Star Trek: Voyager
Air date: 2/11/1998
Written by Jeri Taylor
Directed by David Livingston
Review by Jamahl Epsicokhan
"Don't pay attention to rumors."
"Don't pay attention to Neelix."
— Neelix and me
Nutshell: Many poignant moments, though the episode's primary drive is saddled with another cartoon subplot.
"Message in a Bottle" three weeks ago perfectly exemplified the uneasy duality of shallow cartoon versus serious drama that Voyager's fourth-season adventure angle has supplied. Now "Hunters" drives that point home even further. I'd heard a couple weeks ago that "Hunters" would supply the dramatic character-oriented follow-up that I was thirsting for in "Message." So I was anticipating what I hoped would be one of the best episodes yet this season.
Well, like much of season four, I've been left with a generally positive impression—but at the same time, I find myself disappointed that the show still didn't nearly live up to its potential. What we could've had was a pivotal moment in the series' run. What we got instead was a good hour with a number of poignant, important moments but also some glaring problems.
At least Voyager is consistent.
"Hunters" is the second episode in what will undoubtedly become known as the "Hirogen arc," but this episode is really about something much more important to Voyager: the issue of how crew members feel when they receive an update from their Alpha Quadrant friends and families—in the form of letters that come trickling through the alien communications array that Starfleet has managed to further utilize.
Some of these moments have been years in the making, and I think the writers should be commended for biding their time in addressing this issue. They toyed with the idea back in first season's "Eye of the Needle," but by waiting three years before finally making it really happen, they've allowed the opportunity for family and friends back home to move on with their lives.
It brings up some interesting questions, and that's where the gold of "Hunters" lies. I very much appreciated that most of the letters from home presented uneasiness rather than quick fixes, because I suspect that's the way it really would be.
Case in point: Chakotay learns that the Maquis have been decimated by the Cardassian/Dominion alliance. This is good stuff. Not to beat a dead horse, but I think it has been far too long since the word "Maquis" has been uttered on Voyager. The fact that all the Maquis back in the Alpha Quadrant are gone now undoubtedly hits the Maquis population on Voyager pretty hard. Chakotay's reaction to this devastating news is an especially poignant moment. Similarly, the sullen scene where Chakotay informs Torres of the Maquis' fate is one of the episode's highlights.
On the other hand, I still don't think this will have all the effects I want it to, especially considering the only Maquis crew members we see in the entire episode are Chakotay and Torres. Sure, there's a vague reference to "all the others," but when it comes down to it, Chakotay and Torres are the only real Trek characters left who could speak for the Maquis, and they only began to discuss what was worth discussing. I find that unfortunate, because I think there was a lot more that could've been said. I can dream of more dialog: Why not some acknowledgement from the non-Maquis part of the crew? Why is there no discussion about it between Chakotay and Janeway? I might as well just keep dreaming, since there's about zero chance of getting more complex questions out of it. As I've said (too) many times before, that aspect of Voyager is dead, cremated, dispersed, long gone, and forgotten.
But never mind. The true overriding theme is in how suddenly being back in contact with your origins after having been out of contact with them for so long is bound to prove anything but easy. Not only difficult for the Voyager crew, but difficult for the families back home. Chakotay puts it nicely when he mentions that such sudden news proving the Voyager crew is alive is likely to be difficult to those who had finally accepted that their loved ones were gone—especially considering that the ship may not reach home for 60 years anyway.
Janeway's situation makes a great example of this dilemma. The letter she receives is from her (former) fiancee Mark. And with this letter she realizes that the inevitable has occurred—that Mark has moved on with his life after having held on to his hopes longer than most. He has since married someone else. It's not something that Janeway finds particularly surprising; it's just that the fact it wasn't surprising doesn't make accepting the inevitable any easier. Her mention to Chakotay that the letter had such a "finality" was well said—perfectly said, in fact.
The strength of "Hunters" lies in its ability to involve the major characters in different ways. Take Tom, for example. He's hoping that he won't get a letter at all, because he would just as soon sever all connections he had with home. The fact that he has more on Voyager than he ever had back in the Alpha Quadrant is an issue that has a great deal of relevance. I also wonder what much of Voyager's Maquis population thinks "home" could offer them now knowing the entire Maquis organization has been wiped out.
I do have some complaints with the way two characters were handled. The first is Ensign Kim, who throughout the episode becomes his own mini-story, in which the suspense is whether or not Harry will get a message from his folks. I see what Jeri Taylor was going for here, but it's trite and obvious. Very. And it hammers home some larger issues about the whole character of Harry Kim, who is virtually the embodiment of innocent, uninteresting sterility. Harry once referred to himself as "Harry read-me-like-a-book Kim." That's a pretty accurate description. He's becoming as transparent as Neelix, although not as annoying. Garret Wang needs much more challenging material than this, because his kid-like innocence is not believable any more—especially given that the starship Voyager is such a precarious, unusual place for the average Starfleet officer.
The second character gripe is Neelix. I have to point an angry finger at Ethan Phillips this week, who performs the silly Talaxian in a way that leaves much to be desired. Sure, letters from home (even if it isn't his home) is exciting and everything, but Neelix's "cute" joyfulness was way, way overdone. The character was absolutely horrendous this week, transforming (temporarily, I hope) back into the "second season Neelix" who was utterly agonizing to watch. The scene where he reads the letter to "Mr. Vulcan" made me want to slap him around—a lot. And when he told Harry, "Don't pay attention to rumors," in a voice that would seem condescending even to an average third-grader, I wanted to put him into a photon torpedo and launch him into the nearest star (or perhaps a small black hole given this week's premise). I'll grant that his part wasn't particularly well written this week, but this sort of vexatious portrayal was something I'd thought Phillips had left behind almost two seasons ago.
And even though it doesn't matter much, I want to voice one other complaint: I find it absurd that the writers seem to think that no one on Voyager has heard of the Dominion. When Voyager premiered in January 1995, the Dominion was already a major part of DS9 lore. "The Jem'Hadar" had aired almost seven months previous.
But before I shift the tone of this review and give the impression that I didn't really like "Hunters," I'd better stress that most of the human moments in the story worked well for me, including some bits like the nice moment where Seven realizes that even she may discover some "emotional resonance" if she ever finds her way to distant family members back on Earth.
So that leaves one other order of business for a review of "Hunters": the subplot involving the Hirogens, a savage race of hunters who, as Tuvok aptly puts it, "lack any moral center." Quite simply, I could've done without this whole thing, which only serves to shift focus away from the emotional core of the story, just as "Message in a Bottle's" comedy plot did. The Hirogens are rather boring cartoon characters who provide conflict in only the most superficial and forced of ways. They're the typical Bad Guys of the Week (or, more correctly, the bad guys of this week and the next three weeks). Their dialog is laughable, their characterizations nonexistent, and their line delivery a series of grunts and growls. If this is the nemesis we have to watch in the next four episodes, I'm hoping those episodes will be carried by their action and plotting—because the Hirogens certainly won't be carrying it.
The "plot" involves the Hirogens kidnapping Tuvok and Seven from a shuttlecraft (which I think, incidentally, was lost, for those out there keeping track). They're held hostage and threatened, leaving the task to Janeway to negotiate their return. Yeah, right. As Seven might say, negotiation is irrelevant. The Hirogens want to keep Seven and Tuvok so they can slice them up and mount them as trophies.
In the meantime, Tuvok's attempts at negotiation are pathetic, as the writers give him unbelievably inappropriate lines like "Release us now and you will be safe, otherwise we will destroy you" and "If you kill us, our captain will hunt you down and show no mercy." These utterances don't sound like anything that stems from a Vulcan or Federation ethos, let alone Tuvok's character. It's just fortunate "Hunters" has so much else going for it, because the story involving the hunters is nearly a total bust.
In more positive news, I liked some of David Livingston's execution techniques. The opening in particular was nice—somewhat reminiscent of Contact—as the camera looks into the depths of space while a static-laden signal is heard on the audio track. Also, the interiors of the Hirogen ship were impressively decorated and photographed. The Hirogen themselves may be laughable, but at least their sets are kind of neat. And the climax, for all its ridiculous technobabble, was charged with a sense of urgent apocalyptic adrenaline, featuring the latest in micro-quantum singularities as super cosmic vacuum cleaners, which threaten to suck starships into oblivion. Or something.
But I think I've said enough. With "Hunters" we once again have an episode that could've been outstanding, and once again I'm only giving it a marginal recommendation. How unfortunate.
Next week: The Hirogen are in for the long haul ... and species 8472 has a supporting role.
Previous episode: Message in a Bottle
Next episode: Prey
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112 comments on this post
Sun, Jan 13, 2008, 10:42am (UTC -5)
Tue, Feb 26, 2008, 6:46am (UTC -5)
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 2:15pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 4:33pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 9:21am (UTC -5)
They might have uncovered all of Harry's message (or just found out that that message of which they had 90% already was Harry's as they uncovered the last 10%), while not getting any more than that greeting for Tom.
Wed, Jan 6, 2010, 5:10am (UTC -5)
Mon, May 17, 2010, 9:53am (UTC -5)
Neelix is definitely at his most annoying. I hate the scene where Neelix bosses Tuvok around in regards to when he should be reading his letter. Neelix's line at the end of the scene ("Now read it right away, no procrastinating, etc.") makes me upset each time I hear it. Who is Neelix to be dictating to people when to read their letters? As morale officer shouldn't he be respecting people's wishes?
I did like the scene where Chakotay informs B"Elanna of the Maquis deaths, but I think Dawson's performance is too cliched. Wanting to take violent revenge, I guess, is expected. But when she follows her outburst with "when we get home." just shows how pointless that feeling is. I think a quieter expression of rage would have made more sense to me. But I guess it can be explained away by her Klingon half.
So, a fairly good episode for this series, but as you said there could have been a lot more.
Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 9:35am (UTC -5)
Do I care about how this or that makes the crew members FEEL, about their relationships, about complexes? No. If I did, I'd watch Oprah.
Let's hope the episode picks up the pace though I see Kim just entered Astrometrics to find Torres poking around the place. I bet we're in for five minutes of Kim and his "I miss you ma and pa, do you think they remember me; do you think they sent me a letter; when am I going to get my letter...?" Oy vey...
Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 7:54pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 11:45pm (UTC -5)
They might have uncovered all of Harry's message (or just found out that that message of which they had 90% already was Harry's as they uncovered the last 10%), while not getting any more than that greeting for Tom."
That's all very possible. Might it also be possible that B'elanna lied and deleted Tom's message, after reading it and seeing that his dad was being a jerk? I dunno. Maybe.
And I disagree about the inclusion of the Hirogen subplot being a mistake. While we are all obviously going to be drawn to the bits about the letters, if there were no action at all in this episode, many viewers will judge it a failure. Personally, I thought the proportions of story time were nearly perfect.
Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:43pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 12:23pm (UTC -5)
Voyager left DS9 around stardate 48315.6. 'The Search' -- DS9's season 3 premiere that occurred months after the events in 'The Jem Hadar' -- occurred on stardate 48213.1. So how in the hell would the Maquis not have known about the Dominion?
The only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that Starfleet kept the Dominion information under wraps, and that it didn't get to the Maquis. But this seems pretty doubtful, given the destruction of the Odyssey and the fact that the Maquis had Starfleet sympathizers and good intelligence gathering (remember the guy in the shadows in the infirmary in DS9's 'Tribunal'?). And, anyway, the Maquis were based pretty close to the wormhole, and had Bajoran members.
Also, the events of 'Defiant' show that the Maquis had knowledge of DS9's new vessel and put a plan (which was fairly complex and presumably time consuming) into action to capture it. Why did the Maquis think this new warship was docked at DS9?
There are some Jem Hadar tidbits that pop up elsewhere in Voyager. I seem to recall Kes doing flight training against a simulated Jem Hadar attack at one point in season 2, and Jem Hadar show up among the holo-created Alpha Quadrant races (with ties to the Hyrogen) in season 7. So, if Starfleet officers on Voyager knew of the Dominion, are we to believe that this new, huge looming threat never got mentioned to Chakotay or Torres?
I think the Voyager creators just dropped the ball on continuity (again). BTW, the story wouldn't have taken a hit had Chakotay and Torres known about the Dominion because the drama hinges on the alliance and subsequent attack.
Fri, Apr 6, 2012, 4:32am (UTC -5)
Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 1:02am (UTC -5)
I really can't stand the Hirogen. Almost as much as the Kazon.
Tue, Jul 3, 2012, 1:09pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 8:32am (UTC -5)
Thu, May 9, 2013, 11:54am (UTC -5)
Mon, May 13, 2013, 12:24pm (UTC -5)
And if they did built it, that goes to show that their culture and technology have been in decline.
Tue, Jul 9, 2013, 10:15pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Dec 11, 2013, 7:59pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Dec 11, 2013, 8:02pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Dec 11, 2013, 9:42pm (UTC -5)
Tue, Jan 7, 2014, 2:56pm (UTC -5)
Sat, Aug 23, 2014, 12:24pm (UTC -5)
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 11:55pm (UTC -5)
This isn't a good start in learning of the Hirogen. The idea of them being a hunter species is interesting, if not fresh. But as it's displayed here, they come across as simply the big bad tough guys that will be around for some time.
The scenes involving the Voyager crew receiving the letters from home fared way better, despite the par for the course continuity issues. Some really great dialogue and performances sold it with heart and poignancy.
Neelix prodding Tuvok as he normally does is just Neelix being himself. He doesn't do it thinking he's going to make Tuvok suddenly change. He does it because it's probably his way of showing affinity for him. In the case of this episode, Neelix is utilizing his Morale officer position to encourage Tuvok to take two minutes from what he's doing to read what his family has to say. I think anyone in that position, even Janeway, would encourage that. But since it's Neelix, bring on the hate rhetoric.
I would be lying if I said this episode wasn't a disappointment. It was. However, it does mostly work on its own terms and, overall, is still pretty solid.
Mon, Sep 15, 2014, 5:14pm (UTC -5)
Thu, Jan 8, 2015, 6:19pm (UTC -5)
The hunting special isn't exactly a new concept for Trek and sci fi, but at least they fleshed out the Hirogen. With it's seven year run I'm glad Voyager was able to touch on theme that went great with it's premise.
Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16pm (UTC -5)
I was never fond of the scheming, sneaky, plan within a plan hidden behind a plot to set a trap kind of villains (Looking at you, Cardassians!). They're too often used for cliffhanger endings (something I loathe) and false suspense. I'll take the physically imposing, simplistically brute species. But that's just me, I guess.
As many already point out, Neelix overstepped his bounds by needlessly pestering the one person they apparently want him to have his yin/yang friendship with. He has no business reading Tuvok's mail, no business telling him when he should be reading it and no business interfering in Tuvok's personal affairs.
I don't even understand why they need a mailman. It's the 24th century and they're on a technologically advanced, but still very small spaceship. Forward it to their private folders in their quarters or something. But I suppose this was the only way they could think of to put Neelix to use. Another pointless job that doesn't really need to be done by anyone. He's racking up quite a few of them.
Some of the stuff I really liked were:
The Hirogen design. Huge, physically imposing and appropriately frightening looking. They did a wonderful job with their make up and design.
Seven's subtle humanization continuing to trickle through bit by bit every episode, this one being no exception.
Janeway's superb deliver when confronted with her piece of news from back home.
Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 8:09pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 8:13pm (UTC -5)
"The single best Neelix scene in Voyager remains the one in 'Meld' where Tuvok had the vision of strangling him to death."
Sun, Nov 15, 2015, 7:26pm (UTC -5)
I say that because, while this episode on the whole was very good, I think they did mishandle the Maquis aspect. They may be willing to work together in the Delta quadrant, but they would still have quite a bit of loyalty to their comrades back home. And finding out that your friends are all dead is going to be a huge shock. So how did they do that?
Chakotay was upset about it, naturally. He told Torres in a touching scene. Very nice. Then, once he said that, he was back to being his normal, half-stoned self. No show of emotion at all. OK, fine, maybe he is just an ultimate professional and able to control himself while on duty. But then look at how he acted when in private with Janeway. Poor widdle captain got a dear John letter, and Chakotay is so concerned with Janeway's tiny problem while ALL HIS FRIENDS ARE DEAD! Maybe, just maybe, he has more important problems to worry about? Nah, it's all about Janeway's problem that she had already suspected had happened. We all know who's problems are really important, and it's not Chuckles'.
Torres was dealt with a little better, but I think the acting (and writing) during her scene with Paris was off. She talks with Paris about his problems, which is fine, but then suddenly shouts out that she has sadness too! It just felt awkward as heck. It would have been better if Paris had noticed something was wrong with B'Elanna and asked her about it first. After all, if the two of them are serious, then surely he should notice if she was a bit out of sorts. It would give their relationship a bit more heft.
And naturally, at the end, Torres was back to normal and the Maquis completely forgotten. Instead of a reference to Neelix's party, I think they should have ended the episode with all the Maquis crewmembers having a solemn wake for their dead friends. That would allow the show to drop the issue and move on (as it obviously wanted to do) but still give it the solemnity that the issue deserves.
Fortunately, the rest of the episode was pretty good. Sure it had the traditional last second dramatic fight, but they telegraphed the ending with the black hole bit, so it worked pretty well. The Hirogen vessel was appropriately creepy, and the intro to the show was awesome. They did a reasonable job of mixing up real human interest along with a decent action story. Just wish they could have handled the Maquis aspect a little better.
Wed, Dec 9, 2015, 1:46am (UTC -5)
I also agree with everyone else that the whole concept of the PADDs was ridiculous. You don't need to physically deliver mail or official reports. Just use the Internet to download them to each person's personal email inbox in their quarters.
Sun, Feb 14, 2016, 7:24am (UTC -5)
The Hirogen are a bit one note at the moment - and that note is a kind of uninteresting Predator - and I'd agree that the actioner sits slightly at odds with the more reflective rest of the episode. 3 stars then.
Wed, May 18, 2016, 12:36pm (UTC -5)
Great review, but I'll part ways with you concerning Tuvok. He was just speaking to the Hirogen in a manner he thought they would respond to. It was logical.
I like their ship, their size and "lack of morals". This episode made be think of Tosk for some stupid reason :-)
The way Neelix delivered "the mail" was how it was done back when I first joined the Navy. So, while I don't understand why in the 24th century folks can't get stuff electronically, it brought back find memories. I agree Jammer, I thought this Neelix had left us for good.
I thought the reaction from our heroes during "mail call" was genuine and heartfelt. Some choked up ole Yanks. But I agree with Skeptical, this was a fantastic opportunity for the Maquis to get out of the past and move forward. A missed opportunity here by the writers.
I haven't seen this is quite awhile, but I never remember giving a shit whether someone on Voyager knew about the Dominion or not. This can only be a concern of "niners".
3 of 4 stars for me. Problems, but I still enjoy it.
Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 2:51am (UTC -5)
Mon, Nov 7, 2016, 3:53am (UTC -5)
That Star Wars movie was the last one I watched and I don't think I'll ever watch another. Mesa funking hate the Jar Jar that much.
Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 4:34am (UTC -5)
Thankfully, this would be addressed in a later episode, Hope and Fear:
SEVEN: You were a member of the Maquis. Starfleet Command will no doubt hold you responsible for a multitude of crimes. You will find nothing on Earth but adversity.
TORRES: Well, that's looking on the bright side. Let's put it this way: I'd rather face the music at home than spend the rest of my life in the Delta Quadrant.
Though I agree with you that it would probably have contributed more to both the characters and the plot if the Maquis had been shown to agonise some more over this.
I, too, think that Torres destroyed Tom's message, or at the very least, put it at the back of the downloading queue, so to speak. I thought the final bridge scene where she delivered the last batch of letters implied that she had decided to prioritise Harry's letter over Tom's, because she knew how much that meant to Harry, and that he'd probably appreciate his letter more than Tom would.
As for the final scene between Janeway and Chakotay - HA! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw that Chakotay was basically thinking, 'Great, now she's single and has no reason (or safety net) to rebuff me anymore - time to move in for the kill!' And then Janeway immediately manouevring him back into the friendzone. I found a whole lot funnier than I probably should have..
Sun, Apr 9, 2017, 7:20am (UTC -5)
I mean I'm no Lifetime movie nut or anything, but wouldn't this have made perfect sense in the end? I mean Mark's out of the picture and all.. what a set up!
Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 12:49am (UTC -5)
The Hirogen stuff was just... alright. They really are quintessential planet of hats and while not a rip-off, since they are clearly not trying to hide the Predator influence, it's not a terribly creative hat either. Still, the Voyager crew going against predators could be fun. And they are at least genuinely intimidating, so still better than Kazon.
Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 1:36pm (UTC -5)
And even if everyone dislikes Neelix, it seems appropriate as the "goodwill ambassador" for him to bring the letters to the crew.
Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 4:43pm (UTC -5)
The ending had some technobabble to get Voyager out of the black hole -- not sure what exactly Janeway & Co. did with some kind of pulse to destroy the station and suck the Hirogen ships in -- not to mention Harry transporting 7 of 9 and Tuvok out in the nick of time. He made it seem like it was highly unlikely that he'd be able to transport them back given the gravitational pull of the black hole but it was done anyway. Oh well.
Must say the Hirogen ship was pretty cool - from the inside and outside.
I guess my big issue with this episode is the juxtaposition of 2 completely different "sub plots". Wish it had done away with the Hirogen hunting part and just focused on the letters and playing out the crew's reactions more. Instead it wasted time with Neelix and Harry Kim's crappy acting/lines.
"Hunters" barely gets to 2.5 stars for me. The balance was off in this episode -- the Hirogen/hunting part didn't start until quite late and wrapped up very quickly with some dubious technobabble solution. The part about the letters allowed some good character moments about the crew's home -- probably something long overdue to hear about, but it left some loose ends (Paris' dad, the killing of the Maquis, and even what Harry Kim's folks had to say).
Mon, Sep 4, 2017, 12:37pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 6:56pm (UTC -5)
Chakotay takes two steps forward and says with a bland expression:
"How do you feel about that?"
Seriously writers? Seriously Beltran/Chakotay?Really??
The aliens were indeed comical as Jammer pointed out. I also believe some of the dialogues were poorly written as Jammer said. However, I tend to agree with Lenny (from 2010) that Tuvok's attempt at persuading the aliens was not bad.
Otherwise I thought this was one of the better episodes of the season.
Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 1:16pm (UTC -5)
Mark is Janeaway's fiance surely? Also she doesn't have any children. With that in mind what Chuckles asks isn't that dense.
Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 1:19pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 7:23pm (UTC -5)
You are totally right, I don't know what I was thinking when I said "married" and "with children."
Nevertheless, my criticism still stands. It is devastating news to her obviously. I can tell that much from her mood since she read the letter and her tone when she delivers the news to Chakotay. Not only is it a bland question for that moment (writer's fault) but the way Beltran delivers it, is as if asking a cashier "How much does my purchase cost?"..
Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 8:04pm (UTC -5)
Fri, Nov 3, 2017, 12:26pm (UTC -5)
JANEWAY: It was from Mark, the man I was engaged to. He told me about the litter of puppies my dog had, and how he found homes for them. How devastated he was when Voyager was lost. How he held out hopes we were alive longer than most people did until he realised that he was clinging to a fantasy. So he began living his life again. Meeting people, letting go of the past. About four months ago, he married a woman who works with him. He's very happy.
CHAKOTAY: How do you feel about that?
JANEWAY: It's all right. You can say it. On top of all that, I got a Dear John letter. It wasn't really a surprise. I guess I didn't really expect him to wait for me considering the circumstances. It made me realise that I was using him as a safety net, you know, as a way to avoid becoming involved with someone else.
CHAKOTAY: You don't have that safety net any more.
While I don't think Beltran did much with the scenes with Janeway -- maybe he couldn't, given how Chakotay was written as alternatively dense or a smirking opportunist in those scenes -- I think that he handled the Maquis-revelation scene with Torres/Dawson very well. The Maquis material feels incomplete, especially since we never do see Chakotay making a shipwide announcement, or talking with Janeway about what it means for him to know that he's in relative comfort and security, accepted back into the fold by Janeway, when the rest of his organization has been mostly slaughtered and a handful of the lucky ones are in prison. But the Chakotay/B'Elanna scene and her rant to Harry are good moments, and at least I know that (SPOILER), even if maybe too little too late, this *will* come up again (in Extreme Risk). Tuvok's quiet reaction to his family's message is also touching, and I like the ambiguity that remains in Tom's avoidance of hearing about his father's letter and then his uncertainty in dealing with it not coming in. I don't know if I agree with the theory mentioned earlier that B'Elanna deliberately deleted the message from Tom's father, though it's an interesting one; but what I like is the idea that Tom is so grateful for the miracle of his place on Voyager that he can't even handle the idea of looking back, that the disappointment of his father's view of him will be hard to control and contain even when among friends and loved ones. Parents, man. I like that a full range of reactions is shown from the main characters, and that most people end up with a sort of ambivalence about the news they've gotten, grateful to finally know what has been gnawing at them but maybe saddened by the way life has passed them by, and what they are just now discovering they really *have* lost. The quiet moment where Seven is reminded by Janeway that she might have family in the AQ is also powerful.
Anyway, yeah, Neelix is annoying, especially in the Tuvok scene. And Harry's going on about his parents' letter is hard to watch, less because it's that bad for Harry to want to hear from his folks, but because the scenes get highly repetitive and there are no new notes. The basic idea is that Harry has uncomplicated joy at hearing from home, and this contrasts with the ambivalence or heartbreak (or restraint, in the case of Tuvok) that everyone else has; it's important for the episode to have this kind of positivity be displayed in someone. I just wish it were done in a less one-note fashion. (Also, what about Libby? I guess he just assumes they're over.)
The Hirogen stuff is bad and boring and I just wanted to forward to the next scene. As others said above, I think Tuvok's simplistic threats weren't out of character but were indications that Tuvok was tailoring his approach to what he believed the Hirogen culture was, so that's fine on a character level but on an entertainment level it's unclear why we are supposed to care about these generic baddies. I might have had more to say immediately after the episode but I've already forgotten most about these scenes except for a general distaste and annoyance. I think this is an episode that could have simply ditched the action subplot and gone with straight drama (and probably comedy), but I know that this is Voyager we're talking about.
3 stars is fair, I think.
Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 6:06pm (UTC -5)
I enjoyed this one. Season four and six were Voyager’s best years and while not that consistent in the way TNG was weekly—they were pretty decent if uneven
Season four started out wobbly then picked up with Raven theory YoH then underwhelming until Waking Moments then it had a decently entertaining stretch up to The Killing Game before going back to the gutter the rest of the season
I liked the Hirogen. I liked the idea that an alien race might see other species as game and prey in much the same way hunters see deer and other animals these days. I also loved the Hirogen design from their make up to their suits. Unlike Jammer, I didn’t mind the Hirogen plot it provided some nice action and much like Message In a Bottle showed the writers being a bit more ambitious by juggling several different ideas and integrating them—the alien network, making contact with the Alpha Quadrant, introducing the Hirogen, letters from home.
I don’t think just the letters from home could have sustained my interest for an entire hour. It was already dragging with Paris’ moodiness and Harry’s whining about his letter And other than Mark the crews’ families are faceless nobodies so no real emotional resonance. I think Jeri Taylor’s script hit what it needed to regarding the crew reaction to letters from home
I also liked how the episode handled eliminating the ability of routine communication with the Alpha Quadrant by having the intensifying of the black hole caused the entire network to collapse.
The time on the Hirogen ship offered further look into this new species. And I continued to enjoy the writers using Seven's Borg knowledge to princess vide interesting factoids like with having encountered a gutted species before but not having interest who did it or why
Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 10:21pm (UTC -5)
I generally liked this episode, but as I'm watching them with a different eye than I did during first run, some things stood out to me:
I nodded in agreement with @William B when he mentioned thinking of fast forwarding during the Hirogen scenes. They were almost painful to watch.
Tuvok launched a buoy as they were captured, and we see it fire off. Then, I'm expecting Voyager to mention it, but instead we get Kim stating the shuttle is empty. Did the writers want to let us know they really didn't lose another one, and forgot about the buoy? I'm picturing it hurtling through space, in the wrong direction...
I am in agreement with @Stingray-j about the singularities. We'd known Romulans used them for years in their engines, so it wouldn't be a stretch to think someone might want to use one in a relay station that was supposed to last a really, really long time.
Eh, Neelix didn't bother me that much. He acts as he is written. And with Tuvok, I thought he was just reminding him that hey, you can let that work wait a while. Read your letter. He knew Tuvok would probably wait, even though he really wanted to see it, and at the end of the scene, he did stop and look.
Things are going all sideways, the ship might be destroyed, and Torres is in... astrometrics. I was rather surprised to see she was still working on the letters when her place was in the engine room. My thought was, tell the computer to keep working on them, and go do your job.
They keep saying 60,000 light years. I thought they started at around 70k light years, Kes sent them 10k and they found a few other shortcuts here and there, as well as simply flying in that general direction. Shouldn't it be closer to 50k? Maybe 45k? 60k would imply they'd been standing still the whole time, before and after the Kes fling.
I really thought Chakotay was off a bit when talking with Janeway, though I didn't really blame the actor. Yes, he had to deliver the lines, but they made him sound like Counselor Troi. "How do you feel about that?". A Chakotay response would have been more along the lines of "I am so sorry, and feel your pain. Would you like to vision-quest?" or something. He isn't a counselor, don't give him counselor lines...
I didn't need to hear Kim talk about a letter after the first time. I think it would have been better if he'd just have a hopeful look, then a dashed one when none arrived. It just seemed to keep going. Also, shouldn't Kim have been promoted by now? At least to Lieutenant-junior grade? Hmm...*Janeway to Chakotay: "I'd love to promote Harry, but he can never seem to get a lock...". *
I did think it was neat to see the array fall in on itself when the shielding stopped working. That's how Romulan ships should die when they are defeated, not in a flash like the rest.
Have a Great Day... RT
Wed, Dec 6, 2017, 4:13pm (UTC -5)
Whatever. A blah episode.
Thu, Feb 8, 2018, 5:02pm (UTC -5)
Janeway also just seemed a bit too reckless-risky and the solution of how to get out of the confrontation (and its damage then being ignored) particularly artificial.
Thu, Feb 8, 2018, 5:04pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:11pm (UTC -5)
1. I disagree with other commenters on Tuvok's attempt at diplomacy. It was very obvious from everything the Hirogen had said that, if anything, what Tuvok and Seven said would make things worse, not better. A far more reasonable line to try would have been something like "We are two critical members of that ship's crew. The hunt would be much better if you returned us to it, unlike the pitiful capture of the shuttlecraft. Or are you afraid to make the hunt interesting?"
2. I was surprised, and impressed, by a nice, small character touch between Torres and Kim .. after she had been needling him about Seven, the moment she realized she had completely misunderstood his presence, and that she had been unintentionally boorish, was great. Good job, Dawson.
Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:49pm (UTC -5)
Mulgrew did a nice job dealing with the Dear John letter, and the scene between her and Chakotay at the end was pleasingly subtle.
Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 4:38pm (UTC -5)
The Hirogen never seemed cartoonish to me-they seemed scary and the biggest villains created specifically for Voyager (*unlike the Borg). I remember when this came out and how scary it was with these HUGE aliens and all the sharp knives!
My only real concern with this episode is the entire use of the array. Yes, I realise the crew longs for news from home, but let's take this situation: You are somehow marooned in a foreign country and have no modern transportation, so you will have to walk to the ocean and take a rowboat back to your continent (it's a flimsy scenario, but it is the only way you can be years from home on earth). Would you essentially trespass on hostile people's land to use their telephone to call your family and friends? I mean, yes, the letters are nice, but Janeway is essentially risking everyone's lives for them! That seems an unbalanced decision!
Anyway, those are my thoughts-I'll read the other comments now
Sun, May 5, 2019, 8:41pm (UTC -5)
Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 9:38am (UTC -5)
Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 4:26pm (UTC -5)
And Janeway is right, coffee is the finest organic suspension ever devised. Coffee. Black.
Tue, Nov 12, 2019, 11:22pm (UTC -5)
I take Harry to represent the ideal Starfleet officer of the line: professional, competent, respectfully embedded in the chain of command, unfailingly pleasant to all during the faithful discharge of his duty, neither slacker nor rank-climbing ambitious, steady, dependable, honest forthright steadfast and brave...etc.
In other words, a boy scout. And what’s wrong with that? A vast semi-military operation needs a whole lot more people like that than they need forceful, erratic, life-gambling, ego-ridden, brilliant but unstable, messianic captains and rogue commanders.
So he hasn’t been promoted. So what? There aren’t enough places in the command structure for everyone to move up. On Voyager, 60 light years from home, no one is going to get transferred. Besides, by this point in the voyage, the crew works together more as family than hierarchy, so rank has become less significant.
Harry seems eminently believable - and likable - to me in this context. In a way, his above-average steadiness anchors the rest of the flamboyant, conflicted and troubled crew. He’s a realistic emotional center point. And I don’t recall Wang ever representing the character with less than the full range of acting chops required (obviously within the limits and opportunities of the script he’s given).
I also think the writers have a pretty good handle on his character. Not every character has to shoot off sparks. Someone has to be the straight man. (No, don’t go there, snarkers. It’s “irrelevant”. Thank you, Seven.) And now that I’ve mentioned her, I think it’s perfect that Harry is fascinated, attracted to and intimidated by the Borgesse - isn’t that how most normal non-godlike human men would react?
And yes, in this episode, Harry’s boyish yearning for a letter from home was an oft-repeated note, because he was to represent earnest, normal, uncomplicated anticipation - while we knew many other crew members’ letters were likely to be ambivalent and bittersweet, and their reactions more complex. AND I think the writers were weaving an ambiguous web for us: the longer we waited for Harry’s letter, the more I expected the news to be tragic for him. Can’t believe no one else has mentioned that. I was relieved at the end when he did NOT get bad news.
I also think the Neelix-bashers are out of line here. We sensed (I think accurately) that by the end of Mortal Coil, a Neelix (who turned out to be deeper and more complex than we assumed) had barely come back from his eminently believable and affecting crisis of faith. Hyper-vigilant character-continuity nazis wanted to see evidence in future episodes that Neelix was still feeling the effects.
Well, did we want him to be fragile, or break down, or slip back into paralysis and depression? At the end of Mortal Coil, he was called back to life by the thin thread of human need for his services - his care, compassion, personal ministry (in the generic, not the ecclesiastical, sense). And I think, given his nature as we’ve learned it, that was a reasonable and powerful incentive for his renewed grasp on life. (In fact, given loss of faith in gods who are not there, in a vast meaningless universe which could not care less about sentient life, I believe our service to each other is indeed one of very few profound and sufficient ways in which we make our own meaning.)
Given that, I think it’s likely and appropriate that lonely, lost Neelix - who has been adopted by and adopted a family of creatures carrying him ever further from the home which was ripped from him, and the family and loved ones who are no longer there - would, after his Hamlet crisis, redouble his efforts in service to those fellow-sentients. He might even be a little over-bright in compensation for the darkness which may still crowd his consciousness. He might try too hard - and the crew, recognizing that, might be more tolerant than usual because they understand he might still be a bit brittle.
So in the context of his recent crisis, his presentation here seems poignant and textured to me - because we can imagine how hard he’s working for it, and how much this lifeline of connection to this crew means to him.
Cut him (and Ethan Phillips) some slack. I think it’s good work.
Janeway and Chatokay. PERfect. Both of them. Brilliant, subtle, powerful acting on Mulgrew’s part as she absorbs the bad news she was surely half-expecting. Both scenes were powerful. And I think both the script and Beltran nailed Chaoktay’s reaction.
Remember there’s still a chain of command. Remember Chakotay has learned enormous respect for Kathryn, both as captain and as a woman. Remember they were on the verge of becoming, effectively, man and wife when they were stranded together on a planet - that Chakotay accepted their situation before Janeway, is clearly attracted to (but not, I think, head over heels about) her, and patiently gave her space and time to begin to accept the situation and him in the same way. And I can’t be the only one to have read, at the end of that episode, a bittersweet note in both characters’ reaction to being rescued. I think both were on the verge of finding satisfaction, even happiness, in building a life together on the planet. It was somewhat emotionally wrenching for both to go back to business as usual on Voyage, decades from home.
And since that rescue, both have been more attentive and attuned to each other, more personal and solicitous - yet still within the bounds of appropriate command staff decorum. I can read into that both that Janeway reined in her growing affection for Chakotay, and Chakotay backed off (as the principled, perceptive gentleman he is) in deference to Janeway’s engagement to the distant Mark, to whom Janeway’s emotional commitment would have revived along with hopes of going home.
In other words, he’s respectful and classy enough not to crowd her. So when he learns her fiancé has moved on, of course he proceeds both honestly and tentatively. At the same time he recognizes this loss on her part might free her emotionally for the relationship he’s clearly ready for, he is also enough of a friend - and, again, principled enough - not to assume, push, rush, or take advantage. And since both are very matter-of-fact people, for whom seeing things clearly and gathering evidence is habitual before leaping ahead, before he leaps, he first wants to know how she’s taking the news.
In a way he’s being a counselor, because that may be what she needs, and he’s intuitive and empathetic enough to want to offer a friend’s shoulder. He wants to “be there for her,” in any capacity she needs. Hs also wants to know where he stands. “How do you feel about that” is a PERfect line to open the dialogue (significantly, after Janeway has already opened up to him matter-of-factly, with some bravely open misting-up during the telling demonstrating her trust and vulnerability).
She then jumps ahead to where he is: “go ahead and say it, I got a Dear John,” and the dialog proceeds into territory showing they’re both very much on the same page. Both recognize a relationship might blossom again, and that given the situation there’s plenty of time.
Was he supposed to just jump her bones? Was she supposed to collapse into his arms? That would have been ridiculous, and untrue to both characters and four years’ worth of relationship-building.
I don’t think either is infatuated with the other, that either sees the other as a love-of-a-lifetime, that they’re fated to be, that the universe has brought them together - nor are they driven by any combination of hormones and puerile fantasy. I think both recognize they’re compatible, they respect and care for each other - they’re important to each other, maybe each others’ best friend - but they’re not obsessed or mad about each other. They could commit to each other in a solid, loving, mature relationship. But neither of them is going to perish of a broken heart if it doesn’t happen
They have time. The dialog and acting captured that perfectly, enhancing two already wonderfully realized characters.
Geez, the critics here! Please submit your screenplays and screen tests for our consideration.
Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 2:54pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 6:39pm (UTC -5)
I don't have the time or energy to go through all characters, but let's just look at Kim for a moment. And for the record, I'm not a nitpicky, hate everything type of person. I did think the Seven/Kim "romantic" subplot was a pretty good idea. I don't mind that he is the straight man, as it were. But there are still severe problems with his character.
Star Trek has a long-standing tradition of having two technobabble characters. The "royal smart one" (as SFDebris puts it) is in charge of providing exposition on the weird stuff they encounter and coming up with the solution to it (Spock, Data, Dax), while the engineer is in charge of saying what's wrong with the ship and how to fix it (Scotty, LaForge, O'Brien). Torres is obviously the engineer here. But that makes Kim, the other technobabble character, the Royal Smart One. Except Spock is a superintelligent Vulcan, Data is a superintelligent android, and Dax has a dozen lifetimes of experience. Kim is fresh out of college. There's nothing wrong with being fresh out of college, but you put those people in entry-level jobs, not Chief Science Officer. Chekov had a vague bridge job that made sense as entry-level. Wesley just had to punch coordinates into SpaceGoogle Maps, which works as entry-level. Nog's role was also nebulous, so still entry-level. But Kim is given the job of Ops (nebulous, but we know that superintelligent android Data had the job before) and is seen as a Senior Staff, despite being entry-level.
This gives his character a sense of unbelievability. Sure, presumably the real ops officer died in Caretaker and Kim had to fill in, but we never got a sense of his character within that. He never felt like a n00b in his job, even though he really is. Even worse, because he is not believable as a Royal Smart One, he didn't really get that job either. If anything, Janeway (who had a background in science, and thus is believable as Royal Smart One) had that role in the first half of the show. And obviously Seven (with Borg experiences, believable as Royal Smart One) got the job after that.
Which means, well, what's the point of Kim? It's one thing to say he's the straight man, but this isn't a buddy show or a comedy. It's very much a procedural show similar to cop shows or whatever (obviously more variety though). And in procedural shows, each person has a specific role to perform. But now there's three technobabble characters, and Kim's the least believable, least valuable of the bunch. What, exactly, does he do here? He never grabbed the niche of Royal Smart One because he's not believable at it, and he never grabbed the niche of being the kid (at least in the "work" part of the show, he obviously grabbed it in the "character" part of the show) since he was given such a prestigious position. It made his character superfluous. That's why many people think he should have been the one to go during Scorpion. Seven is believable both as the Royal Smart One and as the kid, and you also would still have Kes as the kid as well. It would have made for smoother storytelling overall rather than trying to justify Kim's presence.
Or, in summary, Kim's procedural role (Royal Smart One) is at fundamental odds with his character role (the newbie), which makes him an unrealistic character. I mean, sure, there was Wesley, but they had to shill him up as a Mozart-esque genius just to get us to barely tolerate him. Kim doesn't even have that.
Next, about him being the straight man compared to the weird character traits. Yes, that's fine. You can have a character like that. But the problem is, that's not his only character trait. The other one was being the kid as I alluded to previously. And the problem was the writers were inconsistent with how well they had him grow out of being the kid. Because let's face it, being the kid is MEANT to be a transitory character trait over time. Personally, I think they (and Wang) did do a better job on this than a lot of people think, but it still was inconsistent.
In NCIS, the character of McGee was brought on to the show as a second straight man (other than being nerdy, he was basically competent, serious, decent, and "normal") in the 2nd season. He also acted as the newbie. So y'know, Kim. Except the newbieness was shrinking dramatically by Season 4 and essentially gone by Season 6. As he gained experience, he stopped being a newbie! He became more confident, more self assured, less gullible. Again, Kim did grow a little bit, but there were many times where he would snap back and be just the kid again. He never truly grew.
Also, even if Kim is the straight man, it doesn't mean the straight man can't be interesting. You described him as being the boy scout. But you know who fits that role even better? Jean-Luc Picard. He is essentially the Roddenberry Ideal made flesh. He is the ultimate straight man. And he was a billion times more interesting than Kim ever was. Sure, the odds were stacked in his favor by being captain rather than a utility man, but still... Picard made TNG what it was. Patrick Stewart made Picard who he was. Maybe it's not fair to compare Wang to Stewart, but the reality is that Kim faded into the background while Picard burst into the foreground (and considering when TNG started they were hyping up Riker as the big deal, the ascendance of Picard in TNG was not a foregone conclusion).
And regarding the promotion bit, well, I agree that it SHOULDN'T matter on a ship that has no real opportunities for advancement. The problem is that the show did seem to think it mattered. Tuvok got promoted. Paris got demoted and repromoted. And yet Kim was the perpetual ensign, DESPITE running a critical department. It made no sense.
OK, I know I said I wasn't doing everyone, but Chakotay's reaction was perfect? So, 10 minutes after finding out that his friends and colleagues all died a brutal death, he... inquires as to the availability of Janeway's pants? That's perfect??? No grief at all?
Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 8:44pm (UTC -5)
If other Star Trek series prior to VOY had Everyman officers, I don’t recall them. (MAYbe O’Brien, but he’s clearly presented more as gifted blue-collar than as college-trained.) So maybe Kim’s role is an innovation for Voyager, another perspective from which to see the ensemble - rather than a failed something-else.
I guess I’m not interested in the structural genre schematic of the show, just whether or not a character works. For me, Kim works.
You know who didn’t work for me? Yar, on TNG. And Seska on VOY. Whatever marks they were intended to hit, they missed.
I think any comparison between Kim and Picard as Boy Scouts is specious. They’re totally different characters. For one, we meet Picard when he is much older, wiser, and drippIng the kind of gravitas that immediately justifies his command, and inspires confidence - whereas Harry, as you say, is all wide eyes and unproven youth. Maybe Harry would in some imaginable future grow into a commander of Picard stature - but I don’t think so. I could see Harry maturing into Riker.
All three can be accused of being Boy Scouts - but the difference is that Picard has the psychological and philosophical depth, rigor, and will to examine, test, and wrestle with the deep moral ambiguities out of which scout ethics are distilled, and deeply feels the shadows. He’s capable of MAKING moral/ethical rules when circumstances demand.
Kim - and, I think, Riker - are honorable upright officers who intend to do their duty. But neither is the deep thinker, the ancient soul that Picard is. They follow the rules Moses brings down from the mountaintop; they don’t ascend it to face - and wrestle with - God. (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)
I take your point about the other promotions and demotions, and Harry’s being overlooked. I hadn’t thought of that. Maybe he should have been pipped up. But maybe he fulfilled his duties so ideally that there was just no point.
As for his competence, I don’t recall his being a notable screwup. (Other than occasionally failing to get a lock, or having to report systems down - but we all recognize that critical systems on Starfleet fail in response to contrived plot necessity.) Has there been an occasion when Harry screwed it up?
Chakotay very clearly and specifically does NOT enquire into Katy’s sexual availability. That was my point, made in his defense to others who thought he was too analytical and counseloresque. Ish. Instead he behaves cautiously, respectfully, honorably.
As for the emotional calculus of a day when, after 3 years, a crew first hears the news from home, and some have had to absorb truly devastating impacts...for one thing, we don’t know that it had been “only 10 minutes” in ship time since Chakotay learned about the Maquis. I guess the writers assume we viewers can fill in some of the blanks.
But Chakotay’s response to that news was well and believably covered “hours earlier” (I assume), and we got a double down when he shared it (again believably) with Torres. It was clear during that tranasaction that he felt it necessary to take it in stride “as an officer” (who, with responsibilities to hold an emotionally fraught crew together, may not have time, luxury, or inclination to freak out) - and he encouraged Torres to get an officorial grip as well.
Who can balance relative tragedies, or judge how others are pulled by emotional gravity? Tom’s personal trauma was that he claimed not to want to hear from Pop, then found himself disappointed when there WAS a letter, but it was fragmentary. Even by comparison to Harry’s letterlessness, that seems trivial. But even Torres, who seemed more affected by the Maquis news than Chakotay, had a bit of leftover compassion to sympathize with him - before he (Tom) pivoted to her objectively greater loss and grief.
We have no information at all how (or whether) Janeway had reacted to and absorbed the Maquis news. For all we know, she and Chakotay had found time to cry it out - or, more realistically, for her to genuinely sympathize with and console him.
Or are you saying that Chakotay’s loss was so much greater than Janeway’s that he - or the story - should have ignored hers? “Oh, your fiancé moved on? That’s nothing to what happened to me!” I fail to see how that would have worked on any level.
In any case, we as the audience, along with the crew, had to receive and process the news from home, and consider how it might affect everyone. The script had to present all that business, and move the story along (again, counting on us to fill in some blanks). What Janeway and Chakotay had to say to each other, how their relationship might be changed, was part of that business. The script and the actors did a great job of bringing it out, I thought realistically.
I’m glad Chakotay had enough compassion left over from his own grief to acknowledge the captain’s personal loss - without in any way exploiting it.
Wed, May 13, 2020, 7:57am (UTC -5)
Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 2:46am (UTC -5)
Sun, Aug 30, 2020, 9:20am (UTC -5)
Fri, Jan 29, 2021, 10:42am (UTC -5)
Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 8:28pm (UTC -5)
Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 6:43am (UTC -5)
Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 4:09pm (UTC -5)
Jammer is right that this episode's "Hirogen subplot" is a bit weak - very cartoonish - but it's also mercifully brief. Most of this episode is thus excellent, and filled with powerful moments, like the scene in which Janeway receives her letter, speaks to Chakotay about her break-up, a touching scene in which Tuvok reads his wife's letter, another in which Chakotay is overcome with grief in the engine room, three good scenes with Torres, some good Seven scenes (she seems genuinely hurt that Janeway might not trust her), and some very sympathetic scenes with Kim.
So IMO this is a very strong episode and a respectable follow-up to the masterful "Eye of the Needle".
Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 6:51pm (UTC -5)
"I love Jeri Taylor's take on "Voyager". She's always fleshing Janeway out in psychologically interesting ways, she writes Chakotay well, she seemed to be slowly pushing Chakotay and Janeway toward a romance (IMO the show should have committed to this)"
I guess maybe you know this, Mulgrew claims she forbad them having a Janeway/Chakotay romance. I don't really know how hard a line she drew behind closed doors, but the way she tells it she would have hit the ceiling if they tried it. It actually reminds me of Nana Visitor's ban on a Kira/Dukat romance, although for completely different reasons.
Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:01pm (UTC -5)
As for Janeway and Chakotay, I get Mulgrew's point, but I think it would have been okay - even preferable - for them to have subtly been FWB behind the scenes. Like, allude to it, but don't ever show it. A captain's gotta eat, y'know, and she can't live on photons forever. It would have had the merit of being relatable, instead of the insufferable, sudden, huge middle finger they gave to their queer audience with Chakotay and Seven. Gross. The only way that could have been worse would have been if they'd paired Seven with Doctor Holographic Incel.
Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 9:57pm (UTC -5)
"As for Janeway and Chakotay, I get Mulgrew's point, but I think it would have been okay - even preferable - for them to have subtly been FWB behind the scenes. Like, allude to it, but don't ever show it. A captain's gotta eat, y'know, and she can't live on photons forever."
Unlike in the case on DS9, this wasn't a question of being true to the characterization. Mulgrew believed strongly that as the first female captain the show had a duty to show her as professionally standing on her own two feet without being reduced to being a love interest. It was a position she took on behalf of women, not of her character.
"It would have had the merit of being relatable, instead of the insufferable, sudden, huge middle finger they gave to their queer audience with Chakotay and Seven."
Amusingly I'm not even sure which of these two you think the queer audience was expecting to be paired off in a queer relationship...
Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 10:35pm (UTC -5)
I'm not advocating Janeway as a love interest, something, the show did several times - just not with Chakotay. Anyway, I find the idea of Janeway being "reduced" because she satisfied the need for intimacy itself reductive, but I don't think that's what Mulgrew feared. An on-camera relationship with any (male) crew member near her rank certainly would have affected how she was perceived, and of course any relationship with a crew member too much her junior to be perceived as undermining her command would have been wildly inappropriate. That's why I suggested subtle allusions. Which is irrelevant, since they didn't do it.
Seven of Nine has always been queer-coded as fuck. There's a reason Star Trek Picard made it official, and a reason why it was widely regarded as a deliberate slap in the face to shove her and Chakotay together unceremoniously. To my knowledge, there has never been official word from any writer, producer, or director of Voyager that they inserted deliberate queer-coding into the character's interactions, but many queer fans saw a great deal familiar in Seven's struggles.
However intentional or unintentional, the creative team behind Voyager riddled Seven with parallels, and created enough tension to suggest romance; more so than some fully canon pairings. There was certainly gallons more tension and chemistry between her and Janeway than there was between her and Chakotay before they were paired up (which is saying very little, and that's kind of the point).
Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 11:01pm (UTC -5)
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 12:05am (UTC -5)
"Unlike in the case on DS9, this wasn't a question of being true to the characterization. Mulgrew believed strongly that as the first female captain the show had a duty to show her as professionally standing on her own two feet without being reduced to being a love interest. It was a position she took on behalf of women, not of her character. "
That's disappointing. "Professionalism" is a male invention and not one of their better ones, so proving that women can remain stoic and suppress sex-drives for no particular good reason, and reinforcing desire and sex and humanity as shameful things to have, doesn't seem to be much of an advocacy on behalf of the female gender to me. Maybe in the 19th century.
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 1:18am (UTC -5)
I know that nobody else likes it but I have a weak spot for the episode where Janeway finds/creates this dream guy on the holodeck. I really liked their scenes together. Delete the wife! :D
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 1:40am (UTC -5)
So for Janeway to be defined *by her profession* is essentially a classic feminist ideal, that vocations other than motherhood or being someone else's girlfriend can be the main drive of her life as it's presented to us. In this case, as a captain, and maybe as a scientist. I don't think it intends to say or is saying that women shouldn't have relationships, or that captain's shouldn't. It's saying that Janeway doesn't need to.
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 7:17am (UTC -5)
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 11:50am (UTC -5)
Seven struggles to establish and define her identity while the crew struggles to accept her, and many don't. Frequently, she must defend her worldview in the face of Federation norms, and the pressure of the crew to conform to their worldview/way of life, and the contrast is played up often, painting Seven an outsider. Most queer people understand these experiences intimately.
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 12:24pm (UTC -5)
But those are precisely the sorts of things that anyone of any "outsider" community could identify with, and also things many individuals outside of some particular community can identify with. I still don't see why you would suggest this is specifially queer-coding. Remember your assertion is that people of the queer community were "slapped in the face" when a queer-coded character ended up being straight. That is a much stronger assertion than merely saying queer folk were *among those* who could identify with not fitting in to the majority norms. I mean let's face it, in the 90's this probably applied to the majority of Trek fans as a whole.
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 1:34pm (UTC -5)
LOL Yeah, after two massively popular TV shows, and Patrick Stewart on the cover of sexiest men magazines, proclaiming "bald is beautiful," and Whoopi Goldberg herself clawing her way onto the Enterprise, and Trek films massing hundreds of millions at the box office, and Camille Paglia writing a paean to Data in TV Fucking Guide, the poor trekkies had never been more ostracized.
Anyway. I already said in another post there was no direct evidence I was aware of that any writer, director, or producer claimed to be coding Seven as queer. Not that they would have in the 1990s; there is a long history of queer coding, hiding less accepted sexuality in plain sight (thus the term "coding"). So I can't say they didn't, either. It's a matter of perception, and whether or not they *intentionally* queer-coded Seven, they were well aware she was massively popular in the LGBTQ+ community. And their response was to shove her into a ham-fisted, last-minute heteronormative relationship.
That's the slap in the face. They knew what they were doing. Whether or not they did it *solely* to spit on the LGBTQ+ community is irrelevant to the insult; they knew damn well what it would look like, and they did it, anyway. That's why practically everyone - Jeri Ryan included - celebrated ST Picard's correction, entering into canon than Seven was and is bisexual.
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 2:21pm (UTC -5)
I'm not sure how old you are, but yeah, in the 90's being a Trek (or even sci-fi) fan was absolutely not mainstream. Even fantasy only sort of got mainstream with Harry Potter and the LotR films. If you watched Trek and lot and/or went to cons, you were a nerd, plain and simple, with all the baggage that implies. It might not mean 'oppressed community' (although by some standards it probably fits to say it was) but it does mean outsider community. It was popular as far as TV shows went, but the numbers don't say it all.
"nyway. I already said in another post there was no direct evidence I was aware of that any writer, director, or producer claimed to be coding Seven as queer. Not that they would have in the 1990s; there is a long history of queer coding, hiding less accepted sexuality in plain sight (thus the term "coding")."
Yeah, but all you've said specifically so far is that Seven was a social outsider trying to cope with pushback from a majority culture. I don't see how you get from that to your implicit premise that she was specifically *sexually* queer-coded. Where do you get that from, whether intentional or otherwise? Can you name a single instance in all of VOY where Seven has discernible woman-woman, or at least non-heteronormative inclinations? I could cite back to Unimatrix Zero as evidence that she does have interest in men, but I can't personally think of any conflicting signals in the other direction. I would be more than happy to consider 'under the radar' signalling by the actress, writers, or even the behavior of the other crewmembers, but I would suggest that if the answer does not lie in any of these areas then I don't see how it could really be anywhere.
'It's a matter of perception, and whether or not they *intentionally* queer-coded Seven, they were well aware she was massively popular in the LGBTQ+ community."
But let's say she was also popular in the BDSM community because of her catsuit; does that mean they have a public responsibility to make her become a dominatrix? Why does having fans of a particular inclination entitle them to story changes that suit only their fancy and which don't fit the intention of the showrunners? Are you advocating production-by-public-committee, which many have accused nu-Trek of doing?
"And their response was to shove her into a ham-fisted, last-minute heteronormative relationship.
That's the slap in the face."
Well I think you will find a lot of agreement that it was ham-fisted. I would personally view it more as an insult to world-building and writing than to anything else. I could think of any number of directions Seven could have gone, and I suppose one could argue not doing so is an 'insult' to any of those. But of course one cannot actually do them all. So it sort of sounds like no matter what they did they were slapping someone in the face? What about all the straight guys who liked Seven? Would you agree that making her queer in the end would have been slapping them in the face?
'That's why practically everyone - Jeri Ryan included - celebrated ST Picard's correction, entering into canon than Seven was and is bisexual."
ST: Picard had a different agenda than VOY. I won't judge it or say which is better, but I don't think it's reasonable to argue that a series made 25 years later is a 'correction' to a classic Trek series. It's just a new series saying a new thing. Maybe Jeri Ryan liked the new message, but I don't think one can draw from that an inference about her stance on Seven being heterosexual in VOY. That being said, I don't watch too many VOY cast interviews, so maybe you saw some comments from her that I didn't.
Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 9:06pm (UTC -5)
I’m old enough to have been there when it wasn’t mainstream, and old enough to have been there when it was. And that was before Voyager even aired. Trek was mainstream. Gen Con had already exploded worldwide. The mainstreaming of fandom was in full swing. Which is irrelevant, because trekkies are fans of a show, and LGBTQ+ people are a historically oppressed group who were and *are still* murdered for existing.
As for queer-coding, you’re looking for something you’re not going to see, for the very reason coding exists. Conservative studios wouldn’t allow Seven to give a woman a significant look, so anyone who wanted to nod in the direction of the LGBTQ+ community drew a *wide* circle around it, and then kept their mouths shut. They had to, or else. That was the rule - and for most of TV history, that’s a *literal* rule. If a show (or movie, going back far enough) wanted to be inclusive, they had to insert very, very subtle subtext, and let the LGBTQ+ community pick up on it on their own. This subtle back-and-forth between Hollywood and the community has a long history, as a number of documentaries will explain to you better than I can in a paragraph or two.
In the meantime, the scenes you’re looking for aren’t there, because nobody was allowed to make them, and not for lack of trying. Look it up. LGBTQ+ representation in Trek was shot down repeatedly, and was therefore forced into allegory and coding. They drew this very wide circle, and the LGBTQ+ community said, “Ah. I see you, Trek writers.” Nobody - for the sake of their job - was going to aim directly at the the community, but they were going to leave it vague enough - hint enough - to let the community latch on. That is the kind of thin, unsatisfying representation the community has lived with for most of media history.
Also, “queer” doesn’t equal “sex.” This thing is already going to be long enough, so you’ll just have to look up for yourself all the queer-coding in Seven’s struggles with her body, with attraction, with the concept of gender, with romance, and how all that related to the environment on the ship.
And no, let’s *not* say she was also popular in the BDSM community, because they never made Jeri Ryan throw rope and latex in the garbage and say, “Ha ha! Just kidding!” And let’s not assume the intentions of the showrunners, especially when the showrunners have stated they tried to make Voyager more representative. And straight guys? Are you shitting me? Straight guys were represented by, oh, say, every single male in the entire series, and every single female except *maybe* Seven, which is to say nothing of Seven’s catsuit and the long history of straight male “acceptance” of “lipstick lesbianism.” They could afford to lose one. Straight guys. LOL The fuck with that?
And the correction to which I referred wasn’t in the character’s depiction throughout 99% of the show. I’m talking about the last-minute swerve that was specifically insulting to the LGBTQ+ community. They’re correcting the insult. To the community. Specifically. Any BDSM fan could still assume she and Chakotay were engaging in any kink they wanted. Trekkies were unaffected. Straight guys were unaffected. People of color were unaffected. Religious minorities were unaffected. Foot fetishists were unaffected. Tarantula owners were unaffected. You seeing the pattern, here?
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:53am (UTC -5)
I guess I'm somewhat with Peter on this one. To me Seven of Nine was, almost with surgical precision, inserted to be the ultimate nerd dream woman. Incredibly good looking, very smart but also socially awkward and insecure. In the end you have to look for a source from the writing team maybe, to prove that this was specifically aimed at the LGBTQ community. DS9 had the lesbian relationship three years before this in rejoined. Showing Seven as bi would not have been impossible.
Also might I suggest to tune down the profanity? I don't think that it helps the point you are trying to make. Just a suggestion of course. :)
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:58am (UTC -5)
Clearly, it doesn't help the point I'm making, since I failed to convey it to you.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:31am (UTC -5)
I do see what you're trying to say, but I gotta admit it sounds a lot like you're saying that a lack of any evidence is equivalent to definitive evidence, to the point that the writers not only had to have known it, but were spitting in the face of the LGTB community by choosing a regular sexuality for Seven. I honestly think you're conflating identifying with something about a character, to that character actually being the same as you. Yes, Seven had a sort of non-sexual identity for several seasons, although I wouldn't call it androgynous. And yes, she didn't have the ability (or perhaps desire) to explore her sexuality and gender identity in normal human terms. But I just don't see why it needs to be understood *canonically* as being a gender identity issue, when the literal story fits much better: that she was a recovering trauma victim, having been terrorized and dehumanized by a technological terror.
There are many facets to a person (and to a good character), and surely it's possible to feel kinship with some aspect of that character for many reasons. I just don't think it's reasonable to go from that to saying there was some kind of obligation to pursue some fragmented aspect of the character and to blow it up into an entire arc that meets the life experience of a small subset of the TV viewing population. Maybe it would have been neat if they did that, but it feels to me like hyperbole to say they were insulting anyone by not doing so. Maybe a missed opportunity at best, like what some people say about Garak.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:38am (UTC -5)
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:56am (UTC -5)
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 9:06am (UTC -5)
I think it really depends on whether or not the writers intended Seven to be queer-coded. If they didn't, then Top Hat is correct. If they did, then Randall is correct. Randall clearly believes that they did intend it.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 9:45am (UTC -5)
This is a good position to take, Pamellllaaa. However, the showrunners never elaborated on it the past, and they certainly aren't going to come out against it now.
There's a really interesting article I found that elaborates on the point Randall is making. You can make of it what you will:
Personally, I think any sort of inclusion in Star Trek is a *good thing*, but I sympathize with the sentiment against changing a character's sexuality after the fact. The latter was famously done with Sulu even though George Takei was against it.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 10:25am (UTC -5)
I agree that no one will ever be able to prove what the intention was in the past with the information that is currently available. All people can do is infer from what was said and make their own conclusions. The article certainly does elaborate on Randall's point. Good find.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 10:36am (UTC -5)
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 11:49am (UTC -5)
Oh my goodness. Obviously, I've made a botch of it, so I'll take a step back and try again. There's two different kinds of coding: intentional and unintentional. I've said repeatedly there's no definitive proof (that I know of) they *specifically intended* Seven of Nine to *be* queer. What they *did* do was make a lot of noise behind the scenes that they *wanted* to make Voyager more gay, but weren't allowed. Wink, wink.
This is the problem with representation when there is no representation, when representation is forbidden. In this case, either someone was slipping it under the door, or there are so many oddly specific parallels they lucked into it. That's the gray area LGBTQ+ people have lived in for most of motion picture history, so they can't be blamed for reading between the lines, since, again, that's how coding works. So, again, intentional or not, Seven of Nine is in fact queer-coded as fuck. That's one thing.
The other - related but separate - thing is the ham-fisted relationship they threw her into with Chakotay at the last minute. Whatever their intentions with Seven for the past few seasons, they were well aware of Seven's importance to a part of their fanbase, and how that fanbase would feel if they did what they did. And they did it, anyway. *That* was the slap in the face.
Again: They knew in advance it would upset that part of their fanbase, so yes, it was deliberate, intentional, and specific. Now, you can say they *deserved* the slap in the face for getting their hopes up or whatever, but that doesn't erase or make untrue anything I just said. It just makes you an asshole.
To be clear, I'm not saying it was targeted. I can't say for certain any particular person said, mustache twirling, "Let's do this thing for the sole reason it would upset the LGBTQ+ community." I'm also not ruling it out. It doesn't beggar belief that some homophobic industry suit decided "no character on my show will be one of teh gayz, so put her in a heterosexual relationship, stat, and I don't care of it makes any sense." It's happened before. Many times. But I'm not saying that did happen. What I'm saying is, the LGBTQ+ community would be upset if they did it, they knew that, and they did it, anyway.
Welp, here's hoping the total lack of anything close to the words "obligated" and "entitled" in my post sinks in, this time. Fingers crossed.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:40pm (UTC -5)
Are you sure that is what queer coding means? Queer coding, as far as I understand it, means creating a character that shows certain homosexual stereotypical behaviors that the main audience can recognize without explicitly being gay. Disney villains are the most famous example. Michael Bay also uses queer coding quite frequently, especially effeminate men. I don't think that queer coding applies to Seven of Nine. What would queer coding for bisexuals even look like? Like homosexual queer coding? I don't see her as being coded as lesbian.
You argument that they (the production) knew that Seven was seen as gay representation by the community and still gave her a last minute heterosexual relation. Being either ignorant or willfully insulting. That is an argument I can understand. Especially considering that some people (writers, producers) wanted to include somebody. So they must have had at least some knowledge about how this part of the audience felt.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:48pm (UTC -5)
Yes, that was my take-away as well. It's good to understand what sorts of pressures motivated the writers of the time at least.
"The other - related but separate - thing is the ham-fisted relationship they threw her into with Chakotay at the last minute. Whatever their intentions with Seven for the past few seasons, they were well aware of Seven's importance to a part of their fanbase, and how that fanbase would feel if they did what they did. And they did it, anyway. *That* was the slap in the face."
I believe the point that Peter was making was that shipping Seven-Chakotay was a haphazard decision (rather than a planned one) by the showrunners and that was effectively a slap in the face to *everyone watching the show*, rather than the LGBTQ community specifically. That said, I agree with your first point. Generally, Seven's romantic relationships were underdeveloped in the series proper and thus her sexual interests can be left to interpretation. Similarly, I could get on board if they brought back say, Wesley Crusher, with a major new development character-wise because TNG left a large amount of wiggle room in that regard.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:05pm (UTC -5)
"In this case, either someone was slipping it under the door, or there are so many oddly specific parallels they lucked into it."
This is exactly what I wanted to explore with you, but you don't seem to want to play along (if so, ok). For instance if in Jeri Taylor's scripts there were subtle but noticable things that would make you raise an eyebrow if you were looking for them, that would be cool. I would certainly go back and rewatch episodes if I thought there was some signals coming through her writing in particular, being snuck in. The general writing team didn't seem to have any agenda to slip anything under the door as far as I could tell in regard to Seven.
"So, again, intentional or not, Seven of Nine is in fact queer-coded as fuck."
I can understand that one may be subconsciously informed by zeitgeist, or social cues you're channeling as a writer (or director). And I could also understand that even the vibe among the production and creative team could spill into actual production even though certain scripts don't explicitly take up the cause. But what I've been asking all along is what basis you have to say she's queer coded as fuck. If it's so blatant, surely you should be able to tell me an example or two, or perhaps an arc, that displays this very evident (to you) pattern? Even if it's under the radar, or a suspicion on your part, I will absolutely play ball and see if I can see it too. But I need something. Right now I got nothing.
"I believe the point that Peter was making was that shipping Seven-Chakotay was a haphazard decision (rather than a planned one) by the showrunners and that was effectively a slap in the face to *everyone watching the show*, rather than the LGBTQ community specifically."
Yes, and in fact I now remember reading something to the effect that Braga was bragging (that's what a Bragga does) about what he might do with the Seven character, and someone dared him or something to pair her up with Chakotay. This is not canonical as afaik, but the story goes that he did it just to show he didn't give a crap and was totally willing to. I personally couldn't help but interpret all of this as some kind of macho thing since she was dating Ryan and this is sort of indirectly like pimping her out for fun. And the off-screen tensions between Mulgrew and Ryan were no doubt exacerbated by the Braga-Ryan relationship. So to the extent that we want to make any claims at all about 'artistic intent' or even the final product, I think it needs to be understood as being in context of having a man-child in charge of the show (at least from what I've read). At least at first glance, this whole situation seems at least like a good candidate for being a slap in the face to women, if not the entire fanbase.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 6:50pm (UTC -5)
Yes, I'm sure. It does mean what you wrote, but it also includes characters/situations/relationships with a number of unintentionally queer characteristics.
The friendship between Garak and Dr Bashir on DS9, for example, has elements of queer coding, though the relationship is strictly platonic, and both characters are canonically (and explicitly) heterosexual. There's a certain flirtiness to their banter, teasing and testing each other in ways Bashir and Miles do not. There's the wide-eyed, questioning-but-eager babe in the woods, and the more worldly gentleman who wants to take him under his wing. And then there was Garak's very gentlemanly, very reluctant, seemingly sexless relationship with Ziyal. Of course, all this is very lightly queer-coded, so no one was overly-bothered when they alternately had heterosexual relationships, especially since Garak's was, ah, a little different.
Seven of Nine was different. There was a lot more to hang your hat on, so to speak, qualities, interactions, and feelings I've already listed. To be fair, though, there is a not-small contingent in the LGBTQ+ community who say that, rather than queer-coding, Seven et al is an example of queer-baiting, and not entirely without reason, given how her character ended up at the end of Voyager. Nevertheless, coding also fits, and I would argue with those people that without the coding, you can't really have the baiting. But that's not relevant to this.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:04pm (UTC -5)
I gave a number of examples. Seven's relationship with her body, and how both the Borg and Janeway messed with her bodily autonomy. Her struggles with identity, gender, attraction, romance, etc, trying to find the right "fit" for herself in each case. Her struggles for acceptance, and the way the crew criticized her way of thinking as wrong. Growing into a unique self that the "normal" social order does not fully accept. And so on.
If you're looking for official word, it seems I was wrong: There was a definite intention to make Seven queer. Executive Producer and writer Jeri Taylor said explicitly she meant for Seven to be gay, but was opposed repeatedly when she pushed for it. Cue the coding.
Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:29pm (UTC -5)
"I gave a number of examples. Seven's relationship with her body, and how both the Borg and Janeway messed with her bodily autonomy. Her struggles with identity, gender, attraction, romance, etc, trying to find the right "fit" for herself in each case. Her struggles for acceptance, and the way the crew criticized her way of thinking as wrong. Growing into a unique self that the "normal" social order does not fully accept. And so on."
What I'm trying to figure out is whether I can understand these as being *uniquely* indications of queer-coding, versus things that can be anything-coding depending on how you want to look at it. For instance if the invasion of Seven's bodily autonomy is queer-coding, does that mean that any story involving a Borg is a queer-coded story? The same with Hugh, Picard, and the Borg children on VOY?
In terms of the struggle to understand attraction and how one fits into it, might we not suggest that this search is in fact endemic to anyone in the process of adolescence? There is certainly a lot of 'figuring out' and 'exploring' in teenage years, and even college years; perhaps later even for many. What I'm not sure of is why this process is *necessarily* queer-relevant. Now I think maybe where Seven might fit into this (and you can tell me if you think this makes sense) is that she's doing at a more mature age what most humans do in their teens and early 20's, like asking basic questions such as "what attracts me?" and "do I want sexual thing?" So to the extent that many people who grew up assuming a heteronormative of gender-normative sexual identity might only later in life start to realize they need to re-explore that, Seven doing so also later in life could represent overlap in that regard. Is this an example of what you mean? Although I would personally understand this aspect of Seven to merely be a delayed phase since she wasn't individually conscious when she was 15, rather than an exploration of alternatives to the norm, nevertheless I can recognize that this may be an issue open to interpretation.
Now about struggling for acceptance when everyone tells her she's wrong, this is one details which I would disagree with outright as having much of anything to do with gender or sexuality. I would more closely link this aspect of her life with perhaps ethnocentrism or even racism in the sense that it's her previous culture which is being attacked left and right. What Seven sees as straightforward but others see as rude feels to me straight out of the culture-clash playbook. And I could perhaps equally see this as being in the neuro-atypical playbook as well, since people on the spectrum are often seen as rude when in fact they are just expressing themselves differently. Both of these seem to me to apply to Seven and the constant pushback she gets about being different. But of all things the crew gives her grief about, it seems to me that her sexual or even physical identity (despite the costume) are really never the issue.
I guess I still feel that what you're calling "coding" feels to me like a particular subset of the audience identifying with aspects of a character (which is great), which to me is not the same thing as the character being actually written for that purpose. For better or worse, my standard of interpretation tends to be that if I don't see it onscreen, it's not canonical. And this goes in reverse as well. For instance in the infamous Galaxy's Child thread I mentioned at one point that while I doubt the writers wanted Geordi to come off as a jerk I think he is a jerk in the episode. So what you see is what you get. Even if Jeri Taylor wanted Seven to be gay, I don't see it onscreen that I can recall. But I will commit to at least looking for this if/when I rewatch some VOY eps going forward.
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:52am (UTC -5)
I have dabbled in the dark arts (gender studies) and what often bothers me when it comes to our young daughter science (which is across the street from my institute) is the willingness to use shaky methodology, often vague and all encompassing definitions and post positivist methods that barely deserve the name scientific. Sure, it's a young field and when it comes to questions of gender (which includes queer studies) spending a good amount of time identifying biases is necessary, still it slowly has to get away from the strong focus on post structuralist and post positivist approaches. Your argument seems to exhibit the normative and interpretative approach often found in this field which is more opinion than science.
While you can have any opinion you want and your argument is not without merit, I must admit that I still find Peter's reasoning more convincing. Maybe approach these questions with a more scientific mindset, meaning less certainty and more curiosity. It helps to avoid perception bias. ;)
Personally, I'm with Kate Mulgrew and her dislike for Ryan's role. Ryan was put in there to make male nerds happy (and give women body issues). Most of her character traits if not all can be explained by making her more desirable for young heterosexual men which was probably the majority of the audience. For me that is a more convincing argument, especially considering that viewership went up after they included Ryan. Let's not forget that it is a business these people are running. Again both your and Peter's arguments are valid but nobody can claim to be in definitely right.
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 7:37am (UTC -5)
It strikes me as some variation on the Sixto Rodriguez phenomena. You wake up one day and discover that your work has been claimed by a whole subculture you never even knew about. I wonder what Braga et al. think about this?
Has this whole Voyager queer coding thing been revealed to the show's creators? Have the Delta Flyers talked about it on their podcast?
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 8:24am (UTC -5)
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 9:15am (UTC -5)
As it relates to classic Trek, I don't see 7 of 9 as being anything other than heterosexual and it was just a matter of her regaining her humanity, rediscovering emotions etc. after the trauma of being assimilated -- she has her mannerisms and personality, but I believe VOY never intended for her to be anything but hetero and that's how she came across to me. Now whatever nu-Trek does with her is an entirely different story.
I think the same could be said for Garak -- I don't see him as being non-hetero at all. He too has his personality, mannerisms and is an incredible character with an intriguing backstory but I don't believe he was ever meant to be anything other than hetero. He was meant to be mysterious and arouse all kinds of suspicions so if some fans hypothesize that he was non-hetero, so be it, but I don't think that's the case.
Classic Trek has episodes like "The Outcast" or "Rejoined" where non-hetero is a clear theme -- maybe even "The Host". And what about "Amok Time"? Do some folks attribute Spock's approach to his sexuality as non-hetero? I don't think that was the intention of the writers back then either.
If some folks are looking for non-hetero in Trek, then DSC is the one that made a big deal of having the first openly gay character in a Trek series. And it then went on to add more non-hetero characters and actors. It may have been trying to push diversity but it failed on the inclusion aspect given its attitude toward hetero white males, which were almost always portrayed negatively.
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 9:27am (UTC -5)
Re: Garak the one wrinkle there is that I do think the actor overtly was hinting at non-hetero in his initial episode (he has said as much), but recognized that the writers did not want to go in that direction and so sort of let it go. That's a decent example of something an audience member might see as a signal, but which was not coming from the writing staff or perhaps even the director. So I would agree that such 'coding' can come from many sources. It's just that in the case of Seven I don't think I see it coming from anywhere at all.
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 10:11am (UTC -5)
I'm aware there's a big thread under "Past Prologue" re. Garak's sexuality -- the initial scene where he's introduced to Bashir is terrific but I never read into it that he's anything other than hetero -- he's toying with Bashir to some extent, realizing that the Dr. is not comfortable with Cardies. A fan can use some mosaic theory with him being a tailor, being alone, platonic relationship with Ziyal etc. and wonder about his sexuality but I never thought of him as anything other than hetero and that all these things are basically coincidences. That the writers didn't play up non-hetero for Garak in any subplot sort of confirms that to me.
I think what's going on with this overall discussion here is a bit of presentism. Non-hetero is a bigger deal in the general consciousness now than it was 25-30 years ago.
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 10:29am (UTC -5)
The point is that Robinson opened the door to see if anyone would walk through it. Look at how he touches Bashir's shoulder; it's at minimum peculiar, designed to arouse interest (or paranoia). It's a concrete example of an actor putting 'something' out there for us to see, whether or not the entire audience interpreted as related to sexuality. It's the case of Seven of Nine where I would like someone to point out any door being opened by anyone that can be seen onscreen.
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 10:42am (UTC -5)
I'm just about caught up and am at Scientific Method now. So there's only two newer episodes I haven't listened to yet, but so far they haven't said anything about this as far as I recall. They both lambasted the blatant pandering to hetero males with Seven's catsuit, and the Doctor's wholly inappropriate "vicarious experience" hair follicle restoration comment from earlier in the season. Still, we’re only 1/3 of the way through season 4 so Seven is still a very new character at this point.
Overall this situation sounds similar to that of Judy Garland and/or Cher, both unintentional gay icons. Like @Top Hat said, coding seems like it implies intent, and considering how overt Seven’s heteronormative appeal is, I’m having a hard time seeing any intentional queer coding in Seven. She comes across more to me (as @Peter G. and @Booming said already) as simply an adolescent misfit trying to find her place. That appeals broadly to everyone, but even more so to LGBTQ people, intentionally or not. That’s what happened with Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz.
You can definitely read a lot of queer coding into The Wizard of Oz: the bright “gay” colors, the Emerald City representing New York or San Francisco as bastions of acceptance occupied by campy citizens, beautiful drag queens (the good witch), blingy shoes, Somewhere Over the Rainbow, and of course the misfit friends she meets along her journey. The Cowardly Lion is the only character who is overtly gay (acting) or at least effeminate. Would he be an example of queer coding, or is he too overt? Just about the entire cast is camp in some way, even in dreary sepia-toned Kansas, so compared to the rest of them the Lion isn’t as over-the-top as he would be otherwise.
That said, there’s no evidence of intentional queer coding in the movie, aside from The Cowardly Lion’s situation anyway. That all seems to come from the 1950s and 1960s after the movie and Garland were already “poached” so to speak. The bright colors of Oz contrast with the bleak conditions of rural Kansas during both the Dust Bowl and Great Depression. The Emerald City evokes the Century of Progress Exposition, hopeful for a brighter future of technology and innovation in the face of economic collapse and poverty. The campy acting and costumes are just as easily interpreted as contrasts to banal reality, and it is an outgrowth of Broadway style stage acting that was more common at the time. They also wanted to show off their new Technicolor film process, so they absolutely turned it all up to 11.
I think this is the more reasonable take on the situation, same with Voyager. Straight adolescents trying to figure themselves out go through many of the same things as LGBTQ people, but the LGBTQ have even more hurdles to overcome in that regard. So deliberately appealing to the former can unintentionally appeal even more to the latter. Same for the wide-eyed country kid moving to the big city. They’re looking for new opportunities and a broader more accepting community. The LGBTQ kid moving to the big city wants that too, as well as to escape small-town persecution and an acute lack of potential partners. So again, the appeal is magnified even if unintentional.
I think another difference is that Seven doesn’t translate well to a gay icon like Judy Garland, Cher, Dolly Parton, or Lady Gaga, certainly not as a drag queen. Though Jeri Ryan has a great singing voice, she’s not pop star, and there’s nothing camp about Seven either. Seven is anti-camp, with her regimented and logical character. The catsuit is anti-camp as well. BDSM-ish yes, but only in a hetero way. So the gay icon appeal of Seven is lacking. Judy Garland was specifically admired for rising to the challenges she faced in real life, not just on the big screen, where she deftly played the “girl next door” despite over-the-top makeup and costuming, essentially the equivalent of straight acting. That’s relatable to LGBTQ people, while Cher and the others are glamorous, fabulous even, which is appealing in a different way. Does Seven, or Jeri Ryan, have any of that? It doesn’t seem like it.
I can see Garak either way. Andrew Robinson absolutely tried to slip some things in, but Garak is such a devious and ambiguous character that his (likely bisexual) tendencies could never be pinned down for certain. Cardassians in general have some very odd social norms (think of that time a female Cardassian scientist thought O'Brien was coming on to her because he kept arguing with her), so that complicates the matters even more. Still, everyone talks about how Garak might be gay, including Andrew Robinson, is there much out there about Seven aside from this thread, or from Jeri Ryan prior to Picard?
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 10:47am (UTC -5)
Glad you brought that up as a concrete example. Yes, I remember that touch of the shoulder -- I did find it curious for an introductory meeting but did not interpret it as relating to sexuality. Fostering paranoia in Bashir would be closer to how I read that scene.
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 11:07am (UTC -5)
"Yes, I remember that touch of the shoulder -- I did find it curious for an introductory meeting but did not interpret it as relating to sexuality. Fostering paranoia in Bashir would be closer to how I read that scene."
Not to harp on the point, as your own perspective is totally valid, but you might feel differently if it had been a strange man dressed in stripes walking right behind *you* and putting a hand gently on your shoulder while smiling. I have a suspicion this would raise in your physical awareness more than just "oh this is maybe how spies act." To me this very specific instance may be a matter of how much you identify with Bashir's experience in that situation (like how you'd feel in his place) versus watching from afar Bashir the goofball being toyed with by an expert. Both are understandable. I'm just saying it's clearly there onscreen for us to even be able to talk about it.
Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:57pm (UTC -5)
"For instance if the invasion of Seven's bodily autonomy is queer-coding, does that mean that any story involving a Borg is a queer-coded story? The same with Hugh, Picard, and the Borg children on VOY?"
You raise an interesting issue: does violation in and of itself necessarily compromise gender identity? If so, the body envelope of any being processed into the Borg collective must be considered so rifled, that their original identity factors are irrelevant.
I compare the Borg children to members of the Addams Family, although these kids are not nearly as oblivious as the A-Family was to being misfits.
These beings are 'other-coded.' Seven, from the start was other-coded. Her childhood prior to assimilation was completely abnormal. She is the semi-neglected offspring of obsessed scientists willing to put her at risk. Her development was bound to be otherish and cold. This spiral was nascent in her and then exacerbated by the Borg. To me, the Borg are coded as Punk. This is a nuance perhaps, but captures the essence of a category broader than LGBTQ.
Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 10:02am (UTC -5)
"@navamske - You didn't mention that at the beginning of the scene before [Janeway] reads the letter she looks a bit apprehensive as if she's afraid of what she might find. Then her relief as she begins the letter and smiles and then the slow devastation as she finishes the letter. No sniff, no tears, no gasp... just pain on her face as she loses her hope of being able to regain what she's lost."
All good points, thanks. And sorry this is like eight years late.
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