Star Wars


2 stars.

Air dates: 8/22/2023 to 10/3/2023
Written by Dave Filoni
Directed by Dave Filoni, Steph Green, Peter Ramsey, Jennifer Getzinger, Geeta Vasant Patel, Rick Famuyiwa

October 13, 2023

Review Text

Note: Spoilers for all eight episodes of Ahsoka follow.

Ahsoka represents a lot of what's currently wrong with the Star Wars franchise while maintaining just enough fleeting interest and general competence to keep me from throwing it away altogether. This is not awful, but it sure ain't good. Clocking in at eight episodes for a "season of television" — whatever that may mean these days — it starts off turgid and devoid of urgency and then gradually builds steam before ending on a major note of "to be continued" frustration. We've reached the point where a "season of television" is not even envisioned as an "eight-hour movie" but an "eight-hour half-a-movie."

Granted, this season of Ahsoka doesn't clock in at eight hours (it's closer to six after you subtract recaps and credits), but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, this still has the structure of something that probably should've been a movie rather than this drawn-out serialized string of padded episodes.

Not to get too hung up on the structural aspects, but they do the show no favors. In light of the end of the streaming era as we knew it, with the fallout that's coming after the collapse of the streaming economic model and the WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes and the cutbacks to the once-never-ending stream of "content" as we came to know it for the past decade — Ahsoka already feels like a relic of a bygone era: a piece of property in an ever-expanding universe that tries mightily to justify itself above all else but might not be guaranteed a future.

Granted, I've only seen the first season and a half of The Clone Wars and none of Star Wars Rebels, so the fact that this is a continuation of Rebels means that aside from the title character, I know none of the history of these supporting players from their previous animated adventures. Dave Filoni, given full reign to bring his animated vision to live action, relays the backstory with the necessary exposition and it's not hard to follow, but I'm in no position to say whether this resonates better for fans of Rebels and/or the entirety of Clone Wars.

Unfortunately, based on what's on the screen as eight isolated episodes, this is another big sack of mediocrity, starting with the title character, played by Rosario Dawson — an actor I know is good because I've seen her many other places — as yet another boring, stoic Jedi who speaks in monotone, crosses her arms, and barely seems interested in what's unfolding around her. The Ahsoka of The Clone Wars (of what I've seen) was an annoying teenager, but at least she felt like a person with energy and opinions. The Ahsoka of the Mandalorian episode "The Jedi" was stoic, sure, but that was an outstanding samurai western with exceptional atmosphere and tension.

Ahsoka attempts to build out its cast in a story about the possible return of Grand Admiral Thrawn (Lars Mikkelsen), who has been stranded in another galaxy and hopes to return to this one and start a war that restarts the Empire. (With Gideon gone, I wonder if it will be Thrawn who ultimately ushers in the First Order.) Also missing, and presumed stranded in the other galaxy, is Ezra Bridger (Eman Esfandi), an ally from the Rebels days (I don't know the extended backstory) who was particularly close to Sabine Wren (Natasha Liu Bordizzo).

The key character dynamic is yet another master/apprentice relationship — which seems to be the only thing Star Wars knows what to do with its central characters — between Ahsoka and Sabine. Sabine's Jedi training has lapsed, and she's not particularly keen on taking it up again. For that matter, Ahsoka is not particularly keen on training her. But the circumstances of Thrawn's plan demand a return to action, as his proxies, Morgan Elsbeth (Diana Lee Inosanto), Baylan Skoll (Ray Stevenson), and Shin Hati (Ivanna Sakhno), are making moves to bring Thrawn back to this galaxy.

Also on hand for our heroes is Hera Syndulla (Mary Elizabeth Winstead), who mostly deals with the bureaucracy — and possible corruption and Empire sympathizers — within the New Republic, which, as in The Mandalorian, seems to be quickly paving the way to the Republic's eventual downfall. Although, given her role and what she saw in the excellent Andor (which I hope to review eventually), I'm not sure why Chancellor Mon Motha (Genevieve O'Reilly) seems so reluctant to push back on the elements in government that are rendering it so ineffective. (Ray Stevenson, who died after this season was shot, has an interesting speech about the cycle of the rise and fall of the Republic and Empire, and his character has a desire to see something that breaks the wheel and replaces it entirely.) Hera has to go rogue in order to get the job done and help her friends, because the Republic is of no help.

The early episodes set the table for the leap to the other galaxy, including a cool, elaborate map contraption that plays at times like a MacGuffin. These early episodes are the toughest to get through. This season, especially in the first half, suffers from an acute case of Star Wars prequelitis. Characters speak in hushed monotone with flat expressions, and the editing patterns in these episodes are atrocious: Every cut seems to be about three seconds too late, lingering on the actors' (muted) reactions as if every line of dialogue must be heavily considered for its weighty emotional significance — even in scenes of pure exposition where such weight is absent.

Ahsoka and Sabine play will-they-or-won't-they for restarting Sabine's training. Then Sabine cuts her hair to indicate "it's on," and there are action sequences that play as far too routine and obligatory as these things go, especially a weirdly muted space battle involving Ahsoka's shuttle's approach toward the Eye of Sion (Elsbeth's ship which she hopes to jump to the other galaxy once she cracks the code with the map), which somehow can't destroy Ahsoka's ship even when it's helplessly right in its crosshairs. This sets up a series of action scenes in the forest of the planet where Ahsoka is forced to land, and later Sabine makes a misguided deal with the devil and hands over the map in her desperate quest to rescue Ezra from his isolation where the bad guys are going to rendezvous with Thrawn.

The second half of the season picks up a bit, and probably the best episode of the season is "Part Five: Shadow Warrior," in which Ahsoka lies dying and experiences a pre-death purgatory where she must face her old master Anakin (Hayden Christensen), who sends her through a spiritual journey into her past. The episode is rich with evocative imagery and self-reflection, and once Ahsoka returns to the waking world, she takes up a plan to use the "space whales" (who are capable of hyperdrive) to follow Sabine and the villains to Thrawn's base in the other galaxy. The episode manages to drum up a nice sense of atmosphere, awe, and wonder.

The back half of the season is better than the first half, but still not great. When we meet Thrawn, he doesn't disappoint, and is a nice entry in the pantheon of interesting villains who seem far smarter and calmer than their reputation suggests. Lars Mikkelsen's performance is key here. There's some mumbo-jumbo sorcery involving Elsbeth and the witches. And we meet some locals on the planet surface, some who are hostile and others who are welcoming. The "turtle people" seem to be in the tradition of cute Star Wars creatures that inhabit such worlds, and these are the people who have taken in the marooned Ezra. But when Sabine finally finds Ezra, it's a pretty weak reunion that pretty much goes, "I'm glad you rescued me. Cool." As characters go, Ezra is a complete dud, making you question why Sabine came all this way and made the awful deal she made (which could thrust the galaxy into another war with the Empire, for chrissakes!), just for the sake of this boring stock hero Jedi friend type.

At the very least, the action picks up in these episodes and does its Star Wars thing, even if we end up dealing with zombie stormtroopers raised from the dead by witchcraft. And I will never understand why the Force doesn't just allow you to fly. You can launch someone else across a ravine, but not yourself? You can't stop yourself from falling? Whatevs.

I'm not sure what I was expecting in terms of an ending, but this ends on a complete note of non-resolution, with Thrawn escaping back to the Republic's galaxy where he can start scheming, and with our heroes — save Ezra and Hera — stuck on this rock with no way back (until they are rescued by their friends). At least The Book of Boba Fett felt complete and self-contained. The entire arc of Ahsoka is "characters go to another galaxy, Thrawn escapes, heroes trapped." Which totally could've been told in a two-hour movie.

What's more is I don't know where or how all these threads will even be continued. Mandalorian season four? Ahsoka season two, assuming it gets made? Some wrap-up movie in the far future? A combination of two or more of the above? The problem with a shared mega-universe (which the MCU is also experiencing right now) is that shows (or movies, or "content") simply become trailers for the next thing, and storytelling becomes secondary. Ahsoka plays directly into that narrative, offering up familiar nuggets where a compelling story should've been. It has its moments and it entertains at times, but on the whole it's a frustrating and hollow experience of over-produced mediocrity. There was a time when a show like this would seem justified in taking years to get to the screen. But the more threadbare the storylines and predictable the productions become, the less that justification holds water.

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271 comments on this post

    @Yanks: Not likely. If I do, it will be a brief post-season wrap-up like I did for "Book of Boba Fett" and "Obi-Wan Kenobi." There seems to be limited interest here, and I won't be able to keep a schedule anyway. I haven't watched the premiere yet because I'm waiting for the weekend to watch it with my kids.

    Disney has posted a list of other sw episodes one has to see to understand Ashoka :D

    If people want it, I can create an "Ahsoka" discussion page over in the Star Wars section for people to discuss it (with no guarantee of a review). But if there's only a few people who actually want it, it may not be worth it.

    I came here today (08/24/2023) specifically to see whether you'd be commenting on or reviewing Ahsoka, so count me in. I'm in for a few $ if you decide to review (and I'm sure that I speak for many when I say I really hope you do)!

    Just my $0.02 but if Jammer is going to review another SW series, I'd recommend he focus on "Andor" first instead of "Ahsoka" even if this is the new series airing -- same goes for opening a new discussion forum (not that that's hard to do).

    Personally I don't feel as compelled to check out "Ahsoka" as I did for MAND, BBF, OBI and "Andor".

    At some point I hope to rewatch and do a season summary review on "Andor," but that will have to wait for another day.

    The discussion forum is open, but there are no reviews at this time.

    So far, this seems like a live-action “Star Wars:Rebels” Season 5.
    Which, if you are a fan of that series, is a very good thing! 👍

    Loved the part where the purple haired punk got impaled by a lightsaber.

    I found the pacing of the first episode way too slow. I don't care enough about the characters for these long pauses of knowing looks (but maybe it means more to people who watched Rebels). And straight up, I'm ready for tits and blood in Star Wars.

    Very average and lifeless so far.

    Everything is as 2 dimensional as the cartoon Filoni helped create. Which is not to say Rebels didn't have it's moments, just not enough to warrant a basic rehash in live action form.

    And how many not even remotely fatal light sabres to the gut have we seen in recent series?

    "And how many not even remotely fatal light sabres to the gut have we seen in recent series?"

    Time was when someone impaled you through the gut with a sword you died. Pity because I really disliked that character and her stupid hair.

    Agree with others that so far things are underwhelming. It is disappointing that you apparently need to have seen this Rebels TV show to know what the heck is going on.

    I of course recognize Thrawn's name as he was the memorable villain of Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy - the only Star Wars novels I read that were worth a damn. But somehow I suspect that having read those books isn't going to be of much help to me.

    Right off the bat this whole "lost Grand Admiral" concept perplexes me. "Lost" how? Did someone send him to the phantom zone? If he is in exile, why doesn't he just come back? And why would there be a map showing his location? Who made it and why? Is this like the map to Luke from Force Awakens?

    While I sympathize with the complaints about the pacing, I'm interested in seeing where this is going. An immediate big plus for me is that this takes place a little after Return of the Jedi. Why oh why didn't the sequel movies take place during this time period?

    I haven't seen Rebels or the Mandalorian, but I did watch The Clone Wars and remember Ahsoka from there. A cursory reading of the Wikipedia entry on Empire explains that Ezra heroically sacrificed himself to take General Thrawn into hyperspace and presumed dead.

    So far the costumes and set designs are outstanding. If they can step up the storytelling, this could be a lot of fun.

    "how many not even remotely fatal light sabres[sic] to the gut have we seen in recent series?"

    Maybe that's why Darth Vader goes for the head when finally slays Obi-Wan. Speaking of which, Hayden Christensen is supposed to reprise Anakin in this series. He will be a happy-go-lucky light side character (and a ghost) by now though.

    Huge letdown after Andor was pretty much perfect.
    Stuff acting everything looks fake
    Yet another map plot

    Compare this to her episode of Mandalorian, which a had a tight story, evocative atmosphere, and fantastic action.

    One and a half stars

    I agree with the comments about maps to places being a tedious and boring plot point. And the acting is so prequel trilogy boring. People standing, crossing their arms, bowing, or slowly walking away. Rosario Dawson looks the part but at what point did she go from rogue Jedi dropout to boring, emotionless Jedi who barely blinks?

    Ray Stevenson shows some promise as a bad guy who still misses the Order because they’re all dead, but unfortunately we know there won’t be any more of him after this show.

    Quite enjoying it (and I haven't watched Rebels so no idea if that means I'm missing something important plot wise). It looks great. I do think the characterisation needs beefing up, maybe it will be in later episodes and maybe I only feel this way because I haven't seen Rebels. Yes the pace is sedate but I quite like that and hey @Peter Howie I don't want to see "tits and blood" in Star Wars and thankfully I'm pretty sure Disney isn't going to oblige you! :D

    I watched both part one and two.

    I did some homework before watching because I hadn't see all of 'The Clone Wars' or any of 'Rebels'.

    So I have and idea what is going on.

    This is a series of the valkyries for sure.

    Getting a light saber in the gut and surviving was a joke. I was expecting some kind of force healing or some other such nonsense. I guess a routine trip to a nearby hospital can fix about anything. (slaps forehead)

    I love Dawson, but this was pretty s-l-o-w. I fell asleep 1/2 way through part two. It really drag.

    Andor started the same way, so I'm in for a penny and a pound.

    Fingers crossed that this get much better.

    2.5 stars?

    Count me in among those who would like to have a review. And for Andor as well. And of course Lower Decks, whose 4th season starts in two weeks.

    Sigh, so many shows, so little time. I can only marvel at Jammers ability to write good reviews as fast as he sometimes does when I on some weeks I have trouble to find the time to just fit viewing them into my schedule.

    So far Ahsoka seems indeed to be a show "made by fans for fans" with no time being spent to properly introduce characters or explaining things to people who have not watched Rebels. Wether that is a good idea remains to be seen.

    @Jason R. if you don't want to watch Rebels in its entirety consider to search youtube for just the scenes of Thrawn in Rebels. Or don't and tell us how the show works (or doesn't) for someone without that knowledge.

    I’ve now fallen asleep half way through Episode 2 three times now (I’ve made attempts at various times of the day). Apparently, Ashoka is Ambien.

    I enjoyed these first two eps a lot. The pace was a little slow but the setup here is very promising, especially if you've seen Rebels. Ahsoka and Sabine have translated perfectly to live action. Here however I'm not buying. She doesn't have the mother hen quality of the cartoon Hera, and Winstead also seems to have lost her ability to act beyond a community theater level. I also agree with some that there were acting/directing issues during dialogue heavy scenes, but I don't agree that these issues are "prequelesque", George having problems filming talking scenes is a baseless meme that should have died with Mike Stokalasa's credibility.
    He directed Episode 4 after all, not just the prequels, nobody directed it for him, and you can't fix things like that in editing. You can improve them, but if the base material shot is bad, you can't edit that into a classic film.
    Rant over.

    I also liked the two new (dark?) Jedi a lot. Ray Stevenson and even the girl are some of the better performances so far.

    “(Lucas) directed Episode 4 after all, not just the prequels, nobody directed it for him, and you can't fix things like that in editing. You can improve them, but if the base material shot is bad, you can't edit that into a classic film.”

    They can and they did. And there’s plenty of prequel evidence that Lucas is terrible at writing and directing dialogue.

    The "Marcia saved SW/SW was saved in editing" meme is objectively a lie.
    Educate yourself.

    And even if the above was all wrong (it isn't), you simply can't conjure an acclaimed, classic film out of bad footage. Just ain't gonna happen.

    Hope the Lucas slander at least stops when he dies.

    Very slow so far with flashes of interest. Rosario Dawson is too flat, Sabine needed more set-up. Season 1 is only 8 episodes with NO indication of a renewal, and if there is, we're looking at maybe 2026, similar to Trek SNW S3. Get the lead out Dave Filoni!

    Having watched Rebels in its entirety, I’m enjoying this attempt at a live action continuation, but it is not without its problems.
    The riff between Ahsoka & Sabine is new—there was no indication of that in the animated series, nor was Sabine the apprentice of Ahsoka. So even fans of the Rebels series are in the dark about this one.

    Storywise, I found the pacing fine, but from the standpoint of filming/editing it desperately needed tightening up. And the bubbly, optimistic persona of young Ahsoka from The Clone Wars series is nowhere in sight. They started to tone down the “adult” version Ahsoka when she showed up in the Rebels series, but she was in so few episodes, it didn’t really matter. Dawson’s real life personality is a much better match for the character than this stoic version — and if they want the audience to connect to the character the way the fanboys/ girls did with the animated version, they need to start letting her personality shine through.

    Ray Stevenson’s character ( and his sidekick) are new, not carryovers, so it’s anyone’s guess what their fate will be, however we know that since Ray is no longer with us, whatever plans Lucasfilm might have had are scrapped. Which is unfortunate, since they are both turning in engaging performances.

    How much of the remaining Rebels cast actually shows up either in person or flashback remains to be seen. The purple alien Zeb had a cameo in the last season of The Mandalorian. Freddie Prinze, Jr voiced the Jedi Kanan Jarrus & Hera’s astromech Chopper, had a C3P0-sequel sidekick named AP-5 that together, brought some levity to the series, but with only 8 episodes and the quest to find Admiral Thrawn & crew mate Ezra, it’s unclear what they’ll have time for.

    To preface, I have never watched any of the Clone Wars or Rebels shows, just the Genndy Tartakovsky standalone Clone Wars short animated films, which were a fun way to show just how crazy powerful Jedi can be in their prime, while also serving as a nifty prequel in between Episodes II and III.

    I watched the first two episodes, and Ahsoka is...fine. My expectations were low, due to the potential to not know who anyone is or their history together (see above) but also the fact that Andor set the standard too high for space swashbuckling fun. Not all SW content has to mimic Prestige TV (TM).

    One of my main complaints is that, like the sequels, a lot of the environments feel cold, sterile, and clinical, rather than lived in (a nice exception is Sabine's house, complete with a cat straight out of a Miyazaki film).

    Another complaint is that Ahsoka as a character so stoic and unemotional she comes off as dull. I've heard a lot from SW:CW/SW:R fans that she wasn't always like this, and many years have passed and she's dealt with a lot since then, but an actor walks a fine line between aloof and boring.

    It doesn't help that all the prosthetics and makeup give her a stiff appearance, like it's hard to move in all that. Compare this to a prosthetic vet like Doug Jones, who can still be fluid no matter what crazy suits you put him in.

    Most attempts at humor come off as stilted, another un(?)intentional homage to the prequels, which like Jammer I enjoyed more than most despite their flaws.

    All that said, this remains a fun universe to spend time in, so I'm going to stick with this newest live-action SW show, which is all we get until they figure out what kind of film to make after the horrendous Rise of Skywalker.

    I'll just conclude that Ray Stevenson (RIP) has by far the most charisma of any character, despite not having much to do. He's followed by his Padawan, played by Ivanna Sakhno. She has the perfect look of a Jedi apprentice gone bad: a bit wired, a bit exhausted, and a touch unhinged.

    "Mate, you're on a sci fi TV fan site."

    Sir, I must inform you that you have forsaken Star Trek: The Feature Films.


    Nah, you got it right the first time. Any second-season renewal would likely be in 2025 WITHOUT the writers/actor's strike. With the strikes still underway, a 2026 renewal (if any) looks more likely.

    Just my $0.02.

    Third episode added very little to the story. Just that the new republic doesn't want to get involved (and maybe they are corrupt) and so Ahsoka and Sabine and that droid are doing this alone. We get some lasers and space whales and a wait till next week

    Though I like lasers, the whole series is on a holding pattern.
    We're a long way from the awesome dialogue in episode 3 of Andor:

    Luthen Rael : These days will end, Cassian Andor. The way they laugh. The way they push through a crowd. The sound of that voice telling you to stop, to go, to move. Telling you to die. Rings in the ear, doesn't it?

    Cassian Andor : Why don't you let me count that money?

    Luthen Rael : But they'll think about us soon enough.

    Cassian Andor : We should get moving.

    Luthen Rael : Soon enough, they'll have something else to listen to.

    Cassian Andor : You don't want to get caught with it!

    Luthen Rael : Oh, they'd hang me, would they? Take me up Rix Road and hang me in the square. Wouldn't be the first time, would it? Isn't that where they hung your father?

    Cassian Andor : [Draws and cocks weapon and points it] Who are you! What is this?

    Luthen Rael : [Cassian walks toward Luthen with his gun aimed] I said I know you. I know all about you. And yes, I want the box, and I'll leave with that if it's all I can get. I came looking for something more and I think I found it. I'd like you to come with me.

    Cassian Andor : [Cassian walks closer and points his gun in front of Luthen's head] How do you know about me?

    Luthen Rael : I was hoping for a more relaxed conversation but you're right, we don't have time. Contrary to what you told me, I doubt that you'll be sticking around. I know you killed two Corpos at Morlana-One, and I know they're coming for you. Seems like such a waste to let them have you. A waste of talent.

    Cassian Andor : [Cassian pushes gun between Luthen's eyes and whispers] Who are you?

    Luthen Rael : That's the wrong question. The right question is how much time do we have to get out of here.

    Cassian Andor : Why would I go anywhere with you?

    Luthen Rael : Don't you want to fight these bastards for real?

    Cassian Andor : They're so proud of themselves, so fat and satisfied.

    I’m as bored as I have been with every other SW show save Andor and the first season of The Mandalorian.

    Andor was my favorite show of last year overall (other than Severance, though arguably that was the prior year) and probably the best thing Star Wars has ever done. Not fair to compare everything else to it, but what can ya do.

    Ok, that wasn't as good as the first two.
    This ep really highlights the problem with this "streaming show" format.
    This is clearly just another long movie stretched out. The dogfight went on far longer than it needed to and far longer than it would have in a movie version of this story.

    Seriously, don’t watch or review Ahsoka unless you watch her key episodes of Clone Wars and then all of Rebels. (Rebels is the best of the SW shows outside of Andor, anyway.)

    After sleeping on it, I have decided (I know it's early) that this is my least favorite of the live-action SW shows. The others at least have compelling lead characters and actors

    The other thing that made Andor great was that it respected the original films without copying them. It respected the plight of the galaxy under the Empire. And it respected the people that fought for the cause against tyranny.

    The sequels and some of these shows just make the new republic so useless that it diminishes the struggles of the rebellion and its heros.

    And the prequels just make the old republic and the Jedi flawed and plain dumb.

    And of course the fact that Andor was written extremely well; plot, dialogue and character development.

    "And the prequels just make the old republic and the Jedi flawed and plain dumb."

    The prequels are written by the same guy as the originals though. Even Lawrence Kasdan has said that "Raiders was my much more my script, Empire was George's" (source is "Skywalking by Dale Pollock" IIRC).

    @Roger Ales
    Same guy .. yes but not really. When you are a billionaire you are not the same hungry person who is trying to make it work

    That makes no sense. Most (all?) big directors don't lose their touch when they become financially stable.

    It wasn't just being a director. In fact he didn't direct twi of the original three movies. He got rich from merchandising and then let 16 years pass.
    Kind of lost his edge. The story was ok.. but HIW the story was told was pretty clunky.. with overuse of fake backgrounds and wooden dialogue, the prequels felt more like million dollar stage shows

    From 71 to 77 he directed 3 critically acclaimed films, and Lucas didn't just do nothing to keep his skills up until 1999. Besides showrunning, writing and planning storyboards (and directing parts of) SW 5 and 6, he also was around doing second unit on the Indy movies through 1989, and also produced many shows and movies in that time between 89 and 99.

    So, he writes and directs 3 well received films (basically 5, if you've read about the production of Empire and Jedi- Lucas was storyboarding the completed scripts before directors were even hired), then relaxes into a producer role until 1999.

    I don't see where the edge loss would come in.

    > It is disappointing that you apparently need to have seen this Rebels TV show to know what the heck is going on.

    Why? Fans of the show can't have their own thing? Must every thing be for all viewers?

    Personally, I'm having a fuckin' blast. :P


    "You might not see it, but it happened. Look at the documentaries for the prequels."

    Exactly. None of us took pleasure in it, quite the opposite of course, but it happened.

    Anyway, back to the matter at hand. Ahsoka is, not unexpectedly, very average. Episode 3 doesn't do much to change that. Only 5 eps left and we have no compelling characters to speak of, a half assed plot crawling along at a snail's place and dialogue directly lifted from ANH.

    The first two eps were quite slow, and Rosario Dawson was very wooden. But Ep 3 really ramped things up. Ahsoka outside the ship, badass! Still, the season only has 8 episodes, and a S2 has not been confirmed. I really hate these streaming lags. SnW S3 may land only in 2025.

    ["You might not see it, but it happened. Look at the documentaries for the prequels."

    Exactly. None of us took pleasure in it, quite the opposite of course, but it happened.]

    I think I have presented a compelling argument to the contrary.
    Why would a guy with 3 very well received films under his belt (THX, Graffiti, Star Wars), and who then continued to be involved in various well liked projects (including the later 2 SW films that he was the ultimate author of) through *at least* 1989, suddenly in just a few years (production of Phantom Menace began in 1994) just turn into a hack worthy of the level of ridicule the prequels have received? It doesn't make any sense.

    @roger ales
    Having 15 minutes to bet on a podracecthatcis upcoming instead if moving the story forward proves the edge was gone. Ot rolling in the grass

    You are treating every filmmaker the same for some reason I cannot fathom

    I think what happened to George Lucas is what happened to quite a few famous directors. He got too successful and people stopped contradicting him.

    Exactly @Booming

    Compare prequels where he directs like:
    "We'll have them get hit so they can go to Tatppine and meet Anakin. We are at a shop with... ehhhh... used spaceship parts. Anaconda will say "weee" and "woo-hoo ". Hopefully it will work"

    Compared to original trilogy George

    After Mark Hamil asks if he was going to tell us who Darth Vader , lord of the sith, is. "Mmm... no. He's dressed in black. The back ground is white the music will tell us he's evil and important. People will get it"

    Big difference in approaches

    That's what I mean. if nobody ever tells you when you are wrong then you make more and more mistakes.

    Once again we have a serialized tv series that looks (so far) like it should have been a 2 hour movie instead. Pretty thin stuff.

    And I get it—streamers need the audience to tune in weekly. But I was a big fan of Star Wars: Rebels, and despite its shortcomings, you got a complete story with a beginning middle & end each week. And the longer stories were told in multi-episode arcs.

    Again, there are plenty of serialized shows I like (The Last of Us, Jack Ryan, GOT, Better Call Saul), but both Star Wars & Star Trek really struggle with this kind of storytelling.

    Given the hot mess that was the prequel trilogy, the horrible CGI updates implanted in the original trilogy, and the hints of stupidity that began peaking through in Return of the Jedi, I think it’s obvious that George Lucas either A) began huffing paint sometime in the mid 80s, or B) isn’t quite the brilliant mind that the first two SW movies made him seem to be.
    The gawd-awful Jabba’s palace musical number spliced into Jedi alone should indicate some sort of clear descent into madness.

    Not very compelling counterarguments guys. The "no one contradicted him" one in particular is lame (the other examples given by Mercer don't even illustrate problems so IDK what you're point was there). His first 3 movies in the 70s were intensely "him". American Graffiti was practically an autobiography. Very strange to act like the prequels were the first time we saw "Lucas unleashed".
    Not to mention that by the time Empire Strikes Back came around, Lucas was not only the Vince Gilligan of the series, he was also basically (literally?) his own studio head and was funding the movie out of his own pocket. Remember that many directors turned down Empire and Jedi because they knew Lucas would be the "real" backseat director.

    The Jabba's Palace dance number sucks, we agree. But the new ending montage at the finale improves the entire trilogy. Ending on an Ewok party was always a wet fart of an ending that didn't convey the magnitude of the victory.

    Roger Ailes - the simple fact is that George Lucas, the director, had a 22 year gap between ANH in 1977 and TPM in 1999. Working some second-unit direction on specific scenes is a far cry from driving the whole project. Especially when you no longer have Kasdan, Kurtz or Spielberg helping you out. Even counting these, you're still looking at a 16 year gap. And, judging by Lucas's waistline and chin count, he had a few run-ins with the Cantina.

    I started watching Star Wars: Rebels (it helps that I have a kid to watch with) and it's surprisingly very good. It's also completely different in pace from Ahsoka. There's basically a caper every episode complete with a Star Wars aesop, so it's an easy watch.

    As for this show, I hope they find Ezra and Thrawn soon. I did enjoy some of the training and particularly the ship battles of this week's episode, but the plot is moving slow and really feels like a bunch of build up so far.

    Re: George Lucas and the Prequels

    I have read that Lucas had shopped around for others to direct those movies but none of his buddies wanted to be known as "the person who ruined Star Wars" so Lucas was stuck directing them himself. So, Lucas knew his own limitations, but he also was under a lot of pressure to expand the SW franchise. We got what we got. The prequels are all serviceable movies, imo.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on the prequels being serviceable movies. I liken them to striking out at whiffleball, particularly The Phantom Menace. I get Lucas was probably under a lot of pressure, but he also had a built in, highly enthusiastic audience and a virtually unlimited budget. Producing some cartoonish, kids focused bullcrap really was pretty inexcusable, in my opinion.

    Agree to disagree. I find the prequels (especially TPM and RotS) to be just as well made as the OT, and have never seen a convincing argument to the contrary. If anything, Lucas' directorial skills improved when comparing ANH to TPM.
    ANH has some jank, whereas TPM is a pretty accomplished production throughout. If anything Attack of the Clones is the weak point. I think he got demoralized from the reception to TPM.


    None of his buddies wanted to be known as "the person who ruined Star Wars"

    J J Abrams "Hold my beer!"

    The "person who ruined Star Wars" was unfortunately destined to be George Lucas since there was only so much any director, no matter how great, could do with a script like that. Maybe Lucas knew his limitations in terms of directing but was he really prepared to give up his baby in terms of envisioning and continuing the actual story to someone else?

    @roger ailes

    If you want a cogent argument delineating the OT from the prequels, it can be summed up in four words:
    jar jar fucking binks.

    When one of the core characters of a story achieves the equivalent of having lemon juice squirted in your eye, it’s hard to call it an accomplished production.

    FWIW, I think Lucas' directing in the prequels wasn't the major factor in whatever limitations they have. The scripts are really to blame, and frankly so is (IMO) casting Hayden, who just didn't have the technique to overcome a lousy script and create a character we would love all on his own. Just by contrast, look what McGregor did with the same stuff; he came off as lovable and charismatic. Yes, the actors were never going to get help from the director, but Lucas was always a highly technical director, which is not at all uncommon in film, so that alone shouldn't have sunk the performances.

    Jar Jar is fine. Is he a highlight of the movie? No. But I never got the outrage. He's mildly amusing and the thematic use of him plotwise is interesting.

    As for the prequel scripts, AGAIN, George is the same guy who wrote the original film. And the main people who contributed to the script besides him went on to write and direct Howard the Duck, so if anything that's a point in favor of the PT scripts (by the way, Carrie Fisher did passes on the TPM script).

    @Roger Ailes I guess I'm not going to convince you, but there was an efficiency with the story telling in ANH, as if the plot s carried from person to person like a baton. It starts right off the beginning when the ship gets hit, cut to the droids feeling the impact.. and as they comment on the dire situation, we see Rebel; troops marching past them, from there we follow the troops, then we follow vader, then to Leia then back to the droids.. it's careful attention to efficient storytelling progression.

    Much better than 15 minutes in TPM talking about how the bet dynamics for the podrace keep changing. . (personally I always thought that they way they should have done it was have the podrace beginning as Qui-Gon enters the city, and have him sense the Force with the kid, and bet everything on him.. this would be much more efficient than spending 15 minutes on ... NOTHING)

    @Roger Ailes so you don't agree that Vader's wordless introduction is more efficient than wordy, boring intros we had in the prequels?

    With episode 3 of Ahsoka we're well over an hour and a half into this series... yet it's not nearly as compelling as the first five minutes of "the Jedi " episode of the Mandalorian episode where she was featured.

    I guess Filoni lost his edge too

    @peter g

    I think it’s possible that Hayden wasn’t a good enough actor to carry the role, but it’s also important to bear in mind that the over-reliance on CGI effects would have made any actor’s job much more difficult. Emoting or reacting in front a green screen just isn’t the same as interacting with things that are actually in the room. So it’s hard to say how big a negative factor casting played in those movies.

    Disagree with both counts. Qui Gon coming in mid race doesn't work for many reasons, including the important fact that the "pointless set up" is establishing many things, including important elements of Anakin's personality (willingness to help people etc) and history (birth, slavery etc).
    Prequel bashers would just be crying about how the race lacks "emotional context" or something if they did it your way.
    That's the big thing about P
    prequel bashing- it is utterly divorced from logic or reason and is an ever shifting, amorphous blob of meaningless nitpicking that, if aimed at any film at all, could be used to make (lame and bad) points about how bad X classic film is.

    And as for Vader's intro vs people in the PT, im seeing an issue. In fact, the best character introduction of the series is Episode 3, where it is also wordless. Obi Wan and Anakin flying in sync into the battle, showing their bond.

    @ Roger Ailes,

    "As for the prequel scripts, AGAIN, George is the same guy who wrote the original film."

    You have to do some research about how ANH's script finally came to be what it became. If George had used the script he originally wrote (a) it would have been terrible, and (b) he would have been sued into oblivion. His famous buddies (like Coppola) fixed his script in many rewrite iterations, and of course Marcia fixed it too. The biggest loss for the prequels was the lack of Marcia; in other words, no one present to tell him when something in the script was stupid.

    @ Idh2023,

    "I think it’s possible that Hayden wasn’t a good enough actor to carry the role, but it’s also important to bear in mind that the over-reliance on CGI effects would have made any actor’s job much more difficult."

    Compare Hayden in AotC and Robert Downey Jr in the Marvel films. Both have tons of green screen. You can see the difference between a raw talent who needs to be in the right hands to succeed, like Hayden, and a refined pro like Downey, who will be great no matter what, and in fact will fix bad scripts and be good regardless, like he did in Iron Man. I'm not talking smack about Hayden, but he couldn't handle this gig. The blame goes to whoever invited him to do it. He did have some good moments, so there's a glimmer of his potential. But...well, just tell me how many people you know who fell in love with is character after Ep II?? That's his job, to make that happen.

    Also I did "fall in love" with Hayden's character, so to speak. AKA it worked for me. And many others. It's not like Mark Hamill was stiff competition.

    @peter g

    I’m not attempting a defense of Hayden’s acting chops, I’d feel uncomfortable arguing that position even from a devil’s advocate standpoint, my main point is that I think the poor kid was set up to fail by having the story serve the effects rather than having the effects serve the story. A better comparison than Robert Downey jr would be to contrast the unseasoned mark hamill to the somewhat raw Hayden. Even in scenes where hamill shows his rough edges, the fact that he’s generally interacting with real scenery, such as a swampy garbage compactor full of junk, lends an intrinsically genuine element to his work because he was, well, actually in the room. It’s possible Hayden could have been assisted by more tactile engagement with the stuff around him which might have helped cover some of his acting deficiencies. Personally, I find the CGI usage to be the main, tho certainly not the only, drawback in the prequel trilogy.

    I don’t get the "at least there was real stuff on set" argument. Never have. Look at Mark in the scene in Yoda's hut in Return of the Jedi. His facial expressions are so broad and unfocused because of trying to act against a puppet.

    (It's a short so It's under a minute)

    I disagree with that assessment. Puppet Yoda out-acted mark hamill through much of their scenes together which likely forced hamill to raise his game a bit. Actors everywhere will tell you that bouncing off a counterpart, even a puppet, gives you more to work with and elevates the craft.

    It didn't though. Hamill is playing it way too broad and hazy in that scene. No different than a green screen acting issue.

    I’m not saying hamill was some sort of genius actor or anything, that scene in Yoda’s hut is a little rough for sure, but it wasn’t rough because of the presence of puppet Yoda. More due to hamill being a bit limited. And the scene still works, it’s still functional.

    Take as contrast the scene in revenge of the sith where general grevious unveils his multiple lightsabers to obi-wan. Ewan mcgregor is supposed to be standing maybe ten feet away from an intimidating display of lethal danger, and yet, at that high drama moment, his reaction is virtually nonexistent. No step back, no noticeable tensing up, he just remained still. This wasn’t mcgregor’s fault, it was the result of him staring at a greenscreen and being told what to react to, or seeing a rough approximation of what to react to in the form of a stand in. The final product is a flat, unsubtle moment lacking the nuance of human emotion. The effects of that era just weren’t up to snuff to play such a central role in the movies. I’ll take puppets.

    I am mainly talking about scriptwriting and screen efficiency

    But projecting backgrounds on a green screen, like the prequels did, can take me put of a movie because it rarely feels like Qui Gon and Obi Wan are actually in that location.

    For comparison, when Eowyn exits the Golden Hall in The Two Towers film and she walked outside and she is actually standing outside that castle on a mountain and her hair is blowing in the wind... wow! She believes she is there because
    . Well... she actually is. And the audience believes it too.
    If they geenscreened that shot it might have worked but not as effectively

    I've seen these silly discussions countless times. Who cares what anyone personally thinks about the prequels. There are much more important things in life to discuss.

    @Dirty Dancer

    Yeah, who are these people who waste time talking about these ridiculous 'science fiction' stories? We're all going to die someday anyway.

    Jammer I hope you can PLEASE REVIEW Ahsoka whenever you can..and any chance of Dr Who at some point?


    Agree. Jammer reviewing this series will be about as pointless as trying to convince a prequel trilogy lover that they're more shit than good.

    Or vice versa of course.

    I can't get over how BAD the show is, especially the acting.
    I mean, in episode 2, while in the hospital room, a bomb is about to go off from the droid's head, and Ahsoka is like "I don't we think we have a minute" as if she's about to sleep. Like.. really? Same thing with the "battle" in episode 3.. they don't really act like they are in any danger.. they bring nothing to the proceedings as far as acting goes.
    Rosario looks soooooo friggin bored playing this role, like she could literally fall asleep at any moment, with her arms folded of course

    The last episode was a slog.

    You can watch a recap to get up to speed on the characters as I have, but it still doesn't help invest you in the characters.

    Setting the scene, introducing the characters, providing the viewer with reasons to care - these are the things that apparently Star Wars is now above. In the right hands, we could have had a solid intro that would engage Rebels and non-Rebels fans alike.

    This is objectively bad.

    I wouldn't be so quick to assume the poor reception is from disenfranchised fans who haven't watched Rebels. On the contrary, I think it's actually the Rebels fans by-and-large who are throwing their critical faculties out the window.

    Ewan's reaction was perfect/worked/was unproblematic. This is what I mean, it's like these critiques come from some alternate reality.
    When Grevious revealed his sabers, Obi Wan gave a cocky/exasperated smirk that worked perfectly.

    I mean, LotR was chock full of greenscreen and it often looked great. Frodo's hair whipping around on Mt. Doom is still affecting even with the visible matte line/whatever in his hair.

    It seems I'm not alone in thinking that Ahsoka, thus far, is really quite boring. I got to the end of episode 3 and just sort of shrugged to myself. I don't know what it is, exactly, but in recent years I feel that Star Wars series / output has become too frequent and ten a penny. Like Liam Neeson said, the franchise is too saturated with content now, and not stellar content at that. I was, seemingly, one of the 'few (?) that enjoyed obi wan kenobi, cos I care about the characters.

    True. But Jackson realized that his sprawling epic should be done with a multitude of techniques depending on the shot.. obviously, none of it is actually real. Reminds me of Zemeckis talking about the hoverboard scene from BTTF2. When you watch the sequence and figure out how they did it for one shot, it won't be how they did it for the next shot.
    filmmaking is creating the illusion that it's all of a piece, even though it's not

    Well to that I would say that the handwringing about the prequels just being "cgi and computers" in general is overblown. The prequels employed more practical effects than the sequels, for example. The sequels had 0 spaceship miniatures and were also digitally color graded to hell and back. All to say that George still was creating the PT through more traditional means than any blockbuster today.
    If you can stomach Avengers Endgame's visuals, for example, that was a much more "total CG greenscreen do it in post" film than the PT.

    Now would George have gone full Endgame if the tech was there? Maybe. But that's a different argument.

    yes they did employ practical effects. especially the first one. But the approach was just to project these images on a blue screen background the actors stood in front of, while cleaning up the images so much that they look sterile. The effect is that everything looks stale and unreal, despite all the "practical effects" being used, it never feels real

    What I appreciate is how Andor felt real.. it would often start a shot a shot with something that was actually built and then start showing the "CGI elements" as part of it,
    It's just a different approach to SFX

    I disagree. First of all every movie had tons of sets (and 1 and 2 had a lot of locaruon shooting as well), and second of all, what does "cleaning up the images" mean?

    Means that even that the stuff they built was composites with a computer and looks cgi even it is not, especially when it's composites in the background on a green screen with the characters standing in front of that screen .. it might as well be cgi at that point.

    Also, this might just be me, I prefer SW to be gritty , used.

    To me CGI can look great.
    Overall though, mixing up the techniques a bit is often more successful.
    It's not a hard and fast rule.. for example, transformers are generally just going to be CGI.

    BUT when creating environments or set pieces, I find that using a multimedia of techniques works best

    They did use a multitude of techniques, and were often in front of real sets.
    Ewan stood in everything from sets to real life locations to cgi backdrops to miniature backdrops.

    Not really sure what you are trying to say at this point.
    All I can tell yoi is that the prequels feel a bit on the fake side. A bit too clean..
    That's in spite of the fact that there are moments that look ok. The pit where the terminate shoves Anakin's shoulder and the actor moves shish shoulder appropriately before it ties him to the pole .. doesn't really make me believe the termite is really there.

    What I'm trying to say is that the PT has more going on visually than you seem to think, and you also don't seem to be able to articulate what things like "cleaning up the images' means.

    @roger ailes

    I don’t think you quite grasp what I’m referring to. Simple facial expressions are only part of what makes an emotion believable, there are various other communicative aspects to how people express themselves, another language of sorts tied to body language and highly subtle reactions that are extremely difficult to convey against the relative vacuum of a greenscreen. Even the most talented actors have difficulty working to something that’s not really there or in an approximation of what the actual idea is supposed to be. If you need people to articulate to you that human interaction is a complicated, deeply nuanced endeavor I’m not sure how it’d be possible for anyone to explain to you why they couldn’t immerse themselves in the prequel trilogy. It boils down to the idea that details matter, and even almost imperceptible details missing can be and will be noticed by an audience. CGI can be used very effectively to “clean up” a scene, some of the OT updates is evidence of that, but actual characters or entire set pieces being animated results in a sterile, flat feel that it’s pretty evident many people perceive.

    I was talking about how even practical effects in the prequels somehow look like the cgi effects.
    They shoot them often as background plates.
    Them they shoot the characters separately in front of a greenscreem
    Then after cleaning up all the elements in post they place both practical and cgi just shots behind the actors. It all kind of looks cgi at that point. Cg was used to give everything a clean even look.

    Jesus, the prequels are cartoonish looking with wooden acting, bad dialogue, convoluted (often nonsensical) plot lines and poor character development. The OT is universally recognized as one of the great trilogies ever. The PT isn't. Stop feeding the silly troll.


    "With episode 3 of Ahsoka we're well over an hour and a half into this series... yet it's not nearly as compelling as the first five minutes of "the Jedi " episode of the Mandalorian episode where she was featured."

    I couldn't agree more.

    "I guess Filoni lost his edge too"

    I'm hoping the slow burn works here like it did in Andor.

    It's just really surprising to me that there is literally no edge to this material at all.
    Even pairing Ezra and Sabine romantically might be something... the whole brother/ sister thing is just as boring as everything else

    I wonder if anyone thought to ask the preeminent, and only, actual Jedi in the galaxy for help...

    Surprisingly, that was better.

    Still silly, and leaves you with loads of continuity questions, but better.

    I thought episode 4 was pretty darn good.

    Not so sure about Anniken's CGI deaged face though.

    While definitely an improvement this week, this show lacks something. It feels like there are only 6 people in this whole galaxy. And aside from Baylon, none of them have any agency at all as the plot determines what they will do and nit their worldviews.
    Was Sabine holding a wooden pistol prop to destroy the map?
    Everything that would matter to the story emotionally is not even in this series, from Ezra to the mysterious dimension.

    And instead we have pretty flat dialogue.

    So, halfway through the season and:

    1. We have yet to be introduced to Thrawn, nor do we know WHY he is considered such a threat. Currently he is in another Galaxy even far, farther away, with no Imperial fleet or resources. When we last saw him in Rebels, Ezra & the space whales had him on his heels, so I’d expect to meet a half-crazed madman living on a derelict starcruiser lookin’ like Jeremiah Johnson.

    2. Ahsoka gets transported into “The World Between Worlds”, a concept & place which didn’t make a whole lot of sense when it cropped up in “Rebels” and will prolly make even less sense to those who never watched the series.

    3. The non-Rebels audience STILL doesn’t know why Ezra is so important to either Ahsoka or Sabine (no flashbacks to establish their relationships) and to be honest, since Rosario Dawson has been relegated to walking around with her arms folded delivering her dialogue in a stoic manner, I will say it again: the show really should’ve been called Star Wars: Sabine”.

    4. With all the deepfakes we have seen in the last few years (some of the best by amateurs on YouTube) there was no reason to see such a poor job of de-aging Hayden Christensen except for lack of time or care.

    5. Ray Stevenson, even with his limited screen time, is the only character, for me, that stands out and gives us a nuanced enough of a performance to come off more than just a “Villain-of-the-Week.”

    6. ICYMI: For whatever reason, Disney/LFL is going to be having theatrical screenings of Episode 5 in major cities worldwide on Sept 12 ahead of the ep dropping on Disney+. They are calling it a MidSeason Fan Celebration event.
    Unless the running time is at least an hour, seems a lot of effort for a half-hour-ish tv ep.

    Agreed on all points.
    Any emotional connections is from off screen material and the actors are not good enough to sell the idea that ANYTHING drives them

    Your point about the emotional connection is 100% spot on.

    Apart from the hardcore fans, I don’t see this series becoming a hit with general audiences like “ The Mandalorian” or even receiving the critical acclaim of “Andor”.

    The show has potential, but like many projects of the streaming-era, it’s being squandered by trying to stretch a thin story to seemingly fulfill a quota of episodes.

    @Gilligan's Starship
    I agree. Episode 3 was just a couple of scenes to get us to the next chapter. It's like they were begging the sfx guys ti make a few more shots to that space chase to get it up to a 30 minute episode.

    I care more about what drives the characters. That us the heart of the best Star Wars stories.
    Luke defied his teachers and decided to save his father rather than kill him because he's his FATHER and we can all relate to that.
    While Ezra is a friend.. the actors seem so detached here and I don't feel what the writing seems to want me to feel


    Unless Morgan Elsbeth knows Thrawn is standing by with a new Alien Horde Army waiting for the hyperspace ring to transport them back to the Home Galaxy, I’m not sure what the high stakes are. They just aren’t there.

    I’m looking forward to the inevitable fan-edit of this series that whittles it down to a watchable 2 hours ;)

    Is this show trying to make Ahsoka herself more important to the lore than Luke himself?

    Much of the story came together this week, and it's extremely likely that next week's episode will feature not only Anakin, but Ezra and Thrawn as well. So, that sounds exciting enough for a (limited) theatrical release. Especially if you're one of the hardcore SW fans who follows all these shows.

    I suspect Ezra will be angry at Sabine for making the sacrifice she did to save him. Then again, Ezra could go a long way to help Sabine with her Jedi training.

    Some great lightsabers fights this week, but the titular character still seems too weak. How will Ahsoka be able to step into the spotlight again from here?

    @Gilligan's Starship @MercerCreate

    Thumbs up to pretty much everything you guys said.


    I have hopes that next week will kick it into high gear as I was big fan of Rebels and they had some great stories. But The World Between Worlds stuff is confusing, and I’m afraid it’s going to be used as shortcut to get us where we need to be storywise. And as much as fans love Thrawn from the Timothy Zahn novels, he never really posed much of a threat to the Rebels main characters in the animated series. They always got away while he seethed, “Next time they won’t be so lucky…” Unless they actually kill off a main character, it’s just going to be a repeat of the Rebels finale, only this time Ezra stays. Filoni has pulled off great eps before ( the final duel between Maul & Kenobi), I just hope he’s got something radical planned out here too.

    "I think the Force and I have different priorities."
    -- Cassian Andor, nicely summarizing why I hate this show

    Ok, I have no idea what they're doing with this show. With only 3 episodes left, I have a bad feeling that we'll finally see Thrawn in the finale with a setup for Season 2.

    This ep was all kinds of confusing, even for stalwart fans of Rebels like myself. First, there's waaay too much unexplained magic in the World Between Worlds. Then we get Ahsoka's mind-meld with the space whales, who may or may not take them to Sabine in their MOUTH? Holy Kenobi, that was a bridge too far for me.

    Even Hayden, whom I never blamed for the acting, is light years beyond these characters. As much as they want to shove the newbies down my throat, they just don’t take. And the box office and ratings or whatever vouch for that, or Disney wouldn’t be hemorrhaging money.

    Episode 5 was visually stunning, and Hayden Christensen offered a decent performance as Anakin (of several time periods). Between this and his Obi-Wan appearance, it’s clear Christensen loves playing Vader more than being a Jedi. And even when he's a Jedi, he seems to be constantly radiating anger and a darkness. Or maybe that’s the de-aging and lighting. Personally, I thought post-RotJ Anakin would be satisfied he vanquished the emperor and has a powerful Jedi son. But maybe that's just me!

    As mentioned above, it would have been great to see Ezra and Thrawn. Perhaps Filoni was worried they'd hog too much time from Ahsoka? Thrawn might just be a McGuffin like Luke was in TFA.

    Anyway, I'm interested to know what Ashoka learned from Anakin here. Was her problem not choosing a side? Or that she just didn't care enough to win? The subject is brought up this episode but isn't really answered.

    Director of any Ahsoka episode: "you could always just fold your arms and act uninterested."

    oh so there is a serene moment where we are meant to listen to the waves crashing.. in the mix, the lightsaber sounds might be subtle. It's a good idea.. o why oh why did they put background music over this? Do they NOT trust the audience at all? That's the whole problem with the show.. they give the audience no credit at all.

    I'm not sure I get the overall love this series seems to be getting online. Other than Clone Wars (which I haven't seen) and Rebels (which I have seen) fans enjoying the elevation of their favourite shows to live action. The comments on this thread seem much more in line with my views.

    In addition to what's been said:

    - Mary Winstead just isn't working for me. In a series of mostly average acting, she is standing out as duller than dishwater.

    - Ray Stevenson is not in this episode.

    - The scenes on the planet are painfully slow.

    - Ahsoka learns to choose life in the scenes with Anakin, involving numerous, unnecessary light saber duels. When had she given up on life again? I mean, I get that she was stern and bland, but I didn't think she had given up.

    - Some of the stuff about Jedi turning into warriors rather than peacekeepers was ok and Christensen did fine (certainly better than his work from 20 years ago).

    - Surviving underwater for, what days? is crazier than Leia Mary Poppins-ing her way in from space in TLJ.

    - They're not just ripping off old Star Wars they're also harvesting LOTR for material now.

    - I know, I know, Star Wars is basically for kids but the Space Whales jumping between galaxies was too much for me. Why didn't they talk to the purrgil x number of years ago when Ezra first disappeared? For that matter, where's Luke, Leia... Ok I know the answer to this, but it just really stands out as stupid and disrespectful.

    Anyway, I had some hopes for this episode but spent more time scoffing than I wanted to. Hopefully they can finish it off without a cliffhanger.

    When I see all the online praise this show is getting, I feel a similar puzzlement as I did while watching Picard Season 3: While fans seem to truly find meaning in it, I just see a disjointed mash of memberberries and truly deficient storytelling that has nothing to say. I might be missing something. But ultimately it is this type of content that makes me feel divorced from the fanbase (rather than the obviously bad stuff) that made me stop watching Star Trek. I suspect Ahsoka will stop making me watch Star Wars as well.

    Ahsoka is a show about absolutely nothing. There are no themes, no world-building (what political factions exist in the galaxy as the threat of Thrawn looms? We know nothing), no character arcs and no interactions that stand on their own (rather than relying on what happened in the cartoons). Dialogues describe what is happening on screen, with no subtext. It is the death of storytelling. There is only plot: We go from point A to point B, with every step of that boring journey meticulously shown to us.

    As a reader of Timothy Zahn's novels, I will also add that the writers severely misunderstand what makes Thrawn's character interesting. Thrawn isn't a MacGuffin threat to unveil in the second act; Thrawn is a riff on Sherlock Holmes and the deductive (inductive) process. Yes, he keeps some carts close to his chest to have some fun reveal at the end, but the whole point of the character is that we follow his reasoning from the very beginning and understand the fully logical way in which he develops his plans. He's not a magical world-ending Thanos villain, he's a thinker that is able to optimize mundane, military resources to one-up the heroes. If you are going to film a show with Thrawn as the main antagonist, we the audience need to be clued into his schemes from the very beginning, and almost feel sympathy towards him. Yet his inflexible belief in knowledge and his intellectual infallibility is also his undoing, as a single datapoint that he is unaware of (in the books, the fact that Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker) makes his reasoning faulty. This is a key flaw that Zahn himself seems to have forgotten in later renditions of Thrawn, and not for the better.

    To summarize this long rant: I feel about David Filoni the same way I feel about Terry Matalas. So many people see them as franchise saviors, when I just hope they will stay as far away from this material as possible.

    All valid points and I agree that Ahsoka having to learn about choosing between life or death seemed arbitrary. We know from the end of The Clone Wars series that she became disenchanted with the Jedi after falsely being accused of murder & actually left the Order. By the time Star Wars Rebels came around, she had grown up and was assisting in the Rebellion under the name Fulcrum. So what I really want to know ( and what could’ve been explored in the World Between Worlds scenes) was what was she doing when Luke &Co. we’re taking on Vader & Palpatine in episodes IV, V, & VI!

    Both Matalas & Filoni have shown themselves to be competent storytellers in the past, so I wonder how much of the problem with these shows stems from some combination of streaming-era budget/time limitations, coupled with the switch from anthology-based to serial-based storytelling, to just running out of ideas or some X factor or edict coming from the studio. There’s always been bad television, but there seems to be MORE of it in these well-trodden franchises for fear of alienating their fan base and being criticized for trying something new, or blasted for retreading the same old tropes & characters.

    "Unless Morgan Elsbeth knows Thrawn is standing by with a new Alien Horde Army waiting for the hyperspace ring to transport them back to the Home Galaxy, I’m not sure what the high stakes are. They just aren’t there."

    I agree although as a fan of the Zahn novels I think Thrawn (depicted correctly) could be a great villain. The trouble is there is no real reason the heroes should see him as some kind of galaxy level threat unless he has a fleet of star destroyers or something with him. But after all these years do they even know he is alive? Heck maybe he retired and doesn't want to come back.

    But that said I did enjoy the latest episode. Anakin's "test" of Ahsoka make next to no sense to me but was entertaining nonetheless. And the space whale sequence both surprised me and delighted me on a visual level. Also I am a sucker for extra galactic voyages into the truly unknown and while I am guessing they will be dropping the ball in this, I have at least some hope that we will get to see something amazing wherever it is they end up, something to that hopefully transcends the Star Wars aesthetic. If they just end up on some planet with green skinned aliens I will be sorely disappointed because another galaxy should be anything but mundane. This is where the show should dip its toe into something really cosmic, strange and even terrifying.

    @Jason R.

    I wholeheartedly agree & am keeping my fingers crossed for a truly alien galaxy, where either Thrawn is either completely outfitted in new superior alien tech or a wild decaying starcruiser held together by bailing wire, & his own madness.

    Ahsoka is pop-culture sludge. All the substance is "oooh I recognize Anakin." Or "I recognize the Clone Wars".. its akin to hanging a tin foil ball in front of my cat. It impressed people on the surface and they will argue endlessly for substantive it is

    This show is.. blech

    In the books back in the day, the witches of Dathomir were just untrained Force-users who thought what they did was magic.

    Are they changing this to it being outright magic because…..that’s just latest in a long line of sucky ideas that ever sucked.

    So they have Sabine in cuffs fir half the episide, but they let her go and even giver her weapons and equipment bur let's not forget they are going to kill her.

    I hate the "and then" nature of the storytelling in this show. Next week when Ahsoka gets to Thrawn's planet, maybe people will realize that nothing has happened, because it would be the same as if Ahsoka and her friends just followed the bad guy to the planet, and the little skirmishes and plot wrinkles didn't matter. It's not a STORY

    AHSOKA Episode 6

    We finally get to see both Thrawn & Ezra in this ep. I would've loved to have gotten where we are in the story now by episode 3. Ray Stevenson & Lars Mikkelson provide most of the energy on-screen at this point, and it's a welcome change to the slooow page turning we've gotten from this script so far.

    Since they have carried over a few actors who voiced their characters in the animated series, I feel they missed an opportunity to bring back Taylor Gray who voiced Ezra. He has aged the right amount, and has the sort of edgy, scruffy look they went for with the new actor. Taylor is an on-camera actor, so the transition should have been an easy one.

    I enjoyed the look of Thrawn's dilapidated star cruiser, and the junked out armor on his Troopers. His crew appear to be loading bodies or something from the catacombs, and with Nightsisters on board, I'm concerned we're moving into some kind of "Walking Dead" scenario.With only 2 eps left, I don't see them wrapping this up as a stand alone miniseries as I hoped. Ray Stevenson's ex-Jedi obviously has an ulterior motive neither Morgan or Thrawn is aware of, but how that will play out (now that, sadly, this wonderful actor has died) remains to be seen.

    “So they have Sabine in cuffs fir half the episide, but they let her go and even giver her weapons and equipment bur let's not forget they are going to kill her.

    All three are variables he hadn’t accounted for, they are also inconsequential. Rather than order their deaths and potentially risk unnecessary losses, he sent them out to fight amongst themselves whilst he focuses on what he needs to do to get back.

    I'd recommend people watch Andor. That is proper Star Wars. Good storytelling, world building, purpose, characters, acting, beautiful music soundtrack, incredible speeches, spy thriller from a talented writing team who actually seem to care about quality.

    The "Mando" stuff is very cheap and gimmicky nothing like Episodes 1 to 6 of the Star Wars saga. It comes across even more as bad once you see Andor and what a Star Wars show COULD and SHOULD be like. I.e. like the movies - space opera epics. The "Mandoverse" (sigh) all leads to the atrocious Disney sequels. They truly are mediocre at best and it is truly sad that some people appear to worship these low quality shows like sunshine comes out their backside.

    As for Ahsoka, it is typical Filoni nonsense. His stuff in "TCW" and "Rebels" was childish writing often openly contradicting the movies (e.g. chips ruining the clones, cartoonish villains with no nuance, Grievous always running away and hardly being any threat at all, immediately no clones after ROTS, Inquisitors, Maul). Ahsoka herself can be a great character, though she shouldn't be the Padawan of Anakin Skywalker since she is very obviously NOT in the movies. Her being alive by this point in time after ROTJ is even worse. And of course ALL OF THIS LEADS TO THE DISNEY SEQUELS! It's like knowing you have a stop to step off the luxury train at Station 6. After that, the lunatics take over the locomotive and entertainment. The only stop after that is off the edge of a cliff into an abyss of despair with no hope of return called Station 7 TFA. All this Mandoverse stuff is the cheap gimmicky entertainment of Filoni and his jesters. If you choose to board, you have (pardon the pun) "No way out". If you choose the quick and easy path, you will become an agent of evil. Or you have "One way out" and have some standards at Happy Ending Station 6.

    The Ahsoka show should have been Live action Clone Wars with her as the Padawan of a Jedi other than Anakin. And managed by someone competent (NOT FIloni). There are so many brilliant Star Wars comics from the George Lucas era of superb stories revolving around the Clone Wars over 3 years. You could have even had episodes with Anakin and Obi Wan in there if you wanted (Battle of Jabiim etc). Have Expanded Universe writers like James Luceno or Andor's Tony Gilroy as the creative lead.

    This show seems to basically be another season of "Rebels" in live action making it virtually impossible to pick up for anyone who hasn't seen that show (as well as countless TCW episodes). It is typical Filoni style storytelling and NOT how the Star Wars movies worked. It's typical jangle the keys, mystery boxes, flashy action with quite cheap looking CGI, flashbacks (which are more interesting than whatever the story is meant to be showing again that a show should just be made about the prequel era or prior), no clear direction and seemingly no good writing.

    It's not like the actors are bad. The lady playing Sabine can certainly act in other franchises and looks hot. Dawson can also act in other movies, but appears monotone here. Mary Elisabeth Winstead can certainly act in all her other work and very well. Yet the director here has scenes of characters talking slowly and staring at each other. There doesn't appear to be any setup, so anyone who hasn't seen Rebels, how on Earth would you know what is going on or who anyone at all is? If the situation is so serious, then in addition, wouldn't the Jedi (i.e. LUKE SKYWALKER) be involved!!

    This show doesn't have good storytelling. It's just following the Mandoverse modus operandi of jangle some keys to set up other shows without telling any story, or certainly not a story that makes sense or worth telling - and by worth meaning worthy of being Star Wars. Star Wars is clearly missing George Lucas. At the very least there were talented EU writers (Luceno, Zahn to name just two) who were great writers. Tony Gilroy and his team also have great writers. All of those greats respected George, respected the franchise and have serious writing talent. Filoni is just a hack. The only thing that could make his shows any worse would be JJ directing them.

    Lightsaber stabs apparently don't kill now. Damn. Qui Gon Jinn anyone? Did Filoni not see what a lightsaber did to the Blast door in the opening scenes of TPM? You're telling me a lightsaber going through a torso wouldn't be fatal? Seriously?

    Even if you can forget that ALL of this crap is going to lead to the Disney sequels, the characters from all sides all seem to behave in the most illogical way possible. The premise itself makes no sense. An ancient map leading to a present day character. Assassin droids who announce their self destruct sequence and also hang about after they complete their mission to retrieve an item. If JJ was involved in this, he would have had an even bigger Starkiller base showing at the end of Episode 5 when Ahsoka is pulled out of the water, just randomly appearing and destroying a planet of randoms. They gave us big belly Stormtroopers in TFA, now they give us big belly Thrawn. Only a few episodes left and it already looks like it's just going to end so that you have no clear story in this series and have to watch a Mandoverse movie. A movie that will probably make no sense whatsoever to anyone who hasn't seen a coterie of various shows - animated and live action written by a coterie of various hacks. It's all so cartoonish.

    Whatever cargo is being loaded onto Thrawn's ship, they just decided to do so now, not earlier all this time? The music also felt really cheap and out of place. Anakin (great sword fighting from Hayden, credit where credit is due for that) interacting with Ahsoka to give the lesson of "live or die" made little sense. Fair play to the young Ahsoka actor who at least showed some emotions/passion unlike any of the main characters in the show (which is bizarre given they literally have got a good cast here UNLIKE the Disney sequels).

    I cannot believe Star Wars has been reduced to the Disney sequels and these nonsensical shows. Imagine a world where Star Wars was Episodes 1 to 6, Rogue One, Andor, George's intended Episodes 7 to 9 (which would have stuck with the family saga, Darth Talon, the Whills, reunifying the galaxy with a single 9 episode storyline) with a happily ever after, a live action Clone Wars political thriller by the Andor team, live movies of James Luceno's Labyrinth of Evil, Darth Plageuis & Rise of Darth Vader, the Underworld show George planned, live action KOTOR movies and an animated/CGI version of the Zahn's Thrawn trilogy. Preserving the prestige as a timeless brand and making far more money than these hopeless Disney sequels/Filoni ever did or ever will (which the original Star Wars movie did when adjusting for inflation).

    No Rey. No Filoniverse. Basically... no crap. But no, instead we have the Filoniverse*. And it seems Star Wars dies... with thunderous applause by a small amount of people.

    After Andor Season 2, it looks like Star Wars will go back to having nothing new of quality worth turning up for. The original 6 episode saga will still be timeless. I respect Rogue One and Andor for honouring Lucas' galaxy. As for the rest, what a truly sad ending for perhaps the best franchise of all time.

    *And more Rey movies.... Goodness gracious, WTF doesn't even cut it. Utterly laughable. Disney and the critics are completely out of touch with reality. And still don't get the saga was a family space opera.

    My observation is rhetorical. There is always a way to rationalize anything. My point is overall the show us pedantic storytelling, lacking punch and excitement. This is Star Wars.. instead of staging an interesting rescue or escape, the writer just let's her go and we have to excuse it in order to get through it

    We've always known what Star Wars looks like. With the Andor show... we know what it means

    I thought this was the strongest episode so far. Thrawn feels like an interesting character and maybe the first general I remember in Star Wars who isn't a bumbling half-wit cowering under a Dark Jedi/Sith. I liked how he manipulated the mercenaries against Sabine AND Ezra, while he could comfortably focus on retaking the story's prime galaxy.

    It also stands out that the Empire's spirit remains intact (we notice a bit of pride the soldiers carry in tradition and ceremony despite their armor and entire ship torn to rubble) which contrasts with the New Republic which is overfocused on bureaucracy.

    I'm not much of a fan of Ezra's casting so far, but maybe he'll look more the part with a clean shave. At least Sabine's quest to find Ezra was cute and sparked memories of their adventures in Rebels.

    “My observation is rhetorical. There is always a way to rationalize anything. My point is overall the show us pedantic storytelling, lacking punch and excitement. This is Star Wars.. instead of staging an interesting rescue or escape, the writer just let's her go and we have to excuse it in order to get through it”

    It is entirely consistent with Thrawn’s modus operandi.

    @JC anything can be consistent if you explain it away as such
    Please note that the majority of people tuning in, Thrawn isn't even a character yet. Most people tuning in have nit watched the after school animations that led to this.

    Anyhow, I found his introduction underwhelming.
    Luthen feels like a smarter and more cunning Chara


    "We've always known what Star Wars looks like. With the Andor show... we know what it means."

    Exactly. Whereas with the Disney sequels/Filoniverse/Mandoverse, they neither look like Star Wars nor have any of its soul/meaning. In fact, they don't even look like Star Wars in many cases and the viewer will more often than not wonder what is the meaning of any of it.

    @Darth Plageous

    Yes.. even the lightsaber fights, which was the hallmark of excitement, now seem tedious and boring, I groan as I watch then in the new shows


    Exactly. That's what I was saying with my initial comment above (which is as long as a Review I guess!).

    Andor is quality and what Star Wars should and can be like. Star Wars Episodes 1 to 6 of the Saga (which are ultimately the only definitive story the original creator/author intended other than his three films which we never got), the lightsaber battles mean something. There is actually a story.

    These other shows (Filoniverse/Disneyverse) are just utterly utterly mediocre. Senseless and aimless.

    If Tony Gilroy and his team and the likes of James Luceno or Jonathan Nolan were the Heads of the Writing room, Star Wars would be in a much much better place. The franchise is missing the creative vision of George Lucas who started it and enough people who respect (and care about) what he created.

    The Disney sequels effectively have to be expunged, obliterated, totally destroyed from the canon. Shows should focus on events before the "happily ever after" of ROTJ (whether that is years, or thousands of years before) and be helmed by people who have writing talent and who give a damn about what they're doing with respect to the franchise they are being given custodianship of to handle with their story. Jangling the keys here and there isn't telling a story let alone destroying pre-established canon in the saga.

    I would love to see an Andor style thriller set just before TPM (or even thousands of years before), or during the Clone Wars helmed by the Andor/Rogue One team. I'll always love "Star Wars", but Star Wars doesn't seem to exist anymore and has been replaced by whatever the hell this Filoniverse/Disneyverse is.

    @Darth Plageous
    I really loved reading both of your long posts. I agreed which is why I didn't say anything.
    I'll take Andor Season 2 as my swan song, bookend to star wars. The other things they seem to be cooking up don't excite me the way the franchise used to.

    Andor has "therefore" storytelling.. not "and then" plotting, and that means most of the story elements seem inevitable as opposed to random.. inevitable because different characters.. more like their different worldviews..all clash. And instead of feeling at all contrived, every turn I the story seemed earned.

    Love how Nemik, the true believer, didn't sleep the night before thr Alsahni heist. Cassian, who was just in it for his take, slept well. But in the prison, the night before the escape, he was awake all night. Finally a case to fight for.. and he depending on those around him


    Thanks. Just wrote what I thought. It's heartening to see there are other people of good taste and standards out there!

    For sure, I'm looking forward to Andor Season 2. I wish we were getting 3 seasons of it overall (I understand the logic of not being able to go on for many years given the actors playing younger versions of themselves than the anthology movie), but I'm grateful that we have 2 and that the production team are great writers who have an overall outline (in this case leading right into Rogue One) and who clearly seem to put a lot of effort into the final product. Fully agreed on the other shows which just don't feel like Star Wars.

    That's a great analogy on "therefore" versus "and then". It's a case of quality versus "and then" over and over again where there isn't any plot, nor logic, nor feeling to what's happening.

    Yes, the realism of Andor was awesome. The Aldhani heist was 100% thriller with brilliant dialogue, suspense, payoff and motivations coupled with tense moments and truly beautiful cinematography. It's movie level quality. Nemik's speeches were also really powerful. Similarly, even the Empire at the ISB provides their own rationale which makes sense. And of course Luthen's "What do I sacrifice? .... EVERYTHING!" speech was really well done. The prison escape great action and Cassian's subsequent remembering of his father and mother, really gave the feels along with him then listening to Nemik's words in the final episode.

    I'd also say another aspect of the show was the music. The soundtrack/the composer really managed to create feeling. Characters had a purpose, motivations and logically fit into the story and universe.

    Likewise, I will take Andor Season 2 as a fitting tribute and part of Star Wars. I can only hope that one day, such a team takes over and gives us such real Star Wars again. May the Force be with us all.

    @Darth Plageous
    Thank you for that compliment. I don't have a lot to say save that I agree with all points I consider it a long movie and it's one of my favorite of speculative fiction in a long time, star wars or not. It's so dramatically sounded, and layered enough to give me something to think.
    Oh the music? I listen to the score whole driving. It underscores the scenes perfectly

    The diagetic music is fantastic as well.. like the fact that it really sounds like a community marching band and a real funeral. Normally I'd be skeptical, but using the theme of the show in the March is brilliant.

    Also Bittel's score is just perfect in other places, like when the prisoners are climbing to escape.

    It's a show that I will always hold close to me


    100% agreed. Andor is like a high quality epic long movie. A spy thriller in Star Wars.

    The music is sublime for sure. The Past/Present, Mirror, Morning After (with Luthen laughing at what they pulled off), Manifesto, Vault and absolutely the Eulogy really fits the scene. The way the music just fits the rousing speech being given. Cassian remembering his father. The main theme music of the show is really well utilised to convey the right sense of emotion at the time just like the movies. From the funeral, to climbing to freedom in the prison and "red alert" music of the Airbase.

    Fully agreed on it being a great show. Bittel's score makes it all the more legendary.

    @Darth Plageous
    I think there will be quite a few people who may find it boring now.. one day will try it with a different mindset and appreciate it later

    @Darth Plageous
    I love listening to score while driving or writing. In addition to the prices you mentioned, I like Luthen of Coruscabt, where Luthen makes his transformation in episode 4.

    It's a great score because it underscores the scenes

    It's been ages since I commented on anything, and I'm glad we have this thread to discuss Ahsoka, because the rest of the internet seems to have lost its mind over this show and I simply do not get it at all.

    This might be my exit ramp for Star Wars. Like some of the above posters, I'm going to enjoy the next season of Andor when it comes out, but everything else in Disney's era has left me unsatisfied, save The Last Jedi, parts of Rogue One, and I'd reasonably argue s01-02 of Mando (right until CGI Luke shows up).

    I won't watch two full series of animated children's television just to have a firm grasp on what's happening in a live action IP universe.

    I won't pretend the swordfight choreography, once a highmark of this franchise (even when ridiculous), has been turned into something rote.

    I won't keep watching stories that regurgitate the same time period over and over and over, increasingly stretching credibility by treading on ideas and characters and story we already know while bending itself into pretzels trying to connect dots on previous films/shows (how many times are we going to question where Luke is, or Leia, or even Han?). Which mainly leads me to...

    I (and we) shouldn't have to suffer through more risk-adverse brand management masquerading as storytelling. Besides Andor, the last true "swing" Lucasfilm/Disney took with this franchise was The Last Jedi, a flawed, thrilling film that managed to reset everything, actually "say" something, and set up the third film to be whatever it wanted to be... Which was absolutely necessary, as JJ's choices in TFA are a mix of rehash, handwaves, open questions, and genuinely terrible worldbuilding. When a vocal minority of SW fans went rabid, Disney panicked, brought JJ back, and pretty much ruined their IP for years to come with ROS ("Somehow Palpatine..." Indeed).

    It's heartbreaking. Growing up, Star Trek made me think (with a few tearjerker moments), but Star Wars made me FEEL, and imagine, and dream of being a Jedi someday. Now all I see is another portfolio of content that feeds the Disney+ beast, with no true visionary at the helm (Filoni, as someone said above, might be a superfan, but he's no Lucas, and his live action stuff is absolutely flat). Star Trek, sadly, is suffering a similar fate over at Paramount+.

    If they won't start new IPs, these creative corporate behemoths should at least give us original stories within the IP, and/or hand the keys over to genuinely-talented writers who will take risks with their stories. If they can't even manage that... I, someone who writes scripts for a living, might end up throwing in the towel and devoting all my "media" time to reading, where originality is alive and well, and doesn't require a monthly subscription to mediocrity.

    "risk-adverse brand management"

    That's a good phrase, I'm going to steal that.


    "the rest of the internet seems to have lost its mind over this show and I simply do not get it at all."

    You and me both.


    I think a Youtuber put it best that Andor was "the best show at the worst possible time". A lot of people have probably been put off Star Wars by the nonsensical shows and Disney sequels that have come before resulting in not many people being aware of it, except by word of mouth, or else just avoiding anything Star Wars related point blank. What is bizarre though is people who then tune in for the Ahsoka show or Mandolorian which are both shows that tie in to the Disney sequels themselves unlike Andor which is a spy thriller set during the time of the Star Wars saga (Episodes 1 to 6).

    The Star Wars films were always about story and any action took second place to the story and took place only where there was a context for it to happen. Same happens with Andor. Whereas a lot of these other shows that "wave the keys" are just mindless action without any substance, story or purpose. The type to call Andor "boring" would probably call the pre Battle of Hoth part of the Empire Strikes Back "boring". It is sad if people cannot appreciate nuance and subtlety and good storytelling. It heartens me to see though that gradually more and more people are mentioning it, commending its quality and now finally opening their eyes to what Star Wars could and should be like.

    Great call on the Luthen of Coruscant soundtrack. And yes, spot on about the soundtrack overall! It's a masterpiece that really suits the scenes and works in harmony with the show!


    "the rest of the internet seems to have lost its mind over this show and I simply do not get it at all."

    THIS. It is bizarre. Basically like the old fable of "The Emperor without Clothes". I truly cannot understand this thunderous applause for the Ahsoka show (or Mandolorian) or Filoni's constant lunacy. One would hope that the quality show that was Andor would have been like the child in the fable who pointed out that the Emperor was in fact stark naked.


    Similar feelings here which is sad because I really love Star Wars - i.e. George Lucas' Star Wars, but sadly Star Wars is no longer Star Wars. As Yoda would say, "The franchise you loved, gone it is. Twisted by the dark side. Consumed by evil." Rogue One and Andor are really the only bastions of Star Wars left.

    I feel sad that we aren't getting the supposed 3 seasons of Andor that were being planned. I get that they couldn't go for 5 seasons because the actors would have aged and they're meant to be playing younger versions of themselves than in Rogue One. Ultimately they settled on going for 2 seasons when they started making it, but it seems it was reduced from budgeting for 3 not because of any weakness in their own proposed story, but because of all the crap of the other shows which were (rightly) poorly received or poorly performed (Filoniverse, Mandoverse mediocrity).

    I am looking forward to Season 2 of Andor. Season 1 itself and Rogue One can be rewatched and enjoyed along with George's Star Wars saga timeless episodes. But after Andor is finished, it looks like Star Wars may be truly gone. "Once down the dark path you go, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    Unless George himself or Tony Gilroy (show runner for Andor) was given creative control, I can't really see those in charge actually caring about quality storytelling or the franchise itself. They seem hell bent on doubling down on nonsense instead. "Twice the pride, double the fall". And we all pay for their "lack of vision".

    I totally agree on the ludicrousness of Filoni. He has always been like this. He destroys any pre-existing story and logic of the original movies for childish and nonsensical concepts that he puts into his shows openly contradicting the movies. He also destroys the lore written in the original Expanded Universe novels where authors like James Luceno always respected George's story and "rules" when writing stories set during the time period of the saga. Filoni is a complete hack. No storytelling ability and no logic. No nuance whatsoever to the story. Villains will quite literally be cartoonishly villain and incredibly incompetent, with any tension coming from the heroes being even more incompetent purely for the sake of the poor writing.

    Spot on about where Leia, Han and Luke are! Where is the Jedi Order ("Pass on what you have learned")! These guys should not be in charge of any story after ROTJ since they don't even grasp the premise of George's saga. Frankly out of respect to the man who gave us Star Wars, only George's envisioned sequels (part of his overall story premise over his intended 9 episodes) should have been made as official movies. It would be better for Lucasfilm to have focused on making anthology films that respect the canon (like Rogue One), shows in the period that again respect the canon written by high quality writers (like Andor), and focus on making movies set long before The Phantom Menace. That way the story and "happily ever after" of our heroes would always be preserved. Rather than broken cheaply. I cannot believe we missed George's story which had Darth Talon, Luke rebuilding the Jedi, Leia reunifying the galaxy.

    As for Thrawn, the book Thrawn was a masterful tactician and legendary Grand Admiral. Filoni's villains are just totally incompetent. And like you said, this show is almost completely inaccessible to someone watching just this show. Usually a Star Wars story is a self contained story which can be understood and enjoyed by watching that alone. You never needed to read subsection D of paragraph X or Comic Book Q or see Show Y from Season A as well as Cartoon 10 on Channel XD to make sense of something. This is basically a sequel Rebels Season masquerading as a show.

    I totally agree on JJ being a complete moron. TFA ruined the saga if one takes it as canon. Personally I do not. I'd only take George's original intended story as the definitive story. The only thing that could make the Ahsoka show any worse would be if JJ was directing it. The "plan" of Thrawn would probably be to turn up, magically have a Starkiller Base 2 (not even part of the plot until it just is) randomly appear and destroy a planet that looks like Tatooine. And a bunch of pilots in ships that look identical to X wings destroy it. Ezra would have gone to the dark side for no reason. Kill a hero for no reason. And then get beaten by a random street urchin for again no reason. Be reporting to a random new dark sider contradicting the entire premise of 6 episodes of the saga for again no reason. And then a chasm would appear for no reason.

    I concur on Star Trek. I really enjoyed watching one of the classic Star Trek movies the other day (The Voyage Home). And was watching the 90s Star Trek TNG (The Next Phase) and Voyager (Blink of an Eye) over the last week. Those were some damn good shows. Great television and great Star Trek. I miss that type of Star Trek. I think what is missing is the original ethos of the people who created these franchises. And the writers who honoured their vision and had some writing talent. At least if Tony Gilroy could helm Star Wars, then maybe Star Wars could be redeemed. But it looks like the lunatics have taken over the asylum.


    Lunatics imply passion! I think these days it's more like, "That nice mid-manager guy who does average work, been here for years, plays by the rules, doesn't rock the boat, but the workers seem to like him... Let's put him in charge."

    In most work environments that's fiiiiiiine. But when you're dealing with art? The last thing you want is a yes-man at the helm. You also don't want a raging asshole running things (being liked is valuable), but the captain of a film/show/creative enterprise needs VISION. Any competent schmuck can keep the status quo humming along; a real leader blazes a new trail, and inspires the team to come along.

    This is something that's plaguing creative output in general right now. Media companies have been so IP-obsessed for so long that most writers don't really write to get their own stuff made anymore... It's all sample work so they can get assigned to whatever preexisting property the production company is prioritizing that quarter. If you want a paycheck, you HAVE to be a yes-man. Maybe some writers out there like that system, but to me... It's absolutely soul-draining.

    Can it work sometimes? Sure! BARBIE is a fantastic example of making art despite the limitations. But that's some serious lightning-in-a-bottle magic, and I think Hollywood is going to learn all the wrong lessons from its success, just like Lucasfilm/Disney learned all the wrong lessons from THE MANDALORIAN becoming a hit.

    All to say, in this modern age, most of the time you get MANDO, sometimes you get ANDOR... but really, I'm craving something new altogether. "Let the past die," as Kylo Ren put it.

    PS -- I really miss old-school Trek as well. DS9 was my main jam.


    Well, for a penultimate episode this didn't really answer a lot of questions & there is a LOT to wrap up if episode 8 is a series finale. My guess is that it's setting things up for a Season 2, or connections to other upcoming streaming series.

    The Original Trilogy packs more storytelling into its 6+ hours of screen time than this whole series. Ezra & Sabine had a well-defined relationship in the Rebels series & Sabine has apparently come to love him as at least a brother, if not more, and possibly sacrifices the fate of the entire Galaxy to find him--yet the scenes of their reunion lack any real depth or emotion! In the caravan scene where Sabine gives Ezra the "cliff notes" version of what happened in the last decade, you'd think they were nothing more than old co-workers just playing catch-up on what happened while they were away from the office. Ahsoka is the one that finally shows some heart & gives Ezra a big hug--and she was only a recurring character in the Rebels series.

    Ray Stevenson as Baylan continues to intrigue as he seems intent on bringing down EVERYONE to stop the cycle of "The fall of the Jedi, the rise of the repeats again...and again....and again." I think it's insightful (and a bit meta) when you have one of the characters in the story realize how REPETITIVE all this is starting to feel. It would be wonderful to see him upend everyone's plans in a way no one (good guys or bad guys) anticipated.

    I hope Filoni has a game plan because as @AthenaCompany beautifully stated above, this really has become "risk-adverse brand management masquerading as storytelling." That quote should be a frikkin' headline in Variety or The Holly wood Reporter because SO many series/films these days seem to be afflicted with this disease.

    Whatever Thrawn has up his sleeve, I hope it's horrifyingly fantastic, because up to this point, apart from appearing cold-hearted & pragmatic, he has shown himself to be no real threat. When Vader first appeared in Star Wars he came bursting onto a starship with his stormtroopers & choking the life out of its crew--we KNEW he was the villain. Dammit, show the audience members who are not familiar with Thrawn why everyone should fear him!

    I don't think Barbie is a good example at all. That was a movie I expected to be way smarter and more radical than it was. It was also quite clearly made as a defense of a product targeted in a way its consumers of today would accept, rather than something which spoke from an independent, creative vision. In other words - what Hollywood has been doing forever.

    @Michael To each their own! I didn't think Barbie was an out-and-out masterpiece -- and I agree, not as radical as it could've been -- but it was never going to go TOO far. There are limits to how hard you can bite the hand that feeds you (though I'm still surprised Mattel let them take the piss out of their brand the way they did).

    Considering the schlock it might've been, it was probably the best version of one of these IP "brand-building" films we're ever gonna get. I saw Greta's intent behind the film, it was coherent and had a point. It made me laugh constantly, but also moved me at the end... And there was actual CRAFT to it, especially in the production design and costuming. Just as a bonus, it's clear the cast had the time of their lives making it. A lot of joy radiated from that project.

    I see no joy in Disney's recent output. Not from the creative, not from the process. Hell, when you go to the parks (I was just there a few weeks ago), a third of the rides are closed and the cast members are clearly checked out. Something's really wrong in the House of Mouse, Lucasfilm or otherwise.

    @Darth Plageous

    Have you tried watching Andor in black and white? It's incredible..

    Not to go over old ground too much, but Andor season 2 is the only thing I'm looking forward to. The leaked footage looks amazing.

    Everything else is just empty calories and jangled keys


    I haven't tried that, but I'm sure it's epic. Andor is like a spy thriller, WWII classic war film, Star Wars all in one. Truly incredible.

    Trying to keep spoiler free, but I might watch the trailer for Season 2 when it comes out. I liked the trailers for Season 1.

    100% concur on the other shows being sheer lunacy basically of jangled keys and mediocrity.

    I too am looking forward to Andor Season 2. To paraphrase Luthen, "I need all the true Star Wars heroes I can get!"

    @Darth Plageous

    A guy in YouTube discussed how awesome it was in black and white and showed a few clips. Takes a lot if "star wars" out of it for a feeling of raw history.
    My TV has all the settings as I want then but I switched my computer to be black and white. Will try to check it this weekend

    Perhaps the best thing Lucasfilm has done is to pet Gilroy run that show with no petty meddling.
    Even as a kid I always wanted both my star trek and my star wars to be more serious than not. I felt it would feel more legitimate

    Part Seven: Dreams and Madness:

    Well, this was just kind of there.

    I was expecting more this far into the season.

    I mean.... Ahsoka does the Jedi jump out of a spaceship thing and ends up fighting Baylan for what? She just says I'm outta here... why stop and fight then? Good thing Sabine and Ezra were able to handle all those stormtroopers..., eh?

    I was ready for the stormtroopers to turn into dust... but they didn't. Not sure why.

    I don't know if it's the direction or the actors, but everything seems slow... laboring... Sabine and the General lead the pack in this regard.

    We have a big happy reunion and there is no concern about getting back? Just happy-go-lucky...

    Star Wars royalty enters... nice little cameo by C-3PO.

    Nice to hear Claudia Black's voice once again.

    Only one episode left... not sure how they wrap this up.

    I guess we'll see.

    2.5 stars

    Someone needs to teach Industrial Light and Magic about orbital mechanics. You can’t place mines radiating out in all directions from a planet. 😑

    Plus, you’d need 25,000 of them placed 1 mile apart around the equator. And that’s just one ring. They blanketed the entire space in every direction, what, 100 feet apart or less? Where was Grand Admiral Thrawn keeping a billion mines? And how did he have them deployed in less than a day?

    And it was entirely unnecessary. The fighters could have scared the star whales away with blasters, so why the over complication with impossible mines?

    I might enjoy the story more if it wasn’t surrounded by such stupidity.

    Dreams I’m not so sure about but certainly this episode had Madness in abundance.


    That's awesome. Like a war film!

    Yes, that's for sure. The one good thing they have done is let Gilroy - known for his talent - do his thing without petty meddling by the lunatics.

    Star Wars needs either George back at the helm, or someone competent like Tony Gilroy, or the passion of Gareth Edwards given that the latter two both "respect the chair", the franchise's creator and the story.

    Wish we had more shows like Andor.

    Sun, Oct 1, 2023, 6:26pm (UTC -5)
    "I might enjoy the story more if it wasn’t surrounded by such stupidity."

    Ouch. I was going to watch the series, but that sounds positively brain damaged.

    The finale:
    was devoid of themes and substance. The villain was underwhelming and the outcome inevitable. There was literally nothing to this story. The literally could have just wedged these events into a mandalorian episode.
    On a good note, the live action Ezra is pretty cool and better than his animated counterpart.

    The idea of building a lightsaber with various tools found in a ship was offensive to the lore. It should be more than assembling a flash light

    And thus ends Ahsoka, or really what sets up several new spin-off stories. Presumably, a proper sequel will see Ahsoka and Sabine reckoning with whatever Baylin and Shin Hati are instigating in the distant galaxy. Meanwhile, Ezra is back home but extremely rusty. In the (non-canon) novels, Luke apparently dealt with Thrawn when he returned, but we could imagine this version of the story would have Ezra (perhaps training with Luke) and Hera team up to deal with him.

    As for the episode, it was another spectacular light show. There isn’t much time given to character development or concluding arcs. One could say that Sabine finally learned to put faith in her leader Ahsoka, and Ahsoka learned the power of having companions. It’s a simple enough message, and really the writers don’t seem interested in throwing anything complex at us.

    There were moments of this show that were fun; Hayden Christenson was welcome, as were any references to the Rebels story like Kanan. But the show is also slow and insists on setting up for some future, even more climactic battles than what’s given to us on screen. Maybe if I were an old school Ahsoka fan from The Clone Wars I could’ve patiently enjoyed the spectacle of all of it, but as a first-time viewer it would have been nice to have one complete story served up in the eight hours.

    On the positive side, there’s a big push for women’s roles in Star Wars here. Ahsoka is of course, the titular character, and Sabine gets nearly as much screen time and is nearly as important a character. Hera, of course, is the leader and liaison of the New Republic who basically dominates all political aspects of the show. And while Thrawn is given his time, the final battle is really between Lady Morgan Elsbeth and Ahsoka. Women aren’t just aiding sick male Jedi or clinging desperately to mad Sith (*cough* Padme) anymore. It’s something Lucas just wasn’t capable of writing and generally I approve as it expands the Star Wars tent beyond the original target audience of young boys.

    I’m looking forward to seeing what else they can cook up, though I dare say the Star Wars franchise is simply riding the waves of its previously more successful installments, changing little things as it goes.

    If there’s one word I’d use to describe “Ahsoka,” it’d be “ambitious.”

    The show clearly tried to branch out from the mold cast by the original trilogy, then recycled in the sequel trilogy. While much is borrowed from the cartoons, I must give them credit for being a little out of the box for what people have come to expect in Star Wars.

    That said, the pacing was very odd throughout, the Hera scenes went nowhere, and the payoff for everything was lackluster, presumably all just setting up things that we might see resolved in 1-2 years. They also have some major logic problems when you stop to think about what Thrawn, Ezra, and the Night Mothers have or apparently haven’t been up to over the past 15 or so years.

    In the end, I enjoyed aspects of the show and the live action fleshing out of the world, but I probably wouldn’t rewatch much of it. The experience may be saved in a good fan-edit, but even that will ultimately depend upon where the story goes in the future.


    It’s tough calling this episode a FINALE, since it finalized or resolved very little.
    The episode had its high points in action, but we needed more conversations like the one between Ezra & Huang whilst building the light saber.

    After 8 episodes:
    What is Thrawn’s very important cargo from the catacombs that he felt he needed to transport home? Treasure? Corpses of Witches? Parts to assemble a doomsday weapon?

    What is the grand plan of Baylon? What is the significance of the statues he was standing on? Was there more to his story that had to be cut because Ray Stevenson passed on? Will they recast or write his character out?

    What is the mission of Baylon’s apprentice now?

    Did Sabine ever tell Ezra how she came to find him? Or why she felt compelled to help Baylon to do so? In Rebels, the crew of the Ghost really became a family, but very little of the emotion & familial ties that were the strength of that series even appear here.

    Will Ashoka enlist another space whale to get home? Or do they have to wait for the lost crew of the upcoming “Skeleton Crew” series to find them?

    Where was Zeb? They made a CG model of one of the key members of the Rebels series, teased us with him in “The Mandalorian”, and he’s nowhere to be seen in this series.

    I prefer to be told a story, with an actual beginning, middle & end, not just set-up after set-up. Last night I also watched the season finale of “Only Murders in The Building” which, once again presented a satisfying conclusion to the events of this season, while throwing plot twists until the last minute, all while setting up the mystery for the next season.

    We’ve gotten no announcements from LFL/Disney about this at all. Season finale? Series finale? Connection to future projects? In the end, Ezra got home, but so did Thrawn. Now what? Perhaps they SHOULD feed chatGPT all the Star Wars scripts & novels done to date, and let the scripts be churned out by AI,—maybe we’ll get something resembling a cohesive story. This series turned out to be just a series of events that…well, abruptly ended.

    "What is the significance of the statues he was standing on?"

    Looked to me like "the Father", one of three force gods of Mortis encountered by Anakin during the clone wars. (The episodes were in season 4 of the show I think) The Father was supposed to represent balance between the light and the dark.

    "Women aren’t just aiding sick male Jedi or clinging desperately to mad Sith (*cough* Padme) anymore. It’s something Lucas just wasn’t capable of writing and generally I approve as it expands the Star Wars tent beyond the original target audience of young boys."

    Yeah, Leia was such a helpless damsel.

    "Women aren’t just aiding sick male Jedi or clinging desperately to mad Sith (*cough* Padme) anymore. It’s something Lucas just wasn’t capable of writing and generally I approve as it expands the Star Wars tent beyond the original target audience of young boys."

    Yeah, Leia was such a helpless damsel.

    Funny how "modern" critics conveniently forget about that. The damsel had to take charge of her own rescue because the dudes rescuing her hadn't thought through their plan enough. She even saw through Vader's plan to track the Falcon back to the rebel base.

    Padme (her mom) was front and center fighting the political battle against the Emperor's plan to take over. She fought in the arena during the start of the clone wars. She did some clinging in the last movie because she was pregnant. That limited her room to move. But yeah, Lucas didn't know how to write strong women. Only the coffee girl who married Frank Marshall could do that.

    @Cal and Brandon Adams
    I think the point Chrome was trying to make is that no matter how you see Leia or Padme. They were the only prominent women in all the Lucas films and things were mostly done to them. While male leads, good or bad, were numerous and had lots of agency.

    Leia was taken hostage at the beginning of two films and had to be rescued and because she is a woman she had to be the love interest for male leads (first Luke than Han). Padme's main function after the first movie was love interest and pregnant woman. She was also rescued several times.

    The only other female character I remember with more than one or two scenes from all the Lucas movies is Anakin's mother, who is slave, is kidnapped and then dies.


    If I had 1 word to describe this series it'd probably be "amateur".

    The story was lumbering.
    The characters were hollow.
    The themes were vapid.
    The visuals were decent.
    The acting was sub-par.
    The plot holes were numerous.

    And if having many female characters was a boon,
    Then it's ironic that the only vaguely interesting character was Baylon.

    Well, I probably had too much coffee before writing my review but Booming explained my point well.

    Don't get me wrong, Carrie Fisher's Leia was great and it's a credit to her acting, but she's still an auxiliary character despite the story alluding that she's *perhaps as powerful as Luke Skywalker* in The Force. Ahsoka gives all the female characters agency and continuously emphasizes their decisions above the male characters. I may not have the proper equipment to enjoy this angle, but I feel there's a level of engagement for women that some may not be appreciating. And I'm allowing for that in my review.

    About 8 years ago my female friend in Romania watched the original trilogy for the first time. She said that Leia was, from that point on, her favorite female character in film. She was so important to the dynamic among the inherent characters while also being strong and determined on her own.

    She was also witty and funny.

    These new female characters have none of that headstrong energy


    I don't see Leia is an auxiliary character. Of course she's not as important as Luke, but there's always a No. 1 character. Harry Kim is what I'd call an auxiliary character.

    I think Leia's pretty much a main character, a really good character, a strong-willed, capable, intelligent, and resourceful female and definitely something for the female fan. She's become an iconic character and Carrie Fisher has been lauded for the portrayal. I'd have to agree with what "CAL" wrote re. all her contributions to the overall SW original trilogy plot -- spot on.

    Padme, or course, would never equal Leia's impact but her impact was noteworthy as well. So this thing about Lucas not being able to write good female characters or whatever, I don't see it that way.

    I didn't get my wish as far as the portrayal of a new galaxy (just another planet with ewoks or equivalent) but I have to admit the story still worked for me.

    Love how the entire final act was just Thrawn throwing everything at the Jedi to delay them. This is a villain who actually saw the movies and TV shows and knows from bitter experience you can't beat the good guys, so just stall stall stall till they run out of time and can't follow you. I love how ruthlessly pragmatic the guy is. He just casually asks the nightsisters to perform necromancy and takes it in stride, deploying their bizarre sorcery as nonchalantly as he would a wing of tie fighters.

    The undead stormtroopers were hilarious and a great call back to the Clone Wars (I liked the exchange between Ezra and Ahsoka to the effect of "have you ever seen this shit before??")

    Overall an entertaining first act. But if I am going to add one criticism to this it's that Rosario Dawson really tanks the Asohka character with her wooden performance. Just watched the Clone Wars and I definitely found myself wishing they could have just kept the same voice actress for continuity. Dawson's voice just isn't right at all.

    @Jason R
    I found Thrawn to be disappointing. Not just because he was so hyped.. bit there isn't much TO This character. I don't know why he does what he does, why he cares about the Empire, or anything really about him. To compare, look at Luthen. He's old, this is all he has left to do, and he's so single minded and devoted.

    Whelp, watched the finale, and talk about stalling! It felt a lot more like a preview for future TV shows and FIloni's film that will apparently tie all the Mandoverse stories together. And unless there's a wealth of unreleased footage, none of that will have Ahsoka's best performer, Ray Stevenson.

    Two more words to describe the finale? Plot armor. TIE fighters are unable to hit Ahsoka's *stationary* shuttle, because they're strafing rather than simply hovering and bombarding. Our heroes dodge what has to be supersonic turbolaser fire. They battle dozens of undead stormtroopers and nobody ends up with so much as a scratch.

    I can forgive all that, but putting both Shin and Baylan in scenes lasting less than a minute where they simply stand around and say nothing? I would have preferred if they'd just cut them out of the episode altogether.

    The previous episodes felt like we were leading up to something with both of them. And the show owed it to its audience to cash the checks it wrote.

    Just a deflating ellipsis of a finale. This show had some great moments and reveals, but ended up doing nothing with them.

    And hey, I know I can respond by not paying for Disney+ anymore and washing my hands of the whole venture, but I'm not going to do that, because I like Star Wars and as long as they churn out live action content I'll keep consuming it. So I'm really just shouting into the shadows in the starlight. ;)

    "Jason R
    I found Thrawn to be disappointing. Not just because he was so hyped.. bit there isn't much TO This character. I don't know why he does what he does, why he cares about the Empire, or anything really about him."

    Fair point. We still have no idea why he gives a crap about bringing back the empire other than some vague affinity for "order" or whatnot.

    @Chrome @Booming

    Leia was literally one of the main characters of Episodes 4 to 6 of George's saga. Chronologically in terms of the release order of the movies, she is literally the first main "hero"/"good guys" character even seen on the screen! And in George's intended sequel trilogy would have been a primary character as well (along with the Skywalker descendants) in the political end of the story of reunifying the galaxy into a New Republic. Hell, even Yoda explicitly states "There is another" and Obi Wan confirms that "the other he spoke of was your twin sister."

    Padme is again one of the main characters of Episodes 1 to 3. The mother of Luke and Leia. Both Padme and Leia are key characters in the family saga and characters who have motivations, struggles and are shown to be determined in the face of adversity. The mother has to contend with her planet being invaded and the Senate doing nothing. The daughter quite literally watches her planet get obliterated by the villains and still keeps fighting.

    The notion that a character getting "rescued" somehow takes away from their strength is utterly ludicrous. Luke himself got rescued in ANH (by Obi Wan and Han), ESB (by his friends/sister) and ROTJ (by his father). Han Solo got rescued by his friends/future wife. Padme got rescued. Anakin got rescued. Obi Wan got rescued. Hell Papa Palpatine also got rescued. Darth Vader got rescued. Two of the greatest villains of all time got rescued. Yoda got rescued.

    R2D2 rescued a hell of a lot of people over the course of 6 movies.

    There were also multiple female Jedi on screen including on the Jedi Council itself in Episodes 1 to 3. The story was a family saga and tended to focus on the family itself, but in the course of covering galactic events, many characters - men and women from various species make appearances throughout Episodes 1 to 6. Mon Mothma (including in ROTJ). The ET species in the Senate.

    All of those characters had meaning, substance, etiquette etc far more than the disastrous Disney sequels which have nothing to do with Episodes 1 to 6 nor what the creator of the franchise intended.

    That's just the movies. If you go by the Expanded Universe novels and comics, they include multiple female characters including Jedi Masters and Padawans as lead characters who are fully developed, meaningful and interesting characters (Clone Wars/Empire era: Aayla Secura, Olee Starstone) respecting George's vision. Post ROTJ imagined material also included such characters (Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Darth Talon etc). Rogue One also had Jyn Erso as a main character. There are multiple key female characters in Andor - a well written Star Wars thriller.

    All of them are far better written characters than rude Rey and the various Filoni nonsense.

    As for Ashoka, what is bizarre is that they had a talented cast who can clearly act elsewhere in other films/shows yet the whole thing felt so much like you were watching something being acted out rather than immersed in a galaxy far far away. Obviously it is set in the deluded post ROTJ Disney sequel/Filoni universe, but still, the level of ridiculousness is incredible. No writing quality at all. No logic. No story basically.

    Aside from having a competent writer who respects George's created franchise (whether that is new people like Gilroy, Jonathan Nolan, or EU writers like James Luceno), ultimately you need a proper setting for the story. A post ROTJ story is flawed from the beginning unless you're going with George's overall big picture intended sequels (which contained the final happily ever after). Because otherwise all that happens is ruining the happily ever after of that beautiful scene on Endor in ROTJ. It only adds insult to injury that these debacles link to Disney's sequels as well as being written by the Filoni the imbecilic hack.

    The one good thing about this show is hopefully it wakes people up to how useless and destructive Filoni is. He has openly destroyed the established story of the movies with his "additions" with nonsensical so called stories. As well as butchering certain ideas/stories from the Expanded Universe.

    And as for someone's comment above about what Thrawn's containers are, I can only assume that the only thing worth not jumping back immediately must be a massive Twilek harem in stasis. Grand Admiral Thrawn is the Genghis Khan of the Star Wars galaxy.

    On a serious note though, the whole Ahsoka plot makes very little sense. Honestly, it would have been much better to just have a "Clone Wars" streaming show that has a significant budget showcasing the politics, battles and Jedi at war in the Clone Wars itself. Ahsoka could have been a Padawan/Knight of any other Jedi than Anakin. You could have had Anakin and Obi Wan back on screen instead of the Obi Wan show (or else done the book Labyrinth of Evil into a movie). Had multiple Jedi Generals fighting battles - winning and losing. And had Sabine, Hera, and other characters have been characters fighting on either side of the war ("Heroes on both sides" as referred to in ROTS). That would have required a talented writer though. NO WAY IN HELL that Filoni should be in charge of that. Gilroy or James Luceno doing that though, you'd have another winner like Andor. The latter's book "Rise of Darth Vader" is a phenomenal book with a great Jedi Master and Padawan (female) character amongst the "good guy" characters.

    Or else just go back pre TPM with a proper show/movies that do not contradict the saga. Go back 10,000 years if you have to.

    What is crazy is the crazy talk that Star Wars hasn't had female characters or prominent characters who weren't diverse. Star Wars always had that. And it had another thing that made Star Wars what is was - A STORY.

    Deedra Meero
    Vel Sartha
    Mon Mothma

    All female characters from Andor that I find stronger and more compelling than anyone in Ahsoka

    @Darth Plageous
    Agreed on all points.. especially the last one.

    Mandoverse has just become an excuse for itself I need a story. Not just a plot.. something that will get me invested in what happens


    100% truth.

    Maarva was absolutely brilliant. Bix. Dedra. Val. Mon Mothma. Cinta. I would also say Kleya too. Compelling, strong, deep characters.

    Characters like Luthen were superb as well. And of course the titular character Andor, his father Clem, the entire Aldhani team. Each and every character is compelling and has a place in the story.

    There's story, purpose, action, cinematography, sublime music and some really great acting.

    THAT is great Star Wars. The Ahsoka show (and many if not all of the others) don't even remotely compare, and openly go out of their way to desecrate the saga and established lore. Fully agreed on the female characters from Andor.

    Leia is the only prominent female character. I'm certain that if you ask 100 casual viewers of the original Star Wars movies or the prequels to name three female characters, they would not be able to.

    Are you really arguing that the ratio of female and male prominent characters was anything but strongly tilted towards male?

    Let's name the prominent male characters just from the original movies.
    - Han
    - Luke
    - Darth Vader
    - Chewabacca
    - Lando
    - Yoda
    - Emperor
    - Obi Wan

    Name one female character that had more screen time than any of these besides Leia?

    Oh and I'm in not way saying that the characters in Ashoka are good. I know more about the Indian Ashoka than about this show. I was just commenting on what Chrome said and adding that if you couldn't identify with Leia you were just out of luck.

    "I'm certain that if you ask 100 casual viewers of the original Star Wars movies or the prequels to name three female characters, they would not be able to"

    Well if you are including the prequels at least we get Padme.

    Let's not be unfair and take the originals out of context. There wasn't internet diversity police back when the OT was made.. the story was meant to emulate the kind of pulp adventures that were, by enlarge, targeted to boys. Its just a fact. As much of a fact as it is to say that Superman was targeted to children when he was created, which is why BvS seems awkward because parents weren't sure if they could take their kids to film starring Superman.

    That the original trilogy git one of the most iconic headstrong female characters ever was fantastic

    Oh and Mon Mothma too

    Just my 2 cents re: Princess Leia

    Having seen Star Wars in the theater in 1977, one of the things that was very obvious was how George Lucas was making an homage to the old-time serials while ALSO poking fun at some of the worn-out tropes, particularly like "the damsel in distress".
    Part of the humor in the Death Star escape attempt was how the men came in to rescue her, didn't really have a plan, and how she had to help blast their way out. That was a new spin!

    More trope-smashing happened again in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" with Indy knocking out the guard to steal his clothes--but (realistically) they didn't fit! Or finding Miriam alive in the tent & really pissing her off by leaving her behind so as not to blow their cover. Both of those scenes played out much differently than what we were used to seeing in those kinds of films.

    All of these things were fresh & novel twists that have been emulated many times since, but Lucas was very much aware of the genre(s) he was working in & their shortcomings.

    Ok when I hear "internet diversity police" I start to lose interest. Let me make one last point. Andor has several well constructed prominent female characters. Is it better or worse because of that?

    If Andor is better than could one not easily conclude that the original Star Wars movie or the prequels would have been better if they had a more diverse female cast than two literal princesses who are taken hostage almost half a dozen times and are both love interests for the male protagonists? That is the entire argument here. Is that so hard to comprehend?!

    And sure, this is aimed mostly at boys/balding fat guys but if you include almost no female characters than it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Plus, I'm sure that these movies still had a considerable female fan base who would have appreciated more. Looking at the numbers it appears that the female fandom was around 30% at the time.

    "Ok when I hear "internet diversity police" I start to lose interest. Let me make one last point."

    In the name of the Galactic Internet Diversity Police, I place you under arrest.

    Sure, he could have included more female characters.
    Just like TOS could have had better special effects. I mean 2001 was made at the same time.

    But are we going to offload blame onto shows and films that are timeless just to make us feel better with ourselves.

    Please be a bit more fair.

    About the show:

    Zombie stormtroopers?
    Magic spells?
    Swords with Magic green fire?
    I thought this was Star Wars

    @Mercer the witches of Dathomir were already a thing thanks to the Clone Wars where we got to see undead witches versus battle droids.

    "Sure, he could have included more female characters.
    Just like TOS could have had better special effects."
    Wow, just wow. That is not a good comparison.

    "But are we going to offload blame onto shows and films that are timeless just to make us feel better with ourselves."
    Offloading blame?! I'm just saying that they could have been better, that girls could have enjoyed them more and that it is nice to have more female characters in shows like Andor.

    These old Star Wars movies are still good to great. The prequels would still be bad even if they had better female characters.

    But now in the Woketimes, girls can watch for example Andor and enjoy it as much as the boys. I think that's good.

    Most girls who have enjoyed it ... they knew it was geared to boys. They enjoyed the story. They enjoyed it without the need to feel like they were pondered to.

    I mean seriously not everything is about bigotry.

    I mean I see people all over conventions..a lot of women in fact.. dressed like Narkina Five prisoners. Yet.. in the story.. it was only MEN that were prisoners. That was oart of the story. These women who love the show didn't feel segregated.
    And they even dress up the part despite the fact that there were no women prisoners on Narkona Five.

    The problem is this toxicity that people LOOK for when its not out there.
    I was on Facebook was called a misogynist because I hated season 3 of Mandalorian. This confused me. But the person was so desperate to validate his claims that he felt comfortable assuming that I hate women in power (in the form of Bo Katan)

    Be careful .. its the ones who are accusing p2ople of being toxic that I find are the most toxic. They are never satisfied. There can never be enough inclusion.

    Did you know about the reports that Oppenheimer might not be eligible for best picture?

    Why not?

    Because it doesn't meet the absurd diversity quota.

    That's an absurd reason.

    Nit everything is made to be about diversity.


    Star Wars (1977) was a film that barely got made. The studio didn't really support. No one knew what was really happening. Nothing worked. It was behind schedule. Half the money for effects was wasted as ILM had no usable footage. The first edit was a disaster. Eventually they went back and recut it.
    The film came out. Changed movies.. and pop culture over night. Iconic characters, a return to classic storytelling with mythological archetypes and some incredible sound effects, model work and production design. Moved forward.
    Yet now I'm reading co plants thay the film just wasn't diverse enough. Nothing can ever be good just on its own. There has be this constant whining about diversity and inclusion.. people act offended when they really aren't. It's a bunch of bullshit. Seriously

    You seem like a cool guy.. we often agree on things. But not everything can or will include everything. Songs have different styles. Movies are made just to be the movie they are at that moment.

    There is so much attention on the diversity of Star Trek Discovery that it's hard to remember specific stories or dialogue

    The most important thing is to tell a good story, make a good movie or series -- everything else is either 2ndary or unimportant. And for all the obstacles George Lucas had to get past to make SW in 1977, as we all know, he planted a seed that developed into this amazing franchise with millions of fans around the world. I'm just thankful the woke mob wasn't around back then to try to further control Lucas and impose their disingenuous dictates.

    As for DSC, I don't think I've seen anybody on this forum (granted I don't read every single comment) that is calling it great Trek, a great series, even telling good stories. In fact, my impression is it's widely criticized and disliked. But I'd also add that that isn't solely because it's gone woke, but that's certainly a part of it.

    But wait...

    Star wars didn't have female characters in that furst film. Or black characters. Or trans characters. Or characters that identify as cats.

    Its racist. It's sexiat. People that like the first star wars film are bigots who do not want diversity!!!!



    Read my previous comment properly before asking me to “name one character”! Those who do not read are no better than those who cannot read. It goes without saying that the number of characters in a movie who happen to be male or female is irrelevant to whether any of those characters are good well written characters.

    My goodness, to have asked what you did in such a high and mighty attitude suggests you didn’t read my previous comment at all, or cannot read.


    Spot on man. I am grateful to George for what he gave us. His Star Wars is timeless. What a visionary.


    Fully agreed. All the zombies, witches, magic, chips, aimless drift is Filoni and not Star Wars. The only good thing is that this show appears to finally be waking up some people finally to the madness.

    That and seeing YouTubers like Drinker’s discussions on it.

    There’s a decent Reddit thread which highlights many of the points raised in the Comments here and highlighting Andor’s quality, the competence of the Empire and story versus everyone in the Ashoka show:

    @Darth Plageous
    Imma check that out

    I apologize for ranting about the diversity thing. I went too far. Bimit it gets under my skin sometimes.

    Yes. That sword she had with green flames feels more like dungeons and dragons. And star wars ALREADY has the best swords in all of fiction

    @Darth Plageuis

    The issue I have with this diversity thing is how it comes about. So in contrasting Andor and DSC -- with Andor, this is widely lauded as a terrific series, I thoroughly enjoyed it, hope Jammer reviews it. DSC is quite the opposite for me, though it does have its fleeting moments.

    With DSC, the diversity is imposed from the top down. When I watch it, I feel like I'm being dictated to, like I'm watching a quota system in effect. So I can understand where "MercerCreate" is coming from re. his earlier comment.

    With Andor, it just feels so organic. I don't even think of male vs. female characters or diversity and nor should I -- the characters are just right for what their roles are in a greater story. And I think that's how it should be -- focus on getting the story right and let the characters be who they are organically, from the bottom up.


    It seems like more people are seeing what has been there for a long time now regarding quality versus ridiculousness.

    Here’s another decent thread:

    I agree with you. Fake diversity for the sake of it isn’t even real representation. Nor good storytelling. Real storytelling is having a story. Equalising opportunity is a very different concept to equalising results.

    A great female character would be Princess Leia, or the cartoon Mulan. Mace Windu was effectively the most powerful Jedi in the Jedi Order save for Master Yoda himself. In “Lois and Clark/The New Adventures of Superman”, Lois Lane getting rescued by Superman didn’t stop Teri Hatcher’s Lois Lane from being a fabulous female character. Ken Watanabe in the Last Samurai plays a superb character. Ellen Ripley in Alien. Etc etc. As for Star Trek, there were great female characters in the old Star Trek shows - both in the regular Starfleet crews and guest appearances. Even in animation, Francine Smith is a great character in American Dad and doesn’t require others to be put down in order to stand up as a fun interesting character in her own right. In the old Bond movies, Domino in Thunderball and Wai Lin in Tomorrow Never Dies were great characters who fit into a story and Bond’s mission without putting down or sidelining James Bond in each case.

    Star Wars created by George had it all. Rogue One and Andor got it right. The rest though, under Disney, yikes. “Help us Tony Gilroy, you’re our only hope.”


    Exactly man. That’s how it should be. When I watched Star Wars, or the old Bond films, or Andor, Rogue One, Person of Interest, etc, I’m enjoying the story. We’re not thinking about whether the character is male, female, what accent, where the actor is from, etc.

    It’s the story that draws people in. And a great well told and presented story that immerses you into the movie/show.

    I always think of this quote from the late Roger Ebert. It's the very reason, aside from the magic and the space whales and all the garbage that Filoni added to the lore.. the quote below is why Ahsoka show is awful while Andor is excellent:
    "It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it."

    Yeah, ok. I can see where this is going. You got what you wanted so of course you see no problem.

    I just lean back and think of those million debates when guys complained about not enough white heterosexual male representation. mhhhhh

    Despite not backing up any of your arguments at all, I will concede.. you are exactly right. I mean, seriously, "Coming to America " has been one of my top ten films since I saw it in theaters in 1988, yet I've always been angry that there was no proper white representation in it.

    Thank you for explaining why I felt so empty inside

    >There wasn't internet diversity police back when the OT was made..

    May be but there was Usenet, check out this Reddit post:

    Unfortunately Google no longer allows you to search Usenet posts so I'll never know for sure.

    "yet I've always been angry that there was no proper white representation in it."
    That's a silly point to make.

    There were lots of debates about white male representation on this forum.

    You recognize the purposefully silky aspects of my post without seeing the silliness of your own argument.
    "Audiences don't hate diverse characters. What they hate is being slammed as bigots for rejecting bad writing from pretentious activists posing as writers. If the demography of your characters is more important than your story, than your story will probably suck"

    I'm sorry Mercercreate but you are too emotional and irrational to have a reasoned debate with.

    Lol, People keep trying to blame Filoni for stuff from Clone Wars... Maul being brought back, everything to do with the Witches of Dathomir, all Lucas' ideas that Filoni had to roll with. Filoni thought he could make it so the Witch's magic was a different aspect of the Force, George said no. Most of this new lore birthed out of the Clone Wars series is still George Lucas.

    Also, hilarious that the space wizard Jedi are totally fine and acceptable. Great. But WITCHES?! Get outta here, that's the wrong type of space magic. Zombies! What is this nonsense? We only allow Ghosts in this universe, go to your room. Magic swords, pssht! Only various colours of laser swords are allowed... and halberds weilded by green pig-men and big wooden sticks by sand people. And spears used by teddy bears that can fuck up a Stormtrooper even in armour. But a magic katana, no, that stretches all credibility.

    "With DSC, the diversity is imposed from the top down. When I watch it, I feel like I'm being dictated to, like I'm watching a quota system in effect. So I can understand where "MercerCreate" is coming from re. his earlier comment.

    With Andor, it just feels so organic. I don't even think of male vs. female characters or diversity and nor should I -- the characters are just right for what their roles are in a greater story. And I think that's how it should be -- focus on getting the story right and let the characters be who they are organically, from the bottom up."

    Ok let me just say that I am as unwoke as anyone ever was. I used to fall asleep on a five minute bus ride. I am bordering on narcoleptic.

    Buuut can I just point out here the obvious: Andor is a good show and Discovery is a pile of ass.

    Yes modern shows demand a certain level of diversity that didn't exist circa 1995. These are the times. In the 80s characters used a lot of hair spray and a lot of scifi had the word "tron" in it.

    But good shows sell you on the characters whatever their skin color or 2LGBTQ+!€&.* status.

    1. If the show is good, you bought the characters.

    2. If the characters you bought are "diverse" then diversity didn't stop you from buying them.

    Ergo diversity, like hair spray may or may not appeal to you more or less depending on your aesthetic tastes, but it cannot be the thing that causes a film or TV show to sink or swim.

    @Jason R
    Yes it can
    People don't want to be lectured about real world identity politics while watching a show for escapism. It's all over. As soon as you hate Mochael Burnham, or the chicken that wants to be called they that they introduced in season 3, you are a bigot

    Oh, and while Ahsoka as a character was created by Filoni, it was George Lucas who decided she should be Anakin's Apprentice. George Lucas basically guided Filoni through the Clone Wars as his own protegé and birthed most of the ideas people seem to be complaining about. Again. Heck, it was Lucas's idea to take 4 episodes of the show and mash them into a theatrical movie that bombed.

    (Also, Andor was more like an old school Star Trek show with Wars decor than it was a Star Wars show. Just like Trek is now just various levels of trying to be Star Wars and being shitty at it)

    I disagree. I've never seen a show that feels more like Star Wars than Andor.. with its grit.. which is the key ingredient that Filoni forgot about. It might not be real, but it FELT real when you watch it

    Unlike the other shows, everything felt real

    I have 2 words for this itteration of Star Wars.

    Lumbering and emotionless.

    I'm truly disappointed in this effort by Filloni. After Ahsoka's outstanding showing in Mando, I was expecting more, a lot more.

    I thought we'd at least get Andor quality.

    Was there anyone on the planet that didn't know Elsbeth was going to fight Ahsoka and lose when she was "witched"? Ahsoka didn't cut her in half, so I have 10 bucks we see her in season 2.

    Even General Hera can't show any emotion when Ezra appeared. Why was he still wearing that Storm-trooper suit after leaving Thrawn's ship? did he want to get shot at?

    The owl says everything is OK, so I guess it's OK... you know being stranded a galazy away. At least we have the company of the created-to-sell-merch turtle people for company. Sebine and Ahsoka don't seem to care.

    The two most interesting characters in this thing we Baylan and Shin for gods sake. Too bad Ray Stevenson passed away. I hope they recast him instead of the CGI stuff.

    Season 2 is approved I hear.

    A movie in the making?

    It's a shame. These series look outstanding and are scored well... too bad the writers can't write/direct an engaging story.

    I got the feeling throughout this that this was not Ahsoka's story.

    I didn't see Rebels, but I know The Clone Wars was better than this.

    1.5 stars from me.

    "I thought we'd at least get Andor quality. "
    I too thought that we would get the very best Star Wars has to offer. :D

    Yeah lol, I don't think many ppl were expecting 'at least' Andor quality...

    Merely 'not shit' was all I was realistically hoping for. Turns out even that wasn't realistic.

    Yeah, Andor was so good because Disney thought"This is a show about the origin story of the second lead in a spin off movie, so we don't have to care." They probably let people just do stuff because if it flops then nobody cares but if it goes, as starving crypto bros say, "to the moon" then everybody is happy.

    I still get chills from the Skarsgard speech. Not just because it is true.
    Here for anybody who is thinking about googling it. :)

    Star wars in general is a product/franchise/corporate newspeech that has to make a lot of money for a publicly traded company. One fiscal quarter after another.
    That rarely invites creativity.
    As seen with anything but

    Lightning in a bottle.

    Yep, exactly.

    Thanks for the link, it's been a while. Epic stuff.


    That's such a great speech!!

    Then of course we have this:


    "You can launch someone else across a ravine, but not yourself?"

    Ironic. She could save others from falling, but not herself.

    "This season, especially in the first half, suffers from an acute case of Star Wars prequelitis. Characters speak in hushed monotone with flat expressions, and the editing patterns in these episodes are atrocious: Every cut seems to be about three seconds too late"

    The prequels don't suffer from the kind of padded for time editing that Ahsoka does though. Can we retire "Star Wars prequels" as a shorthand for "bad thing in Star Wars"?
    The internet has long left reality far behind when it comes to prequel bashing.

    "Characters speak in hushed monotone with flat expressions, and the editing patterns in these episodes are atrocious: Every cut seems to be about three seconds too late, lingering on the actors' (muted) reactions as if every line of dialogue must be heavily considered for its weighty emotional significance — even in scenes of pure exposition where such weight is absent."

    My friends all liked this show far more than me, and this quotation perfectly summarizes one of my main reservations about it (especially the first few episodes) that for some reason doesn't bother them at all. The editing in simple scenes of 2 or 3 person conversations is often slow and dull to a degree that feels a little amateurish.

    With this series it really helps if you have watched Clone Wars and Rebels. As someone who has, really enjoyed seeing the animated characters brought to life. Yes, it dragged in parts and the ending didn't bring all the strands together but there were some great battles and it was good to see Thrawn brought to screen. He had a plan and didn't deviate from it. One of the best star wars villains.
    I don't know how it will be finished, but a second series would work I think.
    Finally it is very sad about Ray Stevenson who was epic in this.

    Great review Jammer! You've summed up exactly how I took in this "series".

    "but on the whole it's a frustrating and hollow experience of over-produced mediocrity."

    Truer words have never been spoken.

    So disappointing.

    "The prequels don't suffer from the kind of padded for time editing that Ahsoka does though. Can we retire "Star Wars prequels" as a shorthand for "bad thing in Star Wars"? The internet has long left reality far behind when it comes to prequel bashing."

    The prequel qualities I'm specifically referring to is this muted style of performance and spoken dialogue, where everyone (here especially Ahsoka) speaks with too much dispassionate formality and is dialed back into Calm Jedi Mode and spouts way too much exposition. The sluggish editing is merely an aggravating factor, although a particularly notable one.

    I'm something of a prequel defender (aside from The Phantom Menace), but this quality is specific to the prequels and the worst thing about them. Say what you will about the J.J. sequels, but they did not suffer from this particular quality. The performances there were much more alive and dynamic.

    Fair enough, you are more fair to the PT than many, that's true. In response to your other points though, personally I would argue that
    1. Lucas more successfully pulls off a valid style (dispassionate, calm jedi etc) that Filoni is having trouble constistently replicating.
    2. As far as JJ goes, I find his style of "alive and dynamic" to be pretty artifical (moreso in his Wars movies than Trek). For example, when Finn and Poe first meet and get all hyped to escape the destroyer and have the conversation on the TIE fighter, the sense of exitement feels a little too obviously calculated/manufactured IMO.

    > Say what you will about the J.J. sequels, but they did not suffer from this particular quality.

    Oof... no thanks. As boring as it is, I'd rather take the stiff, unnecessary gravitas of the Prequels than, say, endure another "wacky comedy sketch" like the one between Poe and Hux at the start of Episode 8. ("I believe he's 'tooling' with you, sir.")

    That's the same problem as Strange New Worlds and friends: they dropped the "Starfleet formal" (or whatever you call it) in favor of what will later become very dated, modern speech patterns.

    (Of course, the MCU is even worse: can't let a fucking _vowel_ go by without a punchline or reference, but that gets into a whole other criticism...)

    The original trilogy got the balance right, I think.

    As a fan of Clone Wars and especially Rebels, "Ahsoka" was, to me, making good on a major plot IOU from the end of Rebels. From that angle, I feel it very much succeeded in fulfilling that promise... even though it just left another IOU behind.

    The problem was trying to satisfy those Rebels/CW fans while also keeping it accessible to the uninitiated. It's perfectly fine to have a series "just for us", but "Ahsoka" wanted it both ways.

    I've seen plenty of folks say they were able to "fill in the blanks" and get the gist, even though a lot of the significance flew over their heads. Some even interested enough to go back and watch the shows. (Highly recommended -- they're pretty great.)

    But even from the 'Rebels'-pleasing angle, this was frustrating: Thrawn was terrific, but the reunion between these long-lost friends (both between Ezra and Sabine, and Ezra and Hera) was bizarrely underwhelming and unsatisfying. These characters are from a close-knit family. They've been through a lot, yet it comes off on-screen as simply ticking boxes. Cut the filler nonsense with Ahsoka having a lightsaber battle in space versus enemy fighters (why the fuck don't they just shoot the ship?) and give that space over to giving the characters the reunion they deserve.

    Meanwhile, genuinely interesting new characters like Baylan and Shin seem to exist only to fulfill the obligatory choreographed lightsaber fighting. (Even Thrawn doesn't seem to understand why they're here and is happy to cut them loose.) And just as it feels like their story is starting to coalesce and Go Somewhere -- oops, no, sorry, that's "a good story for another time".

    Narrative blue balls is no way to run a series, son. :P

    Still, at the end of the day, I'd sooner rewatch THIS than endure "Book of fucking Boba Fett", "Obi Wan", or most of Mando past S1 at this point.

    "Oof... no thanks. As boring as it is, I'd rather take the stiff, unnecessary gravitas of the Prequels than, say, endure another "wacky comedy sketch" like the one between Poe and Hux at the start of Episode 8. ("I believe he's 'tooling' with you, sir.")"

    I feel the same about the recent shows, including Ahsoka. Are they fantastic? Nope. But they're serviceable in a Season 6 TNG kind of way. 2 - 3 stars through and through.

    The prequels were gold mixed with trash in about equal measure.

    The sequels were just trash, gold plated. And by the second movie most of the gold was scraped off.

    To this day I still can't fathom the high ratings Jammer gave to those loathsome films.

    Even the 2.5 stars given to Rise of Skywalker is offensively high.

    "The problem with a shared mega-universe is that shows (or movies, or "content") simply become trailers for the next thing, and storytelling becomes secondary."


    And in addition to my rants above...

    Thrawn was average. Just because he speaks quietly and gets to rebuke the imbeciles around him, doesn't make him particularly clever, let alone a great character. As others detailed, there is no motive to the guy other than some vague sense of order.

    And Rebels wasn't that great. It had its bright moments, it felt like star wars, but let's not overstate it's quality.

    Anyway, glad to hear you thought Andor was excellent, Jammer :)

    @Roger Ailes

    Agreed. George’s dialogue and action feels like it’s from a galaxy far away and contextual to the character, the time period (within the galaxy), the locale and specific scene as well as part of the actual overall story. Be that a wise old Jedi Master talking to a young Luke, or Jedi Master talking about the Chancellor. The dialogue, music and story work in harmony.

    The Disney sequels - apart from not being what the saga creator intended at all (and thus frankly irrelevant) - don’t FEEL like the saga at all nor feel like Star Wars. The dialogue is plain awful. There’s no Star Wars energy to the delivery. Random characters who have no place being the protagonists in a family saga that originally had an overall storyline and premise (which was shamelessly, arrogantly and disrespectfully thrown out) talk slang from a specific part of our current world. Like you said it feels very fake and no way is it timeless like the 6 episode saga. The way Rey talks is cringey as well as arrogant. Finn is gleeful at wiping out his comrades in the hangar bay in the sickening parody film TFA. He might as well have been saying “Yipee ki yay!” Poe comes up with the same silly humour at the start of TLJ in TFA itself in the opening when he’s first captured. And none of these bozos are relevant to the saga either! The delivery of lines of the Filoni style cartoon villains from the First Order is super awful from the ridiculous Hux speech to the slow meaningless utterings of the random bad guy in the hologram. Laughable that that film was accepted as a sequel when it breaks the very premise of the saga. If the numero uno villain character wasn’t there all along up to this point, then these jokers just stated a random dark sider just materialised (and accepted as normal by our heroes) which destroys the saga completely. And for what! For their dumb so called characters. They just don’t get it. Unless there’s a story to tell relevant to the premise of the saga as its creator intended, there is no further episode after “happily ever after”. These jokers though seem hell bent on Episode 47 and beyond. Had their lunacy been marketed as a separate set of films outside the saga and without the ability to leach publicity from the notion of the return of the original cast, then they’d likely have been seen for what they were sooner.

    What is crazy is the supposed “distaste” and bashing of the prequels often based upon flawed incorrect statements that have no bearing in reality, by many in the media (the so called critics), whilst the same media critics who lambast those films showered praise on the Disney sequels as if sunshine emanated from its backside despite these films ACTUALLY having factual flaws. And ironically factually having the very things they incorrectly claimed were in the “bad prequels” (which were actually part of one cohesive 6 episode story and good).

    As for Ahsoka, the dialogue pacing is insane. If you add up the pauses of characters just looking at each other, you’d probably get enough additional runtime for a feature length episode.

    George’s dialogue made sense. Expanded Universe novels or old Lucasarts video game dialogue also “feels” right with energy, purpose and context to them. Same with Andor.


    The Disney sequels were more like trash marketed as an oasis and the “gold wrapping” you speak of purely an illusion that is the result of a mirage. As you approach, you release the wrapping isn’t wrapping at all, it was just lense flare.

    @Darth Plageuis

    That was Jason R's quote, not mine.

    Fwiw I think Last Jedi had its moments. It took some risks, it tried to add a new dimension or two. The other 2 sequels were both rehashes, in the worst possible way, and contemporary, in the worst possible way.

    "The problem with a shared that shows (or movies, or "content") simply become trailers for the next thing, and storytelling becomes secondary."

    Thank you for bringing this up, it is one of my main gripes about modern day "storytellng", particualary in the streaming world. This is exactly what old-school soap operas like "General Hospital" or "Days of Our Lives" used to do with their never-ending plotlines--with the exception that they did it MUCH better, as evidenced by their longevity.

    The fact that there is a sizeable segment of the current viewing audience that is not only NOT bothered by this type of writing, but actually celebrates it, leads me to believe we are well on our way to the reality presented in the film "Idiocracy" where we're eagerly awaiting new episodes of "Ow! My Balls!" and the oscar-winning movie is "Ass".

    Do you guys remember that imperial lieutenant in Andor, who is part of the Rebel cell in Aldhani? I can't remember the character's name and his total time on screen was probably about five minutes. Yet I know far more about his motivations, his moral compass and who he IS as an individual than I do for any character in Ahsoka or basically any other Disney Star Wars show. He feels like a real person because he is written like one.

    That is the difference between art and mere content.

    That was Lieutenant Gorn (possibly named after the star trek race)

    I agree completely with your point.

    When his superior says "you'll hang for this" his responce is "seven years of serving you, I deserve far worse"

    Plus they have hin a background story about hiw he loved a native but they had her killed or something.

    Nit even more to the point, he was drawn and acted as if he was a real person


    For sure. Lieutenant Gorn was a well acted character with motivation.

    The TIE fighters responding from the Airbase felt professional and the scene epic.

    And the duty Comms Officer showed more competency than anyone in Disney’s shows (hero or villain)

    The Rebel strike team on Aldhani, the Comms officer team, the Gungan Army, or even the Corpo Security detachments led by Syril would run circles around Disney/Filoni’s New Republic, Imperials, First Order etc.

    Andor felt immersive as if it were real people and making you feel like you were in the galaxy far far away providing everyone’s (various sides) standpoint.

    after watching the last episode of Ahsoka again , I figured out Thrawn's plan!!

    Check it:
    He will create am army of poor plot contrivances to fight Ahsoka's army of space seahorses that wear sunglasses, listen to punk rock, and spit brand new galaxies out their asses

    @MercerCreate There is that brilliant scene when his superior says something along the lines of "the natives are uncivilized fools" and he stays silent, and somehow saying nothing he still conveys "that is what I used to think." Just brilliant.

    Without being as well-written as Andor, the Original Trilogy was also capable of defining supporting characters with very few scenes and lines. Wedge Antilles, Boba Fett, Admiral Piett... you almost instantly understand what makes these people tick, which makes the world seem alive. Nowadays we get hours of a prolonged streaming movie and yet all of the characters seem interchangeable.

    By the way, isn't Thrawn's actual plan pretty clear? He's putting Nightsisters (which were, by the way, not a Lucas and Filoni invention but a creation of the Expanded Universe) in stasis into those pods, isn't he? The plan is to repopulate Dathomir with witches and use it as a base to wage war, I'd say. Which of course doesn't make sense if the witches are originally from the foreign galaxy and Dathomir was the colony: Why would they care about repopulating it at the expense of leaving their own home? It's as if the US became depopulated and the entire British population decided to move there. I'm still quite confident this is what is being set up here. Filoni just loved having the Nightsisters in his cartoons.

    Yes.. creating background characters has become a lost art, but Gilroy had a good handle on how to do it. He obviously put a lot of effort to make Andor as good as he possibly could. Flawless? Probably not, but it's very strong.

    Yeah I can imagine that being the plan. But to me .. it sounds like just more plot, less story

    Honest Trailers...

    Guys, as much as I enjoy imagining the downfall of the Western World, TV shows are not a good indicator. Wheat and chaff. There is lots of god stuff and quite a few great shows.

    "Luthen... what are you?.. I've never really known"
    "I'm a coward. I'm a man who is terrified that Empire's power will grow beyond the point that we can do anything about it."

    Saw and Luthen

    @Mercer Who are Saw and M

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