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Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

Sigh.

So just after a short 26 episodes Seth is gone from writing TNG fanfiction, to writing Voyager-style 'it was just a dream' fan fiction episodes of his own knockoff, now a knockoff of a nockoff stuffed with the greatest hits of anything else he happens to be nostalgic at the time.

This was franchise crushing when it was done time and time again on Voyager. Its even worse now. Time to put this one down, IMO.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Jammer

Since Tilly explicitely tells Michael that other crew members were busy and couldn't come to share their support and state their intentions they were coming that could include as large a swath of the crew that one can imagine, and even might include some Enterprise crew who considered a trip to the future as the ultimate 'Going where no one has gone before'.

Lorca specifically built a crew to as a loyalty first group which would stick together even if he lead them wherever he would. Its not surprising to me that the crew would continues to stick together. Its who they have demonstrated they are.

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

Thanks for making me laugh:-). By and large its TOS that has been the most inspiring of all the Star Trek series. Why? It stirred the imagination of a generation to create what they saw on it. It reminded people that creating a better future takes hard work. And it pushed many envelopes that non series had dared to do before unapologetically. And it still inspires people to look forwards. And I do see Discovery as the same kind of actor, offering how we get to where we want to be and demonstrating that it is not an easy road.

TNG isn't remotely the same kind of show. IMO, it was about comforting people that there was going to be a world where all the hard work was already done.

As for The Orville (which has, from what I've been told has been dropped from the California tax credit list for S3 - maybe not gone, but looks like if there is a S3, it won't likely be filmed in CA), it will most likely be seen as a TNG knockoff and vanity project of Seth Meyers that hardly anyone under 50 was interested in watching.

It telling that Discovery is one of the world leaders in TV show internet impressions. People are talking about it. Artists are busy making vast amouts of fan art. Hardly anyone is talking about the Orville. As you show, the only way the Orville gets any attention is when fans of that show appear on discovery discussions and pontificate.

And as we speak The Picard show is being filmed, and we've been promised its not going to be just a TNG continuation. Season 3 of Disco is scheduled to start filming July 1st. Several new Star Trek shows are on the horizon. IMO, its a great time to be a Star Trek fan, possibly more than a any time in the history of the franchise. IMO, its time to look forwards not back.

@Hank

IMO, Georgiou have even a tangetial connection with a Hitler type character. One has to be an ideologue to be so, and she isn't. She harkens back to how the Klingons and Terrans were presented in TOS. As an Emperor she reminds me of a Ghengis Khan type character.

@Booming @Hank

And the Federation making mistakes, or course it does? Well, the pre-TOS Federation isn't the Federation which made treaties with Cardassia. Its 10 years removed from one of its colony governors executing half his colonists because of a food crisis and ten years ahead of drawing a line in the sand over a planet of goat herders and ready to fight an interstellar war with the Klingons, which only a civilization with superior firepower was able to force a treaty to prevent. Picard's Federation is a century in the future after all the hard work of turning the TOS Federation into the TNG Federation was ironed out.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Hank

Way to much there to unpack. But still on the Hitler thing with Geogiou? Seriously. We all know enough about Hitler to know that there's not enough to know about Georgiou to know, but we do know so far she isn't literally Hitler. its not even close. And the rest well, TL;dr. Brevity is the essense of wit.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@SlackerInc

Oh, I give this season an 8/10. I've pointed out what people have missed and ways it can be enjoyed along with the many things other viewers have missed when they watched and noted when others were being hyperbolic. I've pointed out it isn't for everyone and why I make that assertion.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Trent

How many Red Angel Suits exist after the end of this season?

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@SlackerInc

You show me the interview where the writers and producers say that they did what you say and I will believe it. Is it a possibility? Sure, everything is. Do I need to believe any rumor about what is going on behind the scenes like you do? I don't.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Mal

Pike has shown a prediliction towards self-sacrifice the entire season. Of course he was going to go to the torpedo room for yet another opportunity, because that would be consistent for his character to do so.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@SlackerInc

If I were whoever it overseeing this show, I would want the people writing it have a show outline mapped out before they started writing the episodes, considering how much money is at stake, and how important CBSAA is.

Am I suprised at all that the RA figure who she saw in the beginning turned out to be Burnham, not in the slightest. I've seen and read a crapton of time travel stories. It's one of the major ways how they are played out.

@Flartbarp

Brian Fuller originally conceived Discovery as an anthology series set in different periods of the Federation. IMO, Discovery is just following along with the same crew.

Also, CBSAA reported that subscriptions to their service as of the beginning of this season were at numbers 2 years ahead of predictions, so regardless of your concerns, whatever their plans, they are working and even better than expected.

Also, the robots showed up last year, when the Discovery was repainted to appear like an ISS ship, but since most detractors of this show don't pay attention, its not suprising that they think they just appeared this ep. I, however, have a good memory.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Wolfstar

Many people show like and dislike on principal, that is true. And it goes both ways.

But I have to ask you how does the response to her after she has her vision not make sense:

Does it really make sense to you at this point in the season that say, Pike would suddenly start rejecting Burnham's advice, especially given the consequences if she isn't wrong? Think of all the times over this season he accepted her advice. He even went so far as agree to risk killing her to attract the Red Angel. I will not suggest anyone has to, say, like Pike's decision making processs and his style as Starship Commander, that's an entirly different argument, but where is the inconsistency here in how the relationship between him and Burnham as has been constructed over the course of the season?

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@John Harmon

Jammer hasn't posted his review yet. How about you?

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@John Harmon

And you are still making comments here about my comments, because...?

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Hank

Also, as I have read, Verne has been stated as not likeing H.G. Wells' stories because he didn't explain things Verne thought should be explained (Orwellian fiction is something else entirely and I don't think Discovery is that deconstructive of the genre, the time travel here or Federation doubespeak from the Klingon POV isn't really investigated in that much depth).

There seems to be a bit of confusion here, so I'll further elucidate:

But back to Verne vs. Wells. Verne wanted to know: How does this 'time machine' work? How does the 'Martian's Heat Ray' work? On and on, which Wells was never interested in. War of the Worlds features a central character who hardly knows what is going on, for instance, with regards to the invasion. So yes, I think there is a reasonable connection here in the differing approaches. Again, Verne most often hung characters from his ideas like a hard-science fiction writer. Wells, at least in his early career, did the reverse, like a new-wave writer. Classic vs. modern Trek has the same dichotemy, in my opinion.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Hank

As I have pointed out many times, if people pay closer attention to the show they will be rewarded. Such as with the vision in pt.1 which many people didn't notice started and ended with Saru saying 'that's impossible' which a number of people here noticed once I pointed it out. And there are other actual in-episode scenes I point out that people miss and are therefore confused which I do point out. Are people stupid for missing what I catch? No, because that's not a matter of intelligence, its a matter of coping with the pace at which this show moves, or chosing to watch episodes more than once if one doesn't. Are some not paying close enough attention to catch what I do? Clearly.

Do I say everyone has to watch the show it the way I do? No. Do I say that the way I watch is for everyone. I repeatedly point out that it isn't. But as you have pointed out, and we both agree, it is a way to enjoy the show.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Ryan Rabideau

Show A

Highly controversialnew interpretation of 50 year old IP. The Streaming service it launched enjoys subscriptions 2 years a head schedule, a situation which is strongly suggested this show is responsible for. Was renewed only half way into 2nd season. Research reveals it is one of the most talked about shows in the world. Has convinced the moneymen to bankroll at least 3 additional series based on its successful interpration of its IP.

Show 2

Pleases people nostalgic for a 30 year old show with similar characteristics. Has lost 70% of its audience over just 26 episodes. Shows with higher viewing numbers are being cancelled left and right. Even though the season has just about ended, no renewal noise even being made.

Which show would an outside observer suggests needs more to learn from the other?

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@SlackerInc

Well, IMO, you've missed out. 12 Monkeys is probably the best time-travel series I've ever watched. Black Sails is a masterwork clinic on writting a narrative where every single main character is a worthy protagonist with their own opposing agenda. The Expanse is the most envelope pushing science fiction series on TV right now, but that is likely to be eclipsed when Amazon finally launches their Ian Banks Culture adaptation.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Slackerinc

Nice narrow description you have for a very broad literary movement. I, however, am not scared away when the science fiction I watch bears the slightest hint of emotion, which is why I also have enjoyed Counterpart, The Expanse, 12 Monkeys, Killyjoys, Black Sails, Homeland, Atka Manniskor and many others.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Daya

It is difficult for people accustomed to people who's debate bread and butter is how ideas work vs how people work. And its not just the 'beauty salon' topics that you brought up, but the kind of way people disect non-genre fiction and non-genre movies. Subtext becomes important, as does psychology, anthropology, There's less debate on exactly how things would world and how implausible a piece of tech is, but more how it affects the people who use it. One might have long discussions about how the Ba'ul and Kalpians might be able to work together given what we've seen of their biologies. Or even how characters work against their archtypes. Is Pike really a good captain or does he subvert that Star Trek archtype? Or how does Burnham subvert expectations of different approaches to her character. There could be discussions over why the characters choose not to destroy the Discovery even though its technically possible and what we've seen over the two seasons that would lead to that decision or not.

But, those discussions are only possible by not dismissing large swaths of the series as 'bad writing' 'soap opera' (which both DS9 and Babylon 5 were accused of being) , 'mary sue' and all the hyperbole that people engage in when describing anything they don't approve of and maybe ask themselves why characters are doing what they are doing in stead of pronouncing that they shouldn't be making the choices they are making.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Slackerinc

Go read Sam Delany's Nova or Cecillia Holland's Floating Worlds and get back to me how there aren't any space battles in them. And I can also count the number of space battles in this season of Discovery on 1 finger. And for all the war going on in season 1, the space battles were rarely the focus of the narrative.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

As I pointed Out it was Omicron on the recent Orville discussion.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Cody B

I accept your ultimate effort in the spirit it was intended. I have to decline, however, on one point of honesty. I do not write fanfiction.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Omicron... brought this up in the recent Orville discussion, and I think its also worth thinking about with regards to Discovery's time travel issues this year as well when referring to a whole number of things:

"BTW real quantum physics seems to suggest that "predestination" is Nature's preferred modus operandi. Creating a divergent timeline would require the "parallel universes" (in reality: perpendicular quantum states) to interact with one other. When we calculate the actual probability of such a thing happening (at least on a macroscopic scale) we usually get zero.

Of-course since no person has ever actually travelled through time yet, we don't know how difficult (or even if it is possible) to override this natural tendency for consistency."

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Daya

In addition to the arc there's also style to be considered as well. Discovery is not closer to Versian/Golden Age Science Fiction like most fans see Star Trek as being supposed to be. Its more Wellsian /New Wave science fiction which causes a lot of consternation as such differences caused people in the past.

It should be noted that Verne hated Wells stories and called them fantasies. And Golden Age scifi readers had a lot of distaste for New Wave science fiction because the stories were no longer about the idea with characters hung on it to help explain the idea, it was about people living in scifi worlds where such ideas existed and how they went about their business.

Compare 20,000 Leagues Beneath the Sea to War of the Worlds. Compare Arthur C. Clark's A Fall of Moondust or Larry Niven's Ringworld to Roger Zelazny's The Dream Master or Sam Delaney's Nova. All still science fiction, but in many ways as different to each other as Disco is written when compared to TNG.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Cody B

I am sorry if you found me agressive. I don't think its very polite to call someone a liar. I think we should just agree to disagree.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Trent

The thing about the Kaminar wormhole was that it didn't close properly and continued to expand in timespace long after the Red Angel was gone, until the 'time tsunami effect' disintegrated it. Likely because the operator on the suit was still learning to fine tune the suits operations.

At least that's what I take from what happened.

Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Cody B

You're funny.