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Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@BZ @Jimmy

Explained also the discrepancies between early TOS Klingons and later, more warrior like Klingons, and possibly why women can't serve on the council; House Mokai turned the Klingon Empire into dishonourable spies!

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@BZ who said "BSG was consistently good"

Really?! Even that s1 episode where the centuri ambassador had a love affair? And then about 5 eps later he chastises his nephew for having one, before proudly saying he's had 3 wives and couldn't stand any of them. A further few episodes later he tells Garibaldi that he married a dancing girl he fell for on the spot. There's nothing consistent or good about s1 B5 imo ...

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Ed
"Exactly. While the story might have been more interesting with an added subplot about contested territory, nothing the characters said or did gives that impression."

Yeah, the writers seemed to have dropped any potential of the Klingon territorial claim in favour of making it seem like TKuvma was a warmongerer for unification purposes. Maybe they were attempting a commentary on Margret Thatcher and the Falklands war, or Bush and the Iraq war.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Jammer
"there have been only three without a single four-star-episode as reviewed by Jammer: VOY1, ENT4, and DIS1. "

While I totally agree DIS1 doesn't deserve 4stars and would question the 3 stars it has been given, ENT4 "observer effect" deserves 4, or 3 and a half at least. I don't know why jammer would only give it a 3.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Peter G "If there's any possibility of doubt that the borders are well-understood by both parties then the onus is on the Federation (the diplomats) to make sure everything is clear."

If that's the case why did Georgiou say with certainty, "This is Federation space, retreat is not an option. We have to flush the Klingons out".

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@JP
"why is there a centuries-old Klingon artifact in this area of space? Could it be that the Discovery is actually in Klingon space and might be perceived as the aggressors? "

Except the Klingons apparently never told the Federation it's their space; they never seemed interested in talking. Except to each other about how they will Dominate and Remain Klingon.

"By boarding the Beacon, Burnham was giving the Klingons cause to defend themselves. "

Because exploration and identification (which is all Burnham did) are cause for defence? If there was a chance of diplomacy with them, why did they ignore hails?

"There was no justification for Discovery to fire first."

Burnham's reasoning was not solely based on the events of that day. She also factored in what Sarek had told her and her knowledge of Klingons as a 'warrior race'.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@JP
"What establishes the Federation's claim to this uninhabited area of space?"

As mentioned in the episode there's a nearby Starbase and Andorian Colony.

"The Klingons clearly felt that their artifact gave them the claim"

Where did you get this impression from? what Burnham initially describes as 'an artifact' was actually a ship covered in coffins. She and Saru work this out later on in the first episode. I recall that, in a later episode, TKuvma said that he got the ship back up and running after it was laying in ruins from the generation before. So it definitely hasn't been up in space in the same spot for thousands of years.

"You just said that the Klingons "lay in wait in order to start a war""

I said the above because we know they did, from the dialogue that we were privy too which SF were not.

"but now you claim that no one suggested that"

That's not what I claimed. I said that no one assumed that Klingons are trying to start a war based solely on their "Damaging a minor, unmanned sensor relay on the outskirts of Federation space" -which is what you claimed I claimed.

If you can't keep straight what you're talking about from one post to the next I suggest you accept that this is all too much for you and give up.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@JP
"And since no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years, why would you assume the Klingons even recognized this area as Federation space? "

This sentence is riddled with so many wrongs I don't know where to start. Georgou says 'ALMOST no one has seen a Klingon in hundred yrs'. The truth is that whilst Starfleet have not been to Kronos for about 100yrs, there have been attacks by Klingons on Federation outposts and ship to ship skirmishes throughout the last 100yrs e.g. the attack which killed Burnham's parents and the 'fleeting run-ins' mentioned by the Admiral in the 1st episode.

In ENT the Tellerite in BOUNTY clearly speaks of 'Klingon space', which if you cross they will take your ship. TKurma, at the very start of DSC is whining about how the Federation is coiling around their space. All this indicates that as more and more worlds joined the Federation their space was starting to surround Klingon space.

"Damaging a minor, unmanned sensor relay on the outskirts of Federation space does not mean the Klingons are looking to start a war."

No-one said it did. But in the context of the aforementioned history, destroying SF equipment at the edge of UFP space, taking a lunge at a SF commander, decloaking in a face-off position nearby and then ignoring hails isn't exactly non-threatening behaviour. Burnham can't understand why Klingons have not attacked but appear to be calling for backup. Sarek deduces that a new leader/unify may be behind these actions, and that he maybe trying to start a war. If the boot fits.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

"Have the last word, because I’m not inclined to continue to engage you after you reduced my entire post to one sentence."

Your post was rambling on about real life and B5 to try and justify your claim that DSC breaks STAR TREK canon with regards to house of TKuvma's religious type behaviour, and klingon/starfleet interactions. I just cut out the irrelevant stuff...

On another note, I never finished watching B5. I couldn't get past that BORING episode where the Centuri Ambassdor has a love affair.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Tim
"I don't feel that the Klingons were ever portrayed as the bloodthirsty animals that Discovery made them out to be."

In the TOS movies the only reason a humbled Klingon government reached out in peace to the UFP was due to their having brought Kronos to the brink of destruction by over-mining Praxis.

There was also Kruge and the Duras sisters trying to get a hold of WMDs.

In TNG eps Birthright Wolf teaches Klingons living in a secret Romulan colony about how exhilarating  hunting is.

And you don't think Klingons are bloodthirsty?

Maybe you're suffering from the same romanticism of Klingons that Curzon and Jadzia had.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Tim
"Bloodthirsty to the point that we're justified in firing at them on sight?"

Now you're just exaggerating. Nobody in DSC fired on sight without cause.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Tim
"It is in no way comparable to the unprovoked attack recommended by Burnham in 'The Vulcan Hello'"

Klingons purposely and wilfully destroyed federation  eqiupment in federation space and then lay in wait in order to start a war. When Burnham went to investigate she was attacked without cause. Her Captain was sceptical of Burnham's recollection of events because Burnham had severe radiation poisoning. With the stakes so high, it might seem logical to attack if your priority is to prevent loss of life rather than to follow the starfleet way...

"Not really an in-character suggestion for a Vulcan either"

Vulcans will do the logical thing. They will do what is necessary when diplomacy has failed or has no obvious chance.

"unless we're going to retcon the Klingons into being mindless bloodthirsty animals"

The Klingons are a warrior race, they do have a thirst for battle, conquering and victories. I don't see this as a retcon. And they are similar to Jem Hader in this way, as acknowledged in ds9 'by infernos light'.

Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@Chrome
"Was Dukat such a threat that he’d use his orange magic fire to blow up DS9? That wasn’t made clear."

Dukat was raving about how the Parwraiths were going to set the entire universe in flames, to burn for all eternity. So yeah I'd say the station was in danger ...

"Arguably he could’ve just stayed on the station and looked for a different solution with his crew."

The path set our by non-linear wormhole aliens may not always be clear but we have to have faith that they did the best the could to repel the evil non-corporeal aliens (aka Parwraiths). And that Sisko's sacrifice was a necessity born out of the events on the station in 'Tears of the Prophets' and Sisko's not being there then. That's what he got for being a Starfleet family man first, instead of the Emissary who heeds the wormhole aliens. And after reading a lot of the negative comments about DS9 on these threads, I fear for all your paghs.

Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@Tim
"Man Abandons His Children to Embark on Religious Quest is an asinine and selfish story"

We must have watched different shows as this is not what I gathered from DS9. Sisko died; sh*t happens. He didn't chose to leave his family. It was made clear that his preference would have been to retire on Bajor with Kasidy. Avery Brooks needn't have been concerned.

Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

@Tim
"The Dominion tells us to stay the fuck out of their territory, a request that was mostly honored in EVERY previous incarnation of Trek vis-à-vis the Klingons, Romulans, and even minor races-of-the-week that we never saw again, where it was always portrayed as a Big Deal™ to violate someone's territory"

In TOS' the Enterprise Incident starfleet send it's flagship on an elaborate ruse into enemy space to steal Romulan tech -a blatant treaty violation!

Picard is often show as keeping the Romulans at bay only due to show of force. This method won't be as easy to employ on a much more powerful race like the Dominion. Especially if the AQ is divided, and Starfleet command were very away of this hence the sitting back in the ''the die is cast'.

Seems to me SF have always struggled with upholding their values when faced with enemy threat. And so they should ...

Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Tim
"A culture like the MU Terrans would struggle to escape hunter-gatherism and establish agriculture. It's fanciful to imagine they could establish an intersteller civilization. That's the problem with spending more than a single episode in the MU or trying to take it too seriously. It falls apart under even a casual examination."

I'm not convinced of this; I don't think that MU culture necessarily prevents establishment of agriculture. Only lack of seeds and that knowledge of what to do with them would prevent agriculture ... how did you come to this conclusion?

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

"My primary worry is that some CBS ratings data analysts have resolutely determined that Discovery will lose a significant portion of its audience if the plot isn't always moving at a breakneck pace" (BARON SAMEDI)

Absolute capitalism is ruining star trek.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Tim
"For starters, there is no "imperative" to save your Captain."

You didn't pick up on the fact that Burnham time and again chose Georgou's life over starfleet?

"How did Michael get past that test?"

She knew it was just a simulation? But more to the point why was Burnham reinstated as commander? she should have been demoted to ensign or lieutenant imo

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Tim
"As written, acted, and SFX’ed that scene is a conscious choice to commit murder."

It was a choice made under duress in a fight started by T'Kuvma. It was the logical choice given the imperative to save your Captain above the mission. That scene was supposed to clue us into Burnham's prioritises, not make us deem her a murderer. It did make me think "awww she loves her Captain above her career, she IS human awwww". In contrast to that scene of her first meeting Captain Georgiou were she seemed more Vulcan-like.

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Ed
I just love the canon, when it fits it really fits! :D

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Ed
"It established the Klingons as we came to know and love them (glory! battle!),"

In TOS "errand of mercy" Kor wants to go to war and when stopped by the Orangians says "it would have been glorious"

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Other Robert
Your alternative DSC s1 story outline is so much better than the incoherent mess we just witnessed over the last few months.

Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Chrome
"Just imagine a scenario where Lorca arrived in the Prime Universe immediately after the destruction of the Buran"

Then he would have arrived in empty space and died.

Even if we assume that for some reason Murca had detailed knowledge and understanding of PU/Federation, and arrived to a losing Buran before initating self destruct and escape. The fact he managed to elude the Klingons and then survive being debriefed by SF in his first few days in PU is highly implausible.

@Jarvis9
"What does this say about the "civilized" prime Federation at this time that Mirror Lorca the "barbarian" was able to blend in so easily? Or is it just terrible writing?"

I find it hard to believe that Murca wasn't discovered earlier. I think this is example of many contrived plot twists in DSC

Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

I'm in the camp that thinks ST:DSC is poorly written but I was surprised at how well this episode was flowing together, for a change, until the cringe exposition started towards the end. I wonder if the writers chose to be so heavy handed or whether they just don't know how to be subtle but effective?

Having said all that, the episode has made me think for the first time since this incarnation of Trek started; I find myself rethinking DS9's 'In The Pale Moonlight' ... maybe the writers went wrong there? maybe there should have been another way for Sisko to take?

Either way, DSC has been a weird shaggy dog story and I'm not sorry it's over.

Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@MadManMUC about "Kai Fucking Winn"

She was annoying but deliciously so. I had much a good time trying to figure out her angle and what made her tick. I liked that she was nuanced (she did heroic things during the occupation but afterwards seemed to be more into power than anything else).

But for a series which started off as being about the Bajoran frontier there wasn't a definite resolution to it (starfleet didn't send in Xenoantrolpolgists to figure out who and what are the wormhole aliens, who became the next Kai, did bajorans get over their 'religion'? Etc). That part of the ending was unsatisfactory with Sisko telling Kasidy "He might be back in a yr" as if to leave open possibility for feature film which never happened /big sad sigh/. And we are left to assume Bajor joins the ufp eventually.

Imo Bajor religion was not stupid because the wormhole aliens were god-like in many ways. They encouraged the bajorans to stay strong during the occupation. They have an affinity for Bajor to the point of manipulating Sisko into existence to be the emissary. They appear to be non-linear descendants of future inhabitants of Bajor (they have said "we are of Bajor"). This gives far more reason to follow your pagh than there is to follow any Earth religion except maybe Chakotay's skypeople.