“The Sehlat Who Ate Its Tail”

It feels like this episode is finally a return to form for season three, or perhaps return to a *better* form as it were. The obvious parallel can be drawn with "Doomsday Machine", but unlike that episode, the deadly "machine" or rather ship is actually piloted by some unexpected occupants with eventually very clear motives.

What was less clear is how the occupants of that ship (or rather, behemoth) managed to survive all this time since the 21st century in which they presumably launched. The backstory is rather unsatisfying in that respect, I felt. Acting Captain Kirk's sympathy after the fact for the behemoth's crew of 7,000 seems to be based simply on the fact that they shared a common racial thread with the Federation, but otherwise didn't seem to make much sense (the behemoth was, after all, going to suck the Enterprise dry, and practically wiped out at least one planet).

I can't remember, but did they even attempt to communicate with the behemoth? If they had, they might have resolved the episode a lot faster than they actually did...

The plot and motives aside, our intrepid crew was otherwise quite tolerable this week and in good character, with thankfully a cessation of any romantic or sexual tension between anyone, simply a crew who's getting down to business. In retrospect, the story itself didn't seem like it was much of anything but a dramatic vehicle especially for Kirk to demonstrate the difficulties of making command decisions. Ortegas was quite tolerable this time around, and Una's heroic airlock stunt (?) made for some mildly riveting action in the last part of the show.

Is it my imagination, or did Pike's hairdo seem even more... um, pronounced than usual?

This was a very good episode. Kirk's own Galileo Seven moment, where we see a small fragment of the command style he will have to create. This is Paul Wesley's best performance to date, and he finally feels like a proto-Kirk in the same way that Martin Quinn feels like a proto-Scotty. I love that not everything Kirk tried worked, I love that the focus was always on saving lives, and I love that there were a minimum of callbacks (call-forwards?) or weird implications of mythic destiny like SNW has unfortunately done in the past. Just a bunch of professionals making the best calls they can and working through a crisis together - pure Star Trek.

And I really appreciated the detail that Kirk's first instinct when under command pressure is to separate himself, compared to Pike's instinct to seek out others. It's a direct throughline to the man in TOS who often talked about the isolating burden of command.

This is also a high point for Pelia as a character, and I love the idea that she carries around a bunch of crap from over the centuries just in case it might be useful one day.

Probably the majority of this episode's discussion will be on the scavenger ship, and while I appreciate the writers' restraint in not showing how it all went wrong over 200 years, I do wish we'd gotten just one or two more hints into their actual motivation, so it wasn't such a complete blank. (Although I did like the moment where the scavenger didn’t shoot Pike after finally seeing his human face, it strains credulity to say that was their first encounter with other humans.) My best guess is since they came from a world where almost everyone had failed - governments, corporations, the population's apathy as a whole - it was easy to turn from "we are the best of humanity" to "everyone else we left behind is morally inferior to us and doomed to slowly die on the planet they killed," and it just fell apart from there over the generations.

4 Stars.

A straightforward and impressive episode, spectacular from the get-go, with exciting (and Trekkian) action and ethics throughout.

Great to see the Farragut, and the juxtaposition of NuKirk’s crushing boredom there being superseded by the shock and disorientation caused by the attack – in which the Farragut is swept up, rather than the target, a nice touch – works extremely well.

The appearance of the Enterprise – although very NuTrek with its sudden stop from warp into a debris field – is appropriately heroic and cavalry-like; the visual effects of the damaged and drifting Farragut being protected by the manoeuvring Enterprise with its (NuTrek) shields sparking was an impressive shot.

‘Nessie’s gub’ did make me laugh out loud, and NuScotty’s line about John Logie Baird was quite entertaining but, as is typical for SNW, it frustratingly defused the suspense that the scene actually needed to work.

The constant foreshadowing of NuKirk and the captain’s chair (including bars from the Trek theme) is however very heavy-handedly done and, like NuScotty’s lines, frustratingly interferes with suspension of disbelief in what are otherwise scenes that work perfectly. I do wish SNW would rein in its meta impulses more.

La’an, Una, Ortegas (!) and Mitchell are used very well to gradually build the mystery of the alien ship, each of them one by one contributing their own personal experience from remote colonies, the war and the academy of this ominous ‘destroyer of worlds’.

All the crew are noticeably more professional in this episode, the odd quip aside. Even Pelia, once she has her cringey lines out of the way, generally acts professionally and is important, rather than incidental, to the plot.
It’s a pleasure to just watch Starfleet crews being professional in a can-do way, offering reasonable objections but still finding compromises and building on one another’s strengths. Una’s conversation with Ortegas and Mitchell about flying blind was great.

But oh dear. NuKirk needs to ‘clear his head’, and he stomps off so the crew start speculating about his feelings and their own. This is intrusive. When NuScotty later says to NuKirk, ‘Thank you, sir – I needed to hear that,’ it is neither necessary nor professional, even though the writers are trying to show how NuKirk is taking everyone’s feelings into account when making decisions. Tell don’t show is an utter bane of NuTrek.

The Spock-NuKirk scene was compelling, if somewhat forced – NuKirk’s sudden crisis of self-confidence isn’t entirely convincing, but the dialogue is mostly impressive and the scene is well-acted.

The action scenes with La’an and Pike against the two intruders are gripping and logical throughout. In fact, the La’an-Pike pairing is excellent from start to finish (‘take a big step’).

The setting up of an analogue telephone network throughout the ship to co-ordinate propulsion is amusingly absurd. I did like Una’s response when she heard the dial tone. I can accept these scenes for their sheer charm and visual silliness. It shouldn’t work, but it did.

The destruction of the scavenger ship seemed far too easy, but I wasn’t surprised. I was surprised however by the major revelation underpinning the ending. It harks back to a lot of Trek episodes, but I found it hard to believe that the crew wouldn’t have known of this ship until Uhura did a search of the database. That said, the revelation was a powerful one, with life signs dwindling in real time and the sheer scale of the consequence of their actions gradually dawning on the crew (the sight of bodies floating in space was striking). The final scene between Pike and NuKirk was interesting – I am still pondering it – but the mixture of large-scale human tragedy with personal ambition sits uneasily with me.

Overall an engaging, really excellent episode and definitely one of SNW’s best so far. Not much to ‘hate’ here.

Edge of the seat stuff! By far the best episode this season, and probably longer than that if I bothered to look it up. Best use of Pike in a loooong time. Best use of Pelia ever. Great suspense and pacing. I especially liked the twist toward the end, starting with Pike being spared.

Kirk's character is carefully developed here, starting with a rashness that is implied to be from boredom but may also be a reaction to the earlier Farragut disaster under Capt. Garrovick, where he blamed himself for being too slow. This isn't mentioned at all, but it seems reasonable to me. I thought the "freezing" was maybe slightly overdone, but overall everything worked and Paul Wesley did a great job.

The success of this episode shows what SNW should be doing more of, showing us an entirely new incident, new one-time-only alien, and at least mentioning a new planet with a good name (I'm never fond of planets named for their star; people would always give their home a specific name). I could watch this episode again right away.

Well, that was good!
That was very very good.
Halleluiah!

I would also love to know more details on what made the humans from USA to evolve as Destroyers of the Worlds, but it is ok.

Is it me, or this episode's Kirk was the closest to the TOS one we had so far?
Quite Shatnerish, well compared to his previous appearances. It was actually the first time Paul Wesley's Kirk didn't annoy me.

Ok, I need your feedback please:
Could you please tell me what on earth is the use of lens flares?
Apart from making watching this episode painful for our eyes, that is
I mean why? why? why?

That was a good episode!

@TheBgt:
'Could you please tell me what on earth is the use of lens flares?'

Agreed. Very distracting in the scene with Captain V'Rel. I took it to be an oversight as the lens flares couldn't possibly have been intentional, they were that extreme and disruptive there. I honestly noticed them in that one scene, though.

@Chappity The destroyer ship was flooding the zone with interference to the point where the ships had to use line of sight (laser line) to communicate with each other. Hence having to wire the Enterprise with copper POTS lines.

To be honest I felt a little cheated they used flight sticks instead of the Atari 2600-style joysticks.

Also, a technical nitpick--I was annoyed that the wires connecting the phones to each other were multistranded monstrosities. Analog phones literally need only two wire to connect to a central office. If people were going around the ship to strip it of copper wire, they used vastly more than they needed to by the looks of the wire bundle.

@Daniel: Ah yes, the interference thing. I agree about the joysticks, too... Pelia seemed to be taking out an old Atari 2600 from her box of ancient goodies, ha! Finally, a good use of the character.

Easily, and far and away, the best episode of the season. A showcase of the best Trek has to offer.

The core of this episode is the character journey of Jim Kirk during his first captaincy, and it succeeded here in spades. Kirk starts the episode gloriously flawed - in some ways greener than what we saw of him last season. But he learns hard lessons through the disaster of his acting captaincy. I enjoyed the choice that it was Spock that needed to break him out of his funk - that Kirk's success as a captain in TOS in part relied upon Spock's counsel. Though the decision to have all the TOS characters (Spock, Chapel, Uhura, Scotty) could seem a little contrived, this could also be seen as something of a forging of what's to come - the beginning of a connection which means when Kirk takes over for Pike, he asks for them to stay, or they wish to stay on.

But, like a lot of the big disaster episodes of Star Trek, this is mostly an exercise in collaborative problem solving - in this case times two, as we have both the Farragut and Enterprise crews trying desperately to defeat the scavenger ship. Considering how fragmented all of this was across various subplots, from La'an and Pike in combat to the scavengers, to Pelia's insane plan to manually wire the ship (her having rotary phones for centuries honestly pushed past suspension of disbelief for me) it's surprising that it all hung together. The technobabble didn't really bother me either, perhaps in part because the solutions they were coming to were tangible, rather than just throwing more technobabble at things while staring at a screen.

I'm seeing some mixed feelings about the last-minute reveal that the scavenger ship was crewed by humans, but I loved it. The choice gave depth to an episode that would otherwise be a fairly conventional disaster tale. It's very Trekkian to eschew uncomplicated villains, after all. I like ending on the mystery of how after the cultural drift of centuries, the best and brightest of humanity turned into something unrecognizable and evil. I also like that it gave Kirk a taste of ashes in his mouth, as a simple victory would leave him with only a single lesson learned. Leadership is often hard, and every choice has a consequence.

I don't think the episode was perfect. I think Pelia's phone idea was frankly unneeded narratively. It might have made sense to have included Sam Kirk here, though I'd prefer he stay onboard the Enterprise. But it's as close to perfect as SNW has accomplished to date, and clearly in the top five of the show as a whole.

After a string of bunts, strikeouts, and weak singles, the third season finally hit one out of the park. Wow loved this episode! Easily the best episode of Season 3 by a country mile. In my view, one of the very best episodes of the entire series. Kirk’s first command! Pike in action. Spock calming the indecisive confused Kirk. Pike giving counsel, wisdom to Kirk. Loved the unexplained ending and the endless possibilities on what may have happened. Classic Trek. I’m excited.

I wish I could share the enthusiasm. Was it bad? No. I guess it was "fine"
But having CHAPEL doubt Kirk at a crucial moment when he is taking command really bugged me.. she is an ensign at best.

So many things ripped from other media The cat clock was from Back to the Future as was the line about the specific component (I can't remember) doing its thing .. it's a ripoff of Marty saying "flux capacitor is.... fluxing" you will know what moment I meant. And the whole astronauts angle at the end being "the best of us" was ripped carte blanch from Interstellar.

So why would these scavengers, being human, wear space suits that make them look like they belong in that 90s Super Mario Brothers film?

Why would Kirk feel badly for the dead humans at the end, beyond just feeling generally bad that they died. Would he have felt just as bad if they were Tholians. My point is he would have felt worse if he lost his friends and colleagues. Also these guys were in a massive ship about to destroy planets, and it doesn't take a mental giant to know that you gotta stop them even if it means killing them. The moral quandary at the end feels forced.

Wesley doesn't feel like Kirk at all. Pelia is bloody annoying. The phone bit was trite and gimmicky.

like the other SNW episodes (and I mean ALL of them), it pulls me out how META these episodes are.. wink wink you are in Star Trek. And Trek has had that before, but they usually built the characters and their relations in a satisfying way before the meta humor is used.

It was... fine. It was still so by the numbers in a era where we are paying extra to see ten episodes a year and we are getting literally nothing to feed our brains and make us truly think

FOUR STARS
FOUR STARS
FOUR STARS

This is the episode I’ve been waiting for this season. Start to finish, immaculate. I don’t say that easily. Everyone understood their roles.

The foreshadowing and emotional tension was brilliantly done. The team is coming together. Bravo bravo bravo.

There was not a single bad performance!!

Even Ortegas knocked it out of the park! If SNW can keep this up, I’ll be blown away. Ortegas if you can be like this week, maybe we won’t wish for your hasty demise.

Laan and Pike, wonderful
Even Pelia has an amazing role here.

The crew on the Farragut, giving me chills knowing what’s to come. Ok maybe I finally can ge t behind this Star Trek: Year One idea.

Paul Wellesley clearly is taking this seriously and it’s about to get stakes as the show nears the halfway point. Keep it up.

A true ensemble episode. Great flow. Never once checked how much time left in the episode.

Ok jammer it’s come due. THIS EPISODE GETS FOUR STARSSSSSSSSSSSS.

THIS IS THE STAR TREK WEVE BEEN WAITING FOR.

So the Enterprise teams up with the Faragut to fight a cross between the Borg and the Doomsday Machine that looks like Galactus' skull.

Very moody, atmospheric piece. An impressive outing, even if we never got an explanation about how a pre warp 5 vessel made it this far out and got itself changed into a planet killing interstellar pirate ship.

Seeing them break out the old phones gave me Galactica vibes in the best way possible.

@MercerCreate,

The way I look at it, Kirk's position is like if you're a soldier who shoots a guy in self-defense, then finds a picture of his kids on his body. It's a reminder that the enemy on the other side of the conflict was a person, and had value. You might never think you took the wrong action, but you'd still take the feeling you made some kids orphans with you to your grave.

An argument can be made that Kirk, as a product of 23rd century multiculturalism, shouldn't particularly care the scavengers are human. But it's clearly a moment of vulnerability for Kirk, when he realizes, despite what he thought, he maybe was a little bit racist after all, and needed to check it.

@Karl Zimmerman

I don't disagree with the point you are trying to make.

But the story, as presented, Kirk could do nothing else. They might have increased the stakes by revealing that these were humans DURING the conflict.

Trek has done this scenarios before, where the captain has to make decis9pns and live with the consequences and a bit of guilt. But it's usually more effective than how it's played here...just my opinion.

I really hope this isn’t a one off and we can learn more about this rogue human group. I think it would be timely given our current state of affairs. And it could add to the Star Trek canon in a way that isn’t too unbelievable for fitting in with its absence from future canon

Human villains would be very Trekkian.

Again blown away by this episode.

I liked that Kirk was feeling uneasy with the deaths of 7000 persons. This is Star Trek.
Wasn't an episode of Disco, I think 3rd season finale, while trying to escape or something they destroyed a ship with tens of thousands of people and they did not blink an eye? I might not remember that episode's details but I do remember how much this action frustrated me.

Easily the best episode of the season, surprised this wasn’t chosen as the season finale, also happy it was an episode that had a little bit to say. Season 3 finally gets a 4 star from me. Definitely one of the best episodes of SNW, and proves it still has some juice left in the tank.

I wonder what the three episodes we have left (that aren’t the Vulcan shenanigans episode) will be about. Clearly the showrunners believe they have a stronger episode than this to end on.

well what started as a good space adventure ended with a big surprise! very good!

This is the first ever episode of SNW I actually re-watched, and I enjoyed it just as much the second time around. So much so, in fact, that it inspired me to re-watch 'Those Old Scientists' (which was just as brilliant as I recall), 'Children of the Comet' and 'Ghosts of Illyria' (the latter two being much more sophisticated than I remember the first time around).

The only criticisms I have about this episode are essentially entirely superficial and aesthetic (aside from the unnecessary emotional interlude and quipping – which was toned down *a lot* this week – mentioned above, I didn't much like the animalistic look of the scavenger ship, for example), which are no worthwhile criticisms at all, of course.

It's a great episode and I don't think it could have been done any better.

@MercerCreate:
I really liked the suits that the 'aliens' had. It gave the impression of layers of technology cobbled together over time (which was the case of course). The lumbering movement gave the impression that the 'aliens' inside were rather non-human, while in-universe it also made sense that these suits would be intended for any number of eventualities and environmens. I particularly liked the visual effects when they were hit by phaser fire (which, yes, recalled – intentionally, I suspect – the same effect on the Borg).

I do still completely agree with your point about NuKirk – Wesley isn't Kirk for me (nor Quinn as NuScotty) and never will be. That said, I do very much enjoy Wesley's performance in and of itself, and I just imagine that he's a completely different character – a character I genuinely like (but who couldn't possibly be Kirk!). That way I can still enjoy what I'm watching. Wesley is a great cast member, but he absolutely isn't Kirk in my view.

2 good episodes in a row. That is a record.
LOL

//Again blown away by this episode.//

Not literally, eh? No pun intended?

I also found this episode to be funny on 2 occasions.

Well, I was very positively surprised with this episode! It was entertaining and really felt like an Star Trek episode. I think it was the best of thee entire series so far. The pacing, the action, the interactions between characters, the ending and the very trekkian message it had, I have enjoyed everything. Four stars.

Eric Jensen, were you planning to share those occasions with us?

I watched this a second time and picked out some details, mostly to love but some to whine about.
- Loved seeing Scotty talking to the ship.
- Seeing the Enterprise being dragged into the destroyer's mouth was great.
- Spock's joke about demoting Kirk at the first opportunity was a foreshadowing of their little humorous moments at the end of so many TOS episodes. Was this one of your "occasions"?
- The writing clearly applies the title to both Kirk himself and the destroyer ship, which is a nice bit of complexity.
- The discovery that the destroyers are human is handled extremely well with the cross-cutting between the ships. Would this have been in the writing or the directing? Anyway, it was perfect.

The whines - which didn't affect my enjoyment, but did distract me for a second or two each - are these:
- Pelia is an old friend of God? Please.
- A fancy chandelier with hundreds of hanging pieces seems like a terrible decoration for a starship.
- Uhura's lipstick makes her look like she has a mustache.

This was as perfect as a Star Trek episode gets. I can't wait to see what Jammer has to say.

Oh oops, guess I can't edit? I forgot one whine. There's never any followup about Sullivan's planet. Somebody should have reminded Kirk that along with the 7000 dead, he saved the hundreds of millions there.

@ The Queen:
Pelia is an old friend of God? Please.

Thought she said she was a roadie for the Dead. May have run into her from time to time during my Deadhead days

Much better. 3.5 stars with points off for Pelia stupidity and plot recycling. Otherwise, a great character show that had my attention. Showing Kirk's growth in to the captains chair with development his relationship with his future crew was great to see. Spock was back from the buffoonery to be the Spock we all know and love. Scotty is believable as the not yet miracle worked. Pike also back from the buffoonery of past episodes shows leadership and mentorship in a believable way. More of this please

Top 5 SNW episode for me. Excellent work from start to finish. Seeing the US flag and the original crew as akin to NASA remnants was a somber moment. M’Benga’s reaction to Pelia’s quarters and her solution were nice touches. Everyone got to contribute this week.

Last two episodes have knocked it out the park.

Wow! I didn't think this show was still capable of producing an episode of this quality. So good.

My beef with this episode really kinda connects back to the way prequels handle character growth.

Whenever prequel shows or films handle iconic characters, they always have to retcon-deconstruct them into basically the opposite character traits of what we originally knew about them. Uhura was a timid wreck. Scotty was an uncertain dont-count-on-others type. Spock was a volatile man-whore. And instead of being introduced to these characters as confident professionals and simply watching them be refined in the years leading up to what we remember, we're always shown them as the OPPOSITE of what we knew and asked to accept that a few words from a scriptwriter turned them around 180 degrees.

This isn't how personal growth works. If you sat the families of the Big Seven down in 2290 and interviewed them, they'd probably say something like, "we knew s/he was destined for greatness from the moment they put on the uniform". Realistically, the character archetypes were probably largely the same from youth to their prime years, not the opposite. I get that they might show the characters getting TWEAKED, shaped by challenge and failure over the years, but radical transformations don't feel right. And they especially don't feel right when EVERY character's journey is treated that way.

And now it's happened to Kirk. Again. He's a pissy, unstable officer with as cool of a head as a 14-year-old, and the script doesn't even bother pretending otherwise. It was Kelvin's biggest sin all over again - making a mockery of the Kirk character. At least here in Prime, I get SOME impression of a competent guy in a professional world, and there's some attempt at the old dynamic of "here's what we can and can't do" and "well SOMETHING has to happen", but in the end, the character gets assassinated. Again. I didn't need to hear "I have no idea what I'm supposed to do" in Into Darkness, as if this was some after-school special, and guess what we heard here.

And despite the recognizably Kirk moments that Wesley is given in the final confrontation ("I do, Mr. Scott" rang true), I am not buying that one pep talk from a screenwriter repairs such character deficiencies. They were talking about medically relieving him a minute before. It's too much and again I'm pulled out of the show.

One of Picard's greatest gems, one that gets constantly rebroadcasted across social media for its value, was a jarring-but-true shoulder-shaking. "It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life. Now leave your self-doubt in your quarters!" But here's Strange New Worlds, in which every character, right down to bit players like Chapel who are getting their own interpretations for some reason, has had to either struggle with confidence from the beginning or get shocked into it when the chair first presented itself. It's as if Kurtzman-world is determined to address the franchise exclusively to the therapy rabbits of the world. It's gallingly basic, and it loses staying power after sixteen years.

It's all failing the Patton test: "I don't give a shit where the stuff I love comes from!! I'm just love the stuff I love!!" Or as someone else said, at least show rather than tell. A more subtle approach might have done wonders.

Oh, and in addition to the narrative fun of Spock bedding a Khan descendant, are he and Kirk now being set up for a love triangle?

This show just keeps on missing.



Positives:

"All stations prepare for..." *grinning city-sized eldritch skull* "...well, for that."

The cat clock and joysticks.

The crew mulling over how to relieve Kirk. The script does play this right.

"Your quarters are...exactly what I expected."

Having to wire the Enterprise occupies just the right amount of the episode. Too much of that conceit and the episode might have collapsed under its own weight. I was worried about that when I saw it in trailers.

A break from Batel. I would be rooting for her a lot more if the character were developed.

I remind everyone that TOS Kirk was impulsive and not always perfect. Keep in mind a lot of the 1960's characterization was thin leaving room for growth in the movies. There was the closeness of the Big 3 but it wasn't exactly explained much. Even Kirk's backstory left a lot to the imagination. He didn't have an "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel" to really delve in to character. Kirk became a character in "The Wrath of Khan" and "The Search for Spock" in ways people have written actual books about. I hear the complaints about him being out his league but he's still young and it doesn't contradict anything from earlier/later. It even makes sense with his strong rejection of the no win scenario.

Impulsive is fine. Juvenile is not interesting.

Really shocked it was not the Pakled as the big alien reveal. Honestly, I feel like a Pakled robbed me of some fun.

The genocidal hooman baddies were frankly shoehorned in; the confusion of their brief backstory overhelmed the charm. I'm curious how they managed to exist for a few hundred years as a legendary bogeyman race.

You're saying some lost less-than-impulse-speed travelers outpaced the entire Federation, their enemies, and their predators? How does that work? Oh, they're all already dead? Nevermind. So, what else is new? The Gorn wear leotards now, what?!

By the way, it was kind of annoying how they were bringing back up the "Everyone Knows (And Fears) Their Name" legendary enemy motif that the alien body possessors from last episode had. How many ultra-devils exist now in Trek??

Otherwise, an alright episode that is safe in every regard, especially from being memorable.

TOY

Cheating on the Kobayashi Maru, bedding every woman in sight in and being an absent father is not exactly mature. Young Kirk is a blank canvas and nothing he did was so out there for someone without command experience. It’s well established that even older Kirk believed he could cheat death. A younger Kirk could definitely do that in ill thought out ways.

WHY ASTROVORE!! I get objectivrly how thematically it is better and stronger for it to be humams, but wasnt anyone else disappointed the Destroyer wasnt itself a big space.dwelling ljfe form/amomaly like I thought and hoped or then crewed by unique and new aliens once we saw humanoids inside it??...sigh** this is Strange New Worlds after all not sljghtly unusual Cranky Old Humans..I missed the sexy quantum here /not here matter based/not matter/energy based , eye-socket socking, life sucking lovelies from last week..didnt anyone else? Or specifcally waznt anyone else wishing the Destroyer was ppld by new strsnge aliens we could learn about..not more Gorn or Vesda though..but yea blah blah humanistic themes.blah..Bad Humans Bad!! Sit! Stay!! .go to your rooms and stop cannibalizing your own progeny or no Destroyer driving privileges this weelend! be better in the futire humsny wumany...thank u next more aliens pleasd

I prefer TOS Kirk to movie era Kirk. The movie era version is very...I don't know..."fannish" maybe. It's like TOS Kirk is the real character and the movie era Kirk is the over-the-top version that fans built up in their heads over the ensuing years. Kirk the man vs Kirk the legend.

That "I don't believe in no win situations" line will always bug me. The man that lived through City on the Edge of Forever and A Private Little War would never say that.

Why is this show so obsessed with Captain Kirk and the rest of the TOS crew? We don't need them. SNW has a great cast. Focus on them! I was excited for SNW to explore strange new worlds and new characters without the baggage of 60 years of canon. But nope we get more of these characters whose stories we already know. Move on!

In the streaming era you don't cancel a show on season 5 when you're only a few weeks into season 3 unless you really have faith in it.

Otherwise they would have just canceled it at season 4 or even after season 3 and just scrapping whatever they started with season 4 which some streamers are willing to do.

I would surmise that this is a back door both Secret Hideout and Paramount are leaving to relaunch the show as simply Star Trek after a Strange New Worlds season 5 comes to a close.

And the strongest proof for that theory coming true is this episode. ( wonder if that was the plan all along given how strong the ratings and fan response are to this across the board where they make a good show of canceling it like all the shows that only go to season 5 (Even Stranger Things only got five seasons) and then they'll just relaunch SNW as "NuTOS" so Paramount+ can still say they were they were being fiscally responsible.

This is probably about the best SNW can come up with in terms of originality and trying to have some depth and meaningful moments, but this episode continues to be hamstrung by what cheapens the overall product that is SNW. It borrows some ideas from "The Doomsday Machine" or "One Small Step" but this scavenger ship thing is ridiculous -- it looked scaaaarrry!! -- and the obvious question Kirk asks at the end about what happened to the best of humanity is a mystery that doesn't have the impact of some of the better pure mysteries from classic Trek.

Again, I felt like the resolution was too perfect given the circumstances -- much like "Hegemony, Part II". Pelia (super-annoying again) with the old-school phones as communicators is typical SNW nonsense. Kirk, with his crisis of confidence, whips up a technobabble solution and of course it works. Pike gets the scavenger ship to disconnect quite summarily.

But the main idea here is Kirk's first real command in a crisis. Pike gets to give Kirk a father-to-son speech, about empathy. Maybe for now Pike can say we're not that different from the enemy, not having met the Borg. Kirk gets a baptism by fire in command. The concept is good but the execution is nu-Trek.

And what about the Farragut having a female captain -- I guess Janice Lester ("Turnabout Intruder") didn't do her research on Star Fleet personnel very well. Either that or we have yet another SNW canon violation.

Anyhow, Paul Wesley as Kirk doesn't work for me -- Chris Pine and Vic Mignogna did Kirk better. But it's tough when you're trying to reimagine one of the most iconic fictional characters ever. Nothing will ever compare to the original.

Still, with all it's SNW flaws, this was an entertaining episode. I don't think these SNW writers know how to craft something truly intelligent -- but they can put on a good show if people turn off their brains.

But as an examination of Kirk's ambition and how he deals with it, I think it is merely OK. He realizes he made several mistakes, he is established as a risk-taker -- but he's also a bit unprofessional, which is more a function of this being SNW (talking about being bored, fantasizing excessively about being captain).

3 stars for "The Sehlat Who Ate Its Tail" -- Your typical SNW action/adventure, which is good on that dimension. You throw in some character analysis (which in this case could be better executed) and try to make the viewer think about a mystery or something and you likely have a something somewhat interesting. But I still wish this show could be better. It remains hard to take seriously.

An enjoyable episode.......but felt like it should have been a 2 partner as way to much was rushed.

They gave us plenty to nitpick as NuTrek always does: I'll go with the lens flare. My God, don't they know how much we hate that by now? It's like a strobe FY to the fans.

Anyway, when you put the nitpicks to the side, we just had the best episode of S3. I especially liked how every character had something meaningful to do.

At one point in S1, I thought SNW might surpass my old favorites: DS9, TNG and TOS. I am pretty sure they're simply incapable of reaching those heights, much less surpassing them, but SNW might end up being Voyager-level good if this is the new baseline.

This is good disposable entertainment: the kind where you can turn off your brain and just let the action wash over you. I didn't even mind (much) that every new Big Bad in Nu-Trek apparently has to be either gargantuan or of LEGENDARY status, only to be handily destroyed with a few well-placed photon torpedoes -- the same thing every other ship it swallowed would surely have tried when it opened its 'mouth' to engulf them. This is about as good as Nu-Trek gets: never great when measured against classic Trek, but perfectly fine on its own terms, which lean toward the safe, the conservative, and the mass-market crowd-pleasers aimed at the lowest common denominator.

The heart of the episode is Kirk's first real "moment of truth," a trial of command that forces him to navigate dangers, setbacks, and chances for growth. As a mini character arc, it works. Where it stumbles is in trying to double-dip, using that arc while also serving up nostalgia bait by assembling the "classic" crew in one place. For me, this fell flat. At no point did I feel like I was watching the Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Uhura, and Chapel I know and love, working together in that old TOS problem-solving rhythm. It's not a matter of them being too young or inexperienced as yet. It's that I've long since accepted these as entirely different characters -- faint echoes at best -- and so the absence of familiar dynamics doesn't even surprise me anymore. No amount of re-treaded scenarios or faux-nostalgic dialogue is going to suddenly make them feel like the originals.

The ending has stirred a lot of complaints, especially over the implications of the Big Reveal about their adversary. Questionable as it may be from a purely plot/logical standpoint, I think it works thematically. Kirk ends up unsure how to process the loss of 7,000 human lives caused by his command decisions. On one hand, you could say they brought it upon themselves as unequivocal aggressors. On the other, why should the fact that they were human make the loss sting more than the alien casualties that inevitably come with command? Pike's response is perfect: not urging Kirk to bury the discomfort, and not absolving him either. Instead, he insists Kirk sit with the unease: learn from it, let it shape his judgment, and keep questioning why "human" deaths feel heavier. That's exactly the kind of moral weight a Starfleet captain should carry into every encounter, no matter who's on the other side.

@Rahul:

And what about the Farragut having a female captain -- I guess Janice Lester ("Turnabout Intruder") didn't do her research on Star Fleet personnel very well. Either that or we have yet another SNW canon violation.

... *coughs in captain Marie Batel*...

@Mike
"@ The Queen:
Pelia is an old friend of God? Please.

Thought she said she was a roadie for the Dead. May have run into her from time to time during my Deadhead days."

She did say that, but she also said, "As an old friend of mine once said, Let there be light." I just thought that was a little much.

It would have been out of character, but altogether hilarious if Ortegas did indeed coordinate the thrusters with a "personal massager".

@The Queen:
'She did say that, but she also said, "As an old friend of mine once said, Let there be light." I just thought that was a little much.'

Agreed. It was a particularly silly line even for Pelia, for whom the writers think 'wise-cracking' is the same as 'wise'.

Also, if anyone was wondering about Pelia's palatial junk-filled quarters, they were clearly simply a hasty redress of Pike's for this episode. I did laugh at the insufferable narcissism of Pelia having a Warhol-Marilyn print of herself on the wall, though. Meant to be quirky but just comes across as tediously self-centred, the same way her every appearance always has Pelia talking about herself – even when she's about to be phasered she can still manage a quip about living to 5 000 years old!

Awful character.

With you Andy G on how TOS Kirk wasn’t always the paragon some folks here apparently remember.
As for the old phones being unlikely, I have an original stick rotary right now that’s about 95 years old.
And while the ever-insufferable Carol Kane continues playing an insufferable character for about the 20th time, she might have hung with J. Christ when the dude was hammering nails in old Palestine.

If the scavengers had all that advanced tech, including an FTL drive, why did they resort to piracy? They could have settled a planet or returned to Earth. We'll never know since this episode resolves its conflict in the usual nutrek fashion: with total violence. All 7000 scavengers are dead in space. How neat.

The dialogue in this episode was exceptionally cheesy, but the worst line was when Chapel said the Vulcan captain needed a "cranialectomy". So, she needed her skull removed?

@Rahul

Here is Janice Lester's statement: "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women." I've read several commentaries that interpret this quotation as pertaining to Kirk's own priorities. Several TOS characters mention that Kirk's love for the Enterprise supersedes his love for anything else, and Kirk himself says as much in "The Naked Time."

Even if we take Lester's comment literally--and Kirk's comment that if Lester weren't a woman she would have had a captaincy supports this reading as well--the canon-violation (star) ship already sailed long ago with Erika Hernandez in ENT.

@Moldorf @Norvo

Yes Batel, Hernandez from ENT, and now V'Rel are all female Star Fleet captains long before "Turnabout Intruder" -- but I don't think it's invalid or something to point out V'Rel as being one in regards to the final TOS episode here. Yes the canon violation ship sailed long ago, but why double-down (or triple-down) on it? For what purpose here? Does it affect how nu-Trek Kirk thinks about the captaincy? No.

As for Lester, I don't think you can boil her issue down to 1 statement -- I see it as a massive resentment about the glass ceiling. I don't think it's simply her interpretation of who Kirk thinks belongs in the captain's chair. Of course Lester was insane...

Fantastic episode. Loved it. The kind of Star Trek I like to watch. The twist at the end was great.

@rahul Star Trek canon is not a fixed thing but an ever evolving process with each iteration of series. It's not possible for this process to be a violated, as you put it. Whether you object to new additions to the series is entirely up to you, but think it's important to recognize that canon isn't a legal text but a generalized official guide.

@Matt G

I partly agree with your statement here. But in addition to viewing canon as a guide, I think it’s also important to see canon as a resource. A platform off of which a writer can build and strengthen the overall property. Think rogue one transforming the weakness of the silliness of the death star’s exhaust port flaw into a strength by having that flaw be an intentional act of rebellion, contrasted against Discovery taking a strength in the form of the character of Spock and turning it into a weakness by tacking on a random sister character. One creative use of canon reinforces the original work, the other exploits the past for no discernible purpose.

*gestures to Space Adventure Hour*
This is brilliant.
*turns to face The Sehlat Who Ate its Tail*
But I love this.

'Space Adventure Hour' is the NuTrek the writers and producers think 'the fans' want.

'The Sehlat Who Ate Its Tail' is the NuTrek the fans actually want.

@Matt G

It is absolutely possible to violate canon -- whether it is done outright or in spirit. While new Treks are created, they in turn create canon. Once certain events, narratives, facts etc. are established, then they really should not be changed. To do so would be sloppy on the Trek writer's part, and disappointing to the decades-long Trek fan who appreciates the backdrop created by prior series.

In terms of an outright canon violation -- for example, SNW, ENT should not knowingly come face-to-face with Romulans, per "Balance of Terror". So ENT got around this issue of wanting to use Romulans but without seeing them face-to-face. I wasn't a huge fan of this from ENT, but at least they didn't outright violate canon.

In terms of canon violations in spirit -- the whole Gorn thing on SNW is an example of that, although some (I think) might argue the violation is outright. How can Spock, Scotty in "Arena" not provide any significant intel on the Gorn given what they go thru in SNW? The Gorn were meant to be totally alien to TOS in "Arena". So this is an example of writers playing fast and loose with the Gorn because they just want a scary monstrous evil species for Pike & co. to deal with. To me, that's unacceptable.

@Earth Rider - a craniectomy is a decompression procedure where part of the skull is removed in order to allow a contused brain to recover from swelling without herniating. Incredibly complex neurosurgical procedure, which is well beyond the scope of practice and training of a nurse. In our era, even military emergency physicians will be loathe to perform it in theater and will try to evacuate the patient out of country to a hospital (e.g, Ramstien Air Base) to perform it.

That was pretty good! I really enjoyed it!

I have almost nothing else to say, except the usual "Paul Wesley is... fine." He's SNW's biggest casting whiff, and they haven't really made many of those. It's not that he's *bad*, he's just too bland. All previous Trek leads have Main Character Energy, and Wesley just *doesn't*. It's especially apparent in the scenes he shares with Anson Mount.

You could write this off as "Oh this is young Kirk, he hasn't fully realised the potential of his rizz yet", except Wesley is 42 and already older than Shatner in TOS. Martin Quinn has more X-factor that Wesley in their scenes here!

@Daniel thanks for the explanation!

"All previous Trek leads have Main Character Energy,"


I'm sorry, but Anson Mount has zero gravitas. Scott Bakula looks like George C. Scott in Patton compared to this guy. Your average McDonald's manager seems more like a leader than this version of Pike.

I do agree with you about the guy playing Kirk, but I don't think the people who watch this show care. None of the characters are like their old selves, but the show has a genuine Paramount approved "Trek" label and that's all that matters.

Two and a half stars. This has some intriguing bits with a shock reveal at the end but ultimately boils down to another “scary monster of the week” episode. It’s a trend I’ve disliked in Trek ever since TNG started making aliens into the “ugly rubber mask and cultural cliche of the week,” moving away with the Ferengi and other aliens from the fairly benign looking and intelligent humanoids in TOS.

Incidentally, Kirk’s commander on the Farragut in TOS was Captain Garrovick, whose ensign son provides a dramatic counterpoint in the excellent “Obsession” episode riffing on Moby Dick. Too bad SNW didn’t use this episode to tell the original story of that “white whale” killer cloud. That said, Marvel and DC have taught me to regard every franchise reboot as just another slice of the multiverse, so retconning the Farragut captain here doesn’t terribly bother me.

One disappointment with this episode for me is that it doesn’t give me enough M’Benga and Pelia, the two most engagingly acted roles in SNW. It could have built on their character work in earlier shows, especially M’Benga. Instead we get a story focusing on Kirk with a hearty portion of the woeful Ortegas, two of the worst characters in this corner of the TOS-era multiverse.

The Jim Carrey impersonator playing Kirk is just awful. No charisma. Why is SNW winding down a story anchored on him? Worse yet, the solid screen presence of Anton Mount as Pike on his side of this episode makes Kirk look even blander. Even the greatest script in the world would suck with this guy. I really miss Shatner and Pine.

The talky script here has a lot of words that don’t add up to much, especially during the mopey “Kirk’s first command” sequences that don’t feel as fitting for the character as Chris Pine’s energetic take. Based on the “how often do I feel distracted and check my phone” test, this episode lost me about 15 minutes in.

The shock reveal at the end, which my mind didn’t entirely digest during the “hushed mumbling in the briefing room” SNW trope that tried to explain it, felt more like the late American flag at the end of TNG’s “The Royale” than the majestic V’Ger reveal at the end of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. In other words, the concept had potential, but it was let down by pedestrian execution and poor screenwriting. Seriously, SNW “no-sells” big moments like no Trek series I’ve ever seen, quietly letting them pass without any serious attempt to wrestle with them. It’s just full of lazy writing and uncertain stylistic choices.

And as much as I like Carol Kane’s quirkiness, having Pelia sum up each episode’s briefing room conclusion like a solemn wisdom figure is getting old fast — it’s not fun or illuminating, it’s just obnoxious. I miss the zippy interplay and arguing of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, and similar pairings in later series. There’s just no dramatic tension here.

“It is possible to violate canon - outright or in spirit.” That is true, of course. That is the beginning of its inquiry, not its end. The question is whether a canon violation so results in a product that fails as entertainment.

The introduction of the Gorn as one-note space lizards seems a canon violation, in spirit if not “textually” (as in a character says or does something in Arena or an SNW Gorn-featuring episode that contradicts something else done or said in Arena or a Gorn-featuring episodeSNW

Opinions can of course differ as to whether the Gorn canon violation (1) is insulting to the fanbase, and/or (2) reveals ignorance on the part of the SNW creatives. I think, totality of the circumstances, that the retrofitting of the Gorn as murderous space reptiles is not a positive development. It doesn’t make one want to appreciate the efforts of responsible for making the show.


Not every canon violation is effrontery, though. To think that would be to mistake a characteristic with a virtue. Precise adherence continuity, down to the dot of the last i and cross of the last t, has no normative or positive value.

Example of “who cares” canon violation (spirit, perhaps, not textual): Khan “never forgetting a face.” Did this gaffe (Walter Koenig claims to have discovered it while giving the script a “Trekkie Run,”and also claims to have not mentioned the gaffe to the producers because if he did, he said, the Botany Bah plotline would have been assigned to another character. Harsh) ruin The Wrath of Khan? If that is your claim, how so? If you can’t make an argument without saying “because it violated continuity,” you don’t have much of an argument. Let’s say that Harve Bennett, when he screened all 79 TOS episodes before making TWOK, just didn’t bother to give Space Seed a brief re-airing before Khan’s line came to be. Sloppiness? Perhaps. Insulting to fans? I would say probably not.

Canon can also consist of moods, feelings, and atmosphere. TOS, to me, as ar least partially an effective realization of Roddenberry’s desire to have a “Hornnlower in Space.” Nicholas Meyer talked about liking this aspect of the show and he made damn sure to put it in the movie. This aspect of canon-which it can be argued is canon as much as dialogue is-seems to not be noticed by the canon-mongers (not accusing anyone here of being one). Two-dimensional thinking, anyone?

Not sure why Star Trek fans want to see their captain trashed - he is deeply bored, doesn't know the star date, questions the captain's orders, is indecisive in the face of danger. Doesn't know this risks of a landing party? On the other hand, are they no longer going to have landing parties? The episode forgets about this issue. All we know it was good that we ignored James T. Kirk because otherwise 'we would all be dead'. And his mother dog car whatever.

Oh that's right. This show thinks somehow this fortune cookie nonsense has something to do with the great D.C. Fontana's Yesteryear. My god this is so terrible. An embarrassment and insult to Star Trek.

@davidw

What an objectively idiotic paragraph you spent all that time typing out.

@Caloceptri

Personally, I wouldn’t rank the Chekov/Khan bit as a true canon violation at all. Rather it’s the sort of inter-canon writing trick that’s actually creatively sound, if not gracefully executed. First, it makes sense that Chekov would have been serving on the Enterprise during space seed. Second, it makes sense that a super brain like Khan would remember every photo or face he encountered, especially on the Enterprise. Third, Chekov and Khan don’t give the impression that they personally know each other, just that there’s a general recognition. Fourth, there’s never anything to contradict any of that head canon. Most importantly, accepting any of this doesn’t change or tarnish either of the characters in play, its biggest sin is running the risk of being nitpicked.

A few clunky moments but story wise and heart. Probably the best episode of Star Trek from the new era for me. Better than anything Discovery or Picard and even Lower Decks has managed.

A solid 4 for me.

Speaking on canon, I remember way back in undergraduate, I took a class on the history of religion. I wasn't and am not religious, but I wanted to gain some perspective from a scholarly standpoint. One of the major takeaways on analysis of The Bible from a source perspective (ancient Hebrew) was that the text seemed to repeat itself multiple times in overlapping ways and even had multiple, sometimes conflicting perspectives in recollecting the same canonical events.

Over the years, scholars (Jewish, Christian Catholic, Protestant, Muslim) argued whether this "artifact" was a cut-and-paste issue, or whether the discontinuities were intentional by the committee responsible for editing the texts. Translations cause a greater problem as many English translations of the sixth commandment say "thou shalt not kill", even though in Hebrew it's "thou shalt not murder". (Just that change of word has major moral implications) It's insane the kinds of threats to our liberties that are occurring resulting from interpretations from translations to a text that was assembled by fallible people, with different ideas and perspectives.

The point is, even canon that is arguably more held sacred in some circles has discontinuities and even internal conflicts of consistencies. This is only natural as these are common stories or retelling of historical events committed to text by a collection of writers. Roddenberry even lost total control of canon in his lifetime--being relegated to "consultant" after TMP. TNG writers bristled under his edict that there not be interpersonal conflict amongst Starfleet officers, and Majel Barrett was quoted at one point saying he would not have approved of DS9, even though decades on, it's taken its place as one of the most cherished series in Trek.

I'm not saying this so as to excuse all of the supposed violations of Star Trek canon, but to relax just a tiny bit. Star Trek to me is a kind of history of the future, streamed to our imaginations, and produced by people of whatever era the show is produced in, using whatever technology that is available to imagine future tech. These parables are brought to life by the actors of the era. We may individually love and prefer one interpretation of a character over another, but to say that all Kirks, even after Wesley and Pine must mirror Shatner is unrealistic. There will likely be others, and people after us will likely still be having debates as to which one was the best.

I thought this episode was good, maybe great other than pelicans even worse than normal holiness.

But man I can not for the life of me understand how everyone else didn’t find the reveal stupid and unbelievable at the end. This colony ship from pre warp times went off into space and eventually developed gravity weapons on a ship bigger than anything else Starfleet has encountered and… warpppppp speed. Really? Just a completely unnecessary hollow backstory to try to make a moral quandary more of a quandary than it might still be. Gross.

All of the questions about canonicity would never arise if modern Trek didn't insist on using TOS as a crutch. They have got an entire universe to play with, but insist on (haphazardly) tying themselves to the original series.

If you aren't going to write the characters in character wouldn't you be better off creating new characters without any preconceptions or backstory? If you have great new stories to tell why would you tie your hands that way?

What modern Trek reminds me of is some conglomerate that buys a smaller company that has a good reputation solely for their brand and immediately starts churning out an inferior product under the old banner. They only want to bleed the "name" for all it's worth.

@Sarjenka's Brother

At one point in S1, I thought SNW might surpass my old favorites: DS9, TNG and TOS. I am pretty sure they're simply incapable of reaching those heights, much less surpassing them, but SNW might end up being Voyager-level good if this is the new baseline

Interesting paragraph. As for myself, never any kind of realistic expectation that that was even a remote possibility. TOS, TNG, DS9 are classics within the Star Trek universe made at a time & place at a creative zenith. My guess is I’ll never live to see such a creative peak in the Star Trek universe again. NuTrek simply doesn’t have that kind of talent.

Having said that and having been thoroughly disappointed with all other NuTrek efforts, SNW hit the sweet spot for me. Good to sometimes great entertainment.

I’m old enough to have actually seen TOS when it was first broadcast. Then there was the huge syndication goldmine where I must have seen every TOS episode over a dozen times. TNG after a so so start became a classic. DS9. Classic episodes seen many times. Both series have been re watched in its entirety (every episode) several times.

I can do that with SNW. In other words, there’s finally a Star Trek show that I actually have a desire to look at again. It has such a great cast of characters.I can rewatch many of the episode outside the few obvious inevitable stinkers. In fact, I’ve already done this with SNW several times for the first two seasons. Throughly enjoyable despite the many obvious flaws with most of the episodes.

Unfortunately, Season 3 with the Gorn, lightweight silly episodes, and the incessant romantic focus did not connect with me. This episode did. Loved it. They hit it out of the park. It’s one I ‘ll be seeing more of in the future.

@counterlogic sorry but who is pelicans and what did you mean by his holiness? Was there a typo there or nickname for someone I don't get?

@Jammer

Great review, glad to see you loved this one as much as most of the rest of the fan base does. It's a pretty darn great episode.

Re Pelia having enough cable to hook up all the phones, she mentions having the crew strip copper wiring from the ship. So that's what they used.

The idea that canon suggests we shouldn't have women as captains in this time frame because it violates the idea that Lester in "Turnabout Intruder" was the first, is the wrong way of looking at canon. Some "canon" should be willfully thrown away because it just doesn't make any sense. It was stupid in 1969 and is orders of magnitude more stupid now. It's one of those things you just pretend didn't happen and move on.

Nothing much to say about this slop, except I clearly found it less entertaining than most of the people here. It had way too many plot holes to even bother reviewing.


@Daniel
Fri, Aug 15, 2025, 2:30pm (UTC -5)
"@Earth Rider - a craniectomy is a decompression procedure where part of the skull is removed in order to allow a contused brain to recover from swelling without herniating. Incredibly complex neurosurgical procedure, which is well beyond the scope of practice and training of a nurse. In our era, even military emergency physicians will be loathe to perform it in theater and will try to evacuate the patient out of country to a hospital (e.g, Ramstien Air Base) to perform it."


I'll just leave this here:

Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home
McCoy: [1:24:46] "Tearing of the middle meningeal artery..."
Doctor #1: "What's your degree in, dentistry?"
McCoy: "How do YOU explain slowing pulse, low respiratory rate and coma?"
Doctor #1: "Fundascopic examination!"
McCoy: "Fundascopic examination is unrevealing in these cases!"
Doctor #1: "A simple evacuation of the epidural hematoma will relieve the pressure!"
McCoy: "My God man, drilling holes in his head is not the answer! The artery must be repaired! Now, put away your butcher's knives and let me save this patient before it's too late!"

Thank you Jammer for an outstanding review, and your even more outstanding comment on canon above in the comments. That pathetically costumed Gorn in "Arena" should have never existed to begin with, one of the most asinine fight scenes in the history of television. I have no quarrels with throwing *that* particular hour of canon away. SNW, on the other hand, has made great use of the Gorn, and it would be the case whether "Arena" ever aired or not.

This was the best episode of SNW since its first season, and this is not to say that S2 didn't have good ones. I am also growing fond of Paul Wesley. I didn't grow up in the TOS times, my first intro to Trek was with Enterprise in 2002, and then the 2009 movie before I began binging on all Trek shows. I'd rank DS9, Voyager, and SNW as my favorite series and First Contact and Star Trek 4 as my favorite Trek films at the moment. Interestingly, I did not enjoy Enterprise as much in my second viewing although it was my entry as I said earlier. And TOS is certainly in the bottom tier of my favorite Trek series and find Shatner's acting inconsistent and awfullly dramatic to the point of sopa-opera worthy (it gets even worse in action scenes, his expressions in his fight scene with Spock and the ridiculous Gorn-costume dude are laughable at best. I'd personally prefer watching Pine or Wesley act as Kirk anytime rather than Shatner (I prefer Mount over Greenwood or Hunter however). I guess one's taste in Trek sometimes depends on what they grow up with or their timing of becoming a Trek fan.

I'm surprised so many people seem to like this episode. I thought it was one of the worst of the show so far.

The TOS fan service is getting out of control. SNW has such a great regular cast and characters, and I watch the show for them, not worse versions of characters I saw 60 years ago. I wish the writers would realize Paul Wesley just doesn't come across as Kirk and to stop trying to force it.

Also, the show tried to play the reveal at the end as bittersweet or tragic, but I don't see why. Those scavengers were clearly aggressors. Humans can be evil. I don't know why Kirk would be surprised by that. There's an implicit assumption that Kirk would value human lives over other aliens, and that sometimes it would have been less tragic if they were Vulcans or Andorran's. Maybe that's the case (especially given his speciesism in Undiscovered Country), but I don't think the writers really thought this through and undermines Trek's traditional message of IDIC.

"That pathetically costumed Gorn in "Arena" should have never existed to begin with"

So why in the hell are they dragging it back into the new show? Why dredge up past continuity that isn't any good if you are going to go in a totally different direction anyway? Since the two versions of Gorn are nothing alike why not just give the new version a different name and get some credit for originality?

It's like DS9 saying Kai Winn is the daughter of the Gorgon from And the Children Shall Lead or something. It's both pointless and stupid.

"sorry but who is pelicans and what did you mean by his holiness?"


My guess: "other than Pella's even worse than normal hokeyness."

@ The Queen:

To help alleviate your misgivings about Pelia (though I have many). I am pretty sure she was referring to Thomas Edison and not God. Edison was rumoured to have said “Let there be light” during the invention of the light bulb.

Or she meant God, her character is so annoying!

@Brandon:
‘Whenever prequel shows or films handle iconic characters, they always have to retcon-deconstruct them into basically the opposite character traits of what we originally knew about them.’

This is very perceptive, and entirely correct, which leads us to the following:

@Black Oat:
‘None of the characters are like their old selves, but the show has a genuine Paramount approved "Trek" label and that's all that matters.’

Exactly. There’s a curious dissonance, which touches upon the canon discussion elsewhere above, in how NuTrek uses and abuses continuity, constantly justifying its own existence via memberberries and callbacks while at the same time having us insist to one another that that very same continuity shouldn’t (indeed, can’t) matter, and that we need to just shut up and uncritically consume for the sake of everyone’s contentedness.

As @Brandon suggests, however, this gaslighting peaks into sharp relief when every character is essentially the opposite of what they should be at this point in time, and we’re left to scramble to explain why that is. So you have posters telling themselves that they see flickers of Shatner in Wesley, which is absurd. Likewise with Quinn and Doohan, or Gooding and Nichols. They’re nothing whatsoever alike. And that’s before we try and square the circle of specific events that shouldn’t and couldn’t have happened in the series.

The only way to reconcile all this is to accept SNW as a show that is inspired by but not beholden to anything that preceded it in broadcast time. The cast performances make this relatively easy, I think, because the cast among the best ever assembled for Trek, so you can simply watch and enjoy actors and actresses doing what they’re good at (this episode is an excellent example of that). They work hard with often mediocre and maddening scripts, so all credit to them. And yes, I actually genuinely enjoy SNW most of the time. Not the way I enjoyed TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY, or even ENT, of course, but enjoy it I do.

@Trek fan:
‘In other words, the concept had potential, but it was let down by pedestrian execution and poor screenwriting.’

Earlier in this thread, high on my first ever SNW re-watch, I rashly stated that this episode couldn’t be improved. That was rather silly of me. Upon reflection, it is clear that there are several points that could have been improved: a) the sudden and total destruction of the ‘advanced’ scavenger ship needed better explanation (I believe the Farragut’s nacelles disabled its shields, but that isn’t immediately apparent); b) the whole ‘they were the best of us’ scene is mawkish and, while it sets up the interesting proposal of ‘primitive’ humans being corrupted by their trek through the stars – a sort of ‘anti-Trek’, if you like – would it not have been more coherent if the crew in fact originated in the kind of dystopian amorality we saw in the court scenes in ‘Encounter at Farpoint’?; and c) the scene between NuKirk and Pike, as @Dom points out, has NuKirk shaken specifically because it is human life that is lost, and we are left to wonder what NuKirk’s emotional state would have been had the dead been truly alien. One can of course argue that that is the point, but it sits very uneasily. So how would Hemmer (RIP) have reacted if there were 7 000 wayward Andorians dead at the hands of NuKirk? Or Spock if there were 7 000 errant Vulcan dead? The scene invites more questions than it answers.

Another albeit minor problem is that the scavenger ship is stated to be far more advanced than anything in the Federation at the start of the episode and ends up being considerably less advanced by the end of the episode.

@Latex Zebra:
‘Better than anything Discovery or Picard and even Lower Decks has managed.’

Disagree about Lower Decks. ‘wej Duj’ (alongside ‘Those Old Scientists’ and this episode) is the very best NuTrek has produced, and is quintessential Trek generally.

@Black Oat:
‘If you aren't going to write the characters in character wouldn't you be better off creating new characters without any preconceptions or backstory? If you have great new stories to tell why would you tie your hands that way?’

I’ve mentioned in previous threads how what we know about who survives to TOS severely hampers SNW. It would have made much more sense to have made Ortegas rather than M’Benga the main protagonist in the Dak’Rah episodes, for example. Likewise, there was no need at all – apart from memberberries – to link La’an to Khan. In ‘Ghosts of Illyria’ it’s made very clear that La’an has hatred of genetic engineering because of childhood bullying – she even upends her own friendship with Una because of it – but it plays no part in the rest of the series apart from another memberberry in ‘Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow’.

@Jammer (and others):
I always took the line in ‘Turnabout Intruder’ to be a barb against Kirk specifically, essentially calling him a misogynist. Far more troubling to me is Pike’s unfortunate line in ‘The Cage’ about never getting used to having a woman on the bridge (to which Number One responds with fret, understandably concerned that it must be a dig at her).

@Heidi’s St. Bernard:
‘That pathetically costumed Gorn in "Arena" should have never existed to begin with, one of the most asinine fight scenes in the history of television.’

Mmm, bait! I disagree, of course. I loved the ‘rubber suit’ when I first saw it – because in the olden days we used our imaginations. I didn’t think the bridge was made of balsawood and cardboard either. It was only ‘Trials and Tribble-ations’ and ‘Relics’ that set the ill-advised precedent that such a thing as absolute visual continuity existed in Trek. (And no, I am not exercised by any of it to any great degree.)

We can of course make any number of excuses why the Gorn in 'Arena' doesn't look like a xenomorph (or more to the point why the Gorn in SNW don't lumber about in rubber suits), and some bold posters here have already placed bets that the Batel arc will offer an explanation for the discrepancy (I don't think it will). But the bigger issue than the visuals is how come Kirk doesn't know anything about the Gorn in 'Arena' (or Khan in 'Space Seed') despite NuKirk's very firsthand experiences.

@Michael Hazelwood:
Thank you for the clarification. That certainly makes much more sense.

@Black Øst:
'Since the two versions of Gorn are nothing alike why not just give the new version a different name and get some credit for originality?'

Most of the continuity blunders in NuTrek could have been avoided by them simply using different names (see La'an in my post directly above).

Again, the blunder itself is virtually always caused by the powers that be insisting on using existing elements to 'create interest' that would be there anyway since we're all already watching the show. It's unnecessary.

I didn't/haven't read all of the comments (how many are there?), but doesn't this episode eerily seems like we were "introduced" to the---"Borg"?? Didn't/doesn't the Borg have the same mindset--to conquer all--with almost the same type of crew--"humans" (of some sort?)

I also agree with the comment about this episode being almost entirely devoid of any romantic or sexual tension? To me, that is what, in my mind, doomed "Discovery". When Captain Burnam and Book(man) became romantically involved, the series/show took a HUGE nosedive. There should NEVER be a romantic interest for the Captain of a Starship. The "ship and crew" should be his/her first and only love.

Fantastic episode. Definitely had the feel of old Trek.

I think we just need to accept that we’ll never get Shatner back as Kirk. That being said, while I don’t hate Chris Pike, I think Paul Westley nails it here.

“Rousing speeches are not exactly my forte…” yeah right. :-p

Loved how Spock, again and again throughout the episode, reminds everyone that Kirk is the one in command, and is therefore the one calling the shots. On top of that, he effortlessly sips into the role of acting First Officer. Brilliant.

I’ve always loved the original series score, and when Kirk says “I pick neither option” the music cue sounded like a direct lift from TOS.

@MercerCreate
“But having CHAPEL doubt Kirk at a crucial moment when he is taking command really bugged me.. she is an ensign at best.”

She wasn’t doubting him, if anyone was it was Scotty. She just responded with what the protocol would be if removing him from command should it become necessary.

@Bok R'Mor
Regarding Scotty’s ‘Thank you, sir – I needed to hear that.’ While I wasn’t crazy about the line, it kind of makes sense if you look back to his experience with the Sundiver. This is a guy who was the lone survivor of a lost ship and crew. He’s just found another one to latch on to. It may be unprofessional, but I can chalk it up to emotions running high.

@Daniel
Absolutely agree on the Atari 2600-style joysticks.

Loved how the crew, used to Pike’s command style of requesting options, went straight into that mode, but then hit a wall because Kirk is different. He manages to sort himself out, and in the end, we have a great scene between Pike and Kirk, with Pike imparting wisdom. I can’t help but feel this is almost a foreshadowing of “Balance of Terror” – yes, you will encounter enemies out there, but maybe there is value is looking past what you think they are (as Stiles did) and feel empathy, even if your job is to stop them.

@Rahul
Agree with all your points re: canon. The use of the Gorn in SNW really doesn’t make sense to me. They could have made them some kind of new/unknown insectoid species, and the whole thing would have worked like a charm. Would have also given us a new and SNW-specific antagonist species, just like the Borg were for TNG.

Some question how a pre-warp ship might have traveled so far and become so powerful. I’m really at a loss here considering there are countless examples already -- throughout several Trek shows -- of ships and probes from the pre-warp era who are encountered again centuries later, in places where sub-light engines could never take them (the Botany Bay, the NASA ships in TNG’s “The Royale” and Voyager’s “One Small Step”).

Then we have the probes that presumably encountered advanced alien civilizations and returned in far more powerful incarnations (Nomad and V’ger anyone?). I think there’s even a line in some Trek novel about how there seems to be tons of spatial anomalies that appear inside and outside our Solar System, ready to transport pre-warp ships to other corners of the Galaxy. Based on previous Trek canon, I can't see how anyone has a problem accepting that plot point.

The scavengers become what will later be called The Borg. This ship was destroyed. There are probably others.

It all makes sense.

They steal tech. Like the Borg.
Tech advanced beyond Federation. Like Borg.
Great shields. Like the Borg.
No respect for life. Again, Borg.

Assimilation of people will come later as their tech advances. Do they now have a hive mind? Unknown.

In all of ST, have we ever been told the origin of the Borg? If not, I believe this is it.

@Raised Vulcan Eyebrow:
'Some question how a pre-warp ship might have traveled so far and become so powerful. I’m really at a loss here considering there are countless examples already -- throughout several Trek shows -- of ships and probes from the pre-warp era who are encountered again centuries later, in places where sub-light engines could never take them (the Botany Bay, the NASA ships in TNG’s “The Royale” and Voyager’s “One Small Step”).'

I agree. This particular criticism is baseless. It's more than explained in-universe, within this episode in fact, by the scavengers continuously stealing more and more technology from other races. And we saw in ENT how quickly humans in interstellar space turn to thieves when they need warp coils.

Add to that phenomena like the warp eddies between Bajor and Cardassia in DS9 (just one example of many) and it's firmly established that even sub-light ships can end up far from home.

They don't steal technology, they take it by force. How did they manage to do that in a defenseless, sublight ship, and why does it look like a giant He-Man toy? Star Trek used to humor questions like that.

Presumably initially by guile. Trek has repeatedly shown that a technologically superior opponent can always be beaten by dogged human ingenuity. It's a staple of the series.

Likewise, it's hardly a stretch that accumulating more and more technology would have made each new attack easier and easier to do, thereby acquiring more tech, and so on and so on.

The Paramount Global and Skydance merger has some news directly affecting the fate of the Star Trek franchise.

It seems Star Trek movies with theatrical releases are on the horizon. Straight streaming movies like Section 31 are dead with the emphasis being on theatrical releases.

David Ellison, the man in charge with all his baggage, is a Star Trek fan. So the upshot is much more Star Trek content is on its way. Lots of reviews for Jammer on the horizon.

One show being proposed is something called Year One (SNW 6th season? ) showing Kirk’s first year in command of the Enterprise.

Not sure how I feel about it personally. If they’re able to consistently make episodes like this, I’m on board. I have strong doubts. What will be interesting, will be the fate of Alex Kurtzman with his contract about ready to expire. Does he stay or do they bring in somebody new? Time will tell,

Then who did they rob all that advanced technology from? Which race in that sector had advanced personal shields, powerful jammers, tractor beams that can destroy a planet, etc. It definitely wasn't the Klingons.

The weakest part of the episode for me was the scene in Kirk's quarters. Kirk is on the verge of having a mental breakdown because his choices have lead them to the verge of destruction. Spock's advice is to keep doing what he's doing by relying on his human intuition (SPOCK says this), and it works! Turns out all Kirk needed was for someone to gas him up. This is Discovery grade writing, where the main obstacle for a character to overcome is simply a lack of self-confidence. Kirk could have gotten the same advice from ChatGPT.

My last post was a reply to Bok R'Mor.

@Earth Rider:
'Then who did they rob all that advanced technology from? Which race in that sector had advanced personal shields, powerful jammers, tractor beams that can destroy a planet, etc. It definitely wasn't the Klingons.'

The episode states that the scavenger ship has been moving around a wide area on the edge of known space, attacking various species' (newly-established?) outer colonies opportunistically.

At the same time, the scavenger ship has also acquired the power to strip mine/wipe out whole planets if it so chooses.

It stands to reason that the scavenger ship was also in contact with – and possibly destroyed – species (and thus technology levels) that the rest of known space had never heard of. Bit by bit, species by species.

I am by no means a defender of NuTrek and I will always criticise its typical shoddy writing when doing so is called for. But here I think the writers, for once, have actually *not* fouled up.

I'm surprised by the outpouring of positivity for this episode as well. I cringed when Kirk ran away from the bridge and of course Spock would be the one to talk him down from the ledge...since we know already that he becomes the first officer.

And that, in a nutshell, is the problem with this show. There is entirely too much Kirk/TOS fan service/retcon/origin story, and it really takes away from THIS crew.

I'm currently watching Andor and loving what that show did with the Star Wars universe. I wish somebody would create a show like that for ours here.

"In all of ST, have we ever been told the origin of the Borg?"


There is a trilogy of Trek novels called "Destiny" that reveals their origin. I haven't watched this episode, but it doesn't sound anything like the novels.

Why I mention this is that modern Trek has borrowed some elements from the novels, including from David Mack, the author of the Destiny trilogy.

@Mile

"One show being proposed is something called Year One (SNW 6th season? ) showing Kirk’s first year in command of the Enterprise."

Geez, I do not want another anything TOS era related..
This recycling is annoying and boring and made by people who have no inspiration or any kind of vision except for milking Kirk and Spock, again and again and again...

I liked this episode a lot, but it was the only SNW "Kirk" episode I liked, not only because the actor is a horrible choice for Kirk, but because he shouldn't be in this show, except maybe for the very last episode.
Strange New World my big Greek bum, this is another "lets explore more Spock and Kirk " thing.
I do not want more of Spock and Kirk. They are great as they were left of in TOS and its movies.
Enough already.

The same franchise made the bold step to move on with TNG and that was a risk that paid off. And gave us DS9 and VOY. And Lower Decks.
But not, lets go back again with Enterprise and Disco and SNW.. and the same things recycled again and again. Have mercy on us.

I do not care about Year one or two or three or whatever with a Kirk played by this actor, but most importantly written by these same people who are not even capable of writing something good for the fine crew of SWN.

There is no vision for a future of the franchise, no love.
Just "milk the fans as long as they are still alive, give them more Kirk, more Spock." Oh, I can see the NEW TNG coming.
This is exhausting.

@theBgt:
Well said. Completely agree.

I just don't see why this episode merits such a good review

@Daniel well put!

Are we officially in an alternate timeline? Didnt Lower Decks say Discovery was a parallel timeline? And therefore SNW is also a parallel timeline?

/- Spock's joke about demoting Kirk at the first opportunity was a foreshadowing of their little humorous moments at the end of so many TOS episodes. Was this one of your "occasions"?/

Yes, this was when I laughed once.
I will need to rewatch for the 2nd occasion.

I liked this one, but not quite as much as Jammer. I thought it was an engaging hour, but not at classic level. A few thoughts:

Kirk bothered me because every time he turned to the side he looked like Chekov. Very distracting. And as others have said, we have our own great crew on SNW and we don't NEED these snippets of other characters from TOS or other shows. I am dreading McCoy showing up . . . ugh.

Pike's hair is getting out of control.

I loved Pelia and her phones. I carried around my family's phone from 1975 for decades (It was an avocado rotary dial) so I can believe Pelia would hang on to things. I would have kept it forever except I had to move suddenly one time and couldn't justify packing it. The way the phones allowed them to communicate was very clever. I loved Ortegas giving them direction on how much thrust to implement. Damn right she flies the ship!

I was reminded of the Equinox crew from Voyager when we found out the terror ship crew were all human. The Equinox crew threw all their Star Trek values out the window within a few years of being lost in space--if it had gone on for centuries I can imagine them becoming as ruthless as the monster crew. Scarcity and hopelessness can lead to the degradation of our humanity.

On the other hand, the technology they developed along the way did not seem realistic to me. In two centuries? I didn't quite buy it. I also had trouble seeing the ship--it was very dark and it just looked like a collection of debris. I don't think it was presented very well, but I enjoyed how they destroyed it.

Overall, I'd give it 2.5 -- take Kirk out of the mix and it could go up to 3. Solid hour.

@Bok R'Mor thanks for quoting my comments about pedestrian execution. The reasons I struggle to stay awake in episodes like this one include:

1. Pedestrian acting (Jim Carrey-Kirk sucks, period),

2. Pedestrian plotting (ie the big bad here is impossibly advanced and yet easily defeated when the plot requires), and

3. Pedestrian attempts to discuss big stuff (ie the dramatically inert scene of Spock advising Kirk; the implausible reveal of human monsters without any coherent motive for being monsters, etc.)

@Dom @counterlogic ditto to both of you.

@Jammer how can you give this one 3 1/2 stars after pointing out the undercooked climax? Underdeveloped, rushed endings are SNW’s forte. What’s especially frustrating about this episode is that it inches closer to explaining the monster of the week than earlier stories this season, but doesn’t actually explain the biggest question: How did these humans develop so much tech and become so inhuman?

The convenient absence of any survivors to tell their side of this story reflects the continued decline of storytelling since TOS and TNG; it prevents us from hearing them in their own voices and thus having something substantive to think about for once.

That and the perennial wrongness of Paul Wesley as Kirk — which Jammer also acknowledges — makes it impossible for me to go higher than 2.5 stars here. Roddenberry’s Kirk at this stage of his life was a tough minded cadet and self assured / fearless young officer, not this indecisive and lightweight mope. I really wanted to like SNW, but it keeps letting me down hard.

Just ask yourself, how would this episode have played with just Pike’s crew encountering the Scavengers? I suspect it would have been better anchored dramatically by stronger actors and allowed more time for an encounter with the alien/human foes as people to be respected, not glossed over. There was no need for James T. Carrey in this episode; he just sucks all the oxygen out of the room. But SNW has a habit of cramming 2-3 characters too many into each hour, so it fits.

Good to see the 3-dimensional chess in use again - such a unique Trek artefact, that would save the day in TOS' future space adventures.
But I do concur with Jammer's view that SNW's skinny Kirk really cannot fill Shatner's big shoes: for a start his demeanor strikes me as more & more like Steve McGarrett in original Hawaii 5-0 series - the straight guy, serious/ earnest manners, never ever straying from the righteous path.

I know, I know. Emotional manipulation. Convenient Foreshadowing. Contrived plot. But I lived it!Great Trek episode!

*loved"
*@#!*#@ tiny phone keypad, autocorrect piece of junk

@Jammer: "This is the best episode of the season so far by a significant margin."

I agree, which is why I find it so strange that this was the first episode they didn't include among the five they gave TV criticsto watch before the season started. I can only hope that it was because this episode just wasn't ready yet when the season started, because if they thought this one should be hidden from critics it's a very bad sign.

Although, speaking of bad signs, on Bald Move the two main guys are longtime Star Trek fans but their young producer, who teams up with them on episodes relating to Trek including a series they did earlier this year covering several episodes of TOS season one, had only seen SNW before starting that podcast series with them. She already loved SNW but was not generally a fan of TOS; when it came to reviewing this episode, the two guys were over the moon for it like many of us here, but she thought it was the worst episode of the season! If she represents the nuFan of nuTrek, this kind of episode may not be all that well received. There are several comments here who don't like it either, to my surprise.

@Rahul "Paul Wesley as Kirk doesn't work for me -- Chris Pine and Vic Mignogna did Kirk better."

I somewhat agree. I think Wesley is overly concerned about doing a Shatner impression. He should just actually try Shatnering it up a little bit.

On this general subject, if (as appears likely) the technology is up to it pretty soon, how would you guys feel about using AI to create young versions of the TOS crew again on screen?

"On this general subject, if (as appears likely) the technology is up to it pretty soon, how would you guys feel about using AI to create young versions of the TOS crew again on screen?"

I'd rather see....uh... new characters

"On this general subject, if (as appears likely) the technology is up to it pretty soon, how would you guys feel about using AI to create young versions of the TOS crew again on screen?"

No, no and no.
1) ENOUGH WITH MILKING TOS
2) Replace actors with their AI version? It is creepy and well it is not acting it is code simulating/mimicking acting. Wtf is the point then?
I guess at one point this will be a thing in general, offering customized scenarios on demand to please fantasies. Still creepy and also unethical cause, especially in case of dead actors, no one would had asked their permission.

Lots of great discussion here... I haven't seen this much chatter in quite a while.

Canon... TOS didn't follow its own canon... so right out of the trek gate, it wasn't that important.

Loved this episode, minus one small gripe.

All the talk about "the chair"..."pressure", blah, blah... I guess I shouldn't expect change from the same group that gave us Discovery. Please show me the drama; I don't need to hear it preached to me.

Interesting twist... I wasn't expecting that.

BTW, you only need 2 strands of wire for a comm circuit.

3.5 stars from me.

It's incredible the level of pass people are giving an episode with this much accumulated stupidity lining the screenplay like plaque on a homeless man's soon to be missing teeth.

We have a character carrying around enough centuries outdated telephone cable to wire up numerous locations across a vessel that's several football fields in size in a jiffy! Oh, wait, my bad! The ship just happens to have the needed length of copper cables with an impedance that matches twisted pair phone lines from a nearly few centuries old technology. This is quite literally just as retarded than the finale of Picard that converted a Borg Cube into a starship parking structure complete with entrance and exit ramps with the only thing missing being the toll operator.

This is demonstrably terrible writing with demonstrable plot holes and the only thing that excuses it here, I suspect, is the same thing that openly excused it in Picard, nostalgia. People marvel at old style phones and reoccurring 20th century references, I guess.

It's absurd in the extreme. It makes zero sense. Neither did the rest of the episode. When the ship first engages the Franken Dutchman it's invulnerable to their weapons. I say to myself, "Wait... what's the scale of that planet compared to the ship? Aren't they far enough away to move or go to warp AS WE'VE SEEN before in Star Trek? Wait... why doesn't the Enterprise just tractor beam the Farragut and tow it to a safe location? Don't they see that whatever JUST destroyed the planet might still pose a threat? Wait... how did something that big sneak up on them? Can't they detect ships moving through or popping in and out of warp? (The Farragut actually does this later!) Wait... where are the evasive maneuvers? How did they get captured that easily? Wait... I didn't see them fire the torpedoes? If it's invulnerable to phasers, why not immediately try the torpedoes? In fact, wouldn't they just shout, 'FIRE EVERYTHING,' like that Romulan dude who saw something similarly ridiculous coming at him? Wait... did they scan for life signs? Wait... can't they repair tissues without opening the skull, like they did in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home?"

Nobody tried scanning for life signs when they knew the ship was being penetrated and that toxic gas was flooding the section. My first thought was "Are they being boarded?" Sure, the internal sensors may have been down or compromised. However, they were literally using a tricorder to assess the level of enemy penetration into ship systems right before they were discovered by the intruders. I actually said to myself, "Why isn't anyone scanning for life signs?", right before the infiltrators walk around the damned corner!

First the Franken Dutchman is indestructible, but then the magically forgotten about photon torpedoes save the day. But before that, Kirk & Company have absolutely no plan for how to disable the invincible under the heavens Franken Dutchman. But WAIT! Scratch that! They disable the previously indestructible ship by banging the side of the Franken Dutchman with the warp nacelles? Did anyone hear the explanation for why that was suddenly effective? Couldn't the Enterprise have done that with some well placed photon torpedoes before they got kidnapped?

I could go on, but given just the number of WTFs off the top of my head in the first ten minutes of the episode, I'm just not in the mood for a Great Wall of Text today.

If Uhura was able to get "line of sight" communications to work with the Enterprise, why didn't they attempt to hail the enemy ship?

A big part of the problem with this show focusing so much on the TOS crew now is that SNW, like much of modern Star Trek, is just a show "about Star Trek," as opposed to about something more meaningful. TOS was a show about ideas, social commentary, science fiction premises, ethical dilemmas. Far too much of modern Trek is recontextualizing or reinterpreting the fictional history of Star Trek in ways that aren't interesting or necessary.

It's stunning how many people watch a show that they publicly detest. Honestly, I pity you that your life is reduced to hate watching and anonymous commentary on some site.

"so right out of the trek gate, it wasn't that important."

As Harry Hearer once said, "Don't punish your audience for paying attention."


Trek fans aren't the ones insisting that Nu-Trek keeps insisting on dredging up old, better episodes. It's the writers doing that to themselves. And, more importantly, I guarantee you that 99 percent of the complaints would disappear if the shows actually wrote good stories around these ideas even if they contradicted some things.

Trek fans will forgive anything. There is almost no level of bad writing that can't be overcome with eternal optimism and insane levels of head canon. And those are two things that the fan base has in spades. You really have to be a shit writer for Trekkies to abandon you.

*Harry Shearer* of course.

FINALLY!!! Really liked this episode. 4 stars!

Reading through the comments, I'm struck by the naysayers who can't seem to find something positive about this relatively excellent episode. Why are you guys still watching at this point?

Also, as an Andor fan, I've been interested to watch the various comments about Andor on other discussions. I think mine is the first Andor comment on this discussion which means most have been pretty happy about this episode!

@Lothar

“It's stunning how many people watch a show that they publicly detest. Honestly, I pity you that your life is reduced to hate watching and anonymous commentary on some site.”

@The Wrong Wong

“Reading through the comments, I'm struck by the naysayers who can't seem to find something positive about this relatively excellent episode. Why are you guys still watching at this point”

I, too, have been struck by the relentless negativity and hate directed at the show by some who post here after every episode. While the show is not perfect by any measurable means, with obvious flaws in its scripts, lack of originality in exploring strange new worlds, and its heavy reliance on gimmick episodes, it’s still (at least in my estimation) a highly entertaining show with a stellar cast. One can nitpick anything to death. This was an excellent episode (4 stars ?) on a weak third season after two very solid and highly successful seasons (in my estimation).

The internet does seem to be a warm home to negativity and hate. With hate being one of the most powerful of all human emotions, feelings. Permanently residing in human nature. If one examines history, it’s always there and almost always wins - like it is today. Many long for the times when it’s not winning.

On another note. Andor. It’s a miracle that it exist at all. Was excited after the first season. Stunned after the second season. What a show to address such awful times we have the misfortune to live in.

It's just a garbage show. The sooner the people who "hate watch" modern Trek stop giving money to Paramount the sooner we can move on to, hopefully, smarter Trek.

Endless complaining about complaining and trying to emotionally blackmail other fans into not criticising NuTrek will definitely shut those pesky 'hate-watchers' up, 100 per cent.

...fascinating.

By the way, the consensus was that this episode was brilliant. Not sure how the toxic lovers of NuTrek square that with all this supposed hate and negativity that constantly gets them down.

@Bok R’Mor

Not sure what you’re responding to but it sure isn’t anything that I wrote. In my first paragraph, I was agreeing with others on why would people who profess to hate SNW or profess to hate any other program for that matter, with the endless number of options available to them, continue to look at such program on a weekly basis. Seems to me to be a legitimate question. From there, to each their own on what the true nature on what the answer may be to that question. By the way, from my own individual perspective, if I don’t like something I don’t continue to look at it. SNW is the only NuTrek that I have actually liked. Again that’s me. Others may have a different perspective.

The second paragraph is not talking about NUTrek or SNW but is talking about the general historical concept of hate (in American history you know the stuff that led to the eradication of Native Americans, slavery, the Chinese expulsion Act, Jim Crow laws, segregation, McCarthyism- the list goes on and on but you can get the idea). Yeah the return of that kind of hate, cruelty, and oppression does kind of get me down. No in the second paragraph I’m not talking about NuTrek.

The third paragraph is talking about a series called Andor. So of the three paragraphs written only one deals with SNW or NuTrek and, in that paragraph, I described the third season as weak , and though I find the series overall to be entertaining, listed some problems I’ve found (yes criticism of SNW). So again not sure what you’re responding to but it doesn’t appear to be of anything that I actually wrote.

@Mike
My comment wasn't directed at you or your post specifically, just a general observation, so you're entirely correct that it sure wasn't anything you wrote.

I haven't read your response yet, but just wanted to reassure you since you took significant time and effort to write what seems to be a detailed defence and/or rebuttal of what you think I think. I may read it later and respond in similar detail, though.

See you on the new episode thread! Hoping for a good episode.

still not fond of the idea that we see other vulcans other than Spock in starfleet. Wasn't the reason sarek wasn't fond of Spock joining starfleet was that it was a very unvulcan career path at this point in time? Something that was brought up again in season one of this show (even though we did see previous vulcan starfleet officers in discovery, but then again I've gained the impression that maintaining continuity with Discovery is not SNW's highest priority. not to mention if you believe the interpretation of the LD finale that Disc had been rendered non-canon.

Solid thumbs up for this episode. I enjoy picking apart stories as much as the next obsessive fan, but overall both the premise and the execution felt solid.

This was the first Kirk/TOS-centric episode that worked for me. Generally I find SNW Kirk to be rather meh and his repeated appearances to be out of place. A Quality of Mercy was the only time that I felt like he had anything to do with the SNW story. Here, I didn't quite get why we needed him. That said, at least it felt like I got some sense of who Kirk is at his baseline, and also a sense of how he grows into who he is to become. While he definitely lacks the charisma that I would expect, the combination of boots on the ground/risk is our business attitude, refusing to settle for bad options, isolating himself, looking for solutions based on individual inspiration, and the Kirk/Spock dynamic, all ring true. I also really enjoyed the beat shifts from elation and excitement at defeating the behemoth, to feeling the weight of those thousands of bodies, to Kirk's realization that he values human life over other life. It reminds me of a great moment in The West Wing.

This was also the most Spock-like we've seen Spock for a while. It was such a refreshing change to see him bringing calm competency in an emergency, adhering to protocol, running the scanners, rather than being a tango dancing chick magnet. The little aside about Uhura taking the helm was the right kind of memberberry - it is a nice little reminder for those who recall Uhura in TOS, but if you don't, it stands on its own and adds to, rather than disrupts, the tension of the episode.

The SNW side of the episode was also solid. Everyone was doing their part. I found Pelia's collection and solution to be the hardest to suspend my disbelief over, but I more or less got there and it was enjoyable. Pike and La'an were a good mix of competent and professional while still being human. It would be nice if redshirt had a name, but I liked how Pike was shown to be impacted by her death and also not distracted from the big picture.

There's a lot of discussion about cannon. My perspective is that cannon is a resource that should be treated with respect because it loses its value if it is disregarded too often. At the same time, you should not let cannon get in the way of telling a better story or making improvements. The whole Janice Lester no women captains debate is pointless to me. That was some 1960s BS and it should be ignored. The TNG Klingons were way better than the TOS Klingons and I didn't need any more explanation than that. The Gorn rubber suit in TOS was what they could do then. I think the SNW Gorn are better than the TOS Gorn so I'm not upset about the cannon there.

Good shit. Good, Trekkian shit. Me likez. Moreso, good, Trekkian-yet-dark, character-developing, poignant shit! No morality cop-out at the end. Kirk really did kill 7k human beings, and he has to live vith his choice there. So far, Pike never had anything as soul-crushing on his resume.

History bothers me a little tho. Vhen, exactly, did Earth and USA had time and resources to launch this mission, betwen the end of WW3 and the near-total destruction it caused, and First Contact? And why is it never mentioned in any history books in other Trek shows? SNW better come up vith a good reason for that, down the line.

3.5/4 The historical - vagueness - just bothers me. Other then that, a near-perfect Star Trek.

Great episode. Definitely the best of the series.
When the telephones came out I was sure that was why we'd had Scotty's John Logie Baird reference earlier. I was fully expecting him to come back, clock the telephones, and make some comment about great Scottish engineering. (Alexander Graham Bell was also born in Scotland). Would have been a nice call back.
But that's a nit pick. Loved this episode.

I think I’ll round this one up to 3 stars but barely.

Points in favour - I see why Shatner approves of our new Kirk. He is excellent. I’m not sure why others don’t like him. He channels Shatner without patronizing him. I think he’s great. Nice Spock and Kirk interaction. Mildly intriguing idea in the behemoth.

Points against - Completely tacked on morality idea to close out the show. Surprise they are USA ecologists. Ok sure. Very lazy to just add that in the post logue. I’m tired of the monster zombie drama on SNW. Pelia is completely absurd as a “character”. She travels around the galaxy with her suitcase of phones and ataris even as she quips that she doesn’t like the 1980s. Please. They even had a Brady bunch scene split with them on the phones. Like are we taking Star Trek at all seriously?

And what was with Kirk saying the enterprise is being held together with duct tape? Is duct tape still a miracle solution? Also I was ready to yell shut up Uhura as she was revving up for her second big melodramatic speech this season (first explaining on why Star Trek is amazeballs) on Kirk and how to make him feel better - probably with kindness and love or some other fluffy thing. Thank god she stopped.

Great episode, maybe my favorite of this series. Fan service done right.