“Among the Lotus Eaters”

This episode was very TOS. Right down to the score, which was mixed quieter than it would have been in the 1960s, but other than that I felt it would have fit right in. Sure, maybe that's a little thing, but I really enjoyed it.

And all right, maybe this would have been a middling TOS episode. It wouldn't be one of the ones that spark endless discussion and appreciation or that made Star Trek a phenomenon. But I do think it's one that most of us would have enjoyed seeing in reruns, on balance. TOS had plenty worse. So like I said, middling.

Everyone wanting your "strange new worlds" in Strange New Worlds? Here ya go.

Enjoyed the way they changed the color of the sky to be pinkish, too. Enjoyed that there was an A and a B plot, being what was happening on the surface and what was happening on the ship.

Enjoyed how the episode tied back into The Cage. Rigel VII was the planet the Enterprise had visited directly before that episode. Spock being injured was mentioned in that episode. Zacharias was Pike's yeoman whom he was mourning in that episode, whose death had him in such a deep funk that he was considering retiring from the fleet. Here he is revealed to have survived. Neat callback, but irrelevant to the episode if you aren't a superfan and don't know that. That's how callbacks should be done.

I'm sure there will be lots of comments with Ortegas hate to come. Me, I'm ambivalent on her. Likable enough screen presence who doesn't bother me in any way but she hasn't added much to the show so far either. "The pilot is so good at flying the ship that she can do it even with no memory of who she is" is not much in the way of compelling character development, in my opinion. If this is the show's idea of doing an "Ortegas episode," or "what an Ortegas storyline should be," then the Ortegas character isn't a very strong one and is probably in trouble. But we shall see as the season continues to develop.

It's better than some Trek main characters ever got and as an actress she did more with it than certain other actors ever managed to. Hi, Travis. Hi, Harry.

. . .

Okay yes, we all agree that Pike moving the asteroid IS a violation of the Prime Directive, right? In my opinion both he and Spock know that at the end of the episode when they are having that conversation. Spock lets it go because he thinks it's the right thing to do. They're both agreeing to agree it is not a violation of the Prime Directive and that they won't talk more about it when they both know what it is they are doing. It's the kind of exchange he might have with Kirk with one eyebrow raised at the end of the episode while McCoy hovers over the other side of the command chair. At least I think so.

. . .

Not so interested in the "Pike's girlfriend" subplot and it didn't seem to contribute much thematically? It was fine, it just didn't seem integrated as well into the "purpose" of the episode as it might have been.

. . .

Where did Una go halfway through the episode? I know she was affected early, but still.

This was a very enjoyable episode, which this season (and series) seems to be aiming towards. Kinda like an updated take on comfort food.

I think the thread with Pike and Batel is that something bad will happen to her later in the season, which is why they've been playing up the relationship aspect.

I do agree that lifting the asteroid is a definite violation of the Prime Directive, but probably from the 24th/25th century perspective, which is where most of my understanding comes from. From a TOS perspective, probably par for the course, which is why there seemed to be no qualms.

This was perhaps my least favourite episode of Strange New Worlds to date. I'm just not too certain what to take away from it. There were a few nice moments, mostly centred on Ortegas's aptitude, and there is something to be said about the crew holding firm to their core characteristics in a difficult circumstance, but the latter did not come through particularly well, or occur evenly. The closing line on the planet from Pike, for example, rang a bit hollow given what was about to play out before another memory recall.

The title also appeared to be more apt for an episode like The Original Series' 'This Side of Paradise.' Relatedly, in that episode, the captain's core character outdid the intervening effect (i.e., the 'lotuses').

Kirsten Beyer is known, in part, for creatively expanding and building upon canon in the literary universe, and she shows her ability to do so here, following-up on a sliver of a story from more than fifty years ago, but, I have to admit, she's now penned some of my least favourite episodes in each iteration of modern, live action Trek (along side Discovery's 'Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum' and Picard's 'Mercy.')

With that said, the performances of the cast remain solid, and I'm still looking forward to what the next episode brings.

I just find it amusing that characters whose minds are being affected start to speak in short, declarative sentences with no contractions or long words, like the text of an beginner reading book.

Meh.

This episode was very TOS in the sense that it was "premise-based," while most of SNW has been character based.

What do I mean? Just that even though the episode tried to weave little character bits into the show, such as Pike's background on Rigel VII and his floundering relationship, ultimately, there was nothing in this episode that really required the SNW characters themselves to be involved. It could have just as easily been an episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, etc., with different characters occupying the same roles.

Which is part of why it all rings a little thin to me. I mean, they tried to have an emotional theme here, with Pike's feelings for Batel centering him and the reflection upon loss and memory by Luq at the end. But fundamentally this is just a "crew discovers negative space wedgie" episode, which we've seen plenty of before.

Also, if I were Melissa Navia, I would be pissed. She finally gets "an episode" to prove Ortegas something other than a quippy, chipper person with a high-maintenance haircut who flies the ship. We discover she's...a quippy chipper person with a high-maintenance haircut who flies the ship! Obviously, you can't plumb the depths of someone's psyche in an amnesia episode, but still, this was pretty goddamned disappointing.

Overall, very little to say here because the episode had very little to say. I honestly liked the TNG take on ship-wide amnesia better, where the crew started trying on different roles and interacting in ways we wouldn't expect rather than just stumbling around and ignoring one another, except for when the plot required it.

Excellent episode, best of the season thus far. Even 3.5 stars seems slightly low, but there's something that makes me hesitate to go for the full 4 stars. I felt it was potentially heading that way, but then the palace storyline wrapped up awfully quickly and neatly. Still, a minor quibble in a very good outing. Let's say 3.75 stars.

It's funny how, as someone noted in the comments section of a previous episode, the reactions to this show are all over the map. AMA just upthread calling this the weakest episode of the series--whaaat?

@SlackerInc

Yeah I haven’t watched today’s episode, but there always being someone in the first reactions here calling the latest episode as the worst of the series is getting quite silly. They can’t all be correct! Same with the “best ever” I suppose. But I get the sense that this season is getting better and better more than worse and worse.

Reed Birney (Luq) is such a consummate character actor he seems familiar even if you haven't seen him in anything else.

I am amazed how much I like this entry. It has a very sim­ple struc­ture, plays a lot of Trek tropes in a slight­ly novel way, and it is, at least for me, pretty much satis­fying. I am so hap­py that the show final­ly de­livers on it pro­mise of “Stran­ge New Worlds”, be­cause we haven’t seen any such since, I guess, 1x06 (the Omelas episode).

There is some fun in the thought that this is the second time that Kurz­man-era Trek (or Trek v3, as I like to call it) made a se­quel to “The Me­na­ge­rie”. And I like both of them, which per­haps shows that I have fal­len for the nost­algia trap com­­ple­te­­ly. But the, may­be I am just right that these are good se­quels. And doesn’t the epis­ode it­self tell me that cling­ing to memory is a good thing?

I liked than nobody has any kind of super­power to escape the memory-sup­pres­sing ef­fect of the ra­dia­tion — Vul­cans and Il­lyri­ans don’t get a free pass, but every­one suf­fers equally. I like how core ele­ments of the cha­rac­ters re­main­ed when every­thing else got eroded. And I like that Ortegas got more screen­­time and more act­ing range, even if all she really did was fly the ship as usual.

In he end, I give that a 75% score. It wasn’t am­biti­ous in any way, but it suc­ceed­ed well for me.

P.S.: I am absolutely sure I saw the se­quen­ce with Ortegas’ log entry, her ex­cite­ment to join the land­ing party and her sub­se­quent dis­ap­point­ment be­fore. Was that a call­back to an S1 epis­ode, or was it part of a trailer, or where else did I see it?

I am so glad to have a new Trek that isn't beholden to the Super Serious Serialized Drama format.

DS9 and X-Files balanced their mythology and standalone episodes flawlessly. Locking a series into season-long arcs saps energy and creativity from the show.

This episode, better than almost any other non-VOY episode, demonstrates the critical need for the EMH, particularly one with a mobile emmiter. Though I hate to think what would happen to an Intrepid-class ship with Neural Circuitry in orbit of that planet!

@Sintek

Until I saw the credits and googled it, I could have sworn it was an older David Constabile (who played Gale B. On Breaking Bad). Those guys could easily play brothers!

Good episode. I think it will hold up to rewatches.

I agree with the comments above that the Pike girlfriend subplot goes nowhere. The writers want us to believe two captains divert their starships on a whim to meet up whenever they please?!

I'm also one of the Ortegas haters mentioned above. She was okay here. She's like Jet Reno's perky, annoying little sister. I prefer all of the other characters to her, so Ortegas' expanded screen time falls flat while Una and Uhura sit sidelined for the bulk of the episode.

This one’s ok, but the scripts so far this season are starting to feel shallow and amateurish—what happened to the strong characters and relationships from season one? This was essentially another Naked Now with some action bits thrown in. Seriously dumb at points, and everyone feels childish.

Cast is great as usual. The look is better than ever. I just think they’ve doubled down on the plots without doing the same for the characters.

Fascinated to read how mild and positive everyone is about this snoozer of an ep that liberally borrows from multiple past episodes. From TNG's Conundrum and Thine Own Self to TOS's Patterns of Force to Voyager's Workforce and DS9's Babel, only to get what feels like a semi decent TOS episode.

It's an okay premise that could have done with tighter editing. We didn't really need the scenes on the Enterprise itself. The threat of the radiation was obvious from the scenes on the planet, no need to affect the whole ship just to give Ortegas some time to shine... And does she really start her personal logs by saying her name? *sigh* She flies the ship, you know?

It was good to have Anson Mount back in action again after the first three episodes were relatively light on Pike. However, Rebecca Romijn got next to nothing to do this week... Continuing a troublesome trend for her character who already seems to be making space for Spock.

Also, apparently the Enterprise computer is advanced enough to remind you of who you are and where you live... Yet no one thought of ordering it give the senior staff regular reminders?

Long story short: This is one of those mid season episodes you revisit when you're in the mood, but just as easily forget about. Which is fine if you have 26 per season, but feels like a borderline criminal waste when you only do 10.

Decent but I was struck thinking how much the large budget played a part in making this episode appear better than it was written. Even the music cues are huge and symphonic. And expensive. I wonder how many middle of the road TNG and DS9 episodes would have been elevated by this treatment.

No one has mentioned so far this episode was directed by Eduardo Sanchez, the co-writer and co-director of The Blair Witch Project.

Completely agree @Norvo. A middle-of-the-road TOS affair (and I really like TOS!)

I love Strange New Worlds, and enjoyed spending an hour with all the characters this week, but let's face it, this wasn't exactly scintillating television.

But then again, I LOVED last week's episode, while @Jammer gave it 2 stars, so to each their own, I suppose.

Just glad they're giving this crew time to breathe and do their thing. To that extent, I get the @SlackerInc love. I just don't share it for this particular adventure.

But I see what @Pike’s Hair is saying. It really feels like SNW is hitting a nice stride. Even its bland outings are enjoyable.

I'm a bit undecided about this episode.

Stuff that I liked:
- a strange new(-ish) world
- everyone got something to do, unlike last week
- once again some funny Spock moments
- the visuals on this show are stunning once again. The planet looked nice, the external VFX in the debris field of two celestial bodies that orbited Rigel VII several centuries ago looked nice, the Enterprise interiors look *so* nice.

Stuff that I didn't like:
- I'm not a fan of forced relationship dramas. Plus, from the pilot episode I got the feeling that Pike and Batel (does she even have a first name yet?) are only friends with benefits, but now Batel storms off after Pike says he wants to take it easy? Weird.
- how can a society or any sort of structure be maintained if you can't remember anything? The whole premise felt a bit off.
- the writing for Ortegas was weak. Her personal log at the beginning of the episode sounded like it was written by ChatGPT. And the stuff towards the end of the episode wasn't great either. The actor did the best she could with what she was given but the writing really didn't do her any favors.

Was initially underwhelmed but on second watch and after hearing Pike on ready toon the emotional heaviness of the episode is starting to resonate more with me.

I think it will age well.

Ready Room* 🫠

Ok episode. Not bad. Average

@Cody B hits the nail on the head, I think. This is one of those episodes that in one of the legacy shows would be your classic forgettable throwaway, but SNW's modern production values and streaming-flagship budget really give it a boost it probably doesn't deserve.

It's the most middling episode of the show for me since "Ghosts Of Illyria", which is a shame because I liked a lot of what it was trying to do: tie back to the disastrous mission referenced in The Cage, show us Pike pushing forward with his relationships despite knowledge of his impending doom, finally give Melissa Navia as Ortegas something more to play than just Quippy Ace Pilot...

Speaking of Ortegas. Good lord, was this really the best they could do for her in her first real spotlight? I understand that not every character needs to have a tragic backstory to spice up their arcs, but surely they can do more for her character than this!

Really: what have we learned about her so far that *doesn't* have to do with her job on the ship? We've learned tons of incidental details about every other character so far, but she's still kind of a blank slate to me. It's frustrating because the show has done stellar work in fleshing out the rest of the cast so far, and Melissa Navia is clearly game for whatever material she gets.

That said: I didn't mind this. It was interesting to ponder "who are you, really?" underneath all of your education and backstory, and although the execution was lacking, it was still very watchable thanks to the aforementioned slick production. 2 stars, methinks.

@UESPA_Sputnik

“how can a society or any sort of structure be maintained if you can't remember anything? The whole premise felt a bit off.”

They say in the episode that the guards and people in the palace are protected by their helmets and the place because they’re all made from ore that protects them from memory loss. Clearly they are able to use this to their advantage to dominate the population in a feudal dictatorship.

*protected by their helmets and the palace from the memory loss caused by radiation from the planet.

Like many here I would say this is an ok episode, solid but not great. There are two things that particulary bothered me while watching it:

- Enterprise not moving to a save distance once the radiation is identified as the source of the problem. Una may have the excuse of already being impaired when ordering to stay close to the planet, but because of that Spock should have ignored it.

- Removing Ortegas from the away team. This strikes me as wrong on several levels.

1. Ortegas should not be the only person able to fly the ship through the debris, doing "a manual correction every 20 minutes". As the computer states she is the pilot of the alpha-shift. What about the pilots of beta, gamma and possibly delta-shift? After all they are supposed to be on duty while Ortegas is away anyway.

2. Ortegas is clearly excited to finally be on an away-team. Taking that away from her should be bad for morale. Also for the on-duty pilot being told that way that he is not good enough.

3. After Ortegas is removed from the away-team nobody takes her place. Pike simply decides he can fly the shuttle himself, so apparently a pilot was never required at all. So why assign Ortegas in the first place? I could well imagine Pike taking her along soley to give her the opportunity to be finally part of an away-team (morale-booster!) but in that case it backfired.

Hmm. This is the fourth episode in a row that was neither good nor bad, just OK. Given that we’re almost halfway through a season, I really hope things improve. As others have pointed out, this felt very much like a TOS episode. But it’s hard to know what the writers had in mind. They came up with an interesting premise, but didn’t seem to really know what to do with it. And if this was the big Ortegas episode we were promised, what a letdown. I learned nothing new about this character other than she’s itching to go on away missions. Melissa Navia deserved better.

I did enjoy the mystery here; I was pretty hooked the whole way through so I think that counts for something. However once the ep ended and I had a minute to think about it, there was a lot here that that didn’t add up.
I’m not seeing any plausibility to the Yoeman’s story of survival. How many phaser rifles did he have? We’re supposed to believe after an entire landing party is run off the planet by these fearsome warriors a Yoeman with a phaser rifle and memory loss manages to take over the entire complex? Maybe that’s believable but I think we needed more of an explanation so it seemed less like a poorly-thought out plot line to get Pike where he needed to be emotionally.

Another contrivance was how they went out of their way to explain that deeply-known memories or skills are not forgotten- except Spock can’t read?

And what a disappointing story for Ortegas. We already know she’s the pilot. We learn nothing more about her. It’s almost like a self-deprecating dig by the writers at themselves for not fleshing the secondary characters out: “my name is X and all you need to know about me is my job is X”.

Better than last week, but still middling. Trust NuTrek to do an episode about how important 'mah feels' are. It's all about intuition and emotional 'truth' as opposed to reason, rationality, empiricism, etc. Also, just had to include a reference to that Vulcan lawyer who is apparently a vindictive asshole on top of being arrogant and smug. Personally, I find this insulting. It's amazing how NuTrek can reference so many little continuity details (these writers clearly know their Trek on a surface level), but so thoroughly misunderstand Trek's underlying philosophy.

Norvo sez "we didn't really need the scenes on the Enterprise itself"
Say what now ?

That's where we see all the progression !
Early on Nurse Chapel is figuring it out and how quickly it's going to spread and the next time we see her she's already a walking memory zombie.

This ep would be missing so much without the effects on the ship

https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-snw/s2/among-the-lotus-eaters.php#comment-108443

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. It had heart, it had spirit. The scenes with Spock and Ortega are never going to work for me, I'll be skipping all of that on a rewatch. But in my opinion this is the best Ortega has ever been. Only two people on the bridge? Starfleet really has a staffing crisis. Otherwise tons of fun, really involved story, well directed, and well edited.

@ David M. Roberts:

Most of the Enterprise scenes served only as an exposition device that takes (slower/distractef) viewers by the hand through the episode. Chapel's diagnosis routine felt so superfluous: "It wasn't the oatmeal". No kidding!

Maybe I'm a jaded, experienced Trek viewer who thinks he's seen it all before. But to me, the events on the planet clearly set up the mystery: "Something causes a nightly, planet wide memory wipe. But somehow you're safe inside the castle. Let's figure it out!" That's all you need, really.

The decision to have the entire Enterprise crew succumb to the radiation as well was only made to explain why they didn't send rescue parties once Pike's away team failed to check in on time.

Boy did this premise irk me. This little twerp managed to take over the planet just because he had a phaser? Swiss cheese plotting that fails to support such a heavy premise. Please don't try to explain this to me, I don't care.

Setting the premise aside, everything else was fantastic. The planet looked very cool And the cast killed it. I'm looking forward to rewatching just to savor the imagery. Also this cast is really really ridiculously good looking. Starfleet discipline is all that's stopping the Enterprise crew from unbearable sexual tension.

@Norvo: "Fascinated to read how mild and positive everyone is about this snoozer of an ep...feels like a semi decent TOS episode."

I guess you must not be as high on TOS as I am. That's still my favorite Trek series, so a "semi decent TOS episode" does not equate with "snoozer" for me.

@Carl: "We’re supposed to believe after an entire landing party is run off the planet by these fearsome warriors a Yoeman with a phaser rifle and memory loss manages to take over the entire complex?"

Yeah, that's a bit of a contradiction, I thought about that too.

Also a fair question as to why Spock couldn't read.

@David M. Roberts: "This ep would be missing so much without the effects on the ship"

Completely agree. Weird take from @Norvo

Two stars. Geez these shows are an expensively produced snooze. At least last week it held my attention with the wonky premise, Khan callback, and location shooting. Now we’re back to overwritten and underplotted verbal excess that makes my mind wonder.

This episode started out with more middling soap opera dialogue (these new Trek prequels are really talky and draggy compared to TOS) and a fairly incoherent setup to explain the reason for revisiting an old planet. The lack of storytelling economy and tons of verbal padding in these episodes makes me miss the 1960s series. And it’s often illogical: Why let Ortegas get dressed for a landing party and then tell her she’s not going? Dumb. The ep doesn’t even follow up on the beat with any sort of challenging shuttle landing; it’s just a pointless Star Trek V style gag at Ortegas’ expense.

The yeoman-turned-warlord recalls the TOS trope of all the crazy Starfleet officers gone native. This is not a good thing, as it doesn’t really entertain or lead to plausible action. The same goes for the A/B plot alien virus thing, another TOS callback that feels more like a plot device than an engaging sci fi idea. As with most things SNW, this story is largely an exercise in predictable plotting with too much dialogue, minus the TOS payoff of including some deeper idea or message.

Again, this show should be about Strange New Worlds, not tired old ones. We saw this world in The Cage and The Menagerie, now it’s just being remixed with TOS beats. That’s somewhat appropriate to a show that somehow claims to be related to TOS, despite making only scant effort until now to fit into its timeline. The thread about the landing party’s strong personalities piercing through the amnesia disease recalls many similar moments in TOS, with a little added shipboard peril. Forgive me, but I missed the dialogue explaining why the crew didn’t notice this on their first visit to Rigel VII, mostly because these eps are so talky that words slip by. None of it leads to anything less than predictable.

As for Spock, I miss Leonard Nimoy: His Spock would have used some kind of Vulcan memory exercise to fight the fog, not just write down crew identities on pads. The original Spock was such a cooler character than the post-Nimoy imitations. All the more reason to cancel these prequels and apply “the forgetting” to them.

PS — I also want to say this story feels a bit like a self-reflective effort to switch up the SNW formula, almost a comment on the series itself to date. It’s a talky and cerebral episode that makes an intermittently interesting effort to let the characters rely only on their emotions to survive a memory wipe. Pike going harsh to rescue his memories is mildly interesting, I liked the Ortegas epiphany, but the failure to tap Spock’s Vulcan resources to focus on Ortegas feels like a lapse. If this show knew it’s franchise character Bible, Spock should fight back at least a bit harder, even if defeated in the end. And where is Number One again this week? Spock stands next to Pike in the chair at the end; where is she? Finally, the yeoman character is so underwritten that he feels like a two dimensional cipher, not a worthy mind gone mad ala TOS. Such an uneven series.

NOO NOO WHERE ARE THE ALIENS? Is this show Star Trek or not?? And the title lotus eaters made me think we would see some unique exotic nonhumanoid aliens--some lotus like aliens--didn't anyone else think this and was disappointed by the prosaic asteroid explanation--i thought the ringing especially would be some cool imaginative sci fi creature or anomaly--did anyone else think this? especially from Kirsten Beyer who created so many new cool aliens in her Voyager books and Discovery episodes! what a poor effort here as far as sci-fi

@Leif

I think it’s time for you to accept that you just don’t like the show, buddy. You aren’t satisfied every week, despite the show being decent. It’s okay to not like things and not partake in them.

Contrivances aside, one aspect of this that I found compelling was how victims of abuse (in this case, the workers) might rationalize that abuse as OK or acceptable. Luq conveyed that acceptance angle in an interesting way.

Also, violent Pike is something I didn’t expect to see… the man was brutal when he was acting on instinct alone!

I'm glad they are finally "out and about", but I don't really get this story. Some of it was okay, but for the most part it felt a bit forced and contrived. The score was good and the special effects were solid as usual. The actors did what they could given the material, but in the end it wasn't enough. 2 stars... Hopefully this is just a minor bump in the road.

Folks, “Lotus Eaters” is a callback to the Odyssey, no? The idea that in some new exotic place, something sucks the visitor in whether inexplicably or not. With all the people complaining regularly about “on the nose” plots, I’m guessing we’d have had a comments riot on our hands if the locals actually ate lotuses…

So far this season, all but one episode has put the ball in play, at least. Sounds terrible to say, but I'd much rather SNW put out a bog standard TOS ep that functions well, versus an experiment or dramatic "musical" that falls flat on its face. We are also seeing a different distribution of opinions in S2, where I think many of the more extreme critics just stopped watching altogether after S1.

The scientists at CERN have atomic clocks less reliable than Jeffrey's Tube having the first post. Good work, I hope the Ministry of Propaganda at Paramount is paying you the big bucks for digital advocacy. :)

C'mon, I've seen this critique lobbed at him numerous times and it even made me wonder at first. But look at what he actually wrote: that doesn't look like corporate shillery to me.

This one's a real mixed bag and comes across as well-intentioned but amateurishly executed. At least we get a strange new world, some OK sci-fi relating to memories causing a potential calamity with the ship and the landing party, and one guest character who is a bit of a tragic story -- but the resolution is all kinds of cringe with Ortegas thrust into her most important role of the series. Ortegas is easily the most annoying Trek main cast character ever. If some people think Neelix is annoying, Ortegas is "absofrickenlutely" 10x worse.

The issue of cultural contamination posited up front was a bit of a red herring -- and I'm happy about that. That type of episode has also been done before and SNW didn't need to go there. I do feel there is some originality here and liked the parts about the old man "Luke" saying he's past the need to remember but once he gets in the palace (which is the "casket of memories") he realizes his life's memories matter. So I think there's a decent lesson here of not forgetting our past (especially considering there are those who'd like to erase it or re-write / re-frame it).

The part about La'an getting slashed, being told she might die, and then walking to the palace was a bit much -- how stupid do these writers think we are? That was just poor. In addition, Dr. Mumbles has to go to the palace, wait until his memories return and then perform surgery. Ridiculous.

But Ortegas's lines are just too distracting from having any kind of quasi-intelligent experience -- all that "I fly the ship" crap and then she goes from not knowing anything to being able to fly the ship. And she has a super stupid haircut. So the whole memory loss thing was too arbitrary and wishy-washy though I think there was potential there. It made me think of Archer's situation in "Twilight" and Kirk in "The Paradise Syndrome" but here SNW wanted to make a distinction between what kinds of memories are lost or something.

2 stars for "Among the Lotus Eaters" -- this one's a wasted opportunity as it has decent potential but needed to be better executed. One way of doing so would be to not use Ortegas. The Pike romance thing was pure cliche as a small subplot, but it is interesting to get the fallout from the court case and Pike's woman not getting promoted. Getting the feeling that if SNW does not lean heavily on TOS, it has forgotten how to tell an interesting story.

More classic Star Trek writing.
Loved how Majel Barrett (the original "Number 1") saved the Enterprise by reminding Lt Ortega that she's the pilot. Gene would've liked that.

RIP Gene and Majel (Barrett) Rodenberry 🖖

I really liked this episode.

I’m a sucker for stories about memory, identity, etc. That this went back to Rigel 7 to tell that story was wonderful continuity gravy. I really loved the explanation for why they’re perpetually stuck in the Bronze Age.

SNW S2 is 4 for 4 for me.

(Picaaaaaard...get away from that launcher...ahem)

It's kind of gimmicky. It has all the different fixings and trappings of a classic Star Trek episode, including a "gimmick of the week." That the crew are all losing their memories.

"Prog-Metal Conundrum" if you will. It's slick and shiny and virtuostically all-inclusive with its classic story beats in every department, but that's still just Conundrum, with more bells and whistles.

I, for one, however, actually got a bit of a goof out of Ortegas' conversation with the High-End Ship PC Voice. Star Trek has been doing computer voice gags for a long time and I never fail to giggle at one. This one is a neat spin on it, where every time she repeats her Mantra of Badass, the ship chimes in "Affirmative" in an absolutely colorless voice. It's ridiculous, but very in-character for Star Trek.

"Tea, Earl Grey, Hot."

"Make it yourself."

I enjoyed the pacing and the different, unsettled approach... 3.5 stars. An amnesia episode is hardly one for developing characterization, but good for deconstructing essences. Pike's "all-business" approach to the climactic confrontation, then the shift once the memories returned, was especially interesting.

Please make the seasons longer.

I like Star Trek? A lot? It's one of my favorite things, ever?

Big deal?

. . .

I live in California. I have Paramount Plus through Amazon. I don't know if this is the case through a standalone Paramount+ subscription, but through Amazon new Star Trek episodes drop at 11pm on Wednesdays if you're in my time zone. Comments on Jammer's site open 12am Thursdays. So by the time I finish watching the episode, the comments section is open. If I feel like it, I come here and give my thoughts. With Strange New Worlds, I generally feel like it. If I'm first, well, that's why.
Because the timing just works out for where I live.

I'm hardly always positive, so I don't get the criticism. I'm sorry that I generally genuinely enjoy the show?

@Narissa's Bath Water

I would cease these ad hominem insinuations masquerading as 'jokes'. They aren't funny and their only purpose is to dismiss and discredit someone.

@smallkiwi

“ The planet looked very cool And the cast killed it. I'm looking forward to rewatching just to savor the imagery.”

This is kind of what I was getting at in my previous post. You have to be careful not to rate some of these episodes higher just because of sparkles and explosions. Take for instance the TOS episode Arena (the kirk vs gorn episode). It’s pretty well regarded but also there’s many memes because of the low production and how bad the gorn suit looks. Now throw millions of dollars and todays tech at the episode. Likely It would be considered one of the greatest episodes ever. Or throw millions of dollars at any episode of trek pre Enterprise era. It’s in fair really because majority of SNW episodes would be less well received were they shot exactly like the TOS era they try to be. Not to say they are bad scripts but the polish and shine of all that money can make them appear better than the writing really is

Looks like an eye-catching setting for what might have been a good episode. Somewhat intriguing premise, but the execution just wasn't there. This seems to be a recurring theme this season.

It's not worth nitpicking every little thing because they're mainly due to lazy or sloppy writing than glaring episode-breaking issues. Like what are the odds that this bizarre and novel radiation that penetrates hull and shields would crash into a planet via an asteroid that just so happens to be rich in an ore that can protect from that specific type radiation and can even be fashioned into Magneto helmets to keep away the cray-cray, which is also very convenient for this society's low-tech level of development. Or that an asteroid of any strength or density would conveniently remain in one piece after slamming into a planet so that it can easily be tractor-beamed away without any radioactive residues remaining... I understand that Star Trek slightly diverges from real physics, but normally science fiction at least has a truthiness to it that separates it from the space-fantasy of The Little Prince.

- Just how petty would this judge have to be to interfere with Pike's GF's career to get back at Pike..? Isn't she the same person that diligently (at least by Nu-Trek standards) handled the prosecution for Una's case? Was it known beforehand that this could be a potential conflict of interest? And wouldn't it have been clear after the fact that she went above the normal call of duty to perform her job as required in spite of that conflict? The incestuous interlinkages between all the characters make this feel like a bad fanfic and are just as infuriating in their implications.

- Pikes vows he won't make the same mistake as last time culturally contaminating the planet. He's taken even the smallest of contingencies into consideration...and then proceeds to wear an exotic cultural icon around his neck... I guess some people never learn.

- I LOL'd when Spock just spontaneously forgot who to read. Wouldn't that would count as an implicit memory or skill which should have been unaffected according to their own explanations?

- Ortegas gets her chance to shine.. in just the sort of overwrought self-congratulatory fashion that is so typical of Nu-Trek. If this were an amnesiac episode of any earlier era of Trek, it would take 5 seconds for pilot or whoever is most crucial for the plot to start moving forward again, to get their shit together and do what had to be done. No self-affirmations or overlong monologues. No orchestra swells. And definitely no patting themselves on the back when they debrief with their personal log after the fact. Well, off-screen they might, but it wouldn't be a whole other scene in addition to all the ado about nothing from earlier.

Loved this episode as amazing high-concept sci-fi.
What a bunch of miserable nitpickers above.
I appreciate the healthy discourse but it too often heads a little too far towards toxic negativity more times than not for what seems to be sniping at something you claim to like.
Best of luck.

Nitpickers is apt. There are many nits here one can validly pick, but I don't mind them because as you say, there's some good high concept sci-fi here, not something that grows on trees (even within this series and certainly other nu-Trek series).

@Rahul It was easier for Ortegas to remember how to fly a ship than the doctor to perform surgery (and the other science, security and command jobs) because maneuvering a ship involves a lot of muscle memory, like playing a video game. And it was only after she was told by the Computer. At first she was too confused and scared to see the flight controls at her station to know they felt familiar.

@UESPA_Sputnik
"- the writing for Ortegas was weak. Her personal log at the beginning of the episode sounded like it was written by ChatGPT. And the stuff towards the end of the episode wasn't great either. The actor did the best she could with what she was given but the writing really didn't do her any favors."

@Tim C
"Speaking of Ortegas. Good lord, was this really the best they could do for her in her first real spotlight? "

I'm not sold on Ortegas at all for exactly this reason. I'm not a hater (though I really dislike the snarky and time-warping lines she seems to get stuck with, like a previous episode's "no presh," inexplicably shown again in this episode's "Previously on" for Ghu's sake) and have nothing against Navia. But the writing for this character is always weak. It doesn't help that even now, her character has never really been spotlighted, even if the performer has been to some extent. Think about it: Navia's two biggest episodes last year have her playing someone other than Ortegas (Prince So and So in the children's book episode, and alt-future Ortegas standing in for Lt. Styles in the season finale). Here we get a semi-spotlight at best, since at least half of her appearance is as an amnesiac version of Ortegas. The writers are indeed not doing this character any favors.

@Rahul - most annoying ever? Hard disagree, mate. You already mentioned Neelix, but how 'bout Rom, Leeta, Wesley, Alexander, Lwaxana.... granted, not all of these examples are regular cast members, but yikes.

I like her. She fits right in the mold of previous Trek smartasses, like Paris or Jadzia Dax. My main problem is that they've given her nothing *but* quippy smartass material thus far, and what she was given to play this week didn't really do anything to further her character beyond her job on the ship. Learning that she has the courage underneath to push past fear and confusion isn't really a revelation for me, given that she's a Starfleet officer.

The biggest danger for the writers is that they ignore her for too long and we are then left in the same situation as we were with Paris in late VOY, when they had to invent backstory from whole cloth that we'd never heard of before and thus rung false. ("Thirty Days").

@Cynic - I absolutely agree. The writers have demonstrated a good ability to shade in the other characters so far, so I'm mystified how they keep dropping the ball with Ortegas.

Agree on a 2.5* rating here. On the positive, the visuals are such that this could arguably said to be the best-looking SNW episode and therefore the best-looking Star Trek episode ever. I won't debate that strongly, but it's certainly in the running. The actors do extremely well with what they're given. I interpreted the A-plot with Pike et al. as a rumination on the value of memory and not forgetting (though I have an issue with that), and the B-plot on the ship as being something of an evocation of Alzheimer's disease, with the attendant confusion, fear, and moments of clarity. And, hey, we're not on Earth.

On the negative side, the A-plot just doesn't work that well for me. I think for me to have cared more, I would've had to care more about Luq as a counterpoint--a willing forgetter. The romance subplot also is kinda indefensible--not from a conceptual point but from an execution one. Pike--and Mount--seem at their absolute worst here, and not so much for characterological reasons but because the two actors feel really uncomfortable together. If Pike's supposed to be like Odysseus getting back to Penelope, well, it doesn't work. The work we attribute to Homer has Odysseus struggling through mighty and varied efforts to get home, and we also see Penelope's cleverness. When Pike gets home, bleh. Something of a limit of one-hour TV, surely, but I could imagine more easily Pike forcing himself to return home out of a sense of duty or family than to a "mid" love interest. In addition, the fact that the effects of the radiation somewhat differ "thematically" (at least as I see it) between the A- and B-plots weakens the cohesion of the episode, making it more like two separate, loosely related stories than two plot strains reflecting on one another.

For me, this episode aside, there are two bigger problems. One is that SNW doesn't seem to know what it's about. While the episode-to-episode quality has generally been very high, I'd be hard-pressed to summarize for a nonwatcher the actual (rather than ostensible) premise of this show. We're already nearly halfway through the season, and I have no idea what general point or tone the writers are going for. I suspect that has something to do with prequelitis. For better or worse, Discovery tried to have a level of momentousness when it was centered in a prequel period. SNW just seems to float around reactively. This is absolutely not an argument for me for galaxy-level stakes or a heavy metaplot in SNW, but at least Discovery by and large in its first two seasons aimed to be "about" something--something a lot of people didn't like, admittedly, but one thing you couldn't say was that it was content to just wander around.

The other big thing is that SNW seemed like such a relief in s1 specifically *in contrast to* the high-stakes, heavily serialized shows Discovery and Picard. As the almost-by-default flagship now, with Disco 5 still in the can and held off, I'm honestly worried this show doesn't have enough oomph to bear the burden assigned to it. Paramount+'s troubles are hardly SNW's fault, but it's hard not to see that SNW would work a helluva lot better if it were just one of several annualized live-action shows than standing on its own. It just feels too slight for the latter.

I have similar thoughts at this point on Lower Decks, which also works best as a counterpoint and which, at least to me, seemed to be running out of steam in s3. And it's both kind of weird and kind of fitting that the two series are having a crossover because both series are functioning as B-plots for A-plot series that more or less no longer exist.

I'm not asking that SNW become something it's not, but I am saying that what it is isn't enough to sustain a franchise.

@Tim C -- We'll have to agree to disagree. The only one on your list that comes anywhere close to being as annoying as Ortegas is Rom. Paris and Dax would make the occasional smart-ass comment but there was way more to their characters that was established up-front.

There's just this super-annoying vibe with Ortegas and the actress Navia. Sure, the writers aren't doing her any favors and this episode did not help the character at all. If I was captain and just kept observing Ortegas making dumb, snarky comments, I'd tell her to be more professional and act like an officer. The character belongs on some kind of stupid comedy, not Trek. And that is yet another strike against these writers.

@Sony -- yes what you say makes sense. I read Jammer's review and that helped understand the memory loss thing a bit better, so that much is interesting. The writers just really messed up with the rest of the Ortegas part prior to her flying the ship again.

And I agree 10 eps is too few. We're almost halfway through already, and in part because of P+'s woes and in part because of the writers' strike, we're forced to treat each of these episodes like gemstones, a situation that's only going to get worse as the strike continues on. It's the fault in our stars, or in our timeline.

Since Rigel VII is mostly a SNW, they could have at least have had a huge bright moon shining down on the palace, like the famous matte pairing from The Cage!! Or at least have had La’an or someone give the “Kaylar look”, like what Vina does at 56 seconds in this scene! Water opportunities! LOL

https://youtu.be/5oeWPlhc_V4

@Rahul, sounds like you'd be a real Jellico of a captain! 😉

I really, really liked this episode. It gave us a (kind of) 'strange new world' at long last and my weakness is episodes like 'Remember Me'. Plus Pike is back and then some. La'an and M'Benga are used really well, and I thought Rigel VII was visually very nicely done - a nice mix of TOS og TNG vibes, updated for the Marvel era, but not in a negative way.

The one down side of this episode was Ortegas. I'm hoping this was her focus episode. God, she's tedious. Do you know she pilots the ship? She does, you know. And why is sge getting away with talking to a superior officer the way she spoke to Spock? At least she wasn't Quippy McQuipface this episode.

My favourite episode of SNW so far, I'd say, perhaps tied with 'Children of the Comet'. Lots of points I'll probably come back to, but overall very pleased this week. 'Chapel' was great as well, as was the scene with Una and Pike. I could sit and watch Romijn and Pike discussing pretty much anything. They're outstanding in this.

@PM

"What a bunch of miserable nitpickers above."

Yes, Trekkies can be nitpicky about the show, but I wouldn't read too much into it. Star Trek is like sex, even when it's bad, it's still pretty good! ;-)

Zac didn't split the society into the workers and the palace people; it was already like that and he just installed himself as king. This is confirmed near the end of the episode when they talk about the totems, which they state are several thousand years old, corresponding to the time of the asteroid or moon impact on the planet.

Part of what makes the Star Trek universe feel like a 'universe' is consistency. I appreciate and accept the occasional retcons and changes in the service of what we hope will be a greater story or improvement, but overall consistency is what allows (most of) the most loyal members of the fanbase to feel immersed in the show. Its why creating books like the Star Trek Encyclopedia were money makers in the '90s and why Memory Alpha is always up-to-date.

The franchise seems to care less and less with regards to this, and to me, it is most evident not only by the sheer number of uniforms and delta insignias that have appeared across all the shows, but by the overlap of uniforms across the Star Trek timeline. Seeing officers from a mission from 5 years ago in this episode wear uniforms we've otherwise been led to think did not exist yet irked me. They should at least have those sweeping collars Pike wore in Discovery.

Star Trek no longer has uniforms; they have a full-fledged wardrobe. I wonder if officers all have their own walk-in closets! 😆

PS: In case someone points me to things like Kirk's wrap or Picard's field jacket: I felt like they showed up on occasion as a once-in-awhile alternative. This is different to all the new uniforms in recent Trek that are shown to give the appearance that they are standard.

The thing that reallys let's this episode down for me was Spock. For one of the smartest people in the Federation his decision to fly the ship into the asteroid belt was beyond f**king stupid.

Ok episode. Entertaining enough not to give up on it. What can be implied here is that Pike will probably have a big loss which he might wish not remember in the future... Since we know we will be alone after the doomed accident, his current girlfriend might ... y'know. Just a guess.

See? We don't ask much. Just come up with a different society, a modest problem to solve and put our Enterprise fellas to explore it. That's it, and I think this episode passed with flying colours.

So, a society on a planet that makes people forget things on a daily basis. Interesting premise. How would life be in such a setting? What myths and explanations would the natives come up to understand themselves and such a world? The episode actually gives us some fairly decent answers.

If we put the Enterprise under such effect, how would they come back? The episode also gave good support and justification for their actions, from innate feelings to gifts given, and observations made ("My hands are not callous"). They may not remember things, but can rely on who they are, on a more essential level. Cool.

I totally disagree with Ortega's scene being a "overly lengthy sequence that doesn't really work". It was well done from the beginning, she excited to be on the landing party, finding out she can't go... good writing. For me, this is exactly the kind of screentime we lack on shows nowadays. And then, she wakes up on the bridge, doesn't remember shit, wants to go home, see a pretty scary scenario of lost people on her way, finds her "home", but home isn't safe either, discovers by a combination of luck and cleverness that she is actually the pilot. This was not the usual "cool because the writers are saying so": Ortegas was indeed afraid. Coming back to the bridge was an act of courage, duty. It was awesome. And I think "I'm Erica Ortegas, I fly the ship" had a ring of "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die", maybe a deliberate reference? Not sure, but loved it anyways — what more do you guys wanted?

Pike's was also nice. He isn't a leader because he has a title or a insignia or even memories. He simply IS a leader, and doesn't matter if he remembers stuff or not, he will assume command of situations and "make a revolution". I like that.

Even that usual feel of "the entire world having with only 5 people", so commom in Star Trek, didn't happen here. The story was portrayed on an adequate scale, in my opinion.

The only thing I felt this episode lacked was Spock logicking the shit out of things when waking without memory on the bridge. I mean, a scenario where everyone lost their memories would be a perfect setting for a character to exercise his deductive skills and figure things out from some amazingly played pure logic. But what the episode opted to show filled this absence well enough.

For me, considering what we usually get from trek, this is a 4 stars episode.

“The thing that reallys let's this episode down for me was Spock. For one of the smartest people in the Federation his decision to fly the ship into the asteroid belt was beyond f**king stupid.”

I think it was logical to get away from the planet, although it seemed obvious that the belt may be a possible source. Spock was already affected. Una agreed with the call, although she was incapacitated. No one else challenged him in it. I may have missed it, but did they attempt in any way to scan for the radiation causing this before moving?

This episode was okay. It was a bit of a letdown after the castle battle in the Cage. I liked the how the VR wall felt very TOS (you could see where the set ended).

Pretty average episode. Not particlularly good nor bad. It explores interesting ideas but doesn't go deep enough as it very quickly veers into "we must invade the evil castle to save our dying friend". Invading the castle apprently was pretty easy, btw.

It was interesting to see Ortegas do something else rather than quip and look smug but when she was back in her chair all confident I was like, "oh well, it was nice while it lasted".
Also, didnt they have these tablets to remind them who they are? Did no one use it?

The theme of memories as defining the personality is very intriguing. I couldn't help but wonder what do Pike and company feel when they are robbed of their memoriies? The episode doesn't put down any rules. They seem to remember language and social interaction and they have intuitive feels, but they can't remember who they are or what they did yesterday. Does the radiation affect short term memory? Long term? The episode plays fast and loose with the rules to fit the plot.
I just wish there was a quiet moment where the characters really came to terms with what it means to lose your memories. As it were, we got an end scene with Pike and his captain girlfriend. Sorry, but I really don't care about this relationship,. I hardly... ah... remember who she even is. Why does the episode put so much emphasis on it?

I said:

"Tea, Earl Grey, Hot."

"Make it yourself."

I just figured out why I can't find this gag anywhere; I'm misremembering it, it was from Voyager, and Janeway orders coffee and is told by the replicator "Make it yourself."

Oopsie doodles :D carry on

Yeah, they didn't care a bit about Spock on this one. He was basically a supporting character, cast to do expositions and make others shine this time. Maybe it's just a dream, but someday we may have all characters well written in a single episode...

I truly don't get the Ortegas hate. I think some of y'all are just curmudgeons.

Wife and I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I'm a hospice worker and there are certainly connections with dementia, so maybe I'm a little biased.

I get why others say it is middle of the road though.

I just came away pleasantly entertained and intrigued.

Ortegas just deserves better than funny quips and one-liners. Good actress, lots of potential for a compelling character, but often the writers make her a one-off comic relief source.

I am intrigued by the missed possibility mentioned above that the memory loss could have been an opportunity for Spock’s logical and deduction skills to shine, but I’m not clever enough to think just how. See y’all next week!

@Pikes Hair Bt it's OK for me to complain anyway and you can ignore me right? Don't mean to annoy you or anyone else but I can complainand wouldn't begrudge you from doing g so..and For the record..i liked the show wjen it has ACTUAL STRANGE NEW WORLDS..I liked every episode of season
1 except for the Finale episode 10 and that lame alien-free pirate episode serene squalor bullshit because all the other episodes in season 1 had ALIENS and or STRANGE NEW WORLDS in them!!..see what I mean?? Didn't you or anyone else think k with with title the lotus eaters would be an alien or alien anomaly?? But that's what i like and especially expect from Miss Beyer of all writers..have you not read any of her Trek books?

Did Ortegas actually go to her quarters? So roomy, looked a lot like Pike's cabin although I don't know why the doors would open for her there when Pike's away.

@J Fedora: "[A]t least Discovery by and large in its first two seasons aimed to be 'about' something--something a lot of people didn't like, admittedly, but one thing you couldn't say was that it was content to just wander around."

But for those (including me) who didn't like that "about something" business, we would have preferred it just be content to wander around.

"And I agree 10 eps is too few."

The food is terrible—and such small portions!

@Leif

“Didn't you or anyone else think k with with title the lotus eaters would be an alien or alien anomaly“

No, because it’s a line from a very famous piece of literature that isn’t about aliens. And technically it was an anomaly that made people lose their memories. This is why I’m pointing out it seems you just don’t like the show.

Her Trek books are irrelevant to this show.

Season 1 only had 5 episodes that actually contained a literal strange new world. And the only ones that fully delivered and were about that premise were episode’s one, two, and six, two of which weren’t particularly “alien” feeing or “anomalous”. In fact I’m not sure they encountered a single space anomaly last season.

Maybe the comet one was mostly anomalous, which imo is the one episode that has really fully delivered on the show’s title in the most literal sense.

I hate the smirky quips from Ortegas: "No presh." "Absofriggenlutely." And so on and so forth. But more than that, I hate her hideous hair style. I think if they gave her more attractive hair...it could be quirky, futuristic, or whatever...just not ugly...and a more professional demeanor, she would not be so grating. And then they should give her some decent writing that respects the character.
Melissa Navia is really not being treated well in this series.

If you think my ideas about her hair are silly, just remember what a difference it made for Ben Sisko/Avery Brooks in DS9. Once he shaved his head and had the facial hair, he just rocked that role. Before that--clean-shaven and with hair on his head--he just looked like any ordinary guy. Meh.

Honestly I hate watch follow this show and I am glad some are speaking more about character design. its like this big elephant in the room many dont want to address because online forum will easily ban you for been sexist or misogynist when none of that is true.

I hope jammer does not erase this post as I feel it is important as a long term trekkie.

What is up with Ortega's hair? she looks awful, the actress is quite pretty but it is clear this show has an ambition to make most of the women appear more masculine. And it is based on two things.

1. Modern feminism that don't like the male gaze.

2. Blur the gender appearance of men and women to make the show more inclusive for transgender and non binary people.

its like it is now a crime for women to be ultra feminine or even ''sexy'' in nu trek.

Uhura used to be my favourite character form TOS and I find it hard to watch her here because the actress is so darm miscast in the role and it does not help she too has an awful haircut like Ortega that does nothing to flatter the actress face.

As a black geek fan, we hardy saw beautiful feminine black women in fantasy or sci-fi. Uhura was one of the very few we had and I feel the show has erased it.

uhura is meant to be beautiful like Princess leia beautiful, sorry not sorry for saying so but one of uhura's traits was that she was beautiful even by Vulcan standard and men were meant to find her physically desirable based on her appearance and on this show SNW I cannot even tell if she is meant to be a boy or girl. She is so masculine looking.

Maybe I can give Ortega a pass but Uhura is a legacy character, that is hard to forgive.

the only female character they let be cute is Chapel, a white girl? so much for the so called progressive society, the creators keep raving about since all the women of colour in snw are all masculine appearing and have zero male gaze.

I also noticed Uhura gets the least screen time in SNW and she is the least talked about female character, which is kind of hilarious since in TOS she is arguably the leading female character and was the most popular. However I do think it is because the creators of the show know they made a mistake in the casting and don't know what to do with her.

I wish they will recast the actors for kirk, uhura and maybe ortega too because the actress is just annoying.

season 2 seems average to meh so far and that is deserved.

Ortegas needs a new haircut. She also needs an event to humble her. Her character needs an arc.

She is clearly a huge fan of the show and very passionate but they need to give her a chance.

Otherwise they should find a strange new world and leave her there.

@boy

“What is up with Ortega's hair? she looks awful, the actress is quite pretty but it is clear this show has an ambition to make most of the women appear more masculine. And it is based on two things.“

Oh please just shut up with this crap. Starts with the parroted “I fear I’ll be labeled sexist” and then proceeds to say objectively sexist talking points.

“modern Feminism that don’t like the male gaze”

Oh no all the women on the show aren’t treated as objects! How terrible for you! You don’t find the characters on the show to be attractive? That’s contrary to the opinions of a majority of this shows fanbase. And either way it’s absolutely irrelevant.

These are all massive projections that don’t judge the show on its actual merits. Did you miss in this past episode when La’an got actually wounded and was incapacitated for half the episode, which goes against the typical nutcase outcry as what qualifies as “woke” regarding every single thing that gets put out these days. The “woke” thing to do would be to have her be a badass the whole time while Pike and M’Benga both suffer wounds and get incapacitated the whole episode. Yet that isn’t what happened, is it?

Uhura gets screen time in almost every single episode of the show and has even had a whole episode where she was the focal point, which cannot be said for Chapel or Ortegas. It couldn’t be said for Una until this season. And I know for a fact she has an episode this season. We objectively know more about Uhura as a person than we ever did before in Strange New Worlds alone than we did for the entire rest of Trek’s history, yet you’re saying the show is bad because she doesn’t have long hair. Please.

I’m wondering if “quippy” Ortega is an attempt to Orville-ize the show. The Orville’s reputation of doing Trek better than Trek may have led the showrunners to think “maybe we should have a quirky character that’s snarky/funny too!”

And regarding Trek fans being nit-pickers: holy moley, that’s almost the DEFINITION of Trek fandom! I grew up watching TOS in the 70s and we had a local fan club that would get together once a week to spend a whole evening discussing & picking apart ONE episode! Obsession with details lead to the 1970s Enterprise Blueprints set & the original Star Trek Technical manual. Go back and read David Gerrold’s “The World of Star Trek” or Jaqueline Lichtenburg’s “Star Trek Lives” and Joanie Winston’s “The Making of The Trek Conventions” and you’ll see the obsessive nature of the Trek fan goes back to the very beginning—and it’s why Trekkies/Trekkers have always had a certainreputation even within the general sci-fi fan community. It’s why new fans will come to this site and write “essays” under reviews that are YEARS old.

Perhaps because the idea of what Trek stands for appeals to so many (especially those of us who, as “nerds”, felt like outsiders), & the passion for “our” show to be done RIGHT, it drives us crazy when we think it’s being done “wrong”. There’s a lot of good writing in tv/ streaming these days but not a whole lot of it seems to be making its way into the Star Trek franchise—it’s very hit & miss. When a franchise is this old, retooling it for a modern audience while keeping its original flavor is a tough assignment, but it can be done.

Some of you need to spend some time seriously seriously reflecting on your views of women and gender. Have you ever gone back and watched mainstream cinema prior to 2010? If you think that modern cinema is trying to address sexism, you're right. And the reason is obvious if you just stop thirsting and actually engage with the idea that there has been inequity in entertainment since fucking Homer.

@Pike’s Hair

dont tell me to shut up, i have an opinion.

Also what makes you think it is about treating women as sex object? it is funny that spock is very sexulised on the show that he gets love scenes and the show hypes Pike as a sexy captain but some how most of the women are made to be masculine?

there is nothing wrong is styling a girl to look her best when she is on tv. that is a very good thing. that is not been a sex object, that is just been human at their most natural.

modern feminism approach where we have to make women look very masculine and give them ugly manly butch hair cut like ortega because anything but that is seen as sex object is just wrong and not reality.

i grew up in the 90s and I saw feminine girls still be great characters and had great beauty too and were not ''sex object''. I am not asking for porn or even hbo show. I am just asking for ultra feminine looking girls that both boys and girls will admire.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know this show does poor in ratings. paramount gives away free episodes away for free and one of the reason why this show has low ratings is because the character design for this show is quite bad for the women. Even Laan looks hard and rough compared to her fairy tale counterpart in Season 1 episode 8.

Many people are not going to watch a show where they cannot tell who is meant to be the male or female. that is not sexism that is just logic.

Also it is delusional to assume a character been attractive does not help their popularity, i notice in this show, chapel is very popular and guys always say she looks cute. well that is why she is popular and you know what? that is natural, it is human been human.

One of the killers of nu trek is the modern feminisms approach they show uses. it killed discovery and it is hurting snw.

Also know uhura gets little screen time and if she does, clealry it is foretgabble because i dont see anyone bring her up on fan forum discussion. she is the least popular female on the show and i think the reason is because she over-masculinised.

Also we have had two light skin uhura be the complete package of been beauty and brains. this show had a chance to cast a dark skin uhura with the complete package and they chose to make her look like a androgynous little boy?

talk of racism because it exposes how they truly feel about dark skin black women.

lastly, who care if you know more about uhura than you have in SNW when they have removed very important trait of the character that was celebrated and ground breaking.

Because godforbid, we cannot learn more about uhura without her loosing her femininity and beauty too.

Uhura is outshined by other girls on the show. Chapel in particular and part of the reason is because the show is trying to subtly pass her off as a non binary character and the show runner clearly don't like the fact that uhura was known for her good looks.

Go watch TOS and see how beautiful Nichelle Nichols was and come back and tell me if you see any resemblance in this ''younger version'' of her in snw.

Beyond what can be said for and against Ortegas in terms of acting/direction and writing, I see her as occupying a similar niche as Tig on Discovery. The showrunners want both these actresses to build upon who they essentially are as real people and work toward their strengths rather than mold them into something else entirely -- namely some idealized or more traditional notion of feminine beauty. Because as we should all know by now, SNW and Nu-Trek in general isn't really about taking us into some fantastical escapist future (aside from the window dressing), it is very much rooted in the day so that it can be try to be topical and directly speak to modern everyday concerns, with deliberately modern-styled characters that don't let us forget about it. So I think it cannot simply be reduced to "woke" storytelling or representation. It goes broader than that; it's a whole state of mind that thinks it has a better recipe than what's come before about how to do science fiction storytelling that is obvious and impactful, whose meanings and intentions cannot be missed by even the most casual and ordinary of viewers since it so unmistakably speaks to their own everyday observations and concerns. I may not entirely agree with this (at least when it goes 100% in that direction -- it's been more of a mix of approaches in the past) but I'm trying not to be too snarky about it. I'm just calling it like it is.

@boy
"Its like it is now a crime for women to be ultra feminine or even ''sexy'' in nu trek. "
hahaha
Only 12 days to the Barbie movie! :D

@boy

The women in the show do not at all look “masculine” and constantly insinuating the opposite to own the feminists makes your “opinion” look ridiculously sexist. And the ONLY way anyone could watch any Star Trek show and even remotely think about this is a personal issue with themselves and not one objectively discussing the show on its subject matter. Spock is being sexualized in what way? He has a relationship with his girlfriend? Chapel’s only defining character trait is that she is pining for Spock. There is NOTHING AT ALL about that which screams “modern feminism.” You are wrong on every single level about this.

Instead of suggesting I oogle Nichelle Nichols, how about you tell me something about Uhura’s character that has any story importance to her in TOS. Tell me a character arc, or name one episode where she is the undisputed focal point of the story and whether or not you gained any real deeper insight on some sort of level on who she is as a person.

Go ahead. I’ll wait.

Why can't women just be happy inside the refrigerator?

@lizzzi, I have zero problem with Ortegas's quippy slang. But I do agree that her hairstyle is horrendous. Really tough look for her there.

I like Uhura's hair though.

Jadzia changed her hair.

I think Ortegas could change hers.

Many of us wanted "Strange New Worlds" so in the mattter of strange we can't complain regarding this episode.

I did not really like the episode but I still give it credit for a good peice. It was to talky. But I recognise the pholiosphical apprach. It ust did not work perfekt.

Regarding Ortegs, I really get the feeling that here role is to be a sidekick. It is also my opinion that she is doing that well. I do agree with those that complain that she mostly get "silly oneliners" and that the are just to "macho".

She got sligtly more space here and it was OK. But it stresses that she is a person just wanting to be a viritouse flying a spaceship but with dreams. Now she almost got the chanse to go away but att the end she was needed on the bridge.


Her apperance .... come on guys.
Yesterday I went to a small open air concert with some more exprimental music. Ortega looked wery much like one of the good girls just coming from the office compared with some of the ladies both in tha band and the audience.

All I'm saying is, no one is criticizing Spock's unsexy bowl cut. Chekov was made up to look like Davy Jones, not much better than a bowl cut. Picard is bald. Data has olive/silver skin. No one ever brings these points up when critiquing Star Trek. Strange...

It just dawned on me that Ortegas might be a stand-in for Chekov. Maybe it was the Russian-like fur hat she wore but suddenly I saw the similarities.
Works at the helm (a pilot instead of Navigator)
Youthful enthusiasm
High confidence
Smart-assery and slang lol
Minority relevant to the time (an androgynous Latinx in place of a Russian while the Cold War was going on)
Being on the shorter side
A wild haircut that's "in style" for younger viewers (gen Z "chaos mullet" in place of a Monkees cut)
I know there's more

The big eyebrows and big brown eyes

*thick eyebrows

Yeah, Ortegas is the FAAB Chekov. lol

Yeah, Ortegas is Chekov. Lol

So that did post. Wish we could delete repeated comments

Not to mention an editing feature. That all could've been one comment.

Oh, and nothing that I said has a negative connotation, it's just a funny observation. And I don't mind her being the next Chekov.

Also, Ortega's "mantra" sequence reminded me of "Just keep swimming" from Finding Dory where the titular character had a form of Amnesia.

So....what was the reason they made a forced evac of that planet 5 years ago? Who killed two of the crew? Dudes with spears? Surely once they left the planet they would have researched it and found out about the memory thing and what caused it. It took Spock two seconds to tweak the shields.

Also why did they go into the debris field rather than just move away a few hundred million kilometers. Not like it makes much difference if they need a quick rescue.

None of this makes any sense to me.

Ortegas, is she the Neelix of SNW? Maybe she’s the Jadzia of this series? There’s still hope for her but she desperately needs better writing and more dimensions.

I’m trying to see where she fits in. At least she’s better than the side cast of Discovery. But that’s a low bar. They’re at least attempting to make this an ensemble show.

Weakest episode of the season for me. Very TOS with strong echoes of The Cloud Minders. They have an interesting idea about memory (one explored better in Dark City) but it feels like they didn't quite crack the story.

I did like that we finally have the crew back together. I've long argued that The Walking Dead undermined its storytelling when it started breaking up the cast and only using a few characters per episode. That can work on occasion, but three episodes in a row was too much.

Side note: The episode was directed by The Blair Witch's Eduardo Sanchez.

regarding Ortegas, presumably the least developed character on TOS: first of all, just to make it clear: IMO it's not a "crime" to be an underdeveloped character in Trek. TOS went for three seasons and we still didn't know much about Sulu or Checkov, not to mention Uhura. And that was fine, because that was TV in the 60's. 60's TV wasn't about character development for the most part, it was about professionals doing their job. The focus was about the story, not the character. Roddenbery came from western and cop shows and that was the style he knew. TOS wisely focused on the three main characters, but even then, what can you really tell me about Bones in the context of the show? That he's a really good doctor and a really good friend of the captain? The most developed character was undeniably Spock.

Jump ahead 60 years and we're in a new era. Now character needs to have arcs and we need to know what makes them tick. Did they have an unhappy childhood? Did their daddy hit their mummy? Did a bat once crashed through the window into their room and now they have a trauma of flying?

Personally I'm fine with Ortegas being an undeveloped character. I don't need super developed characters on Trek. What I need, and look for, are characters that make me buy that they're a part of Starfleet. That there is something that outs them above us mere mortals. That they are professionals. The problem with Ortegas and how she's written and performed is not that she's underdeveloped, it's that she doesn't come through as professional to me, not with her quips, her attitude and her smirks. She doesn't need to be serious 100 percent of the time, but just pass off as, you know, not just a really good pilot, but also as a really good starfleet officer. This takes finesse which the writing here doesn't possess as of yet.

And yeah, I have to admit, when I firest saw Ortegas on the show I wasn't sure if she's a male or a female, later when I realized she's a female, I was sure she's gonna be the token queer/non-binary character for SNW. When that didn't pan out (at least not yet, we know nothing of Ortegas sexual preferences), I realized she's just a regular girl with a horrible, masculine haircut.
Be that as it may, I'm fine with that, and can get used to that. As long as the character is written in a way that makes me believe that she's part of this world, I don't mind if she's bald and has a beard. But her horrible quips simply take me out of the show. It feels too modern and too out of place, and it doesn't feel like things that an officer on the bridge of the Enterprise would say.

@ lynos. Ironically it was when I saw the promo photos of celia gooding that I did not know if she is meant to be male or female talk less of uhura. Celia is queer - non binary. They should never have cast her to play uhura. She mostly looks like a boy. Ortega hair cut is awful it is almost torturing to star at.

@Lynos

Generally the casting on SNW has been excellent. We have Mount, Romijn, Bush, Chong, Olusanmokun, and we had Horak until they gave him the boot. Peck isn't the worst version of Spock. The most obvious casting misfire so far has really only been Wesley as NuKirk. Melissa Navia is also clearly a skilled actress who's unfortunately constantly being given dreck. It must be infuriating for her.

I think Gooding is an excellent actress who more than proved herself in S1 but who seems to have less and less to do in S2, which I don't understand.

Regarding the way the cast look I have always thought from the off that Gooding looks and acts absolutely nothing like Nichelle Nichols. The only resemblance is that she's a young black woman. But that's symptomatic of a wider casting blind spot in Hollywood and television regarding black actors and actresses and it certainly isn't surprising nor limited to SNW or Trek. It's also habitually done with Asian actors and actresses ('all look same') and isn't likely to change soon.

Note that none of that's not a criticism of Gooding as an actress or in her role as 'Uhura'. Likewise, Bush doesn't resemble Majel in the slightest either physically or in her acting style and it isn't a huge problem for me, although I always have to refer to Bush's character as 'Chapel' rather than Chapel.

Casting isn't SNW's weak spot in my view.

Sorry, that was really to @Happy,not @Lynos.

'Note that none of that's not a criticism of Gooding as an actress or in her role as 'Uhura'.'

Should of course be:
'Note that none of that's a criticism of Gooding as an actress or in her role as 'Uhura'.'

Autocorrect on my phone is a nightmare.

@Mister Darwin: "Weakest episode of the season for me. Very TOS"

It's a bummer to see how prevalent this dim view of TOS is!

@Bok R'Mor

I feel celia gooding has less to do because she is just not that popular or memorable. there is nothing going for her. she is not the greatest actress to get the attention and she is not the pretty girl either that could get the attention even if her acting is lacking.

. the creators pick on audience reaction and that has impact and the impact is here.

I have been a trekkie for almost 3 decades and if you had told me there would a trek show were nurse chapel would be more popular or desired by uhura, i would have laughed but here we are and this is down to to the casting.

let's just call it as it is, Gooding is no where near as beautiful as TOS uhura, in fact this is the first thing you notice that it becomes quite jaring and it takes you out of the show since you are meant to take her for a younger version of uhura and it does not work. Gooding should have been a new character.

paramount should have done better with casting, HBO House of dragon somehow managed to get the casting so right that the younger and older version of the characters looks exactly alike.

however hbo tends to put the artstry first, paramount seems to always put politics first and they end up with a mess.

the cast gooding in the role because she was queer and non binary and androgynous when they should have gone for an actress who looked more like Nichols that was very feminine.

i also think they went for gooding because they did not want her to outshine Chapel like she did in TOS, sadly they should have known this will have a big impact on the character beyond the other girls.

Anybody who knows nothing about star trek is going to watch SNW for the first time and have zero clue of what made Uhura such a ground breaking black female character. Gooding is that miscast in the role.

The most popular and talked about female characters of the show are Chapel and Laan and that makes sense since they are at least given the appearance of feminine looking girls even if Laan is always hard, angst and brooding, which tends to be more in line with masculinity personality.

@Boy
"Anybody who knows nothing about star trek is going to watch SNW for the first time and have zero clue of what made Uhura such a ground breaking black female character."
Nichelle Nichols was a groundbreaking characters because she was a female, black and a bridge officer in 1960 America, you ding dong. Not because she made your tinkle twinkle.

@Booming

True to what you said about Nichols, but she was also ground breaking because prior to that the mainstream media which was mostly white and still is had never really portrayed a beautiful black female character. Nichols made it okay for black women in mainstream media to be beautiful, sexy and desirable, traits that was only reserved for white women.

today's modern feminists hate the male gaze. they believe if a girl is pretty she would not be taken seriously, Also the last actor to play uhura was zoe saldana , a very beautiful and alluring afro latina woman, you can still see how beautiful she is even when she is green or blue in the Avatar and MCU GOTG movies.

its like SNW was so obsessed in erasing the idea that uhura been very attractive was one of her most obvious trait thanks to the past actresses who played her. They have taken it so far to the point that it breaks the 4th wall since the actress they cast looks more like a little boy.

i dont know how much you know about the gaming industry but there is still wave in western video games to make their female characters ugly on purpose, it got so bad that the asians video gamers started calling them out. why do video game female characters in USA look like men? Asians will always ask?

It is not about my tinkle twinkle but beauty is appreciated even TOS had an episode called is there no truth in beauty and on the show, Uhura been beautiful was mentioned by other characters even Spock.

today modern feminists that deliberately make female characters ugly dont get it that it hurts the game/tv shows.

call me shallow but at least i am less shallow than you because i can admit i rather look at a pretty character than a deliberately ugly one because someone is trying to push a feminist ideology that does not really work in a genre like fantasy or sci-fi that has a strong male audience.

they really dropped the ball her with uhura, i follow SNW-trek on reddit and many fan forums and she is basically non existent on that forum. This is uhura, we are talking about- she was the leading female character by the last star trek movie. threads are usually made about chapel and laan or even una NOT UHURA. you will not even know Uhura is on the show when she was the stand out female character in the 60s.


paramount sure wonders why on one watches the show to the point they give away free episodes on youtube. well maybe they should not have made many of the women look like men including iconic legacy characters like Uhura.

One thing I have noticed is that people do come for me calling me sexist, however they have yet to disagree with me that uhura and ortega are very unattractive girls and the only reason why chapel is very popular is because she is pretty blonde girl.

as i said, the fact that this show did this to the black and latinx women, speaks volume of their so called progressive ideologies.

@boy
ok, lots to unpack here. I'm doing quantitative data analysis and have a degree in social science.
Almost all of what you are saying is personal opinion based probably on perception and conformation bias and in part obviously wrong. Some of it is borderline incomprehensible
I will only point out the most glaring errors.

" Nichols made it okay for black women in mainstream media to be beautiful, sexy and desirable, traits that was only reserved for white women."
That is not true. TOS was made in the 1960s, not 1920s. There were already numerous attractive black actors and entertainers at that point. TOS was certainly not groundbreaking in that aspect.

You second paragraph is somewhat hard to comprehend. Yes, feminists dislike that women are often used or framed in a way that is just there to satisfy male heterosexual desires. It is a form of objectification. Feminists aren't opposed to women being beautiful. I'm not sure what Saldana has to do with anything.

"its like SNW was so obsessed in erasing the idea that uhura been very attractive was one of her most obvious trait thanks to the past actresses who played her."
I guess you think that the creators purposefully cast a woman that wasn't conventionally beautiful to... make feminists happy or because the show is made by feminists who dislike beautiful black women??

"i dont know how much you know about the gaming industry but there is still wave in western video games to make their female characters ugly on purpose, it got so bad that the asians video gamers started calling them out. why do video game female characters in USA look like men? Asians will always ask?"
Now we are talking about the entire western gaming industry (or only the US gaming industry) being controlled by feminist values who want women to look like men??? You observation is based on the views of Asian video gamers? What??????

"is there no truth in beauty"
Interesting to mention an episode in which Uhura barely has any lines. She says less than 20 words. Truly empowering.

"call me shallow but at least i am less shallow than you because i can admit i rather look at a pretty character than a deliberately ugly one because someone is trying to push a feminist ideology that does not really work in a genre like fantasy or sci-fi that has a strong male audience. "
Those all powerful unified feminists forcing global media conglomerates into turning all the women into ugos because they hate the male gaze. Sure...

". you will not even know Uhura is on the show when she was the stand out female character in the 60s."
The fact that she was the only female regular on TOS made it probably fairly easy to be the stand out female character.

"paramount sure wonders why on one watches the show to the point they give away free episodes on youtube. "
You think that the show would be more successful if the women were hotter. Not better stories or better acting?? And is the show unsuccessful?? Lots of assumptions based on them giving out free episodes somewhere.

"well maybe they should not have made many of the women look like men including iconic legacy characters like Uhura."
Maybe, maybe not. Aren't three of the five female regulars conforming to feminine beauty standards?? And SNW Uhura doesn't look like a man, she looks masculine to some degree.

"One thing I have noticed is that people do come for me calling me sexist, however they have yet to disagree with me that uhura and ortega are very unattractive girls and the only reason why chapel is very popular is because she is pretty blonde girl."
I'm confused, if the feminists control the show and hate beautiful women then why do they have a pretty blond girl? Also beauty standards are always shifting and the younger generation seems to appreciate more androgynous body standards (Zendaya for example) which we had already in the 1980s. Most famous example was Grace Jones. In the end this seems to all boil down to your personal view that more hot women translates to better ratings.

"as i said, the fact that this show did this to the black and latinx women, speaks volume of their so called progressive ideologies. "
Really having a twist there at the end. So the feminists who hate beautiful women are also racist because the black and latinx characters are not conforming to traditional norms of feminine beauty. Let me tell you one thing about men, there are enough out there who find both Ortegas and Uhura hot.

Dude, your thoughts are like a maze with no solution. Your warped view of the world and it's power dynamics are completely removed from reality.

@Booming
'And SNW Uhura doesn't look like a man, she looks masculine to some degree.'

A woman with short hair is still simply a woman with short hair. Short hair doesn't make a woman 'masculine'. This is rather regressive stereotyping (in 2023!). Does long hair make a man 'feminine'? Hardly. I don't ever recall anyone saying Rios or Ash Tyler (for example) looked 'feminine'.

Gooding looks like what she is: a woman with short hair. Navia looks like what she is: a woman with a severe haircut.

Women with short hair are hardly unusual in Trek (just off the top of my head: Yar, Kira, even the older Uhura). This has never been an issue before and I'm puzzled that it's even becoming an issue here.

@Bok R'Mor
Women can look masculine, men can look feminine. That is not regressive stereotyping. This Uhura iteration looks !to some degree! masculine and not just because of the short hair.

@Booming
'This Uhura iteration looks !to some degree! masculine and not just because of the short hair.'

What else then?

@Bok R'Mor "Women with short hair are hardly unusual in Trek"

No kidding. Ilia from Star Trek The Motion Picture was bald and prominently featured on all of the marketing at the time.

It can be argued that there are a lot of stupid haircuts on Star Trek. I like Captain Pike's hair but I would respect if somebody said it was too much for a captain.

@Booming

Because the actor is non binary. Gooding identify as both a man and a woman. that is why she looks masculine to some degree.

Well I don't care what her gender status her. However Uhura is meant to be a very feminine female character.

In TOS, Nichelle was opted for feminine clothing and styling for uhura. she even chose the name uhura that was meant to be uhuru because uhura was more feminine.

nichols once said uhura was like a female version of spock.

femininity and uhura go hand in hand, the show should not have cast a non binary actress and styled her to be masculine.

they know what they are doing. they wanted audience to see uhura as both a man and a woman.

No short hair does not make a girl masculine however the buzz hair near bald hair shave cut uhura has is the most masculine looking hair cut for a female to have. majority of women don't look bald or near bald that is why we don't see most women with it.


extreme feminism of trying to turn women into men just needs to stop with already established legacy characters.

Haven't thought much about the Uhura character on SNW -- she's been largely unremarkable and outshined by Una, La'an, Chapel, and even Ortegas (in the wrong way). But I didn't realize until skimming some of the prior discussion that Goodiing may not consider herself to be female. So casting such a person as Uhura is a big mistake. Uhura on TOS was a ground-breaking character. Her femininity was one of her main characteristics. NN deservedly earned a ton of respect for her portrayal of Uhura. And coming to think of it, I'd say the Gooding version of Uhura does not at all have that feminine charm NN brought to the Uhura character on TOS.

That being said, I think both "Lynos" and "boy" have made some good comments about SNW's Uhura and its casting in general. TOS was not focused on broad character development other than with the Big 3. So that leaves a lot of room for SNW to interpret secondary characters like Chapel and Uhura. But not respecting one of the main characteristics of TOS Uhura with casting Gooding sounds like some virtue-signalling at the expense of integrity to Trek. If they want to cast Gooding, make her another character.

As for Jess Bush's portrayal of Chapel, initially I didn't like it but it's getting tolerable I think. Barrett was a terrific actress - not just for her role as Chapel and I don't think Bush is anywhere near that talented.

And I agree with "Lynos" that it's just a matter of time before Ortegas is determined to be a lesbian, queer or some non-binary character. That haircut is just so bad... Somebody made a good point that Ortegas is basically SNW's Jett Reno.

@Bok R'Mor
I think she has somewhat masculine facial features.

@boy
"they know what they are doing. they wanted audience to see uhura as both a man and a woman."
So what are "they" doing? Trying to trick you into giving in to your homosexual urges??

"extreme feminism of trying to turn women into men just needs to stop with already established legacy characters."
That's a new one. Yes, those damned extreme feminists always trying to turn women into men. You heard it here first, people.

@Rahul

Thank you Rahul. that means a lot to me. i have tried to make this comment on places like reddit and trek bbs and i have been banned there and been called a racist or sexist. when I am a black woman who origins is from west africa. I seem to be noticing how hollywood recently keeps portraying black women as masculine and undesirable compared to their white female counterparts.

As a black woman, yeah i see the the virtue signalling. they knew what they were doing when they went for gooding as uhura. they wanted to make sure she does not outshine anyone when NN did just that and yes the fact that gooding does not see herself as a woman and goes by the they/them pronouns should have lifeguard her from the role but this creators wanted to make uhura non binary that is why they screwed the integrity of star trek and cast her anyway.

NN was very ferninime, you cannot go back from that and am i even asking that the show cast actress based on who is the prettiest? no. but at least cast an actress that represent the ultra femininity uhura NN brought to the role.

SNW has done a lot of damage to uhura's legacy, the fact that she is been outshined by Chapel and Una should tell all trek fans something went wrong with the casting considering uhura is the only female member of TOS that was part of the core 7 characters by the time the tos era was over and is one of the most recognise female characters in science fiction.

Kirk
Spock
Scotty
Sulu
Uhura
Checkov
Bones/Mccoy

Based on SNW, I don't buy Uhura is meant to be core part of the core 7.

I see it as not so much virtue signalling but overlapping box-checking without considering the full implications of the overlap.

boy said:

"call me shallow but at least i am less shallow than you"

Oddly just the sort of thing a shallow person would say

Go throw mud at somebody else dude, we've seen it all round here

And if we're talking hairdos.... I defy anyone to tell me that Nurse Chappel's hairdo in TOS isn't one of the worst affronts ever to the human eye.

Ok, I exaggerate, but really, what were they thinking? Even with that beehive on Yeoman Rand's head, Nurse Chappel takes the cake.

And now I have succeeded in deterioreting the discussion, but hey, people were talking about women and their hair.... it had to be said.

I was not yet even a twinkle in my parents' eyes when TOS was on the air, but I always thought Yeoman Rand was hot; and I like the old Nurse Chapel's hair better than this current Chapel's haircut, which looks a bit limp and possible fried from bleaching. I guess I just appreciate Sixties styling, which for some reason looks better to me than the similarly voluminous but IMO much uglier hairstyles girls had when I was a teenager in the late Eighties.

@boy: "let's just call it as it is, Gooding is no where near as beautiful as TOS uhura, in fact this is the first thing you notice that it becomes quite jaring"

I dunno, man: I think this is your personal hangup. Other people here may express outrage that we would even engage in rating/comparing actors' looks, but I personally have no problem with it. It's just that I don't agree with you! I'm looking at pics of both of them right now, and while I would probably have to go with Nichols by a hair, it's pretty close. On a ten point scale, maybe 8 vs. 8.25. [Reading further down, seems like even Booming disagrees: she's defending Uhura's right not to be "conventionally beautiful", which I think she actually is!] Zoe Saldana I would probably rate (you're going to lose it over this) more like a 7.5. I think you are just really hung up on hair length. I found Sinead O'Connor to be one of the most beautiful women in the world back in the Nineties, but I guess for you she would be ugly unless she put on a wig? I guess some of us can see facial (and body) beauty without needing long hair to "activate" it like you do.

@Bok R'Mor: "A woman with short hair is still simply a woman with short hair."

Thank you! I have definitely noticed that there is widespread and very stark disagreement on this point. I already mentioned Sinead O'Connor; I also have always liked when pretty women wear a pixie cut, while I regularly see comments from some men who think a female actor immediately becomes ugly when she gets one of those fashionable 'dos. And it's not that I like "masculine" features on women: I am actually more turned off than most if they have square jaws or that sort of thing. I like pretty, petite, feminine facial features complemented by short hair (although longer hair can be okay too).

@MidshipmanNorris

every humanbeing is shallow to some degree. the people that admit it are the least shallowest because they can at least admit it. nothing been shallow in keeping things real and guess what? SNW is a hollywood tv show, when a girl is ugly, masculine or unattractive she will be outshined by other girls who are not that is a fact. saying it is not shallow, it is been real.

uhura has been in some episodes in season 2? does anyone ever bring it up or remembers that?


I heard episode 6 is an uhura focused episode? would be interesting to get through that because i think she looks worse than ortega in terms of character design and i see all the complaints about oretga looking terrible in this episode.

@SlackerInc

i am not saying i am against baldness, however i can see it as a very masculine style and does not fit most women.

will smith slapped chris rock for calling jada bald, such a shame since jada looks good bald. gooding does not look good bald. there is a difference. the bald cut should not be put on girls that dont look good in it.

SNW is a hollywood tv show, they hire hair and make up people that are meant to style actors to look their best on tv unless there is context to why they don't look good like a show like ugly betty.

Its like paramount hired hair and make up people that deliberately went out of their way to tone down how beautiful the women actually can be because they hate male gaze. Even Laan double braid is quite bad and makes her look harsh.

Gooding is just the worst. the bald hair cut does not suit her because she has a very short neck and a round face and she still has a lot of baby fat on her body. her upper body is bulky. any hair stylist knows shaving her head is not a good fitting for that kind of body type. celia looks butch on the show.

Also the uniform are terrible on the females. they are too boyish. the unisex uniform does not suit the female and even the long sleeves short gown looks ridiculous and shapeless on them.

I wonder if these folks would have cast celia gooding as Michael Burnham in discovery . The answer will be no. Hollywood is clever when they want a female centric main character. They go for very pretty slim beauty girls. This show is no different. No one wants to say it but I think one of the reasons they went for a much younger masculine looking uhura was to make sure people invest in the chapel tpring and spock story line. It is also the reason they had to change chapel this much that she has little in common with majel barret chapel. If this show stuck to tos lore and we got a very sexy beautiful uhura that guys crushed on. Many will wonder why spock is in a cw network Dawson creek love triangle with chapel and tpring when he can just get with uhura who in tos was deemed more beautiful and likeable than the other girls. They cast celia gooding in the role to make sure people don't see uhura as a romantic potential to spock or even kirk since we know in Hollywood the unconventionally homely girls don't get romances. And before anyone brings up spock and uhura were never a Cople in tos. May I also remind you that spock said he had not see tpring since he was 7 and was not aware chapel had a crush on him and it was one sided. So this show has bent canon. Sad because this show could have given spock the love triangle he is in with chapel and tpring and still have cast a very gorgeous feminine actress as uhura but that would have been too much of a threat.

@happy

''I wonder if these folks would have cast celia gooding as Michael Burnham in discovery . The answer will be no. Hollywood is clever when they want a female centric main character. They go for very pretty slim beauty girls. This show is no different.

No one wants to say it but I think one of the reasons they went for a much younger masculine looking uhura was to make sure people invest in the chapel tpring and spock story line. It is also the reason they had to change chapel this much that she has little in common with majel barret chapel.

If this show stuck to tos lore and we got a very sexy beautiful uhura that guys crushed on. Many will wonder why spock is in a cw network Dawson creek love triangle with chapel and tpring when he can just get with uhura who in tos was deemed more beautiful and likeable than the other girls.

They cast celia gooding in the role to make sure people don't see uhura as a romantic potential to spock or even kirk since we know in Hollywood the unconventionally homely girls don't get romances. And before anyone brings up spock and uhura were never a Cople in tos. May I also remind you that spock said he had not see tpring since he was 7 and was not aware chapel had a crush on him and it was one sided. So this show has bent canon.

Sad because this show could have given spock the love triangle he is in with chapel and tpring and still have cast a very gorgeous feminine actress as uhura but that would have been too much of a threat''.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. hence why they don't want uhura to outshine anyone.

I just think they took it to far.

Still just not seeing this "masculine-looking" claim about Gooding:

https://virginradio.co.uk/tv-film/56062/first-look-at-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-and-celia-rose-gooding-as-uhura

https://www.instyle.com/celebrity/celia-rose-gooding-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-interview-2022

To me Cobie Smulders (SHIELD agent Maria Hill in the MCU) and Tricia Helfer (the Cylon Baltar sees in his head on BSG) have much more masculine looks, due to their prominent jawlines--even though both are widely seen as beautiful women.

@SlackerInc

Gooding look different when she is not in costume.

I will not say she is an alluring beauty like Nichols, however she can look great when styled well. she is styled so poorly and again, non binary actors should not be the first option to play feminine roles of the character is meant to be very womanly.

Gooding's uhura does not work on camera and in the costume.. You can tell from in snw that the ''hot girl'' is meant to be chapel. the only thing is uhura was the ''hot girl'' in tos.

In TOS Lincoln called Uhura and I say this in quote because it is offensive ''charming negress'', which he indeed thought would be offensive when he sees Uhura for the first time and charming means an attractive girl.

I mean in this age of post me too and times up. Lincoln will probably be seen as a sexual harasser because men are no longer allowed to tell women they are pretty, charming, lovely in a working environment. this is also why hollywood masculinizes many women now.

@SlackerInc oh, yeoman Rand was definitley cute. Her hairstyle was outragous but it only added to her charm.
Chappel's hairstyle on the other hand was just plain ugly. Looks like a nest of some exotic bird, to me, at least.

@boy I think Hollywood in general is much less glamorous than it used to be. The 60's were perhaps the last glamour decade of Hollywood. As the 70's came along, realism was the operative word. It took a while for this mindset to trickle into TV (we still had shows such as Charlie's Angels, which was glamour with a capital G.)

But it's a long, slow and undeniable process. The oscar winner from a few years back, Nomadland, had the main actress (Frances McDormand) defectating in a bucket.
I too miss the old days, what can I say. But TV today, even if the stories take place 300 years from now, goes for realism, so that means no overt glamorization of women. Could they have made Uhura more like the old Uhura? I guess so. but I think it's a tall order to expect them to care about this. They want to have their own party. The producers of these new Trek shows care mostly about representing modern sensibilities, and modern sensibilities call for tough, capable, and sometimes less overtly feminine women. I don't know why, but there's this idea that the two can't go together. So no mini-skirts, no cascading hair, and no flattering lighting or bright close-ups.

The times they are changing...

"SPOCK: You are certain this is not a violation of the Prime Directive, sir?

PIKE: A single asteroid changed the course of history on this planet for thousands of years. That's not natural development."

Yes, it's the very definition of natural development. I could easily support Pike saying something like "living without memory isn't living", or something like that.

"SPOCK: Your logic... feels sound to me."

I'm really starting to hate the way they are writing Spock. "feels sound"?

Pike's "logic" is nonexistent here.

"PIKE: Ready for some fancy flying, Erica? No one but you could pull this off."

No one? Not you? Not Una? Just give the damn order already.

"ORTEGA: Oh, you know I've got this."

How about "yes sir", or something resembling some modicum of military bearing and respect for the Captain?

I guess SNW is allowed a stinker? I was OK with this episode until we got

"I'm Erica Ortegas. I fly the ship.
I fly the ship?
I am Erica Ortegas. I fly the ship.
I am Erica Ortegas. I fly the ship.
I'm Erica Ortegas. I fly the ship."

I really feel sorry for Melissa Navia. I think she's a fine actress and they are giving her shit. Was this supposed to be an "Ortegas" episode?

I really didn't buy Zac ruling the planet.

I understand the haves and have-nots, but what are the laborers actually providing? Pike and La'an were beating rocks and M'Benga was sawing a log with a framing square? ... was this supposed to mean something that I'm missing?

Could the castle be any taller? This one makes Disneyland look like a plaza. I didn't see anything that would make me believe the population on this planet could build something like this.

I guess this is just a stinker... something that was to be expected when seasons used to include 22-24 episodes. But 10?

They need to address some things or they are going to lose me.

1. Una... she's supposed to be the best 1st officer in the fleet. We haven't seen her "commanding presence" enough to support that. She's been really good when she's given something to work with, but like in this episode... something happens and we don't hear from her again in the episode. She needs to be a more critical piece in this series.

2. Spock... right now, he's too much of an emotional mess. WAY too much "feeling" going on here. Chapel is supposed to have feelings, Spock isn't supposed to reciprocate. I don't like the snippyness of Ortega and Uhura when interacting with Spock either.

3. Military bearing... this is the flagship of Star Fleet... you wouldn't know it with how folks give and take orders. Yes, this is primarily directed at Ortega and Pike... to a lesser level at Uhura too.

I really enjoyed last week's episode... maybe because it didn't involve anyone but Kirk and La'an? I'm starting to feel that way.

Before I forget, I thought Reed Birney's performance as Luq was outstanding.

2 stars, because I'm feeling generous.

@boy
'You can tell from in snw that the ''hot girl'' is meant to be chapel. the only thing is uhura was the ''hot girl'' in tos.'

There is currently a relatively high-profile advertising campaign for Sky Showtime in the Scandinavian country in which I live. SNW features prominently on animated public advertising hoardings, LED billboards, etc., that cycle through character portraits as well as the main cast publicity portrait.

I've observed the cycle from start to finish many times now and it goes (1) Pike; (2) La'an; and (3) Ortegas (!), with the ensemble image in-between in which the visual focus is Pike, Spock and Una. It's set that way and is not dynamic. 'Chapel' is actually curiously greyscale on the ensemble image here - the only cast member on that image who is.

Now it may of course be the case that the advertising campaign is tailored to the local market here but the focus definitely isn't on 'Chapel' here at least.

What the hell have I just subjected myself to reading. Ay yi yi.

Celia Rose Gooding is hot. Deal with it.

Celia Rose Gooding's haircut is hot. Deal with it.

Celia Rose Gooding plays Uhura as a woman, not as "masculine," not as "non-binary." She has Nichelle's warmth, empathy, and good humor. She has her playfulness. She has her musical sensibilities. She even wears the skirt version of the uniform without the pants underneath sometimes like Nichelle liked to do, even when Nichelle was 60 and most women wouldn't any more, because that was part of being feminine to her.

Know whose portrayal of Uhura was EXTREMELY masculine? Zoe Saldana's. She was all "alpha." Hyper-driven. Objective oriented high-achieving, professional. Warrior-like. These are all MASCULINE traits. And not AT ALL like Nichelle portrayed Uhura. Where was her warmth, empathy, good humor? These are all "feminine" traits. Can you imagine Zoe Saldana's Uhura singing? No. Never.

But Zoe Saldana is objectively a better looking woman than Celia Rose Gooding. Hell, Zoe Saldana is a objectively a better looking woman than nearly all women. So you have no problem with Zoe Saldana's portrayal of Uhura and how far it is from "the character Nichelle created." Give me a break.

. . .

The point that Uhura should be more prominent on the show is, however, one I agree with. She has not had much to do at all in Season 2 so far, which is unfortunate. We should remember there have only been 14 episodes total so far and Ortegas and also Chapel (arguably) have had less over those 14 episodes, and Una is probably about tied. All we can really say then is that Pike, Spock, M'Benga, and La'an have been the best served characters by the show so far. But Uhura, as an extremely important legacy character, probably should get as much of a focus as Spock. I do agree with that. I hope things have "just worked out this way" so far and the back of the season is loaded with things for her character.

Uhura has little to do because she is forgettable. That is how TV show works. There are many characters on TV that were meant to be one off but became regulars on the TV show because they grew in popularity. This uhura has been uglyfied and people don't invest in uglyfied female characters. Sad but true.

Here's an interview with Celia Rose Gooding talking about Uhura's hair:

https://tvline.com/previews/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-uhura-hair-celia-rose-gooding-1234823449/

Here are quotes she said in this article:

“I think the first thing that people were really keeping an eye out for was that I chopped off all her hair, and I love it,” Gooding tells TVLine. “What was incredible with Nichelle’s Uhura and Zoe’s Uhura was that they had the epitome of what Black femininity was at the time.

"Now we’re in 2022, and I think the iconic short Caesar cut has been a thing for Black men for a long time, but we are slowly but surely as a community getting closer and closer to widening the ideals of what Black femininity looks like,” she adds. “Having an opportunity to take on the iconic character and still give her this layer of incredible grace… and also have her have this incredibly gorgeous short cut look — it just feels so right to me. Even with the Dora Milaje in Black Panther, their femininity was never questioned, but they all had real short cuts.

"Gooding notes that she is “craving to be a part of the representation I want to see in the world, and so it was very important for me to not put a wig on, to not have really long, straight, big curly hair. I could have a beehive, or I could have hair down my back, or I could have no hair and rock a bald cap, and I would still be the incredibly iconic feminine embodiment of Uhura that I think everyone is really excited to see.”

. . .

How many times in that interview does she use the word "feminine" or "femininity?" FOUR TIMES.

She isn't portraying Uhura as "masculine" or "non-binary." Her conception of the Uhura character is that she is extremely feminine. From her own mouth, there you go.

That doesn't jive with your idea of feminine, that is a "you" problem. Fashion comes and goes. This hair IS an en vogue black feminine hairstyle at the moment. See also: Christine Adams, Viola Davis, Danai Gurira.

@Jeffrey's Tube
'She has Nichelle's warmth, empathy, and good humor. She has her playfulness. She has her musical sensibilities.'

I'm pleased the discussion is moving away from superficialities and hairstyles but there is no way Gooding plays Uhura anything like Nichelle Nichols. What you're listing here are mainly Uhura's basic character traits, not anything to do with Gooding's (or for that matter Nichols') performance, with 'playfulness' and 'warmth' aside. Gooding plays Uhura like a very young 2023 twentysomething, all eye rolls and 'whatevers', because that's how the SNW Uhura is written.

I admire your steadfast determination to defend SNW from any and all criticism no matter what, but you've gone too far the other way pretending Gooding is anything at all like Nichols. Next you'll be telling us Jess Bush is 110% Majel 2.0.

Gooding is absolutely competent, but let's not kid ourselves that she's Nichelle Nichols. Please.

Full disclosure, I don't watch the show and just chipped in because some opinions became too sexist for me to overlook. That I found her facial features somewhat masculine could be down to the fact that some where calling her boyish which then primed me to look for these features.

Calling Saldana as exhibiting masculine behavior because she was "alpha" and assertive. I'm not sure that I agree with calling these traits masculine. The whole alpha, beta and omega thing is nonsense anyway.

I guess we would really need somebody from the dark arts aka gender studies to untangle what is what here because otherwise we will have an endless debate which would probably lead to nothing.

For the record, I think that there are more than enough men out there who find women like Uhura sexy or beautiful.
Beauty standards are region specific and constantly changing. For example, during the US occupation of Vietnam the most common cosmetic surgery was making eyeslids look more like western eyes/less almond shaped.

@Booming
'Full disclosure, I don't watch the show and just chipped in because some opinions became too sexist for me to overlook.'

I think you owe Jammer another coffee or five, then, if you're commenting on shows you don't even watch.

I don't actually disagree with most of your responses in this thread but 'not gonna lie' it was hilarious to see you launch into your usual condescending self-righteous Besserwisserei on the assumption that @boy was some thick Trump supporter only to abruptly clam up when @boy revealed that she, yes she, was actually a woman of West African origin.

Don't ever change, @Booming, you are highly entertaining as you are. We often agree, often disagree, but you always make me laugh.

@Bok R'Mor
"that @boy was some thick Trump supporter"
She still could be. Don't count that out yet!

"Don't ever change, @Booming, you are highly entertaining as you are. We often agree, often disagree, but you always make me laugh. "
:)

urgh, I am not a trump supporter. its crazy to think anyone is called a trump supporter because they ask why tv shows are trying to always make women (many times women of colour) appear more masculine.

Is america that divided that you are quickly called a trump supporter? here is what i think about trump. i think he should be in jail and never hold any kind of public office again. so there.

As I said, I am of african decent and it bothers me that when i look at many western tv shows in 2020s, they never portray the black female characters the way they portray the white female characters. usually the white female characters by default is always meant to be the pretty one, the lead, the one guys will crush on, the one who will get the most screen time and all the black character will be is her androgynous side kick. hollywood has been pulling this stuff since gone with the wind 1939.

i felt in the 90s and 00s we made some progress in how black women were been portrayed but extreme feminism in 2020s has made us go two step back again.

was it so bad to ask why cant uhura still be a highly beautiful attractive woman like the nichols and saldana version and still also get character development?

Wait till episode 6. you all will see how bad gooding styling is like ortergas

@Jeffrey's Tube

the gooding interview is giving me headache. she does not get it and she comes of as a typical entitled millennial- gen z actor who has little discipline for the craft.

it is not about her, she makes it all about her. what i think she needs is some Alfred Hitchcock schooling in how actors need to realise that they need to know the difference between themselves and the characters.

Gooding should never have been given the freedom to style herself as she wants for a role. it is not the job of the actor to decide how a character should look. they are actors hired to play a part not play themselves. any good stylist knows she looks terrible.

as i said, i am black and i don't know where she got the idea that many black women are bald. Most of them dont walk around with the bald hair cut anymore than white women do.

also it promotes bad stereotypes of black girls, that they cannot grow their hair like white girls, which is a very important feminine trait in women.

Honestly I wish they will just recast her and paul wesley as kirk. they both suck in the role. they are generic actors and dont have the charm of Shatner and Nichols to earn any iconic status.

@boy
'urgh, I am not a trump supporter. its crazy to think anyone is called a trump supporter'

It's something of a running joke here based on @Booming constantly bringing US politics/history into every single thread and at the same time stating she's the only left-wing poster here (thus everyone else is 'a thick Trump supporter') - no matter how often many of the rest of us also point out we're from the left, also from Europe, etc, etc.

This forum has sort of become @Booming's personal diary. She's a parody of an anti-American, painstakingly woke German academic. You'll get used to it. After a while it becomes very funny.

And she does come up with a lot of good points as well.

@Bok R'Mor

yes gooding has no similarities to uhura in attitude, its hilarious people praise SNW as the best trek yet when it is one of the worst in speech pattern and cannot rival TNG in dialogue, where you can tell adults are talking.

ortega's quipping, gooding try hard gen z style dialogue. i cringed in the first episode when she said ''cool''. like the show is trying to sell to the audience we are a cool series like the mcu. the don't show us, they tell us.

streaming trek has been trying to copy the marvel humor and marvel dialogue that even marvel is tired off. hence oretgea constant quipping.

however mcu does really masculinise their female characters and even when some women are bald in the mcu, there is context there.

"This forum has sort of become @Booming's personal diary. She's a parody of an anti-American, painstakingly woke German academic. You'll get used to it. After a while it becomes very funny."
:D

and @boy
Sorry, but on this forum it is the consensus that white heterosexual men are the most oppressed minority.

Stating the desire for Trump to be jailed is laughable considering what is in the WH right now. Where is the Epstien client list? Why aren't all those folks in jail?

Break...

Uhura.

They all show themselves while playing the character.

Nichelle was a goddess in my view. Both on an off the screen. Simple one of my favorite people of all time.

Zoe Saldana isn't "masculine", she's a Bronx Puerto Rican. Clearly on display with her portrayal of Uhura.

Celia Rose Gooding isn't either of those. She isn't a "striking beauty" like Nichelle and Zoe. I do like her, but I don't think she has been given the best material to work with... especially in season 2 so far. I liked the Hemmer/Uhura relationship but they went and killed off Hemmer. So now what? I guess we'll see. So she's an ensign now? I guess, they really never made an issue of it. I do love her voice.

@Boy

“Everyone on earth keeps pointing out that I am racist and sexist but I am the only one who thinks I am not, surely I am the only one who is correct out of all these people calling me out on my bs!”

-You. This also comes across as narcissistic.

You also have yet to name a single defining character trait of Uhura or anything the show covered about her where we gained deep insight about her as a person on TOS. Not one character arc. No description of who she is without talking about how she looks or her occupation on the ship. You keep zeroing on physical characteristics that are irrelevant to all of this. I’m still waiting for examples, but I know I won’t get any because none exist, and what little the show has to offer you don’t seem at all concerned with. You also are weirdly zeroed in on the idea that what they’re doing with Chapel on the show is some universally factual opinion shared by everyone. The only thing Chapel has gotten to do on the show is have the hots for Spock. She’s nowhere near as popular as Una, Uhura, and La’an on this show.

I wonder if you knew anything about Nichelle’s history on TOS as an actress. She almost left Star Trek and wanted to because she felt her appearance on the show was “token” and she got nothing of real story importance to do. She had to be talked out leaving by Martin Luther King Jr. and Gene Roddenberry. Because they hoped seeing a Black person on the show at the time would be enough to lead to a time where Black characters and actors could be judged not for their appearance or on their race in a negative light, but also be seen as valuable members of the show and community with purpose. All of this seems to be going completely over your head, so I figured it is worth mentioning. They incorporated Nichelle’s uncertainty in staying with Trek directly into Uhura’s character arc for SNW.

It’s also worth mentioning again for everyone’s sake, that Uhura has an episode this season that she is the focus of. It hasn’t aired yet. Reserve judgement for what they do with her this season after that episode has aired. They can’t dedicate all 10 episodes to any one character.

'Full disclosure, I don't watch the show'

So she's giving her opinion without having seen it? I don't think I've ever heard such a sexist caricature of a woman in my life. Edith Bunker has a competitor.

I hope Jammer decides to take some action against trolls. I can't imagine how he can be proud of this website when some deviant is using it for her blog.

Wait, Booming is a girl?

Whaaaaat

Lock her up! Lock her up!

@boy

"as i said, i am black and i don't know where she got the idea that many black women are bald. Most of them dont walk around with the bald hair cut anymore than white women do."

Do you really now know that a shaved head is a common look amongst women of color, especially in African countries?

It took me 5 seconds of googling "Bantu women" to find numerous photos of women with shaved heads like Uhura's.

(Uhura is Bantu per Gene Roddenberry's novel of TMP)

Anyone can claim to be anything they want on the internet. @boy can claim to be a West African black woman, but I, for one, am skeptical. For one, choosing the username "boy" is kind of a tell, bro.

Then there's the sexist comments, the general male horniness, and the overall ignorance of black culture.

So yeah. My rule when interacting on the internet is to extend the courtesy and respect of believing people when they tell us who they are, but in this case, I don't think I will.

@Jeffrey's Tube
'My rule when interacting on the internet is to extend the courtesy and respect of believing people when they tell us who they are, but in this case, I don't think I will.'

Remember that the next time you're first out the gate to gushingly promote, err, sorry, review the next SNW episode and you' re fending off claims of being a paid plant, shill, etc.

Goose and gander and all that, 'bro'.

@JT

"I, for one, am skeptical. For one, choosing the username "boy" is kind of a tell, bro."

Could someone who intends to trick people about their actual gender really be foiled by such an obvious tell? I would be more skeptical if their username was BlackBarbie. Anyway it is not uncommon for women in sci-fi circles to play down their gender or even misdirect; maybe Booming could provide us with the sociologically-informed reasons. Or maybe "boy" is just a butch thing.

@Bryan

I at long last have an opportunity to reveal that I am neither a daimon nor a telek. In fact, in a truly shocking plot twist, I'm not even Ferengi *or* Romulan! Sorry to disappoint everyone.

@Bryan
"maybe Booming could provide us with the sociologically-informed reasons."
I can! It's because of several layers of discrimination. *gasp*
Here are a few
- A publishing company might have thought that women were worse writers
- A publishing company might have thought that men wouldn't buy books from guuuuurls.
- Quite a few men wouldn't buy books from guuuurls because gaaay.
- Even if there is none of the above, it might have still been more comfortable to use a male pen name, just to be save. You never know...
- Even if you fear no discrimination it might still be more comfortable to be just a writer and not a female writer.

And so on and so on. :)

This board has become way too hostile lately.
It’s not that fun when it’s so toxic.

@boy

"every humanbeing is shallow to some degree. the people that admit it are the least shallowest because they can at least admit it. nothing been shallow in keeping things real and guess what? SNW is a hollywood tv show, when a girl is ugly, masculine or unattractive she will be outshined by other girls who are not that is a fact. saying it is not shallow, it is been real."

Your Social-Media-Inspired view of decorum notwithstanding, I'd posit that you may be in for a bit of a reality check yourself; "being real" is a philosophy of standing by what you say, keeping your word, being honorable. Not spouting the strongest impulse that you have in your head at the first available crowd of people whom might have some shred of understanding of the topic you're talking about. That is just poor impulse control.

And as for "every human being being shallow to some degree" that does not excuse it beyond a certain degree, and that is why we use a word that pertains to the concept of depth; too deep, and nobody will be able to follow what you're saying. Too shallow, and it won't be worth saying. But there are graduated levels to it, not just 1 or 0, yes or no, black or white.

Binary thinking is the worst kind of static mindset. A dynamic mindset is far more adaptable, though it must be constantly ready to change based on new information; however, this is the only way any of us grows or learns as a human being.

You have brought up some interesting points indeed, with this paragraph. I still think your manners are abominable, but the topics you raise here are without doubt forefront on my mind when reading what you're saying.

Here's a thought experiment; turn this reasoning upon your own viewpoints. You might find that your thinking about them becomes sharper when you reflect on them from several different perspectives, instead of just "forward or backward". Life (and Star Trek Commentary) is more than a fencing match, y'know.

I get that when you're fencing, the goal should be to constantly advance, but I feel like that's not what's intended by a comment section at a review site.

Mark me down as another who looks forward to seeing Trump in his prison jumpsuit. I don't love Biden, but he's nowhere near as bad. But I think we should try our best not to let this comment section become an extended politics pie fight like everywhere else on the Internet, so I will leave it at that.

Can someone tell me at approximately what time point in "The Menagerie" they talk about the mission where Zack was lost? I hadn't remembered this at all and now I'm curious.

@Yanks: Just a stinker? Hardly. There have been 14 episodes of this show, and there are only two I would rank higher: the series pilot, and the first season finale.

@Jeffreys Tube: "But Zoe Saldana is objectively a better looking woman than Celia Rose Gooding. Hell, Zoe Saldana is a objectively a better looking woman than nearly all women."

No, that's subjectively, "eye of the beholder". I don't agree. She's decent looking, but she and Thandiwe Newton (of "Westworld", among other things) have something about their faces that looks a little...skeletal, or something. FWIW to establish my taste, I would say right now the hottest woman in Hollywood is Camila Jones of "Daisy Jones and the Six". I guess I like a little bit of a fuller face, which is an asset of Celia Rose Gooding's.

I do agree with you that Gooding comes closer to Nichols' characterization than Saldana did.

@boy: "also it promotes bad stereotypes of black girls, that they cannot grow their hair like white girls, which is a very important feminine trait in women."

Maybe I'm not supposed to weigh in, as a straight white guy who only had one Black girlfriend back in college, but I have never thought it was attractive when Black "girls" straighten their hair. It just looks really fried, similar to a white woman who bleaches the hell out of it. (That one Black girlfriend had natural Afro kinky curls FWIW.) I always find some version of natural hair the most attractive, whether it's a big Afro or really short like Gooding's.

@Lynos: "Wait, Booming is a girl?

Whaaaaat"

A woman. People keep being surprised by this, which I find funny. I picked up on it a LONG time ago.

@Bok R'Mor: "Remember that the next time you're first out the gate to gushingly promote, err, sorry, review the next SNW episode and you' re fending off claims of being a paid plant, shill, etc.

Goose and gander and all that, 'bro'."

Yeah, I think that's a fair riposte. I defended @Jeffreys Tube against accusations of being a corporate shill, and I will extend the same courtesy to @boy. Any of us could be something other than what we say we are, but I think we all just have to be taken at our words or the whole enterprise breaks down. It's also a kind of ad hominem move to avoid having to deal with the substance of someone's argument.

@Bok R'Mor
Did you mean "a Telek"? i.e., the one "friendly" Romulan in the whole quadrant?

Liked the usage "painstakingly woke German academic"

That's Booming. Thumbs up to each of you...and please publish.

@Sigh2000
'Did you mean "a Telek"? i.e., the one "friendly" Romulan in the whole quadrant?'

I did, well-spotted! 'Telek' is actually his personal name and 'Doctor' is his title, of course.

I was watching 'The Battle' and 'Eye of the Needle' at the time I decided to start posting here, needed a username quickly and didn't put much thought or creativity into one. I actually tried the username 'Daimon Telek' for one post for the same reason, but I didn't like the sound of it.

I'm not actually that enamoured of the Ferengi or the Romulans, so it's not particularly representative of where I stand on Trek (although Dr Telek R'Mor is one of my all-time favourite guest characters).

@SlackerInc

"Can someone tell me at approximately what time point in "The Menagerie" they talk about the mission where Zack was lost? I hadn't remembered this at all and now I'm curious."

It's been a minute since I've watched those episodes so I cannot remember if the conversation made the cut for The Menagerie. However, I do remember when it happened in The Cage. It was during the scene where Pike and Boyce have a conversation in his quarters.

I found it on Youtube. Here's the link, timestamped & everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jo7Fu-3zas&t=83s&ab_channel=April5%2C2063

Rigel VII and a fight with a Kalar also get reenacted when the Talosians pull it from Pike's mind while he's captive on Talos IV. Pike again mentions what happened though with less detail. I found another youtube video for that scene. I guess some AI cleaned it up to 4k in this one? Looks a little fake but also kind of cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oeWPlhc_V4&ab_channel=TalesFromSYLRanchDARKROOM

. . .

I really love The Cage. It was the wrong kind of episode to be a pilot for a show like Star Trek, sure. But man that script it a banger.

(Also I kind of wish SNW would do a riff on those gray field jackets. I actually think they're really cool, though I'm probably the only one earth who does.)

@Jeffrey's Tube
Those are very helpful links, thanks. Like @SlackerInc, I too couldn't recall those references.

'I really love The Cage. It was the wrong kind of episode to be a pilot for a show like Star Trek, sure. But man that script it a banger.'

It's a fascinating episode and I do think that 'Among the Lotus Eaters' does an excellent job of capturing and expanding upon the relevant referances.

'(Also I kind of wish SNW would do a riff on those gray field jackets. I actually think they're really cool, though I'm probably the only one earth who does.)'

You're not! They still look sharp. With regard to unfortunate uniform issues (that I didn't notice on first watch) in this episode, I'd direct you to the following very perceptive comment from Chris W:
https://www.jammersreviews.com/comments/?id=108518

It's a minor shame they dropped the ball on that as pretty much everything else in this episode works really well.

@Lynos

“The producers of these new Trek shows care mostly about representing modern sensibilities, and modern sensibilities call for tough, capable, and sometimes less overtly feminine women. I don't know why, but there's this idea that the two can't go together. So no mini-skirts, no cascading hair, and no flattering lighting or bright close-ups.”


Well that would mean nuanced, well written, complicated, true to life characters. We’ve gotten very little of that across all of Nu Trek.

@SlackerInc
Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 1:35am (UTC -5)
"No, that's subjectively, "eye of the beholder". I don't agree. She's decent looking, but she and Thandiwe Newton (of "Westworld", among other things) have something about their faces that looks a little...skeletal, or something. FWIW to establish my taste, I would say right now the hottest woman in Hollywood is Camila Jones of "Daisy Jones and the Six". I guess I like a little bit of a fuller face, which is an asset of Celia Rose Gooding's."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytD_0uYUtVo
This who you're talking about? If so, I agree, that's definitely subjective. I have no idea how you came up with "the hottest woman in Hollywood."

Is this hair thing still going on? Well, I guess they did once call it Hair Trek...

As I said I am black and i hang around many black forums and many tumblr sites that are catered towards african americans.

many people on that site all said, they wont watch the show because they dont like how they presented uhura as a fat, much younger, masculine androgynous bald woman who does not even have any resemblance to Nichols despite the fact she is meant to be a younger version. We black folks were happy uhura was our like princess leia. a very feminine beautiful woman that guys did take note off.

black folks, we know when we are been played. we know when ''white hollywood'' downplay our characters so they dont outshine the white characters.

Gooding should have been the Adira from star trek discovery. she should not have been uhura

hey, paramount plus if you have one of your shills on this site. you got the message. us black folks dont like your ugly manly uhura. maybe that is why your ratings are poor.

"As I said I am black and i hang around many black forums and many tumblr sites that are catered towards african americans.

many people on that site all said, they wont watch the show because they dont like how they presented uhura as a fat, much younger, masculine androgynous bald woman who does not even have any resemblance to Nichols despite the fact she is meant to be a younger version."

Links?

@Jeffrey's Tube

it is on twitter and tumblr and reddit-star trek.

Also a lot of star trek fans also think it but wont say it out loud because they dont want to be seen as racist/sexist.

anyone who watches SNW knows of ''the giant elephant in the room'' of the show...that the new uhura is so ugly and manky looking compared to nichols that it becomes distracting.

If you are a shill for paramount, please tell them you drop the ball with an iconic character like uhura.

So it's everywhere but at the same time hard to find because people are too afraid to say that they think a female actor is ugly, on the internet. ok, then. That must have been a recent change because I clearly remember people judging women's looks quite harshly not too long ago.

@boy

So no links.

'Kay.

@boy

I just figured since you "hang around" so many "black forums" and many "tumblr sites that are catered towards african americans" that links wouldn't be hard to find.

(I'd also point out that it's pretty unusual for a black person to use the term "african american" nowadays which further makes me suspicious of your claimed racial identity, although I acknowledge there's a possible generational thing at play there I may be ignorant of.)

@Cody B

"This is kind of what I was getting at in my previous post. You have to be careful not to rate some of these episodes higher just because of sparkles and explosions. Take for instance the TOS episode Arena (the kirk vs gorn episode). It’s pretty well regarded but also there’s many memes because of the low production and how bad the gorn suit looks. Now throw millions of dollars and todays tech at the episode. Likely It would be considered one of the greatest episodes ever. Or throw millions of dollars at any episode of trek pre Enterprise era. It’s in fair really because majority of SNW episodes would be less well received were they shot exactly like the TOS era they try to be. Not to say they are bad scripts but the polish and shine of all that money can make them appear better than the writing really is"

Arena is still a great episode despite the "fight" because it wasn't the fight that matter, it was the story. Almost without exception, all the TOS episodes had some sort of morality play. The writing is what carried the series, not the sets. Today's writers don't understand subtext.

Today, all that $$$$$ goes to the set and the new-fangled video wall thingy. The writers time and time again come up short. I have no doubt, that if the skeleton of the story was presented here on these boards, the members here could write a better and more meaningful story/script.

On a side note, we just lost one of Trek's finest writers/directors. Manny Coto passed away from cancer. He was only 62.

Honest question to those trashing me for calling out ''looks''

but do you think this same people would have presented snw uhura as michael burnham as the lead central character of star trek discovery?

burnham is the lead to a trek show , notice that she is

-thin (this is before the actress got pregnant in season 3)
-feminine , soft looking and very pretty.
-light skin black girl (typical of hollywood) they do ingore there are many pretty dark skin black women
-Fit Body
-overall burnharm has male gaze. I think the actress will make a good lara croft if they wanted to make her black.

yeah, she has all of these because she is the lead. hollywood knows what they do and want when they go for leading roles. Gooding's Uhura will never have been Michael Burnham.

its like these show purposely wanted an unattractive on uhura so she is no threat to chapel.

@boy

"But do you think this same people would have presented snw uhura as michael burnham as the lead central character of star trek discovery?"

Absolutely. If they had an actress who looked like her they felt was right for the role.

Sonequa Martin-Green is 38. (Celia Rose Gooding is 23.) SMG had a profile and career under her belt that earned her consideration as a leading lady. Casting a lead for a show is hard. In a large way, the lead is responsible for and carries the show. I promise you, SMG's looks were not the main factor in why she was cast. Her work ethic, commitment, stability, ability to give good interviews and willingness to do press junkets to promote the show were all much more important, as was her name recognition, proven track record, and the producers' judgement of her acting ability.

I'm glad you're sexually attracted to her though?

Oh and lets not forget the results of hiring SMG have been decidedly mixed. The reaction to the Burnham character is as much on her shoulders as her portrayer as it is on the writers who have written the character. It's hardly like we can unequivocally say they did a good job casting her.

What do you think of Dominique Fishback? You don't think the producers would have gotten her for Michael Burnham if they could? I promise you they would have been THRILLED.

. . .

While we're at it though . . .

You're aware Michael Burnham's name is "Michael," a male name? And this was on purpose? Here's a link:

https://www.tvguide.com/news/star-trek-discovery-female-named-michael/

Here's quotes:

"Martin-Green was on board with the moniker twist from the beginning, which she calls a "lovely symbol," as it not only helped her understand her character's backstory -- a human raised by a Vulcan (James Frain) -- but is in line with the franchise's message of open-mindedness and diversity, and a future with more gender fluidity.

"I appreciated the statement it makes all on its own to have this woman with this male name, just speaking of the amelioration of how we see men and women in the future," she said at TCA. "But I also just decided for my creation and for my background and whatnot that I was named after my father. And so, we get a little bit of exploration of the father‑daughter dynamic."

. . .

And you're aware she had a very short haircut in season 1? Her hair styles in season one and two are very non-traditionally feminine. Some are much less appealing to my fashion sense than Ortegas's, but that's me. And definitely much less appealing than Gooding's, but again, that's me. I might suggest you have a bit of a double standard if you have a problem with Gooding's hair and not any of Burnham's various styles pre-Season 3 though.

. . .

And what are Burnham's character traits compared to SNW Uhura's character traits? Are you really going to argue Burnham, the savior-of-everything, I-must-do-everything-myself, I-will-never-take-orders-from-a-superior attitude does not characterize her as having more traditionally "masculine" character traits than Uhura? I cannot see how you can argue that.

. . .

So if Burnham is the example of what the producers want a "masculine" female character to be like, and SNW Uhura is nothing like her, it does not make much sense to argue they are trying to masculine-ize her.

"I am mad that they made Uhura look like a man"

This is really a weird hill to die on, I mean do you have any other opinions about anything in this show?

It's turning into a single issue wonk. Read the room.

Thanks much for the YouTube links, @Jeffrey's Tube!

@Quincy: Yup, that's her! Hot enough for Leonardo DiCaprio to date for four years.

@Jeffrey's Tube: "I'd also point out that it's pretty unusual for a black person to use the term 'african american' nowadays"

It's less common than it used to be, but not "pretty unusual". The Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart, who represents the left on the Friday PBS Newshour segment with David Brooks and is himself Black, said the following on a December 2022 segment: "[A]bout a quarter of the electorate in South Carolina is African American."

Link: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/july-7-2023-pbs-newshour-full-episode

But you're behind the times yourself. These days we are supposed to capitalize "Black" in that context.

All that said, I do agree with @MidshipmanNorris that you should read the room, @boy.

I profoundly disagree with @boy's central thesis that Celia Gooding is in any way 'manly', I don't like to participate in judging the appearance of female cast members, and I certainly can't claim to be au fait in any way with discussions among black people about colourism on Tumblr or any other social media outlet.

That said, I also instinctively disagree with emotionally manipulative attempts to shame people for having unusual opinions or silence them by saying 'read the room' or suggesting they are lacking 'manners' or 'decorum' by not shutting up. Do we want an echo chamber here? I don't.

'The room' here is full of very diverse opinions so the 'read the room' rhetoric is simply emotional blackmail implying consensus can be wielded as some kind of debate-killing weapon. Let @boy make her arguments, no matter how far out they are, and address those arguments.

One of the strengths of this forum is that we are often exposed to opinions we don't know or perhaps even don't like. Long nay it continue, no matter how much it rankles.

When I agreed with "read the room", I was not signing on to pressure to enforce groupthink. Anyone who is familiar with my posting history will know that's not my style whatsoever. My interpretation of that comment--and certainly what I was attempting to cosign--was more like "Okay, sure: virtually any argument should be fair game; but do you have anything else to say about the show or are you only going to obsessively pursue this one hobbyhorse?" I think there's a difference between trying to silence unpopular opinions and expressing the feeling that it doesn't say much of someone's quality as a poster if they can't seem to hold forth on anything except one narrow point of contention.

@SlackerInc
'When I agreed with "read the room", I was not signing on to pressure to enforce groupthink. Anyone who is familiar with my posting history will know that's not my style whatsoever.'

Yes, absolutely. It wasn't intended as a dig at you - I just utilised the moment to make the point more generally, as it has been troubling me a little.

I don't know why people would be on a discussion forum if they don't want/aren't ready for opinions that might challenge their own. And I don't agree that people should only be 'allowed' to express their views in narrow, approved ways or be considered beyond the pale.

The next episode can't come soon enough and even I eagerly await JT's sanguine first comment like the morning sun after a long cold night.

@Bryan

Agreed. Even the worst SNW episode is infinitely more preferable than debates about debates about hairstyles (of which I of course am guilty of contributing to). 'And now the conclusion...'

The next focus character is 'Chapel', I believe, based on a targeted recommendation on YouTube that I tried not to see (I abhor 'next week on Star Trek...' spoiler-trailers).

@boy

"its like these show purposely wanted an unattractive on uhura so she is no threat to chapel."

Interesting... I think Bush is the hottest female in this show. I hadn't thought that that might be on purpose. I just thought it was my taste.

IMO neither Gooding nor Saldana hold a candle to Nichelle. ... but I don't think either of them is ugly.

@Yanks

its was done on purpose. the show did not want uhura to be a threat to chapel and the best way to ensure a girl is not a threat to another girl is to make that girl ugly or younger. In TOS Chapel could not even hold a candle to uhura. uhura outshined her in every way. this show did not want that to happen again, that is why we have a manly -ugly looking uhura.

Point it, it was not necessary. we could still have had an uhura as beautiful as nichols and the bush chapel.

Saldana is gorgeous though and she has a natural sex appeal that many snw girls don't have. I think this is why she has been a very successful sci-fi actress.

Jess Bush is an average blonde girl, but she is styled very well on the show and i think it is because she is in a romantic story arc with spock so of course they have to make her look attractive and appealing.

On the show, I think Laan is the prettiest girl. I was surprised how good she looked in the last episode of season 1- a quality of mercy. however Chong looks are just played down and it does not help all the women in the show apart from Chapel are in the same manly uniform as the men, which is not flattering to them.

Laan is the best looking girl on the show. Uhura is the least attractive. its ironic since in tos, uhura (the nichols version) was considered the hottest girl on the show. which was rare for a black tv character but ground breaking.

Ok, boy could you cool it on the body shaming. The is not a Fraternity in Arizona...

I never try to discourage conversation, but I do have a couple cents here -- mainly that the endless harping on the same *very superficial* and *very subjective* point to make a quesionable-at-very-best (and ludicrous-at-likeliest) argument about the motives of the producers is something that, after awhile, makes me feel dumber for having listened to it.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

"argument about the motives of the producers is something that, after awhile, makes me feel dumber for having listened to it."

I didn't even read it and it made me dumber :)

Jammer’s point is well-taken. Less presentimentation and more civil conversation! Several self-admitted hate-watchers cogitating over others’ cogitating on the strategic deployment and use of “ugly’ actors, claim their voices are being stifled. They have a right to an opinion. What they do not have a right to force anyone to give two cents about that opinion. And an opinion IS all it is. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Die gustibus non est disputandum.

*De gustibus, I should say.

@yanks — I also miss the subtexts and morality plays of TOS. This SNW series captures the look and superficial trappings of classic Trek, but not the depth of philosophical debate and exploration of culture clash. This SNW show is so boring because there’s no real clash of ideas. It’s just routine buddy action TV.

I do have to say that the sequence where everyone has forgotten everything can be kind of rough... at a certain point it borders on satire, to the point where it's like everyone on the ship has become a complete idiot repeatedly walking into walls because they can't remember how to turn right or left

It was far too silly to be the dark turn it was played up as, and I don't know if that kind of dissonance really plays as dramatic irony or is just plain silly on the face of it, but at least this scene does not wear out its welcome too badly and is followed by the scene where Chris beats the shit out of his former Yeoman and is just about to ice him when his memory returns...

That was all kinds of 4000% messed up, and I really love the way it was directed and played.

@MidshipmanNorris
'the scene where Chris beats the shit out of his former Yeoman and is just about to ice him when his memory returns...

That was all kinds of 4000% messed up, and I really love the way it was directed and played.'

Absolutely. The viscerality in that scene took me by surprise, and suggested a level of constant restraint on the part of Pike that was unexpected and quite intriguing - that he isn't dealing with knowing his own horrific fate as well as he would have everyone believe?

They should pursue this as it would bridge the gap between the motivational speaker Pike we see in SNW and the world weary curmudgeon Pike we see in 'The Cage'.

@MidshipmanNorris: "That was all kinds of 4000% messed up, and I really love the way it was directed and played."

Agreed. Kind of surprising they would go there, the more I think about it. But I'm glad they had the stones to do so.

@Pikes hair..I didn't know that ..I don't know what piece of literature it is from..thanks for the tip..but as I said most episodes last season had aliens or anomalies except 4 7 and 10..9 was bad on several.levels but at least had that blue Buckley dude..

Yeah, no. Uhura doesn't "look like a man" because of her "shaved head" - it's a "close-cropped cut" and shapes her face well. Also, a masculine person wouldn't finish that look with lashes, eye makeup and lipstick.

Here's a web page of 24 women celebrities with that same hair, dressed to the nines. They don't look "manly" to me:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/celebrities-looked-completely-stunning-shaving-094411047.html?

Also, Uhura is a 23 year old cadet, she still has a decade to go until she grows into the Lieutenant on Kirk's Enterprise. Young people experiment with their look and most women don't have the same hairstyle over a decade.
Also, not everything is about gender.

*Ensign, not cadet. Forgot about the promotion after returning from the academy.

@Sony, cosigned--with the caveat that after looking through the nice slideshow you linked, I don't think that look works for Evangeline Lilly or Karen Gillan. It does definitely work for Gooding, though, and as you pointed out and I've maintained all along she looks plenty feminine.

But as I talked about way upthread, there is a subset of humanity that looks at a slideshow like you linked and thinks every single one of those women is crazy and ought to wear a wig until they grow their hair back. They just don't view reality the same way you or I do, but they are not some tiny fringe. It's kind of interesting, cognitively speaking.

I was riveted for most of this episode. Really fascinating premise (though I couldn’t help but compare it with the film “50 First Dates.”) It’s the Luq guy who really makes it work. But it seems like it was resolved too quickly and easily. And it raised some questions for me:

• So, I get left behind by Starfleet … so I’d figure they thought I was dead and not hold a grudge. But this guy says, “Oh well, guess I’ll remake this society in my image and when Starfleet shows up to rescue me I’ll punish them.” What gives?

• Did they make all those weapons or did that box just have a ton of phasers in it?

• I guess I only had those two questions but I feel like if I’m going to use bullet points there should be at least three of them so … ummm … how’s everyone doing?

— ET

I am binge-watching the season so far and I was kind of :O reading all this comments about Uhura... I read some really shocking things...

You know, I will say one thing: TV "gods" should stop re-inventing/re-imagining classic TV characters and even worse trying to "adjust" them to our era.
I actually do not like any of the new versions, except Pike and maybe the nurse.
Spock, Uhura, Kirk 's versions are not good and personally I treat the whole thing like it has nothing in common with the TOS characters.
It is just lazy writing and also lazy "milking the fans" strategy.
They do not have the skills to create new interesting characters. Look at Ortegas, a lovely actress who is reduced to say stupid one liners. She is the comic relief (?) in the bridge that no one really needs.

I take the whole SNW is a self-parody. I cannot take seriously a ship and a captain acting like an old mate with this crew when on duty. This is so "Discovery" and so idiotic. Not even commercial ships do not run like this.

I am pretty much sure they are dying to make a new version of TNG.
What save us for now is the incredible chemistry of the crew/cast that it will almost be impossible to recreate. And it is too soon. They gonna do it though. We all know it.

I agree with Jammer that this was an episode very much in the TOS mold. I liked the use of memory loss as a means of explaining the behavior of the Kalars on Rigel VI.

With this and ep 2 (Una's trial) being the highlights so far, the season is batting .500.

Ho hum. No seriously, Ho hum. Blinking hospital episode. Fast forward

If Zac hadn’t taken over, Pike et al would probs be dead.

JUSTICE FOR ZAC

I thought the acting in this episode was great. The premise was so-so, and the Pike-us ex Machina at the end was a little too simplified. But the acting, particularly by the away team, really made this an enjoyable episode. I was confused before about how all of this series fits in with TOS, particularly “The Cage”, and this episode actually left me more confused. Nonetheless, I enjoyed it, 2.5 stars from me.

*** episode here. Yes nothing groundbreaking, but a reasonable plot with some reasonable outcomes, as always looking great. Sort of a remix of Conundrum from TNG with TOS planet adventures.

The loss of memory was interesting enough, especially as Jammer points out, when Pike was about to kill the Yeoman, but his memories returned and restrained him. Good stuff. What I didn't like was the whole 3 unarmed / injured memory stricken officers can mount an all out rebellion into an armed fortress. Most of that was conveniently skipped over. Oops. The guest actor did elicit some sympathy with him indicating he did not want to remember, and then deciding to enter the castle to reclaim his lost memories. There could have been more here for sure. Kind of like some episodes from last season, the writers had a real good idea, for an episode and then focused on the less interesting elements of it. Conundrum was a good TNG episode because the characters acted out new versions themselves without their memories to hold them in check. Here we got to see that from Pike, but not really from anyone else. Missed opportunity.

On the Enterprise I found the Ortega storyline fine. I thought Spocks reluctance to leave was a bit dumb. They could have left for 12 hours, healed up / figure out what was happening, come back with solution. Going into the asteroid belt was not exactly a brilliant move with the whole ship becoming sick. Ortega's banter with the computer was good enough, and I thought the cinematography helped elevate the premise. Seeing the ship walking around all confused in the corridors was a neat moment. The special effects do help sell less than stellar writing, sometimes it works, other times not. SNW needs to remember writing / direction / acting are the primary drivers of a good episode, not special effects.

I enjoyed seeing PIke lead again. He's a good actor and has real presence with a good script. With all of the critque of Ortega here, I would flip and invert criticism of Ortega instead onto Pike. Often he's been diminished as a leader of a Starship. He puts up with all of the Ortega banter / insubordinate comments. He's also often made to look more inexperienced than his rank or age would indicate. Here though he is solidly in command. Reminds me of why Mount was chosen as the lead of the series. I have found his Captain girlfriend to not be as convincing, but in this episode it seemed they actually were having a real relationship. I found their reconciliation scene at the end well written and touching. Pike admits he doesn't deserve her. She decides he's worth another chance. That's the right way for him to apologize.

Back to Ortega. I would credit the actress as making the character as likeable as she is (and I will admit that likeability can dance on the line of humorous to annoying.) Ortega's character is fairly shallow, and the constant smart-ass dialgoue goes too far at times for breaking the reality of this supposedly being a ship with a chain of command. I remind myself it's not unknown to Trek to have characters like this. Chekov and Sulu would banter, but that was often to each other, not the captain. I'm pretty sure Paris had the occasional quip. I think Ortega could have easily ave come off as annoying as a Neelix / Jar Jar / Wesley. She's not. Somehow she keeps the character reasonably likeable. I think she finds a way to project that even though she is quipping, she is not serious about it. I would like to see her humbled and learn something though. The show presents her as the smartest / most infallable person on the ship (though the situations she is presented with are not grandiose, thank goodness, she is no Wesley boy genius wonder child) , when obviously she is not. I've said it many times of SNW, this is a cast that is great, and is often elevating some decent to reasonable material, but imagine if they got some real great writing to chew on. There are classics in the making if the writers really go for it with this cast instead of playing it safe.

This season has been reasonable, just like last so far. Episodes that are usually likeable, with a cast that's great to hang out with. I enjoy good, but I know there can be more done with this show.