Star Trek: Picard

"Monsters"

2 stars

Air date: 4/14/2022
Written by Jane Maggs
Directed by Joe Menendez

Review by Jamahl Epsicokhan

Things happen on an all-new episode of Star Trek: Picard.

That seems to be the best synopsis for many episodes this season. Lots of things happen. I have no idea how they relate to one other or make a compelling or cohesive tapestry (weak laugh), but, yeah, sure — things happen. Some of those things are reasonable. Some of them seem like confounding already-dead-ends conjured from the sky.

In "Monsters" we go into Picard's mind, where he struggles with the troubling memories of his mother being dragged away that we've been seeing all season and possibly been making incorrect assumptions about. To facilitate this internal confrontation with the past, the comatose Picard has conversations with an ostensible Starfleet therapist (James Callis) who challenges Picard on his emotionally closed-off ways. There is some value here, and having two good actors just sitting in chairs in a somewhat adversarial face-off is at least worth something.

The long and the short of it is that Picard feels guilt and pain over what happened to his mother, who was imprisoned by "monsters." What actually had happened was his mother was mentally ill, his father locked her away for her own good, and Picard blamed his father for it. He also released his mother from the locked room, which is a missing piece to the story that's not finished here. Tallinn uses her mind-probing device to enter Picard's mind and help the child Picard face the demons in the story. The therapist is actually revealed to be Picard's father, and they have one of those deep-seated-pain conversations that straddles the line separating insightful and tedious.

I'm disinclined to do a deep dive into the pain, trauma, guilt, and so forth eating away at Picard and how they are represented by the extremely-low-rent Lord of the Rings-style quasi-fantasy sequences we see here. I'm also beyond trying to figure out why Picard is facing these things now that he's in his 90s, or just how much of this is Q's doing, since at one point Picard basically explains that Q wanted him to face this internal struggle so he could somehow learn from it. (Whose side is Q actually on here and why, and where the hell is he, and...?)

I'm struggling even more to understand what any of this has to do with the fact we're in 2024 or how it causes or doesn't cause the fascistic nightmare future seen in "Penance" — or for that matter what the "penance" is supposed to be that Picard is paying, and why. Maybe all this will be sorted out by the end of the season (certainly the whole thing with the Borg is going to connect somehow; more on that later), but there's an equal if not greater chance that it won't add up and won't matter.

In the meantime, we get some serviceable scenes alongside a healthy dose of meager ones in a meat grinder of a storyline that features loudly grinding gears. None of this makes any sense, and the show is all over the place.

We've got Rios lovestruck over Teresa, aka Cute Doctor, which feels obligatory. And we've got Seven and Raffi, who banter over this would-be relationship vis-a-vis their own nonexistent one. Nothing doing here. Seven makes the discovery that the Borg Queen has locked out controls to the Sirena computer, and that she compromised Jurati before she was shot. They use camera footage to track her down in Los Angeles. Seven makes a deduction about broken glass that had me blinking at the screen in bewilderment over the logical leap.

So now Agnes is on the loose as the big Borg threat. She goes into a bar to break a window because — it's such a rush, and the endorphins are speeding up the Queen's takeover of her mind? Seven warns that Agnes will become the new Queen and could eventually assimilate the entire planet. Maybe that will happen before they emerge from the spatial anomaly after crossing from the parallel universe in "The Star Gazer." Or not. There's no way of knowing, because any number of a million unrelated things could happen between now and then.

Unfortunately, removing Agnes as a conscious participant from this story and just making her a pawn in the Queen's takeover plot is not the way I hoped this would go. And, who knows, maybe it ultimately won't be. But this week's Agnes/Queen story was both rote and minimal, which is too bad since it has sometimes been one of the more entertaining things happening this season.

Then there's the whole Guinan thing. She's still here, having not left the planet thanks to Picard's earlier pleas. She seems slightly more Guinan-like here than in "Watcher," but not enough, and this takes a sharp left turn into bizarro El-Aurian mysticism/fantasy when she attempts to "summon" Q with a magic bottle of brandy in a procedure she says "always works." Except, of course, this time.

Or maybe it did. There's the last-minute twist-destined-to-become-a-red-herring, in which Detective Holland "Dutch" Wagenbach (Jay Karnes) comes into the bar and arrests Picard and Guinan under suspicion of being extraterrestrials, I think he said? Huh? Is this a Q trick? Did Q send them? Is Q now the chief of police able to dispatch units wherever they're needed on a moment's notice? I have no idea where this is going, but I hope at some point the writers will get to something that resembles a point.

"Oh, you've gotta be shittin' me":

  • Picard's mother being locked away, and indeed everything inside Chateau Picard, feels excessively 18th century. Wouldn't they have a better 24th-century treatment for mental illness than "lock her in a room"?
  • I guess we're done with Renee Picard. Apparently Picard came all this way to have a five-minute pep talk. Although Renee then witnessing this very man being run down by a car and whisked away by strangers might not be the best thing for her mental health, no?
  • Another issuance from the Department of Too Many Red Herrings: Soong and his daughter, and the cover-up of his genetic experiments don't factor into this episode at all. Is this going to end up connecting in any relevant way? Or was Soong just a plot device to hit Picard with a car?
  • Tallinn reveals herself to Picard as a Romulan, apparently a distant ancestor of Laris, Picard concludes. Who, of course, looks exactly like Laris. Yawn.
  • Rios gives Teresa the 25th-century device to wake Picard up, saying, "I trust you." This makes zero (0) sense, as even though Rios is not a doctor he should know more about the medical technology than she does (and all she does is press a friggin' button).
  • Rios' Star Trek IV-inspired line "I only work in outer space," was too predictable and obvious (I said it aloud before he did), as opposed to the funny and inspired moment with Punk Mohawk Guy. I guess you only get to have one of these jokes before they fall flat. Rios bringing Teresa and her son onto the ship also felt like it was going through Star Trek IV motions without a real purpose.
  • I'm noticing that I'm seeing actors I haven't seen in a decade or more in things (in this case, James Callis and Jay Karnes) and realizing how much older they look. Then I look in a mirror. Time is the fire in which we burn.

Previous episode: Two of One
Next episode: Mercy

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270 comments on this post

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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:11am (UTC -5)
I don't even know where to begin.

I guess a Q can be summoned like a genie now.
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Greg M
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:17am (UTC -5)
If someone can explain this episode to me I think I would be grateful. What even is this season because it's become such a mess I have lost track of what is happening. I guess the Renee plot is done, now Picard has to respect Q and I didn't even get the mother and father stuff. Also Rios is really screwing up the timeline of do we no longer care about such things.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:23am (UTC -5)
I liked Picard getting arrested...it;s like a metaphor for what should happen for his insisting upon turning Jean-Luc Picard into Patrick Stewart.
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Greg M
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:27am (UTC -5)
@Jaxon

Maybe. It's still repetitive though. This season is running in circles. I was really hoping we could go back to the Stargazer sometime this season but I doubt that now.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:34am (UTC -5)
"hide my truth"

"I'm from Chile, I just work in outer space"

And the return of the imposter calling themselves Guinan.
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AMA
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 3:12am (UTC -5)
This episode was better than the last four as the plot seemed to move forward with greater strides, particularly by finally uncovering much of the mystery that surrounded Picard's past. With that said, and despite recognizing that the memory is being recalled from the vantage point of a child, the conceit was a bit odd. The episode likely would have benefited from a deeper unpacking of depression as well.

Santiago Cabrera continues to shine as Rios; Raffi and Seven were given a bit more to do than of late; the callbacks to 'The Voyage Home' and 'Q Who' were cute; and the bit of retconning regarding the El-Aurians and Q was alright.

A few strays elements did not work quite as well, such as Picard's outbursts, Rios' complete abandon of his hidden identity (though, that's likely to be indicative of his feelings for Dr. Ramirez), the 'effects' related to the attempted conjuring of Q, and the ending. I suppose next week the authorities will finally catch up with Raffi and Seven, and then all the main cast will have been arrested at some point in the season. Given the incarceration rates of the country, that actually might be more fitting than not. :p

All in all, a better outing, perhaps ramping up to the close of the season.
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Colin Lindsly
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 3:35am (UTC -5)
Who knows what Picard's mother had? It was bad enough that Picard remembered his mother being locked in a room. I mean, really, this is the message that they want to send about mental illness or disability. That if you have it, you need to put somewhere out of sight, out of mind, and that you are cursed with a monster. This show is pissing me more and more.

I know depression. My mother suffers from it because she is suffering from the awareness of being old and being laid off because of her age. The company she worked at openly admitted that was one of the reasons for her being laid off. Here is why we are discharging they said in an official letter. We have an example of two employees with the same skills and the same position, only difference is the age. One is 72, one is 35. Well, gee, we let the one who is 72 off.

I know depression. I have it because at my level of functioning as a person with autism I know how screwed I am in life and that the probability of me becoming a fully functioning member of this American culture is damn near impossible. It wasn't that long ago that people like me were put in mental asylums or into segregated workplaces. The places where supposedly I am able to get help have been gutted financially and the people there are overworked and underpaid.

These jack-ass writers know about mental illness as much as they know about the other hot-button topics they covered this year, which is squat. There are three more episodes of this terrible season left. Ugh.
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Visitor1982
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:17am (UTC -5)
72? In what backward country do you live that you need to work when you're that old? I'm glad that in my country (The Netherlands) we all can have a nice pension when we're 66/67. Everyone!
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Jason R.
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 5:07am (UTC -5)
"72? In what backward country do you live that you need to work when you're that old? I'm glad that in my country (The Netherlands) we all can have a nice pension when we're 66/67. Everyone!"

My father is 78 and he just recently semi retired and now works part time. I hope he never retires - people need purpose in their lives and as long as they are physically able it's good to work. I can't imagine retiring and sitting around all day. But that said he doesn't dig ditches or work in a coal mine - he is a doctor. Obviously a manual labourer can't work as long as someone in a knowledge field.
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Visitor1982
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 5:35am (UTC -5)
^

Well as long as you don't HAVE to work to pay your bills. When you want to is a different thing.
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Bryan
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 5:49am (UTC -5)
This was very convoluted and opaque. I had to watch scenes over and over again even just to be able to make suppositions of what the showrunners' puzzling aims could possibly be. But did anyone REALLY expect them to only just now use conventional logic and viable storytelling to piece together the mess that is ST:Picard Season 2 in these three remaining episodes?

- "In every breath, who you are is who I am so proud of you for becoming." - actual dialogue spoken by a character in this show

- Raffi and Seven are like "We're the B-plot, Rios and Jurati are more like the C-plot." Yes, we noticed.

- Still not a fan of all the jump cuts. This isn't a low budget horror flick.

- The one positive thing is the "twist" that there was no domestic abuse as we were led to believe. The real monster is mental illness, it would seem.

- In order for the "1000 ways to die out there" to resonate with the audience like it did for Picard, you gotta put the exposition in the right order. Like, it would be pretty pointless if Soren said "Time is the fire in which we all burn" BEFORE we learned that Picard's nephew died in fire.

- Picard's like "Whaaat? JURATI is the Borg Queen now?" as if he were expecting someone different. Picard needs to pay more attention to his own show.

- Not-Laris is like "Isn't reliving your childhood memories all part of Q's plan!" Because it all makes perfect sense that taking Picard to an alternate timeline that he'd be compelled alter by traveling to the past where Q could then force Soong under his employ by dangling the miracle cure he's been seeking for daughter-clone #17 so that Soong could crash his car into Picard to induce a coma so that he'd have nothing else to do except revisit his past.

- Guinan just so happens to be carrying the bottle that encases the truce made between her people and Q's...? Also why is it a bottle? Did the writers make the logical leap that because Guinan is a bartender that must mean that the El-Aurians are a race of Listener-BARTENDERS?

- Oh joy. To the El-Aurians' many understated talents that include listening and bartending, we can also add "Banshee Scream." It's canon now.

- How did Seven infer the thing about endorphines...? I'm so lost.

- LOL @ it only just now occurring to them that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to bring a borg queen to the past.

- Guinan doesn't understand. Raffi doesn't understand. I don't understand. At least we're all on the same page.

What do you suppose the cops will charge Patrick Stewart with? Pretending to be Jean-Luc Picard?
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N
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 5:51am (UTC -5)
For reference, Patrick Stewart wrote the following article in 2009 about his mother's domestic abuse by his father: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/27/patrick-stewart-domestic-violence The line that stays with me is "I knew exactly when to insert a small body between the fist and her face, a skill no child should ever have to learn".

In a more recent article (2020), he says he's "still in therapy" because of it. "I see someone every week here in Los Angeles, who I have seen on and off for nearly 20 years. I’m still searching myself, still asking questions of myself"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/sir-patrick-stewartat-80-still-therapy-deal-seeing-mother-beaten/

He made a BBC documentary about his father in 2012, much of which laid the blame on his father being traumatized during WWII: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mfw63
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Dreubarik
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 6:00am (UTC -5)
Is it me, or this goes beyond Patrick Stewart getting rid of Picard and replacing him for a self-insert? Watching this episode, I thought that he has also decided to get rid of acting altogether. His performance during the dream sequence was just terrible. To echo some of the commentators above: Sometimes you should indeed just retire.
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Booming
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 6:11am (UTC -5)
"- Not-Laris is like "Isn't reliving your childhood memories all part of Q's plan!" Because it all makes perfect sense that taking Picard to an alternate timeline that he'd be compelled alter by traveling to the past where Q could then force Soong under his employ by dangling the miracle cure he's been seeking for daughter-clone #17 so that Soong could crash his car into Picard to induce a coma so that he'd have nothing else to do except revisit his past."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dvj3JIIxhI

Hahaha
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Eric Jensen
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 6:37am (UTC -5)
Timeship Relativity? Easter egg?
I knew he was familiar! Ducane! An ancestor of Ducane? LOL
That story about a queen and a mother? What is that about? Was it a memory? Why mention Locutus at all? I still do not understand the monsters... More time contamination with Rios bringing Theresa and her son...
I do not understand the Qs and Quinan...
Again, the plot is thickening, plodding, but we need some answers... And we know Q is "dying" so it is about Q as well
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Karl Zimmerman
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 7:25am (UTC -5)
I'm going to break with the developing consensus and say that was the best episode since the first two. I say this for two reasons primarily: That the format of the episode shifted considerably from the last several, and we actually begin to get some payoffs for plot threads which were dangled around in the beginning of the season.

The stuff in Picard's head was a bit of a confusing revelation once we reached the end of the story, it's true. I am glad they decided not to go for maximum trauma and make Picard's father into an abusive husband/father. But it was hard to see how this was that deep/dark of a secret in the end (although having a mother with mental illness could explain his fear of commitment). At first I was really perplexed how his "father" (who was just in his head) was providing revelations regarding what really happened, but Jean-Luc undoubtedly learned the truth regarding his mother as he got older, and just crafted narratives in his head to explain away how the mother he adored could have ended up this way. The explanation was really there for Tallinn (and us) not for Jean Luc himself, who was always aware of what had happened. I thought the "inside Picard's head" thing was enacted in a much more entertaining way than say Sloan's Brain on DS9 (though I was really missing Frakes' direction here).

Going round the rest of the plot, the stuff with Rios, Teresa, and her son continues to be well acted, a bit hokey, but ultimately heartwarming. The stuff with Seven and Raffi continues to be awful - I can't tell if they are given the worst lines (the scripting here continues to be pretty poor overall) or if it's just Michelle Hurd isn't as good of an actor as the rest. And then there's the curious decision the episode writers made to not conclude the episode at its obvious end, but append on a whole final act with Picard and Guinan in her bar. I don't know what to make of this because it's clearly Act 1 of next week, but was appended on here because...I guess episodes can't have closure or we'll stop watching?

Still, at least this episode was trying to do something other than just keep a bunch of stale B plots moving until the end of the season.
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Henson
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 9:26am (UTC -5)
@Bryan

"Like, it would be pretty pointless if Soren said "Time is the fire in which we all burn" BEFORE we learned that Picard's nephew died in fire."

Actually, that's exactly what happens. We don't learn what Picard is unhappy about until Soren is already back aboard the science station. But it mostly works, because even though the audience doesn't know exactly what Soren is referring to (or, indeed, that he even knows about Picard's recent tragedy), it's fairly clear that his words affect Picard in some way, probably related to the recent news he received.
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Mike Lindell
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 10:28am (UTC -5)
Both better and worse than the last few episodes. Some plot movement, finally. Alas, a lot of that movement was convoluted.
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Mike W
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 10:47am (UTC -5)
The comments section begins with non stop whining. I’m sorry the writers didn’t take your personal feelings into consideration when dealing with what you believe is a mental illness storyline. If the show bothers you this much, find another show to watch.

In the meantime, the show is progressing, and the ending is setting up next week to be even better. This week wasn’t the best show, but it was certainly interesting.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 11:43am (UTC -5)
In "Where No One Has Gone Before", when Picard was in an anomaly-fueled reality fugue, we got Herta Ware drinking tea. I still consider that Picard's mother flashback.

This was Patrick Stewart's.
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Flipsider
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 11:47am (UTC -5)
I don't think it's really "whining" to accuse the writers of not handling a topic like mental illness well. And saying the old line "if you don't like it, don't watch!" isn't really constructive in a review thread, the point of which is for people's honest reactions. And not merely only positive ones.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 11:53am (UTC -5)
"If you don't like it, don't watch" is as arrogant as "America, love it or leave it".
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Flipsider
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 12:16pm (UTC -5)
But you know, on the flipside... I respect people who have the courage to wade into a sea of negative reviews and post their own completely contrary experiences. Or vice versa. If your experience goes against the grain, don't be intimidated... being honest is what one should do!
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Colin Lindsly
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 12:25pm (UTC -5)
I live in the US.

About Seven and the endorphins, she replicated the experience of breaking glass to see what the Borg Queen felt. Seven described this as understanding the Queen. That is how she made the connection.
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Timmy the Tribble
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 12:27pm (UTC -5)
I’m confused. How did Baltar get off the Cylon Basestar and end up in Starfleet with a psych degree?
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Bryan
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 1:33pm (UTC -5)
"These jack-ass writers know about mental illness..."

"I’m sorry the writers didn’t take your personal feelings into consideration when dealing with what you believe is a mental illness storyline."

The jury is still out on how well the theme of mental illness will be handled. I really think we need to wait for the season to wrap up. Also, just being Picard's mother got locked up doesn't mean that the story will necessarily frame it as "good" or even justifiable. In any case, I thought going from purely a victim of abuse to victim of mental illness was the more nuanced direction to go in, even if we learn that it was actually a little bit of both in the end.


@Henson

"We don't learn what Picard is unhappy about until Soren is already back aboard the science station. But it mostly works, because even though the audience doesn't know exactly what Soren is referring to (or, indeed, that he even knows about Picard's recent tragedy), it's fairly clear that his words affect Picard in some way, probably related to the recent news he received."

I stand corrected and I agree with your assessment. At least SOMETHING rather than nothing was established beforehand. I would also add that Patrick Stewart applies enough acting chops for the audience to get the correct impression that he's not merely upset but grieving before we know what he's grieving about. I just remember that scene working for me but it wasn't the best example to contrast to the therapy with dad scene.


Btw, I'm still not sure if that Soren scene establishes that El-Aurians can do a bit of mind-reading beyond empathy and possibly some mental suggestion too since Soren adds "I know you understand" and Picard changes his mind.
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Armus
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 1:51pm (UTC -5)
lol what the f*ck did I just watch?
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Lee
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:01pm (UTC -5)
Not hi ng dumber on this site than the incel MAGA Trek fans (who never actually understood Star Trek) that say that “Picard isn’t Picard, but Patrick Stewart” and other such nonsense. Your understanding of the character isn’t greater than PStew’s, and you are not an authority on the character. He just isn’t what you want him to be, which is likely the father figure you need and never had to unfuck yourselves.

You’re just basement dwelling mouth breathers who think if you cry loud enough someone might make more 90s era television, de-age your favorite actors, and you can get doped up on enough nostalgia that you can pretend you’re living back when your lives weren’t meaningless, pathetic, dreary existences like you are now.
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Jeffrey's Tube
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:05pm (UTC -5)
Best episode since the first two episodes. Still a frustrating episode, however. By episode 7, it should be really clear what Q's plan is or at least how this all ties together by now. And . . . it isn't. What does Renee Picard's mission and changing the future have to do with causing Picard to confront his feelings about his mother and learning the truth about his father? I thought we were about to get that answer--that explanation--in the nick of time when Picard went to see Guinan. And then . . . we didn't.

Whatever that wrinkle is with the FBI arresting Picard, my feeling is we really don't need it at this point in the season. But hey, let's see what happens next episode.

I'm not sure what to do with the idea that the El-Aurians, a race that was destroyed by the Borg, were able to fight a war with the Q, which are godlike beings with near omnipotent powers. According to what we've seen, a single Q could wipe out their entire race with a literal snap of the fingers. And yet they came to some kind of stalemate? It requires quite a bit of mental gymnastics to even conceive of how this would be possible. Well, here are some possibilities:

1) The Q are actually a lot more limited than they've represented themselves to be. I would believe this if the show chose to present them with this option. It is entirely possible the Q, while still quite advanced beings and powerful, have been mostly using smoke and mirrors when dealing with Starfleet, and Starfleet is utterly unable to tell.

2) If #1 . . . have the Borg attacked the Continuum and are assimilating the Q?!

3) It's possible it was more of a "metaphysical" war, fought on planes and through means which Starfleet isn't even aware exist, and which ordinary sentient beings cannot even conceive of existing, or the like. Let's just call it something like "emotional warfare" rather than "physical warfare" (this is NuTrek, after all, ha!). And, because of this, the Q and the El-Aurians were able to fight on something like equal terms.

4) It's possible the El-Aurians were once a lot more than they are now, and that they actually lost the war rather than stalemated, and being made more "limited" was actually the terms of the armistice and their surrender.

Regardless, I don't think the show is going to explain, and I don't think the show necessarily needs to explain. "We don't understand and we're not meant to understand, it's bigger than you" is an acceptable explanation for me when dealing with a concept like a race like the Q.

And presumably, even a race like the Q has culture and culture dictates reasons for doing things that are not the most expected or expeditious, all the time.

Oh, and I don't think Guinan had *THE* bottle with the Q covenant or whatever, like it's something sealed inside like a genie or whatever. I think that little trick she did is something any El-Aurian can do with any bottle. That's what I interpreted from what she was saying. Sure, it was a cool bottle, but Guinan does like dramatic effect.

And she totally acted more in line with the Guinan we're more familiar with in this episode. Not that I think how she was portrayed previously was a problem--people have moods, ya know?
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:15pm (UTC -5)
How do you "smoke and mirrors" the Enterprise to J-25?
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Flipsider
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:18pm (UTC -5)
@Lee
Hey, is it necessary to be so insulting? I think it's very valid to criticize the show for Picard not really seeming like Picard. Even in interviews, it was directly stated they were going to write the character as being Patrick Steward, the way he is now. I think Patrick Stewart even said that is what made him want to do it. You can like or not like that approach... but it's valid for people to be unhappy with it.

And personally, I think it's especially valid to criticize that approach in light of the show's apparently desire to lean heavily on nostalgia. That's a huge contradiction.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:19pm (UTC -5)
How do you "smoke and mirrors" Picard back to 2327?
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:24pm (UTC -5)
Even by the TNG films, the Picard character was migrating towards being Patrick Stewart, at his own insistence.

Compare Picard's indignance towards Ro when she joined the Maquis in "Preemptive Strike" with the behavior of Picard and company in ST: Insurrection, when they essentially became the Maquis themselves.
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Flipsider
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:25pm (UTC -5)
You know what recent sequel show I think did an *amazing* job of both appealing to it's old fans, and also deconstructing itself in a very interesting way? The Twin Peaks remake. Some have interpreted the message of that show of being a commentary on nostalgia, and the futility of trying to hold onto the old. At the same time, it's still very compelling TV on it's own merits. And can be interpreted in many different ways.

I think it was a great example of doing something very difficult: successfully walking the line between giving fans what they want, and doing something new.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:34pm (UTC -5)
But Twin Peaks has a contemporary setting. So of course you can contrast sensibilities in the 1990s with the 2020s as evolving.

Doesn't work so well when the setting is far into the future. The Roddenberry/Berman era ran a tight ship on what the future would be like.

Trials and Tribbulations trying to portray Kirk era technology as technology going 1960s retro was kind of silly. It's like saying there will be an era in the 2070s where skyscrapers will be built with logs.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:37pm (UTC -5)
Roddenberry's "no conflict in the future" schtick could be a bit hamfisted, but neither family conflict nor mental illness as portrayed here would exist in his Federation.
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Bryan
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:42pm (UTC -5)
"I'm not sure what to do with the idea that the El-Aurians...came to some kind of stalemate?"

5) It wasn't quite metaphysical emotional warfare per se but storytelling warfare, with the Q race being like the perennial Trickster figures the cosmos but they were always pretty assholian about it, stacking the deck against the El-Aurians in such a way that the latter would be inevitably be forced to admit, much to their chargin, that they were the greater assholes all along before the Q's would be satisfied and move on. And until the truce, the El-Aurians, as such great Listeners, were compelled to play along and be receptive to the "points" that the Q race was trying to make about them until they finally just had enough one day and told them to STFU.


"About Seven and the endorphins, she replicated the experience of breaking glass to see what the Borg Queen felt. Seven described this as understanding the Queen. That is how she made the connection."

Yeah, I wondered if that's all it was. Still feels like a bit of logical fallacy to say "I felt x when I did y, therefore she felt the same thing". Almost a bit of Pathetic Fallacy too if this is supposed to apply to Borg Queens but at least Seven is the one to say it.


@Lee

"...'Picard isn’t Picard, but Patrick Stewart' and other such nonsense.Your understanding of the character isn’t greater than PStew’s, and you are not an authority on the character."

I take it you missed the part where PStew openly admitted that he's no longer playing Picard as Picard but as himself -- that there's no longer any separation between the two? I believe that's largely the context in which some of us were responding, and in that context, I do believe there is a valid argument to be made that we "understand" Picard better than even the great PStew himself if his characterization in the show is any indication.
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Li'Griv
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 2:48pm (UTC -5)
I am a sentinel from the Mirror universe, guiding you wayward souls to the light. Lost in your pitiful longing for a Trek long since died. Ron asked me to speak for him - he's presently indisposed. He asks if you would attend a multi-dimensional soiree in which the Inner Light version of an aging Picard would opine as follows: "Go fuck yourself nu-Trek Picard, you hollowed-out, emotionally-compromised, second-rate pussy." I admit, the quote is taken out of context, but what do you do.
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Eric Jensen
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 3:35pm (UTC -5)
It is very frustrating.
1. Will Theresa's son mess around on the space-ship, going on to a different tangent? What was the point of that?
2. Will the other door be opened in Picard's "dream"?
3. Who else will be arrested? Will Seven and Raffi be arrested for that car chase "teleport" too?
4. Will Q show up?
5. Will Soong/Kore show up? I am sure they will, but after all that build up, there is none here...
6. What happened to Renee?
Yeah, I get we are focusing on Picard right now...
I still like the show because I do want to know what happens. This is like a long journey and I am feeling bored but I have to get to the destination... I like PIcard because it is fan service. Picard, Seven, etc... but some solutions/hints that lead elsewhere and distract us, is not good.
So basically...
A. Q cannot be summoned now
B. They need to find Jurati or everyone will be assimilated
C. They need to find out what is wrong with Q - know your enemy...
D. What will happen to the FBI and who is this Wells?
It is good in the plot is moving forwards but there is no pay-off.
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sezduck
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 3:42pm (UTC -5)
What gets me about Star Trek: Picard (and Discovery) is that seasons, and some episodes, start off with a very promising premise, but it always falls apart.

This episode was a textbook example. The “memories” that Picard was experiencing were an intriguing concept, and I was happy that we got *some* answers regarding his parents, but then they reveal that there’s more to it, and they don’t give it to us. Why? To deprive the viewers of the satisfaction of getting any clarity on this storyline at all? It doesn’t leave me wanting more, it leaves me frustrated that they continue to stretch a very thin story / premise over an entire season.
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MidshipmanNorris
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 3:52pm (UTC -5)
Ira Stephen Behr, this ain’t.
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Flipsider
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:27pm (UTC -5)
I wonder how much of the problem is just that the writers are constantly rotating in and out. Picard feels like a show that has multiple personalities, and can't decide what it wants to be. It seems to have no plan, almost as if it's made up as the writers go along. This is kind of what you'd expect from a serialized show where a new writer comes in every second episode.

I mean, I'm sure there's examples of serialized shows constantly changing writers, and yet managing to have cohesive storylines with a satisfying ending. But it also seems like many serialized shows have the same problem, where they start out with a solid idea and then gradually lose the plot. Lost actually seemed very interesting for awhile, the casting and writing was great, the mysteries were interesting. But after awhile it started to become obvious that there wasn't going to be satisfying answers to a lot of things, and that there was sort of a lack of overall vision. I feel like there's been many serialized stories with that problem.
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Troy G
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:31pm (UTC -5)
Jeffery’s Tube:

“Quinn “ told Tuvok, ‘ We may appear to be omnipotent, but we’re not.’

I believe the Q are merely very sophisticated time-travellers.
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Peter G.
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:37pm (UTC -5)
@ Jeffrey's Tube,

"1) The Q are actually a lot more limited than they've represented themselves to be. I would believe this if the show chose to present them with this option. It is entirely possible the Q, while still quite advanced beings and powerful, have been mostly using smoke and mirrors when dealing with Starfleet, and Starfleet is utterly unable to tell."

This would really be a retcon IMO. Everyone Quinn says in his testimony suggests the Q are so powerful that they can literally have been everywhere and done everything...ever. In all space and all time. Maybe even in the multiverse, since Trek has an established multiverse. That's not just Doctor Who territory, since he has limited time in which go around seeing and doing everything. The Q would have to be more than long-lived; they would need to be able to essentially be everywhere and everywhen simultaneously, outside of time totally like the wormhole aliens.

"3) It's possible it was more of a "metaphysical" war, fought on planes and through means which Starfleet isn't even aware exist, and which ordinary sentient beings cannot even conceive of existing, or the like. Let's just call it something like "emotional warfare" rather than "physical warfare" (this is NuTrek, after all, ha!). And, because of this, the Q and the El-Aurians were able to fight on something like equal terms."

I think the term you're looking for is the Astral Plane :) And in this schema the El-Aurians would be Professor X, physically feeble but good at mental warfare.
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Link
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:56pm (UTC -5)
I'm just wondering where Robert Picard was during all this.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 5:00pm (UTC -5)
Robert got the Chuck Cunningham treatment.
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Armus
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 5:01pm (UTC -5)
I believe that in a DSC episode when they are already in the future someone mentioned that they haven't heard from the Q continuum in a couple hundred years, so my guess is that Q needs Picard to do something for him before him and his friends are gone. With all the annoying timeline contamination they are already f*cked up and past the point of no return. I mean, Borg Queen is freely roaming in LA probably trying to assimilate Earth and Rios is too horny to think straight. I still don't understand why they didn't beamed into the ship to help Picard and minimize timeline contamination even if Jurati wasn't there... ANYWAYS I think the contamination is large enough that only Q can fix it with his magic fingers. So, my hunch is that Picard helps Q and Q helps restore the timeline and also saved them from the explosion in Stargazer. That's my guess.

I'm a bit of hatewatching at the moment and I did rolled my eyes a couple of times, but I will keep watching because I love Star Trek (even the bad episodes - which there are a LOT of those) and I want to know what happens even if the show is not what I would like it to be. There's only a few episodes left and the writers keep introducing new plot strings, which is annoying because I feel like nothing much has happened since episode 2 and I find it hard to believe that they will wrap up everything by the end of the season without rushing or being sloppy. Let's just say that my expectations are low, but I am looking forward to it.
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Shannon
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 6:26pm (UTC -5)
Where is Ron Moore when you need him... I'm starting to see Jammer's point about the double-edged sword that is the serial. Seems like we could have reached this point in 4 episodes, yet these plotlines are moving at a snails pace, almost as if they had an idea that in reality would only take 6 episodes yet are painstakingly trying to stretch it out across 10... And I'm just not buying into this repressed childhood trauma storyline; however, it was cool to see James Callis. I was anxiously waiting for him to bust out into one of his wild-eyed, panicky Baltar moments!
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Colin Lindsly
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 7:04pm (UTC -5)
What they need is (a.) a plan for the season and (b.) a plan that can not be upset by the departure of a showrunner. Then, they need to run that plan by an outside neutral party who has expertise in serial stories that can help them with pacing, characters, and all the other things.
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JS
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 7:14pm (UTC -5)
"The comments section begins with non stop whining. I’m sorry the writers didn’t take your personal feelings into consideration when dealing with what you believe is a mental illness storyline. If the show bothers you this much, find another show to watch."

Take a page out of your book: if you don't like this comments section, don't read it, find yourself another comment section.
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Chrome
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 7:15pm (UTC -5)
I wasn’t looking forward to an episode in JL’s head but framing that storytelling device as a Starfleet counseling session worked. It also paid that the episode didn’t go all in on this single story but instead advanced other plot threads. For example, it’s great that Teresa is now invested in the time mission she’d been inadvertently supporting the whole season. Though it’s hard to figure what Rios has in mind exposing her (and her son) to La Sirena, it sure beats an unbelievable “we’re from the 2Xth century” conversation.

I don’t fully know what to make of the dungeon scenes that hold Picard’s Id captive or whatever that all represents. Still, the heated conversations between Picard and the counselor (Picard’s father) functioned well enough to show a haunting trauma. Regardless of the meaning behind this internal conflict (I dare not even try analyzing it all), the result of Tallinn’s rescue results in some good character beats between her and Picard. Tallinn mental escapade naturally makes her understand the man, and what looks like the imminent romance between the two seems somehow real.

Meanwhile, Seven was given Borg material that made sense. This led to a few fun detective scenes tracking the bread crumb trail to whatever Agnes is up to. It was even kind of cute to see some flirty banter between Raffi and Seven which hints how they’re offscreen relationship must’ve functioned.

The ending scene with Guinan summoning Q was mostly confusing for me. While the El-Aurian lore itself seemed promising, it was interrupted with yet another federal officer raid (man the Feds are really on the ball in Star Trek). And we’re supposed to believe these federal agents have been tracking Picard for quite some time now, to the point where they know he’s “alien”. Obviously, this is just a “wtf” cliffhanger that long-form shows love to use these days, so I’ll leave it at that.
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Troy G
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 7:39pm (UTC -5)
I want to also mention how good Orla Brady looks, especially for a woman about 60
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Rahul
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 8:27pm (UTC -5)
Really did not enjoy this episode and coming after the slightest hint of optimism after "Two of One" this one's a massive disappointment -- in fact, I think it's terrible. There's so much padding here with trying to get to the bottom of Picard's childhood memories, which have dragged on for so many episodes that I find it hard to care anymore. Also, it just seemed like every new plot development was worse than what preceded it. Like just when it could not get worse, we get young Guinan again. NOOOOO!!!

I think these writers believe that creating confusion for the viewer, making you wonder WTF is going on is a good thing. There's been too much of that in PIC S2 and it has really become frustrating. The start with the psychiatrist (father) & Picard is just more bullshit. It just feels like they're retconning too much of Picard's childhood. So the story goes from making Picard's dad being the bad guy to now his mom being some kind of psycho? Is that supposed to be an enlightening revelation? Maybe there's a theme of the importance of a father figure?? RIos says he sees Picard as a father figure FWIW...

As for Tallinn doing the "Extreme Measures" with Picard, it's all arbitrary. A really stupid part is when Rios gets a medical device beamed to him and Dr. Teresa has no idea how to use it, but she does anyway and it works. And then Rios beams her and her son onto his ship -- what ever happened to not messing with the timeline?? Tallinn breaks some shackles on young Picard's legs and voila everything is fine. Oh, and she shows her Romulan ear as if to rekindle some romance with old Picard. It all just seems very hackneyed.

And just for the ending cliffhanger, Picard and young Guinan get fooled by an undercover cop and get arrested. But prior to that we had to endure the sheer stupidity of Guinan saying she can summon Q by drinking something and uttering a scream and the whole bar shakes. It's soooo bad.

A couple of things of interest are how the Borg Queen is trying to get more control over Jurati by generating endorphins and some questions from Tallinn and Picard about why Q wants Picard to relive certain memories. Nothing stellar here but just more pieces in the puzzle.

1 star for "Monsters" -- worst episode of non-animated nu-Trek for me. It was borderline unwatchable. I suppose classic Trek has done some episodes where there's a lot of cryptic psychoanalysis (kept thinking of "Frame of Mind") but this one totally failed IMHO. Just too much stupidity here. Pretty much every act sucked.
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Ron Burgundy
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 8:45pm (UTC -5)
Picard and Seven were themselves, even if briefly. Kurtzman tried to stop it. He was sexually assaulted by a BSG apparition. Ronald Moore stepped in for just a few seconds, laughed at Kurtzman's schlock, and gave us something halfway decent. Kurtzman, we will find you, assimilate you, and take your talentless, shitbag ass out back for the beating you deserve. And my mustache will quiver only slightly. Inferior beings are irrelevant and should be treated accordingly.
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Fortyseven
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 8:51pm (UTC -5)
I think the reveal of his mother's mental health issues, and Baltar being his father, is what saved this episode for me.

I found myself enjoying where that was going.

Unfortunately that modestly interesting reveal has to weavvvvve itself into the billion or so other plot threads going on this season.

So that's one positive thing I took away, I guess.

Well, two if you count Rios, Teresa, and her kid.

I swear to god I hope they stick around. Either Rios in 2024, or the others come to 2401. As long as they stay together.

I don't even give a shit that he beamed them to his ship. That's absurd, right? And makes no fucking sense? But I don't give a shit about any of this anymore, because THOSE THREE are the one goddamned great thing that I have to hang onto on this show. :U

Well... outside of, perhaps, Jurati and the Borg Queen doing the Steven Universe-like fusion dance.

Jurati is really neat.... And speaking of 'neat', how neat is it that Guinan keeps EXACTLY the sacred, historic genie-summoning holy object they need on Earth right there at the bar, huh? This fuckin' show, man. ;)

I'm tryin', though. I'm hoping it'll all work out. But I was in a similar "maybe it'll stick the landing on all of this shit going on" last season, too.

Gotta recognize the signs of abuse. :(
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Puppylaurah
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 9:25pm (UTC -5)
The best part of this episode was Rios. His interaction with the Doctor was very charming and cute, but the rest was confusing and kind of bad. The entire sequence in Picard’s coma dream was so awkwardly acted and uncomfortable to watch. I don’t know if it was the dialogue?
I really enjoyed the first episode of this season, but it has gone downhill from here. I’m still going to watch and hope for the best. I love the cast so much. And the ending when Rios brought the doctor and her son on to the ship was nice.
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Jeffrey's Tube
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 9:45pm (UTC -5)
@ Jaxon

If the Q can only do those things with technology, rather than it being something inherent to their very nature, while claiming to others it is something inherent to their very nature, I would consider that smoke and mirrors. (And no, we don't need to be able to see them using the technology for them to be using it. Any sufficiently advanced technology . . . well, you know how that quote ends.)


@ Peter G

That's true . . . allegedly, they've all been the scarecrow. But it also cannot be accurate. Not unless, for example, Quinn has already lived Janeway's entire life as Janeway, and the life of every bacterium on Janeway's skin as that bacterium, and been every atom in the universe as it cavorts from one place to another across the entire history of the universe from the Big Bang to the Heat Death . . . there have to still be new things, otherwise the Q would each be everything, all at once. So he had to be speaking metaphorically. I think we still get the point even if he's speaking metaphorically. The episode keeps its "point."

You know, I think I just wouldn't take anything any Q says at face value, ever, no matter the circumstances. I think that's probably a good rule.


@ Fortyseven

What you find "the one goddamned great thing that I have to hang onto on this show" I find entirely extraneous, derivative (trope-y), and predictable, but hey. It's hardly one of the season's major problems, at least.

_____

Oh--if I were to go back in time and hand Queen Victoria an iphone, she'd know how to use it pretty quickly. Easy, intuitive user interface, and all that. I guess it's the same principle for the 25th century Brain Unscrambler Wand.
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MidshipmanNorris
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 11:18pm (UTC -5)
Honestly?

I haven't watched this episode yet. I've read some of your guys' comments, and it's enough for me.

For the very first time in a long time, I feel "checked out" of Star Trek. I am a big fan of "Balance of Terror," "Corbomite Maneuver" and "This Side Of Paradise." "Measure of A Man," "The Most Toys" and "The Drumhead" are all winners. "Necessary Evil," "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" are all great too.

This isn't good storytelling, because unlike all the above mentioned episodes, none of it seems to know what it wants to say about its subject material. It's all flash! Bang! Whizz! Kapow! Look! Whoa! Aren't we great?!

No, you're not; you're flailing wildly hoping to generate feelings of intensity while you're really just stalling the crowd. There's nothing here for my mind to bite down on and chew on, guys. You're not making a point. You may as well be putting on a Star Trek-Themed Light Show.

If you're not going to let Science Fiction fans write Science Fiction, then please, leave the rotting corpse of Star Trek alone. Picard and Discovery are insults to the memory of what this show used to be.
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sj82
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 11:29pm (UTC -5)
The worst episode of Star Trek ive seen - a disgrace to the spirit of the show.
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Norvo
Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 11:51pm (UTC -5)
Yeah, this was certainly something... Remember when this show was about space and ships? When Patrick Stewart said “The world of ‘Next Generation’ doesn’t exist anymore. It’s different." he wasn't kidding. But is it better?

What I don't get about the extended flashbacks to his troubled childhood: where in the world is Jean Luc's brother Robert? There's no mention of him anywhere. Unless he's the other secret we didn't get to in this albatros of an episode. I did notice the monsters in Picard's mind dungeon looked an awful lot like the older Robert Picard we met in TNG's Family. The late Jeremy Kemp would be so pleased...

I'm fine with still having mental illness in the future. Sure, it goes against Gene's vision but think about this: if humanity had really evolved as much as he claimed, why was there a psychologist sitting next to the captain of the Federation flagship?

Meanwhile it seems clear the writers struggle with the same pacing and structuring issues that plagued season 4 of Discovery. Start strong with an interesting set up and then mostly spin your wheels before rushing to wrap it all up in the final episode or two. We're in hour 7 of a 10 part season and so far nothing is resolved yet. Next week we'll waste more precious time getting Picard and Guinan out of the hands of the FBI which is such a repeat of Rios and the ICE raid. And of course Picard lost his communicator too...

Speaking of Rios... The actor's charm saves the character, but honestly I had to laugh at him handing Theresa the neural stabilizer to use on Picard. Yes, she's a doctor but this is like having an 18th century optometrist do laser eye surgery.

He also just set up another potential plot deviation by beaming two civilians onto the Borg infected La Sirena. Because oh yes, the kid already announced he's going to touch everything.
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Frank A. Booze
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:04am (UTC -5)
What the hell was that?

I recently watched the TNG episodes “Reunion” and “The Wounded” to get rid of the horse shit smell from NuTrek. It did, as of yesterday, but after watching “Monsters”, it’s like smelling a horse that ate its own shit, puked it back up, and then another horse took a shit on top of the already puked out horse shit.

Have these writers ever actually watched an episode of Star Trek before? Or are they basing everything off of Wikipedia summaries of the different series? I don’t even know where to start in describing why that episode sucked. Absolutely atrocious.
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Chris
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:05am (UTC -5)
So....this season doesn't seem to be going anywhere all that fast.

Glad to see bringing the Borg Queen to the past is playing out to be a horrible idea, as it should have been obvious she should have been disabled immediately after entering the 21st century.

The dream thing was...eh. Just....eh.

I am glad to see that Dutch has moved up from being a detective in LA to an FBI agent. That being said, didn't we already do the whole "Detained by 21st century authorities"? subplot?
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Brian
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:11am (UTC -5)
@Frank A. Booze

Yes. I do think these writers have watched every episode of Star Trek. I think they watched it all and they hated it all and they wanted to kill it. This is the result.
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Peter G.
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:40am (UTC -5)
@ Jeffrey's Tube,

"That's true . . . allegedly, they've all been the scarecrow."

Well, we don't know for sure, but in my head canon the Q can do anything other than not be Q. So while Quinn or Q could go any time or place, summon any item, change time, move things around, they are always themselves. So it's like gods in a small sandbox. They can't be the sandbox, or even the kid in the sandbox. Just gods that can be there and realize there's nothing they can't do, and therefore nothing worth doing. Although I don't like the VOY iterations of the Q, at least Quinn's complaint is concordant with what we see of Q in TNG, which is that he appears to have nothing better to do, and is desperate for entertainment. That is, until they begin to link Encounter at Farpoint with episodes like Tapestry and All Good Things, at which point they've moved beyond Q being merely a joker with nothing to do (although VOY soft retcons this back to him not having much to do).

I like to think of Trelane as a good template for what the Q are: powerful but lacking the real-world understanding of what being human is like. They comprehend all the facts about human biology, but not the experience. Trelane can adopt any costume and imitate any behavior, but it's all wrong and he doesn't really get why they're upset. Granted he's a child, but I think the idea is that the power to manipulate time and space does not equate to the ability to understand someone else's perspective.
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Frank A. Booze
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:46am (UTC -5)
@Brian

Ah, I see. Kind of like what Star Wars did with “The Last Jedi”. Come to think of it now, there is something worse than “Monsters”. It’s called Star Trek: Discovery, the entire series.

After watching these episodes, I just need to take a step back and practice the following mantra.

“I can always watch old Star Trek. I can always watch old Star Trek. I can always watch old Star Trek.”

Of course, I will come on here and complain anyways, just like I shat all over the Game of Thrones tv show on the westeros.org forums.
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:48am (UTC -5)
Norvo said:

"I'm fine with still having mental illness in the future."

I am too.. I don't buy that it would go untreated and ignored.
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dave
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:10am (UTC -5)
so... reading the comments... no one thinks that FBI fella is the Q that was summoned and he is just doing this to try to figure out what is going on?

Maybe I am thinking too much on that.

Otherwise, I have no idea what I just watched.

I appreciate deep and rich storylines, but FFS they need to at least make them understandable to their audience; which most core Trek fans are pretty sophisticated thinkers after 600 episodes of this stuff. And most are probably at the WTF point after this one.
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Ron Burgundy
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:36am (UTC -5)
I love the smell of nu-Trek loathing in the morning. Crazy people out-crazying each other.
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Sigh2000
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 4:18am (UTC -5)
@Norvo

"I'm fine with still having mental illness in the future. Sure, it goes against Gene's vision but think about this: if humanity had really evolved as much as he claimed, why was there a psychologist sitting next to the captain of the Federation flagship?"

Yes. Troi was there. We are forced to conclude that mental illness (or at least troubled and negative ideation) is (1) alive and well in the future and (2) was a big factor in Trek from the very start. In fact, there are a slew of episodes in TOS with all manner of deranged persons running around. We have: Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, the Grups, Dr. Adams, Lethe, Simon van Gelder (admittedly after torture in the Neural Neutralizer), Codos' daughter, Commodore Decker (definite PTSD case), Dr. Daystrom (who suffers a nervous breakdown when M5 malfunctions in the Ultimate Computer). Next we have Dr. Sevrin-the space hippie guru (going Full sociopathic false messiah on us in The Way to Eden). Also worthy of mention is my personal favorite Capt. Ron Tracy, run-of-the-mill banaloid transformed by greed for immortality into becoming a major war criminal. Who can forget Lord Garth, Marta, and all the rest of the inmates in Whom Gods Destroy? They were hardly healthy. Come to think of it, Roger Corby wasn't all that stable either. Oh yeah, then there were all kinds of temporary space madnesses which usually infected the ship (the Naked Time), or other unfortunates like Larry Marvick so love-sick to attempt murder and then actually driven insane after looking at the Medusan ambassador. Saddest of all were those poor colonists in Operation Annihilate made ill by those space parasites that looked like melted Swiss cheese patties flying around and buzzing. Yuck.

Despite his utopian vision, I think Roddenberry was very much aware that humanity would always be vulnerable to these kinds of disturbances.
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Robert
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 4:24am (UTC -5)
Two words:

STAR

TREK

Where is the trek into the stars? WHERE?
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Cyradus
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 4:39am (UTC -5)
Star Trek: Voyager, rejoice!

"Threshold" is no longer the worst live-action Trek episode.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 4:41am (UTC -5)
I would like to mention that Counselor Troi dealt with neurosis and problems in relationships, not serious mental illnesses. I doubt that the Federation would employ the mentally ill on it's flagship. I would assume that with far more modern methods many mental illnesses would be cured and that the stigma that still exists today would not exist anymore. Having a mental illness should be seen like a physical illness (lots of mental illnesses are actually physical illnesses)
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Eric Jensen
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 4:43am (UTC -5)
Reginald Barclay?
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:21am (UTC -5)
I wouldn't call Mr. Broccoli mentally ill. Neurotic, sure.
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StarMan
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:37am (UTC -5)
I think it would be unwise to reserve too much hope for Strange New Worlds. As Garak once said: "I always hope for the best; experience, unfortunately, has taught me to expect the worst". The goodwill is well and truly dried up.

I thought episode one of this season was a home run. If you'd told me by episode seven I'd be questioning whether I'd been too hard on Discovery, I mean - phew. This is a stunning drop off after such a promising start. I just can't believe what a mess this is - I'd take season one of Picard over this any day.
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James_B
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:59am (UTC -5)
Absolutly CLASSIC (Jammer comment section) where the very first comment was "WTF did I just watch????"

They seem very anamored with ST IV TVH though. When the kid asked Rios if he was from outer space I literally responded to the TV "no, I only work in outer space".

(not) Laris finally showed her true colors (ears). WOW, shocking plot point there.

While I am not currently a "STD" watcher the whole Guinan "SCREAMING" thing is similar to Burnam having a scream session in the middle of S4 regarding reaching out to 10-C
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Sigh2000
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:01am (UTC -5)
@Booming "I would like to mention that Counselor Troi dealt with neurosis and problems in relationships, not serious mental illnesses. I doubt that the Federation would employ the mentally ill on it's flagship. "

True...good point. Compared to TOS, TNG only rarely dealt with cases of great severity (Ira Graves was pretty weird though). Mostly Troi was really a shoulder to lean on for crew under stress (e.g., the bereaved) and is not involved in full psychiatry.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:26am (UTC -5)
Ok, I wanted to watch the episode in one go but I'm laughing hysterically about the Doctor using the mind repair thingy. Hahaha. Rios couldn't push a button? :D Is she controlling it with her mind?? Could she not do serious damage? Whatever.

God, Raffi is the most annoying character in Star Trek.

Assimilation sure takes it's sweet time. Endorphins to build nano probes?? ok. Why the queen wouldn't just walk into a pharmacy to pump herself full of endorphins is anybodies guess. Whatever.

I found this to be a little more satisfying. This could have worked as a stand alone episode until we get to the Guinan part which is also a big whatever.

I want the plastic surgery or weapon grade foundation Orla Brady is using. It's pretty funny that she is now actually an ancestor of Picard's housekeeper. Hahaha. omg...

One wonders why the Federation hasn't cured bi polar/schizophrenia and even if Mummy Picard was so completely crazy that she refused the treatment why not just have her committed. She was clearly a danger to herself and others. The problem would be solved in a day.

Rios beaming the doctor on the ship was another lol moment. Uh, and the kid Picard's acting... Her presence in this is so forced. With the wale scientist from the voyage home they actually really needed her. With the doctor it's different, how did she even know how to repair picard's ghoul body??? Would bringing Picard to the ship not have been far more logical??? Igual.

I'm still confused though what this all means. Was Picard so heavily traumatized that he forgot that his mother was crazy and how his father behaved? Now Picard is his own mystery box! :D
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Philadlj
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:37am (UTC -5)
This show keeps making more stuff up about the El-Aurians and the Q, making the same mistake as BSG (Hi Dr Baltar!) explaining and revealing way too much about the Cylons down the home stretch.

TNG understood that the less you knew about Guinan’s or Q’s people, the better. They were MYSTERIOUS and thought provoking, but could also serve as allegories. To paraphrase Garak, I find this hyperspecificity most distasteful.
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KiminAsia
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:44am (UTC -5)
First watch, I thought this was largely much better than the earlier comments,though very uneven (Picard's talk with his father, no rehab for the mother?), but halfway through, after the sudden Picard reawakening, more WTF moments. I need a rewatch.
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Chappity
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:46am (UTC -5)
I’m not sure why I keep looking forward to this show every Friday night, hoping that it will exceed my expectations.

I’m not even sure whether this is good entertainment. In order to be entertained, you have to have a story, and believable characters you care about. Right now, Picard season 2 midway is equivalent to the sci-fi version of Seinfeld in the 21st century. A show about… nothing.

Oh, I suppose things will work out in the end. That is, after all, why we keep watching this show, isn’t it—to see how things work out in the end… meaning the end of the story arc.

Too bad the vehicle for providing “entertainment” prior to the arrival of the long-awaited conclusion is such a hodgepodge.

Although it’s so easy to complain, there might have been a few standout features of this episode:

- James Callis? Um, yes, okay…
- The big reveal that Picard’s deep, dark childhood secrets were not what we thought they were. Nice little twist, there, and perhaps we’re not even done with it.
- Tallinn’s words to the young Picard in the vision: “You’ll do so much with this pain. You’ll save worlds with it.”
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KiminAsia
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:54am (UTC -5)
First watch, initially I thought this was largely much better than the earlier comments,though very uneven (Picard's talk with his father should have been meatier, no rehab for the mother?), but halfway through, after the sudden Picard reawakening, more WTF moments.And the ending? I need a rewatch.
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Colin Lindsly
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 8:35am (UTC -5)
We are not getting a resolution to Picard's issues this season.

"Ultimately, the actor helped chart an unexpected course for the role that would inform three seasons of the Paramount+ streaming series that would challenge both the character and himself. “Picard had to face a reality about his childhood and his home life and his parents that he had never ever faced before. Why? Because he was afraid, and an afraid Jean-Luc is a pretty rare creature, but to have that undercurrent of unexpected emotion running through Season 2, and coming to a climax of course in Season 3, was very satisfying.”"

https://deadline.com/2022/04/star-trek-picard-patrick-stewart-interview-contenders-tv-1234999334/
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Lodged Torpedo
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:15am (UTC -5)
Perhaps the genie bottle beacon did in fact work, and perhaps Q has managed to retain some of his powers, and perhaps the FBI man is not an FBI man…
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Alienatbar
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:20am (UTC -5)
James Callis made this interesting for me. Great acting chops and I thought he and Patrick played it quite subtle. When Pat has someone he can bounce off he is great. They could have been talking about… endorphins… and Istill would have watched it.
I felt the Tallin connection as well. JL’s gonna be pissed when he returns home to find Laris has left and Mrs Doyle is making him a ‘nice cup of tea’! FECK!

The rest unfortunately was more of the same guff. Guinan sure swept up that glass quick… real quick.
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Yanks
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:24am (UTC -5)
@Mike W

"The comments section begins with non stop whining. I’m sorry the writers didn’t take your personal feelings into consideration when dealing with what you believe is a mental illness storyline. If the show bothers you this much, find another show to watch."

This web-site bustles with praise when it's appropriate. The question is, WTF does this "mental illness storyline" have to do with anything?

@Lee

"Not hi ng dumber on this site than the incel MAGA Trek fans (who never actually understood Star Trek) that say that “Picard isn’t Picard, but Patrick Stewart” and other such nonsense. Your understanding of the character isn’t greater than PStew’s, and you are not an authority on the character. He just isn’t what you want him to be, which is likely the father figure you need and never had to unfuck yourselves.

You’re just basement dwelling mouth breathers who think if you cry loud enough someone might make more 90s era television, de-age your favorite actors, and you can get doped up on enough nostalgia that you can pretend you’re living back when your lives weren’t meaningless, pathetic, dreary existences like you are now."

Wow...

@Bryan

"I take it you missed the part where PStew openly admitted that he's no longer playing Picard as Picard but as himself -- that there's no longer any separation between the two? I believe that's largely the context in which some of us were responding, and in that context, I do believe there is a valid argument to be made that we "understand" Picard better than even the great PStew himself if his characterization in the show is any indication."

Hence the problem... many here including myself brought up that letting Patrick in the writers booth would be a big mistake. It appears we were correct. I don't give a rats ass what Patrick thinks Picard is, I care what intelligent writers and producers (yeah, I know what we have) think he is based on a rich history of this character and franchise. They screwed it up right out the gate last year when they made Picard a quitter.

@Troy G

"I want to also mention how good Orla Brady looks, especially for a woman about 60"

Fact... she looks like she's 45. And a very capable actress I might add. I'm holding out that this is in fact Laris and she has been watching Picard all along.

After I watched this, I asked myself... what does anything mean?

Are we to believe that TNG's Guinan had a bottle laying around so she could summon Q when she saw fit? What happened to that bottle when the Enterprise D crashed? the "truce" happened 100 years prior to 2024 so when Guinan when back in time in "Times Arrow" there was no truce? If the El-Aurian's can duke it out with the "Q" to a draw, how the hell does the Borg almost eliminate them?

And folks, that's not the FBI that arrested Picard and Guinan, it's LT Ducane from the time ship Relativity. (VOY S5: "Relativity") Another wrench in the messy toolbox that is 'Picard' season 2. (I think so anyways)

So Rios is worried about "breaking time" and yet he lets Teresa see and operate a 25th century medical device??!!!??? she sees in beam in? ... and then at a whim (and I mean the slimmest of whims... no big moment requiring he save them or anything) - beams them aboard his 25th century spaceship? Who the frak writes this stuff? Then the first thing the kid says is "I'm going to go touch everything" What, is this some writer getting back at his/her parents because they wouldn't let them touch everything in the store? Good lord. Santiago Cabrera must have been just shaking his head at this crap. What a waste of a good actor and what an assassination of a pretty good character (until now)

Oh, and we still haven't recovered Rios' comm badge. (have we?)

Seven and Raffi are an after-thought pretty much as well as our in-progress Borg Queen. More to follow I guess. We needed to spend an episode in Picard's head for some unknown #^%&#^$^ reason, so no assimilating going on in episode 7... no big threat here... we can wait until episode 8 or 9 for this...

Then, and even "Laris" couldn't follow Picard here - Picard somehow surmises that he needs to learn from Q? I literally was shaking my head at the TV. I still don't get the logic.

So Picard is "unstuck", there is a key, Seven and Raffi are looking for Jurarti, Rios shows off the 25th century, we get no more Q, we get no more Soong and Cara - what the frak DID we get out of this episode?

WHY did we just spend and episode in Picard's head? .... does he HAVE to realize that it wasn't his father that was the monster all along? Why? WTF does any of this have to do with saving the future?

I've given up on Discovery. The galaxy is run by females and there are no longer white straight males in the future... that's what it is... but I really had high hopes for this season. I've learned my lesson - these writers just suck. ... and I have no doubt that Patrick is a large part of the problem in "Picard'. A shame because I really enjoy, for the most part, this gaggle of actor's.
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StarMan
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:27am (UTC -5)
@Philadlj "TNG understood that the less you knew about Guinan’s or Q’s people, the better. They were MYSTERIOUS and thought provoking, but could also serve as allegories. To paraphrase Garak, I find this hyperspecificity most distasteful."

Indeed. Just as I didn't need to know why Guinan looked older, I did not need to know a thing about El Auria vs. The Continuum. How we're expected to believe a corporeal race (albeit long-lived with psychic awareness and some spooky temporal perceptions) could possibly take on a single Q - let alone the entire Continuum - yet manage to lose to The Borg is a tough sell.
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Alienatbar
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:43am (UTC -5)
My guess is that Queen saggy Aggy will be producing plenty of endorphins next week by banging Mr 8ball from the bar. Forget chalk drawings, we’re going to see some real ‘skyrockets in flight’. Over to you Mr Burgundy.
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Ron Burgundy
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:03am (UTC -5)
Lee,

You seem angry and petulant. I like that in a woman. How about we grab a whiskey sour and I show you how a real man covets the world.
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Brian
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:06am (UTC -5)
After thinking more about it, I realize that the bad thing here isn't that they're trying to fill in the blanks on things like the Q and Guinan thing. It's that if they're going to do it, it needs to be as epic as it was when it was left unexplained.

IOW, this is exactly why I was leery of the entire prospect of the Picard show from the moment I heard about it. I didn't know anything about the people who were behind it but I knew they weren't the same people who made TNG what it was. I was not willing to take it on faith that these people were competent enough to take something that was great and fill in the blanks with material that was of equal quality.
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Cristóbal
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:10am (UTC -5)
Anti-alien FBI man will have something to do with the point of divergence...
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Ron Burgundy
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:14am (UTC -5)
Alienatbar,

Mmm, a borg queen and a barfly. Cybernetic royalty goes gutter diving for the mangoods. That's sassy.
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Chris from Canada
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:23am (UTC -5)
Haha what a joke of an episode. The very first line after the title credits was when Raffi said "what's going on in there JL?" I laughed so fucking hard. 🤣 it was at the moment I knew this episode was going to be the worst. Seriously, whoever came up with that nickname should be forever banned from writing for Star Trek. The sheer fucking hubris 🤦‍♂️🤣

I see some commenters above quoting Garak.... sigh.... those were the days. Remember those intelligent, thought provoking and sometimes intense convos Garak/Gul Dukat would have with various DS9 characters? Yeah, we will never see that again. That was the pinnacle of well written Star Trek dialogue. Now we get dumb downed cheeky one-liners, unnecessary swearing, and whatever the hell Raffi is constantly whining about... so much whining. Shut the fuck up Raffi; worst star trek character ever created.
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Badger
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:26am (UTC -5)
FBI Agent Welles i believe. As in Wells. As in HG Wells. Author of The Time Machine. The Timeship Relativity. Crewed amongst others by Lt. Ducane. Played by Agent Welles guy.
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Artymiss
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:52am (UTC -5)
Dire. How did something manage to go down hill so quickly after those two promising opening episodes?!
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Flipsider
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:01am (UTC -5)
Yeah I loved Garak and Dukat's characters (until Dukat went off the rails in season 7.) What was great about them was not only their intelligence and charm, it was how you got a picture of an alien race's different culture just from their personalities. And other Cardassians as well... those writers seemed to have a great grasp on the specifics of the alien race they were portraying.

Contrasting to this show, not only is there nothing like that, but everyone from the 24th century acts like how people act today. Do the writers have a lack of imagination? I wonder.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:20am (UTC -5)
@artymiss
Weren't all NuTrek seasons like this? A few good episodes at the beginning and then...
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Species 10-Forward
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:30am (UTC -5)
This is what I think the Germans call fremdscham - being embarrassed for someone who has embarrassed themselves.

I had an inkling of how Picard’s millimeter-deep self-analysis was going to go down, and it hit just about every false note I expected, including that something was wrong with mummy’s head. Watching the VFX, I kept thinking about how much money they spent to tell a story this cheap. My Ambien-inflected viewing experience made this episode much more bearable, but unfortunately not forgettable.

Since Guinan summoned Q from a bottle like I Dream of Jeannie, perhaps Picard can summon the TNG team by wriggling his nose back and forth.

Also Picard is Su’Kal. Picard’s trauma caused The Burn. Discuss.
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Flipsider
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:38am (UTC -5)
Among certain circles of people, there's currently a very strong preoccupation with anxiety and depression. So, the fact that that just happens to be the "issue" from Picard's past is not a surprise, but feels really forced to me. It doesn't feel like 24th century problem to me, realistically.

We already have *some* medication to deal with this type of thing now, although it's very shotgun approaches and we still lack a lot of understanding of the brain. I think a more imaginative and open minded view of the future would speculate that this is the kind of thing their medicine can solve. We DO see that psychologists exist in the future in the form of Troi, but note that when people have psychological problems, it's usually for heavy real world reasons and they aren't just suffering depression as an illness of it's own.

It's unfortunate that the style of writing behind Picard, which very much wants to make episodes about modern issues to the point of desperation, just ends up lacking imagination and foresight about what the future might bring. It's a more subtle aspect that is missing from the newer Trek shows, and makes them less inspiring.
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Sven
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:45am (UTC -5)
I honestly have no idea what I just watched.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:07pm (UTC -5)
@Species 10-Forward
It's Fremdschämen.

@Flipsider
That didn't look like some kind of depression or anxiety disorder. That behavior was probably some kind of bipolar or schizophrenia. Who knows what actually happened but the woman portrayed was obviously psychotic.
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Robert
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:11pm (UTC -5)
Ok, I really tried... but this show has become unwatchable. I'm going to stop watching until the season is over so I can just binge watch the rest of this travesty and move on with my life. No S3 for me!

Although it was nice to see James Callis again, this whole psychobabble subplot is extremely unrewarding. It's not that I don't find mental illness a worthy subject, but that the writers of this show seem incapable of crafting a meaningful moment that makes us care. The way things inch along, all I can think is, this whole season could've been a 2.5 hour movie. I really wish they would abandon the serial plot model for this show. It just doesn't work. I think about a show like BSG where it did work because they created such a high stakes situation with highly diverse characters that were deeply explored interconnectedly.

This show just can't decide what it is. There are too many loose plot threads that were already outlandish to begin with. It reads like there were too many leaders in the writer's room who all had ideas -- dumb ones. That, or the superficiality driving the ideas just can't be reckoned with.

The way Picard's childhood has been presented to us from episode 1 has been totally uninteresting. Like, I just couldn't care less. Now we find out that she was mentally ill and this all ties into Patrick Stewart's real life to make some kind of PSA for the viewers. I just don't care. It's not the kind of "progressive" ideology that really works in Star Trek. They are successively ruining the Picard character with every episode. When we finally get to the big reveal about his mother, the shrink sessions in his head, the mental exploration... it's skin deep. James Callis was wasted on this episode. Picard's interaction with the shrink... who the hell wrote that scene? It's just Picard being angry and avoidant for almost the entire episode. Boooooring.

The scene with Guinan just made me give up. So the El Aurians, who were defeated by the Borg, somehow had the power to bring the Q to a negotiation table?

This show is a parody of a parody of a parody. I'm out! Bye felicia.
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Flipsider
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:11pm (UTC -5)
@Booming
Hmm. Well anyway, those are also issues you could imagine being solved in the future, when understanding of the brain ought to be better.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:14pm (UTC -5)
@Flipsider
Absolutely. I wrote as much. Many of these mental illnesses are due to an imbalance in the brain chemistry which should be no problem for super advanced tech.
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Frank A. Booze
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:20pm (UTC -5)
@Cyradus

Ha ha. I don’t know if I would go that far. But pretty sad when you need to stop and think about whether it is actually worse than “Threshold” or not.

I agree with a lot of people that Raffi is a poorly written character. In this episode, she did nothing but try to engage Seven in playful banter, as where Seven seemed focused on actually finding Jurati. As sad as this is, I don’t hate Raffi as much as Burnham. At least Raffi isn’t written to be the person responsible for saving the entire universe every season.
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Artymiss
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:23pm (UTC -5)
@Booming
Weren't all NuTrek seasons like this? A few good episodes at the beginning and then...

Possibly, probably... This time I was foolish enough to have hope!!! Picard 2 though does seem to have gone downhill far more spectacularly than Disco ever managed.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:28pm (UTC -5)
Another thing I find quite amusing is that the ship was still only shown in the dark. They are not using the cloak anymore, I guess the Picard estate is so gigantic that nobody can see a huge ship parked in a small forest. :D

I must admit that it is kind of funny how people are still annoyed or surprised by all this. It's the sixth season of NuTrek. Personally, I have watched all but season 4 of dsc. All those season were convoluted messes with shallow, barely explored themes. Discovery at least tried things, this show on the other hand is just Star Trek: Reference. That they got the old TNG crew for one last paycheck reeks of desperation. Oh and people will watch.

It's dead. Let's not be bitter and enjoy the last three episodes of the vomit comet. :)
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RedD
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:30pm (UTC -5)
More nonsense, more preaching. Baffling garbage dressing itself up as "Star Trek".
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nacho Picard
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:35pm (UTC -5)
The worst episode from the worst Star Trek related thing I've ever felt compelled to watch.

This season is like Voyager's Threshold over and over and over again.
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Sven
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:48pm (UTC -5)
@nacho Picard

Threshold at least had a redeeming quality in that it had an (albeit far fetched) scientific basis. This episode had mostly uncomprehensible chaos. I have seen everything Trek, but this a such a low point I have trouble wrapping my head around it. Absolutely flabbergasted.
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Marc
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:54pm (UTC -5)
Really feels like every episode spends the first half wrapping up the previous episode's big cliffhanger (Rios is on a bad bus! Picard got hit by a car! Picard is under arrest!) and then the second half of the episode setting up the next one.

Also, this is easily the closest I've ever come to not actually completing an episode of post-TOS Star Trek. I don't think the intention is for the viewer to nod vigorously when Picard shouts that this backstory delve is irrelevant, but there it was.

Have the creative team behind Picard actually watched a decent TV series in the last twenty years?
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Li'Griv
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:54pm (UTC -5)
Threshold is better because it attempts a "Triple Lindy" level plot, and the result is Rodney Dangerfield hitting his head on all three diving boards before careening into the spectator's gallery and killing several old ladies and one dwarf-sized person. It has ambition yet leaves the audience wide-eyed and bewildered, as it concludes its Sam Kinison-esque assault on our senses and well-being. Picard is like the uptight professor in the film except with Alzheimer's and constant bouts of flatulence.
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Bryan
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 12:57pm (UTC -5)
And that's also the curse of serial storytelling. You can't give up on just one episode halfway through without giving up on an entire season. More likely though, you're glued to your seat and are strangely compelled to watch the whole trainwreck unfold.
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dave
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:03pm (UTC -5)
Well, everyone, we are a LONG LONG WAY from IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT, aren't we ?
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The Queen
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:04pm (UTC -5)
In my personal rating system I only give episodes pluses or minuses, and I was on the fence about this. On the plus side, half of the Emotional Picard Mystery is cleared up - his beloved mother was mentally ill (schizophrenia I'm guessing). I very much liked the various illustrations of Picard being "stuck." I'm also in favor of the idea that Q wants Picard to face his inner demons.

But I seem to have a lot more minuses.
- Why not tell us the rest of the EPM? That young J-L was somehow responsible, at least in his own mind, for his mother being locked away. That's got to be the reason for the guilt.
- Agree about the missing Robert, although possibly he was so much older than J-L that he'd left home?
- Rios handing the neural stabilizer to his doctor GF is hopelessly wrong.
- The GF's kid is being written as a real brat - he smirks when told he's broken a promise, then threatens to "touch everything" on La Sirena.
- Rios takes them to La Sirena for no reason and potentially awful consequences.
- Rene Picard's storyline is completely dropped. Are we past three days yet? Will we get to see her lift off with supportive music?
- A complete repeat of the arrested-by-cops scene from a few eppies earlier. This had better be a ruse by the lead cop-who-is-really-Q. (If he's being summoned by Guinan, there's no reason he'd look like he usually does to Picard.)
- I am so uninterested in the Seven-Raffi nonromance, it's a waste of screen time to me.
- One short scene is not enough for the Agnes/Queen battle.
- The pacing was slllooww.

So I guess it rates a minus.

With the news that next season will feature most of the TNG cast, one wonders what will happens to the actors from this year. I vote as follows:
- Rios stays in the past with Dr. Ramirez.
- Seven and Raffi go off to be Rangers together far, far away.
- Agnes becomes a good Borg Queen and turns the hive toward the light, or back to the Delta Quadrant.
- Q is still mysterious, but much weaker.
- Elnor stays dead.
- No new Soongs appear.
- Soji isn't important enough to mention.
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TheRealTrent
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:05pm (UTC -5)
This show continues to get fairly decent reviews. On the top ten or so search hits on google for this episode, most of the magazine reviews are positive. On the Trek forum, everyone loves this stuff. On reddit, the StarTrek subreddit has split into two different subreddits, one half hating this stuff, the other loving it. The fandom seems to have bifurcated starkly into those who love this stuff, and those who can't stand it.

This seems different to previous Trek, where there's a general consensus as to what good and bad episodes are.
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mosley
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:23pm (UTC -5)
Some random thoughts in no particular order :

- well, those developments were certainly all remarkably random, to the point where it feels like the writers just put their hand into a bag with random dramatic plot developments and just threw the first five things they got on the screen.

- but at least, there was development. So from a bare bones "was I bored or not" entertainment angle, this easily was a step up from the previous episodes.

- James Callis! Wheeee!

- also James Callis : aaaargh, why do you have to show up on screen and remind my of how much better such a series can be? I certainly like Picard a lot more than DSC, but none of this new trek business comes even remotely close to BSG on a bad day.

- fascinating to see how Stewart, who generally now sometimes seems too lazy to act, dials it up once Callis is in the room. He's clearly still got it in him, but apparently the best way to get a good performance out of him these days is to put an actor in front of him that makes him worry that the scene might get stolen if he doesn't bring his A game.

Well, fine by me, do that more often then 😄

- which leads me right to my next wish : can we please have as little Raffi as possible? Terribly written character, and terribly acted on top of it. At this point, all I can think in those scenes is "that's seven of nine there in the frame, can you please stop yapping, I want to hear what she has to say"

- and yes, getting paired with the completely pointless Raffi character is really a monumental disservice to Jery Ryan. Seven of Nine character, completely wasted and reduced to being a sidekick in a completely ineffective "duo". I'm sure it looked good on paper in the writers room, but boy, what a waste this turns out to be.

-staying with Raffi and Seven for a moment : this now starts to rival seven/chakotay in terms of least believable, chemistry free on screen trek romance. Can we please just stop dealing Jery Ryan a completely fabricated, plot-unearned love interest at every turn and just let her function as individual character? Worked great on voy all those years, you know? What an irony to now always force her into a... collective of sorts 🥳 (sorry)

- I laughed out loud when young guinan quoted the jazz hands gesture from whoopie in TNG. It's completely pointless (and the whole explanation attempt as to her species relationship with the Q is really remarkably yeah-whatever) but hey, I laughed, so there's that.

Managin expectations, I guess. Oh well. First two episodes felt a lot more promising than what this now turned into. I'd like to be emotionally involved, but the sheer randomness of it all thoroughly destroyed my suspension of disbelief. Be less lazy with your plot writing, please.

Ah well, they get one more try with S3 and the TNG cast. Of course I will watch. I'm a trek addict.

But boy, imagine a nutrek on the level of BSG. Maybe they should just call Ron Moore and have him create another "gonna show Berman and Braga what I tried to do when they didn't let me" extravaganza.
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Artymiss
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:27pm (UTC -5)
@Queen

- Rene Picard's storyline is completely dropped. Are we past three days yet? Will we get to see her lift off with supportive music

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten all about her! 😆
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Chris Lopes
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:32pm (UTC -5)
"Not hi ng dumber on this site than the incel MAGA Trek fans (who never actually understood Star Trek) that say that “Picard isn’t Picard, but Patrick Stewart” and other such nonsense. Your understanding of the character isn’t greater than PStew’s, and you are not an authority on the character. He just isn’t what you want him to be, which is likely the father figure you need and never had to unfuck yourselves.

You’re just basement dwelling mouth breathers who think if you cry loud enough someone might make more 90s era television, de-age your favorite actors, and you can get doped up on enough nostalgia that you can pretend you’re living back when your lives weren’t meaningless, pathetic, dreary existences like you are now."

I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over. :)
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Li'Griv
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:35pm (UTC -5)
TheRealTrent - the real question is whether the latest incarnations of "Trek" have anything but a cosmetic connection to the source material. Because if they don't, does it really matter if anyone likes the shows? And I'm pretty sure if Gene were still alive today, people like Kurtzman wouldn't be allowed within a parsec of the Trek kingdom. Similar issue to Lucas's decision to give up control of SW.
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Booming
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:39pm (UTC -5)
@The Queen
Renee was unstable, then had Picard talk to her for half a minute and after that somebody tried to kill her, while terribly injuring the nice man who turned her around. The last we see of her is staring down on Picard in horror. Mental problems solved. Next stop Io! :D Hahaha
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Lodged Torpedo
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:41pm (UTC -5)
If you want more help from me
JL, there's a price to pay
I'm a Q-ueenie in a bottle
You gotta rub me the El-Aurian way
When you scream like a banshee
You can somehow summon me
You gotta drink the essence of our truce
Then the correct timeline I'll reintroduce
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Artymiss
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:47pm (UTC -5)
"You’re just basement dwelling mouth breathers who think if you cry loud enough someone might make more 90s era television, de-age your favorite actors, and you can get doped up on enough nostalgia that you can pretend you’re living back when your lives weren’t meaningless, pathetic, dreary existences like you are now."

If you think of Q's voice saying this it's quite amusing!
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Flipsider
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 1:49pm (UTC -5)
@Artymiss
Wow, it really is! Maybe he had Q's voice in mind while he was writing it!
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Jason R.
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:00pm (UTC -5)
""You’re just basement dwelling mouth breathers who think if you cry loud enough someone might make more 90s era television, de-age your favorite actors, and you can get doped up on enough nostalgia that you can pretend you’re living back when your lives weren’t meaningless, pathetic, dreary existences like you are now."

If you think of Q's voice saying this it's quite amusing!"

It works even better with Garak.

Or, for a real laugh, try it with Sisko and insert some gratuitous "DAMN!" In there.
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Artymiss
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:05pm (UTC -5)
""You’re just basement dwelling mouth breathers who think if you cry loud enough someone might make more 90s era television, de-age your favorite actors, and you can get doped up on enough nostalgia that you can pretend you’re living back when your lives weren’t meaningless, pathetic, dreary existences like you are now."

Also works in the voice of the Grand Nagus.
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nacho Picard
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:06pm (UTC -5)
Imagine someone watching Picard and saying the ones disliking the show are the ones who don't understand Star Trek.

Imagine someone watching Picard and saying "yes this is Star Trek. This is a worthy continuation of the franchise."

Wouldn't be me.
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:19pm (UTC -5)
The Queen said:

"Agree about the missing Robert, although possibly he was so much older than J-L that he'd left home?"

Robert arguably *never* left home. He took over the family business.
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Jay
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:24pm (UTC -5)
I'll avoid the moronic arguments erupting here between people who have opinions and people who have different opinions.

Anyway: I thought this episode was probably the season's best so far. It wasn't perfect (some of the B-plot material outside Picard's head was a bit too campy), but the primary focus was very nicely conceived. I really liked the way they explored Picard's past, and I don't think it's a bad thing if that parallels Patrick Stewart's past in some ways. It's simply true that for much of his fictional life, Jean-Luc Picard has been allergic to emotional expression, to sharing himself, and to being close to other people outside the professional environment. So that they've taken the psychoanalytic route to discern why is, while not necessarily the best-aligned with modern psychological theory (that's my field), an accessible and familiar approach. As long as it's executed effectively, it can be very good -- and I think this episode was admirable in that light.

I did have some concerns about the way mental illness was being portrayed through Picard's mother, but I am also inclined to wait and see how that develops before I throw any stones. There are many legitimate ways they can handle this from the foundation in place, and I suspect they'll get there.
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:37pm (UTC -5)
"""You’re just basement dwelling mouth breathers who think if you cry loud enough someone might make more 90s era television, de-age your favorite actors, and you can get doped up on enough nostalgia that you can pretend you’re living back when your lives weren’t meaningless, pathetic, dreary existences like you are now."

I read it with Time's Arrow's Mark Twain voice...
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Maq
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:46pm (UTC -5)
@Greg M

No I can't explain what is happening but it was more viewable than lst time.
There is a lot of complaints regarding whining and that one could stop whatch if you do not like.

I like to wath it but it is not the Trek I prefer. I just finished watching The Orville for the first time. It was sometime silly, but very watchable and even good but it did not really get this extra trek feeling. (Well it isn't trek or?)

Picard and even DISC gives something more that makes me like it, and Picard is better.

My whining, it's good enough to watch but I still would like the 14 good stories in a season than a very looooooooong.
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Steve McCullagh
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 2:59pm (UTC -5)
Seriously, do the writers really not know Picard had a brother, or are they just ignoring it for no reason?
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Karl Zimmerman
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:13pm (UTC -5)
Picard's brother was mentioned by his mother in a flashback in the first episode of this season.

I'm not sure why he would be mentioned here, as he is not story relevant.
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Jonas
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:31pm (UTC -5)
I was actually liking this episode, until Rios brought that lady into the ship. I literally scream "oohh, c'mon!" At my TV. However, even worst was the ending. Until the very last moment i thought the FBI guy would be a different Q, but that just pissed me off. On what ground would you arrest somebody for materialising somewhere? Terrorist activity?
Even worst, how are writers gonna fix the immense contamination of the timeline? So far, every single character from the future has manage to do some irreparable damage to the past. Is Q gonna snap his fingers by the end of episode 10 and erase everything? Be my guest, and erase these season if possible too.
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Nick
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:35pm (UTC -5)
Picard's mother "You must learn to lead people with inspiring speech"
Young Picard "I will never be able to do that"
Picard's mother "But you will"

*eyeroll* guess he lived up to his mother's expectations.

I actually thought the idea of fleshing out Picard's issues with this mother and father and explaining how that shaped him into the man he became was a great concept that was very poorly written. It's a better side plot than Rios being arrested, the gala, etc, and having Gaius Baltar there helped, but it could have been so much better.

The end of the episode just devolved into nonsense. Summoning Q and Picard getting arrested was beyond stupid. Are we going to spend the entire season in 2024? If so, I'm going to be really disappointed.
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:36pm (UTC -5)
They're gonna have to dust off the Voyager reset button. It's the only way to decon all the stupid.
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:47pm (UTC -5)
The Queen said:

"- Seven and Raffi go off to be Rangers together far, far away."

Not sure how much it means, but Jeri tweeted gleefully about the entire TNG cast joining in S3, so presumably she gets to stick around and work with them. Either that or she's eager to decamp the shit show and glad to have reinforcements.
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Nick
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:48pm (UTC -5)
I forgot to mention another thing I rolled my eyes at when watching that other commenters mentioned. Rios giving Dr. Theresa future medical tech under the premise that she is more qualified to use it than him is also beyond stupid.

She just pointed it at his head, pushed the button, and waved it around in circles. I'm sure they teach that in 21st century medical school.

I think with those things if you move it around in a clockwise circle the mind heals, but if you move it around in a counterclockwise circle you stay in a coma forever. Maybe Rios couldn't remember which direction to make the circle motion.
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 3:54pm (UTC -5)
@Nick

It reminds me of Voyager's "Extreme Risk", where the Doctor said that Torres healed herself "with the skill of a first year nursing student".

From what I could tell, it;s just a healing beam that you shine over the wound. It's hard to believe that it can be done with various levels of skill. It's like saying someone is very skilled at using a flashlight.
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Dahj’s Digital Ghost
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 4:26pm (UTC -5)
@Nick — If this entire episode had been an exploration of Picard’s childhood and family life, including relevant flashbacks to Robert, Marie, and Rene, sans “Monsters,” I would have been happy.

As it stands, meh.
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N
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:14pm (UTC -5)
"They're gonna have to dust off the Voyager reset button. It's the only way to decon all the stupid."

Imagine if Picard turned out to have been dreaming the entire season Dallas-style - his fevered mind reimagined Laris as Tallinn, Soji as Kore, and Altan Soong as Adam Soong. It would make more sense than some of what we've seen so far. OK, so it would render the preceding episodes void... I'm not seeing a downside?

Even better if they go full Frame Of Mind and he then wakes up again and realizes S1 was a dream as well...
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:33pm (UTC -5)
Could be like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz...

you were there, and you were there"
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:34pm (UTC -5)
"Even better if they go full Frame Of Mind and he then wakes up again and realizes S1 was a dream as well... "

Have a final scene where Patrick Stewart wakes up next to Rick Berman...
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EmpressHoshiSato
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:55pm (UTC -5)
Seeing Dr. Baltar as Starfleet/the Father was great.

Missed opportunity for the Agent at the bar to be Captain Ducane from the 29th Federation Timeship Relativity from Voygaer.

Thus Seven would recognise him.

The therapist scene was more like Star Trek. The vineyard flashbacks at the start were terrible until the adult Picard and Doctor Baltar arrived. A lot of time used up in the limited 40 minutes yet again, which surely is a poor use of screen time.

Didn't seem like Rios had to break the Prime Directive at all yet he did. Cute Doctor is hot , but still. And is it safe to take her back to the Starship that has been compromised by the Borg Queen?

Raffi poor at the start, better towards the end. Seven more like Seven towards the end.

Guinan should be played by someone who looks more like Guinan or just by Whoops herself. Didn't quite understand why a Q could not be summoned. The plot didn't appear to advance much or explain the big picture much at all. As for the Borg Queen, surely that should be the priority now given the entire premise of the movie First Contact!

It really seems like the 24th century Starfleer crew should have fabricated some ID to cover themselves in the event they encounter the authorities. Unless the agent at the end is the Federation Time Department given it's the exact same actor from Voyager.

Doctor Baltar would have been a great Starfleet character and hope he would have more of a role. Did Picard senior accidentally allow a seductive Borg agent access to the Federation Defence Mainframe? Did the Borg collective gain the ability to remotely disable a great portion of the The defensive fleets of Earth, Vulcan and the founding worlds of the UFP before Starfleet could mount a defence? Did Picard junior have to lead an Enterprise E, due for retirement and survivors of Earth and Starfleet to safety to the rumoured lost 13th colony?

Better than last week, but so much of it did not feel like Star Trek and was a poor use of screen time.
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P Car
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:09pm (UTC -5)
Psychologist: Even your closest friends call you Captain
Next scene
Raffi: What’s going on in there J-L?

Christ on a bike.

Starting to wish Elnor survived and Raffi was killed off. That’s how bad things have got…

Probably the weirdest episode of ST I’ve ever seen (yes including Beverley having ghost sex) as no plot, random events, bizarre decisions, Jurati goes to a bar and to get endorphins, she breaks glass. Why?? Just why?

No Spiner or Q this week. Why?

Best Bit was from a film.

Are you from outer space?
No I’m from Chile…

Difference here was that she was actually seriously asking him this. In ST IV she was being sarcastic.
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Alienatbar
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:34pm (UTC -5)
Yup, the closest friends Capn thing? Yuk Yuk. Raffi on form.
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grey cat
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:36pm (UTC -5)
I quite enjoyed this one right up until the "Guinan" scene.. I was never that keen on her character to begin with but this just isn't Guinan or any El-Aurian we've seen (which I guess is only 2?).

That almost ruined a pretty decent episode for me.

Rios semi-copying Kirk's line was amusing but unfortunately reminded me that I wasn't that keen on 10 episodes of Star Trek 4 in the first place.

I'm also not sure where they're going with Picard's unability to be err overtly emotional or touchy-feely? So what? Many people aren't and still lead happy fullfilling lives - in fact he did in "The Inner Light". Not to mention Beverly called him Jean Luc pretty much the entire series. Just.. Odd.

I did like the fact the FBI have caught up with them at least - I mean they've been incredibly sloppy about beaming into and out of places. Even in my moderately sized townin 2022 it's unlikely you could beam into any street without being picked up by CCTV or camera of some kind.

But yeah somehow I enjoyed it anyway. 2.5 stars for me. Might have been 3 without the Guinan scene.
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Flipsider
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:41pm (UTC -5)
@P Car

"Psychologist: Even your closest friends call you Captain
Next scene
Raffi: What’s going on in there J-L?"

Oh man, good point!

It's as if, in examining Picard's character, the writers can only conceptualize him as the man *specifically* from TNG. But, at the end of TNG, there's the classic scene of Picard sitting down and playing poker with them, with the implication that he's loosening up a bit. He would've changed and continued to evolve over time.

For that matter, I think the idea that Picard from TNG was some emotionally stunted man is an exaggeration. There was really never any cause to think he had childhood trauma. It was just in his character to be stuffy and overly serious, keeping a bit of a professional distance between him and his crewmates, but he can and did frequentally bond with many of the crew members throughout the course of TNG. I'd say he was portrayed as well adjusted, kind, and nurturing in his own way.

I think it's why they made such a bad choice in trying to focus more on Patrick Stewart. That would have been fine if what they were trying to say also fit with the Picard character... but it really doesn't, not at all.
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grey cat
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:50pm (UTC -5)
@Artymiss

"Possibly, probably... This time I was foolish enough to have hope!!! Picard 2 though does seem to have gone downhill far more spectacularly than Disco ever managed."

DSC started fairly low and sank way, way lower.
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Alienatbar
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:54pm (UTC -5)
All this talk of Garak and Dukat. Seriously well written supporting characters and played beautifully. I once had Robert O’Reilly running up auditorium stairs to kill me Klingon style at a fan gathering as I suggested having both he and the mighty Hertzler in the same room was.. almost.. as good as having 1 Jeffrey Combs. They were brilliant. Had a photo with my daughter who was next to Gowron. She’s, eh WTF! Priceless.
Damned if anyone is going to question my nostalgia!
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Alienatbar
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 6:56pm (UTC -5)
Didn’t Guinan leave the bar for good???
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Dahj's Digital Ghost
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:55pm (UTC -5)
@P Car —
"Psychologist: Even your closest friends call you Captain
Next scene
Raffi: What’s going on in there J-L?"

I caught that, too. Hilarious.

I guess they've forgotten that not only did Beverly Crusher call him "Jean-Luc" all the time, she was also known to call him simply "Jean".

Hmm....
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Flipsider
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 8:04pm (UTC -5)
If my name was Jean-Luc, I would tell my close friends NOT to call me "JL." In fact I'm pretty sure I could identify my enemies that way.
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EmpressHoshiSato
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 8:10pm (UTC -5)
Oh yes, the "J-L" thing again was annoying.

Next week, will J-L meet Jalo? Or Seven of Nine is suddenly referred to as 7-9.

As far as the "reset" button goes mentioned above in the comment thread, best way would be this whole show is actually a hallucination during Picard's torture on Cardassia. Suddenly the lense flare will awaken him. The scene from the TNG resumes.

As Picard is freed from his bonds and about to be taken away, he turns to Madred and defiantly shouts, "There are four lights!" And history continued as it did.

Fast forward to the 24th century and a retired Picard misses the stars. He is suddenly contacted by his old TNG comrades after Starfleet detects a signal that suggests Data is alive and the whole family reunite to steal the Enterprise E and save him in "The Search for Data".
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Flipsider
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 8:22pm (UTC -5)
They might do the reset button thing... especially with Q in the mix, he could just snap his fingers and everything would be back to normal. On the other hand, they could just completely ignore any time travel issues and pretend like nothing happened. That sounds to me a bit more likely.
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Tanner
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:17pm (UTC -5)
Can we just skip to Season 3 right now?
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Sen-Sors
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:52pm (UTC -5)
Indeed, I want to see how the Picard/Romulan housekeeper/Dr. Crusher love-triangle plays out. Because your life is empty and meaningless if you're single for any reason.
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Alex
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:58pm (UTC -5)
Irumodic syndrome. S2 ends with us seeing Picard with a rare moment of clarity, the other actors are his caregivers. His broken mind has imagined all of S1 and S2.

The reset button talk gave me that idea. And I’m just going to pretend that’s how it ends cause I hate both seasons anyway. Of all the possibilities for Star Trek and Discovery and Picard is what we got. Ugh.
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Jammer
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:22pm (UTC -5)
Review now posted.
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Sid
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:39pm (UTC -5)
Idk-- I'm still hung up on the fact that a starship captain in the 25th century is allowed to smoke stogies openly on his bridge during what is about to be a major life and death situation-- regardless of the second-hand smoke likely being synthesized and non-toxic. :)

You can't trust writers who think this is a cute character-building decision.

"Man... will just be too smart to keep this up. So I said 'no one smokes.'" -Gene
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nacho Picard
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 10:49pm (UTC -5)
"Picard's mother being locked away, and indeed everything inside Chateau Picard, feels excessively 18th century. Wouldn't they have a better 24th-century treatment for mental illness than "lock her in a room"?"

Yes! Thank you! The whole thing feels so moronic!
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Jaxon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:20pm (UTC -5)
The text of Jammer's review makes the 2 stars he doled out seem rather high.
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Shannon
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:23pm (UTC -5)
Quick follow-up... Reading through the comments, I'm noticing that many of you point out one aspect of the show that you liked, and you hung onto that storyline which is totally understandable (I'm intrigued by what's going on with Jurati and the Borg Queen, but little else). We're all Trekkies and we WANT this to be good Star Trek. But therein lies the rub, when you're desperately searching for something, anything, to like about the story, it's just not working overall. These last few episodes have been a mish-mash of incoherent plotlines that make little sense... 100% agree with Jammer's review.
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Greg M
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:36pm (UTC -5)
I agree with Jammer here and I agree with the star rating. We are at the point of the season where things need to start connecting together but instead we are thrown more curve balls and just keeping track of it all is hard. This episode went from point a to b to c in a span of 46 minutes and none of it felt cohesive. Where are we going and I hope there is a point soon.
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Episodenull
Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 11:55pm (UTC -5)
I felt very optimistic about this season after the first three episodes. I don't any more. It's barely coherent nonsense, just like season 1 and the first three seasons of Discovery (I bailed on season 4 after the first episode.)

I don't know why the producers of modern Star Trek felt it had to become one mystery box after another, but putting that aside I'd be okay with it if the mysteries were interesting and the overall picture compelling. They're not. The show runners aren't doing any of it well. It's just tedious at this point.

Someone over on another site posted excerpts from what was supposedly an interview with Terry Matalas where he said he stepped back from season 2 midway through to start work on season 3, with Akiva Goldsman taking over the day to day running of things. All I could think was, great, another season of new Trek that changed show runners midway and suffered for it. When will they learn?
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StarMan
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 12:28am (UTC -5)
@Jaxon "The text of Jammer's review makes the 2 stars he doled out seem rather high."

I was expecting a * 1/2.

Still, the trend is clear and frustrating. Just as a matter of interest I pulled out the calculator and added up Jammer's star count for each season up to episode 7 (NuTrek live-action only).

By episode 7, each season had accrued:

Disco S1: 19.5 stars
Disco S2: 20 stars
Disco S3: 19.5 stars
Disco S4: 19.5 stars

Picard S1: 19 stars
Picard S2: 17 stars

So basically, to pull up the season average, Picard needs to knock it out of the park the next three weeks. Someone has dropped the ball at the production end if, by the 2/3 mark, we're still waiting for the show to approach a point.
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Bryan
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 2:44am (UTC -5)
I imagine that nearly all of the episodes in this season are getting a conditional half-star in good faith that could be retroactively revoked if it turns out in the end that all the mystery boxes were empty and they were just stringing us along and wasting our time. In order to justify that, though, the season would need to make little to no sense when viewed a whole from beginning to end.
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Booming
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 3:03am (UTC -5)
People who have used Picard's first name.

- Beverly
- Vash

People who are on first name basis with Picard on THIS SHOW
- Raffi
- Deanna Troi
- Will Riker

Hahaha, never trust you coma therapist. OMG. This show is dumb.

"Then I look in a mirror. Time is the fire in which we burn."
500cc of hugs for Jammer. Stat!

I prefer that sooner or later "the drop becomes the ocean again" :)
The thought of death has to be uncomfortable, look at how self-destructive and risky Humans act all the time, can anyone even imagine how that would be if we wouldn't fear death so much?!
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Booming
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 3:08am (UTC -5)
PS: I forgot. Laris also called Picard Jean Luc. :D

I guess we shouldn't hold it against the writers that they didn't watch their own show.
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Booming
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 3:10am (UTC -5)
Oh and Guinan also called him Jean Luc. Jesus!
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Jaxon
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 3:11am (UTC -5)
Q called him John Luck Pickurd.
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Sen-Sors
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 3:21am (UTC -5)
The "JL" thing has always been awful. It makes no sense as a nickname; it's not less syllables than his real name, and it doesn't roll off the tongue as well. It was always unearned familiarity for a character that came out of nowhere but was Picard's best friend for some reason.

I wish Raffi was better written, there's no reason a sassy competent lady can't work in Trek, it's been done multiple times. I don't think Hurd is a bad actress but they went from giving her nothing to making her an obnoxious idiot for no reason. People complain about the "wokeness" in this show but look at Raffi. She's the embodiment of the myogenetic caricature of the hysterical woman, ruled by her emotions and utterly irrational. It's kind of fucked up.

I will say in her defense that it's funny how many people refer to her as a "drug addict" when she's been shown vaping on screen three, maybe four times and was visibly inebriated exactly once, when Picard was manipulating her into burning bridges with one of her only friends so he could get to the Borg cube. It's very likely the show meant to portray her in a way that implied she was an addict, but they didn't really do anything with that besides show her vaping. Good heavens!
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Booming
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 3:39am (UTC -5)
@Jaxon
Arguable Q and Picard aren't friends and the Fathertherapist said even your friends call you captain.

@Sen-Sors

In season 1 she had an entire bush of drugs in front of her house. There was also the time when everybody was shown ads and Raffi saw an ad for drugs. In this season we had the scene where it is portrayed like she had to overcome the strong urge to drink alcohol. The show certainly treats her like a drug addict. One wonders how she got her starfleet commission back without her substantial drug problem ever coming up.
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Eric Jensen
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:51am (UTC -5)
Quote: //JANEWAY: The Doctor says many of the wounds were treated by someone with the medical expertise of a first-year nursing student.// in extreme risk.
I don't think she was talking about a dermal regenerator
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Paul M.
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 5:05am (UTC -5)
I must admit I had (maybe unreasonable on my part) high hopes for this season of Picard, thanks to Terry Matalas who was the showrunner on 12 Monkeys, a TV show that ran for 4 season on SyFy. It was a genuinely good series with some nifty plot twists and great character work. I am a pretty tough critic and there aren't that many shows that I can unconditionally endorse, but 12 Monkeys was one of them: a fun little gem of time-traveling shenanigans.

Sadly, Matalas doesn't seem to have succeeded in bringing the same kind of magic to Picard.
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Jan
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 6:02am (UTC -5)
> They might do the reset button thing...

I've jumped ahead and wonder how that might work. So I did a bit of branch exploration.

Let's presume they fix things enough that when they jump to the future, they come into the OG timeline. But at what point?

Just as they're being self-destructed? Obviously can't work as most are dead anyway.

A bit later, if we understand that Q just brought them "sideways" into the CF timeline but without time traveling? Seems dubious, as the fleet will have sustained heavy losses.

Conveniently some time before the self-destruct? But then, wouldn't they exist twice in the timeline? Picard can't go wait for the call if he is already there getting the call.

So I'm left with Q reinserting them at such "some time before" point, in their same bodies. Will they retain their memories? Or will they act differently by instinct? And what about the ship then?

But I'm starting from a maybe flawed premise: Q is the only one able to move sideways, thus they jump forward into the CF timeline, after they left out. Only now it is just like the OG timeline, after they managed the fix. But it's not the "same". Is then the actual OG timeline wiped out of existence? Or is there now a parallel timeline, the OG, in which the Borg snafu happens?

In any case, if they return to CF after they left, wouldn't the Borg have already arrived and they fsckd up in the same manner?

What if they all die/are marooned in the past fixing the future? Will their future selves continue living on, oblivious to it, in the fixed future?


All in all, I can't see it working without Q intervention, and at that point I'm not sure they need the ship anyway.
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Top-Rob
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 7:52am (UTC -5)
I have so much fun reading the comments on this site, way more than I ever got from NuTrek. Thank you Jammer for having this site :)

I do have a single suggestion that would solve a lot of the issues the show has. It is clearly written as a comedy instead of a serious Star Trek show, right Kurtzman? So why not make the tone lighter (like a campy 80's comedy), and add a laughing track after every line of dialogue?
It would do a lot to make all the stupid things happening on screen (illogical events, flat dialogue, character decisions) much more bearable.

Calling a ship "Worldrazor", having skulls of other races in a room, the whole human race being so morally bankrupt to celebrate "Annihilation Day", introducing an advanced Earth-ending danger to the past (Borg Queen) and put in a mimimum of effort to have her guarded at all... having Rios being transported in a random place like that's acceptable (seriously, he could have just as easily been transported inside a wall or the earth of they're being so clumsy).
On top of that dialogue (paraphrased but still) like:
Picard's mother: "You will learn to lead people with inspiring speech"
Young Picard: "I can't... I won't..."
Picard's mother: "Oh, but you will!"
This is just a very random example of dialogue for the sake of brevity, but how could you not add a laughing track to that? I guess I will do that in my mind from now on (if I can bear to watch another episode that is, but I'm such a sucker I probably will).
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grey cat
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 8:14am (UTC -5)
@StarMan

Which shows that the star ratings don't really mean much across series.

Say what you will about PIC but it is not worse than DSC.
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Jan
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 8:23am (UTC -5)
@Top-Rob, your post could be interpreted as satiric or ironic... But to me a very real problem of modern "gritty/realistic" shows is that people rarely reacts as they would in such dire situations, for no discernible reason, which in turn makes you think "it's in the script" (in no small part due also to wanting to keep the Mystery Boxes unopened, and so making everyone withhold any interesting information, or never asking for it), hence breaking suspension of disbelief. Classic Trek campiness no doubt helped broaden the scope of what is acceptable in-universe.

Actually I thing we have seen some minimal efforts in DIS/PIC to introduce some levity... But as it's not integral to the tone, it sounds as bitchy/snarky people that should better get their act together in a professional setting instead of acting like a-holes.

And I actually agree that once you transcend the sadness of the loss opportunity that nutrek represents, taking it as non-seriously as possible helps. Or put another way, once you see "the matrix" of the soap opera that is behind it all, the seriousness takes second seat and you can enjoy it a bit more.
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Rahul
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 8:58am (UTC -5)
"Things happen on an all-new episode of Star Trek: Picard.

That seems to be the best synopsis for many episodes this season. Lots of things happen. I have no idea how they relate to one other or make a compelling or cohesive tapestry (weak laugh), but, yeah, sure — things happen."

This exactly. PIC S2 has grown extremely frustrating. We're very likely following the recipe of PIC S1 where like 95% of the season (pretty much everything except for the beginning and end) is subterfuge. It just doesn't matter. It is not making any cohesive sense and it's going to come down to a final moment -- this time between Picard and Q.

I think Jammer's rating is too generous here (as it was for the first episode of the season). This particular episode descended from just being weak into being downright stupid in far too many acts. I'd agree that one should not waste one's mental energies trying to piece together what this episode says about mental illness...

Hard to fathom how these writers can introduce so many pieces, then seemingly throw them away (Renee Picard, Soong/Kore), or bring them back in nonsensical ways like young Guinan. But again, it very likely doesn't matter.

The idea of getting the best out of familiar actors/characters has been wasted and I'm really starting to think PIC is looking worse than DSC, especially if DSC can keep doing the very few things it did right (the sci-fi elements for one) in S4. I can't identify what PIC is consistently doing right. The difference between PIC & DSC comes down to how the writers approach the multiple episodes in a season-long arc -- is it to build a story or to deceive.
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Dom
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 9:05am (UTC -5)
I agree with those who think two-stars is a bit high given Jammer's writeup of this episode. But I'd also remind you Jammer is fair and he gave two stars to notorious clunkers in DS9 like "Move Along Home."

What's really striking to me is just how many episodes this season - and in Discovery - are getting 2 stars or fewer from Jammer. Each season of DS9 had about 2-3 episodes rated at 2 stars or less, but each season of DS9 was 2.5 times as long. By contrast, Picard Season 2 already has two 2-star and one 1.5 star episodes. Even if the final three episodes of this season are great, that's a very high proportion of terrible episodes.
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Top-Rob
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:45am (UTC -5)
@grey cat
"Which shows that the star ratings don't really mean much across series.
Say what you will about PIC but it is not worse than DSC."

Agreed on both accounts. For instance, I would not leave a negative review about DSC as I simply stopped watching it ages ago. And I'm still not at that point with PIC.

@Jan
"@Top-Rob, your post could be interpreted as satiric or ironic... But to me a very real problem of modern "gritty/realistic" shows is that people rarely reacts as they would in such dire situations, for no discernible reason, which in turn makes you think "it's in the script" (in no small part due also to wanting to keep the Mystery Boxes unopened, and so making everyone withhold any interesting information, or never asking for it), hence breaking suspension of disbelief. Classic Trek campiness no doubt helped broaden the scope of what is acceptable in-universe.

Actually I thing we have seen some minimal efforts in DIS/PIC to introduce some levity... But as it's not integral to the tone, it sounds as bitchy/snarky people that should better get their act together in a professional setting instead of acting like a-holes.

And I actually agree that once you transcend the sadness of the loss opportunity that nutrek represents, taking it as non-seriously as possible helps. Or put another way, once you see "the matrix" of the soap opera that is behind it all, the seriousness takes second seat and you can enjoy it a bit more."

I fully agree with you. And the 80's sitcom with the laughing track is a bit much, I know :). But for the rest I'm pretty serious.
Just for good measure: I don't find harping on a bad show nearly as much fun as simply looking at a good show. I would wish for NuTrek to be great. So I'm not trying a jerk to NuTrek. But since it has Star Trek in the name I have some expectations and I before DSC aired I expected NuTrek to be (quasi) serious and smartly written. But not only does it fail to meet those expectations, it does it so spectacularly that it still baffles me every time.

So PIC still has me as a hostage because I'm a helpless sucker for something with something Star Trek in it, but you really have to use a different mindset to get any joy out of it. In that sense my post is dead serious. But even I stopped watching everything NuTrek except PIC.

Even minor stuff like small scenes... like you mention the snarkiness. The 'highly trained and professional' Starfleet members of the 24th century are somehow less able to collaborate on a professional level than some REAL random people that don't even know each other?
"Are you sure we are supposed to be here?"
"I KNOW HOW TO READ A TRICORDER!"
Wow... just wow. It's a minor gripe but it's so far removed from the uplifting, positive outlook on the future that -for me- was always the magic of Star Trek. But I guess writers have problems and lost hope and everything has to be as dark as "The Walking Dead" nowadays.
---
I have seen TNG/VOY/DS9 multiple times and will probably see them multiple times before I take my last breath. That much of a fan. Not sure if I will finish PIC but I will definately not see it ever again.
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Jaxon
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 11:58am (UTC -5)
Even if nuTrek were good it would be much harder to rewatch, because it's not episodic. If you have time to catch a quick episode of Start Trek in between tasks, you're unlikely to pick an episode in the middle of an arc, even in a show like DS9 with an ongoing overall storyline. You're, say, more likely to pick In The Pale Moonlight than Strange Bedfellows.
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Sxottlan
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 1:37pm (UTC -5)
Such a shame. I liked the dialogue and scenes with Callis, but this show again seems lost compared to what I thought was a very strong start.
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SouthernD
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:39pm (UTC -5)
Does anyone have a good feeling about Strange New Worlds at this point? I mean, if they can't do two live action shows right, how can they do a third?
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Jaxon
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:43pm (UTC -5)
I don't consider any nuTrek can on to the prime timeline.

As far as I'm concerned, it takes place entirely of it takes place in a mirror universe. That includes Strange New Words.

The last prime canon Trek is Demons/Terra Prime from 2005.
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Greg M
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 5:41pm (UTC -5)
@SouthernD

I think this idea of having Star Trek on nonstop to the point of oversaturation is really hurting the product right now. At this point I think they should end Picard, wait until the Summer and then premiere Strange New Worlds. I know they won't, but my opinion on SNW might be harsher considering it will air the same time as Picard's Season 2 finale. They really need to plan some breaks because there might come a point where there is too much Star Trek.
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Q-Bert
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 6:39pm (UTC -5)
"The last prime canon Trek is Demons/Terra Prime from 2005."


Amen.
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Daniel Prates
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 6:45pm (UTC -5)
Anyone else fearing that Tereza's son will pull a "wesleycrusher" and kinda hit the right button or turn the exact knob to take them out ot trouble on the nick of time by the ending of the season?
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Jaxon
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 6:58pm (UTC -5)
Maybe the Traveler will take a fancy to him.
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Frank A. Booze
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 11:06pm (UTC -5)
@SouthernD

I wouldn’t say I have a good feeling. I am mainly curious to see what it is like, and if they give episodic storytelling a shot. I did really like Anson Mount in Discovery as Pike, so I am willing to give it a shot.

@Jaxon

Yeah, I don’t consider anything in Discovery or Picard prime universe canon.

I cannot accept Burnham being Spock’s brother. If she were, Spock would have murdered her, as that would have been the only logical thing to do with Burnham.

I also cannot accept Picard as being a golem. But I suppose that is easier to accept than Q creating an alternate timeline, where Picard would have to travel to the past to correct the timeline, and in the process save his ancestor from a hit and run, resulting in Picard being put into a coma, all in order for him to confront his past. And then logically deducing that this is what Q wanted all along.

OMG, how will Picard escape the FBI in the next episode? What a cliffhanger! I hope it’s as exciting as Rios escaping ICE! Maybe we can get another car chase scene with Raffi and Seven where they banter!

F this stupid show.
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Tommy D.
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 11:08pm (UTC -5)
One thing I have found a little amusing in the comments is the aversion to "JL". Most people either know me or have referred to me by my initials for a long time. Its somewhat of an oddity for the field but I can relate to it, and there's never been anything negative associated with it. So I admittedly have a bias and don't really share in the negativity towards it.

As for the episode, I'm with Karl and a few others. I enjoyed most of the episode and the imagery going on in Picard's mind. I am curious as to whether he has awoken from the coma yet or somehow deliberately did so, as that story with his mother and father doesn't seem to be complete.

However, I also think this was another wheel spinner of an episode. As a standalone I think it was fine but as part of the larger story I'm not sure it did much at all.

2.5 stars
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Flipsider
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 11:24pm (UTC -5)
I don't think there's anything negative with using initials. It's more just that Picard was called Jean-Luc by his close friends in TNG, and "JL" just sounds a bit ridiculous and ill-suited for him.
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Jaxon
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 11:26pm (UTC -5)
I suppose we'll have some or all of the TNG crew calling him JL or Jean-Luc next season.
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Bryan
Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 11:47pm (UTC -5)
I'm not even sure if I've woken from the coma yet, let alone JL. Crazy times.
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Tommy D.
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 12:21am (UTC -5)
@Jaxon @Flipsider

Though I don't agree about how JL sounds in the context with Raffi, if the TNG crew were to do so, I would have to concede that it would sound fairly ridiculous.
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Lynos
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 3:55am (UTC -5)
I gave up on STD after season 2 and on Picard after season 1, I just couldn't take it anymore. But I still like to come here once in a while to read Jammer's take on this pseudo-Trek and I truly admire him for braving it. Never in the history of mankind was it a more thankless job to be a Trek fan.
I also like coming here and scan through the comments to see that I'm not really missing anything. It seems to be still utterly underwhelming and nonsensical, ignoring the rules, tone and logic of the franchise in which its set. Honestly I prefer to watch the Red Letter Media diconstruction of this travesty than to watch the actual show.

The sad thing is that all this tripe is official canon now. It's almost heart-breaking. I wish someone would come along in the future to make a real Star Trek series that would tell us the Kurzman era was a fever dream of Q or an alternate universe created by a spatial anomaly. I dunno, just friggin' make something up.

Now, Strange New Worlds, I am tempted, I have to admit.... Anson Mount's Pyke was my favorite thing about STD season 2, and the character has untapped potential. So I like the premise, I like the cast, but it's the same friggin' creative team. Is it possible it will not be tripe? Is it possible they will not comtaminate the Trek timeline with utter bollocks? Shall one dare to hope?
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Bryan
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 4:53am (UTC -5)
@Lynos

I believe there's a chance that Strange New Worlds won't be TOTAL tripe but I'm sorry to report that the outcome does not look too good for Pike. Because you know that the showrunners will lean all the way in to him suffering an agonizing and debilitating fate worse than death from which he cannot return, as is the destiny of all SWMs who lack plot armor. Even legacy characters like Icheb and Hugh aren't spared once they've outlived their usefulness...and it's not like their doom has been foretold like it was for Pike.
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SC
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 6:00am (UTC -5)
It's a mess, sadly, but a mess I will only ever watch once. I've only seen the first season once. I keep hoping the episodes are only 38 minutes long, to get through it. Entering a character's mind is such an old sci-fi trope and it's usually tedious.
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Dom
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 6:47am (UTC -5)
@Greg M, I agree and I personally won't be going out of my way to watch SNW. One reason I took a chance on Picard Season 2 - despite being really disappointed in Season 1 - is because I thought Discovery was getting better. Picard is two steps backwards. And nothing about SNW suggests it'll be a big leap in quality from the other shows. It has the same writers and creative team.
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KiminAsia
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 7:47am (UTC -5)
Second watch on a dark and stormy night (seriously). The first half with Picard's deep backstory held up slightly better on a second watch, but his recognitition of the therapist as his father fell flat. The rest was just a waste, though the Rios actor is great.
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Lynos
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 8:39am (UTC -5)
@ Bryan

Yeah, I know, and I did not like this part at all in “Through the Valley of Shadows”, but it was all par for the course for Discovery which played fast and loose with old-established characters and their back stories. If we were dealing with competent writers here I would say they could do something interesting with this future knowledge of Pike, but I fear it's just going to be a cheap dramatic device to let Pike have a darker side. Because we know it happened and we know he can't change it, even though this goes against previous episodes where your present knowledge could effect the timeline. In other words, the writers have opened a can of worms, but whatever. Nothing new here.

And I always thought it would be more powerful to see a Captain Pike show where we're the ONLY ones who knows about his ultimate fate. It would imbue everything with a sense of tragic irony. But now that the character is aware, what is he going to do? He's certainly not gonna care much about his own fate. He can go on dangerous missions because he KNOWS he'll survive well into the future. I mean, WE know it, but he doesn't.
Kirk was ready to sacrifice himself many times for his crew and put his life on the line, but heck, Pike knows his destiny, so he's safe. In other words, this stupid plot development they did in Discovery is compromising Pike's character as aleader of men and women.

Anyway, I'm gonna give the series a shot, especially if it's episodic as they promise it would mostly be, but my expectations are low. And I won't be surprised if the writers decide to go the other way and just pretend “Through the Valley of Shadows” never happened, or only mention it when it's convenient.
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Artymiss
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 12:45pm (UTC -5)
@kiminasia

You willingly watched this TWICE?!
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Trek fan
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 1:15pm (UTC -5)
This whole season feels like a rehash of Star Trek IV, repeating so many beats. Besides the ones already mentioned, we have Picard in a coma and getting arrested by federal officials ala Chekhov, ala not in the same order. Maybe he’ll have a funny interrogation scene next week too, ala the Russian thing. It’s all way too serialized for enjoyment.
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Lost Mercenary
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 6:15pm (UTC -5)
This season... Jesus Christ this might be worse than Discovery
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grey cat
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 6:46pm (UTC -5)
@Lost Mercenary

I guess DSC is almost old enough to be treated with the slightly rose-tinted glasses of ENT and VOY (and I have to admit some TNG/DS9).

Not a chance is PIC worse. Rewatch DSC if you can stomach it then you'll remember (I actually tried that.. didn't last long. New Eden is actually good though.)

----

I would definitely agree with one of the posters about about Rios (or rather the actor). I feel they're under using Rios, Seven (and Jurati a bit less so). Those guys are real proper actors - certainly compared to the relative unknowns of some of the previous series and I feel they're kinda standing around without much to do a lot. Raffi is just being badly used.

I realise it's a vehicle for Steward but great as he is, i'd rather they'd called it something else and not had to focus on him so much.
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The Queen
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 8:28pm (UTC -5)
Booming:
Renee was unstable, then had Picard talk to her for half a minute and after that somebody tried to kill her, while terribly injuring the nice man who turned her around. The last we see of her is staring down on Picard in horror. Mental problems solved. Next stop Io! :D Hahaha

Sure, I know all that. I was just pleading for some actual closure.

Jaxon: Robert arguably *never* left home. He took over the family business.

I was thinking something like "away to university for business degree."
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 9:59pm (UTC -5)
@Jaxon
" 'If you don't like it, don't watch' is as arrogant as 'America, love it or leave it' "

To be fair, I don't get why people who hate Nu Trek fork their well-earned money to watch it. Why, in the name of the Great Bird of the Galaxy, do these people insist on financing a project that mutilates the thing they love?

It's absurd.

@Grey cat
"Not a chance is PIC worse. Rewatch DSC if you can stomach it then you'll remember (I actually tried that.. didn't last long. New Eden is actually good though.)"

I can't stomach either of them, but I firmly think PIC is far worse.

DSC - at least - mostly leaves the classic iconic characters alone. Pike was actually treated with dignity and respect. Spock's character was kinda butchered, but it wasn't *that* awful.

PIC, on the hand, is downright vicious and malevolent in its treatment of the classic Trek material. Picard's character has turned into a mockery of himself. Icheb literally butchered onscreen. Seven becoming a murderer. Now they are also ruining Q and Guinan... not to mention all the times where PIC actively mocked the ideals and morals that TNG always stood for.

So no, there's no way DSC is worse.

@Booming
"Weren't all NuTrek seasons like this? A few good episodes at the beginning and then..."

Yup. This has become a staple of the newer live shows.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 10:08pm (UTC -5)
@Ron Burguny
"I've been censored by this foolish, mortal site denizen."

Good!

This should have happened a long time ago.

Gotta admit that I don't understand why Jammer is giving this guy so much leeway. Pretty much all his comments here are troll-posts with zero substance. Why allow this kind of behavior? It contributes nothing to the discussion. It's unpleasant. So why?
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Peter G.
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 10:57pm (UTC -5)
I don't remember that quote from Anchorman. Maybe I need to watch it again.
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Tim M.
Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:10pm (UTC -5)
Similar to last week, I found this episode perfectly serviceable and making me want to see the next installment, so a success. I do miss the early 25th century, though.

Some plot threads are starting to come together. Talinn is an ancestor of Laris, and helps Picard realize that his mother suffered from what I'm going to guess was major depression with psychotic features based on what the show's revealed thus far. This gives context for Picard's knowing statement that depression in a human is debilitating and that there may be a family history of depression given Renee's struggles that Q was seemingly trying to exploit. I doubt that Picard's father literally locked her in a room. That's just what the show wants us to think at this point. How this ties in with the damage to the Q Continuum I'm not sure about yet.

The trailer for S2 and the trailer for next week suggest that Wells/Ducane saw Vulcans or Romulans on earth as a child, but it's also possible that we'll learn that there has been some other meddling. I think the boy we see receiving the mind meld is *not* young JLP, as I had initially thought.

The "I'm from Chile, I just work in outer space" line made me chuckle. I didn't find it corny at all.
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dave
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 12:30am (UTC -5)
Jammer giving it 2 stars was a shock. I for sure thought he would pull out a 1 or a 1/2 star for this one. Hes a nice fellow.

We need ignore buttons, this Ron Burgundy fellow needs to do something else with his time.
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grey cat
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 7:18am (UTC -5)
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

"PIC actively mocked the ideals and morals that TNG always stood for." applies equally to both shows at best and more realtically applies to DSC more.

PIC at least has hints of Star Fleet crew acting like Star Fleet now and again. DSC literally never does - they're just unprofessional children.

I don't have a problem with Picard's character changing as he ages, mellowing and becoming more reflective - people do. Seven seems like a slightly humanized version of Seven from VOY. Yep Icheb was butcherd on screen, that was a plot point. Someone's head exploded in S2 (?) of TNG. Q is ill (dying?) so who knows and I never cared for Guinan but the new actress is dreadful at playing her I agree.

So to compare to DSC:

Mediocre actress playing the lead
Literally everything revolves around Michael saving the day and being a hero despite being probably the biggest mass murderer of any Star Fleet commander/captain.
Weakest cast of any Star Trek version (literally soap-opera level of acting)
Not a single likeable character since they all act like children
Many characters barely have back story or any defining characteristic
Ridiculous plot (ok that could be same for PIC at the point we are in this season but it's not over)

So no, there's no way PIC is worse.

It's not meant to be TNG season 8 but at least it isn't DSC 2.0

Maybe I'll hate it as much as DSC by the end of this season but it has a long way to go to sink to those depths yet. I'll concede it's definitely having a wobble right now.

@dave

An ignore button would definitely be nice to avoid the main 2 trolls on this forum but it's easy enough to scroll on by.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 8:26am (UTC -5)
For anybody who wants to understand why NuTrek is such an ethical wasteland I can only recommend "A perverts guide to ideology" (It's on archive.org). It's just fantastic and explains why a corporate product is constructed like this is.

It's a blast. If you like deep thought, give it a go.
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Jonas
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 9:07am (UTC -5)
I have a teory for why Robert is missing from the flashbacks. At that time he was sent back in time, got a sex reassignment cirgury, so he could impersonate Reneé Picard, find life on Io and save the future of humanity. That explains why Reneé, a supposedly trained astrounaut, was so scared of the mission. Thats why Jean Luc (sorry, JL) doesn't remember her and thats why Robert is missing from Picard's visions.
I know it, and you know it... that's gonna happen!
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Karl Zimmerman
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 11:18am (UTC -5)
Again, Robert being in Picard's weird mental space wouldn't make sense within the context of the story, even if it was better written. The emotional dynamic here was that Picard idolized his mother, and demonized his father - they were who were important to the story. Robert doesn't have a place within this particular story, and in the first episode his mother intimated he (as the older son) spent most of his time with Maurice anyway (which may partially explain why they were never close). We already got a great look into the Picard/Robert dynamic in Family back in TNG anyway - no reason to revisit it. Indeed, since Picard mended fences with Robert before his (pointless offscreen) death in Generations, I wouldn't expect he was holding any resentment of his brother, and that we'd see him here.

Regarding Strange New Worlds, Henry Alonso Myers is running the writer's room. He was co-showrunner on one of my favorite shows from the last decade (The Magicians) which means I have high hopes for smart character writing. Hopefully his influence wins out on that show over the hackish Goldsman (who seems like a mench and has a genuine love of Trek, but can't write for shit).
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EmpressHoshiSato
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 11:46am (UTC -5)
Missed opportunity for the Agent at the bar to be Captain Ducane from the 29th Federation Timeship Relativity from Voyager. Thus Seven would recognise him.

Did Picard senior/Baltar accidentally allow a seductive Borg agent access to the Federation Defence Mainframe? Did the Borg collective gain the ability to remotely disable a great portion of Starfleet defending Earth and the founding worlds of the Federation?

Didn't seem like Rios had to break the Prime Directive at all yet he did. Cute Doctor is hot , but still. And why on Earth would a 24th century Starfleet officer hand a 24th century piece of equipment to a 21st century human expecting her to magically know how to use it? And is it safe to take her back to the Starship that has been compromised by the Borg Queen?

As for the Borg Queen, surely that should be the priority now given the entire premise of the movie First Contact!

It really seems like the 24th century Starfleer crew should have fabricated some ID to cover themselves in the event they encounter the authorities. Unless the agent at the end is the Federation Time Department given it's the exact same actor from Voyager.

None of this season seems to connect/make sense as to what the bigger picture is.

According to the Nemesis deleted scene with Riker pulling a prank on his replacement, Captain Jean Luc Picard did not take to his new Number One (whom he had selected) calling him Jean Luc ("Very good Jean Luc."). Bizarre why anyone else later would call him "J-L". The closest person to him out of his oldest friends like Beverly may have called him Jean Luc at most.
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Jammer
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 12:08pm (UTC -5)
Okay.

It's really pretty simple: If you are attacking other users without contributing to the conversation, your comment may be deleted. If you're debating the behavior of someone else instead of forming a coherent argument, your comment may be deleted. You may argue against others' views or positions, but you need to do so without resorting to ad hominem attacks or whining about their past behavior. If your comment exhibits that behavior and disappears later -- well, that's why. Figure it out. (As a side note, follow-up comments responding to offending comments may also get deleted in the overall cleanup to avoid an overall thread derailment. Don't take it personally, but do take it as a reason not to respond to such comments in the first place, since you will have wasted your time.)

Comments will be removed at my sole judgment. I'm not going to entertain hearings on the matter. I frankly don't have the time, and nobody else cares. And attacking the judge will not help your case. I think I've built up enough credibility around here as someone who allows people to discuss ideas coming from all kinds of perspectives, including and especially those I personally disagree with.

Crying about censorship, cancel culture, free speech, blah, blah, blah -- I. Don't. Fucking. Care. This is not a public square and I am not a government. If you don't want to play by the rules, then don't post. Stop wasting everybody's fucking time.

Will I delete everything that violates the rules and/or in a timely manner? Nope. Things will inevitably fall through the cracks, and I'm not on here 24/7. But I'm sick of the verbal attacks and the he said/she said. Anything that starts to go down that route will simply be removed without comment. And if you attack me over it, that also will be removed. Not because poor old thin-skinned me can't take criticism, but because it's irrelevant to the conversation and I'm not going to have it here.

It'd be nice if more stuff could be about Star Trek or the issues arising from the episodes, but I realize that's not always going to happen and that things veer off into tangents and long arguments. And that's fine, as long as you're not attacking each other.

That is all.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 12:18pm (UTC -5)
:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vTDnhDfstM
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Flipsider
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 1:14pm (UTC -5)
Sounds more than fair to me. Must be a bit tricky to decide what to delete, sometimes. Lee's post is just complete an insult post, but so many people responded to him, you wouldn't want to delete all those posts.
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PM
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 1:46pm (UTC -5)
Rios is SUPPOSED to get with her. In fact, before they part, looks like they need to have a kid together.

From Screenrant:

"It's worth noting that the medical supplies in La Sirena bear a butterfly-like logo that's similar to the logo of Dr. Ramirez's clinic."

In this case, if the butterfly doesn't flap its wings differently than we all thought it was supposed to, Rios (and maybe even the Federation the way it's 'supposed' to be) may never be able to exist.
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PM
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 1:52pm (UTC -5)
Or.....Dr. Ramirez could have just gotten "Dr. Gillian Taylor"ed info the future w our crew, OR made such an impression on the crew in 2024 that the logos get put on the medical supplies on La Sirena as a tribute to her.
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Flipsider
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 2:01pm (UTC -5)
They'll probably do something stupid like that, yeah. In time travel stories, you can always make it so that whatever the characters just happen to do will be "correct." But, if not done carefully this will just come acrossed as lazy writing; and if the characters were to become aware of that fact, it would lead to completely ridiculous behavior.

This idea was very smartly made fun of in the DS9 Tribbles episode, when Bashir starts to panic after a girl flirts with him: "what if I'm supposed to get with this women and become my own grandfather? If I don't do it, I might never exist!" and O'Brien just rolls his eyes at Bashir.
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Tim M.
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 2:09pm (UTC -5)
Yeah, I'm curious to see how the situation with Dr. Ramirez plays out...lots of directions in which it can go.

Regarding the brain stabilizer thing that Raffi beamed down to Rios. It was a little wonky, but I assumed that it had some relationship to the imagine-the-fix tech from last season...the operator's brain-wave activity is used as a stable pattern to regulate those of the patient, and for reasons, it makes more sense for a doctor to do that. No more weird than how a cortical stimulator is supposed to work...always wonder why on TNG the patients jerked about as if they were being brain-defibrillated.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 2:22pm (UTC -5)
Rios doesn't have to take the doctor into the future or stay behind. He can just find one of the doctors descendants in his time who will probably be a doctor as well an look exactly like her. It's true for Soong and the Romulan housekeeper super spy so why not for her??
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Speculation
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 3:16pm (UTC -5)
What did I just watch.....that is all I can say about this episode

I still think Picard's mother is Agnes/Borg Queen. It isn't a something that they need to stop but it is the "something" that needs to be happen.

Also, I don't think we are going to see a conclusion to season 2. I think it will be a cliff hanger and then resolve in the first episode of season 3.
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TheRealTrent
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 3:35pm (UTC -5)
Jammer said: "The long and the short of it is that Picard feels guilt and pain over what happened to his mother, who was imprisoned by "monsters." What actually had happened was his mother was mentally ill, his father locked her away for her own good, and Picard blamed his father for it."

Can someone elaborate on this, please? Does the episode explain what illness Picard's mother was suffering from? Couldn't she be treated? Why was she locked away? Also, who's the "monsters" that Jammer refers to? The father?

I've stopped watching, but am curious as to how the mother arc is playing out. Thanks.
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Booming
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 3:43pm (UTC -5)
I think the monsters are the mental illness or the fear of the it or deep seated trauma. Her illness looked like schizophrenia or something else that makes you completely delusional.
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Tim M.
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 3:47pm (UTC -5)
Regarding JLP's mother's illness, I still we're still getting an incomplete picture filtered through a child's eyes. So I disagree with Jammer that she was literally "locked away"--it's probably something more metaphorical than that. And the young JLP having a key to open the door to the room in which she is locked away--I also suspect that is metaphorical.

As to the diagnosis, it's hinted that she has some paranoid delusions (fear of persecution, possible hallucinations). Given the family history of Renee also struggling with depression (and as I said above, Picard's knowing statement about how crippling depression can be in a human), I'm going to put on my mental health professional hat (it's my day job) and theorize that JLP's mom may have major depression with psychotic features. It could also be schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder (or even bipolar disorder, type 1) from the little snippets we've been given, so I'm not going to make any bets.
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Tim M.
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 3:49pm (UTC -5)
And I wish there were an "edit" button for the typos (or that I took the time to proofread...but it's easier to blame tech for my laziness...lol).
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EmpressHoshiSato
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 7:17pm (UTC -5)
If the Agent turns out to be Ducane, from the Federation Timeship Relativity, then so be it. But that would be cool and interesting, and not sure the writers have got a plan or seen previous Star Trek movies or shows.
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SlackerInc
Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 10:20pm (UTC -5)
Sounds dreadful.
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Yanks
Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 7:30am (UTC -5)
If I remember correctly, Picard's mom as described by the father, was unwilling to undertake the treatment she needed Jammer.
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Tim M.
Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 10:52am (UTC -5)
@Yanks: I didn't pick up on that aspect, but it does support the notion of JLP's mom being "locked away" in more of a metaphorical sense. I'm sure we'll get more clues before the end of the season.
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Tim M.
Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 10:54am (UTC -5)
I'm also going to bet that the "abusive father" storyline turns out not to be as it seems.
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dave
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:21am (UTC -5)
I think one of the things killing this is the whole "mystery theatre" style of storytelling.

They are dragging out what changed the future, how and why, who fits where, WTF is going on with Q and so on. A more linear story where we knew what was going on would have a shot at keeping people more engaged. This isn't like Disc trying to figure out the mystery of the DMA and who 10C really is.

I think there would be less frustration if there was more clarity on where this is going and what is happening.

The last couple of episodes are likely going to be an utter cluster fuck.
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dave
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:25am (UTC -5)
Further to my last comment (dont we always think of more and wish there was an edit button!).

The story has jumped around and acted like it forgot several things..

Was this about climate change? Haven't heard about that in a while
Renee? Who knows what happened to her
Q's sick? No idea, he has said nothing about it
Soong's cloned daughter and the cure to make her viable? WTF happened with that?

These threads happen then vanish and somehow they will barf it all out in one episode at the end.

I honestly can't understand the rationale of the writing. I can make peace with them trying to modernize it or attract different viewers than all the OG fans like us but at the very least they need good coherent storylines that make sense and lead somewhere. They are alienating the OG and a new young super fan isn't going to hang in there with such convoluted storytelling.
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dave
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:29am (UTC -5)
Tricia Helfer is near 50 now. They should have just made her Picard's mom and then thrown us the amazing moment of re uniting her with Baltar. why not, would have been more fun that some of what they did.
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Bryan
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:30am (UTC -5)
With all due respect, hanging in there when the going gets tough and singing the praises of all the minutiae is what the young super fans do best.
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Brian
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 3:19am (UTC -5)
I tell you, I almost feel like I need to watch it again to see if it makes any more sense but I just can't. It's 46 minutes long and I felt every second of it as though I were having a migraine. I think enduring it again would just make me need professional help.
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PM
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 4:12am (UTC -5)
So is the reason the 24th Century hadn't made much progress in treating the symptoms and underlying causes of schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, manias and/or bipolar disorder the same reason that starships and computer tech in the 32nd Century are only slightly slicker than that of the 22nd and 24th Century (rather than orbs of pure, self-aware energy that can transition easily between galaxies)?
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Tim Miller
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 7:46am (UTC -5)
@Booming

It's spelled "whales".
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Booming
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 8:04am (UTC -5)
No, my good sir. It's still spelled "Wales".

(I have no idea what you are referring to)
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Lizzzi
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 9:49am (UTC -5)
I pretty much agree with all the negative comments about PIC and DISCO, and get the same migraines that others have mentioned. To relieve your headaches, it really helps to go back and watch Star Trek: The Animated Series. Not perfect, but so, so much fun. The stories are creative, make sense within the ST universe, and are great trekkie entertainment. And "Yesteryear" is one of the best ST episodes ever--cartoon or not. TAS has held up well over the years, is not dumbed-down for kids, and is well-worth your viewing time.
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Sven
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 10:07am (UTC -5)
@Brian
"I tell you, I almost feel like I need to watch it again to see if it makes any more sense but I just can't. "

I have. It doesn't. I oddly kind of liked the comatose dreamy psychological part more, but not that much to be honest. But overall it's still as chaotic and contrived (I'm avoiding stupid here) as it looked the first time. I have NEVER ever thought that way about a ST episode, old or new.

"It's 46 minutes long and I felt every second of it as though I were having a migraine. I think enduring it again would just make me need professional help."

If it helps: I still feel fine.
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Rahul
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 11:25am (UTC -5)
@Lizzzi

I couldn't agree more re. TAS. It truly is wonderful and I would also back your suggestion of going back and revisiting these classics (whether or not you have a migraine from watching PIC/DSC). And "Yesteryear" is the best of the TAS episodes -- very poignant and touching. TAS doesn't get the credit it deserves and is often forgotten, it seems to me, when talking classic Trek.
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Gorn With the Wind
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:59pm (UTC -5)
My humble attempts to unfuck the storylines of PIC S2

We start with having character arcs rather than plotty shenanigans.

Picard’s arc: Reckon with traumatic childhood at last and heal the wound that’s driven him to perpetual isolation from others. Gives up the vineyard to be with Crusher.

Seven’s arc: After losing the trauma of her borg implants via alt future, she wants to stay in the 21st century. Torn between duty to her crewmates and her own happiness. Eventually comes back because of Raffi.

Q: Punishes Picard for his season 1 actions by screwing up timeline. Has his powers removed by continuum as a result. Still tries to screw with Renee to foil Picard’s efforts to restore timeline. Picard offers him mercy where he offered Picard penance. (Similar-ish to Deja-Q)

Rios + Raffi: Stay in alternate fascist timeline and get a resistance going or something.

Soong: Save until season 3 or don’t bother

Kore: Save until season 3 or don’t bother

Jurati + Borg Queen: This arc is actually fun and makes sense. Don’t change!

Renee Picard: Is a confident, awesome astronaut until Q gets into her head.

Talinn: Delete this character from any and all seasons

Guinan: ???
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Flipsider
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:30pm (UTC -5)
If I were to try to re-write Picard, I think it'd have to restart from the ground up. I think the concept of it being about Picard dealing with his issues doesn't work. Especially the idea that he is "closed off from his emotions," that just isn't the character as he's been portrayed. He was always portrayed as well adjusted and good at dealing with people. He just preferred to keep a bit of a professional distance with his crewmates, which there's nothing wrong with. And the end of the series, with him finally joining the poker game, shows that he's already decided to grow out of that.

I think the series would have worked better as an examination of the characters around Picard, with Picard himself basically playing the role of an advisor, in a Guinan kind of way.

One thing they really could have extrapolated from was the idea that there would be more androids in Starfleet, and maybe even a race of android people. But instead of the weird way they did it, perhaps they could've been seen working together with Starfleet in a cooperative capacity like the Vulcans. I also would have loved to see an android and vulcan character together on the same show.
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EmpressHoshiSato
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:32pm (UTC -5)
@dave

Agreed. Doctor Baltar and Tricia would have been best.

1 hour before the events above Earth in Star Trek: First Contact, aboard the main Spacedock station overlooking the planet below, in the quarters of Head of the Home Fleet, Admiral Doctor Baltar Picard

Dr. Baltar Picard: "Admiral, with all due respect, this isn't anything to do with the fact he's my son. Captain Picard and the Enterprise should be recalled to Earth! This is the Borg for crying out loud! We should have the most advanced ship in the Fleet here!"
Admiral Hayes: "The decision has been made Picard. Your job is to take command of Spacedock and coordinate with Earth ground defences. You know the system better than anyone. Cerritos out!"

The old Picard sighed.

Woman behind him: "Never would have taken you for someone who would leave the farm for an office job dear."

Baltar Picard turned around and dropped his mug of Earl Grey.

Dr. Baltar Picard: You're...you're alive? That's not possible. Security!

His com-badge failed to respond.

Mrs. Picard: I can't die. When this body's destroyed, my memory and consciousness will be instantly transmitted to a new one. I'll just wake up somewhere else in an identical body. We have adapted.
Dr. Baltar Picard (frantically pressing the button on his desk for Security, but something is jamming communication): You're not my Renee. Who, or what are you?
Mrs. Picard: I am the beginning and the end. I bring order into chaos. We are Borg.
Dr. Baltar Picard: So... now you're telling me... you're a Borg?
Mrs. Picard: Yes. There are more of us out there like me. I was lost in time. Not something your 3 dimensional mind would be able to understand.
Dr. Baltar Picard: A synthetic woman. A robot. That's you? You're the new breed of Borg?
Mrs. Picard: The old breed is still around. They have their uses, in our Collective.
Dr. Baltar Picard: No. I don't believe any of this. Prove it. Prove to me you're a Borg. Right now!
Mrs. Picard: Deep down you've always known there was something different about me, something that didn't quite add up in the usual way. And you believe me because it flatters your ego to believe me -- to believe that you alone among all the people of Earth and your Federation, that you were chosen for my mission.
Dr. Baltar Picard: Your mission?
Mrs. Picard: You knew I wanted access to the Starfleet mainframe. My mission was to compromise Federation Defence systems in preparation for an attack on Earth.
Dr. Baltar Picard (panic rising): How many people know about this? I’m going to call my lawyer. Or Jean Luc! He’s the best in the business.
Mrs. Picard: That wouldn’t be necessary, because in a few hours, no one will be left to charge you with anything.
Dr. Baltar Picard: What are you trying to say?
Mrs. Picard: Humanity’s children are returning home. Today.
Dr. Baltar Picard: Humanity's children? But that means the Borg...

Suddenly, there's the SOUND of sirens. The desk rattles. And beyond the elegant glass window, in the cold void of space, beyond the rallied Starfleet, emerges a giant Cube.
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Gorn With the Wind
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 3:13pm (UTC -5)
@flipsider

You’ll find no disagreement here. Nothing about Picard has felt thematically coherent from the beginning.
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MidshipmanNorris
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 4:14pm (UTC -5)
Booming said:

[No, my good sir. It's still spelled "Wales".

(I have no idea what you are referring to)]

None of us do, mystery person. This is a PSA that you should include the text you’re referring to in reply posts. It’s only logical ;D
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Flipsider
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 4:21pm (UTC -5)
@Gorn With the Wind
Yeah. Well, I just find it a bit depressing... the idea that if you're a bit of private person, there is something wrong with you, and you must have some kind of childhood trauma. I don't think people are that simple.
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Booming
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 4:50pm (UTC -5)
@Flipsider
"Yeah. Well, I just find it a bit depressing... the idea that if you're a bit of private person, there is something wrong with you, and you must have some kind of childhood trauma."
It's easier to write about a deeply traumatized person, than about being a somewhat private person. Don't read too much into it. In season 1 all of them had a trauma. Maybe they thought it was too much, so now only Picard('s) is(are) really traumatized.
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Sigh2000
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:21pm (UTC -5)
@Booming ....I think the whale thing may have come from a post made way back on April 15

"Rios beaming the doctor on the ship was another lol moment. Uh, and the kid Picard's acting... Her presence in this is so forced. With the wale scientist from the voyage home they actually really needed her."

Not that I go around correcting the spelling of others...I just like finding stuff. :)
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Tim M.
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:54pm (UTC -5)
@Sigh2000

"I'm from California. I just whale in outer space." ;)
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Jason R.
Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 7:33pm (UTC -5)
Just watched Rascals again. The 12 year old Picard is more Picard than 80 year old Patrick Stewart.
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dave
Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 12:05am (UTC -5)
@jason

You are right.

I honestly am still surprised Patrick Stewart signed off on this series. he is a smart man I can;t fathom how he thought S1 was good material and S2 was worth his time.

PS - I liked Rascals! Child Guinan was more fun than this series too!
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dave
Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 12:10am (UTC -5)
So what do we have here with our dear Rios.

Did he really just take a woman and her kid to see their technology because he was horny?
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Booming
Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 12:32am (UTC -5)
@Sigh2000
Thanks. Another mystery solved.
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Jason R.
Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 9:19am (UTC -5)
"I honestly am still surprised Patrick Stewart signed off on this series. he is a smart man I can;t fathom how he thought S1 was good material and S2 was worth his time."

Is he though? That is, a smart man? Does he really understand what makes a good story?

I am not sure that we know that either way. Just because he convincingly played a smart man (JLP) doesn't mean he personally is smart let alone has good judgment in terms of story or scripting or directing.

In fact, from what I know on the subject from comments he has made and episodes he has personally been involved in as director, his judgment on such matters is a mixed bag at best.
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Jaxon
Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 1:59pm (UTC -5)
Patrick Stewart's ego would now seem to exceed William Shatner's.

Stewart can't seem to be bothered to play the role of his character anymore.
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Steve McCullagh
Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 2:23am (UTC -5)
Because I didn't immediately recognise Baltar, I spent entirely too long thinking the therapist was Julian Bashir 😄
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Nic
Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 9:18pm (UTC -5)
I'll admit I enjoyed the shock of seeing "Baltar" wearing a Starfleet uniform. Other than that, not much to recommend from this episode. You've all done a good job at pointing out the flaws.

I don't know how much input Stewart had into this retcon of Picard's past, and it really doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is: does it fit with what we already knew and does it make for good drama?

Unfortunately, for me at least, the answer is "no" and "no". I could imagine Picard having a problematic childhood. What I CAN'T imagine is never having effectively bottled it up for all these years. Picard was more emotionally mature than this on TNG. He appreciated the importance of talking about your feelings and knowing yourself. He had a Betazoid counsellor on the Bridge for crying out loud!

The scene where Guinan tries to summon Q was unintentionally hilarious.
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Eric Jensen
Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 6:57am (UTC -5)
Q said in this episode - he did not send them back in time - true.
Q though DID send them to the alternate time line
How do we know it is actually 2024 that there was a "divergence" in time?
It was the Borg queen that said 2024...
Now, was she lying? I don't think so...
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Eric Jensen
Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 9:24am (UTC -5)
Oops wrong page
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Mike
Sun, May 1, 2022, 2:57pm (UTC -5)
This episode felt like a very bad holonovel.
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MarkG
Thu, May 12, 2022, 1:59pm (UTC -5)
Very little science, too much fantasy (magic bottles that summon the Q? WTF). This feels like watching Lost with all the mystery stuff and questions that get some answer only to be the basis for another mystery. This is such a disappointment after the very strong first two episodes.

Silly question: so the Romulans have spies in Earth 2024 helping humanity (why?) even before first contact with the Vulcans?
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Bok R'Mor
Fri, May 13, 2022, 12:15am (UTC -5)
@MarkG

'Very little science, too much fantasy (magic bottles that summon the Q? WTF).'

Agreed. DSC and PIC don't do science - apart from when the writers have a character say 'I like science' - and effectively turning Q into a genie in a bottle is sadly par for the course from these writers and producers.
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Austin
Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 11:16pm (UTC -5)
I have to agree with your point on giving a 21st century doctor a device from the 25th century. Really? That’s like asking a doctor from the 1500s to read an EKG. “Uh, I just do bloodletting…” So many stupid mistakes in these plots but that one jumped out at me. Another 1 star episode from me. I think Jammer is giving an automatic star just because Patrick Stewart is in it, which is not a terrible handicap. But when one of the Greatest Of All Time can’t salvage this train wreck, you know there’s a deeper problem at hand.
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P'kard
Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 3:46am (UTC -5)
So the Watcher is just a romulan spy? They played it up like she was on par with Q. I didn't really get that.

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