by a cartoon aimed at six-year-olds is ridiculous, so naturally only the comic-relief doofuses would even consider attempting it. But it works--becuase the ideas in the story are such common currency in Earth culture than only a child would be unfamiliar with them, but Bortus had had little exposure to Earth culture and had never encountered them before--and he suddenly understood that his crewmates ire wasn't just anti-Moclan prejudice but might have a serious philisophical justification.
And as an outsider to Earth culture, he could articulate that philosophy with a clarity and eloquence the Earthlings couldn't have themselves--they were so deeply embedded in their own assumptions that they had never even thought of stating their objections in those terms, the Moclan stance was just wrong and bad and that's all there was to it.)
I'm not sure how granting the colony autonomy is supposed to solve the problem--unless doing so nullifies the colonists' Moclan citizenship in the process then in effect it would just be one more Union planet that could offer them asylum, and it wouldn't stop the Moclan government from shutting down the "underground railroad", which was run by Moclans. So why not just offer the colonists asylum instead of gambling that the Union council will take a highly risky stand in the middle of fighting a war with a bunch of genocidal AIs?
About A Girl was a civil case between two parents, there was never any real question about asylum being granted if Bortus and Klyden had jointly asked for it. The colony was obviously far away from Moclan space so presumably the Moclans couldn't claim jurisdiction there, and if they tried to use force they'd be breaching the very Union charter thet were trying to claim protection under.
What is the future of the colony now that it has autonomy? Do Moclan females need males to procreate? If they do will the offspring have the usual Moclan sex ratio? (That could cause a few problems, to put it mildly.) If they don't, are we going to end up with a Moclan society split between two mutually hostile one-gender planets a la Vandread?
SC
@Alan Roi.
It would make more sense to air the show on the same day, in the same time slot, every week until all the episodes have aired. Like they do in the UK. Or they used to do, because many of the shows are on US time now (like The Orville.) However, some shows like Magnum P.I. are held back until there's enough episodes to air them without a break.
Gerontius
I've never understood the way "edgy" is seen as something to aim for, as if it was the same thing as battling the system.
If you're fighting the system you'd want to stand on solid ground, not show off balancing on the edge of a precipice where a gust could send you to ver. That kind of thing is just showing off.
Speculating about how Moclan procreation might work out would be liable to give you a headache. To start with, are there actually any differences between the "male" and "female" Moclans, other than the fact that the females look a little less thuggish and evidently prefer to wear skirts?
Ursula LeGuin put a more interesting variation on these things in The Left Hand of Darkness, with a planet where the people changed sex from time to time - the same idea crops up in James White's Sector General series.. ( And it actually occurs in some species on Earth.)
I noted 1-'s comment "The analogy with misogynistic human cultures seems really strained, Moclan women aren't being denied a voice or standing, they're being forced to become men." It occurred to me that's perhaps actually more relevant to some tendencies in Earth cultured that aspire to be non-misogynist.
Alan Roi
@SC
Sure it would be easier, but this isn't like the old days when if a show went on haitus we wouldn't know when the next new ep would appear unless we bought TV guide, and we'd only know that week. There are several sites which track release dates weeks and months ahead of time now.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Trent
"What is Disco but the last 2 seasons of Enterprise, with twice the budget?"
Enterprise, for all it's flaws, was - at the very least - a good Trekverse history lesson. It has the huge advantage of being set in one of the most interesting time periods of Trek history, and the writers (contrary to popular belief) made an actual effort to make it work as a prequel.
Could it have been better? Sure. It could have been much better, both as a TV show and as a prequel.
Was the level of storytelling down a notch from TOS/TNG/DS9? Perhaps.
Should they dropped all the rubbish "Temporal Cold War" plotline that cumulated with red-eyed alien Nazis? Definitely.
But I still maintain that Enterprise is a worthy addition to Trek lore. In fact, in some ways, it is my favorite Trek show.
I also maintain that the Xindi arc is a good 9/11 analogy. It wouldn't have worked as a 24th century story, but it was a perfect fit for the 22nd. In many ways, the Xindi arc serves as a "coming of age arc" for humanity itself, which I very much appreciated.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Alan Roi
"Obviously your notion of where absurdity should be allowed and where it shouldn't is rather limited. i will offer the example of the Film Altered States, which I consider one of the best science fiction films ever made. It could fit Jammer's description of Discovery, as internally treats itself seriously."
Well, it has been said that the dividing line between genius and crackpottery is often a thin one.
The problem is that this kind of reasoning can also be used to justify bad writing. Another problem is that Discovery is claiming to be a plot-oriented serial, not to mention a prequel to an established setting. Yes, with this type of show, I expect the plots to (a) make internal sense and (b) be respectful to the source material.
In short, it's not the kind of show that can afford going completely bananas.
"It crack the mold, as Discovery does, offering something new, if occasionally uncomforatable for the veiwer who is expected to find some way of interpreting what's being presented to him or her."
Name one way in which Discovery is "cracking the mold". Name one way in which that show is doing *anything* different, when compared to a typical current mainstream sci fi offering.
"Now lets look at The Orville. Presenting new ways of looking at things is not its bailiwick. It's about reinforcing values the viewer already holds, just as Berman era Star Trek was about."
Are you claiming that Berman Era Trek never caused people to question their prejudices? Because that's demonstrably false. The funny thing is, an episode doesn't even have to be particularly good to have this effect.
Take TNG's "The Outcast" for example. It's a pretty bad episode, but I've heard from more than one person that they're view of LGBT people have changed for the better after viewing it.
I'm willing to bet that Orville's "About a Girl" (a far better episode than "The Outcast") had the same kind of effect on many people. Or take, for example, "Majority Rule". I'm sure that at least some viewers stopped to think about the way they're judging others.
And yes, you are right that none of these things is ground-breakingly new. So? Are you saying that this cry for humanity and compassion should have an expiration date? Or that present day humanity is already so enlightened that we don't need these reminders anymore?
Of-course, if the Orville didn't tell compellingly fresh *stories* to accompany these time-tested themes, none of the above would have mattered. But the story-telling on the Orville is (usually) innovative and fresh.
"No interpretation is needed."
If that's what you think then you aren't a very attentive viewer of the show (or an attentive reader of the show's comments sections here).
Gerontius
I've never understood the way "edgy" is seen as something to aim for, as if it was the same thing as battling the system.
If you're fighting the system you'd want to stand on solid ground, not show off balancing on the edge of a precipice where a gust could send you to ver. That kind of thing is just showing off.
Speculating about how Moclan procreation might work out would be liable to give you a headache. To start with, are there actually any differences between the "male" and "female" Moclans, other than the fact that the females look a little less thuggish and evidently prefer to wear skirts?
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Alan Roi
"You many have been waiting 15 years to pull out your 87 Zenith 20" to recapter 30 year old TV scifi the way it was made, 30 years ago for that antique. I've been waiting 30+ years to be able to see Star Trek in long form format like I imagined it would be if novels like Strangers From The Sky would actually be filmed and it looks like both of us have been rewarded for our patience. And yet for some reason you can't stop complaining. Go figure."
Do you see me endlessly complaining about Discovery?
No.
The only thing I can't "stop complaining" about is this silly insistence of some people to turn a discussion into a war zone.
BTW having a discussion and giving my opinion on a show is not "complaining". Would you have liked it, if the people here told you to "stop complaining" just because your view of the Orville isn't favorable? Didn't think so. So please don't do this to others. Thank you.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Oh... and one more thing, Alan Roi.
Your constant attempts at ridiculing the Orville by comparing it to an antique TV set are kinda funny, considering how great the Orville actually looks and sounds on a top-notch modern TV set.
It's an absolute treat, seeing this classic kind of stories rendered so beautifully with modern production technology.
vbfbdfgfd
Alan Roi, how much does CBS pay you anyway? Good god, keep it in the STD comment sections at least.
Mitty
It's enough to drive you, crazy if you let it...
So much fun. God I love this show. It makes me feel young again.
Alan Roi
@Omicron
What ridiculing? It is the intention of the producers of Orville to recapture the exact look of an 80s scifi show with minimal updates in the VFX. The fact that its shot in HD doesn't change that intention. When cititscapes look like matte paintings that only drives that point home.
I do think that, at some point, likely far earlier in the show that TNG was, someone would have asked at some point a particular question that Orville so far has refused to ask about the Moclans. And that is: Why have the engaged in the social engineering they have such as Trek has with many of its alien species, most notably Vulcans which I personally compare the Moclans more to, as they too excercise supression as a tool of control. And this is where I think the Orville in general and this episode in particular falls down hard.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Alan Roi
"It is the intention of the producers of Orville to recapture the exact look of an 80s scifi show with minimal updates in the VFX... When cititscapes look like matte paintings that only drives that point home."
Since you *have* seen the show, I conclude that you are just trolling at this point.
"I do think that, at some point, likely far earlier in the show that TNG was, someone would have asked at some point a particular question that Orville so far has refused to ask about the Moclans. And that is: Why have the engaged in the social engineering they have such as Trek has with many of its alien species, most notably Vulcans which I personally compare the Moclans more to, as they too excercise supression as a tool of control. And this is where I think the Orville in general and this episode in particular falls down hard."
Another non sequitur.
Please come back when you are willing to have an actual honest discussion.
Gerontius
I can't understand that last bit, Alan. I mean I can't understand what the question is.
One way or another, "suppression" is a pretty common element in pretty well all societies in the real world. So is social engineering of one kind or another.
Alan Roi
@Omicron
Here's a question for you: Why doyou think no one one one the show ever wondered why Moclans society is the way it is? Do you ever wonder why they are the way they are?
SlackerInc
I was initially going to say I vigorously cosigned Trent's virtuosic post. But I share OTDP's disagreement about "Enterprise". OTDP made some other great points as well.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Yes, I sometimes wonder about it.
As of this time, there is no canonical answer to this question. How is this a problem? Do you always expect shows to provide a complete historical background about everything depicted in them, during their first two seasons?
Gerontius
Why do kangaroos have pouches? Why don't rabbits eat meat? No doubt there are reasons you could postulate, but you don't generally ask those questions.
Trent
Alan said: "Why do you think no one one one the show ever wondered why Moclans society is the way it is? Do you ever wonder why they are the way they are? "
Several episodes have implied that the harsh conditions on the Moclan home world led to evolutionary and social changes. Their bodies became stronger, their digestive system less finicky, and they began to glorify strength and hyper-masculinity, traits which helped them survive. In one episode, one character outright says that humans would behave as Moclans do, if it facilitated survival on a harsh, desert world.
There's an interesting branch of anthropology that believes that gender roles and societies are shaped by their agricultural past and tools, which are themselves shaped by climate (cultures which used smaller tools, rather than animal driven ploughs, for example, have greater gender equality, as more women participated in manual work). Like human desert societies influenced various cultures, I'd imagine Moclan's brutal landscape similarly led to its norms.
Omicron said: "But I still maintain that Enterprise is a worthy addition to Trek lore. In fact, in some ways, it is my favorite Trek show. I also maintain that the Xindi arc is a good 9/11 analogy."
I think you've actually inspired me to re-watch S3 and 4 starting tonight. It's been a long time since I last watched. I hold you accountable for any distress that may befall.
Omicron said: "Take TNG's "The Outcast" for example. It's a pretty bad episode"
You don't even like the tone and direction of the episode? I can understand bashing it on thematic grounds, but I thought the muted, subdued tone was great. It's all such gripping, quiet conversation.
Gerontius said: "To start with, are there actually any differences between the "male" and [...] "
I always assumed the Moclans were some kind of hermaphrodite race, where the males can fertilize one another. This would (I assume) require each male to have "male" and "female" stuff (sperm and ovaries?).
Maybe they even started off with biparental reproduction, but the harsh conditions on their planet made them change over time. Like frogs change sex to survive harsh conditions (sequential hermaphrodites, born one sex but shifting to another as need be), evolutionary pressures maybe selected for mutable males, or males with both sex organs.
I'd assume that females could reproduce as well. If its a hermaphrodite race, you'd think everyone would possess the same sex organs. Or - more interestingly - maybe the females are a byproduct of a evolutionary dead end. The males literally have no use for weak females*, because the males are so altered, so evolved, that their junk is now only compatible with other males and...oh god, I can't believe I'm typing this stuff.
*I don't mean to imply that women are weak, but in many species, pregnancy and carrying young takes a toll on the body. Females are more physically vulnerable when carrying a child/egg. On the Moclan homeworld, this may have been deemed a hindrance.
Gerontius
The real anomaly with the Moclans is the way that they are described as being male. The crucial factor for defining the females in a species is the ability to give birth. If you lay an egg, you are a female by definition. It doesn't make any difference that Bortus is big and tough and bad tempered and generally blokish, "he" is biologically female.
Maybe Maclons are hermaphrodite, being both male and female, which does occur in some species on Earth, and most of them have what are regarded as male secondary characteristics, and a few have what are regarded as female secondary characteristics.
It all doesn't stand up too well to examination - but it makes for interesting stories.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Trent
"I hold you accountable for any distress that may befall."
I see you haven't read the small print: "Omicron will not be held accountable for any distress that may befall you while watching Enterprise". ;-)
Proceed at your own risk.
Also, if you're rewatching season 3, you should start with the season 2 finale "The Expanse" which sets the whole Xindi thing up.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Trent
"I don't mean to imply that women are weak, but in many species, pregnancy and carrying young takes a toll on the body. Females are more physically vulnerable when carrying a child/egg. On the Moclan homeworld, this may have been deemed a hindrance."
I've heard the theory that the main difference between the "male" and "female" Moclans is that a female would give birth the usual (human) way, while the male would lay eggs.
I like this theory very much, because it resolves most of the apparent inconsistencies of Moclan biology.
To this I'll add my own observation that the egg-laying thing was probably a later development. The combination of the dangers of pregnancy and the harsh Moclan environment (the last bit established in canon) could have lead to this safer alternative path for reproduction.
This could have happened either as product of natural evolution, or as a product of a deliberate effort by the Moclans to re-engineer their species.
Dave in MN
I was reading the Orville wiki and apparently Moclans born biologically female have centered spots, males have them on the sides (a detail I never noticed before now).
I'm going up have to rewatch the episodes with crowd scenes with Moclans at some point.... it'd be interesting to see the if there's a detectable minority in the population (vs it being a very rare genetic trait).
Booming
I want to chime in here and say that under harsh conditions especially desert like enviroements species normally become smaller and physically weaker to conserve energy.
And the desire to control women by men in ancient societies is really hard to pinpoint because human societies are extremely divers. The desire to control female sexuality has often to do with inheritance. That is why a woman with an active sexlife is often disrespected by society even to this day.
But there is no way to falsify theories because we cannot ask people from the lets say ancient greece: Hey, why did you treat women like slaves?" so everything is possible.
There is an audiobook about normal people on audible: something like "the life on the other side of history". It is a lecture done by a professor. really interesting
Alan Roi
@Gerontious
Actually I do ask why Kangaroo's have pouches (they do to protect and feed their young who are born at a much earlier state of growth than other mammals) and find it interesting that rabbits do practice cannibalism at times.
Does the fact that Kangaroos have pouches create political divisions in a greater political union? Does the fact that rabbits generally are herbivores do the same thing.
Does the Union have no zeno-anthropologists who might be able to help out in crises like this instead of relying on a bunch of admirals and our Captain of a midrange ship who is for some reason inserting himself in a situation which is well above his paygrade and known skillset again?
Alan Roi
@Booming
Interesting enough, one of my theories is that Moclans got rid of females to reduce the competition, violence and overall resource cost of the competition for pure females among their society through genetic engineering and/or selective breeding laws. I do wish that The Orville would throw in some science here, but that's not what the show is interested in regarding their biology or culture.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Alan Roi
Not sure what your point of criticism here is.
Are you seriously suggesting that an anthropologist would better at dealing with the crisis that was presented in the episode? When there's a conflict between nations/factions on earth, do we send for an anthropologist or for a mediator?
I also find it funny that you're giving these non-issues as serious points-of-failure for the Orville, yet you maintain that Discovery's complete mess is somehow super-smart and super-demanding of the audience. Double standard, much?
Alan Roi
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
By all means, send for a mediator. So, why didn't they do that in this situation? And by mediator, I mean, someone who knows anything about Moclan culture, not just a captain of a middling star ship who can't offer much other than snide asides when in council.
A failure to try to figure out anything to do with the Moclan's other than complain is a failure, IMO, by the TNG standards many praise this show for upholding. But sure, if you can't defend your show's shortcomings, attack a different one.
Dave in MN
No one in the fandom had a problem with Trek captains/officers arbitrating legal proceedings that would have galactic ramifications. In a Federation with trillions of citizens, Picard/Riker and Janeway/Tuvok obviously would not be the most qualified to debate AI rights ... despite that, those episodes are praised highly by most fans (rightly so, IMHO).
That'd part of the trade-off when you're watching episodic TV.
I'm willing to grant this show the same latitude, but I can only speak for myself, of course.
PS- I also don't see how this episode would've worked out logistically or dramatically if they also would have introduced and fleshed out a mediator character (while sidelining Mercer from the plot).
Gerontius
Drastically simplifying events is an inevitable and necessary part of narratives about wars and political events. That's obviously the case when it comes to TV dramas, but it's true of massive epics with hundreds of characters. We ffocus on a few people to guide us through a story.
The president doesn't interact with hundreds of people, but with a handful who are around long enough for us to get to know them. The world changing scientific invention doesn't come from hundreds of people working all over the place, it's a single genius with a couple of helpers. And so on.
It's possible to have stories which are just about a few people, and even have them happen to play a bit part in a big event once in their lifetime. But that's a different sort of thing, and it wouldn't make a very good TV series.
Yair
@Omicron,
The Xindi arc isn't just a 9/11 analogy. The Xindi Council is a dark mirror of the Federation created by an enemy, making it one of the more interesting villains. Several entirely different races coming together, sounds like the Federation, right? But the members are led almost entirely by fear and distrust (not always unjustified). Fear of mutual annihilation leads them to create the Council, fear of destruction leads them to attack Earth preemptively and prematurely, fear and distrust leads them to break the Council.
The Council is how the Federation would be like if it were constructed solely to solve the security dilemma - preventing a war between the Andorians and Vulcans, stopping either from fearing Earth's rise, and keeping the Romulans out - without having any higher purpose to go along with that. Eventually the members realize the biggest threats left are each other and nature does its course, especially if there's some manipulation "helping" from outside.
Perhaps the Sphere Builders did not understand the Federation. Or maybe they did and decided not to risk creating a possible rival to themselves in the Xindi.
ENT S3 had the possibility to become a classic season if only the writers took more care rather than treating it almost as a sidestory. *Sigh*
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Dave
"Picard/Riker and Janeway/Tuvok obviously would not be the most qualified to debate AI rights ... despite that, those episodes are praised highly by most fans (rightly so, IMHO)"
The Picard/Riker thing is especially ludicrous, given that they have a personal relationship with the person whose status was being decided. The excuse that it's a new JAG office and "procedure" requires the two highest-ranking officers to serve as defense and prosecution attorneys respectively, does not make it any more credible.
I mean, "Measure of a Man" is indeed rightly praised for being a great episode, but that part of the story makes no f***-ing sense what-so-ever.
@Alan Roi
"By all means, send for a mediator. And by mediator, I mean, someone who knows anything about Moclan culture, not just a captain of a middling star ship who can't offer much other than snide asides when in council."
I don't recall Captain Mercer being sent as to serve as a mediator. He was just invited to the council's proceedings, probably because he was the officer that sent the request for that meeting.
The episode also explicitly stated that the council had to vote on whether to accept the captain's request for a hearing. The procedure here seems quite straight-forward:
(1) Any captain may recommend accepting a new planet to the Union.
(2) The PU Council holds a quick preliminary vote to decides whether this recommendation is worthy of consideration (with over 3000 captains in the fleet, I'm guessing that the vast majority of these recommendations are denied at this stage).
(3) If they voted "yes" on #2, the extensive deliberations we've seen in the episode begin. Among the people who are invited as guests to these deliberations are the highest ranking admirals and the captain who made the original recommendation.
(4) Neither the admirals nor said captain has ANY power in making the final decision. The episode explicitly told us that the council was "still deliberating" at the time that Mercer and the Admirals had their chat.
Simple enough.
"But sure, if you can't defend your show's shortcomings, attack a different one."
I actually wasn't attacking Discovery in that post. I was simply objecting to your double standard. You're nitpicking one show to death (even at points where such nitpicking is factually wrong), yet you accept without question another show's glaring holes in plot logic with the excuse that they have some ingenious master plan.
I also find it interesting that you're objecting to Captain's Mercer relatively minor participation in an episode where many different things are happening in many different places (most of which have nothing to do with Mercer), yet you have no problem with Burnham being the center of the entire universe on Discovery.
Again, this is not an attack on Discovery itself. I'm simply pointing out your inconsistency.
BTW notice that the people here are very open in their responses to your points. You don't see anybody here resorting to bombastic claims about the Orville having some hidden ingenious master plan and then adamantly refuse to tell you what that master plan actually *is*. Both the show's strengths and the show's flaws are out there in the open where we can discuss them.
@Yair
"ENT S3 had the possibility to become a classic season if only the writers took more care rather than treating it almost as a sidestory. *Sigh* "
This could really be said about the entire show.
I mean, I like Enterprise very much, but the show *is* one huge missed opportunity. It could have been have been a great Trek show. But it ended up just being an okay Trek show set in a great time period.
Season 4, though, is classic Trek (awful finale not withstanding).
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
(sorry, but I forgot to add this to my previous post)
@Dave
When you refered to Janeway and Tuvok debating AI rights, what episode did you have in mind?
Dave in MN
@ Omicron
Author, Author.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thanks.
Jack
I’m hoping Klyden is more complex than he seems, beyond just self-righteous closet case. I just wish he was a bit more layered and likeable.
SlackerInc
@Jack: Fair point, but I don't think we're going to get any more than that. Some people are like that! We see them on the news every day.
@Alan Roi: I agree with OTDP that it's a glaring double standard.
Booming
@ Yair
Sorry you triggered me. :D
If you are a realist (in political science) then you believe that it is impossible to solve the security dilemma and even allied people will sooner or later start fighting each other because of it. realists believe that the world is a zero sum game and to advance your own position somebody else has to lose. A Federation like in Star Trek would be impossible. That is also the reason why the EU makes realists go crazy because it shouldn't exist.
If you believe that a Federation is possible then you are a Liberal (in the political sciences, I don't mean the American party)
If you are a liberal (intergovermentalist) the other big school of international relations then you believe that through the creation of shared institutions you (very simply put) solve the security dilemma. Neoliberals (or liberal intergovermentalists) believe in absolute gains. I'm a liberal intergovermentalist. ;)
Why? The world economy is growing as a whole every year which is another way of saying: the world is producing absolute gains. Or a company like airbus could not be maintained by just one country like Germany or France. It could only become what it is through European cooperation.
For example Obama was an liberal intergovermentalist (gaining lasting peace through institutions, an important term in the international relations) while Trump is a very inconsistent classical realist. (classical realism is the earliest form of that school of thought).
Sorry for boring you guys but I'm sitting at home waiting for the cable guy... I'm using a handy hotspot to write this. :(
Yair
@Booming,
Wouldn't a defensive realist also be fine theoretically with a Federation existing indefinitely? And even offensive realists could expect Federations to survive for some time.
Me, I'm just an inconsistent "whatever works" regarding IR. 'Realists' ignore entire dynamics by focusing too much on states and power while constructivists (IIRC that's the IR term) often assume norms that don't really exist or have much less power than they assume. A Federation can survive and function, but it needs a bit of "something else" to hold its members together or it eventually dissolves (eventually possibly taking quiet some time). "something else" being a bit hard to elucidate - maybe a shared unique ideal, maybe some special asabiyyah, but I'm sure it's not just raw power balance alone.
I actually had the EU half-in-mind as an entity which doesn't have that "something else", at least not *yet*, but didn't want to open that can of worms. Then you happily dropped by... When it comes down to it, quiet a lot of its internal messaging is 'we have to come together so those other big players don't decide everything for us' (external threat + will to power), and there's a level of internal selfish behaviour which would be a lot harder in a true Federation. It could go either way.
As for the US, you describe Trump accurately, but I'm unsure whether Obama was a 'liberal intergovermentalist' (as you put it) or used institutions as another carrot/stick. Constructivism requires shared norms and it's unclear how much they affected his administration.
Yair
When I write "it [the EU] could go either way" maybe I should have also detailed that some institutions do seem to try to create something beyond simple cooperation or even "just" pooling of sovereignty. But the general direction is still unclear to me.
Gerontius
In spite of its name it seems clear that the Federation is not imagined as being a federation so much as a Confederation. The same definitely appears to be the case with The Union in The Orville universe, and the same is true of the EU. In fact it seems likely that it would be truer to talk of the Orville's Union more as an Alliance, closer to something like Nato than to Federal states like the USA or Germany.
Booming
@Yair
If you mean the IR school of thought that Wendt created then that is one of the smaller schools, like idealism (very old) or marxist theory. It is also a little hard to grasp what constructivists want to say. As you pointed out. It is kind of the hippie theory ;)
I'm mostly familiar with the main branches of realism classical and Neorealism.
Realists, and that is one of the main problems with them, see the state as a black box. They completely ignore the inner workings of a country.
In liberal intergovermentalism or neoliberalism created in huge parts by Keohane Important are so called spillover effects and the three forms of institutions.
But this starts to sound like a seminar.
About the EU. Sure could go either way because something like it never existed before. I also kind of disagree with your opinion that the EU was created as a purely utalitarian construct. It certainly had more to do with ww2 and the wish to avoid that in the future.
Yeah Trump has really revived classical realism. Obama is for all intents and purposes a liberal intergovermentalist. He tried to create insitutions and sometimes succeeded. Even though Trump has undone most of it (Iran deal, TPP).
Strangely enough he made this new nafta deal which is almost identical to the old one.
The Republicans are a radical bunch these days and now the Democrats are starting to heat up, too...
Maybe it will all be allright. :)
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Why are we having a political discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with the episode?
Yair
@Booming,
Well, all these terms do shift a lot. I still don't quiet understand what 'neoliberal' means. Everyone seem to be using it with a different meaning. At the moment, my working assumption is that 'neoliberal' means just about everything ever, simultaneously describing every country on the planet that exists or ever was. Also all of the entities ever described in Star Trek, including sentient nanobots and non-corporeal energy being. But we seem to understand one another and that's enough.
As for the EU, I described how it's sold to its own people, based on my readings of its proponents arguments (e.g. Habermas). I did neglect to mention the 'avoid WW2' argument which is also quiet common but yet another form of a security dilemma which in my opinion is not enough to hold by itself.
As for Trump and Obama - IMHO, the revival of classical realism has as much to do with China's increasing power and Russian aggressiveness as with Trump. Obama's the TPP was meant to contain another state (China) and could just as easily be interpreted as a realist play. The Iran Deal was more of a special exception for Iran, but going into details would derail the conversation here ever more than this post. The Paris deal was started by others and isn't binding enough (I'd have loved a carbon tax, national or international, the trade schemes are too complicated and too prone to bad incentives).
Yair
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi,
Ouch you're right (didn't see your post before I hit submit). I'll cut it out.
Gerontius
"Why are we having a political discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with the episode?"
Thread drift, waiting for Jammer to chip in with his review - and of course, the next episode.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Oh, you mean like that 100+ comments debate on religion that I too participated in a few months ago?
Got it. ;-)
Greg M
So we get 2 4.5 star reviews in a row. Is Jammer turning around his feelings about Orville as a whole? I'm a little surprised and a little impressed.
Perry Plotkin
It's hard to know Jammer's final score even if he says that the episode was well excuted. I bet he put 3.8 score and yet it's 3 1/2 stars.
He pointed out the dyfuctional marriage with Bortus and Klyden. I thought that was brilliantly executed and that helps writers to carry on that drama. I expect more of that and shakeups in the fleet.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Greg M.
("Greg M"? Are you Gordon Malloy's ancestor and Laura's boyfriend, by any chance?)
"So we get 2 3.5 star reviews in a row. Is Jammer turning around his feelings about Orville as a whole?"
I think it's more of Jammer believing the Orville is improving. I don't think his view of the previous episodes has changed.
Anyway, I'm not really surprised he gave this one a high score. It wasn't just a good episode. It was an episode that was good in exactly the ways that Jammer tends to appreciate.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Funny think I've just thought about:
This the second time this season Kelly and Bortus are on a planet together playing Rambo. See, that's what happens when you give weapons to Gilliac trash.
Greg M
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
No, but I like the thought.
SC
The last two episodes have earned a 3.5 from Jammer! I know it's like comparing apples and oranges, but in comparison, Discovery has received 2/4.
Yet, The Orville hasn't been renewed yet.
Gerontius
I rather doubt that the people at Fox give much thought to any considerations about the quality of shows they put out. I assume it's just about numbers. I'll be very agreeably surprised if they go for continuing after this season. It'll be a crying shame if they don't.
Dave in MN
@ Gerontius
You forget the power Seth has. The Cleveland Show shouldn't have lasted past it's first season, but it survived in a comfy time slot for 4 years. FOX (pre-Disney) gives Seth a lot of latitude.
If I were Seth, I'd say either renew the Orville/ let me shop it around to Netflix/etc OR I'm not doing Family Guy or Cosmos or anything else with you anymore.
Artymiss
I loved this episode.
But I think Bortus needs to buy Klyden a one way ticket back to Moclan. (The problem here is who gets custody of Topa...)
SlackerInc
Good review, Jammer.
@OTDP: "See, that's what happens when you give weapons to Gilliac trash."
LMAO! Good one.
Black winter day
Hi, Jammer. The 2 moclans smuggling the baby initially lied to Bortus, claiming that they are taking her to Retepsia, hiding the fact that the female colony exists.
4Q2
Trekkiest episode yet.
Directed by Riker
Troi is a teacher
Klingon lawyer from DS9 (Rules of Engagement) as a Union admiral
Evil fresh-stretching Son'A from Insurrection as the council leader
Fukkin KURN!!!!!!!!
Geek ahoy!
Gq1
"Well, all these terms do shift a lot. I still don't quiet understand what 'neoliberal' means. Everyone seem to be using it with a different meaning."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
Booming
@Gq1
In international relations (a field of political science) neoliberalism is about how and why states interact the way they do. It has no connection to the economic theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism_(international_relations)
Leif
Dpesnt anyone else wish this show was more serious sci fi with more strange new worlds and aliens like Discovery is sometimes or TNG instead of Trek Parody or Commentary Goofy Lite?
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Leif
I'm fine with the Orville the way it is.
I *do* wish, though, for a harder sci fi show which incorporates the Classic Trek spirit. A show that would show us a universe full of wonders, while also giving us the feel of a realistic vessel in a realistic future.
In short, it would be cool to combine the Trek spirit of the Orville with the realistic feel of the Expanse. :-)
Yanks
"When the fight breaks out, it's scored to "9 to 5." To my surprise, this proves extremely effective. It manages to bring a unique, madcap energy to what could've been routine, even implausible, action; it feels simultaneously ironic, refreshing, inventive, and fun. It's the payoff done as an "Orvillian moment." And by the time it happens, this weirdly counter-intuitive release of tension has been earned thanks to the sincerity and stakes borne out by the rest of the episode's polemics. It's a tonal incongruity that speaks to what this show has established itself to be — and so therefore completely consistent."
Wow Jammer, that's a bit of poetry right there bud. I couldn't dream of illuminating something like that. Bravo.
Great review.
Gerontius
I hope that, if The Orville is able to continue after this season, it will steer well clear of getting more like The Expanse.
Any greater realism in The Expanse lies in the fact that it's technology and the human environment involved is a lot more plausible than that of The Orville which is a lot closer to magic people are a lot nastier than they generally are in The Orville or classic Star Trek. Too, but I don't accept that that is necessarily more realistic.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
@Gerontius
I was referring to the science/tech and the world building.
As you said yourself, people being nasty is not necessarily a mark of realism, so I'm not sure how you got to that from my comment. The Orville actually does an excellent job showing us realistic social dynamics in a post-scarcity world. I wouldn't change a thing on that front.
I just wish we had a similarly themed show that lies on the harder end of the Sci Fi Hardness scale. That's what I've meant, when I mentioned the Expanse. It would have been nice to have a show that has the best of both worlds.
Eastwest101
I loved The Orville and it's whacky indulgent and slightly unbalanced workplace comedy feel right from the start, and it looks like Jammer and some other people are coming around.
Some of the comments re comparisons with MASH are surprisingly illuminating, although I"m not a MASH fan or expert myself.
It's Seth's "love letter" to the Trek universe but still quite surprising how much heart shines through, the juxtaposition of Dolly Parton music over a routine hand to hand combat scene was inspired.
Thank God for Seth showing us that Sci Fi can be "fun" - something that only a few Trek episodes and Red Dwarf and maybe some Dr Who have pulled off,
SJU
Love the Moclans and the song.
Matthew Martin
Loved this one.
Shout out to the great F Murray Abraham and all the other Trek alums, including writer and director.
Booming
Let me start this with the negative and I know I sound like this Roman senator that ended every speech with the demand that Carthage should be destroyed but by god Seth Macfarlane cannot act. The problem with this is that this becomes more noticeable the better the episode is and then he also gives himself these center stage moments like in the Council when he mentioned that there might be only female Moclans left. The is almost a meta moment when MacMercer doesn't get it when the Admiral says that stuff about communication problem and the reaction of the admiral to me seemed equally about the stupidity of Mercer and Macfarlane's terrible acting.
Man, lots of cameos in this one, phew. Are these people doing this for free??? Ted Danson, F. Murray Abraham, Marina Sirtis. That would cost quite a penny otherwise and they don't even have important roles?!
To the actual episode. I didn't like it as much as Jammer did (Haven't read his review yet). It is a good episode but it has some structural flaws and left me with several questions.
- What rules does the Union have? MacMercer makes the argument that if they don't protect the women then what are they fighting for but they let Moclans join and those guys made no real secret out of their sex changing ways.
- We don't know anything about the other planets but building only weapons on a planet that is the furthest away from whatever the Union believes in ergo the most likely to leave seems like very bad planning.
- What happened after the Moclan shuttles landed? When we first see the women colony they have quite a few armed guards but we are presented with a situation where the Moclan soldiers already transport the inhabitants off. Did they kill the guards?
- The Dolly Parton song battlescenes only worked for a few moments when I thought, man it would be awesome if the Orville is destroyed when this song plays. Isn't that song basically about normal people (and especially women) slaving away while the rich take all the profits. It is a weird choice in a show that was made because a super rich guy wants to life out a childhood fantasy.
- Lot of messages. Is this about misogyny? transpeople? genital mutilation? I'm not sure.
- I liked the camera work in some of the earlier scenes but disliked it during the hand to hand combat scenes.
- Apart from the Dolly part the music was pretty good, not too bombastic as in some earlier episodes.
- It is a weakness of this show that all relevant Human culture seems to have happened between 1950 and 2010 in the USA. To quote Tahani from the Good place:" Everything else was utter tosh!"
- How long can these two Moclan guys stay together? That relationship seems beyond dysfunctional. They say so hurtful stuff at times.
- Didn't the female Moclan from that earlier episode live in a cave on Moclus but now she is the leader of this colony that exists for decades???
Overall I liked it and it was nice that they revisiting stuff even though the whole society forces people to have a sex change still sounds a little tucker carlsonish.
It plugged on my heartstrings a few times, especially the last scene.
But I liked the episode before this more.
Jason R.
"Man, lots of cameos in this one, phew. Are these people doing this for free??? Ted Danson, F. Murray Abraham, Marina Sirtis. That would cost quite a penny otherwise and they don't even have important roles?!"
It's a credit to MacFarlane that so many big name celebs seem willing to make random cameos on his various productions. I can only assume the guy is just incredibly likeable.
CaptainMercer
@Boomer
"What rules does the Union have? MacMercer makes the argument that if they don't protect the women then what are they fighting for but they let Moclans join and those guys made no real secret out of their sex changing ways."
Did you watch the series of the episode?
EVERYONE was told that the Moclans were an all-male species. That the chances of being female were infinitely small. That's what the government of Moclans had everyone believe, even their own people. In that rare instance where a female is born born once every 75 years and in that case they alter them. I would not call that "no real secret"
Booming
@Mercer
I have watched the presi debate yesterday and might still feel a little dizzy but are you saying that they kept a tight lid on the secret that around 50%? of society undergoes a sex change? Here I can make the standard sentence about conspiracies: "Too complex to be kept secret"
What would that mean:
- A gigantic amount of sexchange operations. Let's say the Moclans have around as many people and offspring as Humans today. That would mean 130 million children ergo 65 million sex changes per year or around 178.000 per day.
- There would be hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of doctors and nurses involved. They would all know the truth.
- It seems like the people who had a sex change all know it and they also occasionally talk about it. Does nobody ever wonder:" Man/Woman I constantly meet other former women?!!"
- The societal costs must be endless. The doctors and nurses, die administration, materials, facilities. These cost would be gigantic. So everybody involved with the Moclan budget would also know.
- Why would a society even start with all this considering the gigantic costs. There must have been a gigantic effort by the state to start all this. Again it's almost 200000 operations a day!!!
And so on and so on. A "secret" like this would be impossible to keep.
MercerCreate
@Booming
I would say that your hypothetical is flawed because most Moclans born are actually male. And that is ok because with eggs they can still reproduce. What I'm saying is that the government of Moclus has been lying in order to make it seem like the society is ALL male.. or very much as close to it as possible, releasing figures as stated in the cold open of S1E3 that there is a female born once every 75 years.. and they gotta do this for a reason.. and that is because they know that the chances of a female being born is actually greater.. not 50% like it is here, but greater.. and we have no idea what kind of lifestyle the citizens have but we get the impression form the industrialized society, and harsh conditions that not only are the citizens used to a tighter leash from the government but they believe that it makes sense for only males to be born in this society. So Haveena said that there are more females born than the government will admit, that doens't mean 50%. It also doesn't mean that Moclans that brood their eggs on Moclus would have this process more closely monitored on the homeworld, and and maybe there are ways for the doctors to tell before it hatches if it is female.. or even if a female hatches and it IS a female they people are simply told (indoctrinated) with the belief that this is a terrible defect with their child and the "unspecified" correction procedure conducted by the state will assure normalcy. The secret was impossible to keep, as we have seen.. but it was kept for a while as the stigma behind having females was so strong (think about Christianity here and its stigmas) and think about the fact that the society probably wanted its citizens to test the egg itself regularly and if the eggs have some kind of small genetic "abnormality' then a doctor would come in and fix it (that abnormality would indicate that it would eventually hatch as female). See a government can control a society not through force but through stigma and belief. Haveena had been working this problem for some time making a dozen trips to the Sanctuary, creating her own version of an underground railroad, yet the population of the Sanctuary is rather small.
I think it's not perfect, but as a kind of 90s Trek kind of story.. it holds up pretty well .. and i'm glad this and other Orville episodes have so much substance without being heavy handed. This show is a gift
CaptainMercer
@ Boomer Because of the environment of the planet and the pollution I believe the society is still mostly male.. maybe as much as 85%
Booming
@Mercers
Still all this would mean tens of thousands of operations every day. Let's just agree that Star Trek had it's logic gaps and the Orville often is a few steps less sophisticated. It is probably better to not overanalyze this. I also find the message slightly confusing.
Suppressing women is bad?
Forced sex change is bad?
refugees something??
CaptainMercer
The series is pro woman which is why the episode "About a Girl" exists to show the value of allowing women to exist in a predominently male society. But "Sanctuary" brings up some of the reasons (including mutilation) this is important.. andyou should KNOW these are the themes that STAR TREK is all about.. that's the POINT. Haveena said below (BTW one of my favorite female characters now)
It is with hope and pride
that I stand here today
as a voice for those who
have been voiceless for so long.
It is true that we have been
living in exile,
outside of the laws
of our native planet,
but to do otherwise
would invite persecution, mutilation
and even extinction.
If our plea to be recognized
as an independent state fails,
I fear that our voices
will be silenced forever.
As I look upon all
of the exquisite diversity
in this great hall,
I am reminded
that most of us share
something in common.
Over the course of history,
there have been people
on nearly every planet who were,
at one time or another, oppressed...
by those who were stronger...
or greater in numbers...
for reasons that now seem
insignificant to us.
The history of moral progress
can be measured by the expansion
of fundamental rights
to those who have been denied them.
We ask only to be included
in that expanding circle of justice.
I'm sorry. but this is what STAR TREK is all about.. this episode is the best Star Trek episode to have come out in YEARS, and it doesn't matter if it has the IP and logo attached to it. This is Star Trek story that all the series have been dancing around doing and never quite did it.
CaptainMercer
And what is Great is that Haveena's argument is not the only valid one. Tony Todd's character - who says that this is all a violation of their ways for a child trafficking operation, is not wrong. and the admirals talking about the diplomatic ramifications that make it more complex than even already-difficult human rights issue, seal the deal that this episode has so much depth to it, yet is not afraid to have spirited humor and adventure that this series is so great at doing
Booming
It is an ok show the problem is that it hasn't decided what it really wants to be, serious sci fi with comedic elements or a silly comedy with sci fi elements. It seems to gravitate towards serious sci fi though which I'm all for. Season 3 will be the make or break season.
CaptainMercer
I love it how it is.
like 90s Trek it is lightly serialized, but also episodic. It's like watching "new reruns" of a favorite show, and the freshness comes from the new crew and the little details. But the old formulas (cultural contamination, alien of the week, morality plays, intercrew drama) were all valid stories and we have had a twenty year break form this style of storytelling. Glad to see it back. There are plenty of "new" shows.. new ideas and I credit streaming with that. Go enjoy them I'll enjoy this great take on an old pleasure... just like people think it's a bold new idea when a new character with superpowers has a new and different logo on their chest but still are just copies of Superman
CaptainMercer
Haveena: "We will rise, one small victory at a time."
Kelly: "I believe you will."
Man.. makes me miss the 90s when STAR TREK would end many episodes with the encouraging lines like "I believe you will"
Thank you for bringing Star Trek back, Seth
Dave in MN
This show is WAY better on rewatch (which I've been slowly doing over the last few months). Even the episodes I liked the least ("All...Cake" "Blood of Patriots") resonate more.
William B
Good, and I like the use of Dolly Parton's feminist anthem, though I think it would have been more effective if mentioned a bit less frequently. The Bortus and Klyden battle for Topa on the micro and the battle for the Union's soul on the macro in terms of how they deal with the female Moclans; having Grayson and Keyali in charge during the battle was a nice, understated bit of business. I think the Union court battle happens a bit too quickly to feel real, though the superstar casting (F. Murray Abraham! Tony Todd! All the admirals) gives it real weight. It still feels a little less personal to me than, say, "Deflectors" and the action sequence, while zippy, feels unnecessary (why do the Moclans actually attack?). I think a high 3.
Zicard
Klingon - a racist stereotype of black people. Moclan - a racist stereotype of black people. Trend ?
mephyve
This is what I call making a Moclery of an episode. As soon as I saw the crate I smacked my head and said they're smuggling a female Moclan, here we go again.
So let me get this straight. Males can procreate with transgenders. But females are incapable of procreation. Unless procreation has nothing to do with the sexual act, the science has me baffled.
According to Dolly Parton's new disciple, the birth of females happens more than the government lets on. Odds are there are transgender couples on Moclan. Are they barren? Seems like something the show would need to address in order to explain wy two Moclan females are unable to make babies. Not that I care but the writers seem determined to force the issue of Moclan sexuality into the storyline.
Which brings me back to my original point that the Union needs to stop interfering in Moclan affairs. All of Bortus'marital problems can be traced back to his crewmen using Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer to tear down his long held traditions.
Now the ship's officers are directly responsible for straining relations with the Moclan government. When they found the planet of dissidents they should have flown away like they never saw it. Obviously the evolution of Moclan morality was working itself out without interference from interlopers.
Should the Moclan females be taken back to Moclan for corrective surgery? I don't care. None of my business. Should the smugglers be prosecuted to the full extent of Moclan law? I don't care. None of my business. It's not the Union's business either. They should have done their homework before they extended the hand.
Jaxon
Moclus is a member of the Planetary Union, and yet they seem to have their own fleet of ships separate from the Union fleet. Seems like a bit of a red flag...
AuntieSister
I have been rewatching these episodes for the past few days. It seems to me to be a love letter/tribute to both TOS AND The next generation.
But today, I was moved to comment. My Zenith 20 inch 1976 tv lasted for 40 years, with a decent picture until the end. It wasn’t a smart tv, but brains aren’t everything.
Re the episode: I smiled throughout the entire battle when “Nine to Five” was playing ( it helps when I also know that there will be no significant deaths) And I love seeing Victor Garber and Ted Danson ...surprised they didn’t shoehorn a number in where Victor Garber got to sing.
Andre Rhine-Davis
Others have made both these points already in the thread, but I just want to reiterate them.
Firstly, I feel like Klyden's misogyny is a retcon. Klyden, and the Moclans in general, always treated non-Moclan females with just as much respect as non-Moclan males. Sure, *Moclan* females were seen as a disability and a perversion of nature, but this never extended to non-Moclans. Klyden was never shown to be "disgusted" by women or heterosexual relationships aboard the Orville, until this episode. Hell, he enjoyed watching the heterosexual relationship portrayed in "Sixteen Going On Seventeen" in the Sound of Music, and he was very thankful to Talla for saving him in "Deflectors". But suddenly in this episode they turn around and decide that Klyden believes "females (of all species) are weak and inferior and do not deserve respect", and that he has been teaching Topa this, which is inconsistent with his past behaviour. Hell, Kelly would not have been allowed to be Bortus' lawyer in "About a Girl" and would not have been listened to by the Moclans if they thought of females of *all* species as inferior and not deserving of respect; it's clear in that episode that their problem is only with *Moclan* females, they have no problem with Kelly.
Secondly, yes, the way Moclans think and talk about "males" and "females" makes no sense if they were truly a single-sex species. If they were truly a single-sex species, or if "females" were truly a very rare birth defect that occured once every 75 years, then they would not even have words in their language for "male" or "female". They would have no concept of gender or sex inasmuch as it applies to Moclans. They would not think of themselves as "male", and they would certainly not have conceptions or stereotypes of "females" as being this weak/inferior/subhuman type of Moclan. So what's going on here? Why do Moclans have such a strong concept of what it means to be female, with stereotypes and cultural norms and laws surrounding it, if female Moclans supposedly don't even exist? Rather than chalking it up to bad writing and bad worldbuilding, I think it's evidence that Moclans used to have males and females just like humans, and thus their culture is still full of all the conceptions and stereotypes and cultural elements relating to males vs females. (Hell, they even have "female names" as opposed to "male names", as we see from Bortus and Klyden not wanting to name Topa until after the corrective procedure!) Presumably, Moclan females give birth the same way as humans. But then, at some point in the past, presumably to help them survive in their harsh desert planet, the Moclans decided that women were too weak and inferior to even be allowed to exist at all, and so they got rid of all the women (either by killing them or turning them into men) and genetically engineered themselves to be able to lay eggs and reproduce without the need for women at all. This explains how they still think of themselves as "men" even though they lay eggs and thus are biologically more like hermaphrodites. They don't think or act like a single-sex species at all, they think and act like a species with two sexes that thinks one is superior to the other, where one has oppressed the other to the point of near extinction, and tries to pretend it doesn't even exist. I hope that in series 3 of the Orville we'll get more insight into the history of the Moclans and how they became the way they are.
Maq
Contrasts and contraditions are facinating. There have been many devoted feminists who methodicly and with hard effort manges to slowly change at least our western socity to a more fair. And we also have Dolly Parton.
When Haveena search for some music I immedatly thought of Cindy Lauper and Girls just want to have fun.
I must though admit that 9 to 5 was a better choise.
I also like the Bortus character more and more and Malloy ceased to be an irritating character.
Keyali is also positioning herself. At first I thought she would have been a better choise to follow Grayson to the planet but, also logical, she got the tas to protect the ship.
Another very good episode.
P Car
A wonderful episode. They seem to get better with time and rewatches.
Most important line for me:
The history of moral progress can be measured by the expansion of fundamental rights to those who have been denied them.
Simple, almost banal, but powerful.
Proud Capitalist Pig
Wow, young Topa sure is growing up fast. And why not? Why must Topa, a Moclan, grow up at the same rate that a human does? He is an alien. Moclans are not humans. It would be so silly and pointless to compare their alien physiology to ours. Why, they might even think differently than we do! They may have a very different value system that works for them but wouldn't work for our own society. It would be asinine to ascribe our cultural norms and beliefs to theirs. You'd have to be a meddling moron to interfere with their culture and traditions, because how dare we humans judge them and apply our own values to their society, even if--and especially if--we don't like it and find it distasteful? You'd have to be a stupid asshole to rail against their culture to the point of sending down a shuttle with two armed officers to muscle your way into an internal Moclan quarrel, bringing your moralizing and verdicts along with you. That might even start a war, and over what? They're not harming you. They didn't attack you. They're not moving into your territory. They're living their lives as they see fit, and letting you live your own. Get it? But I kid.
Like a few of you, I still don't fully understand the concept of a "Moclan female." To be blunt, what use is there for females in a single-gendered egg-laying species? Maybe it has nothing to do with procreation--they're aliens after all. Maybe the Moclan women can lay eggs as well. But in any case, what's the problem? I'm starting to think that many of you are right -- the Moclans, over hundreds of years, instituted a eugenics project whose goal was to slowly breed out all women from the species. Their reasoning would have simply been something like, “Women just can’t cut it on this harsh planet that we’ve ruined,” or even "Women are freaks and we hate them." I like @Trent’s musing that the Moclans could stand in for a more extreme Saudi Arabia. They don’t hate their women but they sure do treat them as second-class citizens and we do have a vested economic relationship with them in spite of it.
You know, Star Trek had "A Taste of Armageddon," where Kirk is so incensed that the planet of Eminians dared to claim his ship as a simulated spoil of war (and therefore insist that he send several of his crew members down to be executed) that he made it his clear mission to *destroy* the culture of sanitized war that this planet had seen for generations. And I loved it. The crew's righteous fury was infectious. And there is a little of that in "Sanctuary" to be sure, but a key difference here is that things are a lot more complicated. Kirk's situation was black-and-white basic -- these aliens need to be stopped from executing our crew, and if we bring down the entire house of cards beyond their horrifying war machine, so be it.
In "Sanctuary," the Moclans aren't obstructing the greater Union goals in any way. Sure, they are threatening members of the Union directly (and I'm surprised this statement was never spelled out in dialogue) which probably gives Mercer and those Admirals all the ground they need to intervene, but the triggering conflict struck me as something that could wait. In fact, that’s exactly how things are resolved--with a compromise that *stalls* the colony’s progress but also means the Moclan government won’t be fucking with them for a while. Cooler heads never prevailed sooner because--why exactly? Mercer and Grayson are hopping pissed that the Moclans don’t like women? The Moclans are white-hot fuming that there is a colony of Moclan women trying to live in peace *away from their own planet where they can’t hurt or influence anyone?* Everything here seemed needlessly forced because it had to be crammed into a 45-minute television episode.
I did appreciate the political maneuvering. Not so much the fiery speeches which were all bog-standard and tiresome (both the Moclan ambassador and Haveena got on my nerves in the worst way), but the more subtle points being made. I can’t tell you how much I loved the apt “Follow the weapons” line and the knowing looks that followed. I thought that was a great observation on the part of the ambassador. But then another great point was Mercer’s, about the Moclans being wiped out by the Kaylon *except for the colony of Moclan women which was overlooked.* It was in these instances where the dialogue was sharp. I also liked the scene with all the admirals. I agree that this conveyed special weight because, in a nice touch, everyone was there -- Admiral Titanic, Admiral Malone, Admiral That’s-an-Order, and even stony Admiral Ron Canada (a fantastic journeyman actor) were all there to discuss and debate with Mercer. In real life this would have been a video conference call, obviously, but it was a nice effect to see them all sitting in a room together. Maybe they were all Zoomed-out like we are starting to be. There’s a very real concern voiced in this scene -- politics is a dirty business. Sometimes you have to lie down with strange bedfellows who have cultural quirks that you find distasteful. But the need for their weapons--or oil--supersedes such concerns. Telling. I did like Admiral Titanic’s approach, though. In practice he’s against interference, but he’s unofficially quite willing to look the other way. That’s also true of political realities in many cases.
As much as I loved the use of Billy Joel in “Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes,” I was lukewarm to the use of “9 to 5” here. It’s nice to see something different in a science fiction show, but like many have mentioned above, I’m not sure this song was the right choice. It’s not really a celebration of women, it’s a statement on working for The Man and not being appreciated which was pretty far from the argument being made here (especially considering that I'm sure many of those Moclan women would love the chance to work a regular "9 to 5 job"). As rousing as the song is, it’s disconnected from the show’s message. I’m with @Maq -- Cindy Lauper would have been better.
“Sanctuary” is a nice little political drama with some action to be had, but I think what’s best about it is how we get the microcosm of its message and stakes reflected through Bortus’ story. The use of Topa was inspired (come on Bortus, you should know that kids are incapable of keeping someone else’s secret) and once again put Bortus into conflict with Klyden. Now, I’ve always liked Klyden. I think he’s been judged unfairly several times, especially in “Deflectors.” But Bortus was on point in his confrontation with Klyden. I got goosebumps when he said, “You did not bother to greet Commander Grayson and have not acknowledged her presence since you have been here,” for one thing. There are some things that Klyden could be doing better, sure, but I roll my eyes at all the above comments like, “Bortus, divorce Klyden now!” or “I hate Klyden” and such. Marriages are complicated. No one wants to work through their problems anymore, they’d just soon get divorced. You and your spouse will not be in sync about everything, ever. It’s possible for a marriage to work even when its participants have fundamental disagreements--that’s the ongoing story that I want to see.
And that last scene… wow, it got to me. Bortus earned that small, moving smile. What a nice cap.
Best Line:
Mercer -- “Unofficial orders are: Go work on your tan.”
My Grade: B
Polly
Klyden has to go. Who could possibly live with such a committed tell tale tit?
At first I had the sinking feeling that this episode was going to tackle the gender cult woo woo, then it took a left turn into the West's tendency to overlook cultural incompatibilities when we depend on the other lot's resources. Well done that show!
Have to agree with mephyve - a lot of the drama could have been avoided by just not revealing the location of the sanctuary. Also agree with those who say that we've seen all of Moclan society that we need to see.
Trek fan
Three stars for me. Definitely a throwback to the best of 1990s Star Trek TV stories, but I strongly dispute Jammer’s claim that this is part of a “solid arc” for the Moclans. I see this instead as a solid standalone story that happens to reboot the Moclans into something more interesting and coherent than we’ve previously seen. But it loses a star for a weak conflict resolution.
Hats off to writer Joe Menosky for injecting some sexual and dramatic tension into an alien species that was hitherto a springboard for very dull homoerotic soap operas. At various times, the series treated them as gender neutral or non binary, but as essentially an all male, homosexual “single sex species,” which never made much sense if you tried to think too hard about it. Now we’re back in more binary gender territory, which lends itself to clearer storytelling. And this is a snappy, fun, well written episode.
The Dolly Parton callback is especially entertaining, although repeated a bit too often and none too subtly.
That said, intercutting the battle scene with the negotiating scene felt like a real effort to mumble through an unconvincing dramatic resolution to the conflict. If I heard correctly, the Moclans agreed to stay in the Union and leave the colony in peace if it didn’t also join the Union, and they accept the compromise off screen without any compelling explanation why. In fact, the episode went to pains to suggest that the Moclans main aim was to destroy the colony, so their giving up that aim at the table without getting anything in return makes no sense. It’s sloppy, weak writing in an otherwise solid offering.
I don’t what Jammer is getting out of these Moclan episodes, but I’ve had more than enough myself. There are lots of underdeveloped characters and aliens on the ship; enough of the Bortus soap opera. Not sure if the series will develop this two-gender species reveal, or forget it as a one off story hook, but I’m just tired of the inconsistent and shallow writing of the Moclans. Let’s move on, please.
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