“Prey”

I Agree with everything in the review.

I also want to comment on Tom Paris - he was great in this episode! The way he has a weapon, but doesn't really know what the hell to do with it, and his expression when Tuvok comes to the rescue.

I was thinking at first... "Why is tom paris going?" And then the writers make Tom act the way he should. I mean, seriously... how many times do you see Tom firing his phaser and stuff? Like never.

Lastly, he has the funniest line in the entire season. The hirogen brags that "I once tracked a silicon-based lifeform through a neutronium mantle of a collapsed star."

And then Tom responds - with the best expression ever - "I once tracked a mouse through Jeffrey Tube 32."

LOL. Best line in the entire episode. The expression on his eyes and just coming out of the blue is so priceless. I laughed so hard.

Although I enjoyed the ep, I didn't grok Janeway's reasoning - other than simply as a way to have a confrontation between her and Seven. Seven was so clearly correct, versus Janeway's bizarre stance, in the context of what the knew about the capabilities of the combatants and the situation.

I feel the writers could have come up with a more reasonable basis for a fifty-fifty judgment call leading to a disagreement between the two where Seven should clearly have deferred to Janeway's command authority.

Great review Jammer. Nice to see such positive comments about Voyager for once. I still think "Nemesis" is superior but this was without a doubt one of the best episodes of the season. It had great character interaction and un unexpectedly dark ending for a Star Trek episode, yet still remained true to the spirit of Star Trek. I agree 100% with Janeway's decision, but Seven did also raise some interesting points. This being may have been responsible for many deaths, but does that make it any less humane to sacrifice it to save ourselvesS? I'm still pondering it.

The only thing that irked me on first viewing was Tuvok's sudden onset of telepathic abilities. Vulcans had never before shown the ability to communicate in this manner without a mind meld. It made Kes' absence all the more noticeable (I still think it would have been better to 'demote' her to a recurring character).

Oh, and what a great shot of 8472 walking along Voyager's hull. It's probably one of my favorite shots of the series.

@nic vulcans are telepathic. Limited but they still are. See "random thoughts" episode and T'Pol's explanation when they dealt with the Andorian's "telepathic cousins".

Very good episode and i agree with both janeway and seven. I agree more with janeway and honestly 100% agree if i was in the delta quadrant. Sometimes i have to remind myself that the ST universe, the culture is the idealistic notions of today become reality. ST people are on more naive, trusting, and good side than us -from that point of view, you can understand where Janeway is coming from.

You sell Seven short in your review. You say she can't be held accountable because she doesn't know what her individuality is yet. Yet, here she is before you loudly asserting her individuality. Similar to Picard once saying, "Our mission is to seek out new life, well There He Sits!" You clearly have your own moral compass that lets you choose your preference but that doesn't give you any cause to be dismissing differing views out of hand.

Seven's tactical assessment is 100% correct and she saved Voyager this episode - Janeway's kurt dismissal of this assertion doesn't make it any less true. I am just so glad that there is a character on Star Trek that finally understands reality. Not everyone thinks the same way. Not everyone has the same value system. Not everyone has the same moral code.

The "fiction" part of Star Trek in almost all cases is that our intrepid crew keeps surviving. They would be dead time and time again if they existed in reality. "Ah, a new species, Captain. Shall we raise shields?" "No, Number One, we don't want them to get the wrong impression." NO, NO, NO. Shields UP! Any species that gets miffed at your raised shields is probably just picking a fight. Err on the side of caution - don't bare your chest to the knife and hope for an equal dose of compassion in return.

I think Tony Todd as the Hirogen character was the best guest star so far in the first 4 VOY seasons. Nice acting and his deep voice matched perfectly with his merciless attitude.

Tony Todd played a role as a badass terrorist in The Rock movie (Sean Connery, Nicolas Cage) delivering some funny lines.

Great episode, 4 stars!

Despite my overall dislike of the Hirogen, this episode is indeed a winner. It was also Tony Todd's last ever appearance on a Star Trek show and, as usual, he knocked it out of the park. He really is a terrific actor and I don't think it's a coincidence that pretty much all of his Trek appearances were in classic episodes. He brought something as an actor every time that transformed good scripts into good shows.

Yep, not much to say other than this is good Voyager. Some great scenes that are well acted with some suspense and action thrown in. 3 1/2 is about right.

Scene of the 8472 walking on the outer hull:

"There's something on the wing..."

I think Seven was right in this episode and I'm glad she defied Janeway. If things had gone Janeway's way, the Voyager and her crew would have been reduced to their component atoms by the Hirogen in about six seconds flat. Compassion is all very well, but doesn't Janeway have a duty to keep her ship and crew safe? Shouldn't that override her duty to help one single (and definitely not 'innocent', by the way!) alien life form? She seemed all too ready to throw the lot of them under the bus.
When Seven states that following Janeway's plan would have resulted in Voyager's certain destruction, the best response Janeway can muster is the profoundly feeble 'Maybe not.' That says it all, I think. Seven saved the ship.

Along with "Equinox," and the second half of "Year of Hell," this episode is probably the strongest example, of Janeway's trademark abuse of authority. We see it to a degree in "Spirit Folk," as well, but not quite as severely as here.

It's these episodes which really demonstrate the fact that, while Picard as a character actually went on to have a book about leadership written from his perspective, by a couple of real-life military generals, ("Make It So,") most of the time, Janeway served as an example of how any sort of leader should *not* behave.

As I've written here before, Janeway's immaturity and immorality as a leader, was by far the most negative and problematic element of Voyager as a series.

This was a fantastic episode. For me a full 4 stars. The conflict between Janeway & Seven had been brewing for a while & even so Seven's flat refusal to obey a direct order was a bold move by the writers.

As Janeway says there's a limit to individuality on a starship where there's a hierarchy. The Captain's word is law.
Granted, Seven did not choose to be on Voyager but she should be able to see how the crew works as a collective in their own way to keep the ship & each other alive. And on that ship Janeway is Queen of the Hive.

I see Janeway as trying give Seven a moral compass where she previously had none. Her decision to protect the 8472 despite the species' previous encounters is quite typical of Star Trek. Take for example Picard's decision to protect Q when he was turned mortal by the Continuum & then hunted down by a species he had tormented & who wanted revenge. Picard risked his ship then to save Q.

8472 effectively requested asylum & Janeway granted it. While 8472 would never sacrifice itself to protect the human crew as Q did on that episode of TNG, that doesn't make Janeway's decision any different from Picard's.

Consider also that 1 member of the race cannot be held responsible for the actions of the species as a whole. That particular 8472 was a soldier in a war. (A war which the Borg started in fact & which Seven conveniently ignores when talking about the millions of Borg that were destroyed.)
Now the war is over & it just wants to get back home.

Janeway has made it clear that even though her top priority is to get her crew home, she will still uphold the principles of the Federation. And to me it wouldn't be Star Trek without this.

To me, this show is an ecxellent example of Star Trek when it works best - i.e. putting the spotlight on a very interesting dilemma without "handing" us a solution. I love that stuff!

On one hand, 7 of 9 is - obviously - in the right: refusing to hand over the "prey" to the Hirogen puts Voyager at high risk ... as it turns ou at SUCH high risk that she would probably have been detsroyed had 7 of 9 not disobeyed the Captain's orders.

On the other hand Janeway is taking a stand for the morally right thing to do.

Now, some of the comments above point out that Janeway is moraaly in the wrong here, because she needlessly endangeres the ship and the crew.
I, however, would argue that Janeway is doing exactly what she and her fellow Starfleet officers have been trained to do: to protect the weak and defenseless from the violent "bully", no matter the personal cost.
As RenC pointed out in the post above this one, Picard has done it before with Q ... in fact we've seen him do it time and again in TNG.

The Starfleet officers are eesentially saying "we do not bow for bullies - you may be able to destroy us, but we will keep doing the RIGHT thing ... you will NOT dictate our actions!"

You might argue that this is stupid, because it'll end up getting you killed. On the other hand you might argue that this is the only right way to act if you want to gain any respect from other species around the galaxy in the long run.

Is it realistic? Well, I don't think I would personally have the courage to stand up for what I think is right in the face of nearly cetain destruction - but then again, I'm not a Starfleet officer, and I didn't sign up to serve on a tarship encountering dozens of species in vast, cold space.

7 of 9's position on all of this is pragmatic. Janeway's position is idealistic. Neither of those views are necessarily wrong - but from previous experience (i.e. many episodes in the past)we know exactly which position Star Trek takes!

The really great thing abput this particular episode - to me, anyway - is that it DOESN'T say that Jabeway is right and 7 of 9 is wrong! This wouls normally be the Lesson of the Day (tm) from an episode like this, but not here - this episode lets the question linger in the air.

In my own personal oppinion Janeway was in the right - but I understand how others think that 7 of 9 was in the right.
What I DON'T understand is how some people can write off Janeway's view as stupid or even immoral, when she is taking the Classic Star Trek Captain Stance (tm) here.

There's compassion, but then there's just stupidity. I really DO like the Captain Janeway character, but I so didn't agree with her in this episode. If she'd had her way and they had tried to send the alien back there's NO DOUBT Voyager would have been destroyed and probably even before they could have sent it back. She was making a choice, she was trading the life of everyone on the ship for the life of that alien. Compassion would have been to RISK the ship and crew for the alien, not TRADE it. I can't stand it when people I admire in a show do ignorant things like that, hopefully she'll redeem herself for me in the next few episodes, if not I don't think I can continue watching a ship with a captain who just doesn't give a damn about the crew and would trade it for any stupid alien that came along.

If ever there was a time to mutiny it might be after the events in this episode. Janeway has put her crew in extreme peril numerous times now for flimsy reasons varying from "I want to get a closer reading" to "Hopefully the six warships that have us dead in the water won't kill us". In a recent episode she was going to let B'Elanna be lobotomized for no reason.

Frankly it's difficult to keep watching this show when the captain of the crew is religiously naive and careless with her crew's lives.

This was a good episode but for the fact that Seven alone stood up and protested Janeway's willingness to sacrifice all of their lives for an aggressive creature that had put them in danger and assaulted her crew even though it was clearly capable of communicating with them and *asking* for help. For me that is a major oversight by the writers. As usual.

I may not continue with this show after this episode, as I'm simply not enjoying the contrived way these plots come about. The writing quality is inferior to that which you can find in good fan fiction and I suspect that the writers attained their positions through some combination of political/social favor or because of lazy producers giving jobs to marginal talent within rather than seeking talented outsiders. Just way too many plot holes and way too many scenes that only work if the characters act illogically.

Quote - Chris P. Frankly it's difficult to keep watching this show when the captain of the crew is religiously naive and careless with her crew's lives. End Quote

Exactly. I've continued watching, but it was only after a friend of mine said "Didnt you see the episode where they went through an anamoly and it made nearly everyone on the ship brain damaged and backward? You know the one where the Captain loses everything BUT her Liberalness and now just a few non damaged characters have to do their best to keep the ship running from the posts they have?" I said "No, I missed that one." He said "yeah I did too, but it explains pretty much everything doesn't it?" lol. So now, when I watch it, it's more like 'Die Hard' (or 'Die Borg' lol), Seven of Nine is Bruce Willis, and Captain Janeway and most of the rest (not the doctor) are the evil foreigners.

Seriously though, 7 just saved their butts and Janeway is like "Can we pursue?" Can we pursue??? I mean really! Come on. How utterly idiotic. What did she think they were going to do if they DID manage to catch up? "Excuse me, give us your prey back, or I'll blow up my own ship!" What an idiot.

It's not a bad show, it just makes some really ignorant non-points sometimes - pepsiadikt

I can't help but keep saying: it is impossible to keep swallowing how easy it is for someone to escape security measures. To overcome security officers at the sickbay, to by-pass command codes. To beam people without authorization. The lazy writing is extreme. Btw it is funny that Jammer did usually excuse these things more than he did the losses of shuttlecrafts.

That said, of course it was a good episode. Mostly by the fact that we start seeing continuity regarding the development of Seven's character. And finally we see some consequences for her wild actions. The last scenes and the dialogues between her and the captain were a joy to watch.

Good episode, some meaty questions to ponder.

But I do have some issue with the resolution of the plot. Having Seven countermand Janeway's orders robs us of seeing how Janeway ultimately deals with the impossible decision she faces. I think it would have been good to see Janeway either relent on her moral stance for the good of her crew or deal with the consequences of doing the 'right thing'.

Also, the episode makes Janeway out to be totally adamant, seeing the situation as completely black and white, thinking that her decision is the only right way. Now I'm NOT saying her decision is wrong by any means but I think she should have shown some sign of the pain that decision would cause a Captain. Just because she believed her decision was the moral one doesn't mean she wouldn't have wept blood at the knowledge that the likely result was the capture or destruction of her ship and crew.

It reaffirms unfair stereotypes that having ideals and taking a moral standpoint is naïve and ultimately dumb by portraying Janeway as indifferent to the likely consequences of her actions.

This episode as a whole is a definite step up from the previous one, but not without some balancing issues. Notably the Janeway/Seven scenario. Janeway was very much correct in that the humane thing to do was to try and get the injured Undine back home. Seven was also very much correct that the lives of the crew were of paramount importance if the Hirogen were to attack.

Fortunately, the writers chose the lesser-expected route of having Seven countermand the captain in having the aliens involved beamed away mid-battle rather than opening the rift. Unfortunately, though, instead of making it a grey-area decision; the plot followed along in a black and white matter. Where Seven was 100% correct and made Janeway look 100% foolish to the viewer (even though, technically, she was just as right). Now I understand it was just a series of events, and that, decisions such as those can lead to any possibility based on any given situation in life. I just don't know if the end result was purposely intended this way by the writers or if they didn't fully think it through. At the end of the day, it really does make it look like Seven was absolutely right and Janeway was, not only absolutely wrong, but stubbornly naive. Even though she wasn't. *sigh*

This makes it all the more frustrating for me, because, in retrospect, it almost seems as a major demerit from an otherwise great episode. It does seem like the writers fucked up again. Or maybe they didn't. Maybe they really DID want Seven to win the argument and save the day. And maybe the captain WAS correct, just the circumstances didn't allow her to be.

3.5 stars.

I was really surprised in this episode by how easy going Janeway was on Seven. When Tuvok disobeyed orders in an earlier episode to protect the crew she gave him a verbal beat down. Taking away her access to the ship should already be a given in this situation. Seven didn't even get sent to the brig.

Everyone is saying that 7 was right. Well she wasn't, you don't just throw someone who is not an enemy to the wolves. Especially when they could have been a very powerful ally.

There are always infinite other possibilities for endings, this one sucked, 1 possible ending would be for the 'prey' to go through the singularity and then come back with a bunch of ships and annihilate the Hirogen hunters.

And why didn't the doctor stop her.
And why didn't Janeway throw 7 in the brig.
And again, why didn't Janeway throw 7 in the brig.

Janeway is a stupid arrogant hypocrite.

Janeway saw the Hirogen as a potential ally but not the 'prey', why?

It's not about making a powerful ally. It's about not provoking an enemy. Janeway was trying to give species 8472 an olive branch.

Justice is not blind either.

I'm with Seven on this one, for the simple fact that she is correct that Species 8472 gave up any rights it may have had when it forcefully invaded their ship, tampered with their systems and attacked 4 members of their crew.
I understand that is a creature that had been hunted mercilessly, but if one can not act with compassion one should not expect to receive any in return either. It acted in its own best interest and in doing so it put Voyager and its crew at risk.

Seven was in the right here. There's no doubt about it, in my mind.

Was I the only one disappointed that Tuvok did not echo Seven's stance on the issue. Janeway's decision was illogical to say the least. The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few. Tuvok should have been right by Seven in his view. Of course in the end, I would expect him to follow orders.

The only reason the 8472 was in the galaxy was to purge it of all life.

Engines crippled, shields on the brink of failing, outgunned 6-to-1, Janeway had no plan and no chance other than waiting for another Deus Ex from the screenwriters.

I like the essential concept of what they were going for here but it was badly mishandled in the execution. Seven saved the ship. The end.

John C ....

"The only reason the 8472 was in the galaxy was to purge it of all life."

Don't agree with this.

Species 8472 is in the galaxy because the Borg attacked them in theirs.

One of the drawbacks of having myriad opportunities to rewatch episodes of a show multiple times (via DVDs, Netflix, iTunes, etc.) is that on repeated viewings you start to notice things you're probably not supposed to notice. Like when Chakotay is on camera listening to Tuvok's report about the possible intruder and how evidence suggests (paraphrasing) "it might be Species 8472." Chakotay is figuratively on the edge of his seat until Tuvok pronounces the final digit, then bolts from his chair to do something about the situation. What did he think, that it might have been ". . . Species 8473"? Chakotay: "Whew! Dodged a bullet there!"

LOL @ 8473!

I feel rather chagrined; I didn't even realize that was Tony Todd. I did notice that he was a whole lot better than the two Hirogen from the previous episode, and he was certainly intimidating enough. The Hirogen were rather derivative in the last episode, but I think they're starting to become a bit more rounded. Yeah, one note culture and all that. But they're starting to sell it some more.

Meanwhile, I find it interesting to note how many commentators would throw an innocent man to the wolves in order to save themselves. Is it logical? Perhaps, in a utilitarian sense. But it certainly isn't honorable, nor is it consistent with the ideals that have been consistently shown throughout the many series. Picard wouldn't even let the Calamarain go after Q, after all. If the Hirogen boarded, held Janeway and crew at gunpoint, and grabbed 8472, that would be one thing. But to just fork him over just like that? Kirk would be ashamed...

Although it would have been nice if there was at least some possibility of Voyager fighting back. Having it be so one-sided was a bit of a copout. By now we are well aware of the artificial danger portion in the final act of any Voyager episode. If the crew had a chance to escape, or fight back, then there would be a bit more tension of wondering how this battle would end. Instead, we're simply left wondering what the shields get down to before the deus ex machina occurs.

But whatever, its a minor complaint. Regardless of whether or not it was honorable, Seven's decision was perfectly rational in her view, and I don't blame her for making it. And it brought some well-needed tension to the ship. While the Maquis never should have started a mutiny or anything silly like that, questioning Starfleet philosophy would have been a legitimate use of them. Sadly, other than Seska and the occasional whimpering from Chakotay, they never used that angle much. Seven's existence allows us to bring some of that conflict back into the show. Janeway didn't do a great job of defending herself here, but she is certainly within her rights to punish Seven for her actions. And it is certainly a delight to see some consequences for Seven's actions, even if they start to disappear quickly...

Meanwhile, the tension throughout much of the episode is real, and made for an enjoyable episode overall. In fact, it's been quite a run of good episodes of late.

Plothole #1: Kes threw Voyager 10,000 light years away from Borg space and closer to home. How did 8472 get this far if it was a relic of the Borg war?

Plothole #2: How is it possible for Paris to track a mouse through Jeffries tube 32? How would a mouse find itself on Voyager in the delta quadrant?

Plothole #3: How did Seven beam 8472 to the Hirogen ship in the middle of a battle with either Voyager or the Hirogen ship's shields up?

Petrus - This is the reason episodes like S1's Prime Factors make Janeway look like such a hypocrite. She came on quite strong in that one yet episodes like this one demonstrate that as a Captain its ok to break those same rules whenever they become inconvenient. And in this case it nearly got the crew killed. Once again putting another race over the safety of her own crew. Won't even get started about Equinox or Endgame.

Loved Seven's speech at the end towards Janeway after her sentence was doled out. She didn't have a choice in the collective any more than she had a choice with Voyager. But she clearly had her own mind and it was...inspiring to see her express it. All Janeway could retort with was "As you were".

Frankly they should have mutinied back in the pilot just before she destroyed the array. That's really where the bad decisions began for this crew.

This was an awesome ep regarding Species 8472. It didn't showcase them as total monsters despite their fearsome appearance. In fact, knowing they were the ones being attacked by first the Borg and now the Hirogen we can't really fault its actions. I think of poor Ripley from Aliens whenever I think of species 8472. First impressions will dictate your actions towards a race. But all this 8472 alien wanted to do was return to fluidic space.

But I still wasn't crazy about their story in S5's In the Flesh. The storyline would have been awesome if it were another species. It didn't really fit with 8472 tho.

I never really found the Hirogen to be all that interesting. No moreso than the Ka-zon. Tony Todd, however, did essay the role quite well. Still, I didn't find them to be as nearly as fascinating as their prey.

The pacing and the storyline itself were first rate in spite of Janeway's pious posturing and decisions that nearly turned the crew into flotsam. Oh yeah, and puttng the Hirogen hot on their trail. 3.5 stars is doable.

Excellent intro featuring the marvelous Tony Todd, who actually serves to give the Hirogen just a little more nuance than previously. Species 8472 is always a crowd pleaser of course, and the action is just different enough (eg the suits) to make it all interesting.

But it's the conflict between Seven and Janeway that is the real highlight. It's great to see two strong characters butting heads, and the fact that Janeway doesn't win the argument through the mere force of her moral convictions but is met with a flat rejection of the idealistic approach with a flatly pragmatic one makes for a wonderful concluding scene.

Yet another good episode (The 10th 2.5 or above rated episode in a row, equaling the record for any series in my re-watch so far). 3.5 stars.

Totally agree with Petrus. Janeway is a disaster on legs. "Erratic, conflicted, disorganised." Ring a bell? Seven of Nine is the single best thing on Voyager, possibly in the whole of ST, no small thanx to Jeri Ryan's screen presence and natural talent for under-delivering rather than over-deliveting her lines. She is consistently pitch perfect and has an extraordinary range.

I really liked this episode for the conflict between Seven and Janeway. And I think I never hated Janeway most. I rewatch Voyager for the third time or so now, and I never particularily liked Janeway, but now that I am older I really start to hate her. She is just a bully, abusing her position to impose her judgement on everyone. Seven says it best at the end. Janeway wants to form her into a carbon copy of herself, and she gets punished if she does not obey. Now, I understand that on any ship you need a clear chain of command, and in the end, the captain gives the orders. But that does not mean that the crew has to follow their captain blindly. Janeway acted in the most illogical and dangerous way, stubborn to the point of blindness. This episode could have been a great moral dilemma if the odds weren't so in favour of the hirogen. She is a bad captain because she puts her morals above anything, regardless of the circumstances. And it is not that she struggled with the decision to kill her crew (which was essentially what she was doing), she acted like a religious zealot, principle above all else. I know that it is a Star Trek motto to help those in need, but there is a point where that is just not possible without killing yourself. And in the end they still got lucky that the hirogen just turned away after they got their prey. They could just as easily have destroyed the Voyager, especially after she offended them the way she did (by stealing their prey). It is also Star Fleet custom to respect other cultures, is it not?

In this episode, and also the next, I felt really sorry for Seven. She is basically a usefull pet that gets called upon if there is a difficult problem, but if she acts human, and rational for that matter, she gets confined to the cargo bay, and is only allowed to still work the astrolab because that suits Janeways needs. She traded one oppressive regime for the next. And in real life, the crew would have mutinied, if not earlier than after this episode. Risking all their lives to save a creature that would most likely kill them if they bring it home. There is only so much a captain can demand. Look at Captain Bligh. Technically, he was right in his descisions, because it were his to make. In the same way Janeway is right here: It is her descision to kill her crew. But she can't blame the crew for disobeying such orders. I would have loved to see her replaced, even by Chakotay, who may be boring, but at least he is not clinically insane.

If Janeway listened to her peers, changed her opinion from time to time, or even admitted to making mistakes now and then, she would not be such an unlikeble character. But with her adamant irrationality and adherence to principle when it is not appropriate, she is the single most dangerous thing that the Voyager ever encountered, and is the only reason I am reluctant to watch this series again.

And to Name is irrelevant: Well, yes, you don't do that. Under normals circumstances, and when you have a fighting chance, if the odds are not impossible. When you are already disabled and outnumbered 6:1, and the only options are to either: 1) Try to save one innocent being (the odds of succeding are exceedingly rare, remember, Torres said she needed 1 or 2 hours, and Tom said he could shake the hirogens for mere minutes), 2) Save 148 innocent lives by handing over one not really innocent being , it is not such an obvious descision anymore. If Janeway acted tortured, while ordering to beam Species 8472 and the hirogen over, and lamented how that descision was the wrong one, but the only possible option in the circumstances, then yes, I could see her as right. If she just ignores the odds and acts as if she is immortal, she is just insane.

Janeway is incapable of viewing reality outside of her own emotional lens. While it is interesting to have such a flawed character - the writers never question her morality - it is presented as if it is somehow the 'only right way' - this is what makes it annoying. The conflict between her and Seven is an opportunity for Janeway to grow - but it is presented from a totally biased perspective - as if it were only Seven who is in need of the 'enlightened' views of Janeway - where its clear that the reverse is in fact the truth.

Janeway constantly projects human emotion and empathy onto alien races that obviously have no empathy. Her idea to 'save the alien at all costs' in this episode makes me wish Seven had quietly strangled her and the irrational magical medicine bag clutching Chakotay - their deaths would put the far more rational Tuvac in charge of the ship. He might be boring - but he is empathic and at least slightly rational.

Like the Borg, the new alien race (8472) appears to be devoid of empathy - they are a psychopathic civilization - and we should expect that this is common in the universe. The complex chemical systems that provide humans with compassion and empathy - also provide humans beings with a competitive and cooperative advantage - but are not necessary to allow civilization. An extremely brutal system of laws, combined with an hierarchical system of rule will allow a psychopathic species to achieve a highly advanced civilization. Most of the population would have to be a disarmed and subjected to virtual slavery - but those subjected to such conditions are also psychopaths - and they would never be able to organize a rebellion - more than that - they would never want to. Instead they would each simply seek to rise to a higher level in the hierarchy themselves.

The so called 'moral dilemma' is personal to Janeway - it is not a an ethical (logical) dilemma. The alien is powerful, hostile and extremely dangerous - it broke through the ships hull - they have proven weapons to use against it which can be used immediately - every second of delay increases the probability that a crew member will be killed, or that a vital system might be destroyed leading to multiple crew fatalities.

Janeway's first obligation is to her ship and crew, therefore the logical and ethical response is to deploy the only known weapon they have against the 8472 alien immediately - instead she asks Seven to start tinkering up a non lethal weapon. This is utterly reckless and vastly increases the danger to the ship and crew. This decision alone makes it clear she places her personal beliefs above the safety of the crew and the ship - if she was the only one at risk - then its fine to act that way, but she is clearly incapable of seeing things from a broader context.

The 8472 alien is powerful and telepathic, its an unknown quantity that might be able to crush Tuvac's mind like a bug at close quarters - or potentially it could disable, kill or even control crew members at range with its virtually unknown telepathic capability. Having it running around the the ship at a time they are facing multiple hostile ships is simply stupid.

The details of the the battle between the alien and hunters is initially unknown, but once more hunters are detected incoming, and the hunter they gave medical treatment makes it demands - then they should have done exactly what Seven did - return them both to the hunter ship. That's how they found them, and that fight is nothing to do with them - they owe neither of the combatants anything. They should have simply followed the Prime Directive and got out of there.

Janeway then tries to justify her actions by saying the alien might be useful as prisoner for intel. Kess had previously explained that the 8472 aliens intended to 'purge' the entire galaxy. The 8472 had also explained that they had no respect for any living creature that could not repel their attack. Not only did they have the capability of destroying entire planets - they had already destroyed several hundred worlds controlled by the Borg. Voyager had created an effective weapon - this was by pure chance - Seven was on board and had both the required technology, and the knowledge required. Supplying this weapon to the Federation should be the highest priority for the entire ship - it should be 'the' mission. While more intel and a living alien is certainly valuable - it is not worth risking the destruction of the ship. If the Federation was attacked - then it could conceivably be completely destroyed before developing that weapon independently.

When the hunters arrive and make their demands, it is like being surrounded by six armed men who say 'give us your prisoner or we shoot you in the head'. If you say no, you get shot in the head - but its not just Janeway's head on the line - an idea she seems to be unable to comprehend.

Her story about the wounded Cardasian is irrelevant - the Cardasians are empathic - to the contrary, there has been no indication that the 8472 aliens are. This is like watching a house burning down, and when its almost gone out - you see a small flame left. Do you run in and 'save' it? Carefully keep the flame 'alive' and then 'release' it into the nearby forest? Projecting the attribute of empathy onto psychopaths is identical to treating forces of nature as if they were living things - its absurd - just one more thing that both the writers and the Janeway character seem incapable of comprehending.

If they had opened a singularity to release the 8472 alien, what then - simply toss it through? It would probably be like beaming someone into deep space - a useless act. Were they going to carry it through aboard their ship, once more invading the plane of the 8472? Were they going to supply it with shuttle from their apparently infinite supply of disposable shuttles? That would provide it with intel. If they had created such a singularity - there seems to be a good chance that the 8472 on the other side would come straight back through at that point - guns blazing. Trying to send the alien 'home' would have potentially placed there entire galaxy at risk again - for the sake of preserving Janeway's conscience - let the galaxy burn, so long as Janeway feels good about herself.

There seems to have no acknowledgement by the writers that any of the rest of the crew might agree with Seven - as if she was wrong and Janeway always right.

This biased lens of 'morality' is not the hallmark of good writing - people should not be told what it right and wrong - far better to simply present it and let them decide for themselves.

Seven's observation that the hierarchical structure on the Voyager is the same kind of collectivism practiced by the Borg is accurate - however there is a veneer of individualism on the Voyager - ultimately Janeway has made it clear - she is the Tyrant of Space - and the lives and wishes of the crew have no value compared to her personal beliefs and feelings, and she will sacrifice their lives on the pyre of her vanity without hesitation - and the writers seem to endorse this as if it were ethical.

"As you were" in military parlance means to rescind an order. Nonmilitary it means to undo what what was just done or forget what you just saw (a real life reset button).

Hence, when Captain Janeway says this to Seven of Nine she takes back everything that she just said about Seven's "punishment". She is saying to go back to the way things were before I stepped into the cargo bay!

Brian,

"As you were" is a military command to withdraw an order, return to the previous position, etc. or to withdraw something just said,

"JANEWAY: Individuality has its limits, especially on a starship where there's a command structure.
SEVEN: I believe that you are punishing me because I do not think the way you do. Because I am not becoming more like you. You claim to respect my individuality, but in fact you are frightened by it.
JANEWAY: As you were."

What it means here is Seven has stepped to far in this conversation. She has gone somewhere she shouldn't and Janeway is not going to continue this debate. She has not taken back anything she said and has not rescinded anything.

Wow.... lot's of interesting comments on this one :-)

It seems just about everyone is hating Janeway and loving Seven.

The Captain is wrong and Seven is right.

Mom is wrong and the teenager is right.

Let's look at 7's first reaction to the situation presented in this story.

"SEVEN: The Hirogen vessel is a potential threat. We should destroy it."

Now, a vessel approached Voyager, fired nothing, has week/intermittent life signs onboard and Seven's reaction is to just frakin blow it up? .... and everyone is on Seven's side here? sure.... she's beaming with reason here.

Captain Janeway deals with this situation appropriately. ... about as "Star Fleet" as it gets. She rescues an injured Hirogen, provides medical aid. Nothing wrong there.

She figures out who this big fella is hunting... then species 8472 gets into the ship, is seen in engineering (where it doesn't kill anyone BTW).

Then she receives a demand from the Hirogen. "Let me continue the hunt or I'll kill you" .... yeah, like she's supposed to allow that.

After trying to find it, they do and the Hirogen tries to kill it, then gets stunned by Tuvok.

The Tuvok melds/read it's mind with this thing.

"TUVOK: It's ship was damaged during the conflict with the Borg. When the other members of its species retreated into fluidic space, it was left behind. It has been trapped in the Delta Quadrant ever since. Alone, pursued by Hirogen hunting parties. It has no desire for further conflict. It only wants to return to its domain. It is dying, Captain."

So our Captain is proven right once again. This actually makes TOTAL sense. 8472 wasn't their enemy, the "provoke a fight" borg were. They were just thrust into that situation. This is a perfect opportunity to hand species 8472 an olive branch. Oh that's right, the Hirogen say they will kill everyone. ... so screw this sentient helpless injured dying creature. .... yeah, that's the Star Fleet thing to do. Let's just side with Seven and kill the damn thing...

Then we have this wonderful exchange between Janeway and Seven.

She tells a war story, blah blah...

Then.

"SEVEN: No. Your decision is tactically unsound. We will be surrounded by Hirogen ships in approximately two hours. If we do not surrender the creature, they will destroy us. A lesson in compassion will do me little good if I am dead.
JANEWAY: It is wrong to sacrifice another being to save our own lives.
SEVEN: I have observed that you have been willing to sacrifice your own life to save the lives of your crew.
JANEWAY: Yes, but that's different. That was my choice. This creature does not have a choice.
SEVEN: It invaded our ship, put our lives at risk to save its own. In my view, it has already forfeited its freedom.
JANEWAY: I'm giving you an order. Report to Deflector Control and begin working on creating a singularity.
SEVEN: I will not comply. I have agreed to remain on Voyager. I have agreed to function as a member of your crew. But I will not be a willing participant in my own destruction or the destruction of this ship.
JANEWAY: Objection noted. We'll do this without you.
SEVEN: You will fail.
JANEWAY: And you have just crossed the line. End of debate. Report to the Cargo Bay and remain there until this is over. Is that understood?"

Janeway gives her every chance to see why she is making this decision. To read some of the comments above, you'd think all Janeway did was barking out and order and massaging metal balls in her hand while demanding strawberries.

Seven is the stubborn self-centered teenager here. Janeway sent her to her room.

As the plot thickens, they need more nano-probes... Seven complies without any hesitation.

Now, as the circumstances unfolded where the force field weakenes and 8472 and the Hirogen resumed their fight, I think Seven's actions should be supported here. This is where I have trouble with the ending and how it unfolded. Janeway's conversation at the end condemned Seven's actions where I think some discussion of how things happened should have taken place. Seven didn't go up there with the intent of beaming them off the ship.

The only thing Seven should have done was informed Janeway of the changed circumstances as she was preparing to take action (beaming them off the ship).

Seven should still be "grounded", but for refusing to help earlier, not her actions under duress at the end.

Overall this is a great episode. I'll go 4 stars even with the miss-step at the end.

...and for all you Janeway haters.... she just takes the moral high road.... folks.

Remember this?

SISKO: "Worf. We don't put civilians at risk or even potentially at risk to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose the battle and sometimes our lives. But if you can't make that choice, then you can't wear that uniform."

This isn't the Boy Scouts or a High School field trip. It's frakin Star Fleet!

I just know Picard stated something similar, but I don't feel like looking it up right now.

I agree with Amagnonx.

@Yanks

Just because one's the "mother" and the other is the "teenager" doesn't mean the mother is right.

7 of 9 was taken aboard the ship against her will, humanized against her will, and forced to be a member of the crew against her will because Janeway decided that 7 of 9 didn't have the right to make her own choices so long as they were choices that she did not agree with. Picard would never have done that - in the end he would have recognized that she was ultimately a child of the borg now, and let her go back.

So here we are in a situation with a person on the ship who has been shanghaied and forced onto this ship against her will, and thus far she has mostly followed the captains orders... but she is not star fleet and she is not obligated to follow the captains orders whatever Janeway may think because she is still a prisoner there against her will.

As far as the Sisko and Worf example, I also thought that was incredibly stupid; especially given the fact that Sisko poisoned an entire world to get Eddington to turn himself in.

OrangeCube,

Is mom always right? Of course not, but that's completely irrelevant here.

Seven was wrong and irrational here. Clearly proven above in my post.

... and has already thanked Janeway for saving her from the collective.

What was incredibly stupid? Sisko's actions to capture Eddington are a completely different ball of wax here... not sure how you can make the comparison. Sisko didn't kill anyone... he "smoked the out".

Well, Janeway has got a point. Even today with the constitutional right of human dignity (at least in my country) forbids to sacrifice another human in order to save other humans.
I dont know if it applies to aliens though since the constitution only affects a certain country. but then again when youre space travelling they probably widened their fundamental principles.

Janeway's logic in this episode is the very reason the Federation almost lost the Dominion War back home, it's the Federations peace loving "Do not harm anyone" attitude that allows species like the Borg, Hirogen, Jem'Hadar, Species 8472 etc to walk all over them, because they portray weakness and a vunerability, their morality.

The age old quote "War is Hell" is something Starfleet doesn't seem to understand, it's a dog eat dog unvierse out there, either you do what you need to survive or you won't be surviving, Seven of Nine saved the crew and the ship. The quote from Spock "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the ONE" is very important here, one viscous, slaughtering alien who got trapped away from his home because he was an invading xenophobic, is not worth an entire ship full of people who have been trapped away from home for years because of an accident.

Boring. Look out there's an alien on the ship. Janeway continues to pat herself on her inept back (*)

The best Trek offers dilemmas for which there are no easy solutions. This episode is a prime example. I would side with Seven on this one, not for lack of compassion but because the alternative was a hopeless situation. But I can also relate to the opposite position. That's what makes it great.

3.5 stars sounds about right.

To nit-pick:
The scene in engineering was unnecessary. Species 8472 attacks a room full of people and nobody is killed? It could be argued that it didn't have any animosity towards the voyager crew, but then why attack them at all? That scene just didn't sit well with me.

"I will not comply."

If I had to choose a most memorable line or moment from Voyager, that would be it. Janeway has a point when she says that the ability to show compassion, even in wartime, is part of being human. I agree with her on principle, and this would be the ideal opportunity to teach Seven of Nine that lesson...

...IF a bunch of Hirogen ships weren't coming to destroy them unless they got their prey back. But the Hirogen are coming, and we have no reason to believe they won't carry out their threat, and therefore this is neither the time nor the place for charity. Seven is absolutely correct in her assessment. She goes directly against orders by sacrificing the invader, but in doing so she saves the ship and the crew. Janeway didn't have a third party threatening to kill her if she saved the wounded Cardassian, so what gives her the right to preach to Seven about humanity in this situation? And in such a patronizing manner, too. As Seven observes, "a lesson in compassion will do me little good if I am dead."

'Prey' is a very strong, intelligently written episode of Voyager. It uses the Hirogen more effectively than anywhere else (thank you, Tony Todd) and continues a minor story arc from 'Scorpion'. If these standards had been applied to the rest of the series it could have been something truly special. Three and a half stars is about right.

Janeway is insane and should be relieved from duty. Her stance accomplishes nothing, the prey will still die as will everyone in her crew.

The writers should have made the situation more ambiguous, but Voyager was far too outgunned to keep Janeway's decision sane. One thing is to protect the prey even if there is risk, but we are not talking just "risk" here. In this case the outcome was clear, they would die protecting the prey. Doesn't make sense, and makes Janeway a dangerous individual, not someone you want as a captain.

Goddamn, Janeway is a damned boyscout, her pussying around is going to get everyone killed one day.

Not everything has to be dealt with by diplomacy. Opening a rift to fluidic space is a stupid decision. Kill the alien, shove it out the airlock, leave the hirogen in space with a tank of air, or in an escape pod. Be on your way.

Anything else is dumb.

Was up way too late watching VOY episodes last night, Message in a Bottle, Hunters, and this one. What a great episode! Also although they leave the "what was the right thing to do" answer up in the air it's pretty obvious that if they did it Janeway's way they all would've died.

I appreciated the cargo bay scene at the end a lot too. Imagine if somebody pulled that shit on Picard when given a direct order? They would've been confined to quarters MINIMUM. I'm actually surprised she still allowed Seven in stellar cartography to be honest.

Voyager always irks me because it CAN be a pretty friggin' awesome show, it just never lasts for very long. If nothing else it appears the series does indeed have more than "10 good episodes" like I've said time and again in the past :D

Outstanding episode - never a dull moment, terrific dialogue between 7 of 9 and Janeway, Tony Todd as one of the Hirogen makes the race really come alive, and of course the return of 8472.

Great review Jammer -- "Prey" for sure is one of the best VOY episodes as it touches on a lot of what makes Trek great: the moral/ethical dilemmas, difficult questions/decisions, decent action scenes, and trying to exemplify some human values (compassion).

OK, so after "Hunters" the Hirogen were also to me, as Jammer said "utter cardboard and terribly acted." But here, focusing on 1 Hirogen we have a character and we get to understand it a bit more. I didn't realize at first it was Tony Todd from "The Visitor" - but now it makes a bit of sense with the deep voice.

As many have said, great to see the shot of the 8472 on the outside of the ship. The 8472 as being more powerful than the Borg was a real winner for me in "Scorpion" so it was a thrill to see it again given its capabilities and how different it is as an alien race. It also brought out something from 7 of 9 who is a far better addition to the cast than Kes.

Now the real meat of "Prey" is between Janeway and 7. OK, so I understand Janeway's trying to teach 7 to be more human, learning compassion. Fine. But the captain has no logical plan for dealing with the Hirogen ships and protecting the 8472. I think it's fine for her to lecture 7 on following orders, but I also don't blame 7 for her actions to save the ship (though how could she transport the 8472 and the Hirogen with shields up -- small loophole). Both Janeway and 7 were really well acted here on both occasions when the captain gives the order and 7 refuses and in the end when 7 questions Janeway on shaping her individuality.

Personally I think Janeway needs to be more pragmatic here. She should sacrifice one life (the 8472) to save her own crew. It's fine to have strong ideals etc. and to take 7 of 9 under her wing, but if she had it her way, VOY would end midway through S4.

"Prey" gets 4 stars for me. Really enjoyed everything about it -- great action scenes, great lines/acting and good use of all the Voyager important crew members (very little Neelix). Only minor nitpicks (Janeway's hard-headedness, the transporting of the 8472/Hirogen) but this episode ticks all the boxes of what makes Star Trek so good.

Very nice episode, but a nitpick: why would an ASTEROID have what appears to be a cavern with an m-class environment? (Breathable atsmosphere, roots, dripping water, etc.)

Excellent episode. Excellent review.

Why is it that every time Seven (who is supposed to not understand humanity) and Janeway (who is supposed to be the guideline on human ethics) are in disagreement over some human trait, I tend to side with Seven?

The "you missed" scene is one of my favourite Trek moments. The space suit scenes were incredibly atmospheric. Unfortunately, like Equinox, this episode paints Janeway at her worst. She forces a tactically unsound idea to carry a wounded, hostile alien away from the Hirogen shuips which Voyager cannot defeat - she's prepared to throw her life and those of 140+ crew away for the opportunity to feel better about herself. And when Seven takes the only action that can save the crew, she is heavily punished. I don't get it. Then again, Kate Mulgrew herself apparently said that Janeway was written so inconsistently that she ended up not knowing how to play her.

Janeway was correct at first, but when the Hirogen showed up, that changed everything.

She had two choices, either give them the 8472 and let them kill it, or don't give it to them and they kill everyone on Voyager including 8472. And of course she chooses the second. They had no chance of winning the battle, so sacrificing the entire ship to keep some sort of moral integrity is insane. To paraphrase Seven 'what good is morality if you're dead?'

Even Picard would have given up 8472 when he realized there was no hope of saving it. Maybe, just maybe, if it would have saved 8472, but it was dead either way. Janeway is the worst captain ever.

Nonetheless, a good episode.

3 stars.

It is hard for me to see past how much I dislike the Hirogen and how much I long never to see them again (though I know from reading the ep blurbs, that - sadly - I will). Yes, we get much better acting from Tony T, but that just doesn't do it for me.

But hard isn't impossible, so looking past my Hirogen-hate: Good ep. Loved the Janeway and Seven scenes, really nicely done.

Janeway is in a much different position than Kirk or Picard or Sisko ever was. Archer was in a sorta similar position when he was desperate to save Earth, though Janeway's position is much more ambiguous and lonely.

She has to be a leader, though her authority is no more based on Star Fleet's backing than US currency is based on the gold in Fort Knox. She is ALONE. Not just Voyager, but she herself, is infinitely vulnerable in the Delta quadrant.

She has to be be something of a mom to her crew of homeless orphans. She also has to keep order and enforce discipline while knowing she can't actually afford to lose the help and support of any one of her limited team members. She needs all hands on deck, all warm bodies in their seats - ideally.

Of course Janeway felt compassion for a wounded, abandoned creature who just wanted to get home.

2.5 stars

It was a neat idea having the Hirogen hunt species 8472. But was hoping for something a little note interesting going on

The hunt onboard voyager was mechanical. Didn’t do a lot for me in terms of suspense or excitement or being all that involving

The visit to the Hirogen ship was insightful. The vat of chemicals breaking down the bodies. The severed head courtesy of 8472. Learning more about the Hirogen culture —nomadic, traveler grear distances, life centered around the hunt. Hirogen having almost as resilient a physiology as 8472

Tuvok substituting for Kes as 8472’s telepathic mouthpiece

Janeway punishing seven I guess is good for those fans who live for that sort of thing but I could take it or leave it.

I always loved this episode, and shows the difference between Picardian idealism, and siskoian pragmatism.

Sisko would probably have given the creature to the Hirogen. And Picard would likely have done what Janeway did.

They are both right-janeway's principle vs seven's hard realism.

I'm curious - why is it that whenever the ship goes to 'Red Alert' then all the lights seem to automatically dim? Surely a (potentially) emergency situation is exactly the wrong time to have crew fumbling around in the dark as their eyes adjust? What am I missing?

Interesting comments.

I think this episode is set up to be the pragmatist vs the idealist. But usually the idealist is the protestor speaking truth to power while the pragmatist has the power. I think of the nuclear freeze advocates during the Reagan years vs Reagan. I also thing of that Jack Nicholson court scene in A Few Good Men: "You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. "

There are two problems in this episode. First, the captain of a ship in the middle of nowhere surrounded by enemies does not have the luxury of being the idealist, and in this particular case the situation was set up so that there was zero chance that Voyager would survive the final battle. Second, a story like this needs the idealist to be the one without the power and the pragmatist to be the one with the power. Janeway has all the power and her actions here seem more like Ahab destroying his boat and crew seeking the whale. As Seven says, there is no morality in suicide, and in Janeway's case she's decided that the death of her entire crew, which she has described as a family in prior episodes, is worth defending some principal. That is not even idealism; that is lunacy.

It would have been much more interesting if Voyager had some chance of success in the battle rather than being ridiculously overmatched, and if Janeway was the one who wanted to hand over the alien and someone else on the crew objected.

tanstaafl, congrats on figuring out Trek idealism. The reason the show's followers consider the Federation to be a legitimate government (and often find government in the real world to be hopelessly compromised in comparison) is because the idealists are in charge.

Jammer continues to be a true Trekkie, because in his review, he understands that the narrative goal here is not survival or pragmatism but the proliferation of human idealism. He says "Seven does not understand her humanity yet", and in the show's terms, this is obviously true.

Ironically, there are too many pragmatists on this message board to appreciate it, people who believe that humanity being itself is also humanity doing the rational thing. Further up, Amagnonx made the right pragmatic points. Human sensibilities are a particular characteristic of species with social development which sees its empathy as a general good, not just a useful tool for in-group bonding and cooperation. Strategically, this is insane, and it's probably why history has so irrevocably favored "morally compromised" power structures. Seven was clearly right: you don't suicide yourself and your people because your emotional programming flinches.

Of course, I just watched Tuvix a few days ago. Janeway can be brutally pragmatic... when her friends are on the line and the lifeform whose existence is keeping them away is ungallantly trying to avoid summary execution. You might call this inconsistent writing, but while I still like Janeway, it really is just a human doing what humans do, complete with biases, selective empathy, and a tremendous sense of unearned intellectual superiority. Janeway is a person, which means she's a mess. I wish the writers had been aware of what a wonderfully flawed character they had created.

Just had a thought on how Voyager could have made it out of this predicament in one piece and still save the life of the member of Species 8472: open the rift into Fluidic Space, take the creature through the rift and then seal the rift behind them.

Of course, this would put Voyager in Fluidic Space... but I would rather be in Fluidic Space with a member of Species 8472 that you had just rescued, rather than in normal space surrounded and about to be blasted into smithereens by six Hirogen hunting vessels.

Join an enemy you just saved by bringing them back to their home... or get blasted and lose it all?

In retrospect, I am glad we had Janeway in the way she was written. Like all of us, she was flawed: she can be inconsistent, she let her emotion get the better of her, at times she displayed incredible pettiness and vengefulness.... sometimes you’ll hate her. Hence I found her character more interesting and realistic than all the Mary Sue types that inundated TV and movies nowadays.

There’s a difference between a character having flaws and being consistently written. In “Frasier”, the character Roz is constantly chasing sex over commitment. It’s a character flaw, but it’s a consistent one and we learn to respect Roz despite the flaw. Janeway’s flaw is that she’ll follow the Prime Directive only to service the plot. We don’t know from one episode to another which way she’ll lean on the Prime Directive, because it depends on the author that week. That’s a writing flaw.

I can't believe the anti-Janeway sentiment on here. I do wonder - if the 8472 looked more human and less obviously 'alien' perhaps people would be more on her side...?? As it was, I don't agree that this was all to do with following - or not- the Prime Directive... more of a single moral judgement on the captain's behalf, and it's pretty likely that Tuvok and Chakotay at least would be in agreement with her. Seven had intriguingly strong feelings too but at their heart was an obvious grudge against this particular species. Far from a logical utilitarian judgement about saving the crew hers was just as emotionally grounded as Janeway's. Anyway, an excellent episode of a highly underrated series... I'm really enjoying seeing in again on the Horror Channel (UK) after 25 years!

I have read a lot of the comments in this thread, on both sides of the Janeway/Seven moral divide

I liked how RenC pointed out that Picard faces a similar moral dilemma when he grants Q asylum and puts the entire ship and crew at risk to protect crew from aliens that want to kill him and who are threatening to destroy the Enterprise.

Yanks later brilliantly noted how Sisko once took Worf to task saying: "We don't put civilians at risk or even potentially at risk to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose the battle and sometimes our lives. But if you can't make that choice, then you can't wear that uniform."

Janeway's decision has plenty of precedent in Starfleet/Star Trek lore....that you don't just turn wounded aliens over to murderous thugs, just because they are threatening to kill you, too, if you don't comply.

And there are several other episodes, even in Voyager, where this moral dilemma plays out.....where an innocent being, or even a being who has attacked the ship, is afforded protection by Janeway and Voyager, even at great risk to the ship.

The entire reason Voyager is in the Delta Quadrant is because Janeway placed the protection of the Ocampa over the welfare of the crew.....even though it was not their responsibility to do so, and it was the Caretaker who violated their rights and dragged them to the DQ, killing dozens of Voyager's crew in the process. The Caretaker kidnapped Voyager, killed its crew, and Janeway still granted the Caretaker's requests to protect the array from the Kazon, even at mortal risk to Voyager. That was still the moral thing to do. It was the Starfleet thing to do.

Now while there are plenty of fine arguments to be made for either choice in "Prey," and whether one agrees with Janeway's moral choice or not.....on a Starfleet vessel, ultimately it is the Captain's choice to make. Whether the Captain decides to give in to a bully's demands and sacrifice an innocent being to save their own ship, or whether they should sacrifices themselves for the moral principle.....that is the sole decision of the Captain. You cannot have random officers and crew, much less non-Starfleet personnel, substituting their own personal judgments for that of the Captain's.

So I agree with Janeway here.....both in her decisions to protect the 8472, and her discipline of Seven for insubordination.

But I think Joey Lock also made a very interesting point with his comment....."Janeway's logic in this episode is the very reason the Federation almost lost the Dominion War back home, it's the Federations peace loving "Do not harm anyone" attitude that allows species like the Borg, Hirogen, Jem'Hadar, Species 8472 etc to walk all over them, because they portray weakness and a vunerability, their morality."

I don't personally agree with the sentiment behind that, but I understand it and I know a lot of people would feel that way. And I think that mindset is precisely what is at the heart of what Starfleet has become in the new Star Trek: Picard series......that kind of morality of openness and welcoming inclusiveness can leave you exposed to those who do not share your morals or value your inclusivity.

The understanding of Starfleet and the Federation through 50 years of Trek is that, yes, there may be short term or individual consequences, but long term we are better off opening our arms to other, welcoming the alien seeking refuge, and protecting them from harm. But after the Borg, the Dominion War, and a series of other attacks and calamities, it is understandable that frightened scarred people have become weary of Starfleet's open arms policy and no longer want to be the sort of people who welcome the injured 8472 at all costs. The people who would now rather turn an alien over to hunters rather than stick their neck out for someone who isn't exactly an ally. Seven's mindset in "Prey" is exactly at the heart of the Federation's behaviors in ST:Picard......though I say this having not watched any of the new episodes with Seven's character yet.

This has been quite an interesting thread to read!

First, I'll share my big pet peeve with "Prey": That the Voyager crew constantly refer to that Species 8472 as *IT*. Like it's an android, or an amoeba, or a quasar. Every other life form is a she, he, or they (meant in the plural AND the contemporary "no gender known or asserted"). Species 8472 is not only a sentient lifeform, it is a SUPERIOR lifeform compared with every other lifeform whose world's are currently members of the Federation. Physiologically superior, intellectually superior, and technologically superior to US.

It was as though the Voyager crew took on the language of the Hirogen! The Hirogen see all lifeforms beyond their own as prey—as "it". But surely humans should not—especially given all that characteristic empathy folks in this thread have noted. Don't know the gender of, or IF there is a gender for that member of Species 8472? Use "they." Or heck, keep saying "the member of Species 8472" even, sans pronoun. Not "it."

My thoughts on a few other scenarios noted in the above comments:

Regarding Species 8472's prior stated purpose of coming to our galaxy to "purge all life," since they didn't have experience in this realm—and maybe didn't know it/we existed until the Borg burst through that rift—they may not comprehend that the Borg do not represent the manner of ALL Milky Way beings, or even the profound diversity among them. It would therefore be easy to stereotype as "Galaxy beings are hell bend on "assimilating", i.e. destroying us, therefore our survival depends on our wiping out Galaxy beings."

Considering Star Trek's overall (very annoying!!!) habit of ascribing characteristics, cultural norms, values, etc. to a WHOLE PLANET OF BEINGS based on the 5 or 15 or 500 they encounter in one tiny geographic region of a planet or of space, it's surely not out of the questions for other beings to similarly stereotype What if the first aliens from another world arrive in Romania? Or Namibia? or Samoa? Very distinct cultures and peoples. So why does Starfleet stereotype every planet based on a tiny sample group? Species 8472 may just be doing the same—they don't know any better. Yet.

Regarding the Kes plot hole noted, as to how Species 8472 got so far away from where Voyager encountered them in that Borg battle... we have no idea how expansive (in terms of across how much "space turf" covered) it had been. Voyager encountered that battle site, or the aftermath. But perhaps there were many more. Perhaps also, the rift splintered into other parts of the Delta Quadrant.

Also, given that we know Species 8472 is far more advanced than not only Starfleet, but also the Borg—and that the Hirogen are, mostly, as well—it's not such a big stretch of imagination to see that both of these (Hirogen and 8472) would be capable of traveling such distances much faster than a Starfleet or Borg vessel. Hence... 10,000 light years away, there they are.

While we do learn more about 8472 in future episodes, just focusing on what we know to this point, of episode "Prey," I don't know that we can truly know to call them a "psychopathic" civilization or beings. For all we know (at this point in the saga) they were just talking tough, based on what they knew Galaxy beings (i.e. The Borg) to be like.

To infer they are monstrous as a value system, for wiping out Bork worlds and threatening to kill all life forms (if it's NOT just big talk), then we need to look in the mirror ourselves. We destroy insect colonies all the time. Are we "evil"? for not wanting roach or termite or wasp infested homes? To Species 8472, The Borg Starfleet, etc., may be lifeforms at that level, when compared to them. The Borg (roaches/termites/wasps) invaded their home, and they came to eradicate them.

Malias sudden essay on pronouns and the even handed representation of barely humanoid fluidic space aliens aside, this has been quite a focused thread.

I'm glad people are defending Janeway. The criticism of her often smacks of bias. I do wonder sometimes if there is a gendered aspect to it. Not necessarily, but with some.

It has been rightly pointed out that Sisko and Picard often get to make inspiring Star Fleet speeches about ideals and the greater good. It is part of what makes Trek what it is, and its fanbase a largely decent bunch. Janeway never really had that luxury, often inconsistently written, or having to deal with unique situations on the hop.

This week, unlike in say, Tuvix, she is not the pragmatist, but the idealist. A wounded 8472, alone, requires her protection, and give it she will. She puts her crew in danger, but there is an ideal to uphold. There is room here for debate, and no easy answers, but people dismissing Janeway as crazy, arrogant or hateful, where they would likely label Picard impassioned or principled, are being a bit typical.

They are Star Fleet, they get to carry phasers, keep the peace and arbitrate the law in space. If they don't like what comes with then they don't get the badges and the phasers. Alas Janeway gets no such speech here because the episode is a vehicle for a compelling showdown / tiff with her daughter protege Seven. Most can appraise this, but for some "I hate Janeway.. blah blah."

Yet when she applied pragmatism to Tuvix to protect two crewmen, she's not a realist, but a murderer. Go figure. (I'm not asking for a rationale, I have read the Tuvix page, and she was 100% correct). It was a lousy situation, and she assesed the crews needs and owned the decision, and thus the guilt for it all. Without a word of complaint. Because she is a hell of a captain.

JG:

Lol, OK. My comment on pronouns was not about any human political correctness. It was noting that voyager crew refers to a superior being or life-form as "it"—which is typically what we use to refer to creatures that are way lower down on the evolutionary ladder than we fancy ourselves to be as humans. Species 8472 aren't "things", not insects or rats or a fungus. They're potentially like "gods" compared to us—at least what we (through voyager crew's eyes) know of them at this point in the series. They don't need to be "humanoid"—indeed, humanoid beings are inferior to Species 8472. (I'm not clear about the Hirogen tho. Sure, they can hunt a lonely stranded individual, but i didn't get a sense from this how a Hirogen fleet would fare if they went to fluidic space to fight armies of 8472s.

They are superior beings, not pets, not bacteria, not rocks. So using a term that we use for "inferior" things isn't in line with how we would expect this "enlightened" crew to talk.

The literary convention, also practical one, is to refer to any being as "it" until it is clearly assigned a gender or personality. This is true of animals (I refer to a dog as an "it" even though I know full well that it does have a gender, and will adjust once I know if it's male or female) as well as supernatural beings (like a ghost or monster or something similar). This individual of Species 8472 falls into that convention. Now, one can think of plenty of counter examples (why is Godzilla a "he," exactly?). But our language does not actually have a non-gendered pronoun that clearly addresses superior beings.

You'll note that in Star Trek there is a convention of assigning "it" to superior beings on occasion: V'Ger comes to mind. It's not just for "inferior beings."

I do take the point that there's an Othering inherent in labelling something as "it." But I do also wonder what motivates this rhetorical framing of Species 8472 as superior to us, evolutionarily speaking, rather than just differently evolved. There's a SF trope of assigning "superior evolution" to vicious, monstrous beings (i.e. Ash does this in Alien, Dr. Carrington of the "space carrot" in The Thing from Another World), but it's usually assigned to quasi-villains who openly admire something that lacks "human weaknesses" like empathy and emotion.

One small point to add: per "Someone to Watch of Me," Species 8472 has five sexes. So referring to this individual as either "he" or "she" run as a considerable risk of misgendering it, and there's no way to ask it about its preferred pronoun. So what pronoun do you recommend? I guess "they" might sort of work?

I think 3.5 stars is just right. I like this episode a lot.

What was interesting to me was the four-way conflict here. You had:

Hirogen vs. 8472.
Federation vs. Hirogen.
8472 vs. Borg (represented by 7 of 9)
8472 vs. Federation
Hirogen vs. Borg (briefly)
Federation (Janeway) vs. Borg

Each of the four represented species or groups had a particular point of view consistent with previous Trek history that put them all in conflict with the other three.

I was fascinated with see it play out. And the effects were stunning. Just shy of four stars.

They've definitely upped the risk factor for Season 4: Borg / 8472 / Krenim / Hirogen / Dream Invaders. That's definitely a more formidable set of opponents than the Kazon and random spacial anomalies.

Aight, NOW we've got a show! Cooking with gas on this one!

Hooters of Nine's exchange with Lameway at the end is applicable to many situations, not least the latter-day imposition of political correctness on our society, where "diversity" is encouraged so long as it's diversity of everything except opinion. Beyond that though, the entire episode was well made; others have ably enumerated its strengths.

I'll just add that any show that stokes controversy and pushes the envelope, provoking disagreements and discussion, is well done. Difficult moral questions, no simple answers, blurred lines... Gosh, why was it that only one out of every ten Voyager episodes was like this!?

Seven got shafted. I do agree that if Seven would have just opened up the dimensional gateway, then Janeway would have been happy and then have to live with the consequences of the Hirogen now making Voyager their next prey. At least that would have put ALL of the next events on Janeway’s head. Instead we get the tense battle of the attack and 8472 getting loose. If not for Seven’s quick thinking in the corridor, Voyager would either have been destroyed, or captured and then the crew tortured and hunted to death, along with the creature. Janeway just can’t acknowledge that fact when Seven suggests it at the end of the episode, but rather brushes it off as “a possibility”. If it had been me when Janeway visited the cargo bay and said how I beamed the species off the ship, I would have simply replied with “You’re welcome for my saving Voyager and it’s crew”

Janeway’s justification for helping the 8472 was ridiculous. What was needed, was a justification for not letting the Hirogen hunt the 8472. What Janeway gave, was an anecdote in defence of being compassionate to a deadly but wounded enemy. A defence of the moral goodness of being compassionate to a wounded enemy, is a valuable moral lesson; but it is no justification at all for not letting the Hirogen hunt the 8472. She missed - or evaded - the point entirely. Sometimes, compassion to one can endanger many. Sometimes, ‘the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - or the one’.

Janeway’s attempt to manipulate Seven into being compassionate was very poorly timed, and absurdly transparent. Seven’s “No !” was a welcome douche of common sense and prudence, When Seven opposes her unwisdom, Janeway defends her self-contradiction by (1) raising her voice (a frequent sign that the speaker is losing the argument, and knows it): and (2) resorts to special pleading. When she loses the argument, she switches ground again, and orders Seven to do what she wanted. The exchange was indeed “fascinating”.

That is not a criticism of the episode, but of the imprudence and illogic of a character in-universe. My sympathies were with the wounded Hirogen, and I thought Chakotay was needlessly aggressive to him. The 8472 was a very formidable enemy, as that species is seen to be in other episodes; and Janeway and Chakotay ought to have had the sense to listen to a hunter of 8472 who knew what he was talking about. Sometimes the nasty guy knows better than the good guys what he is talking about. Starfleet personnel can be too self-assured at times. The disaster of Wolf 359 should have cured them of that.

The episode is also a comment on the Prime Directive - if Janeway had bothered with it, the events of the episode would not have happened. The episode is a contradiction of Captain Archer’s behaviour in “Dear Doctor”, when Phlox and he choose to let a species die rather than give them the cure they need. The PD is an effective plot device - as a moral principle it is lousy, because it is treated so inconsistently. No wonder Janeway ignores it.

Seven is never afraid to talk back - for me, this is one of her most appealing qualities. Janeway should have acknowledged that Seven saved the ship from almost certain destruction. The episode is not one of Janeway’s best.

4 stars.

Seven makes far more sense than Janeway in this situation. By the end of the show, I began to wonder how these people lasted so long. It is even more puzzling that the rest of the crew doesn't challenge Janeway while she makes not just one, but a series of real bad decisions over time.

Okay, so this is fantasy TV show, but I still hope for a slim of realism: the universe runs on utterly impersonal mathematical laws without mercy. You are one ship on the run and with a very slim margin of survival.

Oh, by the end of the show, I reached the conclusion that Janeway was unfit for command and that the Hirogens were nice guys. I mean they let Voyager go. Or perhaps they thought humans were so dumb and unworthy to be their preys.

I see multiple people who defend Janeway's decisions in this episode lack understanding of the opposition to her perspective and ascribe the support of Seven's decision as utilitarian vs moralistic. This may be the case for some people, but I don't think you'd get the pronounced emotional reaction this episode has received if it was just that Janeway made a "tactically stupid choice."

I actually see Janeway's behavior in this episode as morally reprehensible... just not for her choice to save the 8472 creature.

I could see Picard in this situation making a very similar decision to save the alien, even if it came at the expense of his ship and possibly his life, but with one key distinction: he would make an announcement on the intercom of his decision, and allow for any crew members on board to leave the ship, as it would likely be destroyed. This way the crew had the choice on whether they were willing to sacrifice their lives on a moral stand or not, and if necessary, he would pilot the ship by himself to do it.

Janeway, instead, made a unilateral decision to save the creature, and imposed that decision on the crew, even in the face of direct opposition, even at the cost of all of their lives. She did this directly with Seven first by using persuasion, then by ordering her to do it: she gave a false choice then used her authority to force the decision. This is not the first time in the series that Janeway has done this either.

You cannot force someone to do the right thing, when you do that you're just a tyrant. This is a continual problem with Janeway, and I think the primary reason why people side so clearly against her in this episode, and probably why they dislike her in general.

In my opinion, there was no debate. I understand the writers need to fill time and weave a moral allegory, but the issue should've been resolved by stating one simple fact:
That individual 8472 member entered our galaxy as part of a military force, a force which also attacked Voyager.

I'm guessing this episode is supposed to be some sort of vague analogy for U.S. POWs left behind after Vietnam. Well, at the risk of seeming unpatriotic, maybe don't send your military into someone else's territory in the first place if you don't want to suffer the ramifications of being left behind in a region that is no less than hostile toward you.

I'm no military strategist, but launching a counter-attack against an invading force on their own turf seems to imply your territorial defenses are sound. 8472 should have protected it's own "borders", which it was clearly more than capable of doing. The moment they chose to enter our galaxy, they were on borrowed time. This was nothing more than a "delayed combat fatality" in my eyes.

In short, 7 of 9 and the Candyman were right.

Janeway was a moron in this episode. How many times has she nearly gotten the entire crew killed or sacrificed a way home to help complete strangers or obey alien laws? It's too bad Chakotay didn't take command of Voyager in the beginning, they'd have probably been home by now.

Squiggy said: "Janeway was a moron in this episode. How many times has she nearly gotten the entire crew killed or sacrificed a way home to help complete strangers or obey alien laws? It's too bad Chakotay didn't take command of Voyager in the beginning, they'd have probably been home by now."


I don't think it's a coincidence that some of Chakotay's best moments are when he comes into conflict with Captain Janeway.

@Squiggy
>Janeway was a moron in this episode. How many times has she nearly gotten the entire crew killed or sacrificed a way home to help complete strangers or obey alien laws?

In 1x10 Prime Factors if Janeway had transported Voyager 40,000 light-years nearer to home, or in 3x05 False Profits if she had ignored the Ferengi and gone through the wormhole, she would have never freed Seven of Nine and would have never defeated species 8472 thus saving the galaxy.

I really am having a hard time trying to understand Starfleet's approach to this compassion for all sentient beings thing and where is the line drawn. Are you supposed to help the wounded even if they are a known threat to you?

That's like the Defiant stopping to help an in distress Jem'Hadar ship. It doesn't make any sense.

Janeway is risking the whole crew for this alien that 1. broke onto the ship causing a breach 2. attacked crew members 3. Is being hunted by the Hirogen who have them outshipped.

I get showing compassion but this seems pretty dangerous. They are in a unique situation in the Delta Quadrant where the same rules shouldn't apply, or at least not be as black and white as Janeway tries to make them seem to Seven.

Sometimes I think she tried so hard to uphold her morals and commitment to the uniform that she forgot they were on their own far from home and didn't have the luxury to be the perfect little Starfleet officers.

The only way to enjoy some of these Voyager episodes is to watch them while pretending that Janeway is the villain of the story and the heroes are the rest of the crew who try to hold things together while she does her best to get them all killed. This is a good episode viewed in that light.


I'm really, reaaaaallly tired of this "Janeway as an alpha-male badass" routine. Kate Mulgrew's performance is only slightly more subtle than Shatner's in Turnabout Intruder. For God's sake, stop swaggering around like you're swinging a pair the size of cantaloupes.

@Malia
>We destroy insect colonies all the time. Are we "evil"? for not wanting roach or termite or wasp infested homes? To Species 8472, The Borg Starfleet, etc., may be lifeforms at that level, when compared to them.

I don't think that species 8472 are so far advanced compared to the Federation that they view them as insects. I would reserve that comparison for energy beings like the Organians. The thought of aliens being that much more advanced than us is kind of scary, lets hope they are peaceful and don't view us as insects or vermin. Who knows, perhaps we will evolve in to such powerful beings that we are like gods compared to aliens. I'd like to think that we become peaceful gods with compassion for other beings.

Over all score for this episode is 5/10.

I share Seven's exasperation with Janeway's insistence on sticking her hand in every rattlesnake hole she comes across as she meanders her way home 🙂

It's a great episode as long as you can forget Voyagers past encounter with species 8472. Would have preferred if they used a different species all together. In the first encounter the species was pure evil and made the Borg look like Girl Scouts, this helped to justify Janeway's incredible decision to partner with the Borg and to possibly prevent the destruction of the Borg. In this encounter Species 8472 has gone from Evil Alien to E.T. which really should call into question Janeway's actions to save the Borg. How many billions of lives and countless civilizations has Captain Janeway doomed to assimilation because she wanted to get her ship home?

Addition to previous comment:
The boast about tracking someone through a neutron mantle or whatever has to be just that. What could possibly survive an enivronment like that? Even in science fiction that seems a little too unlikely.

Spock in the Omega Glory used his telepathic abilities to communicate with a woman to push her to activate his communicator.

Tough call between seven and Janeway. Personally I think Janeway is right when it comes to the species 8472 creature, even having indications of their hostile tendencies it’s hard to justify throwing an injured sentient being to the wolves. Not very Starfleet. However, I’m with seven when it comes to taking a tougher more pragmatic general stance. Voyager really should stop wandering around with its guard down all the time.

The problem here is that the writers undercut the dilemma by stacking the odds against voyager to such an extreme degree. The hirogen ships were going to destroy voyager with absolute certainty, and in that light janeway’s behavior was irresponsible and stupid. If voyager had had at least a decent chance of duking it out and winning it would have provided a better foundation for the conflict between seven and Janeway. But that’s really a writing problem not a Janeway problem.

Also, I would have placed a top priority on gutting and salvaging the hirogen ship. Voyager had it available for a good while before things went sideways, seems like examining the weapons, shielding, and propulsion tech would be kinda valuable.

Janeway was beyond out of line here. So you risk your entire crew of 150 to save ONE organism that is also trying to kill you and all the officers and children on the ship, and try to force the victim of the species to help them destroy the victim? Just as insane as "memorial" and "phage". Total phoney "moral" bullshit, and the worst comedy skit verison of virtue signaling ever. She's got it backward. It's wrong to force 150 people to end their lives to save 1. It's wrong to force someone to sacrifice their own life for others when they are the ones who put you in the situation in the first place, such as with Neelix's lungs. The people defending Janeway here have some sort of mental illness. Let's not forget that if a few omega particles were floating around, then the prime directive is void and they can kill whoever they wanted to save their precious warp engines. Beyond absurd hypocrisy and phoney self sacrifice and forced sacrifice virtue signaling. Janeway is a delusional, narcissistic genocidal lunatic. Just like she had no right to FORCE neelix to be paralyzed and make the decision for him not to kill them to get his lungs back, that's not your fucking call, he's the victim, asshole. It's not your choice to make anymore. It couldn't be any more backward and contradictory. I swear starlet has morals equivalent to some cult of the 1100s.

The "Omega" episode was literally 3 episodes later! So apparently it makes sense to almost sacrifice your entire crew, who didn't ask to be stuck out there, to let them be killed by trying to save the entity that's trying to kill them, but then, if YOUR space travel ability and previous warp drive is put at risk by some random Omega Particles, then it's fine to kill or takeover a planet and void the almighty prime directive altogether. Middle-age level logic and morality.

This is where I seriously disliked 7. Of course, this entire scenario is a sci-fi fantasy, but authority is meant to be obeyed! Seven just blantantly dismisses Janeway's orders, openly disagrees and talks back to her, and is constantly disobedient! I hate that!

@Sean

Spoken like a good little drone! Authority is meant to be obeyed IF IT MAKES SENSE. If not, its a persons duty to think for themselvs and DISOBEY. Even revolt, if necessary (in this epizode it was necessary). You're the kind of moron who will obey any kind of order unquestioning, even if it's immoral or suicidal.

Now to the episode. Not much I can add that has not been sayed already. Janeway is a self-righteous, suicidal idiot (and that's fine if it wer just her, but she has a crew to think about - inexcusable). Seven did the right thing, and literally saved the ship and crew.

And she is SO right here:

"JANEWAY: Individuality has its limits, especially on a starship where there's a command structure.
SEVEN: I believe that you are punishing me because I do not think the way you do. Because I am not becoming more like you. You claim to respect my individuality, but in fact you are frightened by it.
JANEWAY: As you were."

And so restrained. In her place, I wuld have decked Janeway after that exchange, even if it lands me in the brig for a month. Idc. Seeing her picking up her teeth from the deck wuld have been worth it. Self-righteous bitch.

That all being said, absolutly awesome episode. And Seven Of Nine is a star!

4/4

@Natalya I can see why you may think that from my statement. Actually, I use the Bible as my guidebook to life. So, I obey authority as long as it doesn't conflict with God's law. So, that said, any "immoral or suicidal" orders from governmental authorities I would not obey. As can be seen by how sometimes governments try to force us into immoral actions-that wouldn't be obeyed.
Yet, in the case of this episode, there was nothing immoral or suicidal that is mentioned. That topic doesn't apply.
But I apologise for not explaining where the limits of man's authority ends. Following God's way is always the best solution-I have seen the beneficial results many times in life, and I look forward to the Bible's promise for the future where the whole Earth will be perfect under God's Kingdom rule

I get that Sean is in a cult but it sure is interesting how servile the men here are towards religious fundamentalism, considering how much damage it has done in the US in recent years when it comes to LGBT and women's rights. As always you men, who probably perceive yourself as heroes who just didn't have the right opportunity to shine. Find nothing wrong with what our little lightbringer said As so often before when we would need some basic human decency in other words genuine concern and support most of you are continue to be a huge disappointment. That's why we have save spaces, that's why we never count on you and that is why we would rather run into a bear than one of you!

Just for context, women in the old testament are defined as property of men. So when a guy pushes out sermon after sermon about how he is against the very legal basis America was founded on and how wonderful a biblical theocracy would be. Still, your silence becomes louder and louder. You maybe don't care about women's rights or the recently again increasing persecution of LGBT people. Why should you? You are neither. Good people thinking. Maybe you think that Sean is such a nice guy, why call him out for pushing rules developed in Babylon 2600 years ago. Fun fact, Stalin was a real nice party guest. Very personable. He was also one of the worst people in Human history. Point being, horrible things nicely said are still horrible.

I hope you have me all blocked already or at least ignore me, another tried and tested male behavior. You are weak, useless little snowflakes! As always thanks for nothing. Maybe three of you are excused, the rest is part of the problem. Oh and Jammer, considering that both of them are also part of a discriminated minority, I guess.

Thanks for ignoring me or getting angry for giving you a little reality check peppered with German frankness.

If you ever asked yourself how people throughout history could overlook the real state of things, leading to their downfall, then you can stop now. Just reflect on your own mindset. While people like me continue to scream into the silence.

To quote the bible:"Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh. "

Booming out!

Off the meds again I see.

@Booming

"I get that Sean is in a cult"

Yep. I get the same impression. Can't decide betwen unquestioning religius obedience, or government obedience, as being worse. But he likes following orders of *some* authority. That, to me, is alredy a red flag.

And that he sees nothing worth rebelling over in this ep, is another red flag.

And no. You're not in danger of being blocked by me. I'm not American nor have i ever been there, but I like the way you see things! ;)

Corection - some things. We disagree on LGBT, but thats not a topic for this forum.

Also, Babylonian law has it's value. Eye for an eye is something I very much subscribe to.

But, mostly in sync. Especialy women's rights :)

"Eye for an eye is something I very much subscribe to."

Just a small point of interest, this statement is not meant as a prescription, but rather a proscription against punishments *exceeding* reasonable bounds. It is not meant to be an instruction to actively seek proportional revenge or revenge of any kind.

@Peter G. Was that statement meant for me? I agree about what you said about "eye for an eye" I wasn't recommending any kind of revenge

@Peter G

Revenge is good for the soul. Take it from me. Leaving scores unsettled just leads to self-delusions of 'moving past it'. The reason a smal minority of powerful people in the world get away vith so much crap, is because most people don't belive in revenge and put too much faith in human nature.

Think of it as balance. But I agree with being proportional about it.

@Natalya Oh, that was to you! I must have missed your earlier comment. Well, as far as revenge goes, I follow Romans 12:19, and leave things in God's hands. I try not to poison myself with embittered feelings. This is always a battle of course, but it is something I work on, and with God's help, can accomplish

@ Natalya,

I wasn't taking a position on revenge, but just clarifying an oft-misappropriated Bible verse.

Every Episode of Voy:

Hard Headed Aliens - We are hard headed and will destroy and kill! Rar!
Janeway - Now crew, remember my principles. We need to take it up the A$$ from these Hard headed aliens.
Tuvok - Shields down to 5%.
Janeway - Fire phasers. Target their weapons systems only!
*Phasers do nothing, Some other character or deus ex machina then saves the ship*
Janeway - How dare you save the ship! You could've killed some of the Hard Headed Aliens by doing that. Next time, let us die.
*Roll credits*

@Picard

Yeaaaaa. Thats Voyager in a nut-shell. Fair is fair, Janeway had her few shining moments (especialy agaisnt the Kazon, even if her tactics sucked ass). But usualy she's a self-rigteous, suicidal, holier-then-thou bitch.

And thats coming from a woman. She doez NOT do us justice in a captains chair. Seven, on the other hand... well. She shuld've got her captain's chair a LOT sooner then the end of ST: Picard. Lets leave it at that. She's a STAR!

Voyager works best if you watch it from the pov of Janeway being the villain of the story.

@ Picard and others

I'll argue the opposite. This "Starfleet" version of Janeway is the one I can get behind, endorse, and support.

My issues with the character were murdering Tuvix, making an alliance with the Borg (Chakotay: "We'd be helping the Borg assimilate yet another species just to get ourselves back home. It's wrong."), torturing the crew member of the Equinox, shitting on the temporal prime directive, blah, blah, blah.

Writers couldn't decide if she was supposed to be Lawful Good Female Picard™ or some crazy chaotic natural parody of the Bride of Chaotica. Not sure how Kate Mulgrew managed to pull off such 180s in her character on a weekly basis.

@Tim
>Writers couldn't decide if she was supposed to be Lawful Good Female Picard™ or some crazy chaotic natural parody of the Bride of Chaotica.

What about Picard in the TNG episode The Neutral Zone? He pretty much disregarded the lives of the cryogenically frozen humans saying they were dead anyway.

There's riker who (I forget which episode, I think it's Chain of Command or Unification) physically intimidated a Ferengi in order to get information.

I'm pretty sure captain Archer did some bad stuff too, so Janeway is not the only inconsistently written character. In regards to Janeway's alignment, I'd say she's neutral good. For example in Counterpoint she helped smuggle those telepaths even though it was a breach of local law, yet in other episodes she respects local law where reasonable.

@EventualZen

I'm going to say there's a wee bit of a difference between grabbing someone by the lapels and threatening them with a gruesome death by the extradimensional-alien-of-the-week. Riker threatened to revoke the dude's transit permit. Janeway threatened to KILL the Equinox crew member and my recollection is she was serious about it too. It wasn't a bluff.

I can't think of anything Picard or Archer did that rises to the level of Janeway's actions in Scorpion/Equinox, or, you know, the MURDER of Tuvix.

Sisko, different story. DS9 fans like to gloss over the whole "rendered an entire planet uninhabitable" aspect of his character. I think that was a pretty lousy writing choice actually, Trek has always glossed over certain things (following orders in Starfleet is apparently optional in every series) but that was a bridge too far, IMHO.

Anyhow, Counterpoint is one of my favorite episodes and I supported Janeway's actions in that episode. I could see Picard doing something similar in that situation. That kind of proves my point though, she was written very inconsistently.

Did Voyager have a "series bible" like TNG? If it did, they certainly seem to have ignored it after Season 3 or so. TNG got up to Season 6/7 before they started ignoring the bible.

@Tim
>MURDER of Tuvix

She resurrected two lost crew members who never volunteered to give their lives up to create Tuvix. I believe (had they used holographic versions of the dead crew) Tuvok would have argued that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Point taken about Riker but as for Sisko and Archer if Janeway acted like them at their worst, fans would call her out for it.

She murdered Tuvix, a separate and unique person, in order to resurrect the two crewmen. What's scary is that some of you on this site would do the same thing. Put yourself in Tuvix's shoes. You're being ordered to your death so that two already-deceased people can be brought back. You don't know them. You do know the remaining crew, and they've come to know you. You've done an exemplary job. Your only crime, it appears, is that your existence is of less value to Janeway than those other two crewman. So, you will now be murdered to bring them back.

She's a murderer.

Scenario: the breaks on a car fail. The driver swerves to miss a pedestrian. The pedestrian is spared, but, unfortunately, the car hits and grievously wounds the driver and a bystander.

By the logic of the writers of Voyager, the EMTs have the right to kill and harvest the organs of the surviving pedestrian in order to save the lives of the driver and the bystander.


P.S. Never put your characters in this type of moral quandary on a weekly tv show that depends on your audience rooting for your heroes!

Christ, I can't spell. :(

@ EventualZen

I don't have photographic recall of Enterprise, but I do for TNG/DS9/VOY and I can't recall Sisko ever coming close to Janeway's aforementioned actions with the exception of the example (For the Uniform) I already offered.

You could call out In the Pale Moonlight, except, in that episode he was acting with the blessing of Starfleet Command during a time of war.

Janeway's actions in Scorpion and Equinox speak for themselves. I've long been deeply discomforted by the former. Suffice it to say, Chakotay was speaking for me throughout that episode. I almost think the writers didn't clearly think through the consequences of her decisions in that episode, except, they did, because Chakotay was there to argue the other side.