“Jinaal”

Who else cheered when Rayner dressed down Tilly for him not having actually given her permission to speak freely? ALL of us? Probably all of us.

Oh, but then a little while later Tilly has to proudly disregard her orders and go and do it again because she just cannot control herself or behave professionally, and listening to her superiors is optional for her as a Starfleet officer. Are we supposed to cheer? I think the show expects us to cheer.
Because shucks, Tilly is RIGHT, isn't she? Rayner's not being emotionally sensitive, and anyone who isn't being emotionally sensitive is wrong! Anyone not being emotionally sensitive must be called out at all times, and the circumstances and the power relationships do not matter, damn it all!

You know what? It's not her character's fault. She serves under, and learned from, Michael Burnham.

Hey Discovery, if you had to have this moment . . . if you couldn't control yourself and instead write this conflict-of-ship-cultures-and-command-styles to play out like a Riker-Jellico thing, which would have been doing it with maturity and showing a much more interesting conflict dynamic to boot . . . you could have at least included a scene of Tilly scrubbing the shuttlebay deck plating by hand at the end of the episode as discipline, muttering to herself how it was worth it because at least she got Rayner to listen to her point.

. . .

Hey Saru, don't tell your woman her business. She's the president of an entire planet and has been for a few terms, what office have you ever been elected to? Exactly. Let her manage her own political career and the business of wooing her electorate, because she obviously knows how to.

I understand the writers want to manufacture some drama because it cannot be all smooth sailing for them as a couple but you don't do that by turning one of them into an idiot. Saru has never been an idiot. He's not a dumb teenager who would open his mouth before failing to weigh and dismiss the idea of doing so on this topic. Shoddy writing.

I had to pause this scene three times to get through it because of how spectacularly bad it was that it was happening at all.

. . .

It occurs to me that through the "Saru is an ambassador now" plot, we may get our first proper look in Star Trek at the ongoing business of the Federation . . . federating. You know, being a functioning Federation and what that entails. That could be neat. That is, if they don't treat it as pat, and if they don't otherwise mess it up.

. . .

No Owo or Detmer (only so much budget I guess), but we get Pollard (even if it's just for a quick scene) and Reno. I guess Bryce really did leave the show at the end of last season when he didn't leave the galaxy with Discovery. And we learned that Nilsson transferred to Voyager, so we probably won't be seeing her again either.

Wonder if they would have tried to work some of them into the episodes more if they knew while filming this was going to be the last season.

. . .

Smart choice giving the episode's acting showcase to Wilson Cruz as the host of the dead trill. He can handle it, and oh my god, could you imagine if they had given it to Wiseman?

. . .

There needs to be a a creature for Michael and Book to shoot phasers at in front of the clue, because this is Discovery. And Discovery's gotta be Discovery. Oh but this one has the ability to cloak itself so they can save money on the CGI by not showing it all the time. Where is it hiding? They can't see it! And it's not like they have highly sophisticated tricordercombadges pinned to their chests, which I'm sure could tag the creatures in a nanosecond. No! Let's rely on our eyes!

. . .

"I had to see what you would do when confronted by a lifeform different from your own. Would you just see an enemy?" Bro, they're literally Starfleet. You met Picard. Dominion War or not, the existence of Section 31 or not, Starfleet is Starfleet and they have one single mission statement: "To seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldy go where no one has gone before." Again, weak writing. Only a terrible writer would a) think this is clever, and b) miss how inappropriate it is in the setting.

. . .

So what was good about this episode?

Ummm . . .

The Ferengi bartender poured Tilly a Slug-o-Cola?

Guys, how do you still struggle with that this show has been from the beginning??! It's season number 5! Even though this show probably tries to pander to women, I have stopped watching after season 3 and I will never watch 4,5 or rewatch 1,2 or 3. You don't have to suffer. Enjoy the spring, enjoy being with your kids, prepare a nice surprise for your wive/husband. Save yourself!

@Jeffrey's tube
"like a Riker-Jellico thing, which would have been doing it with maturity"
What show did you watch? Riker behaved like a total prick. Or as Rich Evans from RLM put it:"Do your fucking job, Riker!

The dialogue really has not improved. “This guy really works out” is such an evil ex­am­ple of con­tem­por­ary col­lo­quia­lism that it hurts my sto­mach. And I could de­fi­ni­te­ly have done with­out all that teen re­la­tion­ship drama.

In some way, the Discovery has now become USS Cabot from the worst of all Short Treks, “The Trou­ble with Ed­­ward”: Ever­one hangs out giggling with others, but one guy is left out of the loop. Now, in that Short Trek, Ed­­ward was a true dick and also some­what in­com­pe­tent, while this epis­ode makes clear that Reyner is neither, but the crew acts un­pro­fes­sion­ally in both cases by shun­ning some­one who has a dif­fe­rent ap­proach to things.

Perhaps, my frustration with Discovery is best il­lus­trat­ed by Tilly’s re­mark “Ana­lyzing them is not the same as con­nect­ing with them”. The credo of this show is in­deed that emo­tions trump ra­tio­nali­ty, and this is not where I like Star Trek to go. In more than one way, Rey­ner ist a re­lict from bet­ter days.

About the plot, there isn’t much to say save there was not much of it. We got the next bit of the trea­sure hunt (some co­or­di­na­tes ob­tain­ed off­screen), and we know that the trea­sure hunt is for no­thing ex­cept to create the plot of the sea­son — Janaal is the Game Mas­ter who sends the others on a trip whose de­sti­na­tion he knows but does not re­veal. That’s disappointing.

The most important part was the end, when Honey Bunny at­tach­ed some kind of viri­­di­um patch to Adira, to short­cut her trea­sure hunt and profit from Dis­cove­ry’s pro­gress. The cult-like scene im­me­di­ate­ly before that I found deeply dis­tur­bing, it re­minds me to the be­ha­vi­our found in sect members.

There were many interpersonal scenes that seemed like empty dra­ma. At this point, I have no inter­est in any of the cha­rac­ters of the show, may­be with the exception of Honey Bunny. Saru has been mostly destroyed in S2 und 3, Tilly also, and for the rest I never had much sym­pathy; even Jett Reno was less funny than usual. I can­not take Adira se­rious­ly, as she be­ha­ves like a child de­spite her mul­ti­ple life me­mo­ries (in­clud­ing an Ad­miral, so there should be some order and structure to her thought). Ezri Dax was much bet­ter written.

So, that was a pretty empty episode, and my optimism after last week’s outing has grown stale.

@Booming Yeah, season 3 was the breaking point for me as well. After that, you are either a completist or the exact target audience for these shows, and I've come to find that i am neither.


I do like reading the reviews and comments though.

Without knowing much about her first officer, Burnham forced him into a situation that he was clearly uncomfortable with so as to force a connection between him and the crew. It doesn't work that way.

When I was young, my father married a woman who had two children from an earlier relationship. On the two times I visited him, I was expected to act as a brother to these two. There was no lead-up to this, no getting to know them. Here, I am for a week, and I am expected to take on a role that neither myself nor the children were prepared for. It didn't work and I never developed a relationship with either of them.

It was implied in the ending narration that Rayner had failed to form a connection with the crew. No kidding. It was doomed from the get-go.

We were given more of a definite timeframe for when the clues were laid down and for when the Romulan science ship might have disappeared. It was during the Dominion War (2373-2375).

This episode was not, in my opinion, as good as the first two. It was weight down with Discovery tropes.

"This guy works out"
Ummm... 800 years ago? The consciousness was 800 years old.

Tilly isnt wrong though. "Connecting with them isnt the same as analyzing them"
This is not an argument about emotion vs rationality. Raynor would have let that settlement be destroyed if it wasn't for Michael, 2 episodes ago.

Maybe you have forgotten, but in The Chase - The Klingons and the Cardassians were aghast at the idea of being "related". Starfleet is Starfleet, but the question is how to get different species to cooperate.

I read these comments and they arent reactions to the episode. There is inherent dislike and already minds have already been made up. It is ironic seeing the lack of tolerance here.

For better or worse, that was the most Discovery of Discovery episodes - in that it showed exactly the kind of series Michelle Paradise wants it to be. Four different plots were woven around the idea that listening to others and emotional connection is the most central thing.

My issue is it also showcased how the "right way to be" for the main characters was as conflict-averse as possible. It might make for an emotionally-healthy person, but it makes for shitty drama in an episode that's supposed to be all about drama.

I guess the A-plot here is Michael and Book going around Trill, with Culber possessed by Jinaal. While it did have a central Trekkian message in the end, none of this quite gelled right to me. Wilson Cruz was playing Jinaal in such a way that I kept expecting something nefarious, which was never (really) played out. And the setup for the "test" was so contrived (how did he know those beasts would be there 800 years later?) that he felt more like a video game NPC than a real character. Having Book be stung by the thing, which amounted to absolutely nothing, was also a bit of a cheap move.

Then there's the breakup of Adira and Gray - such as it was. The "breakup" scene showcases how Discovery's supposedly "adult" handling of drama wrecks the tension by eliminating potential sources of conflict. A good breakup is as drama-free as possible, but that doesn't make for good television. On TV, we want to see the sparks fly. I understand this wouldn't fit thematically with the episode, but that presents the option for a reconciliation later on down the line.

And as a quick aside, when will the writers remember that Adira is actually joined to a symbiont again? I was excited for a second when they called her "Tal," but nope, it's never mentioned—not even by the Trill. I don't understand why they crafted this elaborate backstory for her in Season 3, only never to use it again.

The Saru/T'Rina "drama" is better, but here, they get in the mildest of spats, Saru immediately apologizes, and everything is fine. Again, the story seemed to be promising a much bigger snafu than what was delivered. I didn't have high expectations for a secondary plot like this, but I expected it to go somewhere.

Finally, there's Rayner getting his sea legs as XO, and pissing off most of the crew. This was probably my favorite section, insofar as there was real conflict and tension, and Rayner was allowed to make mistakes, which presumably will lead to an arc where he eventually gains the trust of the crew. I hope he only meets the "Discovery mindset" halfway here, and the crew benefits from his more military-like approach as well because Tilly's admonishment that Rayner should really just be friends with the crew in order to have their respect is, again, very sledgehammer.

Then it all ends with Gray's monologue, clobbering you over the head with the central message if you somehow missed the subtext - there is only one right way to do being a person, and that's to be open and emotionally available.

This may be right in real life, but it's not what I want to see on the screen. I wonder what these writers would do with a character like Worf, Odo, or O'Brien sometimes.

@Burke
It's kind of like those medieval monks flogging themselves. It's hard to look away :)

Imagine watching TNG and thinking Troi should be the ethos of an entire new flagship series and crew. Apparently Paradise's only tv writing before Disco showrunner was a CW Vampire Diaries spinoff. It's all making sense now.

If they make Rayner's "arc" culminate in him embracing his feelings, "connecting", and becoming Discofied by the crew, I'll just have to laugh.

Week 1 of 6 - reporting in to confirm I have not watched this episode (or the previous).

The experiment continues without incident.

A quick glance at the comments would suggest this was another woeful entry in the Discovery canon. I am glad to have spared myself the frustration of watching it.

Overall, I am enjoying this mode of not-watching Discovery.

As mentioned previously, I shall be back for the penultimate episode (where All Is Revealed) and pay close attention to the recap.

To the rest of you - thank you for your service.

Contrary to most here, it seems, I enjoy a good chunk of Disco's action scenes. But even for my standards, the action scene with Book and Michael was the most ridiculous one I have seen from any Trek show. They should have been dead 5 times over. Geez...

Otherwise, nothing more than a passable episode.

Ok Cletus, think it through, think it through. You are almost there.

People here blame Paradise for the writing. That is what she has always done during her career. Why do you think Paramount hired her?! Because they wanted it that way. Here is the plan. Next step: hate Paramount, then all companies, then capitalism! Anybody??

Let's listen to what Captain Picard recommends
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPY5P0TaC4k

Well I'll be - that was an enjoyable hour of Trek!

Three wonderful stars.

Even the hook at the end was pretty cool :)

* * *

This was a filler episode. I didn't find it particularly exciting.

PROS:

[1] I loved how President T'Rina handled her conflict with Saru. She's clearly the mature, experienced adult in the room. I'd like to see more characters on Discovery deal with conflict like her. Unfortunately, that might mean the writers would have to work on building out the mission storyline. On the flip side, Saru's initial approach to T'Rina on handling the potential problem looks like it was written for a high school drama.

CONS:

[a] We continue with another episode of, "Struggles with Silly Solutions"! Burnham 'deduces' that "our phasers made us seem like a threat" to the animals. So of course the animals would recognize what it means to put those away, which somehow changes their mind from blocking off communication with Book. Puh-lease.

[b] This Jinaal guy knows that these cloaked spider animals will still be nesting in the same place 800 years later? (@Karl Zimmerman - spot on with this)

[c] I'm not a fan on watching Tilly give leadership advice to Rayner. She's still a few years out of being a cadet, and Rayner has demonstrated his capabilities not just in rank but in accolades and sheer number of years. He knows what works for him. If Tilly really HAD to have taught Rayner something (as the writers demanded), I'm sure it could have taken another form, like "let me tell you something about this crew and what works for them." Nothing Tilly said was wrong per se, but it seemed forced, quick for Tilly to judge, and severely out of line for the command structure. (@Jeffrey's Tube - couldn't agree with you more on the initial dressing down!) And I know we're only three episodes in, but Rayner has clearly been established as a no-nonsense guy. If the writer wanted to humanize him, then the writers must find a way to do it without abandoning this quality. For him to allow Tilly to have the last word both literally and symbolically does not seem right.

OTHER THOUGHTS:

[i] Funny quotes:
--"...'eurudite' Captain Saru?"
--"Wow. This guy really works out."

[ii] As I was watching Burnham reflect with Culber in the bar, I realized how little I see of Burnham's Vulcan training in her. I suppose I haven't seen it for a couple of seasons. That's a character trait I found fascinating when she was first introduced, and I miss it. Imagine my surprise when I see Burnham engaged in Vulcan meditation during the closing sequences.

[iii] I can't shake the feeling like Gray's approach to the break-up conversation was to manipulate Adira into it. The first half of the conversation was fine, but he could have been more straightforward at the end there.

[iv] We're never gonna get proper utilization of the supporting crew, are we? Characters like Rhys are just gonna be thrown to the sidelines.

@Jeffrey's Tube - I do like the prospect of seeing the Federation itself in action, now that you mention it.

@Cletus - valid point on Paramount choosing to hire Paradise.

Of all the things I can say about this week's episode, I laughed out loud when Rayner only gave the bridge crew 20 words or less. Not sure if that was unintended meta commentary on how underdeveloped these characters are, but it tickled me regardless.

Of course, Disco being Disco we all know Rayner will eventually be forced to accept, appreciate and embrace the wisdom of Michael Burnham who is always right because she is Burnham. But for now, I enjoy him sticking out like a sore thumb.

Ever since someone pointed it out here, you can't unsee or unhear it: Tilly and Adira are written and played as the same character. There's no discernible difference between their performances. One nervous, nerdy chatterbox per ship is enough... And we already have Paul Stamets.

The emotional break up between Adira and Gray had all the emotional impact of reading a grocery list. The fact that Gray continues to speak like your average vapid valley girl doesn't help matters. Draw on all the spots you want, that accent makes him sound like he's late for his shift at Jamba.

The closing talk with Burnham and Culber echoed the conversation Kathryn Janeway and Harry Kim had whenever poor, dumb Harry got himself killed. Like in Emanations when she gave him a few days off to reflect on coming back from the dead. Or in Deadlock when she simply told him 'weird is a part of the job'.

I liked Wilson Cruz getting the chance to stretch as an actor. He remains one of the strengths of the show, even when he's playing, well... Not sure who or what Jinaal was supposed to be.

As for the actual story :-) It's a typical Discovery puzzle box story. Clues. Cool looking fight scene. Some more clues. Cookie cutter stuff. Here's hoping the ultimate answer won't be a let down.

I *knew* I made the right decision to skip this season entirely! I'm finally free! I want to thank all of you for being my canary in the coal mine.
I just cannot stand this show and its malignant narcacism. Why must it constantly throw in better characters who act with more dignity than the main cast, only to have them smacked down and belittled every season? What we need is a sixth season where Rayner, Lorca, Pike, Leland, Vance and Tarka team up and get their revenge.

Benjamin, heh that would be a brilliant roster. Interesting competent characters who could generate drama and conflict organically with their strong personalities instead of it being artificially contrived. Oh well.
Not to derail thread but I do hope SNW at least gets 5 seasons as well, certainly more deserving of it than disco.

The writers of this show don't understand the Trill. They think the symbiont is just a biological flash drive. They have no concept of what a "joined being" is, or that the "Adira Tal" we are following is in fact neither Adira nor Tal, but effectively a third consciousness created by the melding of Adira AND Tal, being, together, more and different than either of them are separately. Instead we get an Adira Tal who is just Adira, who can rifle through memories stored on Tal at their (Adira's) leisure. Tal, meanwhile, must be considered held hostage inside Adira, no doubt screaming in frustration at the imprisonment.

. . .

But I'll speak up for the writers on the "nest being where it is 800 years later" thing.

There are many species on Earth that nest in the same places over generations. Seabirds, for one. Jinaal mentioned he extensively studied these creatures. For large carnivores it seems like that would be harder, but again, on Earth, there are many species for which certain behaviors that would seem to be an evolutionary disadvantage are "hardwired" into them. Consider salmon or sea turtles. Perhaps these Trill creatures will fight to the death to return and lay eggs at the exact breeding spot they spawned from, so that's how he knew there would be a nest there even 800 years later.

I mean you can't account for the possibility of a volcano erupting and covering the entire area in pyroclastic flows, but you never can, can you.

Similarly, I can give the writers the whole "the creatures feel we are not being hostile because we put away our phasers and now Book can connect with them." This is not Earth life. This is Trill. The planet that evolved the symbionts, and the planet where the sapient species figured out that they could bond with the symbionts in such a unique way. These creatures and the Trill and symbionts are all descended from the same evolutionary tree far back enough. So enough of something could have carried through that it would manifest in the creatures like this.

We have no idea what the rest of Trill life is like. Perhaps all Trill life has an uncanny ability to sense and understand things about each other, or something.

The way Rayner is being treated is shameful. It reminds me of the way a bunch of 11-year-olds would treat a new kid in school. He’s not one of them, so he must be stupid and useless. Here’s what has happened so far.

He’s introduced to Burnham by Vance, supposedly an old friend, with a sarcastic “Why don’t you try working together?” This sets the stage for Burnham to be suspicious of him, and on their mission his need for mission-completion does seem a little too strong. However, when convinced, he cooperates commendably.
He’s called on the carpet by Starfleet Command about the avalanche, which everyone agrees he didn’t cause, because he “inspired Moll and L’Ak.” This is downright disgusting, and he’s absolutely right that it’s political and the outcome was foreordained. Burnham rolls her eyes at him and Vance shows no patience or support for his sensible arguments. Both President Rillak and Adm. Vance (whom I’m liking less this year) inform him that “the world has changed,” whatever that means.
Burnham tells him that “the world is bigger than our own corner of it.” She, a former traitor and warmonger who has been a captain for one year, is sure that Rayner, a highly decorated captain for 30 years, “has things to learn.”
When Burnham and Saru get in trouble and Tilly and Adira can’t figure out how to help them, Rayner’s offer of help is rebuffed by Tilly’s patronizing voice with her hand pushed toward him: “This is a science problem.” Luckily for everybody, Raynor’s desire to help with the mission overpowers her childishness and he literally saves Burnham’s and Saru’s lives. When Tilly acknowledges this, Burnham is obviously stunned.
Burnham offers Raynor the First Officer chair as giving him a “second chance” like she had - although Raynor never betrayed his captain or Starfleet.
Burnham insists that he meet the crew one-on-one, and Tilly appoints herself his babysitter (and treats him like a baby too). She constantly makes faces about him to the crew as they come and go, and then yells at him at the end. When he explains his (admittedly strict) attitude toward crew relations, she goes back to treating him like a schoolchild, then walks off in a huff, still making faces.

At one point Raynor says, “I always tell my crew: Get out of your head” [and just get the job done]. THIS is what he’s being punished for in Discoveryland. They have no interest in adjusting to him; HE must do it all.

Can you all PLEASE EXPLSIN what you have against the show. I LOVE THE SHOW AND TGEY NEED TO DLSAVE AND EXTEND IT!! It usually has exploration and discovery with new aliens especially last season was a masterpiece and season 3 was mostly great. What do people want from this show?

@Leif

Umm...people HAVE explained in great depth their issues with this show. Just, uh, look above?

Unlike many of the previous commenters, I really enjoyed the episode: Wilson Cruz was fantastic taking on another character; there were intriguing dynamics between both T’Rina and Saru, and Tilly and Rayne, trying to navigate their respective positions and relationships; and the message about respecting unique lifeforms was much appreciated, and very much in the spirit of Trek.

The understanding/treatment of Trills strained a bit of credulity, and the Adira-Gray storyline was rather dull (They were still in a relationship? Had not given that one thought in more than two years, and, reflecting back on Season Four, I cannot point out a specific thing either character did), but, otherwise, a very good outing.

I feel like a lot of you really, REALLY liked Captain Jellico. Take that as you will.

Hey @Leif,

The show doesn’t feel like an adult show. It feels like a teenager’s show trying to act like an adult show with an adult ‘skin’ on it. (I don’t know if I’m going to second-guess myself for making this simplistic statement later on… maybe it’s because I’ve just learned that the showrunner and writer, Paradise, is primarily known for a CW drama.)

There are things I love about Discovery:
-- Seasons 1 and 2 generally
-- The Terran empire and Section 31 storylines
-- The effort to dream up new technology
-- Bringing the Star Trek universe far into the future and making a daring effort to world-build (or universe-build)
-- Making the effort to dream up very unusual, unique conflicts on incredible scales
-- Production value is fantastic

Here are some things I want from Discovery:
-- SOPHISTICATED WRITING. Dialogue often plays out simplistically for me, and while I’m a big proponent of character development and the emotional exposition that goes along with that, the simplistic dialogue and approach to situations make the characters sound single-minded, overly emotional, melodramatic, and even childish. There’s a scene I particularly loathe from s04e12, “Species Ten-C”, where Saru educates Burnham on yelling to relieve stress. You’re telling me these two ultra high-achieving individuals haven’t yet figured out their own ways on how to deal with stress? Maybe on its own, the scene could work, but taken in a sea of what I perceive to be consistently bad writing… watching it frustrated me. I don’t think Discovery started off this way, but I very much feel this point in recent seasons.
-- IMPROVE PACING WITH REGARDS TO SEASON-LONG STORY ARCS. Most arcs don’t deserve to be season long. The writers simply don’t have enough content to warrant most of their end-of-the-universe scenarios. Pacing sometimes feel slow and sluggish. Either increase quality content or just take a complete break from the story arc every few episodes.
-- BRING BACK AN APPROPRIATE ENSEMBLE CAST. Part of what I’ve realized that I love about the other Star Trek shows are their ensemble crews. While the writers and producers realized there were crowd favorites, supporting characters would all get their own set of storylines at one point or another (mostly). In Disco, almost everything has to be connected to Burnham. I’m sure Sonequa’s shoulders are tired from carrying the show. And since I already find the writing unsophisticated, Sonequa gets the brunt of carrying along unsophisticated dialogue.
-- TRY TO DO BETTER AT ADHERING TO ESTABLISHED NORMS. This point is very much a personal preference compared to the three above which I see are more appropriate literary critiques (as far as an unsophisticated literary consumer such as myself can claim). There aren’t too many examples I can remember from memory on this point, but this most recent episode of Tilly dressing down Rayner so frequently rubs me the wrong way. It’s not justified nor is it done in a way that respects Rayner’s position as Commander and former Captain.

I feel like I’m missing a couple other points, but that’s all I’ve got for you right now. I hope this helps to answer your question. 🙂

@voxymandias - "I feel like a lot of you really, REALLY liked Captain Jellico. Take that as you will."
→ Haha - I feel like I might be among the folks this comment is for? Here's my take on it. The Enterprise crew made an effort to adhere to Jellico's changes and demands. If I recall correctly, the first time anyone raised their voice at him was when Riker realized Jellico wasn't going to try to recover Picard. On Discovery, no one's really yet had first-hand experience to see how Rayner will act and interact (with the exception of him potentially sacrificing that settlement on the desert planet... something I'm not particularly thrilled with, but on the other hand, he very clearly understood Dr. Kovich's orders). Tilly spent maybe up to a few hours with Rayner and has yet to develop any kind of appropriate level of rapport to justifiably raise her voice at him.

Possibly I'm one of the targets of voxymandias too. But I'm no big fan of Jellico. I do think he was always going to rescue Picard and his mistake was to not reassure the crew of that. A single sentence would have done it.

But Jelllico was assigned to the Enterprise by Starfleet, and was accepted unquestioningly by her crew despite their discomfort with him. They were a mature, professional group. Rayner was hand-selected by Burnham almost like rescuing a stray dog. She barely introduced him to the crew before leaving and expected him to do all the work of integrating himself with a very unprofessional crew. Tilly, the least professional of all of them, was the absolute worst person to deal with him.

Can you imagine what would have happened if Geordi, for instance, had starting making faces about Capt. Jellico? Riker would have swatted him down like a fly, regardless of his own feelings about the man. Rayner had no one to stand up for him. He certainly did act like a jerk, but Tilly could have handled it a LOT better. Of course, she's not even really part of the crew any more, is she?

My point wasn't so much whether Rayner is a good guy or a bad guy, but the way he's presented by the writing is very biased, as someone who doesn't adhere to the principles of the show (emotion over all). The actor (who is excellent) is showing a much more balanced view of him, and I expect he'll bend in coming episodes, but I'd like to see the crew bend toward him, too.

Remember how Tilly was complaining that her students weren't understanding how to be part of a team? I'd like to see her learn from Rayner that putting one's emotions aside to get a common task done is a powerful way to build a team.

Also, about that "you have to earn respect" line. Sure, that's true for what we might call personal respect, but there's also social respect: I don't let my dog poop on your lawn just because I don't know you. Not to mention the built-in expectation of respect demanded by a quasi-military organization like Starfleet.

The Enterprise crew started from a position of respect for Jellico, and even when they violently disagreed with him and felt left out, there was no eye-rolling and patronizing tone of voice. That's what's missing from the Discovery crew.

Unlike the the previous two episodes, "Jinaal" is ABOUT things. Unfortunately, it's about really trivial things told stupidly. And so I've nothing substantial to say about it either. Now here are some jokes:

Adira: "Do I look okay? Please say I look okay."
Reno: "You look great, kid...but how much cheesecake have you had?"

- Aw yee, finally someone told Tilly to STFU...albeit in most professional way possible.

- Glad they finally gave Cruz something to do, but was it really necessary for him to be possessed by Harvey Fierstein?

- Denizens of the 32nd century are so spoiled by their technology that they'd sooner atomize and re-atomize someone than make the effort of climbing a few stairs

- Is it just me or would a married couple like T'Rina and Saru voting on the same council be seen as a conflict of interest, or at least that T'Rina gets an extra vote?


Gray: "Yeah, breaking up is definitely the right thing."
Guardian Xi: "Come hither, pool boy! The water is getting cold!"

And I dunno whether to be impressed or just sad that Rayner knows more about the bridge crew after 30 seconds than the audience does after 5 season with them.

Gosh, if I used the "block user" function for anyone who is just bitching about Discovery's existence I would be looking at nearly a blank page.

Jesus, you hate it, fine. Go watch some other things and comment there. Why do we have to come here and just get bombarded with people shitting all over it. If you don't like it, don't eat it. You aren't kids being forced to eat something that makes you ill.

part 2 of my rant

THIS ISN'T THE STAR TREK YOU GREW UP ON AND LOVED AND NEVER WILL BE. Its time to stop being mad about that.

There are 600+ hours of episodes and movies to watch from TOS to the Enterprise era. I think what I watched for all those years is much better than Discovery now. But FFS I can still watch it and critique and think about it and not just BE MAD IT EXISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave, sure I dump on disco, but I wouldn't say it's all bad. Saru is a solid character, s1 had impressive ambition with the lorca twist, the jump to 32nd cent was a bold idea, s2 gave us Pike, there's a few good standalone scifi plots scattered throughout its run, etc. That's why I keep watching it - sometimes a little gem pops up (right now my hope hangs on Rayner and some interesting ending to this silly The Amazing Race: Space Edition caper - seriously the Trill guy giving the riddle instantly made me think of that)

But that's all dragged down and eclipsed by the negatives often cited here. Nobody wants a rehash, all 5 classic trek shows came from very different angles and premises, but they still had shared connective tissue. Even nutrek can do it with something like SNW. Disco just is this weird little satellite where writers seem insistent on making it Star Wars + Grey's Anatomy. Ostensibly this was to expand the fanbase, but that hasn't worked and yet they keep doubling down season after season (you think the CW melodrama of disco is bad, can you imagine the upcoming SF academy series? Oy vey)

@dave,

It's your choice to be here. There are safe spaces for Trek fans elsewhere that will heavily moderate and censor critical voices.

@Cletus

"(you think the CW melodrama of disco is bad, can you imagine the upcoming SF academy series? Oy vey)"

I struggle to believe this will actually see the light of day.

@The Queen
"The Enterprise crew started from a position of respect for Jellico, and even when they violently disagreed with him and felt left out, there was no eye-rolling and patronizing tone of voice."
Pardon? Maybe rewatch that scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTiYrARlsc

@Booming - "'The Enterprise crew started from a position of respect for Jellico, and even when they violently disagreed with him and felt left out, there was no eye-rolling and patronizing tone of voice.' Pardon? Maybe rewatch that scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTiYrARlsc"

→ In that particular scene, Jellico allows for both of them to "drop the ranks." He's giving permission for both of them to be angry with each other (which, as much as I dislike the guy, is probably a good thing for him to do in allowing Riker to vent).

Perhaps an argument for disagreeing with @The Queen could be made during the scene where Riker and Jellico outright yell at each other over whether to recover Picard. But with Riker's responsibility as First Officer, who states it's his duty is to voice disagreement with the Captain when he deems it appropriate, I could not definitively say he crossed a line.

But I'm going to guess that @The Queen is referring to a few scenes preceding the one you pointed out.
-- In Ten Forward, Riker updates Jellico on a request to change watch rotations. After Riker's explanation, Jellico asks twice about the delay before ordering the change, to which Riker immediately complies without complaint. (I'm giving some latitude to Riker's slight-yet-visible annoyance as a way to communicate his feelings to the audience.)
-- Troi professionally tries to discuss how Jellico's approach may have negative consequences, but he brushes her off, telling her to handle it herself.
-- Geordi and Riker vent to each other how difficult it has been with Jellico making ship-wide changes but Riker acknowledging that he will listen to no one. We don't really see either of them fight Jellico on operational tasks after that.
-- Riker takes Jellico's condescending tone with regards to menial tasks such as removing the goldfish from Picard's office or not having updated Jellico that a probe was sent out.

Essentially, I continue to believe the Enterprise crew went about their dealing with Jellico in a professional manner.

DSC can be so insufferable at times. This time it goes way overboard with all this BS about "life is a journey", connexions, "finding answers" -- just vacuous crap to make it seem like they've actually produced a worthy episode when in fact everything is so patly resolved. There's a lot of padding here in a pretty thin plot, which comes from stretching out 1 or 2 classic Trek episodes over a 10-episode season.

Big fan of Rayner and reminds me of Jellico, shaking up a soft, emotionally fragile crew. And I can't stand Tilly -- just so annoying and insubordinate. Rayner is pragmatic, wants to get down to business and is able to assess when time's being wasted. Loved how he initially and rightly smacked Tilly down. But of course DSC will make him learn from Tilly. Burnham will eventually smack him down, perhaps humiliate him, and he'll die unceremoniously.

As for Saru and T'Rina -- this is another veiled way at showing how the man has to apologize and that he doesn't understand relationships. But at least T'Rina just quickly accepts the apology and moves on. I'm wondering what Saru's arc is going to contribute to this season. Is it about more dealings with Vulcan purists and the relationship? Not interested.

I like the actor playing Dr. Culber and it was good to see him as Jinaal ("Facets") and not the usual emotional doctor. Of course Burnham and Booker would pass the test and get the next piece of the puzzle. At least there was some deception on Jinaal's part about the cloaking monster (reminds of the monster in "Darmok"). But please no more action scenes with Burnham and Booker.

The Adira/Gray stuff was also forgettable. But these 2 are good at playing aliens at least -- particularly Gray. But who can honestly care about their story?

2 stars for "Jinaal" -- would have been passable without hammering us over the head with the meaningless epilogue. DSC can come up with the occasional worthwhile episode but you have to struggle through so much garbage to get to it. I did like making use of a classic Trek idea like in "Facets" for the Bix symbiont's knowledge and giving Culber a different character to play. But this is otherwise pure and simple mediocrity. DSC's best season was its 4th with its fairly original sci-fi but S5 could well be its worst.

@Chris W
Sure, no comparison to the USS Sensitivity but I was in the military and there are certain behaviors in that scene by Riker that are borderline. When Jellico enters Riker doesn't get up, he doesn't even take he legs down, even though Jellico is his command officer. It is also quite disrespectful to say to your captain "Then ask me." and finally that "You're welcome." Taken together it borders on disrespect towards a superior officer.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/889

In that other scene you mentioned that line has been crossed. Riker is openly insubordinate and basically questions Jellico's ability to command in front of another bridge officer. That is close to a court martial. Being relieved of duty is really serious.

It is one thing if officers talk amongst each other but towards your commanding officer...

Militaries take these things very seriously because respect for a superior officer, especially the one in command, is essential for the functioning of a military. Probably the most important thing.

@Booming - RE: https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-dsc/s5/jinaal.php#comment-116682

→ That's really interesting! Good to have present-day military context.

A question about the scene in Riker's quarters: Even with Riker currently being relieved of duty and even with Jellico's "drop the ranks" comment, would Riker's follow-ups ("then ask me"; "you're welcome") all still be considered not allowed? When I hear "drop the ranks", I essentially hear "we can speak freely", and to me, Riker spoke back to Jellico in the same manner in which Jellico started the conversation. I suppose Riker got in some extra pokes. Would you say that if we applied present-day military decorum to that conversation, Riker would still be in the wrong?

Separately, how do you evaluate Jellico's treatment to the crew and his decisions prior to having to deal with the Picard situation?

@ Chris W

"There are things I love about Discovery:"
"The Terran empire and Section 31 storylines"

Those are two of things I most dislike about Discovery. The mirror universe was never meant to be taken seriously, it was an excuse to put the actors in skimpy outfits and let them play a different role, for audience amusement. Discovery taking it so seriously felt like taking The Edo from TNG's Season 1 and making a half season long arc about them.

Section 31 was definitely meant to be taken seriously but IMHO was best used sparingly. I liked S2 of Discovery IN SPITE of the S31 story, not because of it. S2 worked for me because of Pike's character and of course it gave us the SNW spinoff that's actually watchable.

I appreciate when Discovery and Picard crib from Classic Trek as a homage. The little references scattered throughout episodes, this last one to the Bynars for instance, or Picard shoehorning in the Punk Rocker from Star Trek IV, those things I like.

What I don't like is when they wholesale rip off old ideas, and/or old dialogue verbatim. I think this is the second time Discovery has used the Trill ritual, which was a one-off in DS9, and in DS9 was done for character development rather than plot advancement.

I feel like the writers of Discovery and Picard sketch 'beginning' and 'end' out on a whiteboard, then turn it over to Trek nerds to fill in as much of the middle story as possible with existing Trek canon.

It's very definitely teenage writing as you say. The Big Reveal™ at the end, where the Bad Girl infiltrated the Trill, that was THROUGHLY UNEARNED. Once again, the writers are lazy, they think we're stupid, and they don't trust that we'll come back next week unless there's A Big Twist™ with Cliffhanger at the end of every single episode.

I don't have military experience. What Booming says about Riker in that scene in COC2 does make sense to me.

I do think though that Riker's saying "So ask me" is because Jellico says he won't order Riker to do it. I think what Riker should have done is volunteered for the mission.

I think that the overall MEANING of the scene is that Riker, pointedly an improvisational jazz musician and hotshot pilot, has a looser style in terms of how he runs things, interpersonally, compared with Jellico's more buttoned-up approach, and what is needed to defeat the Cardassians this week is both; that the Enterprise maybe needs some of Jellico's militaristic steel but also Riker's looseness and ingenuity. I have always liked that element of the episode, where there is even a symmetry in the scene, where Jellico accuses Riker of being insubordinate and Riker accuses Jellico of being closed-minded and both are meant to be correct. However I think in execution the episode probably relies too heavily on use siding with Riker over Jellico because Riker is the regular and Jellico the heavy brought in just for the two-parter. I think the ideal version of the episode for me would have either Jellico be worse (so as to justify Riker's insubordination more) or for Riker to either be dialed back a bit more or to be more heavily called out by the narrative. This might be hard to achieve: to get to the point where Riker oversteps enough to be relieved of duty but not court-martialed and where everyone else on the senior staff has some problems with but are basically able to roll with Jellico's style.

@Chris W and William B

So the whole "drop ranks/speak freely" is not a real thing, more like Hollywood magic. One could see it as some kind of gentlemen's agreement, I guess. Still, even in that situation disrespecting a superior officer law and others are still in force. Obviously you cannot come to a gentlemen's agreement that breaks military law.

About the scene in which Riker is insubordinate. In that case it could actually be Riker who would demand a trial because if you are relieved of duty in such a way, then your career is basically over. Your commanding officer has deemed you unfit to serve during an active and very serious mission. Such a thing would probably get you a desk job and an early retirement. Maybe that's why Riker never made admiral. :)

"Separately, how do you evaluate Jellico's treatment to the crew and his decisions prior to having to deal with the Picard situation?"

From the standpoint of troop readiness and moral it seems to be not a good approach. This crew could potentially be in a war zone soon. Changing lots of crew routines has a great potential to lead to confusion during battle. The crew has acted in a certain way for years and now they have to change it all maybe days or even hours before combat?? On the other hand there many great commanders who were disciplinarians and because of that not beloved by their troops.

Here, that might be interesting to see many different command styles. I don't agree with the ranking, though. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyTb2lqiJe0

Is Jellico within his rights to behave like that? Yes. The military is pretty strict in certain areas. An insubordinate first officer is unacceptable for the functioning of a warship. Would you in Jellico's position trust Riker to implement your orders exactly how you give them?

@ Booming,

I know you're answering questions about contemporary military reality, but it bears mentioning (to all concerned) that Starfleet is not *just* a military organization. In fact Picard would say repeatedly that exploration and diplomacy are its primary spheres of activity, which is why until BoBW the principle existed not to design warships. With this in mind, we do need to project just a bit how the military might function in the enlightened future, and I don't think it's so unreasonable that "being mean" might actually be a good reason for an XO to object to a CO's behavior. In the current world that would of course be laughable.

Discovery seems aimed squarely at the blue-haired basket cases who comprise Southern California's community theater scene. I'm sure it's valuable therapy for them, but if it wants to capture anyone else and sustain the franchise's weight, it needs more than cloying excess and themes more appropriate for late-90s Disney Channel.

Discovery is far more likely to scare television executives away from Star Trek than criticism of Discovery ever has been.

@Chris W Thanka for answering. You didn't think Species TEN C were a unique and sophisticated and roginalmlife form and good storyline thiigh..that one scene with Saru not withsta ding..or the aci fi concept of the pokypkoid causing the Burn was good and original sci-fi or episodes like Die Trying from Season 3 or the Quajohn episodes from Season 3 were good? I didn't find them unsophisticated bit wondering what about them yiu might find unsophisticated or not smart? Thanks for sharing

Ok, Peter has been infected by the woke mind virus! You will receive your blue hair dye and a selection of tofu options in the mail.

You are right, of course. I actually deleted parts in which I pointed out that the Enterprise is by no means a warship. I don't think that there are many destroyers with music halls, poetry readings and a kindergarten.

Why does this literally end with a Scrubs J.D. monologue

They should have brought in Commander Kurn to run the Discovery. Now that is a show I'd watch. Then again, I'd also be down for the alternate history version of TNG where Kurn really did kill Riker for his "suggestion" and the rest of the series went with him as Picard's new number one.

First Officer's Log, Stardate 43581.7. Fed up with replicated dead bird, I began to eat the staff of Cetacean Ops. Captain Picard has offered a reprimand.

Oh no I got the stardate wrong, how embarrassing!

Booming - I admit, I didn't go back and watch the Jellico episode. I never liked Riker at all, so anything he did there that showed him as a jerk would not have stood out to me.

I used to think Tilly was cute and interesting, but that was when she was a powerless cadet. In the last two seasons I've liked her less and less, as she's gone up in rank but not in maturity. That was actually where I was coming from about the comparison: Riker may have been an a*****, but he didn't come across as a teenager, he did appear competent. I don't see any competence in Tilly.

I have no quarrel at all with your view about the military.

Kurn for first officer would have been AWESOME, lol.

@Jeffries Tube: Bryce? Nilsson? Pollard? Who?

So Michael is going to negotiate with Trill’s equivalent of a mother grizzly bear protecting her cubs??? Of course, because she can do anything. Since when is Book a telepath? Did I miss something in season 3?

I agree with the consensus that Rayner is being treated horribly. And why is Book back? Seems he should be in jail, but then again so should Burnham.

Still the last two seasons have been better than the Ash Tyler Section 31 shit show.

The main problem with Picard and Disco is that the writing is incoherent, lazy, and a complete mess. I could maybe forgive the fact that the writers know nothing or care nothing for 50 + years of Star Trek canon if they were competent and told engaging mature stories with realistic character development and thoughtful consideration of complex moral and ethical issues. But they won’t because they are hacks.

@ Kyle

In order: the comms officer, the watch officer, the medical officer who replaced Culber when he was dead and has stuck around afterward. All longtime parts of the show's recurring cast.

. . .

I agree that Tilly wasn't always awful. They've given her no growth, and written her lines worse and worse over the years.

@The Queen

I'm rewatching season 1 at the moment and Tilly starts off as a nerdy nervy female Barclay figure. And that was okay. Now she's insufferable, she seems to have regressed in terms of maturity and I have no idea how she can be in any sort of position of authority. Both Tilly and Adira sound like 13 year old school girls when chattering at top speeeeeed.

I think the main problem with Tilly is her arrogance despite having lost the Dis­co­ve­ry to the Eme­rald Chain at the end of S3, due to poor judge­ment of the situ­ati­on and lousy threat as­sess­ment. Lec­tur­ing a much more ex­pe­ri­enc­ed and suc­cess­ful offi­cer on lead­ing styles does not en­dear her to anyone.

That said, the show might use that for a reversal (yeah, static of straws). In his short crew inter­views, Rayner made clear he is a good ob­ser­ver and has skills in judg­ing his crew­men’s strengths. There is a chan­ce the show will ap­pre­ci­a­te that later — may­be Tilly and Burn­ham and all the other “friends” eff up ro­yal­ly, and Rayner ends up cap­tain­ing the Dis­co­ve­ry to final vic­to­ry. He was cer­tain­ly shown to be com­pe­tent enough.

With Michelle Paradise at the helm, I fear, this will only happen in a parallel time­line never shown on screen, while in this one Ray­ner will only win the Liam Shaw Me­mo­rial Prize, posthumously.

Yet, I can’t now bash the show for things yet to come. Bad faith reviews are ad­mit­ted­ly an easy trap to fall for in this age of Star Trek, but I try to resist the urge.

BTW, I can’t fail to notice that interest for the show has drop­ped mas­sive­ly on this site. Even S3 got three times as many com­ments as there are now.

@Galadriel

"I can’t fail to notice that interest for the show has drop­ped mas­sive­ly on this site."

I know Jammer hates it when people use his response time to gauge interest level but now it seems nearly everyone is taking their sweet time.

And many of the replies are from people who have fallen into the trap of arguing with Booming over a TNG episode.

But these three episodes haven't been very interesting so far. There's little to inspire debate or even comment over. Whether people supported it or loathed it, at least in its past seasons Discovery had people feeling some kind of way about it. The show has never been this boring before.

@Tim – points taken (RE: mirror universe & S31)!

@William B – I can get behind the “siding with Riker too much”. This is the early ‘90s where it’s typical you almost always root for the protagonist regardless of what they’ve done.

@Booming – thanks for the additional military perspective!

@Peter G. – Agreed, there definitely has to be some adjustment both in terms of how an actual (quasi-)military organization might act like in the future as well as what needs to be done for the sake of a story. Booming's info was helpful. Before, I had considered Riker to be near-100% in the right on this. Now, I think I probably want to lower that a little bit.

@Leif – I agree with you on some of those items you listed. I would lump the concepts of Species Ten-C and The Burn under points regarding [1] “daring effort to world-build” and [2] “effort to dream up very unusual, unique conflicts on incredible scales.” Those were very cool. For me, a lot of the unsophisticated writing comes from certain character dialogue and sometimes character actions.

@Galadriel – “ …interest for the show has dropped massively on this site.” – I noticed that as well!

@Jeffrey’s Tube – Hahaha, is it a thing to argue with Booming about TNG?? I don’t think I’ve spoken to him before, but I kinda wanna go back and find past posts to see how often this happens.

So let me get this straight. The Trill and Jinaal in particular are very keen to keep this potentially dangerous technology hidden until it can't get in the wrong hands
* Why then doesn't the Federation just let them do their job and keep the clues secret? Isn't that what they want too? Do they no trust the Trill?
* How do they convince Jinaal that society has evolved past conflict when they literally admit there are others looking for this technology with less honorable intentions?

@Jeffrey's Tube “The show has never been this boring before”

I beg to disagree. S3 and S4 were both dis­tingui­shed by some­thing inter­est­ing hap­pen­ing or being intro­duced early, fol­lowed by a long stretch of bor­ing epis­odes, and then the finale (which IMHO fell flat in S3, and was some­what suc­cess­ful in S4, al­though YMMV). Like too little butter that has been scraped over too much bread.

Add me to the ones that occasionally visit here to check on how bad this show still is :D
I invested my valuable time in watching 3 of its seasons, patiently hopping it will get improved. I didn't even expect it to become a good ST show, just tolerable generic sci-fi. Idiot me!
The show looks and feels if it has been made by teenagers for teenagers.
But, I guess Disco has won, I mean I still waste some time bothering with it. Even these few mins.
Idiot me!

@Galadriel - yeah, BIlbo's line has sprung to mind on more than one occasion so far as Disco's protracted season-long "arcs".

This is why I'm *almost* looking forward to the penultimate episode to see if my little experiment works out. I won't have seen a thing since the premiere, but - based off past performance - all the meaty reveals will be reserved for the second-to-last episode, while the recap should be enough to fill in any relevant narrative beats.

"I beg to disagree. S3 and S4 were both dis­tingui­shed by some­thing inter­est­ing hap­pen­ing or being intro­duced early, fol­lowed by a long stretch of bor­ing epis­odes, and then the finale (which IMHO fell flat in S3, and was some­what suc­cess­ful in S4, al­though YMMV). Like too little butter that has been scraped over too much bread."

This is not just with Trek but a lot of modern serialized dramas. Lots of shows follow this pattern.

@ Leif

"You didn't think Species TEN C were a unique and sophisticated and roginalmlife form and good storyline thiigh..that one scene with Saru not withsta ding..or the aci fi concept of the pokypkoid causing the Burn was good and original sci-fi or episodes like Die Trying from Season 3 or the Quajohn episodes from Season 3 were good? I didn't find them unsophisticated bit wondering what about them yiu might find unsophisticated or not smart?"

Actually, I rather enjoyed the 10-C storyline. It's probably the most 'Trekkian' thing Discovery has done and the way they portrayed the struggle to communicate was exceptional.

My beef with that season is one I could make of all Discovery and Picard seasons: They didn't have nearly enough material to fill 10 hours, so we wound up with a lot of fluff, faux-cliffhangers, and all the other tropes I've complained about ad nauseam.

All of the "big" stories that have been told in Picard and Discovery could have been told in a well paced movie. Serialization CAN work on Television but only if you have enough material to justify it. It worked for Babylon 5. It worked for Game of Thrones until they outran the source material. It does not work for Star Trek, at least not with this writing team, who by their own admission make it up as they go along.

I did not like The Burn/S3. It might have worked but resolving the story the way they did was nonsensical in the Star Trek Universe. This isn't Star Wars, there's no "Force", and dilithium shouldn't have a spiritual connection to the universe. It felt like watching Chernobyl and learning the meltdown was attributed to a young orphan who shared a spiritual connection to uranium.

@ Booming

"From the standpoint of troop readiness and moral it seems to be not a good approach. This crew could potentially be in a war zone soon. Changing lots of crew routines has a great potential to lead to confusion during battle."

That's the bit I've never understood about the Jellico fans, here and elsewhere, the way he comes in with a bull in a China shop mentality. Lots of people can recall serving under someone like that in the military. I've never met anyone who looked back on it fondly.

I know people who have served on ships where the CO was relieved for loss of confidence. The new CO did not come in like Jellico. They came in like Pike does when he takes over Discovery.

@ Galadriel

While I don't disagree about there being very little interesting that happens with regards to the overarching or "A" plot of the season outside of the beginning and ending episodes with seasons 3 and 4, the best episode of season 4 (". . . But to Connect) is number 7 of 13. For season 3, episode 7 of 13 is "Unification III," which I would probably rank the best of that season, too. Again, both of these episodes barely move the needle on the overarching plotline, with nothing changing at the end of ". . . But to Connect" despite all the debating and Discovery not learning anything substantial about the Burn during "Unification III." But unless all you care about, and all you are watching the show for, is that overarching "A" plot, these episodes are far from boring.

Some early reviews have indicated that Episode 4 is supposed to be more propulsive. We'll see.

Did anyone want to throat-punch Tilly? I sure did. Could she be any more disrespectful to Rayner? Does Tilly think spending 12 or 20 minutes with each crew member is enough to get to know them like she wants him to? Loved it when he dressed her down a bit. To think, this is the officer training new Star Fleet cadets? .... makes me want to watch the new show even less.

But aside from that, this episode didn't go out of its way to piss me off.

The Saru/T'Rina story was fine although predictable.

I didn't care for Gray and Adira's relationship when it was a thing, and I don't care now that it's not. I think Ian Alexander is the better actor of the two, so we are left with the short end of the stick.

Choosing Culber was the right choice. He's probably the best or second-best actor in the series. He did a fine job.

So, if someone showed up who knew "Betezed" and couldn't communicate with the creatures what happened then? It seems pretty convenient that Book was there. But I liked how they handled it.

Did we get through an episode of Discovery without shedding a tear? ... say it isn't so.

Not a bad episode, but nothing really great. 2.5 stars is about right I think.

Jammer, I could do without the reference to Voyager being "decades" ago even if it's factual.
Sincerely,
Someone who just watched "Year Of Hell" last night. LOL

lol @Derek, yeah that hit hard ;)

Gratuitous Voyager action scenes? I don't really recall that. Enterprise was the one that introduced MACOs. And had a studio-given mandate to be an action series, at least whenever Trip and T'Pol weren't slathering gel all over each other's nethers for ratings.

@Jeffrey's Tube

I agree, the stretch of not-so-riveting epis­odes in the midd­le of a season can be inter­esting for other reasons. That is the bles­sing of episodic story­tel­ling: Even a not-so-good show can occasionally produce an excellent episode (see VOY). I loved “… But to Con­nect”, but to be ho­nest, “Re­uni­fi­ca­tion III” was soured to me be­cause of Burn­­ham’s in­suf­fer­ably emo­ti­o­nal speech in front of the Vul­cans, and I still don’t know what her mother did there.

And for every “… But to Connect” or „The Sound of Thunder“ there were two or three lack­luster episodes in the vein of “The Sanc­tu­ary”, “Terra Firma”, “The Exam­ples” or “All In”.

BTW, since no one else has mentioned it: It is beyond hypo­criti­cal that this show wants us to be­lie­ve all of­fi­cers on a ship should be friends. All Star Trek shows before DIS have spent some time show­­ing ca­ma­rade­rie, friend­ship and even bro­mance among the crew. DIS, on the other hand, neg­lect­ed to en­dear its cast mem­bers to the au­di­en­ce, it never show­ed any re­cre­atio­nal ac­tivi­tie (ex­cept if it in­volv­ed the lead), and when it finally did flesh out a sup­port­ing cha­rac­ter, she was killed off in the same epis­ode (“Pro­ject Daedalus”).

Loved reading Jammer's insight. Always here for it, accurate and fair.

As for the Tilly-Rayner debate, I enjoyed Rayner dressing Tilly down early in the episode, but I also enjoyed someone (Tilly in this case) saying enough's enough to Rayner who was being an asshole to anyone and everyone around. He was asked (ordered, actually) by his superior, Burnham, to meet with the crew, not to be an ass to them. And his superior also put Tilly there to overlook that process. You can be focused on your task, even be a no non-sense dude, but you don't have to act like a jerk to every crew member coming your way, and he definitely was.

I'll admit, the reduction of moments where Burnham shrieks at the sky for 5 minutes is highly welcome. But this show is still "Discovery Hills, 90210".

The debate about the TNG level of officer professionalism is a good one. I'd say that with TNG, they were in a period of limited war and there's a more civilian atmosphere throughout the ship, so in points where it doesn't adhere to military, it makes a bit of sense.

Disco lacks that, yet so much of the crew has sophomore glee club levels of maturity and professionalism. And o'lord, I'm so tired of the "you got this!" pep talks being rehashed over and over and over. As others have mentioned, it's funny that they're pitching a Starfleet cadet series; Discovery fits that bill, perfectly.

@Jeffries Tube: thanks for clearing up those names. I was too lazy to go back and watch season 1 and 2, and it's been a long time. In my defense I think it shows how little time or development DIS has given to developing it's bridge crew and making this an ensemble show like all past Treks, instead it's the Michael Burnham show featuring her different sidekicks, or Companions for you Whovians, Tilly and Book.

I love pretty much everything about Star Trek, including the new era stuff. I had plenty of problems with mid-series Picard, but it was still enjoyable to watch. And I really loved Discovery through Season 3. I really try not to be a cynic, especially when it comes to Trek, but ...

How can anyone find what has happened to Discovery acceptable? It's some of the worst TV I've ever seen. I see so many people try to justify it on the grounds that it is "different." Well, different does not equal good. The dialogue is trash. The story lines seem like they were written by a 4th grader. The "romances" are insufferable. I've never been ready for a Star Trek series to end until this one. Hopefully it's a fluke and the other series, which have been great, don't follow the same downward spiral into the trash heap. I'm stunned that there are still people that think these are good episodes.

One star for me. There’s some interesting character moments, and the pacing is better than the last two episode, but this one still betrays all of Discovery’s weaknesses in spades.

One problem is the ongoing gimmick of making each season a distinct story arc, resulting in a marvelous amount of padding. It feels like we’re once again passing time until we end up in a fairly dull resolution. This season it’s a treasure hunt, but possibly the most plodding one so far. Yawn.

Another problem, as Kyle pointed out above, is the deliberate frustration of any effort to identify with and get to know the series regulars. By this final season in a five-season show, we really ought to know Tilly, Saru, Burnham, and the recurring players better. But Discovery is constantly killing, resurrecting, and forgetting characters while bringing in guest characters who add nothing to the show.

For example, Tilly was gone for a long time from the ship, but now she's back. Now Saru is off the ship and there's a new first officer guest character who seems to be replaying the season 1 Burnham renegade seeking redemption storyline, but with far less interest. Meanwhile, Book is hanging around with a contrived connection to the season arc, and isn't adding anything substantive despite being a likable character.

The musical chairs game is tedious this late in the series. And it feels like the product of constant focus group tampering and showrunner / writer changes, rather than organic plotting. I used to like this show's crazy energy in the early seasons, when it was doing new stuff even when I didn't like its choices. Now it's just boring, as it flails around in search of a classic Trekkian audience without finding the fan market of other recent Trek series like Prodigy, LD, etc. And all the side trips fail to make us forget that Burnham is just dull, having lost her rebel status. Time to end this show.

“Yay, Gray is back!” - Absolutely no one
“Oh no! They broke up!” -Also absolutely no one

Man does this ship need a Jellico-type figure to come in and set them right. When Tilly starts on a rant, it would have totally in-character for Raynor just to yell “Dismissed!” and point to the door. But alas we are living in Discovery’s world and we must have feeeeewings for everything. I started this season telling myself to give it a fresh perspective and not to hate-watch it, but every time I give it the benefit of the doubt, it throws drivel like this out.

Also this Progenitor tech: “It can even bring people back to life!” Yeah, I’m sure this won’t factor into the series finale where a main cast member dies and they have to choose between losing the tech and resurrecting said cast member. (My money is on Book or Michael)

Also, was I the only one who thought of Emperor’s New Groove at the end?

Starfleet: No! It can't be! How did you get back here before us?
Mal: Uh… How DID we get her L’ak?
L’ak: (Pulls out a star chart) Well, ya got me. By all accounts, it doesn't make sense.

"if you couldn't control yourself and instead write this conflict-of-ship-cultures-and-command-styles to play out like a Riker-Jellico thing, which would have been doing it with maturity and showing a much more interesting conflict dynamic to boot." — Jeffrey's Tube

Riker VS Jellico was a train wreck worse than almost anything Discovery has to offer in the human resources front. That it can be taken seriously just shows how nostalgia clouds the understanding of some fans.

Jellico was absolutely right about everything, particularly his right to run the ship as he sees fit (God! He even thought Troi should wear a uniform because that man's depravity knows no bounds), yet we are expected to sympathize with Riker's pouting because dad lets him go to be late, but mom doesn't. How was the conflict solved? A crisis forces Jellico to beg Riker's help (because only Riker among hundreds of top shelf officers can help him — what a lucky turn of events that he was only grounded in his room instead of on vacation on Risa!).

The dead hosts at least remember past zhian'tara's, Lela recollects being at Curzon's when at Jadzia's she cites it as the last thing she remembers. But Joran remembers when he wasn't integrated properly. So I think when fully integrated not functioning seperatly they don't remember because they aren't seperate people. But Joran would remember equilibrium and field of fire. And Gray (if he had stayed integrated) would remember his time as Adira's ghost.