Review Text
"The Bounty" is a jam-packed, kitchen-sink outing that piles on the nostalgia and references like there's no tomorrow, possibly because, for this cast, there soon won't be. We're down to four episodes after this one, and the plot is going to start moving this all toward some sort of a conclusion soon. There's the sense the writers are getting in all their wish-list items, even if some of those items are strange. That "The Bounty" holds together and still makes sense is admirable given how much it throws at us. And it even manages to find thematic connections and emotional resonance through it all, which is definitely a big plus.
The common theme is one of family and legacy as all these characters converge and reflect. (This is the first episode of the season where all the TNG characters/actors appear, and mostly all in one place.) With the Titan on the run from a compromised Starfleet and also from the Shrike, we start getting into the nuts and bolts of the investigation with the crew's arrival at Daystrom Station, which is not so much a research facility as a (yet another dimly lit) abandoned warehouse of illicit technology and Section 31 experiments. Such things stashed away include a genetically modified attack tribble, the "Genesis II Device" and apparently the preserved body of James T. Kirk, ranked in order from least to most objectionable. These are strange, throwaway larks that serve as knowing winks, but they're bizarre and unnecessary, except to add to that kitchen-sink notion I mentioned.
The station is guarded by an "advanced AI system" that at first reveals itself to be a holographic Moriarty (Daniel Davis, reprising the role, but in what turns out is a rather pointless version), who pulls out a pistol and starts shooting, which doesn't seem like the most efficient way of dealing with a security threat in the 25th century. Meanwhile, notes are played over the comm system, which Riker recognizes from his very first encounter with Data in "Encounter at Farpoint," where he attempted to whistle "Pop Goes the Weasel." It's a decent callback.
No, Moriarty here is not the one who was preserved in the memory module (hence the pointlessness of this particular inclusion), but merely a hologram from a memory of the real AI at work here, which is the merged consciousness of Data, Lore, Lal, and B-4, which have been put into a synthetic "golem" by Alton Soong in what was to be his second attempt to cement his legacy before he died with the project still incomplete. (Interestingly, his plan was no longer to extend his own life, but to do what most people do through the legacy of their children, except here through AI.) The record of what was stolen from the station is inside this AI's mind, so the crew beams DataLoreLalB4 aboard the ship to learn what it was.
But let's rewind. In some earlier action, Picard and the Titan crew warp over to a starbase to hide from their pursuers while Riker, Worf, and Raffi are on Daystrom dealing with the AIs. The starbase is actually a "starship museum" featuring a bunch of retired starships from years (and movies and series) past, which provides the excuse for the characters to take a trip down memory lane, while very transparently doing so for the benefit of us Trek fans. We see the Enterprise-A, the Defiant, the Voyager, and even the HMS Bounty, the Klingon bird of prey stolen by Kirk's crew and used in Star Trek IV (which Jack and Sidney decide to steal the cloaking device from to enable the Titan's escape). This is fun to geek out over, but it's also thematically relevant; Seven reflects back on her Voyager days, where she had a family and belonging that she has never since replaced, much to her regret. It's a nice character moment.
It's also at this starbase/museum that we're reunited with Commodore Geordi La Forge, who first has to engage in this series' time-honored tradition of sternly lecturing Picard for putting people at risk, which of course makes Geordi look like the resident killjoy of this reunion tour. But it's all tied into his own troubles over family and legacy. Both his daughters are in Starfleet, and he's still dealing with the fact that Sidney signed up for a ship that puts her in danger far more than he's comfortable with, when he would've rather she'd been an engineer on a safer posting. While it's initially annoying how Geordi comes across as excessively stubborn and gruff, LeVar Burton gradually lets the armor chip away into something more vulnerable and understandable as he works through his personal feelings about the roles his daughters play.
And Picard has his own questions around what legacy means, as we learn here that Jack's visions are actually being caused by Irumodic Syndrome, which he inherited from his father. (That is, unless we learn otherwise by plot turns in future episodes, which seem likely. The Changelings still want him for some reason no one is even aware of.) Jack goes to the holodeck bar and starts drowning his sorrows and says some mean things to Picard, which he apologizes for later. This material is okay, but nothing spectacular. But it fits the theme.
Rewind some more. Worf and Raffi finally make it aboard the Titan, which is good for a reunion (the first of many in this episode). There's some humor mined from the idea that Riker struggles with adjusting to the new and improved quasi-pacifist Worf. And notably, with Raffi now working with the rest of the Titan crew, this puts the character on much more solid footing, allowing the writers to scale back her emotionalism and impulsivity and allow her to just be one of the gang. It's an immediate, significant improvement.
But really, the big question here is what happens when we turn on DataLoreLalB4 (henceforth called "Data"). Will the remnants of Data's memories answer the call? Will we get an unstable android with major multiple personality disorder? Yes, and looks that way. And just what was stolen from Daystrom? Turns out it was Picard's old body (the one that died at the end of season one before his mind was transferred to a synthetic golem). Why? You got me. What could the Changelings possibly want with it, and also Jack? No idea. Is this an insane plot twist that's going to jump the rails? Maybe; time will tell. For now, I'm definitely intrigued. And these character stories, simple as they may be, are working. The actors have retained their secret formula and continue to make them work.
Wow, this review jumped around a lot. It's like a stream of consciousness. It's appropriate for an episode that warps here and there and has no shortage of its own insane bright ideas, and yet with a strange overarching logic governing it all. These characters are making this season really work, even when the plot is nearly undone by its own cleverness. It's becoming increasingly likely the plot here won't add up to a whole lot. I mean, a Changeling terrorist attack on a Federation starship parade? Not especially smart, sci-fi, or complicated. Oh, and which for some reason requires Picard's corpse. Which sounds positively insane. But this season has managed to be so true when it comes to its characters that I'm willing to entertain insanity and even disappointment. We'll see if we get what we want or what we deserve. I'm not even sure if they're the same things or not.
Some other thoughts:
- Who is Geordi's wife? Will we find out? I'd prefer it not be Leah Brahms.
- Vadic is doing her unhinged villain thing, and it appears here she's a full-on Changeling. I'm not sure why she cut off her hand and then talked to it in that episode a few weeks back, but the lack of an explanation is one of those things that starts to chip away at this season's internal logic and credibility. Let's hope it doesn't turn into the gaping holes of previous seasons.
- All the starships warping about gave the episode a nice, open, adventurous feel, even if the season overall is operating like a bottle show on mostly the same sets.
- The episode ends with Riker kidnapped to the Shrike, where Troi is being held prisoner. Vadic intends to use Troi as leverage to make Riker help her find Picard. Sure, okay. Pretty standard.
- Speaking of geeking out, Shaw, as an engineer, idolizes Geordi, which is a nice touch for this inconsistent character. Although, you'd think that might manifest itself a little more toward Sidney, seeing as she serves under his command.
- Picard, upon getting deeper into stolen cloaking devices and still more criminal violations in the name of their mission: "I guess they'll just have to add it to my tab." Stewart's deadpan delivery of this line was quite funny.
Previous episode: Imposters
Next episode: Dominion
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269 comments on this post
Jax
Starflleet will go after the families of people who cross them now? I guess nuStarfleet is the love child of the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order.
Forget Gene...the entirety of classic Trek is spinning in its grave.
The stupid kicks in within seconds in this episode as we opened with the stupid nuTrek "stop on a dime" exit from warp drive.
Is Daystrom a Section 31 facility in nuTrek? Sure seems that way.
Moriarty is reduced to a glorified thug...'member Moriarty? Yeah I ';member.
If Data is what Picard is now, does that mean that Jean-Luc can do that holographic display thing with his eyes too?
The Big Stupid overlying it all is the notion that Picard, who was by all indications a cipher in the Dominion War, seems to be the singular focus of hostility of the nuChangelings simply because the show has his name on it.
Jax
Riker being the one who volunteered to hold off the attackers so that he could be conveniently captured to find that Deanna was being held hostage was the biggest contrivance since Insurrection, when Riker and LaForge somehow knew they wouldn't need civilian clothes.
J.B.
Another good episode. Several well-written character scenes. I'm especially partial to Seven and Jack talking about past starships. Loved the use of past themes.
I'm a little bummed Moriarty was just a cameo but there's enough characters (and villains) in the season already.
JOSE1701
I love seeing the TNG cast back together. I totally loving this season. LLAP
AMA
By far my favourite episode of modern Trek: it was, at various times, fun, touching, and tense. The nods to the past, reunions, inter-generational scenes, and one-liners all worked for me. What a blast.
Gilligan’s Starship
So…what was Daystrom doing with the mortal remains of James T. Kirk?🧐
Bucktown
Well the short of it is those who dislike memberberries are not going to find much with this episode. It's a walking memberberry orchard!
In spite of all of that (and this probably being the weakest episode thus far as a result), I'm still digging it. I do think Picard's big scenes with Geordi were perhaps not as strong as his scenes with Ro last week, which packed a stronger emotional heft. But I did appreciate the theme of this episode as more to allow "the next generation" to shine. Before we get Geordi back, we need to see how fatherhood changed him. (On a side note, Worf really needs to text Alexander.) I get it, but it wasn't necessarily fun. Now that we have that conflict out of the way (and the memberberries), next episode should be back to the goods, and we'll hopefully get some good Geordi-Data moments.
On that front, I'm also quite stunned we have a Data 2.0. I wasn't expecting the writers to be this over the top, but sure, let's get the WHOLE band back together, even resurrecting the dead ones (let's just hope they don't do that with John Lennon). We're really stretching the thread of narrative believability here, but hopefully it's all just contained here and more classic storytelling in the future episodes snaps it back.
One small praise - I liked Seven's short scene with Jack. I think it would have been better if it wasn't part of a sea of nostalgia, but it was nice to see the Seven of Voyager.
One small complaint - I really didn't like the scene at the beginning when Vadic tells her crew they need to find anyone who's ever been close to Picard. This rightfully lead to the suspicion throughout the whole episode that Geordi and his daughter were Changelings. I think the Geordi scenes would have worked better without that sinking suspicion, which I'm sure the writers didn't intend anyway. They should have omitted that opening scene on those grounds and we just see Vadic morph at the very end in front of Riker. Do we really need an upfront explanation for why she has Troi? It should be obvious anyway.
Andrew
This is the kind of legacy-weighted non-episode that I was worried this season would be full of, so I guess I’m just lucky this was the first major whiff
Booming
No one is ever really gone. :)
I guess we get the Trek version of this video soon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNTLC_uiGFA
@Bucktown
It is actually Data 3.0. He already died twice. The Data in ST:Picard season 1 was Data 2.0.
By the way, curious little thing but Star Trek: Picard never shows up on the twitter top 20. The Last of US or Mandalorian does and many other shows but not Picard?? Paradox+ asleep at the wheel? No money for twitter promo? Twitter too toxic??
Kyle A
When Data2.0 turns to look at Geordi, and his reaction says it all. Isn’t it great when the emotions work because they feel earned. Not like Discovery or Season 1 Picard where everybody just cried for a whole episode.
StarMan
"21st century" duct tape? ***face palm***
This is an unfortunate step down from the previous couple of episodes. I'm inclined to say this is the weakest outing so far.
The writing definitely took a hit this week. There were several instances where it just felt off. A lot of Worf's dialogue is missing the mark; the Geordi melodrama with the kids felt stilted and poorly executed.
I wish they could let this reunion play more naturally, rather than insert obligatory NuTrek quip that these characters never operated with in the past - we don't need it. Is it really too much to ask for a more mature sensibility in the writing?
As for plot points:
- Jack's diagnosis. Is Beverly still hiding something? Clearly, Jack's Irumodic syndrome does not explain his Jason Bourne moment last week or The Changeling's determination to capture him.
- Moriarty. Damn - that was it? Just a fly-by cameo. Wouldn't have minded knowing how he went from his cosey little holo-cube (which was in Barclay's possession, IIRC) to his current circumstances.
- Daystrom Easter Eggs. So who decided to dig up Kirk off Veridian III and store him at the institute? Also, I burst out laughing at the Genesis II device reveal. Really? Wouldn't just the bog-standard Genesis Device have been a sufficient callback?
- Ship porn. I'll let them away with this one - it was fun. Seven's moment with Voyager was nice.
- Data 3.0. Well, if you're going to go all in on the nostalgia. It's ... a little disappointing. Had this been the first season, it might be a different story. But we already spent an entire season addressing Data's demise and the impact it had. But here we are.
- The heist reveal. Well, I haven't got the foggiest. I don't have a clue what these Changelings are up to. Don't have a clue what Vadic is or who her crew are (clearly not other Changelings, given the ease she dispatched one of them). At this juncture, I would have liked to know. But while this season has done a better job of paying us off as we go, we're still firmly in the mold of the overarching mystery box. If I were to guess, next week is going to be more tease, with the final three episodes finally providing some context and sense to whatever the hell is actually going on.
Rating: I will be generous and go down the middle with a 2.5 / 5. Now that everyone is together (or at least all the players are on the field), I expect a better outing next week.
@Bommer: "By the way, curious little thing but Star Trek: Picard never shows up on the twitter top 20. The Last of US or Mandalorian does and many other shows but not Picard?? Paradox+ asleep at the wheel? No money for twitter promo? Twitter too toxic??"
Probably because Picard doesn't have mainstream appeal. It certainly isn't anywhere in the vicinity of TLOU (which exploded on social media and rapidly ascended to watercooler status.
Narissa's Bath Water
Oh my.
John M.
This is my least favourite of the season, but still liked it. Two and a half or three stars. I'll decide on the rewatch. Most of the plotting struck me as silly -- particularly Daystrom being completely unmanned -- but all the character stuff worked. I am not a shipper but La Forge and Jack, ship me up.
And I think this is the first episode that I probably would have liked more if I hadn't seen the trailer, the Moriarty and the Soongdroid having been spoiled.
It's been telegraphed since episode 1 that they'll take something from the fleet museum, but now I want them to take everything. If Voyager, the Defiant, and Kirk's Enterprise are all in the final battle, then fan-service me hard, I'll pay extra.
Narissa's Bath Water
Did Picard and Shaw both give orders within a 10 second span? Shaw's whiplash alternating between witty antagonist and nodding henchman is getting ridiculous. Also, the "quirky dialogue" dial was turned up again, after several episodes of being on a mercifully low setting.
Lone bright spot was Vadic. Amanda Plummer isn't a prolific actor, but she is delightfully batshit crazy. She is leaning into the melodrama with a self-aware mockery of Trek that is hilarious to behold. Her delivery reminds me a little of Jared Leto's Snyder cut post-credit Joker.
Vadic spin-off. I'm here for it.
Skylar
"Computer, increase ambient lighting by 75%."
"Computer, decrease Vadic's overacting by 90%."
Karl Zimmerman
Holy fankwank! Not a bad episode by any means, but still the weakest episode of the season to date.
There were still a lot of good character moments in this episode. The scene between Jack and Sydney legit got me to tear up a bit (amazing, given I don't really give a crap about Voyager much). I liked all of the Jack/Picard scenes, thought LaForge's reintroduction was done well (with a complete character arc), and I liked seeing basically the whole gang together and interacting again.
But much like the season premier, this episode relies far too heavily on nostalgia and memberberries. Things like the return of Moriarty had absolutely no reason to happen other than to just have the audience go "I remember that!" Tons of group dialogue scenes which basically existed to make the plot move forward as well. It absolutely gave the episode the most TNG vibe to date, but it meant it just didn't feel as consistent as the last several episodes. Plus I kept being reminded of how heavily I was being pandered to, which took me out of the story.
I really, really don't like the resurrection of Data (with multiple personality disorder, so Spiner can keep mugging for the camera!). I know Matalas has different ideas than Chabon regarding the series, and Trek has undone many deaths before (see Spock, Picard, or the first time Data died) but this basically entirely undoes the one good thing about the finale of Season 1: Data's decision to die, because he felt like mortality was the ultimate expression of his desire to me human. The choice Data made in that episode is now useless; robbed of any emotional context.
Not sure what's going on with Vadic at the end? Seems to imply there's different factions within the Changelings, and she's actually a more sympathetic one. Maybe she's playing a long con - trying to trick her masters into thinking she's on their side, but she needs Jack for something else.
Regardless, it's still enjoyable, and the plot was moved forward. Not every episode in a season can be equally incredible.
Latex Zebra
I enjoyed that for the easter egg heaven it was.
Narissa's Bath Water
@Skylar
Capitano Vadic? Nostra gentildonna?
Eretico!
Empio!
SACRILEGO.
(mutters and signs quietly)
Sid
Given the synthetic resurrections that are possible in this universe now, I want to see James Kirk be the guy behind that red door Jack keeps seeing in visions. Do it Terry, I dare you!!!
Chrome
"It is actually Data 3.0. He already died twice. The Data in ST:Picard season 1 was Data 2.0."
Technically, that was just an AI and not a functioning android. And Data himself is schematically Lore 2.0.
But let's see, in broadcast order, in terms of Data-based androids we have:
Data
Lore
Lal
Julianna O'Donnell
B4
Dahj
Soji
Sutra
Picard (Golem Android)
Data 3G (Amalgamation)
Dreubarik
@Karl Zimmerman I'm pretty sure she shot the security officers because they were actual Starfleet people, not changelings, and she wanted to take Riker to the Shrike.
@Chrome Isn't there a whole planet full of Soong Androids now?
This was way, way too much for a single episode. A nostalgia overdose that could kill a horse-sized J.J. Abrams. Not terrible, but certainly excessive.
Dreubarik
And yet they explicitly referred to Section 31 as a division of Starfleet Intelligence. No amount of memberberries can correct that insult to the Star Trek lore. What is it with NuTrek and Section 31?
Booming
Uh Data 3G. That has a certain something.
Which on the list is the Data that Picard killed at the end of season 1?? I never liked that Data death. If you meet an old friend who was locked up in some kind of mind prison for decades and after a five min conversation asks you to kill him, would you do it?
The Queen
WHY would they have the corpses - or holograms? - of Picard and Kirk at the Fleet Museum? It's grotesque.
How dare they put Troi back in damsel-in-distress mode? That actually made me angry.
The episode is titled "The Bounty," they show us the Bounty which is museumed for some odd reason, they need the cloaking and nontraceability of the Bounty, but they don't steal the Bounty. Explain please.
Some of the dialogue was pretty stilted, and Dorn's acting took a nosedive. However, I did love, "Leave it to you, Jean-Luc, to turn fatherhood into an intergalactic incident."
Good growth for Jack, but I don't believe Beverly about the Irumodic syndrome, and why didn't Picard say, "I never had hallucinations with it."
I'm in favor of Jack + Sidney.
Jack says he got bravery from Picard - not his mother? Rude and ridiculous.
This one was passable, no more.
Karl Zimmerman
@Dreubarik,
You may be right the two mooks that Vadic vaporized were meant to be non-changelings. However, the implications of this are terrible, since even before she morphs, Vadic is beating a subdued prisoner (who is also a Starfleet officer). That's such a blatant violation of both human rights and due process I can't think that non-corrupted Starfleet folks would sit by and say nothing.
Indeed, that implies the beating was part of the "cover" - since Vadic didn't actually need to do that to abscond with Riker. Which is...horrifying in terms of what it says about Starfleet.
StarMan
@Narissa's Bath Water "Also, the "quirky dialogue" dial was turned up again, after several episodes of being on a mercifully low setting."
Is there anxiety in the writers' room that an absence of quirky / quippy = dry & boring? They have restrained themselves in a couple of episodes, only to ramp it up again.
TheERguy
With such stiff competition it’s hard to have this episode compare with the previous few. It was great on the nostalgia but I think it really tried to do too much at once.
Overall the story still hangs together.
Felt sort of like getting the Avengers together in a contrived way this episode.
Don’t love Vadic. Raffi is back to being painful to watch.
Poor Deanna
Data is back again??
2.5 or 3 out of 4
Chrome
@Booming
"Which on the list is the Data that Picard killed at the end of season 1??"
That was a simulation made from a "salvaged memory engram" from the original Data. Yeah, yeah-hey, I don't write this stuff! :-)
I could list Data's OSes, but I'm unsure of a sensible nomenclature.
Gilligan’s Starship
Well, I guess if The Mandalorion can give us young Luke Skywalker, then Star Trek can resurrect James T. Kirk.
And if you’re going to resurrect EVERYBODY at least stop killing them all off just to pull at our heartstrings—it’s become meaningless. Just let them live.
This is the way.
theBgt
They should have named the episode "The Star Trek Museum Experience".
Devices, ships, more ships, reunions, Datas and more Datas, more reunions.. so many reunions you could not take a breath and enjoy each of it..
Geez, I do not mind fan service if it is done well, but I think they overdid it a bit in this one. It was so packed...
Best moments for me: Seven & Voyager, everything Worf.
Worst: everything about Jack Burnham-Crusher, Vadic turned into Bond villain caricature.
Nolan
Well, it finally happened, after more than about 850 episodes, and several close calls, they finally said "fuck it" and reused an episode title.
You know what, after the last two weeks comment threads, I didn't think the show might've started to get good, but I was becoming curious. Fortunately some of the description of events in the comments so far have reminded me of the folly of getting even an inkling of my hopes up with this franchise anymore. Glad I didn't proceed into a full blown caving.
Nolan
Addendum: re: Episide Titke
Oh, or maybe not. On the the homepage the episode is listed as "Bounty," but on the episode page it is "The Bounty." So I guess they avoided it again. Can't dig on the more that when "The Emissary" and "Emissary" exist.
Nick
I loved this episode, 4 stars. Maybe all the nostalgia / fan service is skewing it, but everything worked for me. I loved the father/son scenes with Picard and Jack (Jack is really growing on me) and the father/daugher scenes with Gerodi and Sydney. I also liked how they integrated Gerodi into the overall story and Shaw's reverence of him gave me a chuckle.
I'm still not sure how I feel about resurrecting Data. I'll be fine with it if the merging of the personalities results in a different personality that really feels distinct from Data. That could be interesting and IMO won't invalidate his death in S1. But if the merging of the personalities results in a personality that is very similar to Data, then it will feel like a cheap move.
Episodenull
Re the security guards Vadic killed, they vaporized into soot, so I assume they were also changelings.
This was the first episode of the season I wasn't feeling. Maybe I'll be more forgiving on a rewatch, but it just felt too contrived. People have complained about the fanservice all season, but for the most part it felt natural to the story being told. Here though I felt like the writers made a list of all the callbacks they wanted and then tortured the logic into place to fit them in. For example, the Moriarty inclusion was nearly incoherent. Such a convoluted walk to get to the realization that the computer wired into the station systems would have a record of everything that happened on the station – no shit, you think?
Similarly, I'm not thrilled with the Data resurrection (again.) Hopefully they don't kill him a third time, but I've already seen two attempts before this to wring emotion out of a quasi-ressurrction. I don't care any more.
I feel the limited budget may have hurt them here as well. Lots of time wandering around the same Daystrom sets even though it's suppose to be this high pressure situation, lots of long conversations in hallways, in conference rooms, etc. Not to mention that Jack and Sydney sneak onto a Bird of Prey to do some crime and we don't see any of it.
Given the context of the Titan being hunted, this episode really needed to be a taught thriller, and instead it was a lackadaisical lark.
Bit of a misfire.
PM
There is fan service.
Then there is fan service porn.
Then there is hardcore XXX fan service porn.
Then there is this episode.
And. It. Is. Awesome.
(And not just for all the callbacks and nostalgia, but there were all done right. I will have to watch this 3 or 4 times before i can watch it in front of anyone😢 🤧)
Booming
@Nolan
Here a scene from the episode... listen to the stellar dialogue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smeOa2B2l5Y
DmRofAtoZ
I'll be brief, without all of the cynical point-for-point nitp-ickyery I am saddened to see in more than half the reviews here.
As a first generation TOS fan ( and beyond ), I am loving it.
and I'm pretty sure reuniting the TNG crew without sufficient memberries would be far more objectionable and lamented !
It would see pretty pointless without them !
Plus I don't see very many of us thrilled with amazing new "ship shots"....
The way the Titan descends while decloaking just before the line "we're exposed"....
and the moment in last weeks episode where the freshly crippled ship slowly raises itself to confront the Titan.
Moments before Jack, having already knocked one of his opponents to the ground, flipped him a second time after he gets back up.
and I think all the tech twists get just enough explanation, and any deeper exposition would weigh it all down.
Thank Khan I'm not the only one enjoying and embracing it without deconstructing every moment.
Patrick
So I guess "cheap" is what to expect of this? Luckily they have so many trekkies that take a hold of anything baring its name to keep getting fresh content and even more if it has shadows of nostalgic characters even if the writers mangle the whole universe in adhoc manner. Die hard fans is a thing.
Nick
@DmRofAtoZ "and I'm pretty sure reuniting the TNG crew without sufficient memberries would be far more objectionable and lamented !"
Exactly. That's what this season is supposed to be. If there isn't "hardcore XXX fan service porn" as @PM put it, then something is very wrong!
This episode was heavy on the fan service, no doubt about it. It wouldn't have worked if they made every episode like this but this episode had me hooked from beginning to end and it fits nicely into the overall season.
Nolan
@Booming
Did- did the writers just use one character to compliment another character's word use, that THEY wrote themselves?! Man, that "sheer fucking hubris" quote really was just the perfect signpost of egos involved here.
I dunno, I feel like the DNA of what Trek used to be was in there somewhere, but it's so mutated and garbled at this point it may as well have been Galaxy Quest's inferior sequel. They worked REALLY hard to get to that find the smoking gun/follow the smoke exchange that kinda awkwardly sat there. And of course, such a lovely and inviting room to have a briefing in.
Kyle A
Just wanted to mention that I half expected that it was Odo saving Riker. That would've been amazing to see Rene's son playing him.
Jax
"Did- did the writers just use one character to compliment another character's word use, that THEY wrote themselves?"
I almost expected Tilly to pop into the scene from nowhere and shout "that's the power of vocabulary, people!
This is a show that thinks "please friend...choose to live" is the most profound phrase ever written.
Gilligan’s Starship
@Kyle - that’s exactly where my brain automatically went, too. It was a split second before I realized, “ No wait, they can’t really do that now.”
Chase
The "burgle" line was funny, nostalgia generates endorphins, Kirk might be technically alive, and it seems like folly to assume that is the real Deanna Troi on Vadic's ship.
I liked this episode, it put characters that I like together. I'm a simple man.
Steve
FWIW, most mainstream reviews of the episode are very positive. I happened to really enjoy it. So don’t feel like it’s a crime or sun against Trekkian lore to actually enjoy this episode!
Steve
Sin, not sun.
Rich James
Can we really consider them ‘Easter eggs’ in this episode if they’re so obvious you might as well have had them cracked open on your head?
Bit too much fan service in this one for my liking. Felt like they were just shoe horning in references left right and centre. Yes, it’s done with a bit more grace than the Kelvin films but the sheer volume of them did the story a disservice.
Still, even though this is probably the weakest of the season so far it’s still decent.
Joseph B
@PM
Yeah ... That was *exactly* the way I felt.
I went through three "facial tissues" on the first viewing ... And I *loved* every second of it!!!
Silly
This was the weakest for me this season. Way over the top and on the nose with the nostalgia.
Though I agree with Andrew, the whole season could have been like this, but has generally shown admirable restraint.
I especially don't like bringing in V3 of Data. I really don't like cheap death. At least the script acknowledges this with a very fourth wall leaning comment by Raffi.
I still give it 3 stars though because to me it's the weakest in an extraordinarily strong season.
I also didn't notice any out of place cursing.
It actually occurred to me why the cursing is off putting to so many fans: it's typically very clumsy, like Picard mumbling an F bomb. It's QUITE like early Enterprise when they had T'Pol and Trip rubbing each other down in a "decontamination" scene that was practically soft core pron.
The show was trying to say "It's not your daddy's Trek, we have teh sex now!"
Mal
The Bounty
Picard season 3 episode 6
“Some kind of miraculous, almost human, positronic body.”
- Beverly, who the fuck writes this technobabble?
2 1/2 stars (out of 4)
Well the moment we’ve all been expecting has finally arrived.
No, I’m not talking about the promised reveal of Moriarty and Data.
I’m talking about the sudden yet inevitable reversion of Picard back to the level of crap writing we had all feared. Whatever miraculous, almost human, writing we’d seen in the last 5 episodes has been replaced with ChatGPT level gibberish. And yet, there are real highlights.
First, the shipping. And by that I mean the lovely flirtation between Jack and Sidney. Jackney? Sidnak? I’ll let you all come up with a good shipper name.
Next, the ships. There is something new in the physics this season. @Jammer pointed it out with the hurtling of the asteroid at The Shrike a couple weeks ago, and we saw it in that same episode with the hurtling of the shuttle at the Titan before that. The way these objects move this season is very cool. And we see it this week with ships ducking and weaving about Daystrom station. Whatever it is, I like it.
And of course the Ships. Seven & Jack’s stroll through memory lane, including a stop at Voyager. I didn’t expect that one to hit as hard as it did. I guess Jack’s drive-by poetry really is the good stuff.
And speaking of Jack, he’s really quite good. Even when the writers give him bullshit dialogue (I’m like a pot put back together with gold, only in this case with bourbon - ok then), he really delivers. It seemed odd when they cast someone so old to play someone so young, but you can’t argue with talent!
But back to the bullshit dialogue.
This episode is a clunker.
The worst offender is Raffi (surprise, surprise). Aside from the annoying 21st century isms they stick her with ("It is good to be seen"), they also pile on lines that make no sense for her to say. Why da fuck does she know who Moriarity is? (“Can someone explain why a 19th century holo vision is guarding a 25th century black site?”). Why is Raffi the one who insists Data is dead? (“I thought Data died? Twice?”).
That last line especially betrays the real problem here. It should have been Worf - not Raffi - who insisted that Data is dead. Remember how Worf took Data’s death in “The Most Toys”? Remember how insane it was for Worf when Dax came back as Ezri?? If anyone was going to be saddled with writer-room exposition to bring the audience up to speed on Data’s prior death(s), it definitely should have been Worf.
But I did give the thing 2 1/2 stars, so a little more of the good. My personal favorite was Captain Asshole geeking out with Geordi. And let’s be honest, when Data turns and says his first word: "Geordi" - Brent Spiner absolutely nails the delivery. It is cheap and manipulative. But whatever. Credit where credit’s due.
Also good is the story. I mean, over all the episode has a good plot (The Enterprise Incident meets Ocean’s 11). And the season's plot is actually also pretty good (the Changeling part - you just know they are going to fuck up Jack's back story. I keep having flashes of the horrid circle of Romulan witches who see the cyber-octopus climbing into our universe. Yeah, god, I hope they don’t do something like that. But they will…). And boy oh boy is it good to have the old gang back together again. No doubt Jesus/Wesley will ruin that eventually. But let’s enjoy it while we can.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this season. And that’s saying something, since I’ve long said that Picard is the absolute worst Star Trek ever made.
Sadly, this episode is a real step down.
My guess is there will be at least one more clunker in the last 4. But as we start Taking into the Endgame, the writers will no doubt take Extreme Measures to ensure only Good Things for All our Yesterdays.
Eric Jensen
Spoilers obviously, coming up
The good bit that stood out for me was revisiting Voyager and that ablative armoury look.
I think the plot has continued along. At least they went somewhere else in this episode.
Moriarty, sigh, was nothing more than a cameo. Wasting potential.
I liked Geordi.
Raffi is getting better... slowly
So why did they steal the body? Is that really Deanna?
Silly
As others have pointed out, they alternated been "omg we're in a hurry" and having lengthy leisurely conversations and such.
Geordi's mini arc here didn't charm me. I guess I didn't like how grumpy he was at first, but realized it certainly made sense he was super protective of his family. But that made his later "I wish I had helped steal the cloaking device!" comment feel like a record scratching.
Silly
BTW, the Moriarty felt very forced.
But maybe he comes back. Seems like he and the countess could get actual bodies now?
Norvo
Maybe it's just me, but at this point I mostly just scan through the comments. If they're over three paragraphs and I spot words like 'clunker', 'facepalm' or 'memberberries' I scroll past em. Too long. Didn't read.
Life's too short for that kind of negativity. We're on episode 7 of a consistently entertaining season of Star Trek Picard in 20-friggin'-23. Thursdays can't come fast enough for me and this TNG/DS9 fan is having the best time.
Enjoy it for what it is, because it's never coming back and it's not going to change.
Jeffrey's Tube
Anyone else find it weird that whenever Sydney is talking about "just wanting to fly the ship" and not be an engineer like her legendary father--which she has done in several episodes this season, not just this one--no one points out the Geordi flew the Enterprise-D for the entire first year he was on board rather than be its engineer?
Gilbetron
Norvo: "Maybe it's just me, but at this point I mostly just scan through the comments. If they're over three paragraphs and I spot words like 'clunker', 'facepalm' or 'memberberries' I scroll past em. Too long. Didn't read."
Nope, not just you. :) If I never see the word "memberberries" again, it will be too soon. Lol
Certain people can't be pleased. More than that, certain people don't *want* to be pleased. If the show is about something totally new, they'll complain that it's not Star Trek enough. If the show includes a bunch of references or follow-ups to established cannon, they'll complain about the fan service. It's so friggin' exhausting.
It makes me sort of long for the days before the internet when people just watched TV on their own, came to their own determination about it, and that was that. But only sort of, because I love interacting with my fellow Star Trek fans. The reasonably positive ones anyway.
As for my take? This episode rocked.
s82
The reason stories worked in DS9 was that there were no heroes or villains: the villains were just people who had conflicting motives, who became allies once their motives aligned (i.e. Klingons, even Cardassians) - and led to real, truthful storytelling. Characters like Garak grew out of this complexity and made DS9 as relevant to me as the best of literature or any meaningful art.
While TNG did not have DS9's storytelling complexity, TNG gave dignity and meaning to every character and there was rarely any melodrama or falsehood.
I could barely make it through this episode. With constant violin crescendoes, Marvellification of dialogue and plot, there was nothing of dignity, storytelling, real motive, or discerning art. Even the moments that came close to good (i.e. Seven looking at Voyager) - were manipulative. This episode shares more in common with S1 and S2 of Picard than anything that could have come out of TNG. I recently rewatched "Pre-emptive Strike" and saw what masterful writing and character work really look like - it makes ep5 of this season look like child's play. If I hear "it made me feel seen . . " one more time . . .
Jax
Anyone else find it weird that whenever Sydney is talking about "just wanting to fly the ship"
I noticed that she questioned direct orders rather than carrying them out twice just in this episode.
Caloceptri
“Forget Gene.” Exactly right! People who claim outrage on his behalf are making what is called the “appeal to authority” argument. That kind of argument is known as argumentum ad verecundiam (pedantry on this site? Shocked!). But then, this kind of remark is what passes for analysis with some nowadays. “Since when did families become fair game to the Federation?” is another example of faux-criticism. There is no reasoning behind the statement. The writer either believes that deviation from a perceived continuity has been violated, or believes that the mere fact that family members are fair game is indicative of bad storytelling per se. No. No. Btw I really hated The Wrath of Khan when I watched it last night and here is why: Since when did Kirk have a son? Since when did he have a former lover? And REALLY since when did scientists become pawns of the military? Since when did hero villain not fight face to face, since when did an Engineer bring his nephew’s corpse onto a bridge, since when could a starship hide in a nebula, and since when did starships become capable of traveling such great distances but with such puny weapons that it looks like they have taken a beating to end all bearings and are flying about on their merry way the next minute? (Since when were shield manufacturers stopped allowing refunds, perhaps?) . Writers are being criticized for making as hoc decisions, in the form disjointed ad hoc,ad hominem (and regrettably ad nauseoum) attacks. Criticizing something for what it is, doesn’t require much thought. CriticiIng something for how it is bad in going ABOUT being what it is….that is an argument. If I believe I have to be the first person to spew, even if the spewing is done within moments of episode’s end, I guess my “criticisms” would come off as bile eruptions too
Leif
@Dreubarik But technically Section 31 IS a division of Starfleet Intelligence so what is the problem? I don't see a flaw or continjity issue or any other kind of problem with that..They operate autonomously mostly yes but are still technically an outgrowth of Starfleet..
Can someone PLEASE TELL ME WHY are they making Vadic just a Changeleinf and not some NEW and ORIGINAL ALIEN life form or at least a Hybird Breen Changeling..something halfway ORIGINAL and creative please..is there still a chance
Quincy
Star Trek: Picard Season 3 Episode 6 "Bountiful Memberberries!"
It's so in your face now even the "I'm loving it!" crowd is starting to see it.
It's funny how STP is sticking it to DS9 by having everyone except Worf nowhere involved in the plot. It's like they're getting revenge for how DS9 stiffed them out of the Dominion War.
Jax
"It's like they're getting revenge for how DS9 stiffed them out of the Dominion War. "
That a Changeling vengeance story involves no character that originated on DS9 nor any Cardassian character of any kind is absurd.
I treat it accordingly.
Dreubarik
@Leif The fact they were in the original Federation charter does NOT make them part of Starfleet Intelligence. DS9 was very clear on the fact that Section 31 isn't Starfleet but a rogue organization. NuTrek loves Section 31 and can't help but whitewashing them into being some legitimate intelligence service, thus changing the entire portrayal of the Federation.
@Karl Zimmerman For the above reason, I'm unsurprised if Starfleet officers are depicted tolerating torture. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.
@Jeffrey's Tube Yes, it's deeply odd and I can only conclude Matalas et al skipped Season 1 of TNG. Also unsurprising.
Bucktown
@Gilbetron,
"If the show includes a bunch of references or follow-ups to established cannon, they'll complain about the fan service. It's so friggin' exhausting."
I think it's a fine line. Of course, there's every reasonable expectation established characters and old plots will be referenced. It's actually one of the benefits of a long running franchise.
There's a danger though when it crosses into blatant fan service, which always takes me out of the narrative. It breaks the natural believability of what's happening on screen. Did this episode need Moriarty, the Genesis device, Enterprise-A, and the morbidly implied suspended corpse of James T. Kirk? I'm going to go with "no" on all fronts.
I do, however, like when some prior reference helps tell the story or provide character development. I think we did get that with Seven talking about Voyager as well as the stealing of the cloaking device from the HMS Bounty. I almost thought it would have been even more fun if they stole the actual bird of prey rather than just the cloaking device. I'm sure the writers thought about it, but rebuilding that set would probably be mega $$$$.
M
I'm willing to forgive a lot after that hilarious meeting between Shaw and Geordi.
The Queen
Well, I just watched the Ready Room for this episode, and there is a strong hint that the changelings are not actually the driving force in the hunt for Jack. With all the references to red things and burning I can't help but wonder about pah-wraiths, but somehow that doesn't feel right.
The Ready Room also teased a new mystery character next week. Sela? Wesley the Traveler? Borgati?
Sela would answer a lot of fans' requests, and her story would fit well.
Another review site commented that with so much emphasis on the Crusher family, it would be strange not to even mention Wesley. As for Borgati, she'd be the most powerful, and she would connect the second season into this, which wouldn't be a bad idea. However, Alison Pill seemed to be definite that she wouldn't be back, and since the new character is going to be interviewed in the Ready Room, it would be interesting to see how Wheaton could interview himself. Also, it's hard to see what value the Traveler could provide. So I expect Sela.
startrekwatcher
I didn't mind the Data in a Synth body. I was actually thinking that was the direction S1 was going. That when Picard arrived on the Synth planet he would find Data in a human Synth body guiding the Synths Maddox created with his help like Soji. It would have been the culmination of his dream to become human as well as removing Brent Spiner's complaint about playing Data.
The Riker/Worf digging at each other was annoying. I like Riker but there has been too much Riker this season. Would have made more sense to send Seven with all her Borg knowledge to Daystrom. I see the writers are trying to change Worf to show some growth but for all the change he is pretty much the same. And despite saying he has adopted pacifist ways; he has racked up a solid body count this season.
You would think Starfleet would have removed the Klingon cloaking device rather than leaving it in the Bird-of-Prey.
Moriarty kind of pointless actually. Wasn't even THE Moriarty just a figment of Data's imagination.
Jack is still annoying.
Not sure why Starfleet would hold onto the human remains of Picard. Beverly removed all the Borg implants so that can't be a reason. Besides it is probably easier to study a living xB anyway. It kind of has shades of NEM with cloned Shinzon.
The humor attempts don't work for me.
Overall though I enjoyed the plot. It had some urgency, and the revelations were nicely placed. There was no sense of spinning wheels like with the scenes on M'Talas or the nebula after episode 1.
Bucktown
@The Queen,
"Sela would answer a lot of fans' requests, and her story would fit well."
I'm not sure her motivations or background necessarily jibes with the Changelings/Dominion, but I can't really think of anyone else who would want Picard's corpse for some reason. Maybe Bok? The Sela boat seems to have already sailed though, as it would have fit in better with the Romulan plot in season 1, but she is much more of a recognizable foe than Bok would be. (Bok is also too annoying.)
Honestly though, the go for broke awesome would be if they somehow convinced Avery Brooks to come back, and Sisko still harbors a grudge with Picard for the death of his wife. I'm sure not all fans would love Sisko turning heel, but if they could do it convincingly, respectfully, and with proper motivation, I'd be down.
"As for Borgati, she'd be the most powerful, and she would connect the second season into this, which wouldn't be a bad idea."
My understanding is that Matalas has already responded that no season 2 plotlines will be continued here.
StarMan
@Norvo,
"Maybe it's just me, but at this point I mostly just scan through the comments. If they're over three paragraphs and I spot words like 'clunker', 'facepalm' or 'memberberries' I scroll past em. Too long. Didn't read.
Life's too short for that kind of negativity. We're on episode 7 of a consistently entertaining season of Star Trek Picard in 20-friggin'-23. Thursdays can't come fast enough for me and this TNG/DS9 fan is having the best time.
Enjoy it for what it is, because it's never coming back and it's not going to change."
-----
Employing nostalgia-heavy callbacks to induce a "high" (aka 'memberberries) is a questionable practice. There is nothing inherently wrong with nostalgia; the criticism comes when it's heavy-handed and the underlying material sans the 'memberberries is lacking.
It is fairly dismissive to condemn every poster expressing misgivings or negative views as being impossible to please. Several posters who have met your TL;DR criteria have been complimentary of this season - myself included.
This site has always encouraged free discourse - be it positive or negative. Perhaps a venue like the startrek subreddit (where positivity is enforced) might be more your cup of tea.
John M.
"As others have pointed out, they alternated been "omg we're in a hurry" and having lengthy leisurely conversations and such."
First Star Trek episode? ;)
Jax
"First Star Trek episode? ;) "
First one where a changeling is seen smoking a pipe, yes.
Gilbetron
@Bucktown -- I fundamentally don't really understand why a group of passionate fans would ever be so anti-fan service. I mean, I'm sure someone will seek to explain it to me at great length (please don't). Isn't that a bit like going to a restaurant and then getting upset when the service is too attentive?
To be clear, I do get what "fan service" is, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a particularly cynical type of complaint. Not to mention so subjective as to be meaningless. What crosses the line into fan service for you won't cross the line for someone else. In any event, I'm a fan, and I love when a show delivers a kind of storytelling that I love. I love this, so why criticize the show for giving me something I generally like?
Whatever. Some people really don't like this. A widly vocal minority. That's fine. Feel free. Speaking for myself, a fan of Star Trek for 35+ years, I'm having the time of my life staying up late on Thursdays this season. I haven't been this moved and overjoyed by Star Trek in a *long* time. If this is heavy-handed, I guess I like heavy-handed. I guess most viewers do too, based on the responses I'm seeing. IMDB has it ranked the highest of the year, for good reason...
Jax
Jammer: "Who is Geordi's wife? Will we find out? I'd prefer it not be Leah Brahms."
The chances of having a different wife but still three children of the same gender and with the same names sounds remote, not to mention a bit creepy.
But this is nuTrek so...
DmRofAtoZ
I think I could fill the next week waiting for episode seven just replaying the "many of myself inside" over and over !.....
The way Brent Spiner plays the emerging consciousness and right after he asks "Geordi ?", The way LeVar Button turns to the others with those eyes shining ?!?
... I think it's going to slay me every single time.
Fortyseven
The fleet parade is ridiculous, but I'm operating under the assumption the Changling infestation of Starfleet helped plant and grow the seed for that particular bad idea.
They've done THEIR job, now the other Changelings will do THEIRS... whatever it might be.
Throwing chunks of dead Picard at them or something, presumably.
Fun stuff, though. I heard that there's a "blink and you'll miss it" shot where Captain Archer's body is also being held at the station. Fucking bizarre, but I'm enjoying all the risks being taken here. It'd be interesting if that WENT somewhere, but I have a feeling maybe it was just teeing up something for some future writer to pick up on when the VFX/deepfake technology improves? Or... just a bit of macabre weirdness. :)
3.5/5
Peter G.
"Who is Geordi's wife? Will we find out? I'd prefer it not be Leah Brahms."
It would be bitterly ironic if Picard's change of heart in All Good Things resulted in Deanna staying alive and marrying Will, and yet prevented Geordi marrying Leah.
Derek
"Hurry, Worf!"
Worf sloooowly changes the cassette tape. I literally laughed out loud (LLOL) at that scene.
"We need that cloak!"
They then warp back to the station uncloaked, activate the cloak, fly for three seconds, and immediately de-cloak. So why was the cloak necessary? Meanwhile I'm pretty sure the HMS Bounty could use transporters while cloaked back in 1986. (Kirk: "It's his way." Spock: gets beamed up while walking in the park.) Also why was the cloaking device heist and installation off screen, seemingly taking 5 seconds? (reason: no budget for additional dark hallways.) Then Geordi comes down to save the day, aka the culmination of his character arc this week, and we don't even get to hear him spout some technobabble and fix things. They should have just stolen the whole dang bird of prey to really amp things up.
"C sharp, A flat!"
I'll have to rewatch this bit and jab at the piano to confirm, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying the actual notes being played. Like Riker, I too am a lapsed trombonist, but I still know my enharmonics. Come on Will, it's either a D flat + A flat, or a C sharp + G sharp... /music nerd
OK that's it for my nitpicks. I actually liked this one quite a bit. The dumb nostalgia bait worked on me, not ashamed to admit it. Show me all the old ships and quote all the old music and bring back all the old characters. And hey, those clips from "Encounter at Farpoint" were a better clip show than "Shades of Gray!" ;-) Three stars.
PS - like a couple other commenters, I too very very briefly believed that somehow it would be Odo rescuing Riker. :-(
PS #2 - If this is all we see of Moriarty, it would be a HUGE waste. Probably not enough time to feature him again though given we have only four episodes to solve the GALAXY ENDING CONSPIRACY.
B-Boy
I know some people were expecting - and hoping for - more Moriarty, but I actually think this was a better use of him. Shoe-horning in the self-aware Moriarty in a bigger role in a season already brimming with call-backs and legacy characters might have been too much. This imitation (derived from Data's memories) was a nicer, more restrained use of the character.
Savushkin
@Gilbetron
I feel that fanservice is a lot like ice cream. Your parent buys you a reasonable serving after an intense baseball game on a Saturday afternoon, it's a delightful treat, an embellishment of a vivid and hard-fought day. But, if your parent brings home five tubs of Edy's with a big smile on their face on a Tuesday afternoon and says "here, enjoy all of this", it not only feels excessive and like an upset stomach is on its way, but it would just feel wrong and make me worried about my parent.
Nanji
I’ve been following these reviews for years now but finally wanted to chime in. I know some folks hate this new stuff, some love it, some (like me) are hoping for entertainment. It’s really fun to see the range of opinions and I REALLY like that people aren’t out here attacking each other left and right like they do on so many other sites. It’s been entertaining dropping not just to compare Jammer’s review against my thoughts, but to see alllll the thouguts and dialogue. Hope you folks will let me chime in henceforth! Be warned: I love DS9, TNG, and I’m managing to like this season. :)
My comment on this episode… I thought Easter was 3 weeks from now. I got me a ton of eggs today. Fun but maybe a tiny bit overdone!
Chrome
"Picard, upon getting deeper into stolen cloaking devices and still more criminal violations in the name of their mission: "I guess they'll just have to add it to my tab." Stewart's deadpan delivery of this line was quite funny."
Yeah, his delivery was great. Much of this episode sounds bonkers on paper but the straight-faced deliveries of the cast made it work.
The highlight for me was material with Sidney La Forge and Geordi. Sidney reminds me so much of season 1 Geordi and it's funny to see older Geordi be vexed by it. Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut also handled her bit wonderfully; it really felt like she wanted to be more than what her father had planned.
I have no idea why Soong would make another Data (and one that ages) but they had to figure out some way to sneak Spiner in, I suppose.
3 stars from me. Really fun and bears rewatching.
Bucktown
@Gilbetron,
"I fundamentally don't really understand why a group of passionate fans would ever be so anti-fan service. I mean, I'm sure someone will seek to explain it to me at great length (please don't). Isn't that a bit like going to a restaurant and then getting upset when the service is too attentive?"
Don't worry, I won't go into great length (lol). But like I said before, I think there's a fine line and nuance to it. It's not necessarily a binary bad if it's there, good if it isn't. Like you mention, it's more to do if it's heavy-handed or not. For example, I think the first season of the Mandalorian balanced it fairly well (while the second season did not). And personally, I don't actually love too attentive restaurant service! It breaks up the nice flow of the dining conversation, much as too much fan service breaks up the flow of a good narrative.
As someone who thought season 1 was schlocky and a wasted opportunity, and season 2 a total garbage fire travesty, I'm actually really enjoying this season a great deal (especially Riker's co-leading role). So far, it's making the whole "Picard" endeavor worth the time, money, and effort from all involved (including the fans).
Bucktown
@B-Boy,
"I know some people were expecting - and hoping for - more Moriarty, but I actually think this was a better use of him. Shoe-horning in the self-aware Moriarty in a bigger role in a season already brimming with call-backs and legacy characters might have been too much."
I don't recall who it was, but last week another commenter predicted Moriarty would actually be the secret chip Worf and Raffi get their hands on that allows them to break into Daystrom Station. Now that we know Data is the sophisticated AI security system, that would have actually been a much better choice! Who better to defeat Data's security system than a program specifically designed to defeat Data? A one-off Moriarty appearance along those lines would have also served the plot perfectly, rather than just fluffy fan service.
Quincy
@Jax
Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 4:37pm (UTC -5)
"That a Changeling vengeance story involves no character that originated on DS9 nor any Cardassian character of any kind is absurd. I treat it accordingly."
You ain't never lied.
Imagine if the alien infiltration was Species 8472 running all up in Starfleet's business (I would've actually preferred that) and nobody even mentioned Voyager? And no other cast member besides 7 appeared? And the whole story revolves around rogue 8472s showing up pissed off at Picard, who never even met them, and trying to kidnap his youthfully addle brained bastard child, not to mention, his morbidly taxidermized former carcass?
Even that wouldn't be as egregious as this because Species 8472 only appeared in 5 episodes across 3 seasons. Meanwhile, the Dominion War arc consumed 5 seasons of DS9. It was literally their primary contribution to the Star Trek mythos. If there are no other DS9 cast members besides Worf in the last 4 episodes of STP that would be a gigantic middle finger to DS9. That's only justifiable if none of them wanted to appear in STP.
Jax
"That's only justifiable if none of them wanted to appear in STP."
And in that scenario, they should have found another antagonist for the season.
Unless I missed something, now that we've had the Ferengi Snoid or whatever his name was, Cardassians are the only TNG era major race that has not been seen in live action nuTrek yet. The low hanging fruit was right there.
Hell...find a way to bring Casey Biggs' character back. THAT'S who changeling vengeance should be directed at.
Leif
Can someone PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW it makes sense for those ships to Be in the museum?? If the Defiant 2.0 and Voyager are still intact WHY ARENT THEY STILL FLYING..ITS ONLY 100 YEARS LATER!! Why sister Janeway flying that original Voyaher and Kira or Worf on that Defiant..does it make any aejse..why weren't those ships upgraded to latest specs rather than retired?? Wouldn't an upgrade and keeping I service make more sense unless the ship is really old like Kirk's Enterprise B or that old Klinger bird of prey..and Where is the USS NEW JERSEY from??
Jax
I'm wondering why the corpses of Kirk and maybe Archer would be brought to a Section 31 installation.
DogFace
So the villain stole Picard’s body and wants his son too. The villain has a super powerful ship similar to the Scimitar seen in Nemesis. The villain uses a knife that looks similar to the one used by Shinzon. And the villain she talks to looks like Shinzon’s viceroy. Please tell me this season isn’t all based on the worst villain from the worst TNG movie.
B-Boy
@DogFace
I'm pretty sure, in the expanded unvierse at least, Shinzon's knife is actually a Jem'Hadar knife that he recovered and kept.
Rahul
Mixed feelings about this one. Seems like the balance between fan service (which is admittedly a pillar of PIC) and just telling a good Trek story was off. Also feel the ethos of this episode was a bit too much like camp instead of being more serious (the Riker/Worf bit on Daystrom). Really the ending with "Data" picked things up -- thought he might turn out to be Lore, but he reveals another mystery. Some suspense there. But that "Data" is the manifest is pretty contrived -- but fan service is more important than logic. Gotta get Spiner in this season somehow.
This episode seemed to try to cram as many TNG characters as possible at the expense of improving the story. Absolutely no need for Moriarty here. Why not bring in Roy Brocksmith as "Kolrami" -- couldn't they use one of the sharpest tactical minds in the quadrant? I wonder if Wil Wheaton is super pissed that he's not on this show. These showrunners have to come up with some BS to get Wesley in this season. (But I hope they don't.)
I liked that the Jack Crusher mystery box thing was shelved here and he was just a normal bloke. Also Raffi/Worf integrating with the Titan crew gave Raffi less screen time, which is good. But I couldn't care less about the La Forge family squabbles -- of course Geordi was going to come around to helping Picard & co.
Unfortunately Captain Vadic was over-the-top kind of like the first time we saw her. The opener was just ridiculous -- really MUAHAHAHA kind of stuff (like at the end of DS9's "Strange Bedfellows").
Overall I think there was a fair bit of padding here but it's also fan service. And the poorly lit monochromatic sets were starting to grate -- PIC is just not visually appealing.
2.5 stars for "Part Six The Bounty" -- I appreciated seeing old characters again but not when it isn't completely accretive to the episode. (It's like the McCoy cameo on "Encounter at Farpoint".) Jack is coming around to Picard a bit and maybe there's a parent/child theme to this episode with the La Forges as well. Jack had a good scene with 7 as she reminisced about VOY. But these are the types of depth elements to the episode which was pretty shallow overall.
Booming
Had a little look at the imdb numbers and is more or less how I expected them to be.
- Only the first episode has more than 3000 ratings ( The first of The Last of US has more than 100.000)
- The newest episode has less than 500 ratings (the last Mandalorian episode had almost 5000(one day older))
- Most numerous age group is 45+; 18-29 is almost absent, the ratio is 1 to 16.6 (For Andor 18-29 to 45+ ratio is close 1:1; For the Last of US it is even more extreme, 18-29 is almost twice as large)
- The ratings themselves are very good for this season and probably the best for any NuTrek season.
The viewership is very old and fairly small. Star Trek Discovery's numbers four season 4 look even worse. It is no wonder that Paramount is cancelling these shows. Looking at the numbers of Strange New World is probably an indicator that this show as well won't last long. They tried to make Trek younger and give it mass appeal. I guess that has not worked.
On the plus side, I suppose, is the fact that most of the old trekkies can approach the end of the NuTrek era with a warm and fuzzy feeling.
A few words about fan service. It just feels like that creators are waving old toys in my face and screaming:"This is what you want! Happy now!!" Personally, I also do not like to be manipulated and this feels extremely manipulative. There is a certain irony in naming the first episode of this season "the new generation" considering that apart from Raffi anybody of the actual new generation was fired.
Leif
PLEASE TELL ME Jack's wondrous mysterious visions have to do still with some NEW UNQIUE ALIEN LIFE FORM AND ANOMALY and not some stupid random future space Alzheimer's..isn't anyone else worried about this..why bring this up at all if it's not really tbat..there MUSTbeNEW WONDROUS ALIENA AND ANOMALIES afoot here to make this truly great TNG sci fi please not just Changelings and Irumodic syndrome..that would be horribly disappointing
Bryan
It will not be easy to keep my remarks to three paragraphs without the words 'clunker', 'facepalm' or 'memberberries' but I accept the challenge! Maybe I'll just leave the nostalgia bait for others to discuss...
Did anyone notice how parochial our legacy characters' chief concerns have become? Geordi's preoccupation with keeping his family safe even though they're all Starfleet officers is only the most explicit example of a broader trend where Riker's seemingly sensible urge to retreat from the Shrike is somehow psychologized by the loss of his son, and Picard's normally circumspect wisdom is thrown to the wind to hyperfocus upon saving the son he just met, even if it means jeopardizing entire ships and crews. And now Riker will probably betray his "25 years of loyalty" all because Vadic got Damsel Troi. Contrast this to the good ol' "There are four lights!" days of TNG where principles like duty, honor, truth, valor came first before "me and my own". When the spirit of discovery and the quest for knowledge were the primary drivers, and the crew even had the balls bring the whole family along for the ride all with the measured risks -- and dangers be damned!
I think this ignoble backsliding is happened not because they became more conservative with age but because the showrunners want these characters to reflect the typical suburban values and mentality of the average watcher of Nu-Trek (or at least those people who they HOPE are the new audience and thereby pander to, after J.J. Abrams re-tailored Star Trek for the average Joe and Kurtzman simply followed suit in order to continue cashing in on that much broader appeal). These are predominately people who have no real utopian dreams, nor distinguished military service, who wouldn't know a parsec from a parsnip and have probably never even picked up a science fiction novel despite the contributions of such novelists in making TNG possible, the very precursor without which none of us could even be enjoying (or hating) this series since it couldn't exist! One pays no mind to those high-minded ideals, those more abstract considerations and hopes for a better future when one's horizon is limited only to such concerns as jockeying for position at the office, making sure the kids are in bed by 10, and keeping up with the mortgage payments all while ensuring an unceasing supply of coffee and one's streaming service of choice.
Norvo
"This site has always encouraged free discourse - be it positive or negative. Perhaps a venue like the startrek subreddit (where positivity is enforced) might be more your cup of tea."
Heh 😉 StarMan is operating under the false impression I don't want to hear anything negative or think people shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions. Of course not, this is the internet... What else is there to do than passionately shout into the digital oblivion hoping to be heard?
Reading critical reviews and comments more often than not makes me examine my own thoughts on any given episode. Different points of view lead to new ideas.
But it is harder to sympathise with folks who gripe and moan about the fact a TV season specifically designed to evoke nostalgia is doing just that by throwing in easter eggs, callbacks and other memberberries. It's like getting into a car only to complain that it can actually drive. "The wheels are round... And of course there's the gas pedal. Urgh, it's all so blatantly obvious!"
So that's why I prefer to skip those. Some people will find fault with anything for what they believe are perfectly justified reasons. That's their choice, just as it is mine to move on once it's clear I'm reading a nitpicky diatribe disguised as a (re)view.
Brandon Adams
I had a lot of fun. People, if you visit the Starfleet museum, there are going to be callbacks, and it doesn't feel too crazy to have Geordi running the place. I liked that they used the tour to fill out the characters.
And I'm not gonna lie...the reveal of the A, the NX-01, and Voyager filled me with joy. I had never expected to see all the old girls on screen again.
(Also, it was hilariously surreal watching the Titan-A struggling with the HMS Bounty's cloaking device with the Enterprise-A innocently looking on in the background.)
Sure, there were still stupidities reminding me of the writers' hand. Moriarty's waste. A Klingon cloaking device still operating underwater. The dialogue trying too hard (curse you, Joss Whedon, for ruining all of 21st century entertainment). Kirk's body being there, although I realize it was probably just there to make keeping Picard's body there seem less bizarre (it failed).
But the episode hits some transcendent moments still. Alton's preservation monologue, sweeping past the old relic starships while Picard reminded us we can't control what we pass on, it landed for me. Jackney was well done, though again surreal to imagine Picard, Beverly, and Geordi all serving as grandparents of the same child. And frankly I thought Levar Burton's performance was terrific.
P Car
I’d prefer it was Leah Brahms, all this is all a dream.
Silly
Regarding Wheaton, it would be weird for Wesley to not appear considering his "space mom" and half brother are the main story , and the strong "family" theme of the season.
It would be weird for Wesley not to show up if it were just Beverly alone. And Wheaton is tight with the production, running the companion talk show.
--
This wasn't my favorite Riker outing, but I've really liked Riker and Frakes' performance throughout the season. I like him far more than in the latter half of TNG. I could even watch a "Riker" show.
Dan
Jax vomited: "The stupid kicks in within seconds in this episode as we opened with the stupid nuTrek "stop on a dime" exit from warp drive."
If this isn't hate-watching, I don't know what is. Seriously, what drives you to continue wasting your time on a show you obviously don't like other than to have a reason to spew nerd rage here?
Dan
@Norvo
"So that's why I prefer to skip those. Some people will find fault with anything for what they believe are perfectly justified reasons. That's their choice, just as it is mine to move on once it's clear I'm reading a nitpicky diatribe disguised as a (re)view."
Could not agree with you more. Some of the critters here need to stop hate-watching this show, go outside, and touch grass.
Booming
Well Dan, if we are sharing then let's keep in mind that constantly reading reviews and getting really angry about them, let's call it hate-reading, doesn't seem too healthy either.
People really loved TNG and quite a few went from "hate watching" to liking it during this season. Some needed several episodes for that switch. Let's not forget, this is the last season with the original TNG cast. Should we not complement the people who still don't like it but keep hoping that they also might start to like, maybe even love it. That the next episode will be good, no great, for them.
Sure, for hate-readers, such as yourself it might be a bother but for many others it is not. There might even be a few who enjoy reading the more negative views of their fellow Trekkies. How different good-hearted people can perceive the same thing. Is there not maybe even deeper lesson to be learned here?
For comparison, if somebody loves America but criticizes what state it is in now, do you tell this person to pack their bags and move to China?! To love economic exploitation as long as it comes with flag swinging and parades? Surely not. :)
PS: I'm diating and feeling a little light headed.
Dirk
Thank you for your review Jammer, it was an enjoyable read. This definitely was a kitchen sink episode and I'm going to have to watch it again before I write much about it.
I adored the scene with Seven and Voyager, it made me cry a lot. Instantly it became one of my favorite scenes of all Trek.
Filip
In what has so far been a great season and especially coming off the wings of the previous two episodes which were stellar, this has got to be the weakest instalment of the season thus far. It really was a hot mass, which isn't saying that it was bad. It was just too much in too little time, and is again a direct consequence of blowing so much screen time and budget on the previous two seasons without telling a single relevant story, that the writers who actually care are now forced to use the little time and money the studio has left.
This would've worked much better split into two episodes which would've allowed to further develop the material seen on screen and give the viewers a moment or two to take a breath. The line between actual Starfleet and compromised ships hunting the Titan really became too blurry and I had a hard time determining where all those ships were coming from. Moriarty's appearance was a total dud and a cameo more than anything else. Not at all what I was expecting. At the end, it's completely unclear to me whether that was actually Moriarty from TNG (if so, how did he get out of his box?) or if that was a computer replica made by... who and why exactly? This was a really wasted opportunity to delve deeper into the resolution of Elementary, Dear Data and to reflect upon our 'pathetic old warriors'. Instead, the hologram disappeared as quickly as it appeared (although arguably his appearance would've been much more impactful had it not been spoiled by the trailers). In regards to Data and his third resurrection, I don't even know what to say here, so let's see how this plays out. Finally, I wish that we've had more time to dive deeper into Geordi's reasoning behind protecting his daughters and the whole parent/child philosophy, but alas, given the time given to the episode, it wasn't half bad.
My biggest gripe here is the revelation of what was actually stolen from Daystrom because it directly validates all the bullshit that happened in season one by making it into an actual overarching plot element, which is kind of a disappointment as I was under the impression that the new forces that be tried to distance themselves from the dreck before.
At the risk of repeating myself, I am not saying the episode was bad, it was just too damn all over the place and it would've been much, much more enjoyable to have it spread out over more screen time. Finally, the walk down the memory lane was great, as was seeing all the ships in the museum (in particular the Defiant). Despite the season's flaws, it's wonderful finally seeing modern Trek respect, embrace and proudly display its legacy, and it shows the writers' hearts are in the right place. Had we had the same team work on this from season one with all its budget and screen time, Picard could've easily been one of the greatest iterations of Trek, up there with TNG and DS9.
Keith Dalton
Picard: "Admiral, do you read us?"
Worf: "He does not."
I never thought I'd see Worf eye-roll. I loved it.
Silly
BTW, kudos where kudos are due: someone sure did their homework about those ships at the museum. They could have easily flubbed this, but I didn't see any mistakes
The TOS Enterprise wasn't there because it was refit to become the movies 1-4 Refit. The Refit wasn't there because it was destroyed. So, we got the "New Jersey" as a TOS stand in and the 1701-A as the extant Constitution Class ship.
Likewise, in surprising restraint, the D doesn't miraculously appear cobbled back together.
---
I kind of wonder if the original idea was for the heroes to abandon the Titan and take either the Bounty or the Defiant but this was abandoned due to costs. The episode certainly creates the expectation they need to do this.
Gilligan’s Starship
Now that Picard’s body is part of the plot, I’m wondering if, thru some Changeling technology + Soongian magic, they’re going to reanimate it and transfer synth-Picard’s consciousness back into it.
Not saying I want that to happen , just wondering if that’s where we’re headed.
Nolan
@Silly
Was going to write about not being sure they did *all* their research, as I wasn't sure this "New Jersey" original Constitution-Class ship fit in because I thought all 12 of the original Constitutions were known. Certainly they could've built some after Kirk's line about there only being 12 in the fleet, and it certainly seems that new Constitution ships in the Refit style were built during the movie era, but as I tried to recall which ones have been on screen or identified as of the class on screen (As well as generally accepted fan canon), I only got 11 for sures. The 12th was never definitively identified among the possibilities. So I guess it was an open slot?
01 -:Constitution (obviously)
02 - Enterprise (again, obviously)
03 - Yorktown
04 - Defiant
05 - Excalibur
06 - Lexington
07 - Constellation
08 - Exeter
09 - Hood
10 - Potemkin
11 - Intrepid
12 - ???
So I guess it's the New Jersey? (Although I still personally struggle with accepting anything of this 3rd wave of Trek into the lore - if I let one thing in, I gotta eventually let the rest of the bullshit in too)
Defor
I truly enjoyed this episode containing some of the best short-but-sweet dialogues of the season.
Geordi-Sidney confrontation brought tears to my eyes, as well as the ship-talk between Seven and Jack. Worf-Riker dynamic is witty and hilarious. Sidney-Jack and Shaw-LaForge moments made me smile. And Data's first moments after waking up, priceless!
Keep it up Picard producers and writers. Another home-run outing.
And thanks for the always-noteworthy review, Jammer.
Yanks
Well, that gang's all here... now maybe we'll find out why.
Loved the "star ship porn"... Doug Drexler is doing cartwheels on FB. Finally, 7 sounded like 7. That only took 2 and a half seasons.
Why on Earth would they dig up Kirk's grave and preserve him Star Trek's area 51?
The crow, Moriarty... it was OK, but why was that tune in his head? Did Data choose him to be the gatekeeper? ... or was he activated after Data witnessed the theft to be a gatekeeper to allow Riker/Picard in hoping they would come looking? What happens if Riker doesn't remember the whistle thing? I'm a little lost here.
Geordi was awesome. Loved meeting his real-life daughter. I also really enjoyed his on-screen daughter. I found Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut's performance here quite outstanding.
They took Picard's body? haha... I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I didn't see that one coming.
No frellin idea what Vadic really is, what her henchman are, what the "wrist baddie" is, what the Changelings have up their sleeves and why, and what Jack has to do with all this. We've literally taken 6 episodes to get the gang back together. I'm fine with that. We still have 4 more episodes to figure this all out.
This was a really enjoyable watch. Not on par with the last couple of episodes, but still really good.
3 stars is about right.
Bok R'Mor
Just really dispiriting viewing. I can't even summon the strength to list everything that had my head in my hands during that. I realise many if not most will consider it profound but I just found it depressingly manipulative.
Seven's lines about Voyager were such a wasted opportunity. It was extremely moving, played well by Ryan - interrupted by the moronic 'Jack' 'Crusher'. They could have made an episode out of Seven's emotions in that scene. It would have been outstanding.
Instead they give us more dysfunctional bollocks. Everything and everyone is hopelessly 'broken', all the time. Now it's Geordi and Sidney.
The Data reveal was daft.
Good grief, the shit this show puts us through. I need a drink.
Bucktown
@Dan,
"If this isn't hate-watching, I don't know what is. Seriously, what drives you to continue wasting your time on a show you obviously don't like other than to have a reason to spew nerd rage here?"
I don't fault anyone from airing complaints, grievances, criticism, etc. at any point (they're sometimes insightful and funny), but the one thing I do find a bit strange is that, given often the first one posting, Jax watches a lot of these episodes as soon as they go live. If I grew to hate something, unless it was for my job, I wouldn't be jumping at the bit at the first allowable chance to suffer it. Maybe that's just me.
Silly
@Nolan
Something that gave me a chuckle is the lack of a Galaxy Class. There are younger ships here than that class, Voyager and Defiant.
A chuckle because maybe there aren't any left due to that class tending to, um, explode ;)
@DogFace
There really are several shades of Nemesis here. It doesn't bother me though because while that movie was awful, it was just badly executed. But many of the elements were fine and the plot sounds pretty decent on paper.
After all TNG was built from elements of The Motion Picture (and the aborted Phase II). Riker/Decker, Deanna/Ilia, Data/Xon.
Booming
Yeah, I noticed that, too.
Jax would you care to share why you watch this show immediately and then post about it here? You are often the first to post. And please imagine me saying this in a Zooey Deschanelish way
Some inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqDgX3AgSOw
Maq
I did not suffer seeing it but it felt a little bit like a transportation to the next episode. Still some good scenes and acting.
I am glad they did not make Moriaty more present. I never really liked those episodes.
Silly
Fan service is like adding red pepper to your pizza. A little is great but a cup full isn't.
It's extremely annoying when fan service is wedged in at a cost to the plot. And too much fan service can push a work into outright parody.
Also, fan service now is nowhere near as rewarding as it was 20 years ago or whatever when it was harder to watch what was being referenced. Now it's like "yeah you know I could just go watch the real thing."
Fan service can be a lazy cheap way to hide defects in a work. *cough*jj*cough*
Again though, while this was drenched in fan service, overall the season hasn't been too bad at all, so I don't mind. If the whole season were like this, it would be dreadful.
Quincy
@Yanks
Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 12:02pm (UTC -5)
"The crow, Moriarty... it was OK, but why was that tune in his head? Did Data choose him to be the gatekeeper? ... or was he activated after Data witnessed the theft to be a gatekeeper to allow Riker/Picard in hoping they would come looking? What happens if Riker doesn't remember the whistle thing? I'm a little lost here."
I'm pretty sure that Moriarty is a part of the Data/A.I. Gumbo entity. At the very least he was a program that the Data/A.I. called. At worst he's just more gravy in that entity's mental mashed potatoes. Either way this really craps all over the Moriarty character. He's either an app at the Data/A.I. OS's beck and call or a split personality locked in a $#!%y mind timeshare contract.
I don't know if the Data personality normally has control of the entity's actions, but he definitely TOOK control when the entity saw Riker. The A.I. only generates the Moriarty "security response" complete with mandatory music lesson at the exact moment it detects Riker. That whole sequence is nothing more than a CAPTCHA to verify Riker's identity. I'm pretty sure that the entity would've decided Riker at least was a changeling and killed him if he couldn't answer the CAPTCHA correctly. I don't know if he would give the others a chance, or not. It's possible he would since Data has had moments alone with Worf and therefore has ways to authenticate Worf even if a changeling had infiltrated his party. If Worf and Riker both fail Raffi is definitely toast.
I don't know why you'd want to create an A.I. with all these unreliable and some down right malevolent parts. It seems like the absolute worst thing you could do when attempting to create an artificial intelligence. Obviously stability is going to be compromised. How would that ever be desirable?
Kuebel
I was always under the impression (because of "The Enterprise Incident" *) that older cloaking devices are useless because the enemy has analysed their weaknesses.
Every modern starship should detect a 100 year old cloak.
*
COMMANDER: You realise that very soon we will learn to penetrate the cloaking device you stole.
SPOCK: Obviously. Military secrets are the most fleeting of all.
Sigh2000
@Bok R'Mor
"I realise many if not most will consider it profound but I just found it depressingly manipulative.
The big conference scene was very deep...
Worf saying "We must begin the beguine"
really took it to the limit.
Picard could have replied "it takes two to tango" : )
Dan
@Booming
"Well Dan, if we are sharing then let's keep in mind that constantly reading reviews and getting really angry about them, let's call it hate-reading, doesn't seem too healthy either."
If you find my posts to be angry, that says a lot about you. I find Jax's nerd rage posts mildly entertaining, especially since he's the first one you run into in these review threads. You'll note that I don't respond to every negative post made here, by Jax or whomever. If I were doing that, you might have a point about "hate-reading" or whatever. But it's hard to avoid some of these comically nitpicky rants while trying to read posts that actually have worthwhile points and thoughts.
At a certain point, one become little more than a pedantic nerd who really needs to stop watching what ails them, go outside and touch some grass. I mean, Jammer stopped watching Andromeda when it became clear to him that it wasn't enjoyable. Be like Jammer, maybe?
Or at the very least, if you're going to do the nitpicky thing, be like Red Letter Media? They at least make you laugh.
"For comparison, if somebody loves America but criticizes what state it is in now, do you tell this person to pack their bags and move to China?! To love economic exploitation as long as it comes with flag swinging and parades? Surely not. :)"
It's absurd to compare complaints about where you live to those about a show you (hate)watch. It's easy to turn off the TV/close the stream/whatever if something you're watching angers and displeases you that much. It's not so easy to just change or up and leave a country, city, etc.
Ron
"This episode shares the same traits as most Lower Decks episodes, with a potential for a good episode hidden underneath too much fan service.
Almost every scene had a callback to something from the past:
- LaForge sees Beverly? A violin TNG song plays in the background.
- Daystrom? ST movie references are made at literally every corner.
- Star Trek Museum? A parade of classic ships.
- The solution to rescue the away team? The same as in The Enterprise Incident.
- The freaking mainframe at Daystrom? Data 3.0 Urghh
This really diminishes the show, and it's a trend in all nuTrek: there are no ideas, concepts, or villains of its own.
Beyond the nostalgia overdose, the episode itself is awkwardly written, with the characters explaining every detail of what they would do and why. It felt unnatural and looked like they were talking to the audience instead of to each other.
I am giving it 2 stars, and I'm being generous.
Dan
@Bucktown
"I don't fault anyone from airing complaints, grievances, criticism, etc. at any point (they're sometimes insightful and funny), but the one thing I do find a bit strange is that, given often the first one posting, Jax watches a lot of these episodes as soon as they go live. If I grew to hate something, unless it was for my job, I wouldn't be jumping at the bit at the first allowable chance to suffer it. Maybe that's just me."
It's not just you.
We now have people who think that criticism of a movie, show, etc. is little more than a sin count. Hey, I didn't think the Star Wars sequels were good, but I can't imagine being so driven by anger about it that I'd make hours of YouTube videos detailing every bit of minutiae that I found sketchy or unenjoyable (not exaggerating; look up MauLer or search for "A Critique of Star Wars The Force Awakens/Last Jedi" on YouTube).
Anyways -- I've certainly made mental notes about what posters to avoid in the future!
Jax
Oh no...I'm to be avoided if I don't love everything I see on the nuTrek-o-tron! Whatever will I do?
Funny...I recall Jammer still writing up reviews for episodes that he only gave one star to...or none...
Lord Garth
Well it took longer than the first two seasons to get to the "hilariously dumb" stage. I mean I found the first five episodes kind of dumb in certain ways, but they were at least functional and sometimes entertaining episodes of tv (Riker threw an asteroid at a ship! It was fun!) This though...
Literally going from "LOOK IT'S JIM KIRK'S F***ING CORPSE NO IT'S MORIARTY NO IT'S POP GOES THE WEASEL NO IT'S DATA NO IT'S EVERY SOONG ANDROID IN ONE HUMAN BODY THAT CAN SHOOT HOLOGRAMS OUT ITS EYES FOR SOME F***ING REASON" gave me ANGRY WHIPLASH. The Daystrom Institute in TNG was a scientific research facility...why the fuck would the space station where SECTION 31 (OF COURSE IT'S F***ING SECTION 31 AGAIN) keep corpses and broken robots be named "Daystrom"? Oh that's right, it's a word people remember from Star Trek.
Why would the second Defiant that was in like the last two episodes of DS9 be in a museum? It's not even that old!
Remember "no changeling has ever harmed another"? Remember how Odo and the Female Changeling stuck to this even when they were fighting on opposing sides in an intergalactic war? Oops, Vadic just pointlessly murdered another changeling to show how EVIL she is! Why are these things even Founder Changelings? They might as well just be a totally different species; they're completely different. Oh it's because Matalas is incapable of going ten seconds without saying "THIS THING RELATES TO THAT OTHER THING even though the details are all wrong."
And even trying to judge this just as an episode of tv on its own...it was all over the place. It didn't tell a coherent story. And the dialogue was so bad. Crusher talking about her son's brain being "OVERCLOCKED" as if that's a thing a doctor in the 25th century would say, let alone Beverly Crusher.
And yeah it's nice seeing Levar Burton again, Shaw has a few good moments, and sometimes Patrick Stewart makes a face that makes me feel like I'm watching Jean-Luc Picard for half a second, but this is Not Good.
Booming
@Dan
"You'll note that I don't respond to every negative post made here, by Jax or whomever."
That is true but all the comments you made during season 3 were negative comments about people having a negative opinion. Hate commenting ?
" If I were doing that, you might have a point about "hate-reading" or whatever."
I find the word "hate watching" pretty stupid so I thought I add something equally stupid.
"At a certain point, one become little more than a pedantic nerd who really needs to stop watching what ails them, go outside and touch some grass."
Freedom is a complicated concept. People constantly make decisions other people don't understand. Who are you going around telling people how to spend their time?! The sheer fucking hubris!
"Or at the very least, if you're going to do the nitpicky thing, be like Red Letter Media? They at least make you laugh."
Yes guys, if you want to write something negative just do it at the quality level of professional artists. Without sound and the medium of film.
"Anyways -- I've certainly made mental notes about what posters to avoid in the future!"
Well, that is really all anybody asks of you. Just say no!
Caloceptri
Now people people who claim others hate-watch are hate-readers. By definition.
This is I-know-you-are-but it what-am-I-ism. I read comments on there because I find many of the posts to be or interest-for many different readings. Some are funny and I have commented on an observation humorously told. I guess that makes me an evil “humor-reader.” Some raise good points about a story or plot point. I guess commenting on this makes one a point-pointer-outer-readermonger. Criticism of a comment means the critic is hateful. This biazrroism is why too much exposure to this forum (or any other forum) is not a good idea. You are bound to run into the self-anointed thought police. They will call your name out and ask you why you didn’t like something even when you did not mention their name (even if such call outs are made in gest, it’s too much. I didn’t like Jax’s comments and said so; I do not feel the need to talk to others about those comments without Jax in the conversation, as if he/she were not there. One of Jammer’s founding rules for posts on this site is to not make things personal. I admit to having done so and apologize and will try to be better. However, I do not come here for the express PURPOSE of making things personal. Points of view can be debated but assuming things about others and then psychoanalyzing those others is kind of vulgar and tasteless. That some people have done it in the past doesn’t condone it’s being one now. Stop looking to pick fights, stop baiting, stop living for things to be offended by).
Silly
I have a headache.
StarMan
@Booming "Had a little look at the imdb numbers and is more or less how I expected them to be.
- Only the first episode has more than 3000 ratings ( The first of The Last of US has more than 100.000)
- The newest episode has less than 500 ratings (the last Mandalorian episode had almost 5000(one day older))
- Most numerous age group is 45+; 18-29 is almost absent, the ratio is 1 to 16.6 (For Andor 18-29 to 45+ ratio is close 1:1; For the Last of US it is even more extreme, 18-29 is almost twice as large)
- The ratings themselves are very good for this season and probably the best for any NuTrek season."
Interesting. My takeaway is - the uptake of new fans just isn't happening. Yet, there are those clamoring for another spin-off (because apparently cancelling Discovery without warning is a sign of positive things to come). I'll be surprised if any of these spin-off ideas actually see the light.
I would say the Kurtzman era has been successful in holding onto a portion of the fanbase. But in terms of mainstream growth, that seems to have been a big ol' fail - hence why we're now going all in on the nostalgia to placate the remaining viewership.
Ironically, we're almost back to where we were in the early 2000s: one live-action series - a TOS prequel - and a movie franchise dead in the water.
Jammer
"Funny...I recall Jammer still writing up reviews for episodes that he only gave one star to...or none..."
Well, to be fair, I tried to be fair, and the tone wasn't universal across an entire season or series. When someone posts a litany of daily complaints about non-subsantive things like the warping-in effect, it comes across kinda axe-grind-y. Or posting such a litany 45 minutes after the show was released, which means not only did they make sure they immediately watched the show in the middle of the night when it hit the street, but did it on an ad-free plan?
I remember someone once complained about animated text rotating into view on an on-screen title, as if that was some sign of awful taste by the creators.
I definitely don't think everyone should love these shows, and it would be boring if we all did. But there are also degrees of criticism, and some of it definitely has a more caustic and mean-spirited tone to it that just sounds really angry. And the attacks on the writers, their motives, their intelligence, and so on can be pretty merciless. Just sayin'.
Jax
"the writers, their motives, their intelligence"
So none of those things were what was wrong with, say, Let He Who Is Without Sin..."?
What was it then, the apparel?
Jammer
"the writers, their motives, their intelligence"
"So none of those things were what was wrong with, say, Let He Who Is Without Sin..."?
What was it then, the apparel?"
There's a big difference between criticizing the writing of an episode and attacking the character of the writers themselves week in and out, and I see a lot of the latter these days -- saying people are hacks, or don't have any semblance of literacy or intellectualism or integrity or whatever. The people saying these things don't know that. A lot goes into a television show beyond what the writers contribute. Executives and corporations may have certain requirements and are going to have their say. It's what I'm always saying on here about making it about the material and not the person. Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, but I think people deserve the benefit of the doubt and shouldn't always be assumed to be awful and used as punching bags.
But, hey, that's just me. You do you.
None of this is new, anyway. The same was said about Berman & Braga 20-plus years ago.
Jax
"Executives and corporations may have certain requirements and are going to have their say."
No one suffered from that more than Voyager and Enterprise. Especially their promos.
Jax
"But in terms of mainstream growth, that seems to have been a big ol' fail - hence why we're now going all in on the nostalgia to placate the remaining viewership."
It doesn't help that episodes have become seasons. A bad hour can't be quarantined and moved past anymore...it metasticizes.
Sigh2000
Don't want to spread negative information but I just saw the Shaw actor (Todd Stashwick) playing a Vulcan security officer in an old episode of Enterprise. He wasn't very nice to T'pol and he got beaten up by Archer pretty severely.
Bryan
Ah yes, back when Sex Appeal was mandated by the studio execs and showrunners. If there's at least one positive that's come out of 'teh woke' of Nu-Trek, it's that cynically and gratuitously trading on the appeal of the idealized female body has been toned down. There's not much that can be said in defence of Enterprise, but at least Voyager's Jeri Ryan was and still is so much more than than merely a model-like actress, and got to play a character that was pretty well-written too. It's interesting that Voyager triumphed in spite of, rather than because of this sort of executive meddling but some of us feel that at least some of the Nu-Trek series haven't been similarly buoyed by deeper substance to offset the more cynical machinations that probably lurk in the background. If it's not one thing, then it's another...
Dan
"Oh no...I'm to be avoided if I don't love everything I see on the nuTrek-o-tron! Whatever will I do?"
I'm sure that what you'll do is furiously type another nitpicky rant immediately Ep. 7 is over. Maybe 6 ships will do their "stop on a dime" thing at the same time, making the episode completely unwatchable! I mean, one is horrific enough, right? =)
"Funny...I recall Jammer still writing up reviews for episodes that he only gave one star to...or none..."
Jammer writes engaging and readable criticism whether he likes an episode or not -- he doesn't just do a sin count of every little annoyance. This is why I continue to come to this site -- the bell-ringing, Cinema Sins-type "criticism" is boring and overdone; there's no thought to it.
And I can't recall any season of a show in which every review Jammer wrote was all negative, all the time. As I mentioned before, he stopped watching/reviewing Andromeda when it became truly unenjoyable for him. Imagine not willingly submitting yourself to something you dislike! Radical thinking.
Gorn with the Wind
I liked this episode quite a bit until the ending, which felt extremely plotty and not at all like a satisfying ratcheting up of the tension derived from character conflict, choices, or growth.
2.5/3 stars.
Gorn with the Wind
2.5/4, I should say
Dan
@Booming
"That is true but all the comments you made during season 3 were negative comments about people having a negative opinion. Hate commenting ?"
I mostly come here to read, not comment. And since Picard is a serialized show, I prefer to wait until the season is done before finalizing my thoughts and feelings. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in what others might be thinking in the meantime, and I read the positive, the neutral and the negative posts equally. But there are negative reviews, and then there's just nitpicking tripe. I try to gloss over that, and usually do...but every once in a while I'm prone to jumping into the gutter and getting into a slap fight with the whores.
...that's meant in a humorous manner, just to be clear. I'm not actually looking for a fight, nor do I think anyone here is a whore. Seems silly to have to explain that, but here we are.
"I find the word "hate watching" pretty stupid so I thought I add something equally stupid."
OK.
"Who are you going around telling people how to spend their time?! The sheer fucking hubris!"
Oh, don't be so dramatic.
"Yes guys, if you want to write something negative just do it at the quality level of professional artists. Without sound and the medium of film."
You don't have to be a professional writer to express a thoughtful opinion, be it positive/neutral/negative.
"Well, that is really all anybody asks of you. Just say no!"
This strikes me very much as you telling me how to spend my time. Who are you to do that?! The fucking hubris!
/dramatic voice
Silly
It's interesting to look at imdb review count as a proxy for ratings.
I actually wonder if having the Trek shows inside a relatively small steamer ultimately hurts its popularity, vs having it on things like Prime and Netflix. The basic premise is actually pretty weird and esoteric. I can see non-fans finding it and liking it, but not hunting for it.
Quincy
I really don't understand why people annoyed, appalled, disgusted, or otherwise just sick and tired of negative comments don't take their own advice and scroll on by those comments. That's it. That's your solution. The one you attempted to give other people, just give it to yourself. If your solution works, you'd be the best one to benefit.
I've often been annoyed at misplaced political discussions that consumed the board totally derailing any conversation about the episode. This happened often in the Discovery board. Unless someone was specifically addressing me, I tried to stay out of it. I sometimes failed, but that's my fault. I'll just try harder next time.
Tanner
It does not make sense to me that the Defiant and Voyager are in a museum, they aren't that old, really.
B-Boy
@Tanner
I can see how certain ships that are particularly distinguished in their service history might be retired early for posterity.
mosley
Im constantly amused by all the "how can people like this?" / "how can people not like this?" orgies here.
How about this : worry about whether *you* or don't like it, and stop denying the agency of other viewers who might have a different taste. It's perfectly clear that at this point, a franchise with such a long and often troubled history as trek will produce opposing views with anything they do.
So, my own views and nothing but those : yeah, the episode was kind of all over the place but... I kinda liked it for that :-)
It was bold. It tried to do a lot of things. Some things failed, but with trek (old and new, mind you) usually erring on the side of playing it safe, I can appreciate this for the things that work and forgive the ones that don't.
The one thing that was a blatant and downright stupid mistake was a classic nutrek one : install a ticking clock dynamic, *then* have lots of character scenes that pretend there is no ticking clock.
Like... How often will they make this dumb, unnecessary mistake? Do your character material first, *then* start the ticking clock. Aaaargh. It's so simple. Such an easy to avoid mistake. Sabotaging all the character scenes because it makes the viewer go "helloooo! *points at clock* no time for this!"
Ah well, but since this silly mistake has been made so often in nutrek, I'm trained to ignore it. And then, a lot of the character material works.
Also liked the Riker Worf dynamic. Did not feel forced to me at all. This is a dynamic that's been long established and earned. No complaints.
Also like the quick back and forth throughout the quadrant. Makes the show feel like it lives in the actual trek universe. It's been so long that any new trek show managed to do just that. Lots and lots of extra points from me for that. Using the established universe. Nice.
Don't care for the mustache twirling lady. Moriati was also wasted, but never cared for him during TNG either so I don't care.
MPD data, I like. Spiner has the skills to do that. Let's see where he takes it.
Stewart feels increasingly natural and effortless. That's a very very big plus, for a show called Picard, obviously. Good. Must be the positive influence of Frakes, I think ;)
Wonderful moment with seven and voyager. Nice.
But how they could do all that ship nostalgia and *not* show the D (or some sister galaxy class ship) is beyond me. Every shot, I was waiting for her to show up.
Here's hoping they're just saving this for later. Like, you're clearly enjoying the fan service game. Might as well go all the way then please. Especially since the D has something no nutrek has...
...lights that actually light the room. Crazy thought, I know :-)
Jammer
"It does not make sense to me that the Defiant and Voyager are in a museum, they aren't that old, really."
I guess it depends on if you go by this quote:
"Jim, the Enterprise is 20 years old. We feel her day is over." -- Star Trek III
Is 20 years too young for a starship to be retired? I would say so based on the assumptions of future tech. But if you think of it in terms of a car, that's pretty old, which is the standard which I think this was based on, right or wrong. So this follows logically from that.
Nick
It's really hard to say if the Defiant and Voyager should be in a museum or not, but my guess is they would have been retired long ago. It's not implausible to assume that advances in replicator technology or power generation made it easier to build starships, therefore increasing the rate of their replacement. It's also possible the technology Voyager brought home made all existing ships obsolete and a new generation of ships was built. Or maybe these ships just had a lot more unrepairable structural wear and tear given all the action they saw. There are so many possible reasons why these ships are in a museum.
IMO it's a wasted opportunity for some good worldbuilding post TNG/DS9/VOY. S1 and S2 could have explored this if they weren't so busy producing garbage.
Patrick
"Is 20 years too young for a starship to be retired? I would say so based on the assumptions of future tech. But if you think of it in terms of a car, that's pretty old, which is the standard which I think this was based on, right or wrong. So this follows logically from that."
Better comparison is airplanes, jets, navy ships. They are not consumer goods. 20-40 years I guess. Oldest aircraft carrier is the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, build date 1977. It will be replaced in 2029 by the USS Enterprise which is being build since 2018 (if stick to schedule, big if).
MidshipmanNorris
As batshit as this is getting, I will accept anything for Data waking up and saying "Geordi?" as his first words.
Welp, the gang's all here, after all. Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings.
Booming
@Caloceptri
"One of Jammer’s founding rules for posts on this site is to not make things personal. I admit to having done so and apologize and will try to be better."
Considering that you did that in the post I'm quoting from, I'm not sure how much trust we can put in your promise.
@Starman
"Interesting. My takeaway is - the uptake of new fans just isn't happening."
I guess that was Kurtzman's pitch. Create something that has mainstream appeal comparable to TNG. TNG with 15-20 million viewers certainly had that. It also had significant cultural impact.
" hence why we're now going all in on the nostalgia to placate the remaining viewership."
I really wonder what their thinking was. The fan expansion did not work so let's at least keep the fans this franchise has?
Sci Fi in general always has an uphill battle. A few weeks back I watched The Good Fight until the end of season 3. It's amusingly crazy and really embraces that. It has less ratings. One has to keep in mind though that ratings are just an indicator for engagement with some significant downsides (for example male to female ratio; a show popular with women will have far less ratings). The good fight is far cheaper to produce than any Sci Fi show. Costs only go up when contracts are renewed. Star Trek Picard started with very high costs for the cast and is probably very expensive because of all the CGI. That is likely the reason that the first two season were dark, gritty and full of contemporary problems. After Discovery wasn't developing as they hoped, they tried a somewhat desperate move to force a TNG like rating success. After season 1 of Picard it was clear that this did not happen. So they pulled the plug.
I wonder if Paramount+ will be the first big victim of the streaming wars because they seem unable to reach the level of Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+.
https://flixpatrol.com/streaming-services/subscribers/
They are not dead yet but their big Star Trek gamble did not pan out. Their catalogue is fairly weak. Looking at their offering, apart from Star Trek, which is still featured most prominently on their page, I don't even know the other shows.
@Dan
"Oh, don't be so dramatic."
Yam yam.
"Who are you to do that?! The fucking hubris!"
You forgot the sheer!
Janeways Labrat
Seven is, of course, a nice hat tip to voyager as was the reminiscing scene. Where did Naomi Wildman end up? She was a very smart gal and I can’t imagine she’s running a greasy spoon in NuNuNew York. Tuvok is startlingly absent, given Tim Russ’s long engagement across multiple franchises. Even Paris/Locarno. We still have 5 shows so it’s all possible.
Janeways Labrat
Let’s think about what Voyager went through in the delta quadrant. That ship, that poor poor ship. Wasn’t it completely time fractured at one point? Not to mention what Red did to it in Year of Hell(s). It’s been through multiple transwarp accidents, stuck in voids, harvested by life forms.
There have to be micro hull fractures and other structural problems which make the ship unreliable for daily use. Is starfleet still using bioneural gel paks? There are borg alcoves on that ship… and please please no, the Fairhaven holo program must be quarantined.
I think you leave it in mothballs.
StarMan
@Booming "I wonder if Paramount+ will be the first big victim of the streaming wars because they seem unable to reach the level of Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+."
Well, the tolerance for companies running billions into the red on content creation has run dry. As for Paramount in particular, there has always been significant doubt over their entry into the Streaming Wars on Wall Street. I don't think anyone had any allusions about Paramount+ growing to Netflix / Amazon levels of engagement.
A huge chunk of the $$$ spent on padding out their libraries was a gamble on growing and retaining future subscriptions. Fast forward to present, Disney+ has lost I don't know how many million subs (myself among them). Paramount might be a smaller fish, but they haven't been shy throwing money at their platform over the past few years. So far as Disney and Amazon, they both have very deep pockets - Amazon in particular isn't short on other revenue streams.
We'll see services amalgamate to survive, while the bigger fish scoop up smaller entities for their libraries and IPs. I'm not saying Paramount is going to get bought out tomorrow, but their growth story might be under serious scrutiny behind closed doors. If the good times are over, the business model needs to adapt. I think Discovery's axing was just that. I wouldn't be so sure new shows costing hundreds of millions of dollars a pop are going to fly off the production line.
"They are not dead yet but their big Star Trek gamble did not pan out. Their catalogue is fairly weak. Looking at their offering, apart from Star Trek, which is still featured most prominently on their page, I don't even know the other shows."
Yellowstone and its prequels are its biggest hits. I don't watch them but my mother is a big fan. Although they're hardly cheap with the location shoots and A-list salaries.
If I were an executive at Paramount mulling Trek's future in this environment, I might be asking how *little* Trek I could get away with without losing subs. At the end of the day though, we don't know how big a driver Trek is for their platform. But I would imagine if Discovery was one of the platform's biggest drawcards, they wouldn't have so abruptly given it the shaft.
--------------------
Anyhoo ... apologies for the wild tangent. Picard's corpse. What's the deal with that?
Silly
The Defiant(s) were designed and built feverishly as a defense against the Borg, hastily repurposed to give the DS9 staff some starship adventures, I mean as defense against the Dominion.
It makes sense that ship line would be retired quickly since they were basically prototypes.
Voyager would be venerated because of its extraordinary record of exploration/first contacts/etc.
Norvo
It makes sense for Voyager to be put out to pasture almost immediately so Starfleet's R&D department could pick apart the ship at their leisure. No way that Starfleet would risk losing that treasure trove of Delta quadrant (Borg) technologies and alternate future Federation weaponry and defenses.
Eamon
If the PIC showrunners had just focused on telling stories about a legendary crew decades after their adventures from the start we wouldn’t need a memberberry pie jammed into episode 6 of 10 in the final season.
I got whiplash at the forced nostalgia. Is this appealing to anyone? “ZOMG look the enterprise A!!!! QQ”.
Yes, this season is an improvement overall. But I’m still left with the conclusion that the people who run Star Trek feel nothing but disdain for Star Trek fans. Condescending nostalgia-trips like are so blindingly transparent.
PM
@Eamon the only people not rejocing from here to the Gamma Quadrant about this season are on this message board ( and even here, they're an impossible-to-please minority 😉 )
Eamon
@PM maybe so. But that doesnt make the criticism any less relevant.
Had they spent all of the show’s efforts over the 3 seasons on meaningful links to the past that serve to show how these characters have aged, grown and changed they could have made dozens of stories rooted in owning their past and making the nostalgia mean something. Of course, they didnt. So we’re left with 55 minutes of them waving old toys in our face because…. That’s what the people want? I guess?
I love old starships, i watch YouTube videos about the evolution of Trekkian design, etc. But in the SHOWS, I’d like for the use of past elements to service plot and themes. Otherwise, it’s just cynical nostalgia for the purpose of glossing over how paper-thin the Star Trek universe has become.
Jammer is right, 25 years ago Braga and Berman were roasted too. 17 year old me probably wasn’t as critical of some of those decisions (ahem…jeri Ryan) as I would be today and looking back, those criticisms were valid. Even still, I can’t imagine a current era Star Trek captain being written even close to the stoic diplomat Picard was or to a Janeway. Hell, I just rewatched the episode where Voyager first makes contact with the Federation and the first thing she does is transfer over all her logs. These days, they’d all sit around together and have a cry.
Star Trek knew what it wanted to be. These days, it doesnt. It tries to appeal to the masses (who are not watching) by lowering the tone and removing philosophy, diplomacy and exploration. It then tries to appeal to the old grumps like me by waving nostalgia in our faces.
I think they’re failing both audiences by not trying to be better - which feels, ironically, like the Trekkian thing they ought to do.
But with that said, I am enjoying the season and feel like this is what Picard could have been from season 1. And I did rewatch the ship-museum scene twice, because I love the ships. Two things can be true for me I guess. It can be entertaining while also feeling like its a bit cheap.
sony
If I hear "it made me feel seen . . " one more time . . . ~ S82
I'm still waiting for Jack, Sidney or even Seven to say "no cap".
Jax
Janeway's Labrat": "Let’s think about what Voyager went through in the delta quadrant. That ship, that poor poor ship. Wasn’t it completely time fractured at one point? Not to mention what Red did to it in Year of Hell(s). It’s been through multiple transwarp accidents, stuck in voids, harvested by life forms. "
Traditionally, a season of television has roughly corresponded to a year of time in-story. That's how you build a timeline...how you build a canon of events.
Then shows like 24 came along and changed all that.
Now a seven season run of Voyager could be declared to have all transpired over mere weeks.
sony
Loved this episode until it got into uncanny valley. The secret weapon that the Portal weapon distracted from is Picard's 96-year-old preserved corpse? Are they going to clone him again, like in Nemesis? Picard never should've died in the first place and it made no sense to give him a 96-year-old-appearing synth body. Why not a younger body? They could've had a young British actor (maybe his grandson?) play him with Patrick Stewart playing his consciousness. Oh well.
One of these days I'm going to edit seasons 1 and 2 in a way to make the story seem coherent enough to connect to season 3.
So far, I LOVE season 3 to the point where I almost cried a bunch of times.
I hope it doesn't fly off the rails.
Dom
I admit I'm enjoying this season more than I thought. It's easily the best season of nuTrek other than SNW so far. Yet, the writing still leaves so much to be desired. So much of the humor feels like forced "Marvel-style" quips that don't feel true to TNG Trek. And, to top it off, this season isn't exploring any interesting new ideas, social commentary, or sci-fi twists. I enjoy the nostalgia and the chance to say goodbye to these characters, but feel like I won't ever have a need to revisit this story.
Dom
This season is a big step down. Four episodes in and it seems so aimless. There are a bunch of weird decisions, like mashing large flashback scenes with serialized story arcs in one episode, without any thematic or plot thread connecting them. I just don't get how the same crew that brought us seasons 1 and 2 are now doing this.
Dom
please ignore the last comment. That was intended for the Mandalorian episode.
Gilligan’s Starship
@Dom Ironically, your comment could interchangeably be applied to any number of streaming series these days and still be true! 🖖😜
Silly
To me, the problem with NuTrek is the sjw preaching. It's like a leftist version of a Christian indoctrination film.
I don't watch Trek because I want a version of church, I like the intellectual exploration of ideas. Because despite my views... maybe there's something I don't know?
I'm gay and I don't mind Seven and Raffi's relationship and some pda. But do I want Trek to be a relationship oriented soap? No way, there's ample soap.
SNW's first episode... I actually liked it until they showed contemporary DC. Based on Pike's statements, I actually think the producers were trying to be a little fair to different sides. But I stopped watching because I ain't watching a show set 200+ years from now to see explicit contemporary issues.
Trek has long had metaphors and parables about current issues, but I don't recall before (and possibly including) Enterprise showing contemporary footage.
Silly
(Contemporary footage of political things like DC)
Chappity
Considering that this series largely appears to be a vehicle for retiring the TNG cast and sending them off with a resounding bang, and that just about every character in this series is under threat of immediate peril, it seems about time to offer some completely uninformed predictions just for fun, as to who will make it out of the last four episodes (that's all we have left, right?) alive.
Jean-Luc Picard: nope.
William and Deanna Riker: nope.
Data/Lore/B-4/Lal: uh...
Jack Crusher: nope (unless they plan to keep him around to carry the Picard banner, and do something about that Irumotic syndrome...)
The LaForge family: nope (but not without plenty of romantic tension between Jack and Sidney—gratuitous implied sex scene, or at least a corridor makeout scene expected before this season is over)
The entire crew of the Titan: nope (the whole ship will likely go out in a blaze of glory, along with its smug captain)
The Genetically-Modified Attack Tribble: ______ (your answer here)
Vadic (along with Meathand) and her Soulless Minions of Orthodoxy: need we ask?
Commander Seven: YES!!! (please—Jeri Ryan needed for a new series)
Bev Crusher: nah, sorry. Will probably go down with the sinking ship.
Worf: YES!!!... uh, on second thought, no... maybe today is a good day to die... but I loved the gray beard and the new meditative outlook on life...
Colonel Kira (still Commander of DS9?): hahahahaha... (will we see her make a cameo? She is certainly a Changeling specialist...)
Wesley Crusher: "help me Wesley Crusher, you're my only hope...."
Jonathon
So....if Section 31 has the remains of Kirk, Picard, and possibly Archer in cold storage what are the odds the got Khan's body on ice?
Silly
Zero if they're sticking with the nominal timeline.
Booming
@Silly
"To me, the problem with NuTrek is the sjw preaching. It's like a leftist version of a Christian indoctrination film."
What social justice issues do you mean? Gay rights are pretty much mainstream. While Gallup polls from 20 years ago show that between 40 and 50% of Americans thought that homosexual relationships like yours should be illegal, that number is now down to 18% (poll from 2021). Of course you can think that you got your marriage/adoption rights and discrimination protections and don't want to hear about social justice anymore but where is that featured in this season of Star Trek Picard???
Tim C
Decent episode, although I'll agree it's the weakest of the season thus far. Did enjoy getting to see the Enterprise-A onscreen again ♥️
It also seems that Doug Drexler's planned refit of the NX-class for the cancelled fifth season of ENT has now been canonised - there's one floating in the background at the museum!
I would really like to hear any sort of reasonable explanation for why Daystrom was ghoulishly exhuming and hanging on to the dead bodies of Starfleet legends. Surely Kirk's body wasn't just left under a pile of rocks to get gnawed by animals on Veridian?
Some commenters have wondered why Section 31 appears to be out in the open now. The answer seems simple to me - they overplayed their hand with the creation of the Changeling virus, and after it was the cure to that virus which ended the war, their benefactors within Starfleet stopped agreeing to cover up for them.
As Jammer noted, the master plot for the season certainly seems to be reaching peak insanity, and I still don't have faith in modern Trek to deliver an entirely satisfying serialised story. I keep saying this every season of PIC or Disco, but I would really, really like to be wrong this time.
Cynic
Many nits above... how about these? All Starfleet ships "talk to each other now" yet no one (Shaw, Riker, Seven, etc.) knows this and so our heroes are surprised when they are discovered near Daystrom? No one knows except the guy who runs the fleet museum and his junior officer daughter, that is.
Starship transponders can't be "cloned" and yet... isn't that what was happening every time Titan manufactured and dropped a decoy buoy with a copy of Titan's transponder?
And why would the other starships be fooled by the buoys at all (as in the first scene where three of them warp in within a hundred feet of one of them and each other, LOL). Being that the buoys don't "talk," wouldn't the ships know that "it's a faaaake"?
Theory: Changelings are going use Picard's stiff to weaponize Irumodic syndrome into a virus that will infect and disable the entire Federation! This would mirror what the Federation tried to do to them, something this episode helpfully reminded us of. They have to get Jack because he has the only other known case of Irumodic syndrome and could conceivably be used to find a cure.
Yanks
@MidshipmanNorris
"As batshit as this is getting, I will accept anything for Data waking up and saying "Geordi?" as his first words."
I choked up when he said that.
I forgot to mention that Spiner's performance here was outstanding. The seamless transition from Data to Lore To B4 was impressive.
Quincy
@Jonathon
Sat, Mar 25, 2023, 9:48pm (UTC -5)
"So....if Section 31 has the remains of Kirk, Picard, and possibly Archer in cold storage what are the odds the got Khan's body on ice?"
In the Prime timeline Khan's body would've been obliterated when the Genesis device exploded on his ship and created the Genesis planet. Unless they cloned it from prior DNA traces, went back in time, or traveled to an alternate reality to get it, it should be impossible for anyone to have that body.
SJU
What a waste of Moriarty.
At least Seven got to reminisce.
Picard’s body better have a lot of Borg tech for the Changelings to be so hot for it.
Still a lot more entertaining than season 1-2.
Bryan
I doubt there are any technological marvels hiding inside Picard's body. The Changelings are just huge Picard fans who drew inspiration from how he trolled Starfleet with the whole Locutus act yet still gets to live among them as a highly decorated admiral. Plus it helps that he mostly stayed out of the Dominion Wars.
So the Changelings couldn't help but make off with a morbid memento for themselves, the portal weapon theft being just a cover since they were understandably kinda embarrassed about it. They say you shouldn't shoot down ideas in a brainstorming exercise, but this one was so stupid it definitely should've never made it onto the drawing board. Now that they have him they totally regret it since a shrivelled nonagenarian corpse just doesn't spark joy like they'd thought. It's really just sad.
Tim M
This week's outing was not quite at the same level as the last couple of episodes, but I enjoyed it nonetheless for the nostalgia and character moments. Riker recalling his first encounter with Data (which also serves as counterpoint to the moment in Nemesis when he *couldn't* remember the song Data was whistling) and Seven reminiscing about Voyager were standout moments.
I'm looking forward to finding out what the Changelings want with Picard's body. Do they want to impersonate him for some as-yet-unrevealed nefarious purpose? We shall see.
Regarding Kirk's body, it also feels appropriate that Section 31 would have such objectionable items in its private little museum.
Silly
@Booming
Lol, I was rather toasted so I find my comments hard to parse as well.
I guess, the Seven/Raffi stuff is just boring. I didn't much care for the Paris/Torres scenes back in Voyager either. WRT that stuff, I'd rather they go with the Law and Order style, a tiny sprinkle here and there. It makes the people seem real without the show becoming a soap.
But Picard had literal ICE raids, detentions, etc. That's not even on the nose, that's explicitly current politics. And maybe I'm even buying into the narrative that this is leftist SJWs, when really it's enormous companies with a vested interest in trafficking extremely cheap labor.
EmpressHoshiSato
I actually enjoyed this episode a lot. Maybe it’s because we actually had the TNG cast on screen! Seeing the old ships was decent, and the Voyager moment was beautiful.
I would be very happy if Data was brought back. And it actually excited me to see him when they entered the mainframe.
I too worry that the number of episodes left is worrying given the story isn’t quite clear still. And whilst we (finally) saw Starfleet ships in action, for one they do not have the sleek look of the 24/25th century (eg compared to the Defiant or Voyager shown on screen), and the instant stop out of Warp just lacks the elegance of the TNG movies where the Enterprise gracefully enters space.
Furthermore, Vadic killing the two Starfleet officers before kidnapping Riker suggests they weren’t Changelings which makes no sense since Starfleet Security do not engage in or condone the physical torture of prisoners! Whilst I get that Starfleet might be compromised, how precisely will the conspirators cover up a security breach at the station which would surely automatically alert many people beyond just one or two ships.
Wish we had the Enterprise E and I hope Data does come back in full (with his aging effect).
Chappity
@Cynic:
Your theory about the plot to weaponize Irumotic syndrome sounds extremely plausible... nice call.
Chris
@Cynic: Yes, the changelings want to weaponize the syndrome was what I thought as well. They first stole Picard‘s body but realized they need an early stage or whatever of it, hence the hunt for Picard’s offspring. Why else would the syndrome be such a dominating topic?
Tim M
@Chappity @Cynic That theory makes a lot of sense to me too. Interesting call.
Booming
@Silly
Thanks for explaining. :)
I was mostly confused by your comment. Star Trek always had relationships, especially DS9 had several entire episodes about relationships.
"But Picard had literal ICE raids, detentions, etc. ... when really it's enormous companies with a vested interest in trafficking extremely cheap labor."
Even the fact that season 2 was mostly happening in the now was probably done to save costs. While the ICE stuff was very explicit, that is really more a liberal topic than a leftist one. As you point out when it comes to immigration humanist and economic interests align, so yeah maybe that was why they featured it so prominent. Or maybe the showrunners and stars just have a lot of Latino staff??
Bryan
I suppose the Irumotic bomb is plausible, at least by Nu-Trek standards of plausibility. I'd still prefer if my own Big Dumb Prediction came true over that one though for reasons of why it's even dumber, which aren't worth explaining unless it actually happens. I still wanna encourage people to keep the predictions coming cuz Terry Matalas deserves a fucking Fields Medal if he's able to resolve that plot thread in a way that isn't batshit crazy or just plain stupid, and whoever anticipates it deserves a share of the glory.
Silly
@Booming
Yeah, I don't even know. Voyage Home had the whales thing, but that wasn't a hugely contentious issue in the US at least. They could have covered crack cocaine sentencing disparities, Reagan's military build up etc, but didn't. Voyager had a present day (90s) tale without going into contemporary issues except perhaps a very light critique of the dot com situation.
DS9 did do a time travel with a critique of homelessness and how we deal with mental illness. And while it was on the nose and more than a little prescient, it was set decades later at the time.
It really just boils down to a story about current issues needs to be couched in sci-fi terms if you want to encourage thought and discussion. If it's set now then it's CNN or Fox or Breitbart or whatever.
Regarding relationships... DS9 went right off the rails with that. The Sisko family stuff wasn't too excessive, but Worf was the whingiest whinger to ever whinge about his lame love life. Sheesh.
Silly
Also, consider that these are ten episode seasons, so proportionately, the soap level has been very high in NuTrek.
wolfstar
"I still wanna encourage people to keep the predictions coming cuz Terry Matalas deserves a fucking Fields Medal if he's able to resolve that plot thread in a way that isn't batshit crazy or just plain stupid, and whoever anticipates it deserves a share of the glory."
Okay... the talking head remotely directing the changelings is Armus (who still can't leave Vagra II), and he wants Picard's body so he can sexually violate it...
Booming
@Silly
You forgot Kira, who had three? long term relationships with multiple episodes dedicated to them and I'm not even counting Perv Mirror Kira. Then there is Miles and Keiko. Julian and Miles. Leeta and Rom. Quark and the Holosuite. There was a lot of lovin on DS9.
Personally, I found the whole Picard Romulan lady story far more messed up. So Laris is married to that Romulan fellow, who dies off screen. Picard at the end of season 1 is reborn as robot Picard. That Picard then starts to hit it off with Laris but not really, then travels to the past to have some strange love relation with watcher Laris who then dies, after which he goes back to Laris to start a long term relationship. Only to leave her behind again at the start of season 3?! You can do better Laris!
"It really just boils down to a story about current issues needs to be couched in sci-fi terms if you want to encourage thought and discussion"
Star Trek always talked about social justice topics but they normally did it as allegory. Even when it did stuff like the time Admiral Layton wanted to essentially create a military dictatorship, they at least gave him reasons and motives one could understand. Season 2 was really just saying ICE is evil, we don't like it.
You can portray something as wrong but still give it nuance. ICE in itself is really just a tool to implement policies. One could also call them a symptom and I guess that is what they were going for but then you have to go into the policies and the reasons why parts of the electorate want them. The problem is that NuTrek is simplistic in it's portrayal of symptoms and really bad at that the portrayal of causes.
Sigh2000
@Silly
"And maybe I'm even buying into the narrative that this is leftist SJWs, when really it's enormous companies with a vested interest in trafficking extremely cheap labor."
Respectfully asking if a word is missing here?
Yanks
As I can't think of any other reason why they would take Picard's dead corpse I'll submit they took it so they can manufacture a Rumodic Syndrome virus to rid the galaxy of humans. (much like the section 31 constructed virus in DS9)
But that doesn't make much sense, because it only has the possibility of removing humans, not all solids.
Narissa's Bath Water
Those of you bored enough to follow the twists and turns of Youtube propaganda will see some cracks forming in the influencers that Paramount bought off, as well as their fans.
You see, a new distinction has been.... clarified. According to commentator and premiere Paramount sellout Dave Cullen, "fan service" is not at all the same concept as "memberberry". Both refer to producer actions taken solely to pique fan interest or memory, but there is a key distinction that Cullen leaves out. "Fan service" is an action taken by a company that gives Cullen access to the show early, and is a GOOD thing. "Memberberries" are actions taken by selfish and ill-mannered producers who don't give Dave Cullen early access to the show. Simple! Fan service good, memberberry bad.
Finding the smartest among this detestable influencer lot isn't an easy task, but as far as Paramount service sessions go, the award might go to Critical Drinker. Never a fan of his one-note cultural nonsense, he seems to have assessed the quality of Picard S3 and crazed zealotry of other "early access" influencers, and said no thanks. Aside from one video on S3 not being that bad, he's been completely silent. Sitting in for one servicing panel with Terry Matalas was all the hint he needed.
The worst offenders are still Robert Meyer Burnett and the Popcast brothers. Not content with praising Picard S3, they itemize complaints against it, and argue why you aren't a rational thinking human if you don't like the show as much as they do.
If you enjoy listening to shrill, over the top nitpicking about Picard S3, the channels "Mollie and the Old Man" and "BirdOPrey5" are pretty funny as background noise. Though BOP5 strangely called E6 the best yet, after eviscerating everything before it, likely due to the presence of the Bounty in the shipyard.
Quincy
Irumodic syndrom is a genetic disorder. Weaponizing it would be like the Russians trying to weaponize Huntington's disease. It's not even going to kill you anytime soon so it's a weak weapon.
People will say if they can weaponize it then they can speed it up. The question becomes there were already diseases that are extremely deadly in the Star Trek universe. Why start with a slow uncommon barely lethal hereditary disease when you can grab something already lethal and contagious, gain a function that thing into unstoppable virulence, and weaponize the result?
It makes no sense. Given their penchant for memberberries this season I'd expect them to bring back those active antibodies that almost killed Polaski rather than try and turn a disease passed down through genetics into something that can infect someone.
I saw another theory on Reddit. Call it the Crusher's Children Theory. Beverly already had Wesley who's a Traveler. Therefore the potential for becoming a Traveler is in her bloodline. What does that have to do with Picard? Glad you asked.
What if Irumodic Syndrome isn't a disease at all, but a marker for genetic potential. A mutation that signals the possibility of an evolutionary jump. Remember in "All Good Things" Q blaming Picard for almost wiping out humanity when in fact if Q had left him alone in the first place he wouldn't have had the opportunity to be in three different time periods to cause anything of the sort.
Or would he...
What if it's Picard that has the potential in his bloodline? What if the reason that Q was always messing with Picard and referring to his "potential" is because Picard was on the verge of an evolutionary jump to becoming a traveler? What if it wasn't Q forcing Picard into three different time periods, but Picard traveling there under his own power?
Now this seems unlikely that two people with such potential would just happen to end up together unless the condition were much more common than has been indicated. This of course brings into question Wesley's parentage. Was he really sired by Beverly's dead husband? Or does Picard have two sons?
This is as terrible an idea as weaponized Irumodic Syndrome, but unfortunately it makes more sense. If the Changelings are trying to figure out how to become Travelers then you have an existential threat to the entire galaxy on your hands. Changeling Travelers are lethal. They can go anywhere in any time period and become anyone. You can't stop them. They can wipe out your entire civilization and you'd never know they were there. They make the Krenim look like amateur aholes in the time screwing business.
Before STP chose to continue Star Trek's abysmal record of representing father's rights, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But after watching Beverly Crusher, a character I held in high regard, pull the exact same crap that Carol Marcus pulled on Kirk, I really can't rule out that they might dial her selfishness up to 11 and make Jack the second child she's withheld from Picard.
So why hasn't Wesley Crusher shown up to shepherd his brother through the awakening process the way the Traveler did for him? Who knows? Maybe I'm waaaaay off base or maybe they're saving that for later. But as I see it, Jack's "overclocked" brain allowing him to kill 4 Changelings effortlessly being explained as a function of a latent Traveler ability to play with time seems to line up perfectly.
I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't see many options. I'm not buying the weaponized Irumodic Syndrome theory. Borg nano probes would've been far easier to get from Seven. Residual energy from the Nexus doesn't work either. Why take Picard and not Kirk, who should be far more saturated with it? I hope I'm wrong, but there's just nothing else on the horizon. In any case, I don't have high hopes for the closeout, so, either way, at least I won't be disappointed.
Bucktown
@Booming,
"Or maybe the showrunners and stars just have a lot of Latino staff??"
I'm pretty sure there wasn't a single Latino on staff during season 2, or I guarantee they would have protested the ICE plot as insensitively ludicrous. (It reeks of white savior writing.)
Booming
@Bucktown
I meant like housekeeping and gardeners. That kind of staff. Through that they get a taste of the harrowing tales of the plebs latina. That then leads to the ICE plot and aspiring aristocrat Wil Wheaton blabbering on about ICE being a Gestapo like organization. Ouch.
Booming
PS: It's also probably a Trump effect. Trump literally called Latino immigrants and refugees rapists and whatnot.
Sigh2000
@Booming
The ICE plot...
Episodes relating to the ICE plot premiered in March 2022. While I am unsure about what the writing schedule may have been, terrible images of Border Patrol agents using whips to 'control people' were widely seen and posted on Youtube in September of 2021. It might have influenced the content of the Picard series.
Jason R.
"PS: It's also probably a Trump effect. Trump literally called Latino immigrants and refugees rapists and whatnot."
He also literally called them "good people", though in retrospect maybe he was saying rapists can be good people. You can never be sure with Trump.
Booming
@Sigh2000
Sure, that certainly went in there, too. For the record, I'm not saying that ICE is not an organization with numerous problems but they are not comically evil or the Gestapo. It would be like saying that the US Internment-camps for Japanese were like Nazi concentration camps. Doesn't mean that the internment camps were not an awful and shameful thing but still a long, long way from Auschwitz.
@Jason
He said "Some, I assume, are good people." So he kept a door open to all Latino immigrants being evil. :)
"You can never be sure with Trump."
I must admit I quite enjoy the whole "January 6" was just a peaceful stroll in the capitol gaslighting. Do they not know that the entire planet saw it live on TV?? :D
Sigh2000
@Booming
Agreed. Thanks for your post.
MidshipmanNorris
Weaponizing Irrumodic Syndrome sounds boring.
Creating a 2nd Locutus of Borg would be a lot more whizz! BANG! Pow! "Exciting," and it's in line with the sensationalism of modern Trek
Bryan
I'm just wondering if undead geriatric Locutus would inspire fear or laughs. And if people are thinking more along the lines of transplanting the Locutusisms into someone more hip and young, I really don't know that there was physically anything special or different about Locutus compared to any borg drone. It was just Picard's knowledge, intellect, and the simple but rather arbitrary matter of the Collective deciding to grant him command status for a few hours while respecting his individuality that made him unique.
dave
It seems rather odd to me that the changelings seem to just want to seek revenge on the Federation. They , after all, were defeated and sent packing by not only the Feds, but the Klingons, Romulans, and most of the Cardassian military and civilian population. Wouldn't it be more realistic writing to have them wanting revenge on everyone? The Feds were going to lose the war or sue for some sort of peace treaty if they didn't get the Romulans into the war. So, making them the only one needing to seek revenge on seems, well, a bit shallow on the writers front.
Yanks
"PS: It's also probably a Trump effect. Trump literally called Latino immigrants and refugees rapists and whatnot."
He literally said lots of criminals were coming across the border unchecked and unimpeded. He was right. How this gets translated to all Latino immigrants and refugees being rapists is how we get sleepy Joe.
Narissa's Bath Water
As Picard S3 moved past its mid-season point, I noticed some of the social media influencers doubling and tripling down on their praise of Terry Matalas personally, while moving away from commentary about the Picard show itself. Suddenly, we are treated to endless speeches about the genius of Terry, the new age of "Terry Trek" (a logo quickly put on hats and shirts, for goodness sake!), and even online petition efforts to gain him a future show. Sounds a lot like Terry and a few buddies ginning up hype all by themselves.
And Paramount? They have been, as Dave Chapelle might say, "oddly quiet".
Narissa's Bath Water
Shane on The Popcast, said with a straight face:
"There's a lot of talented people in the world, that can do a variety of different things, but it seems like Terry Matalas has a really special talent to be a conductor of an orchestra. He has the ability to find the strengths of his writers and what they do and he attacks a show, er, each episode with a team type of effort, with the music and all these other elements to create this really great cohesive show.
He's the brain at the center of it. You know, the greatest leaders we've ever had, the great presidents, they always have someone there to tell them what's wrong. You don't want a bunch of people in the room that are going to blow smoke up your ass. Even the greatest leaders, not all of their ideas are always the best. And sometimes you need to hear that other side of it, and that's what Terry does in his room."
Terry Matalas. Presidents. Great leaders.
QED.
Bryan
@Narissa's Bath Water
Maybe the subtext there is not that Terry Matalas is the greatest thing since sliced bread, just that Alex Kurtzman isn't any of those things. Terry and his lackeys are waging a war for the very soul of Star Trek, the outcome of which will determine who gets to control the narrative into the foreseeable future: a giant douche or a homestyle turd sandwich.
Booming
@Yanks
" How this gets translated to all Latino immigrants and refugees being rapists is how we get sleepy Joe. "
They always ask Europeans which candidate they would prefer. In 2020 for German voters it was 89% for Biden 4% for Trump. (For Hillary Clinton it was 90% to 4% for Trump). Republicans would never get elected in Europe. Well, maybe in Hungary.
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1168071/umfrage/trump-vs-biden-us-wahl-in-deutschland/
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/546187/umfrage/trump-vs-clinton-umfrage-in-deutschland-zur-us-praesidentschaftswahl/
The Republicans are seen as right wing extremists. Our conservatives would be centrists in the USA.
That were Trump's exact words.
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. ... .They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists, and some, I assume are good people, ... . And it only makes common sense. They're sending us not the right people. It's coming from more than Mexico. It's coming from all over South and Latin America, and it's coming probably, probably from the Middle East,"
He obviously talked about Latino Immigrants and refugees. With a little Islamic cherry on top.
But my point was really more about what motivated the writers for season 2.
Rahul
@Yanks --
"How this gets translated to all Latino immigrants and refugees being rapists is how we get sleepy Joe."
We got Sleepy Joe in part thanks to his Democrat buddies conspiring with big tech / social media to censor conservative voices. If that's not undemocratic, I don't know what is. So they could easily distort what Trump was rightly doing in tightening up border security.
Was fascinating to watch Matt Taibbi go through the "Twitter files" once Musk took over...
Sid
Yeah, the online Trek community is pushing HARD for Terry, and it is so easy to see the game they're all playing against Kurtzman and the reigning senior guard of NuTrek. Ok we get it guys, Kurtzman sucks. SZN 3 foreva!! Spread that hype! Someone on Twitter said it best last week--- There's now a "reverse" toxic thing happening in the fandom relative to this show, lol!
Terry and his team deserve a lot of credit for sure, especially compared to what has come before. But I'm sorry, I don't think this team's work stacks up to what came out of Piller's best years, or Behr's writers room. This is not Star Trek 6 from Meyer and Nimoy that they name-dropped in the previews-- unless the final act of this season really blows us all away (or just narrow-minded, impossibly-hard-to-please me???).
I'd rather see Paramount invest in a different production company altogether, but I know that ain't happening.
I'm liking it, but not loving it. And I want to love this Star Trek shit again, I really do, lol.
Roger Ailes
I'll never get how conservatives can even enjoy Star Trek.
Jax
Well this went on some tangents...
Bucktown
@Jax,
"Well this went on some tangents..."
Nothing that hasn't happened before around here!
@Rahul,
"We got Sleepy Joe in part thanks to his Democrat buddies conspiring with big tech / social media to censor conservative voices."
Not this disinformation nonsense. It has been thoroughly debunked:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b6df958f8370af3217d4178/t/6011e68dec2c7013d3caf3cb/1611785871154/NYU+False+Accusation+report_FINAL.pdf
Logic and reason are your friend. Please embrace the Vulcan (and let go of the Fox News).
Booming
I just wanted to point out that in Germany nobody would vote for republicans, even really conservative people. An ICE plot wouldn't make sense for Europeans and it is not like we don't have numerous problems with immigration. Germany's conservative party is for abortion rights, universal healthcare, free higher education, a guaranteed living space, social security and strict gun control. And when more than a million Syrian refugees knocked at our borders, the conservative government let them in. So I guess they would be socialists in the US. :)
The 2012 poll for Germany
Obama vs Romney: 92% to 4%
Sorry for the tangent but I'm always amazed how little awareness US people have about how extremely tilted to the right their political system is compared to the rest of the Western world.
I also think that the fact that season 3 is so popular is because they mostly stay away from any kind of social justice, even controversial depictions. White guys fill all the command roles and the baddie is a white woman. Phew, crisis averted. :) I really wasn't keen on having another Hollywood hates white guys discussion.
And the old band is playing all the hits. I really wonder when Denise Crosby will show up? If she is the big villain then they really bringing her in late.
Bucktown
@Booming,
I think most of Europe's nations are tempered by parliamentary systems that allow for coalition governments made up of multiple parties across the spectrum. It allows for more moderate debate and cooperative problem solving, and puts less focus on the individual politicians. There is robust enough stratification of factions to prevent an autocratic majority, and there's no strict adherence to a 230 year old document that was helping to solve the problems of their time without the magical foresight of how to solve today's problems. (Lucky you.)
The US has found itself stuck in a 2-party zero sum system, which will then trend to polarize around extremes over enough time, which is exponentially accelerating due to gerrymandering and ultra-right-wing media conglomerates that systematically manipulate a conservative, traditionally minded electorate to achieve their self-serving goals of raising stock value and protecting the interests of the donor class (see Dominion Voting Systems v. Fox News Network).
In addition, progress can only be achieved at any given time when 1 of the parties gets a trifecta of all 3 branches of government (including 2 chambers of 1 branch), and only then if 1 of the chambers (the Senate) holds a 60% supermajority. This is exceedingly difficult to achieve, and my recollection is it only has lasted for 2 years in the span of at least a generation of time, which is when "Obamacare" passed. We also currently have an exceedingly small national representation as the population grows, with one representative for every 747,184 people. The Bundestag, on the other hand, has one for every 112,772 people.
As to season 3, I think it's a bit cynical to portray its successes as due to "white guys fill all the command roles and the baddie is a white woman." Regardless of politics, season 3 (thus far) is telling a competent, internally logical story that has reverence and respect for its historic characters. I think that alone is why it has been refreshing to watch and getting praise.
Booming
@Bucktown
Not to turn this into a political philosophy seminar but at the center of all problems is always the economic question. All you say is true but in the end this doesn't really matter. States remain stable as long as they expand. In earlier times this was done through conquest. In essence these states were acquiring wealth. The upper class in a monetary based society will always get the lion share of wealth creation, meaning that they become more and more powerful. While the USA stopped expanding physically in the early decades of the 20th century, it could still expand it's markets for a few decades for various reasons. During the last few decades this has becomes harder and harder because competitors caught up. So the rich are now sucking the bone marrow out of the US substance. In the end it is just the transfer of wealth from the broader society to the upper class. Worsened by the fact that recent innovation has cost more jobs then they created. A trend that will probably worsen considerably over the next two decades. What happens now in the US has happened hundreds if not thousands of times already.
Here look at this
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/screen-shot-2020-01-08-at-5-06-47-pm/
and this
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/US-Gini-coefficient-1967-to-2017-Source-US-Bureau-of-the-Census_fig1_332584749
All that other stuff is just window dressing. In the end it all comes down to these two graphs.
Damn, this is at the same time far too long and still way too short. I'm stopping now. Here an ok but repetitive book about the issue.
Why Nations Fail
The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty
"I think it's a bit cynical to portray its successes as due to "white guys fill all the command roles and the baddie is a white woman.""
I didn't mean it like that, just that it satisfied a certain part of the audience. The reason that this season is so well received, as you point out, has many reasons.
Narissa's Bath Water
@Bryan
You may be right, I was just emphasizing the fact that the "Terry Matalas is the bee's knees" is being pushed by a very tiny group of 3-4 dudes who are likely friends of Terry, and not as I previously thought, a larger effort on Paramount's part. I'm guessing Shane and Brian of the Popcast are in that group, as is Robert Burnett. Interesting re: Matalas and Kurtzman, I believe anything branded Terry Matalas is still under Kurtzman's studio aegis, so Picard S3's has probably been a factor in gaining Kurtzman another contract. His mood has certainly brightened in the last few days.
The next few weeks will be important in the assessment of ratings. Many of the Terry shills pointed to episodes 5 and 6 as the season peak, and the daily ratings at fantrax and google support this. People saying ep 5/6 was the peak after they've seen all 10 also suggests that there aren't any late-season shock twists or surprises that send it out with a bang.
It shall be interesting.
Narissa's Bath Water
@Roger Ailes
Perhaps they believe that the enjoyment of a show is independent of whether the show's political message aligns with their own. You know, tolerance and all that.
Rahul
@Bucktown
Do yourself a favor and at least consider what has happened in 2022 *after* that outdated stuff from NYU. Why don't you go through https://twitter.com/mtaibbi
and get caught up with what has been going down for the last several months. I did refer to stuff that was uncovered from 2022 in my response to "Yanks" and yet you post something from 2021 to try to prove something??
Keeping up to date and being willing to adapt to new information are your friends. Please embrace an open mind. (And let go of CNN/NBC/CBS/Washington Post etc.)
Roger Ailes
@Narissa's Bath Water
I'd be more ready to accept that answer for almost any show that happened to have liberal leanings from time to time. But not for Star Trek, which is pretty much the antithesis of the conservative position to its very core. It's about a step away from an Atheist being a regular viewer and commenter on, say, the Joel Osteen show.
Nick
@Roger Ailes,
In Star Trek, the replicator and other technology eliminated scarcity making capitalism obsolete. So free food, housing, healthcare, education, material goods, etc. are all possible because there is unlimited supply. I think many conservatives would support these things in this scenario. I've never heard a conservative say they don't want someone to receive free healthcare, only that they don't want to be the one paying for it. In Star Trek, the burden on socieity for providing these things is de-minimus.
Roger Ailes
@Nick
Bad faith. Conservatism is not about fiscal issues, it's about unjustified grievance, being a victim, and being resentful and greedy more generally. Tucker Carlson is the most popular host of the most popular conservative TV outlet and his platform is "I am an entitled trust fund bigot".
Going by numbers alone, this verifiably large segment of the conservative wing simply disagrees with everything Star Trek stands for: Inclusion, tolerance of other cultures, social safety net/non wealth based society (Kirk era has no money AND no replicators, so there goes that argument), exploration fleet as opposed to a military, one world government, doesn't deny climate change, rarely mentions god and often implies the society is largely non religious (besides TOS), etc etc etc.
Need I go on?
Jax
DS9 made clear that Starfleet is the Federation military (and if "Siege of AR-558" is to be believed, the *only* branch of it), because we sure didn't see any other entity fighting wars.
Frankly, this was established as early as TNG's "Redemption".
Roger Ailes
Yes, but it their primary purpose? Not even close. Was my point. Of course they aren't defenseless, but starfleet is founded on and continues to be an organization of exploration. The NX01 wasn't commissioned to protect Earth.
Nick
@Roger Ailes - You say "bad faith", then proceed to say that conservatism is nothing more than unjustified grievance, victimhood, and being resentful and greedy? Ironically, this is the exact same thing the right says about the left! Your view of conservatives is a caricature, but at least now I understand why you wrongly think conservatives can't enjoy Star Trek.
Roger Ailes
It is bad faith. There is no way to spin it where Star Trek is anything but a progressive fantasy. And not just in the background, it is the point of the show.
Jax
"Of course they aren't defenseless, but starfleet is founded on and continues to be an organization of exploration."
Not really.
Dialogue has shown that only certain types of vessels embark on exploration. Other types have different missions. The Defiant certainly wasn't designed for exploration.
There was a TNG episode where a fellow captain was talking to Picard over subspace and he said he envied Picard because that other captain's mission was ferrying back and forth between planets...basically patrol duty.
Hard to imagine Worf enlisting in a Federation exploratory fleet if there was a distinct military one.
Booming
@Jax
No, it was even said in the episode in which they got the Defiant.
From Memory Alpha:" The Defiant-class starship was a heavily armed, limited-role vessel: the first true "warship" Starfleet had ever designed." "Ultimately, these design flaws, combined with the Borg threat becoming less urgent, led Starfleet to the decision to abandon the project and place the prototype in storage."
The Defiant is literally the only warship Starfleet ever built.
Roger Ailes
@jax
Yes really. Stop trolling.
Rahul
"Star Trek, which is pretty much the antithesis of the conservative position to its very core."
At a minimum this statement is inaccurate -- but I also sense the intent to troll or vilify conservatives and certainly display an extremely poor understanding of them later on in the thread. But leaving that aside, and trying to add much-needed precision, I think the only Trek where the above has any validity is DSC. Even with PIC because of how S3 is unfolding thus far I think anybody can enjoy it. It has not shown any signs of virtue-signalling like it did in S2. But with classic Trek, I'm sure a decent percentage of Trek fans are conservatives, though I'd expect the majority not to be. So Trek as a franchise has very broad appeal and I'm quite sure its fans come from all political stripes, shapes and sizes. I don't think the franchise would be going for as long as it has if it didn't.
Jason R.
"It is bad faith. There is no way to spin it where Star Trek is anything but a progressive fantasy. And not just in the background, it is the point of the show."
A liberal fantasy actually. Progressives in 2023 aren't liberal; quite the opposite
Peter G.
I don't agree that classic Trek was a liberal fantasy, nor that it was oppositional to any particular contemporary viewpoint. I think there are ideals that go far beyond left vs right as they currently exist, and Trek IMO touched on those. Maybe they are hard to define if we are stuck in a right vs left mindset, but something about Trek's worldview felt right.
MidshipmanNorris
Rahul said:
"Do yourself a favor"
And I did. I stopped reading the comment.
Don't presume you know everything from the outset of your speech. Good way to let me know to ignore everything you say in the future. "Perspicacity incarnate..." 😏
Booming
@Peter
"but something about Trek's worldview felt right."
Well, to me Trek's worldview always felt left. ;)
@Jason
"A liberal fantasy actually. Progressives in 2023 aren't liberal;"
Ok, so you are throwing words together. There is the political ideology classical liberalism and it's numerous subdivisions. Star Trek has only a few points in common with classical liberalism, especially when it comes to personal rights. Economically and in regards to state power the Federation has very little in common with classical liberalism. I would say that it best aligns with liberal socialism. Lots of personal rights, strong state, very limited economical rights.
And about the second part, I guess here you mean the popular understanding like progressives (meaning differs from country to country) do not value certain forms of freedom which is obviously true. For example banning discrimination of black people in business is anti liberal. Taxing the rich to keep society from imploding is anti liberal. The state providing universal healthcare. Also anti liberal. No doubt about it. :)
Bucktown
To all the political comments - I'm currently going through a rewatch of TOS, and I have to say, it's not quite as politically progressive as I remember, especially season 2. (Let's also put aside the rampant misogyny in like a quarter of the episodes for now.) I know I'm likely not the first one to pick up on it, but there's a heavy imperialist theme. The Federation (and the Enterprise by extension) is constantly making moral compromises for expansionist goals in competition with the Klingon Empire. Why? It's not really discussed.
And I understand a lot of the Roddenberry penned work was more allegory of US-Soviet relations than true sci-fi world building, but it ends up feeling like Starfleet are forcible colonizers more than explorers, wreaking more havoc than good.
On the flipside, there's absolutely no doubt that Star Trek in all forms and iterations preaches tolerance and acceptance of all cultures, races, identities, etc. Not only does it demand tolerance, but its defining ethos is that humanity (and the galaxy) actually work better with diversity than without it. I think this is the key aspect many on the progressive side of the political spectrum don't understand how Republicans, especially the ones with social and cultural conservative leanings (anti-LGBTQ, anti-immigrant, anti-equity, etc.) can connect with the show when that's such a monumental aspect of it.
And to Rahul, this Twitter grievance is so minor to not be worth discussing. So they had meetings and internal arguments to discuss what to do with a high profile person violating their terms of service. Who cares? In fact, it almost proves the opposite. If a random schmuck was saying the spew Trump was getting away with, they'd be banned long before he was. To suggest there's a conspiracy with Democrat politicians is totally absurd, lacks all evidence, and makes you look like a simp for Fox News propaganda, who have finally been exposed in court that they intentionally lie to their audience to preserve their stock value.
Silly
I assume Star Trek's very core includes TOS, and I remember a fair amount of situations and dialog that I believe would be considered conservative.
"A Private Little War" has Kirk blatantly advocating extremely thinly veiled American involvement in Vietnam.
There's also the hilariously unfortunate final live action line from Trek for ten years, also from Kirk: "Her life could have been as rich as any woman's, if only. If only."
Bucktown
@Silly,
Yes, A Private Little War is definitely the most egregious example. But many others also apply - Devil in the Dark, Errand of Mercy, Friday's Child, The Apple, The Omega Glory, A Piece of the Action.
At least Devil in the Dark and Errand of Mercy understand the Federation are in the wrong, which is why A Private Little War sticks out because of its ugly insistence they're in the right by arming their chosen faction.
Silly
@Bucktown
"A Private Little War" did feature Bones bitterly arguing against Kirk.
That's when classic Trek worked best, from TOS through Voyager. Some people, even conservatives, find it interesting to expose themselves to other ideas and concepts.
Jason R.
"And about the second part, I guess here you mean the popular understanding like progressives (meaning differs from country to country) do not value certain forms of freedom which is obviously true. For example banning discrimination of black people in business is anti liberal. Taxing the rich to keep society from imploding is anti liberal. The state providing universal healthcare. Also anti liberal. No doubt about it. :)"
Cute.
What's funny is that you're "far right" and don't even know it yet. I went from being liberal to "right" I'd say circa 2000, although my politics and beliefs never changed much. My sister crossed over around 2015 and for my friends it's been a gradual process.
For you maybe it will take a few more years before your politics identify you as a "literal Nazi".
Booming
@Jason
"What's funny is that you're "far right" and don't even know it yet."
In what way am I far right? In what context??
"For you maybe it will take a few more years before your politics identify you as a "literal Nazi"."
Are you calling me a Nazi? And what is a literal Nazi? Are there fake Nazis?
I'm confused. Are you saying that I'm far right right now and that you have changed from liberal to more and more right wing. Meaning that you are becoming more like me over time??? Will we both end up as Nazis??? What???
DexterMorgan
"This material is okay, but nothing spectacular."
Yes, other than the nostalgia of the characters this one line encapsulates this entire season.
@Jax "The stupid kicks in within seconds in this episode as we opened with the stupid nuTrek "stop on a dime" exit from warp drive."
That JJTrek for you. Warp around the galaxy in seconds like it aint no thing. Doesnt anybody warp into a system and assume standard orbit anymore? Would a fleet of ships see the Titan warping in and then cloaking?
The dialogue gives me a headache. Real people dont talk like this.
DexterMorgan
"And just what was stolen from Daystrom? Turns out it was Picard's old body (the one that died at the end of season one before his mind was transferred to a synthetic golem). Why? You got me."
They are going to imitate Picard and frame him for some shit on Frontier Day so everyone can be even more mad at him, and then he will save the day and everyone will be happy until the next time they are mad at him.
I just cant believe people like Robert Meyer Burnett and the duo at RLM like this.
Roger Ailes
@Silly
Bad faith again. Even TOS is hyper left. The male up of the bridge crew alone in the 1960s makes any argument otherwise pure trolling.
Bryan
Think it's time to give it a rest, guys. Not enough people know how to dispassionately discuss what it means for something to align or clash with a political ideology in these mistrustful and polarized times. Also, people can misunderstand or not fully appreciate something without necessarily being "bad faith" but if the opposition doesn't enlighten them due to the suspicion that they'd just be providing more ammunition, it's never gonna rise above exchanging accusations of bad faith.
Yanks
@DexterMorgan
"I just cant believe people like Robert Meyer Burnett and the duo at RLM like this."
As of yet, I don't have any reason to not like this. It will all depend on how this all wraps up.
Jax
We're due to hear from RLM again this week on this matter.
We'll see where they've landed after 5-6-7.
Roger Ailes
RLM has never been a good judge of the quality of movies and tv. They are funny guys, but they have always had terrible opinions.
Bryan
I don't watch a ton of RLM but I found they're not merely funny in a random disconnected way, but much of their humor is connected to their criticism which tends to come from a knowledgeable and well-founded place. They also seem to be particularly good at interrogating fan's uncritical love for things.
Jax
Your assessment of RLM's opinions is itself an opinion.
Silly
@Roger Ailes
"Bad faith" is supposed to be an argument?
I posted a specific example of an entire episode that doesn't resemble anything progressive I've ever heard of.
The bridge crew means the show was hyper left? So if the Republicans have a handful of minority candidates, that means they're a hyper left progressive party?
DexterMorgan
@yanks
The bad plot, constant darkness, cheap sets, and horrible dialogue do it for you? I think the nostalgia between the characters has been nice in parts, but this show is a mess.
DexterMorgan
@Jax
"We're due to hear from RLM again this week on this matter.
We'll see where they've landed after 5-6-7."
I suspect they just finished watching episode 4 when they recorded the last episode so they were quite positive on it due to those being fairly good episodes. Episodes 6 and 7 were really shit, im going to be interested in their opinion on it.
Bucktown
The RLM guys are great, and I've been a fan since the TNG Mr. Plinkett review days. (I recall Mike might have even posted a comment here once?) They're usually very insightful and have the best editing gags in the game. Best of the Worst is also probably the best show on youtube. Also appreciated is they usually give the benefit of the doubt in their reviews and only harsh when it is absolutely called for. I'm honestly surprised nobody in Trek has offered them a job, given their knowledge and supreme editing skills, but maybe they make enough cash, are content with their own thing, and have 0% interest in leaving Wisconsin.
Roger Ailes
Honestly RLM are bad critics, they are just entertaining. Then again, most critics are bad critics so the bar is very low.
They are certainly bad filmmakers, at any rate. They claim that "bad on purpose" movies suck, yet that is all they can make.
Cliffhanger
We hope to see more of Commodore Geordi.
Silly
I watched RLM's review. They were funny.
They had a good point. The brightly lit sets of TNG were primarily due to the realities of mass producing a weekly show in that era.
TOS was the same. But the TOS movies had much more sophisticated lighting.
The dim lighting is definitely a bit annoying. Of any of these vessels, I would want to work on the D, hands down.
Orwell84
Booming may need to look at the direction Italy, France, and even Sweden and Finland are taking these days in regards to "no one would vote for a Republican in Europe" lmao.
And citing opinion polls is quite laughable, given how hilariously wrong they were about Trump becoming president over Killary. Reading about on here, Booming, you must be living on a different planet to the rest of us.
Dan
Quincy wrote: "I really don't understand why people annoyed, appalled, disgusted, or otherwise just sick and tired of negative comments don't take their own advice and scroll on by those comments."
You don't always know a comment is going to be nitpicky/negative until you, you know, read it. You learn to gloss over certain poster names after they repeatedly do the same thing, but that still takes a couple of reads.
"I sometimes failed, but that's my fault. I'll just try harder next time."
So you've not mastered the solution you're admonishing others to use. /shock
Booming
@Orwell84
I'm well aware of these elections.
The Italian, French and Swedish examples you mention, all of them have a post in front of their description. In Italy it is post fascist, for the French and Swedish version it is post nazi. I know very little about Finland, it is the East Dakota of Europe.
The German right wing extremist/populist version, which actually started out as far more moderate conservative, is lead by a Lesbian. Can you even imagine the republican party having a Lesbian woman as a leader?!
The others that you mention are very different in many ways from the republicans. They all, for example support a strong welfare state, strict gun controls and three of the four are lead by blonde women, for some reason.
And say what you will about those but there are no videos of them running up a to a victim of a school shooting and screaming crazy stuff at them. First of all because there are no school shootings in Europe.
If you look at actual electoral support: Finland 20.1%; Sweden 20.5%; Italy 26.0%; France 23.1% (first round); Germany 10.3% . France is a somewhat special case (Italy too actually). In the last presidential run off election (second round) the RN got 41%, by far their best result, but this is to no small part down to Macron being so hated. The election had the lowest turnout since 1969 and even of the people who did vote more than 8% handed in blank ballots.
In essence, the right wing populist or extremist parties that are in some ways similar to the republican policy platform (on immigration and some cultural issues) are still very different in other ways, especially when it comes to welfare policies. If you sneeze in Sweden a state employee comes running with a pack of tissues.
That is the reason why nobody in Europe would vote for republicans.
"Killary"
Uh, how creative. On the other hand you could have written "Billary" or "Sillary", even better "Shillary". I guess that is why Trump is so popular, he is miles ahead of the right wing flock when it comes to puns.
Orwell84
Must be wonderful living with all that denial to reality....
Orwell84
Also, why do you keep citing opinion polls hahahaha!
Booming
@Orwell84
Well... I was actually citing election results. :)
Orwell84
Yes, I know. I was talking about your posts all over this forum. But in any case, when le Pen of France is so close to power, it really takes a giant leap of delusion on your part to think that republicans wouldn't come close to being elected in Europe... Also, you're as misguided as they come - because you think the present is set in stone and unchanging. I mean, how foolish are you? To think that what is happening now is just going to remain static? Do you really think the left and this progressive insanity is going to continue indefinitely? That future generations won't end up swinging back firmly to the right? Because that's what's already started happening, darling ;)
Booming
"Yes, I know."
Hahaha, sure. :D
"it really takes a giant leap of delusion on your part to think that republicans wouldn't come close to being elected in Europe"
I guess I didn't explain it clear enough. LePen is pro abortion, pro strong welfare state, pro gay marriage, believes in climate change and she doesn't even have a stance on gun rights because nobody is for liberal gun laws in Europe. See the slight difference between far right Europe and the Republicans now?
"That future generations won't end up swinging back firmly to the right?"
hmmm so far it certainly seems like future generations are very very progressive. Maybe the generations after that, hmmm?
I know that you don't believe in polling, I guess considering your view you kind of have to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Generation_Z
And please don't take this personally but I will ignore you now.
Orwell84
I don't take that personally - I don't give 2 shits about you or your awful scrawling nonsense all over Jammer reviews; I just take it as affirmation that I've sussed you out, and that you live in an echo chamber ;)
Bye now, booming!
Jammer
Glad you two have agreed to ignore each other. Please make good on that so we can get back to Star Trek. Thanks.
Booming
Don't worry. No further encouragement needed.
Mike
Fantastic episode, best to date! Wonderful for long-time fans like me, bravo!
SpaceTime Hole
When I saw Moriarty (Daniel Davis) is the trailers, my hopes were high.
This episode dashed them.
Seeing poor Brent Spiner back for ANOTHER version of either Soong or Data was… so boring & wrong.
Black Oatmeal
I thought the previous episode "Imposters" was the best episode of Picard so far. This episode isn't very good though. Lots of clunky dialog, weak characterization, and they have cranked the nostalgia factor up to 11.
Can Paramount not afford to hire one good writer? Just one, so we can get one decent episode once in a blue moon.
It takes effort to suck this bad.
Mr. Picard
I liked all the reunions here. But I just want to comment on the truly heartwarming and great scene in the shipyard.
Who didn't choke up seeing all the old ships, and then Seven reminiscing about being reborn on Voyager? This is how you lovingly pay homage and tribute to the legacy of the franchise. There's great lip service here for nerds including dropping all the right music cues from each ship. The iconography of seeing these ships one at a time brings up all that they represent for us. And the scene is beyond just self reference, it's about the characters: Jack demonstrates how he's like his Father, and Seven gets reflect on how far she's come since Voyager. In fact this scene made me realize that Voyager would be a great choice for a similar venture as Picard - even just one season of a reunion has potential. I hope they consider it while the actors are still around.
I can't believe this is the same show I watched for two previous seasons. Were the writers replaced by changelings as well? It's mind boggling how we could have such a rift in quality from such a dismal season 2 to this high quality cinematic season 3. Maybe this show really is a homage in all ways as TNG didn't really step up into it's own until its own third season. Such is life in the Trek world. We get the highs and the lows. Glad to be watching right now. I'd also like to add another meta-trek theme here. Seems Trek does best when its back is somewhat against the wall and the money is a bit tight. This is likely the final curtain for the TNG crew, and this show does not have the lavish budget of the Abrams movies. So it's kind of like the TOS Trek movies. They never had a lot of cash around, the axe of the end was always hovering overhead, and so they had to rely on some ingenuity and good writing, characters, and acting more so than effects. That seems to be the ideal environment for good Star Trek. A bit of insecurity on the future of the franchise along with some constraints on finances to encourage the development of outcomes that are not as reliant on money such as visual effects.
I'd land at *** on this one as well. Nice reunions and chemistry. Moriarity was an odd throw-in. I hope DataLoreLalB4 (That's the right way because it rhymes) turns out as a good addition after we got such a good send off. Vadic continued to be weirdly neutral...verdict is out until later.
Jason R.
"Who didn't choke up seeing all the old ships, and then Seven reminiscing about being reborn on Voyager?"
I thought Icheb getting his eye drilled and Seven avenging his death in a flurry of phaser fire was the most heartwarming part of the montage.
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