Star Trek: Discovery

"Forget Me Not"

3 stars

Air date: 11/5/2020
Written by Alan McElroy & Chris Silvestri & Anthony Maranville
Directed by Hanelle M. Culpepper

Review by Jamahl Epsicokhan

"Forget Me Not" is a refreshingly, unusually quiet and introspective hour of Discovery that feels like it's from a previous generation of Star Trek. It's among the quietest and most character-driven episodes of the series. It's perhaps not the most riveting episode of all time and it employs plenty of mystical alien mumbo-jumbo, but it's very nicely done and sincere, and it benefits from a final revelation that's truly intriguing — building on a concept previously explored by adding just a slight little spin on things that's rather ingenious.

The episode takes us to the Trill homeworld, to see if they can help Adira — the only known successful example of a human joined with a Trill symbiont (I guess Riker in "The Host" doesn't count because it was temporary) — recover the Tal symbiont's memories, which are blocked from her. (These memories include those of Admiral Senna Tal, who may know where to find what remains of the Federation.) Indeed, Adira can't remember how she even came to be joined with the symbiont in the first place.

After engaging in a few Trekkian standbys — (1) the Trill homeworld is reduced to a couple rural locations and caves on the outskirts of society and a cast of a half dozen guest actors; and (2) the initial conflict between our characters and the Trill (Adira is an abomination for having been joined with a human!) feels forced and unnecessary — the more sympathetic Trill help Adira by taking her to a Spiritual Sci-Fi Cave (presumably the same one seen in DS9's "Equilibrium") so she can break down the barriers and reclaim the memories of the symbiont. Burnham tags along to provide moral support for the new character amid the trials and tribulations.

Even as a quieter outing, this maintains a high VFX game by making the Trill caves and Adira's internal experience much more visually elaborate and distinctive than what "Equilibrium" could muster a quarter-century ago.

The B-plot is also an introspective affair that wisely examines how the crew is quietly suffering from isolation while trying to get on with regular business. (In a nice example of starship operational prudence, Saru recommends looking for a solution to use the spore drive that's not dependent solely on Stamets' ability to interface with it.)

Discovery is an island unto itself, and even if that was always the case as long as the ship was at war or on a mission, it's different now as the crew realizes that's forever, which eats away at their psyche. The story makes smart use of Dr. Culber by having him provide Saru with a status of the ship's mental health. This leads Saru to pull together a morale-building dinner for the bridge crew, which starts out mildly awkwardly and goes quickly downhill from there. (Detmer's quietly simmering PTSD climaxes with a macabre haiku envisioning the bloodletting of Stamets, whom she verbally attacks as self-important.)

It's nice to see Saru trying to connect with the crew and spurring them to connect with each other, even if the way things deteriorate in the dinner scene, and then are easily patched up at the end of the episode with the movie in the shuttle bay, are a bit pat. But this is solid and necessary material to make this ship and crew feel real, and it's the sort of thing that has often been missing from this series. We also get the resurfacing of the sphere data that's fused with Discovery's computer, which helps Saru by providing ideas for how to make these personal connections. The idea that this strange AI might actually become a functioning part of the ship's community, as opposed to a dangerous ticking time bomb, provides some hope. The crew could use some help out here. It's lonely.

As for how Adira received the Tal symbiont, it turns out her boyfriend Gray (Ian Alexander) was a Trill who received the Tal symbiont while they were in a relationship. It changed him and their relationship, but they were adjusting, and the new memories provided new gifts. (My gut reaction is that Adira and Gray are far too young to give this relationship quite the weight that it needs, but I suppose joining Gray with a symbiont would make him wise beyond his years.) But then Gray was mortally wounded in a catastrophic accident (an asteroid hits the ship; where were the shields, who was in charge?!), and the symbiont was transferred to Adira in an emergency to save it.

This has intriguing implications in how it reimagines the concept of loss and remembrance through sci-fi invention (and asking human questions through sci-fi what-ifs is what true sci-fi is all about, after all). It does this using familiar Trill concepts explored in DS9 episodes like "Rejoined" (and even TNG's "The Host"), but puts the added twist on things by having the symbiont joined back with the deceased host's lover, who now holds all of his memories. In "Rejoined," resuming a relationship from a former host's life was strictly forbidden by Trill society; they probably didn't even have a rule for what happens here.

When a loved one dies, the love that once existed between two people now exists only within the survivor's memories. With Adira Tal, now directly connected to all the symbiont's memories, we see something unusual has happened. Gray appears to her almost as if he's actually there, and they can have a conversation, like talking with a ghost. So odd that must be. (Comforting? Painful? A distressing form of multiple-personality disorder?) Is it a blessing or a curse? Part of grief is moving forward, but Adira will never be able to. Or maybe the way to look at it is that she will never have to.

Let's talk about the casting. Gray is played by Ian Alexander, who identifies as transgender male, and Adira is played by Blu del Barrio, who identifies as non-binary (and uses they/them pronouns). It seems especially apropos to cast these actors in these particular Trill roles considering a Trill symbiont lives many lives as different genders and the individual currently carrying the symbiont experiences the memories of all of them. One looks back at "Rejoined" from 25 years ago and can see how it used LGBT+ themes, and one looks at "Forget Me Not" today and sees it approached from yet a different LGBT+ angle. (From the pronoun standpoint, Adira has been referred to as "she" even though that's not how the actor playing her refers to themself. But now, with this melding of Trill personalities, that may change, except with "they" taking on the conventional meaning of multiple people.)

Maybe I'm giving too much credit to the writers here, but this casting is food for thought both inside and outside the text. Adira's specific storyline is a reference to — although not with any direct allegorical parallel — how we're increasingly societally more aware of non-binary identities. This isn't like TOS trying to sneak things past the censors in the 1960s (Discovery's writers aren't hiding what they're doing), but it still speaks to underrepresented groups getting some focus in a way that serves a specific story. Intellectually speaking, that's interesting. I've probably written more about the sci-fi substance of "Forget Me Not" than any episode of Discovery to date. That's saying something.

Previous episode: People of Earth
Next episode: Die Trying

◄ Season Index

202 comments on this review

Tim C
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 3:36am (UTC -6)
As this one began and Burnham and Adira set down on Trill, I was almost ready to credit the show for finally showing some restraint and not throwing gratuitous action or phaser fire into a plot that didn't need it! I was laughing less than five minutes later at how I was wrong. It felt like Jammer's good old Voyager Action Insert™ had returned from the grave. And the Trill were playing the role of the classic Hard-Headed Aliens for good measure.

Fortunately that was it, and the other fifty-odd-ish minutes of the episode were just well-played and (for this show) understated character drama. Felt like a bit of a throwback in that respect! It was all a bit sedate for my tastes, but it felt sincere and I'll give the show points for effort.

One thing I do continue to find weird: Saru invites Georgiou to dinner??? Look, I get that she can serve a function as part of the crew, but she's literally committed genocide. Not sure I'd be having her round to dinner if I was the captain.
Booming
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 3:44am (UTC -6)
"but she's literally committed genocide. Not sure I'd be having her round to dinner if I was the captain."
And don't forget she ate people from Saru's species...
AMA
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 3:47am (UTC -6)
Great episode. One of the best in the series to date. Addresses the difficulties of past trauma, the catharsis that may result from confronting as much, and the role that close others may play in the process of healing and growth. Star Trek is often at its best when it turns inside and examines the individual experience and this episode is evidence of that.

One quibble: Georgiou continues to be a detraction to the tenor and content of the continuing story line. Her departure from the series cannot come soon enough.
unicorn
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 4:10am (UTC -6)
"And don't forget she ate people from Saru's species... "

Yum yum.
Booming
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 5:04am (UTC -6)
"Yum yum."
*chuckling* (Nahn will never come back from that stupid line.)

Saru eating with Georgiou is like dining with Hannibal Lector even though you know that he is a cannibal.
Startrekwatcher
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 5:11am (UTC -6)
I quit watching DIS halfway through season one. Didn’t watch only read what was happening in season two. Was excited for PIC. Watched all of it. Terribly disappointed in that shoe. Skipped LD cause it looked like a horribly unfunny cartoon.

Tried to give DIS a chance with season three when it jettisoned the prequel setting. But ultimately Kurtzman Trek isn’t for me

Even if there are moments or episodes that sometimes give a glimmer of hope shoe can be good it never can maintain or capitalize on it. I’m jumping off again with DIS. I just don’t care about the characters. I hate when the writers try to give them emotional scenes or move the audience when they haven’t done anything to earn those moments

I’m tired of the Mystery Box. It’s long passed needing to be relegated to the ash heap of tv writing.

You just know that when the story reveals all it’s card and everything plays out it’s gonna be a total arbitrary and wholly underwhelming event like the first two seasons. But before we get to that the writers are going to stall, spin their wheels, toy with the audience in such an annoyingly cloyful way.

I guess I’m an old fuddy duddy. I’ll gladly admit I prefer the nostalgia of 90s Trek even ENT for all its faults.

At least those shows were well crafted. I liked the writing. They were mostly entertaining. The writers had real life experiences to draw inspiration from to imbue the characters and scripts with that allowed for relateability and resonance. There were fun high concept sci fi notions. The plots felt mostly fresh and held my attention. There was a comfort to those shows. Yes part of that is pure nostalgia. I won’t deny that. Rose colored, feel good days gone by. Soundtrack of my life. Etc etc. but it’s not entirely that either. I think there was a genuine objective quality to them

Nowadays Trek is just flash. There’s no limitations. Studios give kurtzman unlimited budgets. VFX Kets you do just about anything. Writing is an afterthought. I’m tired of the ADHD style and the convoluted storytelling. They include all these disparate parts and force them together by design without caring if they really fit or make sense. The payoffs are long in coming and when they do come they come as a whimper and are totally lame.

I’ll gladly take my old Trek. Whoever can stomach this new crap can gladly have it. I can and have rewatched most of TOS-ENT at least 50 times. I can’t even get through most of a DIS episode of last three weeks.
Karl Zimmerman
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 7:38am (UTC -6)
Wow. I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't that. That was easily the best episode of Discovery yet. Hands down. Possibly ties with Calypso as the best-written thing in all of Kurtzman Trek.

While Discovery has been trying for unearned emotional beats since the middle of season 2, when Michelle Paradise came on, for the first time all the emotional beats rang true.

I really, really appreciated the A plot was told from the perspective of Adira, and that Michael was basically reduced to a supporting character in this episode. It was a tiny bit hokey Culber found some excuse to pawn off the away mission on her, but I understand why this was done in terms of "needs of casting." And Blu del Barrio is absolutely fantastic as Adira. I was really, really not expecting to find a sweet, tragic love story which legitimately made me a bit weepy. But there it was.

The B plot on the ship - while clearly a B plot, was also fairly gripping. In some ways it was a subversion of say TNG, in that the whole bridge crew got together for a meal, and instead of it being congenial, things fell apart. But it wasn't dark and cynical - it was just raw, touching on the frayed nerves of the entire crew. And the positive note of the ending with all of the crew moving toward emotional healing just felt right.

The only thing I'm not entirely sure on is the re-introduction of Zora. I'll have to wait and see. But I'm very happy they didn't go with the fanwank of having Adira's symbiont be Dax.

Four stars. Easily. And I'm someone who is usually Discovery-critical.
Cody B
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 9:51am (UTC -6)
Interesting idea with the trill amnesia angle. Too bad we get to Trill and then see a stupidly placed unnecessary glamor shot of a fish swimming in water and then flying into the air just as the shaolin monks of troll come into frame. For a species that don’t care for humans they sure seem to copy the fashion choices of the Dalai Lama. Back on Discovery we have Thanksgiving dinner and oh em gee teenage rebellion Georgiou is like sooooo over Saru telling her what to do. Like gag me with a spoon. Detmer has some CTE rage that triggers Stamets and then everyone leaves. Now Adira and Michael get in a flotation tank. Michael somehow turns out to be a Trill professional and instantly knows just what Adira needs to do in the Trill dream world. I’m not buying Adira and her memory boyfriend’s chemistry together. Also he seems underage. This episode has some good ideas that are excited with the typical Discocery flaws. 2.5
Cody B
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 9:54am (UTC -6)
Corrections: Troll=Trill
Excited=Executed

Autocorrect doing it’s automistakes as usual
Mal
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 10:42am (UTC -6)
Forget me not

Star Trek Discovery Season 3 episode 4

Mal’s review before Jammer’s

3 1/2 stars (out of 4)

“Yoga, hyper-baric chamber, therapeutic coloring books, interstellar shopping.”

- The computer being hilarious

Is this the best episode of Star Trek in 16 years? Sixteen years ago this week, we were treated to what some of us call the Vulcan trilogy on Enterprise. Season 3 of Enterprise had a few bright spots, but it was season 4 that was probably the most consistently good season of the show. Alas it was not enough to save Enterprise. I had already given up on Enterprise by then, and only finally saw the rest of the show this year during the pandemic. In any case, the Vulcan trilogy was a treat at the time, and then we had no more Star Trek on TV for a dozen years.

Those dozen years made Discovery so much more of a disappointment. And Picard was even worse. So much worse.

But now we have this. All four episodes this season have been decent. Two weeks ago, "Far From Home" was really enjoyable. And now we have this. The best episode of Star Trek in 16 years.

The show starts out on the right note, with Hue providing the framing log. He's is no Picard or Kirk, but Hue has been a consistently pleasant presence this season, and he does the job so much better than Burnham. Since the actor playing Hue is the same as he’s ever been, I have to assume that the writers were just horrible at writing for Hue in seasons 1 & 2, and they have now gotten better, or maybe they’ve been replaced. Either way, bravo.

I have never been a big fan of the trill, and when they added Adira last week, I flippantly called her the "human Ezri." But this girl acts circles around Ezri and Jadzia.

This trill is no dizt learning about Joran or some annoying Trill resurrected in a ceremony so Odo has an excuse to buy everyone drinks. This is a little girl afraid to remember the horrible circumstances around which she got a slug. But the thing about suppressing memory is that you lose the good with the bad. Adira and her boyfriend seemed to have had something special. It’s a good thing that she has those memories back, even if it is going to hurt for a while.

I appreciated that the Trill society was just arrogant enough to provide continuity with DS9, but just cultish enough to feel a little like the Planet of the Synths that Picard visits with his crew in that horrid Star Trek show that is running in parallel to this one.

In any case, everything on the planet felt off kilter, and the weirdness really worked. A little like the weirdness of “If Memory Serves” from last season, where Spock goes to Talos. @Jammer gave that one four stars, but honestly, this week’s episode shows that Discovery has really learned some lessons and maybe even changed for the better. Whereas Spock’s adventures on Talos leaned heavily on The Cage and was too derivative to be considered great.

Back on the ship, the crew is literally at the breaking point. And as Tilly alludes to, there is nothing quite like a family dinner to bring everything out into the open. Each crew member around that table was true to character - so much so that they actually felt like individuals, not just wallpaper. You could like or dislike them for who they actually are, which is all I’ve really asked for from this show.

Again, similar to "Far From Home," the crew is able to really come alive when Burnham is no where in the picture. I’m not sure that bodes well for Burnham, but honestly, they don’t really need her to make this show. Maybe she’ll leave with Book at the end of the season. They could get married and start a family. That might be best for everyone.

I know people don’t like Georgiou. And I respect that. But what can I say, I would totally love to have her over to dinner. I suppose that means I need help. They say that admitting you have a problem is the hardest part ;)

If I had to take off half a star, it would be that after Voyager and Enterprise, I’m done with movie nights. But even then, laughter does fill a room,

Well done, Discovery. More like this please.
Chris L.
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 1:16pm (UTC -6)
This is the Discovery I’ve been waiting for. A whole episode of character development! There was more packed into this episode than nearly two full previous seasons. For the first time, Discovery went all touchy feely on me and scored a well-earned hit.

I particularly enjoyed the dinner scene. It struck as real. Everyone has been through a trauma, and it’s about time Discovery actually showed us the fallout from that, other than just putting it in an expository officer’s log saying: “the crew is on edge and are still dealing with the time shift” and then proceeding to have an episode that barely touches on that or reinforces it.

This episode worked better than any in the whole series. I even bought the renegade Trill guy coming around at the end. It was a wonderful use of the Trill species to tell a part of the story this season rather than just be fan service by their presence.

Discovery’s first 4 star episode in my book.
Eric Jensen
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 1:26pm (UTC -6)
When they said it was an abomination... I was thinking... a murderer named Joran was a trill... they had to purge the records... what hypocrites, the trills are...

Would be interested to know how humans can be joined with a symbiont... Glad it was not Dax.

A good episode though! Good character growth. Good to see that dinner scene, exposing their emotions and good they are going to get through it.

That computer glitch... Saru might be right...
Chris
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 1:40pm (UTC -6)
Solid episode. 3/4 stars

Adira storyline was well acted and interesting, although somewhat contrived. Of course Mary Sue Burnham had to tag along to be an integral part of the solution... again. I also found there was a lot to digest in a very short time frame; begs soooo many questions, especially when we have a setting that's 900 years in the future. It's like nothing much has changed.... in 900 years! The worldbuilding has not been strong over these past 4 eps. Am I the only one expecting so much more, I don't know, creativity? 🤔 not a whole lot of Star Trekking in this so far, mostly due to The Burn I guess... kinda disappointing for the 32nd century.

Really enjoyed the dinner scene. Some good conflict and intense interpersonal moments, save for Georgiou 🙄, ugh what a waste of a very talented actress.

And that was a whole lot of cheese at the end with their movie night. Crappy black and white film from what, the 50s?? Everyone laughing their asses off every two seconds? Yeesh. So cringy.

Still a very good episode.
Tommy D.
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 1:59pm (UTC -6)
4 stars. I think the best episode of Discovery thus far without Pike and co. Probably the best Trek episode in quite a while. I think the 55 minute runtime really helped pace the story. And I thought just about all the performances were excellent, highlighted by Blu del Barrio. Really amazing.

I like the structure of the episodes this season so far. A little more resolution and less cliffhanger, while moving the overall story forward.

@Mal

Although I find ENT to be fairly terrible, I enjoyed what you call the Vulcan trilogy. I just rewatched it not long ago and its probably the longest ENT ever held my attention.
Norvo
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 4:03pm (UTC -6)
Watching this episode of Discovery reminded me how many opportunities for drama Voyager missed by not digging into the "stranded far away from home" angle. This was powerful stuff, great turn for doctor Culber.

As for the Trill... I like the eye for detail and respect for DS9 continuity by having the symbiont pools, the isoboromine and the white robes return. But why does the symbiosis commission want the fact symbionts can bind with non-Trills to become common knowledge? Now anyone can come and raid your most precious possessions!
Henson
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 4:06pm (UTC -6)
Oh Jesus. If symbionts can bind with non-Trill....does that mean we're going to end up with Trill Burnham?
MidshipmanNorris
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 4:23pm (UTC -6)
... Whoa.

I mean... gosh. This was a beautifully written episode. There's some storytelling going on here that I haven't seen Star Trek do in... quite some time. This was an achingly beautiful and poetic piece that has all the flavors of a classic Star Trek episode, and all without anybody blowing anything up or any knock-down-drag-out brawls (emphasis on the 'drag-out').

It gets straight to the point, has references to Trill culture that are spot-on, and it really starts exploring the crew outside of Burnham, for a change. There's also an interesting bit about the "Ship's Computer" that I won't spoil.

It's true that it occurred to me that Burnham having to "guide" Adira in her joining had shades of the "Burnham at the center of everything" elements of this series, but at the same time, it's a conceit I am willing to accept for the sake of this lovely episode. I'm gonna go out on a limb and give it a solid 3.5 Stars.

Trekking, the way trekking is meant to be. MORE!
Kyle
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 5:19pm (UTC -6)
Are going to see Dax?
Mal
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 7:03pm (UTC -6)
@Norvo, first - awesome screen name :-)

You ask, "why does the symbiosis commission want the fact symbionts can bind with non-Trills to become common knowledge"?

It's a great question. The thing is - and this might have gone by really quickly in the episode and was hard to catch - but they did discuss it.

At one point they say that the Trill population has been decimated by the Burn, and there are very few hosts left. There is no one left to bind with the worms.

Back during Jadzia's days on the DS9 (or rather Joran's days), the situation was opposite. There were far too many hosts, way more hosts than worms, and they were concerned that people would start buying and selling (or stealing - as happened with Jadzia) hosts.

The economics are opposite at this time in the 32nd century.

@Henson, I don't think so. When they discussed "a different joining" at the end of the episode, I took it to mean that once the Federation was back up and running, the Trill would consider joining the Federation.

@Kyle, I don't think we'd see Dax. We are 700 years from the time of DS9. Dax was always a little too adventurous to live forever. If I had to guess, I'd say Dax died in the Burn like most Trill.
Nick
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 9:32pm (UTC -6)
A nice thing about this episode is how they made Detmer's PTSD a side effect of jumping into the future and even turned it into a bit of character development. There's still an opportunity for the writers to screw it up in a future episode by turning it into the return of Control or something ridiculous but I will be very satisfied if this is the resolution of that little mystery from two episodes ago.
Nick
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 9:42pm (UTC -6)
One more comment, I know a lot of people don't like Georgiou but having a character from the mirror universe as a series regular is a fresh idea for Trek. Yes, her character is a cartoon, but that's the point, she is from the mirror universe, it's a faithful representation. I personally view her as a much better version of Neelix. While she is just the comic relief for now, they could build some really interesting arcs around her character later on.
Yanks
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 10:03pm (UTC -6)
A great episode for Hue. Cruz is a top-notch actor in my book. They need to give him more. He said he was a "Medical Officer" in his monolog. I guess we still don't know who's in charge down there, him or Pollard. I still think it's Pollard in the back of my head but I can't place why I think that. Not sure I understood why he chose Michael to go to the surface with Adira. (other than it's Michael ... frakin ... Burnham!!)

We learn that Adira is the first human host of a Trill.

Saru orders Stamets and Tilly to figure out an interface that doesn't involve having to plug Stamets into the spore drive because they are screwed if he dies. Tilly has had some thoughts about a Dark Matter interface and Stamets slaps her down. You'd think someone might start sifting around in that sphere data in situations like this. I'm afraid we are going to say this a bunch this season.

Off to Trill to help Adira and hopefully gain info on the Federation's whereabouts.

I enjoy the budding relationship between Adira and Michael.

Why didn't they beam down to the planet?

The Trill homeworld was beautiful. I'm so glad someone didn't say "Trill Prime".

We learn that Trill was somehow decimated by "The Burn"... not quite sure how ... was half the planets population off-world in Star Ships with active warp cores? Didn't we learn that half of all Trill can be a host in DS9? (not 1 in 1000) So, they have too many symbionts now? I'm not sure they really thought this one through unless I missed something.

Burnham and Adira meet up with the Trill welcoming party. We learn that In 2000 years there hasn't been a single recorded instance of a successful joining of a Trill symbiont and a non-Trill species. One Trill guy wants to rip it from her gut and Queen Trill says Adira is an abomination and they must leave immediately. Welcome to Trill!! They proceed to escort Michael and Adira back to the shuttle and Mr "I'm going to cut it out" shows up with medieval intentions and Michael makes quick work of them... to the point of acting "un-federation like" by dropping the last one for not showing them where the caves are. Then Mr good trill guy takes them to the pools. I thought they did a great job with the pool stuff. I don't remember Jadzia's eyes going all white though. My biggest issue with this was Michael thinking she had to remind Adira they needed the federation knowledge... eeesh, she's there for moral and emotional support. The knowledge will come only if Adira and the symbiont will exchange memories.

We then learn how Adira became a host. A touching story of two young love birds that were thrust into a horrible situation by events out of their control. I like Blu el Barrio and am glad she's part of the show, but I thought Ian Alexander acted circles around her. Ian has quite the screen presence. Adira ends up, through a sort of link via the pool and the symbiont, being accepted by all the previous hosts. Another touching moment when she can name all her hosts outside the pool.

Back on Discovery Adira gives Michael some coordinates to "the federation". The scene ends with Grey helping Adira play the cello. I hope they don't overdo it with the "Baltar/Six" thing here.

The "B" story covers how Saru and the Discovery crew are dealing with their new place in time and the trauma they all have suffered. I thought Hue's conversations with Saru were fantastic, relaying that the crew is physically healthy but not mentally healthy. We see Saru (again) asking the computer for help as he tries to figure out how to help his stressed-out crew cope and adjust. We get our second computer glitch and another voice joins with Discovery's computer in conversation with Saru. I laughed out loud at "interstellar shopping" as an option given to help the crew. "They" suggest taking the night off for the crew, maybe take in a movie... and for Saru to host a meal for his bridge crew. It turned out to be quite the dinner... haha... I had visions of the EMH sitting down to dinner with his family after B'Elanna tinkered with the program. I thought it was well played by everyone except Georgiou... man, sometimes they just give her crap. Just drop the forced humor stuff. Pretty funny that Saru asked Georgiou to dinner. The last time we saw something like this Empress Georgiou was having Saru for dinner... lol. Stamets and Detmer get into it, Tilly swears, folks leave, and Saru is left sitting by himself. It's obvious that tensions are high and folks are snapping. I'm again impressed with Oyin Oladejo as Owosekun. Please give her more. Tilly returns with great intentions to thank Saru and then screws the pooch by telling her Captain "that's leadership" referring to inviting everyone to dinner. Yikes, not your place Tilly. Then Stamets returns and apologizes to Tilly for shutting her down earlier. Finally, Detmer approaches Culber and states she needs help. Then they ruin it with "macho" and "it wasn't easy" remarks from Detmer. Again Discovery, show me - don't tell me. It was more than enough for her to admit she needed help. We all know she's tough. We end the episode with "movie night" in the hanger bay harking back to 'Enterprise'. Lots of laughter, Detmer hugs Stamets and everyone is starting to heal I guess.

I don't know what the big rush is. Saru should give them a week off. Probably should have stayed on Earth for a spell.

Felt like trek to me. I'll go 3.5 stars.
Rahul
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 10:55pm (UTC -6)
That was damn impressive -- for all the shit I lay on nu-Trek writers (they deserved it), gotta hand it to them for getting this episode so right. Just being able to tell an interesting, emotionally engaging, sensible and truly Trek story with the trusty A/B plot structure was exactly what they needed to prove, for me, that they could do. I really think "Forget Me Not" is clearly the best DSC/PIC episode to date.

I've never been a fan of DS9's Trill episodes -- but here, the visuals, the sci-fi were so well done. This absolutely blows DS9's "Facets" or "Equilibrium" out of the water and provides for some great character development for Adira -- great way to go about doing it.

I also loved how we get the important crew members for dinner as Saru's idea -- really trying to be a good captain. Dr. Culber plays a very important role here and always comes across as genuine and truly caring. The dinner scenes were refreshing to see the crew just try and be actual people.

There's some interesting world-building with the Trill planet and in true Trek style, there's a very organic and natural reconciliation that comes about. It worked far better here than in last week's scene with Wen and Earth defense force. Adira recovering her memories manages to turn the initially hostile Trill leaders around. It's about showing not just telling.

I liked Burnham in this one, other than the scene when she phasers one of the Trills so that they could get to the caves. Definitely overly pragmatic there but Burnham's pragmatism pushes Adira to connect with her memories -- really liked the sci-fi here as her and Burnham go into the symbionts' world, so to speak.

One drawback is DSC does have a tendency to be a bit sappy at times in how people apologize to each other -- it's not that bad here though, and the scene with the movie was also refreshing to see. Detmer still has issues but seems to be working it out -- was interesting to see her and Stamets bitch at each other at the dinner table and while he is sincere in his apology, I don't think she was (nor should she be).

The acting and writing were both excellent throughout. I think it was important that the DSC writers throw in something about Stamets' health re. the spore drive here. Just re-introducing it like it's there to use no problem and without touching on the risks to Stamets in "People of Earth" -- not even a line of explanation -- was unacceptable from the writers, for me.

Nice that Georgiou's parts were minimal but nevertheless fitting with her character. Have to wonder where Reno was -- it's weird how she just isn't in some episodes when I think she should have some minimal part to play. No Book either, which seemed like a bit of an omission.

A high 3.5 stars for "Forget Me Not" -- definitely a fantastic episode in so many ways. I had forgotten what it was like to watch a new Trek episode and be thoroughly impressed. I think this episode really touched on some things that needed to be addressed like the crew's health and providing another dilemma for Saru to resolve as captain. Culber's role is pivotal here. I do think, however, DSC is pushing the whole non-heterosexual thing disproportionately with Adira's boyfriend, but it didn't feel anomalous or detrimental to the story. And, just as an observation, no heterosexual white human males were harmed or portrayed as villains.
GreenBoots_
Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 11:48pm (UTC -6)
Those poor Trill bastards waited a hundred years for joined Trill to come and teach them about their lost culture, just for some punk kid to show up, knock three people out, take an illegal dip in the worm pool, and bounce immediately after. Their society was explicitly on the verge of collapse because of the lack of symbiotes!

Not an awful episode overall, but some obvious story shortcutting and typical Discovery melodrama kind of held it back for me. 2.5 stars.
The Queen
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 12:40am (UTC -6)
I have to ask - why are people calling Dr. Culber Hue? That's a city in Vietnam. His name is Hugh. It's really not that weird.

Now that I've got that out of my system, I'll join the chorus of praise for this episode. Once I write my own personal mini-review for each episode, I always check here to see what other people think and whether I've missed anything. Looks like I'm in the happy majority! I thought Blu del Barrio did a FANTASIC job, especially for one so young, and even Burnham was dialed down a little and thankfully forgot to whisper all the time.

The dinner scene was a joy - so necessary, so well written, so well acted, and the follow-up conversations were not overdone. The Trill plot actually didn't engage me very much - too obvious and cliched - but del Barrio saved it and we can move on from that now.

I liked the tie-in to "Calypso," wonder if more will be made of that. I guess Georgiou's only function is to be obnoxious and save the day when needed. I assume she'll have more to do later . . . ? Wish they'd just dump her on some planet.

The show is starting to mature. This episode was long-term memorable. Kudos!
Lodged Morphedo
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 1:25am (UTC -6)
What a stunning hour of Star Trek. As even my not-at-all a Trekkie partner even said, the most Star Trek episode of Discovery. Hands down it was, and they pulled it off with flying colors.

Know DSC goes for the feels, but I wasn’t expecting to be crying, tonight. This time, it actually earned these feels. So well acted & paced & directed & WRITTEN! I gravitate back here cause I’m also pretty critical of DSC, so I enjoy the commiseration, but I couldn’t help but think DSC had found it’s own Inner Light or The Visitor. Indeed, the cello and those amazing cords of course made me think of Picard’s flute. I even had glimpses of Lost’s The Constant, just simply due to the power of the love story being told in less than an hour, with secondary characters (in this case, new ones!).

Really have to give credit where credit is due. Everything worked, and what came together was a marvelous ‘tapestry’ woven with great care and love. The Trill outfits & planet & characters were spot on, all
feeling like it could have just been out of a TOS story. The connection to Trek lore (Trills) was thrilling, and to top it off, the scene that Rise of the Skywalker just couldn’t pull off with dead Jedi: the past hosts of The Circle come forth to meet Adira. Finally, Adira announces all their names.

Bravo, DSC, BRAVO 👏👏🖖

🌈🌈🌈🌈
HaveGun_WillRiker
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 1:27am (UTC -6)
Great episode, but I have got to say I really don't think Buster Keaton would be that much of a barn burner in the third millennium haha
John
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 3:54am (UTC -6)
Re: The liquid hydrocarbons dispute. Stamets had an image of benzene on his monitor while he was talking to Tilly. Benzene. Maybe fossil fuels went so far obsolete that no one even knows anything about them by Kirk's era? Kinda makes sense, I mean if someone asked today's engineers about steam power I suspect they wouldn't be up to date on the fine details.

*shrugs*
Tommy D.
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 4:21am (UTC -6)
I also have to agree about the comments on Wilson Cruz. He's been awesome when given the time.

Also have to agree with @Nick on Georgiou. Its a good observation on the character,
and one I never really thought about. I do think the writers could stand to giver her just a bit more depth, but perhaps thats coming down the line.
Booming
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 4:37am (UTC -6)
"Don't say anything annoyingly inspirational. That makes me nuts."

Ok, so I'm not as much in love with this episode than most here. But it certainly has quite a few things going for it. Apart from the one comment about"her memories will save the federation" or something, this felt small scale which is something this show needs desperately. You can save the entire galaxy only so often.

The episode is shamelessly manipulative but it kind of won me over with Detmer at the end. Often scenes in Discovery feel artificial, especially the dialogs. Detmer's mental breakdown and later admission of her ptsd felt raw and fairly real.

Another thing this episode does well is showing that Saru actually struggles with command and makes mistakes. Letting the dinner get out of control for example. Adding to that is the decision of the writers to not go for the Marvel dialogue pattern ergo serious scene directly followed by a joke.

The trill angle worked for the most part. Building in an interesting way on what we know about Trills.

Nitpicks:
- Science continues to be magic. Dark matter is the matter of choice for everything.
- Spore jumping through the galaxy. I guess the space fungus doesn't mind.
- Landing far away and walking somewhere. No official greeting at the landing pad despite this return being so important?
- interstellar shopping *eyeroll*
- People still don't act like they are on a military ship. Everybody just walking out on Saru.
- some annoyingly inspirational moments
- all his still feels sometimes limited. Why are we only seeing one former hosts memories. Why are these memories all happening in the same room? Why are the scenes basically repetitions?
- Burnham's hair is distracting. There is a reason people on (somewhat) military ships don't have wild hair. In an emergency you don't want hair to obstruct your view.
- tomalak has infested my brain. Now I'm counting white men.

There are more questions. Why is Trill society collapsing? Why is Federation headquarters location a secret??? Why is nobody looking into the computer being infested/controlled by the old AI thingy.

let's hope this episode is the beginning of a upwards trajectory and not the last glimpse of a gas ball shortly before collapsing. Remember season 2, people. The first half was kind of good and then it all imploded.
Yair
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 7:16am (UTC -6)
An OK A plot and a really good B plot make this DIS's best episode yet. Nothing new about the Trill, but the character focus works throughout the episode, and the dinner scene is great.

A few notes:
A) +1 for being suspicious of the Trill. It has been almost 1000 years and this entire situation is exceptional, it makes perfect sense to be suspicious. Which makes it odd why the crew didn't take even more precautions.

B) Why do most Trill councilors oppose going to the caves? It seems tacked on to provide conflict, given how well they go along with it after Adira is in the pool.

C) DIS hasn't entirely overcome its "tell not show" problem - the 'too responsible' talk with Burnham is so S2, we already understood Xi did well.

D) This character focus works so well also because it doesn't really need DIS's most problematic characters. Georgiou wisely does almost nothing (why is she even part of the officer crew? sigh), Burnham's role could have been played by almost any crew member who is fast enough with a phaser.
Yanks
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 7:45am (UTC -6)
@GreenBoots_

"Those poor Trill bastards waited a hundred years for joined Trill to come and teach them about their lost culture, just for some punk kid to show up, knock three people out, take an illegal dip in the worm pool, and bounce immediately after. Their society was explicitly on the verge of collapse because of the lack of symbiotes!"

I don't think it's a lack of symbiotes; I think it's a lack of hosts.

That begs the question though. So the burn was what, 125 years ago? You'd think those leftover Trill would have concentrated on making babies over the last 125 years...
Chrome
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 7:47am (UTC -6)
On the one hand, I think the series was due for a slow episode that fleshed out the intense situation the crew was in. While this one offers that sentiment on the surface, there isn't really much to this bare-bones plotline rife with overly-simplistic emotional arcs. To whit, did anyone understand why Stamets was so upset at Tilly's ideas? Nope? What helped him get over his issue in this episode? Happy music and soft lighting saved the day, I guess. Detmer's arc similarly came out of nowhere and was solved because the clock on the bottom of the VOD was nearing the 50-minute mark. Despite its ambitions, I'm not sure we learned anything about any of the crew in this episode.

The conflict on Trill plays out like the plot of a video game. Burnham needs to defeat some bad guys so she can help Adira find her memory so we can get another piece of the puzzle and move on to the next level where surely yet another FINAL BOSS and piece of the map awaits. It's shallow, idiot-plotting that never answers the whys or the hows of Trill, let alone the Trek universe, and instead keeps us busy with action and emotional visuals.

Honestly, I can see why a lot of this stuff appeals to people because it's easily accessible and attempts to tug at our heartstrings. And some of the scenes like Adira with her dying lover are good are good concepts. But once you recover from the "feels" and your brain starts asking questions you'll find this episode intellectually vapid. Again, the writers don't have anything big for us; it's off to the next planet!

Sigh.
Yanks
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:06am (UTC -6)
@Booming

"Dark matter is the matter of choice for everything."

Don't forget Dark Energy, Tilly threw that one in there too. Of course, what is "sub-space"?

"People still don't act like they are on a military ship. Everybody just walking out on Saru."

That's Saru's fault. He's got to step up his "Captain" game. For instance, when folks are coming to dinner he says "welcome friends". He's got to be the guy that is their leader, not their friend. They can't look to him as their buddy. Honestly, I'm not sure Saru has it in him.

"Why is nobody looking into the computer being infested/controlled by the old AI thingy."

Certainly. This is twice the computer as "glitched". I'm afraid they are just going to accept it without discussion listen to Saru tell his theory to Culber at the end of the episode. I hope they address it.

@Yair

"Why do most Trill councilors oppose going to the caves? It seems tacked on to provide conflict"

Agree. Sisko was with Dax at the pools in 'Equilibrium' and it wasn't the end of the world. Maybe this time it was because there was an actual human host and they didn't want to risk their "purity". Maybe afraid it would work out? ... lose their control?

"DIS hasn't entirely overcome its "tell not show" problem"

One of my biggest issues with the show.
Booming
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:24am (UTC -6)
@Yanks
"Don't forget Dark Energy, Tilly threw that one in there too. Of course, what is "sub-space"?"
True but older Trek used to only messe with science in a few places, like subspace or the universal transporter. Mostly because of communication. Subspace was used to communicate over long distance instantly because otherwise it would go like this.>> Picard: "I asked Starfleet Command for further instructions." Cut to three weeks later.
Booming
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:28am (UTC -6)
@Chrome
"Detmer's arc similarly came out of nowhere and was solved because the clock on the bottom of the VOD was nearing the 50-minute mark."
Detmer's arc was set up in episode 2. They showed her several times exhibiting signs of severe mental distress. It was not the deepest arc but it is nice that some of these people actually get arc's now.
Yair
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:55am (UTC -6)
@Chrome,

I suspect what Tilly did was nonsense on its face, like linking Mycology with space travel, and is still nonsense. Stamets understands he should be nicer about it, since other people also need to understand the MacGuffin (they're settings up using it as a replacement for the warp drive I guess?) and at least Tilly is trying to learn.

I do find the Stamets arc is getting annonying. Yea, he got injured and is gruff about it. So? People process in their own ways. If others want to give him a rest, they could sit still for a while; It's not as if Stamets decides to operate the MacGuffin on his own.

As for Detmer, It was set up, but I read her arc also as a bit of metacommentary - we didn't even know her name in S1 despite her key role.
Chris L.
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 9:48am (UTC -6)
@Chrome-

I think Stamets gets upset and is short with Tilly because he is a deeply insecure person that compensates by being overly critical of everyone around him. I think he is deeply conflicted about finding a different option for the spore drive, and has a deep seated fear of being irrelevant if a non-human option is found. I think he really doesn’t want to find one because he likes being the linchpin, which is part of why he jumps down Tilly’s throat and doesn’t want to give her ideas the time of day. Some of this comes out at the dinner, too.

It is subtle, which is new for this show. But I think that is what the writers are going for, and part of why I love this episode.
Quincy
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 10:46am (UTC -6)
This could've been a really good episode, but they ruined it. The B plot should've been a bit later in the season and had its own episode. It needed far more build up. The dinner scene was poorly executed with the wrong people arguing who previously had no connection with one another. Only Tilly and Stamets had any business jumping down each other's throats. I suppose that it's difficult to do a proper build up with such short seasons, but they can do better than this. The end was ridiculous. I seriously doubt humor translates across the centuries like that. People then won't be laughing at what we're laughing at now for the most part.

Please, kill Georgiou off. Her talents are wasted and they're not giving her any good material anyway.

What's with the dark matter interface subplot? Dark matter was said to be a power source. Stamets is like a GPS of the universe. What would that have to do with a power source? Also, they got rid of most of the dark matter they had saving that planet. Where are they going to get some more? It's something they'd never even seen before that incident with the pulsar. So how would they know where to find any more? I would think that would be the first order of business before using it for critical tech purposes. And it seems like it would be more of a solution for the dilithium problem, not the spore drive problem. Those gel packs from Voyager would make more sense for that and Adira, now that she has her memories, should be able to help them with that.

The sphere data, lets now dispense with that name, is sapient. So the sphere A.I. has integrated with the ship computer, so lets call her Discovery. She would seem to have the information that they need to solve many of their problems. Someone should be working on it round the clock. In fact, a stand alone episode
with this B plot and a concerted effort to interact with Discovery's A.I. would've made for a great episode. She should know just where they can find any amount of dark matter they need. She should know if any species has used it as a power source before and how they did it. It should be 90% of the universe and could supply all the needs for warp in the 32nd century. No more scavenging for dilithium.

The A plot was much better, but still that part where Adira's body disappears really took me out of the scene. Why? Where did it go? Is it a space-time storage pool? Did it stash her behind inside a pocket dimension in subspace? Did it supply the body with life support to keep it from drowning? That was just stupid and unnecessary. They should've just focused on the A plot. We could've seen the state of the Trill civilization. It would've been a great chance for world building. I can only give this episode 2.5 stars with all the mistakes they made.

@Chome
Apparently, Culber had a talk with him, as he went after him when he stormed out of the dinner. It should've been shown, but instead they off screened it.

@John
Did you post that in the wrong forum? No one has been arguing about that on this page, at least that I could find with the search function.
Yanks
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 11:48am (UTC -6)
@Quincy

"...The end was ridiculous. I seriously doubt humor translates across the centuries like that. People then won't be laughing at what we're laughing at now for the most part."

I'll disagree here. The choice was a silent movie, no language as the computer stated. It makes sense that if any humor would translate down through time, it would be this.
Dick
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 12:05pm (UTC -6)
This episode was just okay. The stuff with the Trill was the highlight. I didn't mind them being suspicious and unfriendly to Burnham and Adira since we are 800+ years past DS9 and their society has clearly been through a lot of changes. I'm also glad that we didn't meet Dax or some other Trill symbiont from the 24th century.

The dream sequence in the symbiont pool was way too long, though, and there was no reason for Michael to be there. This would have been a stronger episode if it was ten minutes shorter.

My ongoing issue with nuTrek dialogue reared its ugly head in this episode. Simply put, the Discovery crew should be speaking like 23rd century humans, not bantering like 21st century humans in a Joss Whedon script. And 32nd century humans should be even further removed from contemporary slang, idioms, and syntax. This has been a problem ever since Trek '09, and it's not likely to change, but for me it's the most glaring and unpleasant difference between pre-2009 Star Trek and nuTrek.

Saru's dinner scene was an interesting idea in theory, but the execution left me cold. The dialogue and emotionally-charged interactions between the characters felt strange and unnatural. For some reason, I kept thinking back to the dinner scene in TNG's "Haven", which was well-scripted, conveyed the distressed emotional state of the characters, and had some genuinely funny moments to break the tension.

Speaking of the dinner scene, Jett Reno was mysteriously absent and Nhan was present but conspicuously silent (this would have been a perfect time for a callback to "yum yum").

Re: Georgiou, someone above said that she is supposed to be a comic relief character and compared her to Neelix(!?). First of all, we already have a prominent comic relief character on STD. Her name is Tilly. Second, in the logic of the Star Trek universe, Space Hitler should be in the brig, not cracking jokes in the Captain's Mess.

The mirror universe concept is boring and was already out of steam by the 2nd or 3rd time it appeared on DS9. It was a terrible idea to make Discovery's first captain a mirror universe infiltrator and an even worse idea to bring Space Hitler on as a semi-permanent addition to the cast. Just kill off Georgiou already and I'll stop complaining (about the character).
Marco
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 2:25pm (UTC -6)
I enjoyed it. Perhaps a bit more than last week's. I liked the idea of the Hot Shot pilot with PTSD. Resolved fairly well. Less trilled with Tilly vs. Stamets diatribe. She was in character but I thought Stamets was ...not. He is a pompous ass at times, but this time it was a bit too much. The Trill story? I have basically seen it before: the Trills are quite fond of themselves, but they are just like us: part idealistic, part egotistical a-holes :) . I liked the fish/bird. Sometime nice production values help.
So far, best season of Disco.
Henson
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 2:40pm (UTC -6)
@Marco

"less trilled"

Accidental puns!
Philadlj
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 5:11pm (UTC -6)
That...was beautiful!
Reymont
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 5:40pm (UTC -6)
Easily one of the best episodes of the whole show. Hell, it’s probably the absolute best episode so far. The storylines inside of it were satisfying, yet I’m also looking forward to watching more.
maq
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 5:42pm (UTC -6)
Definitely one of the best episodes in the series. It happened a lot with a lot. The pool sceene could have been sligtly shorter to get more time for discovery crew. I also feel that Saru often takes to much time when talking becaues his sentences are so complex and long. He is thoug a fascinating character and the acting from Doug Jones is very good.

Regarding Giorgiou, I like the idea and her cynicism but it does not always work to 100%. Besides it it pleasant to see attractive women over 50, miss admiral Cornwell as well.
Tom
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 5:48pm (UTC -6)
Well isn't this lovely. Riker thought the "haters" only watch new Trek to confirm they hate it, but it turns out we all recognize quality when we see it.

A big step up for the show. We're not into the highest echelons of past Trek, but we're getting there.
Philadlj
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 5:53pm (UTC -6)
I’ll join the chorus proclaiming this easily the best episode of (non-animated) Trek since “If Memory Serves”, which was to me the only other episode of Disco worthy of a full four stars. The writing, performances, and even score all took a big step forward. At no point did it feel like a drag I needed to get through. Dax has always been one of my favorite characters, so it was great to see the Trill given focus for the first time in a while. I’d also be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge the first non-binary and trans actors in Trek, which is a huge deal. Blu de Barrio was tremendous, particularly in the subtle but vital transformation from “Just”Adria to the joined Adria Tal.
Isaac
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 6:16pm (UTC -6)
I didn't like the last two seasons. I'm really enjoying this current season.
Latex Zebra
Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 7:16pm (UTC -6)
Got me in the feels that did.
A few bits were a little cheesy but overall that was a really good episode. Inclined to agree that it is probably Discovery's best. Enjoyed all of this season so far but that was up many notches. I hope they can continue this.
The Queen
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 3:01am (UTC -6)
Booming - You keep referring to Disco as a military ship. But it's not really, is it? Isn't it just like Enterprise, an exploratory vessel? So the military aspect would be secondary. If you can point me to an episode (after the war) where they've said otherwise, I'd appreciate it. But because I look at it as basically non-military, I have no problem with what you're calling lack of discipline.

For instance, the dinner that "got out of control." Obviously Saru did think it got out of control. But my reaction was, that was exactly what had to happen. The era of Roddenberry Rules is over and the writers are acknowledging that humans will always have conflict. In the real world, people hold their frustrations about other people in, then explode, then finally come to terms once the emotion is released. To me, the very fact that people felt free to roust on each other at last meant that the dinner WAS a success. I thought it was very well thought-through psychologically by the writers. Including people leaving after the arguments and then later making apologies, whether or not they were completely sincere.

Yanks - This was the first computer aberration I noticed. When was the first one? I'm calling it an aberration, not a glitch, because the Short Trek "Calypso" made it clear that the ship is going to achieve personhood. (By the way, Quincy, her name is Zora - or it will be one day, so we might as well call her that now.)

Booming, you had roll-eyes about "interstellar shopping," but I thought that was obviously supposed to be funny. In fact it reminded me of Data. Zora may be becoming a person, but she's very inexperienced about practical human psychology (she just knows it from books). If you didn't watch "Calypso," which I thought was the best of the Short Treks, you might want to.

The one thing that seemed odd to me about the movie was that they all had to stand. Couldn't they just replicate a bunch of chairs?
Booming
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 3:31am (UTC -6)
@ The Queen
"You keep referring to Disco as a military ship. But it's not really, is it?"
You are correct, sort of. Starfleet doesn't have war ships. Still these ships have a military hierarchy and the officers are top of the line. People in military hierarchies seldom succeed when they are undisciplined. Detmer's outburst was understandable because she has a serious mental disorder but Stamet's behavior was inappropriate for the second officer/chief engineer. Attacking an ensign in that way, in front of the rest of the officers is unacceptable. Yanks point about Saru potentially failing as captain would be an interesting development but Saru is too popular for the writers to go down that route. I guess this was his lowpoint as captain and over the season he will grow into a captain that can control such a situation in a way that it improves unit cohesion.

"Booming, you had roll-eyes about "interstellar shopping," but I thought that was obviously supposed to be funny"
Yeah, I just didn't find it funny. For me it was a stupid NuTrek vapid consumerism moment, spitting on AuldTrek's post capitalistic world. Or to quote TNG Picard:"A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy." I guess in Discovery we are back to our infancy. No NuTrek episode without taking a dump on older Trek's philosophy. At this point I don't really see it as Star Trek. For me it is just schlocky sci fi which I get for free on Netflix + this little forum and it's lively discussions. :)
Mike
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 3:56am (UTC -6)
So why in the 23rd century are we supposed to have evolved from things like capitalism, but not from others like 'military hierarchies', 'discipline', and 'unit cohesion'? It seems to me that if we are going to consider economics of the future, which Trek has determined will be inclusive, welfare-based, and extremely progressive compared with what we have today, then we should be open to the idea that a (non-military) ship's organizational structure and social dynamics should be similarly progressive.

Personally, I liked that it was Saru's caring attitude which helped the crew get through the crisis and not some top-down command decision. Possibly the benefits of increased female participation in the writing?
Booming
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 4:10am (UTC -6)
"then we should be open to the idea that a (non-military) ship's organizational structure and social dynamics should be similarly progressive."
You have to have a fairly strict hierarchy on a ship that every now and then is in a fight. What would be progressive on such a ship? Having a vote about shooting on a ship? Or that people can just wander off the bridge when they feel like it? That would not be progressive but impractical.

"Personally, I liked that it was Saru's caring attitude which helped the crew get through the crisis and not some top-down command decision."
Sure, the caring part even more from the Doc was an aspect I liked in this episode but letting Stamets (again the Chief engineer) insult an ensign in front of the other officers is just completely inappropriate. Saru as the person in command should have interfered and given Stamets a stern warning.
James
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 4:59am (UTC -6)
I have to say, I think this might be the best episode of all of Discovery so far?
I also think maybe the writers are gonna stop leaning on Burnham so much. I don't know if anyone picked up on it, but that talk Hugh and Burnham had when he was saying how she's now the one who needs help, he was blatantly saying that she's the center of everything, even when she needs help. I think the writers have acknowledged the complaints maybe?

I also like Adira, I'm glad she'll be sticking around.

The hint about something being wrong with Discovery's computer? I don't think that's controls AI. Is it? Am I wrong here?

I'm not gonna lie. I cried like a baby near the end. 4STARS.
Mike
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 5:05am (UTC -6)
Well I accept the idea of rank and captaincy because it's practical for someone to make the decisions and it makes sense that it should be the most experienced. I'm not prepared to accept that a captain shouldn't call their crew 'friends', or reprimands and punishment. Ideally this is something that a future civilization would address in childhood, using approaches that modern psychology is starting to latch onto - the assumption that others are responsible for our upsets rather than projected remnants of past conditioning would be understood early in schooling as something to be remedied by internal processes rather than lashing out at others, as Stamets does. Stamets' upset has nothing to do with Tilly, and he needs to own his shit to resolve it. In the 23rd century this will be as obvious as knowing that smoking cigarettes gives you cancer.

Which I suppose explains why we don't see this kind of thing in Discovery, a show preoccupied with interpersonal drama.
Tommy D.
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 5:06am (UTC -6)
@Booming
The Defiant is a warship, created in response to the threat of the Borg. Its classified as an Escort, but its meant to be a warship.
Booming
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 6:23am (UTC -6)
@Mike
"Well I accept the idea of rank and captaincy because it's practical for someone to make the decisions and it makes sense that it should be the most experienced. I'm not prepared to accept that a captain shouldn't call their crew 'friends', or reprimands and punishment.
Ok, so what do you do when you are the captain and someone refuses to follow orders? Or are you saying that the a willingness to disobey orders would be trained out of people by modern psychology? Because that sounds a little scary.

@Tommy D
"The Defiant is a warship"
I know. I never liked it that they said:" Oh there was a specific threat so we abandoned the principle of not having warships." It smelled like the writers wanted to appeal to certain desires of the audience to have a super bad ass warship. Fuck yeah! Why not just call it a very powerful escort ship. That were these little sins DS9 did that later started to take over the show.
Cody B
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 6:40am (UTC -6)
I’m seeing a lot of praise which this episode deserves but I’m also seeing the words “classic” and “great” which it doesn’t. I see how it could look to some like a classic episode after a quick casual viewing but the flavor just isn’t right. I don’t know Detmer well enough to really be invested in her condition to the point i would be moved to tears if something were to happen to her. Geordie though by the end of season 3 TNG? Well I sure knew him a whole lot more than Detmer. Discovery has too many cracks for it to have a classic episode at this point in time. Maybe a action-centric classic episode is possible but not a Inner Light or Far Beyond the Stars. It’s not possible because the crew of the Discovery is not my family the way Data, Sisko, Picard, Riker, Jadzia, Jake are my family. Hell, who isn’t a thousand times more familiar even with say Worf’s son Alexander or Wesley Crusher than “Lt. Owosekun”(28 episodes) or “Lt. Bryce” (24 episodes) or just Detmer for that matter. Even Airiam had to be given a forced montage (introduction would probably be a better term) before her death so that we could care in the slightest. This show has too many fundamental flaws for it to have anything in the ballpark of an honest real classic episode.
SlackerInc
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 7:44am (UTC -6)
I'm much more of a hard sci-fi guy, which is unfortunately always in short supply in our popular culture (although I did see a great example just yesterday, a 2013 movie called “Europa Report”), so this kind of very soft quasi-mystical type story is not my thing. (I've had far more than my fill of robed priests and communal pools of milky goop for one lifetime, thanks.) But I’m sure it was well done for those who enjoy such things. Which appears to be most of you!

I did like the B plot on the ship. Good to see some acid-tongued truthtelling on display, but a more nuanced version than we see from the Empress.

I’m glad to see Detmer is apparently just having a tough time and it’s not some kind of Control retread business.
MarkG
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 7:49am (UTC -6)
This would be so much better if Michael didn’t get to go the planet but the doctor did (as intended)
Surely he was more qualified to provide psychological support.
Trek has never been about the lead character saving the day on every single episode.

That said, this was one of the best Discovery episodes ever.
Jason R.
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 8:21am (UTC -6)
"It smelled like the writers wanted to appeal to certain desires of the audience to have a super bad ass warship. Fuck yeah! Why not just call it a very powerful escort ship. That were these little sins DS9 did that later started to take over the show"

Wasn't the Defiant's official designation "escort" but it was actually a warship? In fact, didn't this exact point come up in The Search?

I gotta say I never understood this "no warship" idea introduced in TNG. This is not only contrary to TOS but also nonsensical - the Galaxy class ships were armed to the teeth. Heck even the lesser Nebula class could go toe to toe with Cardassian warships and wipe the floor with them as we saw in The Wounded.

It's along the lines of Sisko and Esri punching out hordes of genetically enhanced Jem'Hadar supersoldiers.
Booming
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 9:15am (UTC -6)
@Jason
"I gotta say I never understood this "no warship" idea introduced in TNG. This is not only contrary to TOS but also nonsensical - the Galaxy class ships were armed to the teeth"
On one hand it is about intent on the other about purpose. The same reason why we now have defense ministers and no longer war ministers (intent). And sure the ships are armed but that doesn't make them warships. A warship is optimized for the purpose of war. A galaxy class ship is a vessel for exploration, sometimes defensive measures are necessary when you come in contact with the unknown but the purpose is not war. That is why it has many scientific installations or does have facilities for children (People are away from home for a long time, so they can bring their families) and so on. Most people have never been on a warship or in a tank but there is not much space for anything but military equipment.

I haven't seen that much TOS. Did they call Starfleet ships warships?

"It's along the lines of Sisko and Esri punching out hordes of genetically enhanced Jem'Hadar supersoldiers."
Hand to hand combat never made sense in Star Trek. Klingons and Vulcans should easily break the puny Humans in two.
Yanks
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 9:55am (UTC -6)
@Booming

"I haven't seen that much TOS. Did they call Starfleet ships warships?"

I seem to remember the Connie being referring to as a "Heavy Cruiser".

That's about as close as I can remember being referred to as a warship.
Booming
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 10:51am (UTC -6)
Calling a space ship cruiser makes very little sense. A cruiser in the 20th century specified a certain range of tonnage and gun size different from the smaller destroyers or bigger battleships and before that a cruiser had a certain strategical role. None of those make sense for a space ship.
I guess the audience in the 60s probably knew that heavy cruiser means big and strong.
Daniel
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 2:38pm (UTC -6)
That was amazing.

One of the few Discovery episodes, so far, that rang absolutely true and didn't feel completely contrived and pointless. For the first time since "If memory serves", these characters on screen felt like people, not just props to some bombastic over-the-top storyline.

When Adira connected with her memories, her dead boyfriend, and finally her former hosts, I got quite misty-eyed. Both Adira and Grey are great actors and totally sold it. The score of this episode was absolutely beautiful and quite moving.

In the last scene, with Adira playing the Chello and ending with the classic flyby of Discovery, I felt so elated to have seen a truly great episode of Star Trek again. Here's hope that they hold this level!

Oh, and I can't state enough how much nicer of a place Discovery has become since they decided to switch on the lights.

4 Stars.
Tommy D.
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 4:17pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

I think part of it is a byproduct of writing in powerful adversaries such as the Borg (and later The Dominion). Once they engage with the Borg, I think Starfleet would have no choice but to oversee the development of dedicated combat ships.

After all, you can't expect to force all your enemies to take a nap and hope they self destruct :)
SlackerInc
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 6:49pm (UTC -6)
@Daniel: "When Adira connected with her memories, her dead boyfriend, and finally her former hosts, I got quite misty-eyed."

At the risk of being "that guy" (and for a Democrat, I am generally not very "woke": for instance, I defended JK Rowling when the Internet was furiously canceling her), I feel like I ought to point out that the character of Adira (and actor playing them) identifies as "non-gender-binary" and therefore uses the pronouns "they" and "them" rather than "she" and "her".

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/star-trek-discovery-trans-non-binary-blu-del-barrio-ian-alexander-1234824183/
Sen-Sors
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 9:18pm (UTC -6)
@Booming "The same reason why we now have defense ministers and no longer war ministers (intent)."

Sure, but they still run the wars, no?

If the Federation is going to war, or if they're going into uncharted (possibly hostile) territory they're going to use the big ships with all the military grade weapons, no? Is it unreasonable to label these ships, which are staffed by a crew that adheres to a naval-style heirarchy, as "military vessels"? Why? Because they're "science torpedos", not "war torpedos"?

I truly value the anti-colonial streak that more-or-less runs through Trek, but to me it's always been clear that no matter how earnest the Federation's intents are, these are military vessels.
Brian Lear
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 9:29pm (UTC -6)
They are improving on most all aspects of the show--pacing, writing, directing. It's all getting better and I give the new showrunner credit for that. They're doing a good job. This episode...dare I say it...actually felt like Star Trek. Blu Del Barrio's Adira is fun to watch. She seems like a natural choice for the character and she seems confident. Ian Alexander's "Gray" wasn't as much fun. I thought he delivered an over-the-top, cloying representation of a romantic partner and he seemed out of place and awkward. I'll chalk it up to growing pains and not having chemistry with the cast yet. But Blu Del Barrio didn't seem to have a problem giving a natural performance, so what happened with Ian Alexander? In any event, at least we had a story that felt like Star Trek, and the show IS improving on many fronts. Even the music was better this time out. I guess when you have a somewhat compelling script and new blood in the acting department, the music guys actually have something to go on.

What isn't getting better, though, and it's a big problem, is their reflexive use of the Michael Burnham character. This episode was a particularly egregious example. It's like no one on the show can have their own epiphany or experience without Michael Burnham somehow being the catalyst. I've been complaining about this from the very first episode of the entire show, and it's STILL a problem. Every episode. Every time.

There were a lot of apologies in the scripts lately, from the writers to the audience. They apologized for Michael Burnham giving hollow speeches. They apologized for turning Tilly into a lame caricature ("It's not about "science is cool" comment from Stamets"). So, a lot of apologies, but so far they aren't backing down on Michael Burnham being the center of everything.

Previously, she was the savior of the universe.

Now, she's going to be savior of one special deserving individual. Or perhaps one special deserving civilization, per episode.

The stakes are lower, but it's no less stupid. I really hope the writers have figured this one out and there are only a few more episodes of the Michael Burnham show. I'm expecting an apology from them soon.

2-stars. Everythings getting better but they haven't let go of their major trope yet and it's bringing down the entire show still.
Mertov
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 10:20pm (UTC -6)
SlackerInc,
Good point and that was a nice article to read. I also saw in a promotional clip weeks ago that the actor self-identifies as 'non-gender binary' and uses "they/them" but in the show other characters refer to Adira as "her" (Saru uses "them" at one point, and only once, but that comes right after he says "symbiont and host" so it is ambiguous) so I am under the impression that they consider Adira as "she" -- at least so far, maybe in the upcoming episodes Adira will set everyone straight?

MarkG:
"This would be so much better if Michael didn’t get to go the planet but the doctor did (as intended)
Surely he was more qualified to provide psychological support."
Culber tells Michael why he prefers that she goes with Adira. Also, considering that Michael's uber-recent experience of having to spend a year as outcast in an unknown environment without her friends and loved ones would make her more qualified than anyone in the ship - probably what Culber is implying too. I can understand Michael being at the center of everything as a criticism in general, but this episode is not one that merits that particular criticism. Michael helped Adira as a guide but there was never any doubt that Adira was at the center of that storyline. And that was one of the two main stories of the episode.


Another solid outing from Discovery (4 out of 4 in that department in my view), although I would consider the first two episodes a tad above the last two that contained a bit of a rehash of TOS and TNG (the Starfleet crew that swoops in and fixes problems of other worlds or long-term conflicts in a single episode). This was nonetheless a well-acted hour of Trek, with key character narratives. Saru's struggle with decision-making was compelling to watch and Doug Jones, as usual, sells it well. And as Yanks and Tommy D. point out above, Cruz needs more screen time, he is a good actor. I'll also give a nod to Emily Coutts as Detmer whose talent was obviously underused over the first two seasons considering she has been in every single episode of the show so far, except the premiere fo this season. Her annoyed reaction during dinner was chilling, and her later talk with Culber by the door, coming to terms with her problems was well-acted.

I'll go with 3.5 stars, a sliver better than last week, but not as good as the first two. This season is terrific so far, better than the previous two (and I thought season 2 was good).
Kat
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 10:32pm (UTC -6)
@Booming
Your characterization of Burnham's braids as "wild" and "distracting" reproduces racist narratives about Black women's hair. The military bans on hairstyles that you mention were not created due to any practical consideration, but due to discriminatory tropes which position white women with straight hair as the "professional" standard that all other women must emulate.

As a person with long hair, I can affirm that I can still see when my hair is down. I would also point out that Georgiou, Tilly, and Nahn (all characters with long hair) have been able to successfully perform their duties with their hair down in previous episodes.

I know you may have played into these narratives unwittingly, but I ask that you be more careful in the future.
Kat
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 10:38pm (UTC -6)
I definitely agree with many of the critiques on this forum about the overly convenient plotting/ sometimes rushed story arcs in this episode. However, as a queer 20-something, seeing an episode largely focused on a relationship between two trans teens was really lovely. I definitely understand that many were frustrated with Gray dying so quickly, and I know there's lots of ways this story line could get problematic, but this episode was a 4/5 or better for me
SlackerInc
Sat, Nov 7, 2020, 11:23pm (UTC -6)
I wouldn't say Gray is really dead. I don't have the impression that his appearance at the end was just a dream/hallucination (which is not to say others could see him). I assume he's a series regular now.
Cody B
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:26am (UTC -6)
@Brian Lear

I agree I didn’t think the actor playing Gray fit the character or could act well. I wasn’t buying their chemistry as a couple at all. Gray also seemed underage which just added to how out of place it seemed
TheSisko
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 1:54am (UTC -6)
MarkC: Anyone who has personal experience of being on the receiving end of a medical doctor's psychological 'support' will know that they are the least qualified to give it - that includes those who have been apparently trained to do so. I would trust Michael a thousand times before any Starfleet medical personnel.
Booming
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 2:53am (UTC -6)
@Kat
I can guarantee you that quite a few here are probably snickering that you accuse me of racism because that is kind of my thing. To your charge. It has several holes. First her hair is purposefully eyecatching. I'm not from the United States so I don't know why wild is racist. English is not my first language. It looks good but it is impractical for a military ship for the reasons I mentioned.

"The military bans on hairstyles that you mention were not created due to any practical consideration, but due to discriminatory tropes which position white women with straight hair as the "professional" standard that all other women must emulate."
I guess men in the military have short hair just to look good (or male pattern baldness)? Can you prove any of that or did you just pull that out of your ass? In modern militaries you have to have short hair BECAUSE YOU OFTEN WEAR A HELMET.

"As a person with long hair, I can affirm that I can still see when my hair is down. I would also point out that Georgiou, Tilly, and Nahn (all characters with long hair) have been able to successfully perform their duties with their hair down in previous episodes."
Yeah only Owosekun and Detmer wear their hair in a way that it would not distract them in a crisis. Can you even imagine how Burnham or Tilly would look if ship gravity fails. They would be unable to function. Or what if Burnham has to wear a helmet for a space walk or after decompression?! Impossible.
Burnham's hair looks like that because the producers thought that it looked good. That is why they even included a scene where they showed her having several hairstyles.
On TNG, DS9 or Voyager all the women apart from Dr. Crusher wore their hair in a way that is appropriate. In a ponytail (or comparable). Even Worf did that.

"I know you may have played into these narratives unwittingly, but I ask that you be more careful in the future."
*Fingers Crossed*

From your second post
" However, as a queer 20-something, seeing an episode largely focused on a relationship between two trans teens was really lovely."
That is a little yucky but isn't one of the two like 14 or 15? *googling* Yeah looked it up. Adira was born 3173 and the partner died in 3188... I guess if they met like three month before it would still be legal in Germany (We can start boinking with 14) but phew. That is young.
And by the way. The actors are trans but are their on screen characters too? That would be pretty cowardly if they are not. Like "here look inclusion" but not really. Would be nice after the horrors that the Trump presidency inflicted on trans people.
Booming
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 3:02am (UTC -6)
@Sen-sor
"Is it unreasonable to label these ships, which are staffed by a crew that adheres to a naval-style heirarchy, as "military vessels"? Why? "
That really depends if you would call Starfleet a military organization. I always thought that Starfleet was not a military navy more like a happy kumbaja fleet that can bite if it has to but really only then.
MarkG
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 5:42am (UTC -6)
@TheSisko

I’ve probably had some much better experiences with doctors than you had. But that’s not the . That said, IMHO the specific character in this specific show is not what you’re implying about doctors in general.

My main point though was that the writers went out of their way to try to justify how Michael ends up being a better counsellor than the ship’s trained (and shown during 2 seasons to be perfectly capable) doctor.

And since you’re TheSisko, just yesterday I watched a DS9 episode where Sisko shows up for a total of 60”. It was quite refreshing to watch a show where not everything depends on the lead character every darn time. :)
TheSisko
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 6:08am (UTC -6)
@MarkG - I'm still not sure about Culber being capable, he seems a nice enough guy but kissing someone in your medical rooms is really not that professional.

Also, I believe the second episode of this current season of Discovery has Sisko's 60 second appearance beat. You know, the one where Burnham was missing for the whole ep,and showed up briefly at the end.
Saffer
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 7:11am (UTC -6)
@Booming

“ Burnham's hair is distracting. There is a reason people on (somewhat) military ships don't have wild hair. In an emergency you don't want hair to obstruct your view.”

I had to think before commenting because I found your comment disturbing. I am a black woman and I found your comment disturbing, but I had to think about WHY I found it disturbing. And I will readily admit that watching the portrayal of a black woman in this context has been very interesting. Because we (Black women) do look at things as “small” as seeing how everyday realities like our hair are represented. It’s not something that usually happens on our screens overtly.

First off, her hair is not wild. Not by a long shot. Braids are frequently the go-to option for us when we do not have the time, space, or inclination of dealing with our hair. In that, I found the choice of braids to be true to life. It’s a neat, non-fussy way of dealing with Burnham’s reality as a Black woman.

Second, as with all other women, when the hair is in the way, we deal with it. Ponytail, bun, whatever. It’s not a thing. If you don’t understand how Black hair works, please do feel free to learn.

Third, that the current military organizations have never actually consulted with black women about hair in the military context is not to be taken as an indication that nothing can be done or that nothing is done. What organizations do (and this is not limited to military organizations) is to enact an erasure of people’s reality while expecting conformation to euro-centric aesthetic values. The acceptability of our appearance and aesthetic by non-Black people is a daily grind and it’s not acceptable that it is.

So big ups to the producers for showing us Oyesekun, Ndoye and Burnham and showing that Starfleet and Earth Defense Force (or whatever it’s called) do know that there is diversity even within minorities.

That was rather longer than intended, but there we are.
Booming
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 7:46am (UTC -6)
@Saffer
I somewhat answered this in another post but alright. This is not about aesthetics. Martin-Green is obviously a beautiful women. The hair looks good. As you say, she should wear it in a ponytail. That would be fine, not fine but better. The problem is that in a situation like moving fast in zero gravity she would be borderline helpless + you cannot fit a helmet over this hair mountain. Aiming while running will also be more difficult. She had shorter, more practical hair in previous seasons. They changed it probably to appeal to certain demographics.

"What organizations do (and this is not limited to military organizations) is to enact an erasure of people’s reality while expecting conformation to euro-centric aesthetic values."
So having short hair is now euro-centric? You have probably not served in the military. I did. You cannot wear a helmet with big hair. It doesn't matter if you are white, black or purple the hair always has to be short. In Germany at least. If you are running and shooting you don't have time to push aside your hair all the time. Also when you are in the field you normally cannot call your stylist to fix your hair.

"So big ups to the producers for showing us Oyesekun, Ndoye and Burnham and showing that Starfleet and Earth Defense Force (or whatever it’s called) do know that there is diversity even within minorities."
Well, Ndoye and I guess you mean Owosekun have acceptable hair. Ndoye has short militay style hair and Owosekun has a ponytail. On a military like ship that would be ok.
Saffer
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 8:15am (UTC -6)
@Boomer

I would hope that changing a character’s hair is not done to appeal to demographics. If so, I have to wonder what demographics were being appealed to with Janeway’s hair.

I think, in a “real life” situation, one would have to make a plan about how to deal with their hair. I look at Tilly’s hair - hers would be all over her face in a fight. She would have to make a plan. As would Burnham.

Re aesthetics: what I meant was that Black women have been expected to conform with Eurocentric ideas of what “looks good”, what is ”neat” and what is ”practical” and also what is ”beautiful”. These expectations are often onerous and damaging (sometimes literally for the air, and often to one's self esteem). I find it gratifying then, that Discovery is showing the different choices that can be made - dreadlocks (Oye), short natural (Ndoye) as Burnham (relaxed then natural then natural with extensions).

Quick aside - what happens when Linus has to get his big head in a helmet? 😂😂
Booming
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 8:33am (UTC -6)
@Saffer
"Re aesthetics: what I meant was that Black women have been expected to conform with Eurocentric ideas of what “looks good”"
I'm aware. I have studied sociology.

"I think, in a “real life” situation, one would have to make a plan about how to deal with their hair. I look at Tilly’s hair - hers would be all over her face in a fight. She would have to make a plan."
So that means that Tilly and Burnham rush to the replicator to make hairbands when the Klingons attack? Tilly's hair is another case that would never be allowed on a ship that could come and already has been in combat situations. It is not super important, that is why I put that point under nitpicks. It takes me out of the experience. That's it. Plus before the season started I saw the trailer and in it we could see the several hairdos of Burnham and I thought no matter how much the season will suck, at least we got a few pretty hairstyles out of it. :)
MidshipmanNorris
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 9:08am (UTC -6)
@Booming

"- interstellar shopping *eyeroll*"

Yeah, I get it. Star Trek has been annoyingly haphazard when it comes to describing how economics work in this imagined future. I don't think it has ever come close to making sense, because frankly, an economic system that doesn't depend on some form of fiat money hasn't really gone anywhere in the past, oh, 1000 years on Earth. It was one of those hippie-ish ideals that Roddenberry force-fed into the series, even though it's horribly bad writing, and in fact, Dr. Crusher is shown shopping at Farpoint Station in episode 1 of ST:TNG.

But I think the gag here is a very tried-and-true Star Trek bit; the computer starts listing examples of things incessantly, and the crew member making the request has to tell it to stop. Data used to do this in the earlier seasons of TNG, but it was cool how, over time, he learned that it was not necessary to get his point across, and he even ends up doing the gag at the Enterprise-D's computer in a certain episode.

But it's a running Star Trek gag, and I think that's what's going on, the computer is listing less and less helpful examples of ways to boost morale, until Saru finally has to say "Ok shut up."
MarkG
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 10:06am (UTC -6)
@TheSisko

Come on, man! You’re talking about an episode where Discovery is trying to get away from a planet for the entirety of the episode and is about to be “consumed” by the parasitic ice, only to be saved at the last moment by Burnham who magically appears out of nowhere. :D She is saving the universe even in episodes where she shows up for 60” :)
Henson
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 10:49am (UTC -6)
@MidshipmanNorris

The economics of the Federation depend on two factors: (1) the elimination of scarcity for many goods, and probably more importantly (2) a fundamental change in human nature. The idea is that classic economic models no longer hold because the incentives of human nature have been changed, 'evolved'. I, like you, find it terribly unrealistic, but it DOES make sense.

(which is not to say the series doesn't undermine its own fiction in places)
Wouter Verhelst
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 11:37am (UTC -6)
I loved them using a Trill symbiont. For a series that talks about things that happened a long long long time ago, having a Trill symbiont is ideal.

I like that the not-michael characters are getting a decent amount of screen time. Michael not being overfocused and wanting to have everything is something this series dearly needed. I had grown tired of her tantrums, and those seem gone now, which is a good thing.

I don't think doing a prequel series is ever a good idea; ENT showed that quite clearly. Discovery repeating that mistake was a mistake to begin with. Not to mention the continuity issues they willingly introduced by creating this "spore drive"... moving all the action to 900 years in the future neatly fixes both those issues.

Between that and the improvements they did to the Burnham character, as well as the depth they added to all the other characters. I like how Georgiou is building up to become a problem, very much like Seven was in season four of VOY; her insubordination reminds me of Seven's behavior in "Message in a Bottle", and her arc added so much to the later seasons of VOY, even if they ended up overusing her in the end.

I'm actually looking forward to the rest of the season now, even if I was quite unhappy with where the show was going at the end of the last.

It wouldn't be the first Star Trek show that didn't really go on to become really nice until its third season if it did manage to pull that off...
Cody B
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 1:52pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

you said “they changed it [Michael’s hair] to appeal to certain demographics”

Hmmm. Is that fact or is that you projecting a sort of disdain and paranoia? Personally I think her hair was changed to reflect that she is in a better place in her life or possibly SMG just grew her hair longer between seasons. Or maybe it’s a big conspiracy like you implied. I’d love to see some proof. What demographic is it they are trying to appeal to?
Booming
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 2:22pm (UTC -6)
@Cody
" Is that fact or is that you projecting a sort of disdain and paranoia?"
I'm not sure that I understand that sentence. Projecting disdain and paranoia. I'm feeling disdain right now but that has nothing to do with hair, sweet cody.

" What demographic is it they are trying to appeal to?"
I would assume women? Hair enthusiasts? Hair fetishists? Hair perverts? Cody's?

"I’d love to see some proof."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA
The Queen
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 2:29pm (UTC -6)
Yeah, my first thought about Burnham's beautiful braids (after, "Wow, she looks beautiful") was that the actor had wanted to change her look for a while, and the plot point of her being Discovery-less for an entire year was a good place to go with it. Which is also why I doubt that military needs had any bearing whatsoever on her decision.

I also think it might be intended to show a general softening of her character, which is being hinted at now. Who knows, if it keeps up I might even get to like her.

I wonder if Zora the ship is going to be developed into a character like Data, or is just going to stay in the background.

Re the two new young actors, remember at the end Gray asked Adira, "Did you tell them about me?" and the answer was No. So there's obviously some secret there, and from other things I've seen, I think the trans issue is openly addressed.

By the way, if anyone hasn't bothered to watch them, I'm getting a lot of interesting information from Wil Wheaton's interviews in the Ready Room. They avoid spoilers of future episodes, but often there are very good hints.
Yanks
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 2:40pm (UTC -6)
Long hair seems to be "in regulation" in Discovery's time...

https://youtu.be/FPx-1LhMm5A?t=156
Jason R.
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 5:44pm (UTC -6)
"What organizations do (and this is not limited to military organizations) is to enact an erasure of people’s reality while expecting conformation to euro-centric aesthetic values. The acceptability of our appearance and aesthetic by non-Black people is a daily grind and it’s not acceptable that it is."

Ok I'll bite. What do black majority countries do about black women's hair when they serve in such situations?
Saffer
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 5:55pm (UTC -6)
@Jason R.

I truly wouldn't know
grey cat
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 7:09pm (UTC -6)
I'm not feeling the love of the first few posters on this one personally although it's an improvement over the first 3. Not that sounds like much of a compliment since I gave them 1, 1.5 and 1.5 stars by Jammer scale so far. This one is a 2 for me.

That said it's probably almost the best DSC episode yet (I haven't given any a 3 star).

Detmer was the most interesting thing about this episode. The meal scene was almost good. With a decent script it could have been really good.

Now DSC is in roughly the same time as TOS. Considering the shoestring budget and rush and chaos TOS was made in it really shows what amazing job they did with the money. I watched Balance of Terror the other day (4 stars easily). Even with the bigoted crew member the script was tight, the crew acted professionally and logically. It was made 50 years ago ish and the actors sound more natural than any did in DSC. What is WRONG with the script/writing? It's just so bad and unnatural sounding. They sabotage themselves before a good episode has a chance to be one. And I think this one had the chance.

The good:
Looks nice (except the fish thing)
Detmer got to do some acting and it was good!
Kulber almost got to have a "Dr Episode" but nope.. he gave it to Burnham for no senible reason. He had some good stuff.
The meal scene was almost good.
The new character is reasonable. Erzi mk2. Although personally I preferred Ezri.

The bad:
Why did Burnham? Kulber made so much more sense. Surely the doctor can easily overpower the Trill with his 900 year old weapon - at least as easily at the science officer?
The security chief doesn't seem to be doing anything? 4 episodes in. Has she been given more than 3 or 4 words to say yet? Even Token Asian Man and Token Black Man on the bridge have been given more throwaway lines that that?

DSC is the very worst kind of diversity. I didn't even notice the Expanse had a diverse cast until Dominique Tipper pointed it out during the season 5 Trailer launch over Zoom. That's the right kind of diversity.

Surely no one want's to see themselves represented by a guy who says 2-3 words an episode, barely has a name, let alone a backstory or any actual character. Seems more insulting than being represented.

Uhura took control of navigation and joined landing parties and that was the 1960s.

Anyway yeah.. I kinda waffled. Keep going up DSC. Maybe you'll get there one day. Still watchable.
Skye Francis-Maidstone
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 7:29pm (UTC -6)
RE: The Big Hair Debate

Yeoman Rand had very big hair but to be honest I think it would have served as a helmet if required.

The Episode:

Nahhh.. ok but a little dull..

It's weird. They do action and I think it's a bit shit but at least I'm not bored. They do a pretty Star Trekky episode (decent stab at it anyway) and I get bored. Strange because I would have thought I would have really liked this on paper.

The whole pool thing went on forever and like Greycat I see no reason for Burnham to even be there. I was expecting Adira's to suddenly seem all wise like Dax afterwards but I guess she's not really prepared for it like Trill hosts are. Much as I love DS9, the Trill episodes were all a bit dull for me. Am I ok to call Adira she? I think there was some non-binary fanfare about this character or actor? Without their Twitter Bio I can't check their preferred pronouns.

The meal scene was entertaining although Stamets has become a completely unlikeable character which I guess is sort of what they were going for but it went WAY too far. Tilly stopped acting like a child thought which was nice. Detmer was great - more of that please.

SMG is vastly less annoying as this version of Burnham. Almost likable even (which she seems to be in interviews at least). I'm not really sure that someone's personality would change that much in 1 year but we don't know what she's been through I guess.

Saru was good as always.

Personally I don't mind Giorgiou but I think it's because I like the actress. She seems kinda bored reading these lines though.

I did find it vaguely amusing/sad that they had a great opportunity to give some of those bridge crew a few lines.. say what they're thankful for or whatever.. and all they had them say is "Aye!". C'mon guys, less pools and waffle, more character building.

Not bad though. 2.5 stars for me. Best episode this season. I'm gonna guess Jammer gives this 4 judging by his previous scores.
Jason R.
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 8:02pm (UTC -6)
"@Jason R.

I truly wouldn't know"

Since your hypothesis is that military and other organizational codes re: hair length are motivated by anti black racism rather than functionality it would seem to be pertinent to ask if non white countries enforce similar codes on their women. I have no earthly clue either by the way. Just curious.
Quincy
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 8:10pm (UTC -6)
@Jason R.

lol. For a hot second, I thought you were arguing with your mirror universe counterpart.
Skye Francis-maidstone
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 8:18pm (UTC -6)
@Skye Francis-Maidstone

Why didn't you add that the hand phaser seems to be a superior weapon to anything created 1000 years after it?
Cody B
Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 11:21pm (UTC -6)
@ The Queen

At the end when ghost Gray asks Adria “Did you tell them about me?”, I took that to mean Gray is now constantly visible to Adira and was asking if Adria told anyone. I think Adira has not told anyone because she doesn’t want to be seen as crazy and probably isn’t sure if ghost Gray is “real” herself. Idk that’s how I took the scene. You could be right and there could be something else. I have no idea
dave
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 1:12am (UTC -6)
@Skye Francis-Maidstone

It is ok to call Adira a she as that is the character, a female. The Actor is non-binary which would probably use the pronoun them or they (which I honestly would still slip up on in conversation; it is hard to remember to fit a word we always used as plurals for an individual!)

As for Gray; male character and trans male in real life, so him will work!
dave
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 1:14am (UTC -6)
Hm..

So anything think that they will find this dark matter interface deal so a living behing is not needed for spore travel; and that will be given to the Federation to power their ships and rebuild? And so its full time spore drive for all ships? Of course, all figured out by Burnham in the end :)
Saffer
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 2:25am (UTC -6)
@Jason R

There are 54 countries in Africa. I don't think I could be expected to answer for their uniform regulations.

I do think it's important to note that I never said racism. I said that there is a expectation for conformity to Eurocentric standards. While certainly racism may be a factor in most cases, I tend to think the cause is ignorance and lack of curiosity.

Out of curiosity,I looked up the South African navy’s hair regulation - they allow braids, cornrows, natural hair, relaxed hair and other things in between. But South Africa can't speak for the rest of the continent.
Booming
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 2:32am (UTC -6)
@Saffer
Could you link that? I was also looking into women in the military in Africa (very few allow women to serve; four allow or require it).
Saffer
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 2:45am (UTC -6)
sure

http://www.navy.mil.za/aboutus/uniform/dressregulations/hair/hair.htm
John
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 3:14am (UTC -6)
That's too bad, Worf wouldn't be able to serve in the South African military. Unless he got a sex change, of course.
Booming
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 3:37am (UTC -6)
@Saffer
See what I mean? In the South African Defense Force Burnham's hair (or Tilly's) would not be allowed.

@John
Sure he would be. He would have to cut his hair though. And just to give you the explanation for that before the men's right activists are swarming the place. Modern militaries have often a hard time recruiting sufficient numbers. So they opened themselves up for women but for women long hair is still the societal norm ergo not allowing women to have somewhat longer hair would mean less recruits. Men on the other hand are apparently not discouraged by the short hair requirement.
But hey if it is so important to you... then dedicate your life to the fight for longer hair for men in the military.
John
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 3:40am (UTC -6)
I'm not fighting for anything, especially not that. I just thought you were trying to argue that military hair regulations were strictly practical, which they're obviously not. But that doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Booming
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 4:06am (UTC -6)
@John
In a way they are practical (to maximize recruit numbers) but admittedly not practical when it come to combat readiness. If any of you ever had to put on a NBC suit quickly then having big hair will probably not be helpful (to survive). I had to during my military training and it is a whole shabang. How a mask is supposed to fit over a bun I do not know.
SC
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 7:40am (UTC -6)
I think I'm finally done with it. I just don't care about the characters and although visually stunning, the bluish grey look of the show is unappealing. I'm watching the show for the sake of watching it, just to say I did, and time is short.

I don't wanna put words into Jammer's mouth but it seems like reviewing is a chore for him. He takes almost a full week to post the review. Maybe it isn't as enjoyable to write these things as it once was. With Picard and Discovery, go figure! Call me when Brave New Worlds arrives.
SC
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 7:41am (UTC -6)
Strange New Worlds, typo.
MarkG
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 8:16am (UTC -6)
@SC

Warning: SNW will probably have the same blue/gray palette. It’s another Kurtzman show...
grey cat
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 8:47am (UTC -6)
@SC "just don't care about the characters"

Exactly my problem. Even by the end of TNG's awful season one I liked or at least knew something about all of the crew. I seem to remember liking Data, Georgi, Worf and Riker and not that keen on Picard (if memory serves). Crusher was ok except Wesley was dragging her down. Yar was bland and Troi was dreadful. I guess they had 24 episodes though. sort of an excuse.. maybe.. DSC has had about 30 episodes now anyway.

Even the characters they've semi bothered to "write" (Stamet's and Tilly) are completely unlikable. They even add characters to do nothing with (Yum Yum and Ms Sarcastic).

If you watch a really well written character driven show (Big Little Lies or You and 2 random examples from different genres) the difference is night and day.

Maybe Star Trek was better when it was low budget because they HAD to write good stories because they couldn't fill the time with effects.

Personally I don't care about the palette though.

I do have some hope for SNW though. Mount was superb, Peck was decent and Romijn is a good actress. Maybe they'll just recycle TOS plots like TNG did but tbh.. I don't even mind that much if they do it well.
Mertov
Mon, Nov 9, 2020, 2:06pm (UTC -6)
"Warning: SNW will probably have the same blue/gray palette. It’s another Kurtzman show..."

That's not a warning, but rather good news! I hope it does *not* have the "palette" of 60s to 80s Trek that we have seen over several hundreds of episodes (and thousands of reruns), one that was great back then and that I enjoy watching with lovely nostalgia even today, but one in which today's audience has little interest, one that would put today's audience to sleep. I would not watch SNW if it was a rehash of TOS and TNG. I am already skeptical about their announcement about it being a throw-back to the "classic episodic" times. It's already a prequel, in my opinion, a two-hour mini-movies would have been fine.
zanki
Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:34am (UTC -6)
Only thing that bugged me about this episode, then again , this has been a theme through out Disco, even with the consorted effort to rectify some canon in season 2.

Do Trills see their former hosts as spiritual manifestations, at the end of this episode with Gray , I don't recall Jadzia talking to people others don't see.

Also it was pretty great the nod at ST Picard
SlackerInc
Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 10:03am (UTC -6)
@zanki, what was the nod to ST Picard? I guess I missed it.

@Cody B: "At the end when ghost Gray asks Adria “Did you tell them about me?”, I took that to mean Gray is now constantly visible to Adira and was asking if Adria told anyone. I think Adira has not told anyone because she doesn’t want to be seen as crazy and probably isn’t sure if ghost Gray is “real” herself. Idk that’s how I took the scene. You could be right and there could be something else."

I took it the same way you did. It didn't even occur to me that there could be any other explanation.

@grey cat: For me, unlikeable characters was actually a HUGE problem with TNG. Yar was one of the very few (maybe the only one!) I liked at the beginning (later I liked the Whoopi Goldberg character, and of course Q if he counts; I warmed to Picard after seeing "Inner Light" many years later). Which surely explains why I have seen every episode of every other Trek series, but have still only seen a relative handful of TNG episodes, although I have watched a few more recently and have now seen probably around twenty in total.
Chris L.
Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 12:43pm (UTC -6)
@zanki-

Jadzia hallucinated about Joran and had visions of him that nobody could see. So too did Ezri.

More on point to Adira's experience, Ezri was able to 'summon' Joran, and after that she could interact with Joran like he was an external person like Adira can see Gray, but nobody else could. At least until she "unsummoned him".

So there's precedent for it. Plus, Adira is human, so the host/symbiont experience may be somewhat different. It didn't bother me too much.
Dave in MN
Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 2:26pm (UTC -6)
This episode was okay, but I don't see why Discovery constantly needs to rewrite the history of well-established Trek races.

My personal feeling is it's WAY too late to try to retcon the Trill. I found the rewrite of Trill lore, biology and rituals ruined the surprisingly immersive experience I was having up until that point.

I also didn't care for the maudlin conclusion of this storyline (with Michael as spirit guide) or the use of violence to move the plot forward.

Discovery seems to be more tolerable this season (mainly due to the more episodic feel and mych-needed characterization), but I do think some reviewers are wearing rose-colored glasses and handwaving away some egregious storytelling choices.

Also , this show still has Mary Sue Burnham saving the day every week and the most implausible ubervillian character in current television (Georgiou). These two characters stifle any narrative momentum with their ridiculousness.

The superfluous CGI flying fish was silly. Is this best use of a program's budget?

Good acting, though.

I've gotta go 2.5 stars.
Yanks
Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 3:18pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN

"This episode was okay, but I don't see why Discovery constantly needs to rewrite the history of well-established Trek races.

My personal feeling is it's WAY too late to try to retcon the Trill. I found the rewrite of Trill lore, biology and rituals ruined the surprisingly immersive experience I was having up until that point."

How did they mess up the Trill?
SlackerInc
Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 5:53pm (UTC -6)
I don't remember the Trill backstory well enough to comment on that specifically, but I do think most franchises mess things up if they run long enough, by going back and filling in details we didn't need or want, and moreover often doing a lot of retconning. This was something that was mostly refreshing about Voyager, getting to deal with new races instead of coming up with new angles on the old ones that tend to sabotage what was canonical. It's also a benefit of Seth McFarlane being turned down for a Trek series and doing something similar but with no preexisting canon to deal with.
Tommy D.
Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 7:08pm (UTC -6)
@Slackerinc

I almost fully agree, except I think Voyager buried the Borg.
Quincy
Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 8:03pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN
"Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 2:26pm (UTC -6)
This episode was okay, but I don't see why Discovery constantly needs to rewrite the history of well-established Trek races.

My personal feeling is it's WAY too late to try to retcon the Trill. I found the rewrite of Trill lore, biology and rituals ruined the surprisingly immersive experience I was having up until that point."

I'm with Yanks. What did Discovery change?

And considering that DS9 was the first to start changing the Trill from TNG's original presentation, I really don't see how Discovery could be indicted for any 32nd century changes. DS9 started during TNG. Discovery is what 8 centuries removed from DS9? And they get the blame, while DS9 gets a pass?

Really?!?
Jammer
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 12:48am (UTC -6)
Review now posted.
Captain Jon
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 2:04am (UTC -6)
Excellent review, Jammer! I felt this was one of DISCO's best episodes, even giving competition to If Memory Serves (coincidence that the two best episodes of the series are about retrieving memories?).

I feel this is a continued step in the right direction for this series. Season 2 was a big improvement over Season 1 but fell back on some of its familiar tropes. But Season 3 so far as avoided that trap, even though we're only 4 episodes in. Regardless, I'm encouraged and hope that the trend continues!
Booming
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 3:22am (UTC -6)
While Jammer always gives half a star or a star more than I would I'm usually impressed by how he makes an episode sound more interesting than I perceived it. He is a little more forgiving on the mythical mumbo jumbo.

Interesting perspective on the trans issue. It is almost a having your cake and eat it situation. It is overt enough to be recognized but not too much as to put people off who still struggle with this now more visible and to a degree accepted minority.
Nice review, old man.

*posted this first in the wrong thread. Sorry.
Tim C
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 3:33am (UTC -6)
Great review Jammer. Your thoughts on the implications of living with the memories of a dead lover, forever, were especially thought-provoking. I hadn't considered that.
Undesirable Element
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 8:12am (UTC -6)
Excellent review, Jammer. You raise some interesting points there.

I feel like mystical mumbo-jumbo is just the standard order when it comes to the Trill. DS9's "Facets" was absolutely ridiculous in terms of how the whole consciousness transfer worked. "Field of Fire" had almost identical mumbo-jumbo to what was presented here, with Joran being manifested as a physical entity that Ezri could talk to.

I actually really like the Trill as a Star Trek species, but from telepathic milky hot tubs, to consciousness transfers, to secret hidden murderers hiding in your subconscious, they are the mumbo-jumboiest of all Star Trek races. :)
Yanks
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:47am (UTC -6)
Jammer,

Nice review as always.

"When a loved one dies, the love that once existed between two people now exists only within the survivor's memories. With Adira Tal, now directly connected to all the symbiont's memories, we see something unusual has happened. Gray appears to her almost as if he's actually there, and they can have a conversation, like talking with a ghost. So odd that must be. (Comforting? Painful? A distressing form of multiple-personality disorder?) Is it a blessing or a curse? Part of grief is moving forward, but Adira will never be able to. Or maybe the way to look at it is that she will never have to."

Remember what made Jake's life so painful in 'The Visitor' was he could never grieve the loss of his father because he was never really gone. I could see the same issue here if they continue with the "Baltar/Six" type relationship. I think Gray should end up drawing from the wisdom of the other hosts and "let Adira go" to pursue other relationships. They were both kids (age) in this relationship so it will be interesting how long Gray remains in order to please the community they are trying to please. I've already heard huge grumblings because they added a trans actor and already killed him off.
778666
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 10:47am (UTC -6)
So, there isn't one single white heterosexual male left in this show?
Booming
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:20am (UTC -6)
Biden's America am I right!
Peter G.
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:28am (UTC -6)
Believe it or not I consider the presence of trans-aware characters (or at least a woke meta-narrative) rather parochial for a Trek show. TOS, and to an extent, TNG, had their eyes toward the future and often tried to show us things not as they are, but as they could be and might be. Uhura on the bridge showed us how things should be, and therefore actual *was not* representative of the current state of society. Trek right now seems hellbent on proving that it has merely caught up with the current understandings, that it isn't behind; the 'woke' symbolism is at best an exercise in lagging behind as little as possible. But it certainly isn't looking forward.

I suppose one difficulty here is that in the 60's it was probably easier to imagine a better future and how it would be. Certain people were blatantly marginalized, so a future where they weren't was a Uptopian ideal. But in an age of insane changes coming as a result of social media, gender and cultural concepts progressing more rapidly than even activists can keep track of, and the understandings of all these things being, shall we say, fluid at the moment, it might well be harder to project our current state of affairs 300 years into the future and imagine how it would be better (or at any rate different). But that's why you need actual sci-fi writers, rather than pop culture die-hards, at the helm. Or perhaps it would be clearer to say that the vision for the show has to be future-looking for this to be a mission objective for them; it keeps striking me that for ST: PIC and ST: DISC the mission objective is to show how Trek is up to date and 'with it' in 2020. But that's the problem: I don't want Trek to be set in 2020, but in space; I actually do want to see hundreds of years from now.
Jammer
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:37am (UTC -6)
@Peter G., I don't think that's what this episode is doing. The trans characters are not "trans characters" in the 2020 sense. They aren't identified that way at all by the story itself and, indeed, if you weren't aware of the actors' identities, you might not even be aware of the subtext. The story works apart from that, and also takes on an added layer when aware of the casting.
Booming
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:41am (UTC -6)
@Peter G.
I'm not sure that I understand what you are trying to say. Including Transpeople "isn't looking forward", not including them would probably not be forward looking as well. So how would you say this issue should be tackled? The characters on show the actors play aren't trans, I think.
William B
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:44am (UTC -6)
The other thing is that lots of us are or are friends and family with trans people. (I'm the latter, friend and family, not the former, FWIW.) It's kind of exhausting to go through the debate about whether trans people should or do exist, and that the only way to avoid this argument is to not depict trans people feels like a trap. I'm not saying Disco should get *credit* for doing a trans allegory in 2020 but I don't like the notion that people who are actually us or our loved ones shouldn't be depicted because people are currently paying attention.
Peter G.
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:49am (UTC -6)
@ Jammer and Booming,

In fairness to this episode in particular I haven't seen it, so I'm not really critiquing it but rather what I perceive to be the general mindset of the series. Jammer's interesting comment got me thinking along those lines, but thanks for the clarification Jammer that the actual details of this episode don't directly address the trans issue.

To answer your question, Booming, I actually agree that any writer interested in showing up as progress is now in a pickle. If they *don't show* what I would call contemporary concepts or 'wokeness' they could be accused of being regressive, even if in the process of not showing that they are intending to show something else, let's call it futuristic. So it's a rock and a hard place situation, where you either play to contemporary standards and end up ironically anachronistic for a far-future setting, or they don't play to contemporary standards and risk looking like they're behind contemporary standards. I'm not even sure what I would suggest to do in their place to cover both bases, but at minimum I would suggest to try to conjure up what things might be like, and what we might be like, if current fears and misconceptions were swept away. That does take imagination, but it's the job of the writer to make us go "oh, I never thought of that before, interesting", isn't it?
Chrome
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:52am (UTC -6)
I actually don't mind them inserting minorities (even if it's part of some sort of cynical follow-the-leader marketing scheme) but they still need to tell a good story.

Jammer wrote:

"Maybe I'm giving too much credit to the writers here, but this casting is food for thought both inside and outside the text. Adira's specific storyline is a reference to — although not with any direct allegorical parallel — how we're increasingly societally more aware of non-binary identities."

Are you meaning to say that Adira learning about her past is akin society as a whole becoming aware of non-binaries? I mean that sounds like a cool idea, but I don't think the episode quite got there. It's the same as the last episode with the racial casting *almost* making a message about isolationism but not really committing to it. I suppose we could all be generous by giving them an "A" for effort and hope they'll get it right someday. But they've had two years and some of us are getting impatient.

"Biden's America am I right!"

Please don't start this diviside rubbish. It's not Biden's America or Trump's America. The power of the USA is that the states can choose their own path regardless of the president and still work together.

Peter wrote:

"But that's why you need actual sci-fi writers, rather than pop culture die-hards, at the helm."

Yeah, I think this is it. If we ever expect a genuine message that isn't some sort of vague action movie blink-and-you-miss-it moment then we need people who know good story telling. Personally, I think PIC did it much better than DIS, but there's room for both shows to improve.
Peter G.
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:55am (UTC -6)
@ William B,

I only just saw your comment. I wasn't at all suggesting that certain things should or shouldn't be shown on TV or on Trek, and I'm certainly not taking a position in saying this that certain people do or don't exist. In fact as far as I'm concerned our understanding of the differences between people is still quite weak and that we will no doubt discover many other truths in time that break us out of the boxes we are often required to fit into. So I'm all for that. What I'm saying is more that the new Trek shows seem to be content to check off the current, new boxes rather than to try to eliminate boxes altogether and show us strange new things. Not that Trek has to be this weird, but you could look at Olaf Stapleton or Frank Herbert as examples of really wondering what people in the future will be like. TOS and (I think) TNG were more concerned with our future mores and society rather than creating what we might call utterly new and strange human cultures, but still they tried to carve out something new, and certainly not contemporary. So I'm mostly talking about the difference between looking forward and requiring your audience to come with you, rather than trying to make it clear you've caught up to where your audience already is.

Just ask: if a viewer watched DISC or PIC, are they apt to say "oh, I never thought of that!" or rather "yes! they finally get it!" I'm not even necessarily sure about the answer, but at any rate this is the sort of thing I'm talking about.
William B
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 12:03pm (UTC -6)
@Peter, fair enough. I also think that it's probably a time when the categories that people have are not adequately expressing the reality of lived experience. As you say it would be a blessing to see a SF story getting at a new approach. At the same time, it's a delicate balance to strike, because not every aspect of a given story will be a complete reimagining of our world, even if parts of it are.
Booming
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 12:12pm (UTC -6)
@Chrome
I was joking. This whole white heterosexual male thing is pretty laughable. The whole white category makes no sense. (In Europe we would probably see people from Spain as white but in the USA they are Latinos and so on and so on)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zetS51I0WwU

@Peter G.
On the show, as Jammer said, you wouldn't notice that they are Trans. You are right about the whole issue. In 300 years In Trek Transsexuality would certainly not be an issue anymore. Transgenderism (meaning a person being trans but not transitioning) would probably not exist. You get a working body. Not like today where it is still fairly rudimentary. The important difference between for example being black and being trans is that one is always and will always be visible while the other tries to be unnoticeable or as it is called in the transcommunity passable which means people will not notice that you are trans. How would you show that... people including a transperson talking about how somebody feels with his or her new penis or if she wants to have kids now? How great and easy the whole process was? Maybe somebody is trans but doesn't want to transition even though it would be fairly easy and the crew deals with it?
Chrome
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 12:29pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

I get that you were joking, but I see the same jokes on social media and I think we need to rise above that here. I sincerely think you're better than the Twitter memes. :-)

"This whole white heterosexual male thing is pretty laughable."

I wouldn't say that. The fact that some politicians have done well by rallying this demographic shows that those people worry about getting left behind. There's something to be said about being inclusive but not the expense of others, I suppose. There is truth in the statement that there's no strong white heterosexual character in season 3 of Discovery. Maybe you're right and it will encourage people to think outside of racial-gender lines and just enjoy characters as characters.
Booming
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 1:32pm (UTC -6)
@Chrome
" The fact that some politicians have done well by rallying this demographic shows that those people worry about getting left behind."
Parts of the elite telling the poor of the dominant group that it is everybody but these parts of the elite who are responsible for their shitty lifes. These politicians may have found the newest political strategy ever. ;)


"There is truth in the statement that there's no strong white heterosexual character in season 3 of Discovery."
I always found this so weird. DS9 scored best for me personally in the "I identify to some degree with almost everybody" category. Not matter what skin tone, cultural background or gender.
Yanks
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 2:02pm (UTC -6)
@Jammer

"I don't think that's what this episode is doing. The trans characters are not "trans characters" in the 2020 sense. They aren't identified that way at all by the story itself and, indeed, if you weren't aware of the actors' identities, you might not even be aware of the subtext. The story works apart from that, and also takes on an added layer when aware of the casting."

Correct. Adira refers to Gray as her boyfriend and Adira is referred to as she and her and does not balk at it. (so far, anyway)

I agree with Peter G, that I don't want to see "2020 in space" either. The problem with that is how do you please the SJW crowd without doing that?
Jammer
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 3:42pm (UTC -6)
@Yanks: "The problem with that is how do you please the SJW crowd without doing that?"

"SJW" has increasingly become a pointless label (mostly used as an insult by those who want to condescendingly "own the libs") but it probably means different things to different people and much like "Mary Sue" it's simply not helpful because of how obnoxious the term itself has become when typically uttered. Discovery was labeled the "SJW Trek" by some, but I just don't see it ... unless cast/crew inclusiveness is in itself a symptom of "SJW."

Even when Discovery's writers jumped into the political fray with their quotes about how the Klingons were Trump-like America First-ers, that just wasn't backed up with what was ultimately shown on the screen, which was mostly apolitical plotting lacking in any sort of substantive allegory.

I think most people, "SJW" or otherwise, just want good Trek and reasonable inclusiveness. Whatever supposed pandering that's going on is overstated, IMO, and mostly plays out in the press (and comment boards), not on the screen.
Scott
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 4:49pm (UTC -6)
I take offense to the term MarySue since that is my wife's name LOL. Just kidding.
Drea
Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 7:51pm (UTC -6)
@Booming asked some good questions about how Utopian sci fi would deal with trans representation, given that trans people often simply want to go about their lives without their transness becoming an issue.

The best answer, I think, would be just to have a trans actor playing a trans character. Somewhere after we've known the character a while, it comes up in passing, then we barely ever hear about it again.

If Adira turns out to be non-binary but closeted, this can make sense because they come from an Earth that's now post-Federation and not Utopian. It didn't come across as if Earth had regressed quite that badly, but it works.

I'll be annoyed if they're non-binary as a result of their Trill past lives though. Jadzia and Ezri were women prior to and after their acquiring the memories of men, and there's no reason that the (possible) first non-binary human on the show should only become that way due to an alien symbiont.
SlackerInc
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 1:25am (UTC -6)
I wonder if, like Boomer, I somehow posted my previous comment in the wrong thread? I have a clear memory of responding to @Tommy D about Voyager and the Borg. Did anyone see that comment land somewhere else?

I'm glad Jammer's review acknowledged that the episode "employs plenty of mystical alien mumbo-jumbo", and made a snarky reference to a "Spiritual Sci-Fi Cave". Apparently they are far from a dealbreaker for Jammer given his overall rating. For me, and it sounds like for @Boomer, I cannot positively rate any piece of sci-fi oriented around this kind of thing (which is why movies like "Annihilation" and "Arrival" lost me after promising beginnings, as did the 21st century BSG series).

@778666: "So, there isn't one single white heterosexual male left in this show?"

It's pretty wild. Even in the first season, it turned out the only such character was secretly a villain.

I think it's great to have diversity, and that goes back to the franchise's roots. I also think it's totally cool to have the captain not be a straight white guy (which doesn't, although VOY and DS9 were good steps in this direction). But to have such a large cast, and no straight white cis dudes at all (at least none with a speaking role)? That's taking it a bit far IMO.

@Jammer: "Even when Discovery's writers jumped into the political fray with their quotes about how the Klingons were Trump-like America First-ers, that just wasn't backed up with what was ultimately shown on the screen, which was mostly apolitical plotting lacking in any sort of substantive allegory."

Wait, are you saying you didn't see the very blatant, hammer-over-the-head parallel of Lorca and Trump? For real? It was hardly subtle. He even ranted against non-humans and said he was out to "make the Empire great again"!
Booming
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:18am (UTC -6)
@SlackerInc
I thought BSG apart from the last season was ok because it was never 100% clear if it was just plain religious believe or fact.

"But to have such a large cast, and no straight white cis dudes at all (at least none with a speaking role)? That's taking it a bit far IMO."
I'm always puzzled by this. How many people on earth are white heterosexual men? 200 million maybe. What is that like 3% of earth population. Think about Chinese and Indians which are around 40%. We so far had one Indian women in two versions, both evil. And then we had one Chinese women, also in two versions, one good but immediately killed, and one a mass murdering psychopath. The whites have Detmer, Tilly and Stamets. So if you have to include a straight white men which is only 40% of all whites. So then no white gays or replace a white women? Already the core crew, aka the people who are allowed to speak are, is almost half white, even if you exclude Saru who has pale skin, is played by a white guy and has blue eyes, an eye color only white people have. And all that after a season were the captain was a white hetero and super heroic #Pike2024 and Spock who is half human ergo a white heterosexual men. There are so many groups that are not included. No Arabs or Persians, no Native Americans and so on and so on. Literally the only people on this forum who complain about inclusion aka identity politics are white heterosexual men. Just to mention it. There are more than twice the number of homosexuals on the planet than white heterosexual men.
NoIdentity
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:34am (UTC -6)
"Literally the only people on this forum who complain about inclusion aka identity politics are white heterosexual men."

Err...maybe 'literally' has another meaning in German, but nope. Rahul was the one who brought it up first.
Booming
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:59am (UTC -6)
"Rahul was the one who brought it up first."
He says that he is not white but can we trust him. I have never seen proof... Maybe he is one of those fake Blacks or phony Arabs to get a place at a university? To quote Berlusconi maybe he is just:"giovane, bello, e abbronzato." :)
wolfstar
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:06am (UTC -6)
Jesus, what the fuck is your problem with Rahul? You've gone from saying he had "probably never been discriminated against apart from women not wanting him" to now accusing him of faking being Asian. And all because you perceive him as being against what you refer to as "inclusion aka identity politics" (which are not the same thing, and I'd argue Discovery is doing neither). You're doing a great job of modeling your much-vaunted inclusion and diversity (which ARE important) there by constantly nastily personally haranguing one of the few Asian posters on the site. It has to stop.
MarkG
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:12am (UTC -6)
If we take a look at the range of characteristics in people living in the US (with a history of 250 years of different races happily mixing their genes), and given that already 67% of global population lives in Asia and Africa (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_world#2020_population_distribution) by 2400 it will be very hard to find a white person as someone might describe one today. We’re all going to be shades of brown and yellow :D
Booming
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:16am (UTC -6)
@Wolfstar
In Germany we call people like you:"Menschen, die zum Lachen in den Keller gehen."

@Mark G
But are Japanese and most Chinese not kind of white-ish... :)
I have seen people from there and they are not yellow. I swear!
grey cat
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:14am (UTC -6)
DSC might deserve from credit for diversity or pushing boundaries if they actually wrote some characters (or lines in some cases).

Having a token "1 of everything" doesn't deserve any praise at nor is it being "represented on screen" unless you are actually a cardboard cut-out in real life. If anything, it's insulting.

Oh I'm not white btw for whoever said "..literally the only people who complain are white..".

DSC deserves credit for visual effects and that's about it.

3.5 stars is ridiculously high imo but then these are all just opinions and chit chat. after all.

Next episode just out for me.. I live in hope DSC really does make a 3+ star episode one day
Jason R.
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 9:44am (UTC -6)
@greycat

"Oh I'm not white btw for whoever said "..literally the only people who complain are white..".

Next time call yourself blackcat. You would have more credibility.
Booming
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 10:57am (UTC -6)
@Jason
No grey is perfect. A mix of black and white.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjlW3QCR8Rg

@grey cat
Oh I don't think that Discovery deserves credit. Did anybody notice that there are barely any aliens on the ship. What's going on. Alien Tokenism? As the Klingon Chancellor once said:" The Federation is no more than a homo sapiens only club."
So true, even though the Klingons aren't very diverse either...

Look to the cookie, people.
grey cat
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 11:26am (UTC -6)
@Jason R.

"Next time call yourself blackcat. You would have more credibility."

Is that meant to be funny? Or just casual racism or what exactly? Hard to tell.
Lord Garth
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 11:50am (UTC -6)
Jammer, if you haven't seen the Short Trek "Calypso", I highly recommend it.
Jammer
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 11:51am (UTC -6)
I've seen "Calypso." It was easily the best of the Short Treks, many of which were not very good.
Yanks
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 2:37pm (UTC -6)
Jammer,

One can say it's overstated and doesn't mean anything, but IMO that would be ignoring the truth.

https://youtu.be/vyMHkkB5gXg?t=362

This IS SJW trek.

But as I've said before, I could care less. Just give me good trek.

@The Queen

"@Yanks - This was the first computer aberration I noticed. When was the first one? I'm calling it an aberration, not a glitch, because the Short Trek "Calypso" made it clear that the ship is going to achieve personhood. (By the way, Quincy, her name is Zora - or it will be one day, so we might as well call her that now.)"

'Such Sweet Sorrow' part 1 when the Sphere data protected Discovery from self destruct and Enterprise's torpedoes. I think there is another one, but I can't place it.
Edmund Bloxam
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:44pm (UTC -6)
This was 'the episode with the transgender people'.

Adira was referred to as 'a woman' and 'she'.
The lover (I can't remember is name) was referred to as 'he' and 'male'.

Spectrums and all that, but absence of transgender here. No 'they' etc.
SlackerInc
Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 10:41pm (UTC -6)
@Booming: "I'm always puzzled by this. How many people on earth are white heterosexual men? 200 million maybe. What is that like 3% of earth population."

First of all, it's more like 400-500 million (roughly 45% of the population of people of European descent around the world). But more importantly, c'mon: whatever the theoretical makeup of a future Federation crew, this is an American show, written and acted in English. White heterosexual men are about 1/3 of the U.S. population, and in the other major English-speaking countries (Canada, UK, Australia) the percentage is higher. And let's be real, white heterosexual men are a higher proportion of the audience for this show, most likely an outright majority but at least a plurality. Yet I'm not saying they should have that level of representation among the cast. How about one prominent character, or a couple supporting characters?

"Lt. Willa needs a session with the social behavior hologram."

Uhhh...I was trying to remember who that was, and Google led me to a spoiler for a later episode I have yet to see! Please, keep your discussion of a given episode spoiler-free for future ones. Kthx.
Booming
Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 3:57am (UTC -6)
@SlackerInc
Sorry about the spoiler I wrongly clicked around and the mini review ended up here. My bad.

To your critique. So now it is European descent, well that is different from what is commonly referred to as white. But alright. The male white heterosexual population in the USA are around 27% or 90 million. So more like 1/4. I also don't know how you come to 400-500 million. That would mean more than 1.1 billion white people, again excluding Latinos. So Georgians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Greeks, Turks, Kazakhs, Azerbaijani, Croats and Bosniaks are white, too (all Europeans) but Latinos are not? Well, color me confused.

As to your point that Star Trek should reflect the racial make up of 2020 USA. I disagree. Why? Apart from pandering to the audience.

To your second point that it should reflect it's target audience, implying that white heterosexual men would not watch a show who had a few episodes without important white heterosexual characters. I guess that is a risk they were willing to take and you have seen my wrongly posted review so you know that there is now a fairly important white men. Maybe he is even heterosexual. :)
And why is sexuality so important. Can heterosexual white men not identify with a homosexual white man. You may not know this but Shatner and Nimoy are both Jewish. Are they white? As white as Turks or as white as Greeks?

And what do you say about the complete lack of people from other parts of the planet or that the alien to homo sapiens ratio is shifting more and more towards homo sapiens?
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 11:23pm (UTC -6)
@Graycat
"DSC might deserve credit for diversity or pushing boundaries if they actually wrote some characters (or lines in some cases)."

DSC might deserve credit for diversity or pushing boundaries if they actually did any boundary-pushing on the diversity front.

Can anybody here give a single example of DSC doing something that's against the status-quo in this regard? Is it doing anything different than what Hollywood's PC-culture demands these days?

We live in very dangerous times right now. Prejudice, hate, divisiveness and intolerance are at unprecedented levels. Most of it has absolutely nothing to do with either race or gender, and it's getting worse every day.

Is Discovery dealing with any of that? Is it making any attempt what-so-ever to break the mold of current culture and look beyond it into something better?

If not, then it does not deserve any prizes for "boundary-pushing diversity". Doing what everybody else in the biz is doing is hardly boundary-pushing. Nor does it really celebrate "diversity", regardless of how many women/black/gay characters appear onscreen.
LL
Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 11:36pm (UTC -6)
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
"Is Discovery dealing with any of that? Is it making any attempt what-so-ever to break the mold of current culture and look beyond it into something better? "

I mean, Disney's doing that for close to a century now, looking beyond hate and prejudice, but as you say things don't seem to be improving. What exactly do you have in mind when you propose that?
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 12:10am (UTC -6)
@Booming
"And why is sexuality so important. Can heterosexual white men not identify with a homosexual white man."

You're asking the wrong person this question, mate.

You should present this question to the supporters of the current PC-craziness. It is they who believe this issue to be so important, that they consciously and consistently avoid having heterosexual white males as major characters in their shows.

And it is this conscious intent that's the problem.

I couldn't care less if a specific character is white or back or heterosexual or gay or male or female. But excluding a specific kind of character, deliberately and consistently? That's a problem. Doubly so when it is done in the alleged name of "diversity".
Leif
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 1:08am (UTC -6)
Can you giys respond and PLEASE why people are glad the symbiont was not dax? Did people think it would've been too obvious? I think it wouldve been a good surprising twist or am I wrong?
Booming
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:34am (UTC -6)
@Omicron
You have all the little buzzwords, do you. :)
I somewhat agree that DSC does not push boundaries. If they had a redneck guy (in a cultural sense, meaning very rural, cautious to change and differences) being in a relationship with a transwoman. And the redneck family is super supportive of the whole thing. While the transwoman family who comes from a huge community of transpeople are more critical of the redneck family.

"You should present this question to the supporters of the current PC-craziness. ... they consciously and consistently avoid having heterosexual white males as major characters in their shows."
Can you point to any shows who do that? In Discovery we had season two with Pike and until they mirrored Lorca I thought he was a cool character, too. Not really Star Trek but interesting.

It seems to me that there is more than enough craziness in this debate on every side. Is it rational to demand that any show should have at least one, and I'm getting really tired of writing that, white male heterosexual in the cast and if they don't than that is a sign of PC craziness? I always get the feeling that people who writes these things should walk in the shoes of a minority for a day and then maybe they wouldn't see it as so crazy.

To give my broader view on the issue. Parts of the left have given up on the economic front, probably because of the end of the cold war and are now more focused on other things like cultural issues because they could have a few wins there. It is nevertheless a strategical dead end because capitalism has no problem adapting to inclusiveness and DSC is more a sight of that adaptation than anything leftist. It is just companies trying to find the most efficient way to make the most amount of money.

There are some social issues were the left should fight for equality but sooner or later it has to go back to bread and butter topics and maybe even more importantly a great tale of how the future should look like.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 5:45am (UTC -6)
@Booming
"Is it rational to demand that any show should have at least one, and I'm getting really tired of writing that, white male heterosexual in the cast and if they don't than that is a sign of PC craziness?"

Replace "white male heterosexual" with any other minority. Do I really need to answer that question?

"I always get the feeling that people who writes these things should walk in the shoes of a minority for a day and then maybe they wouldn't see it as so crazy."

Bro, I walked in those shoes for over 40 years, and I still think it is crazy.

What you just said is interesting. Because I get the feeling that many of these PC-crazies are armchair wannabie warriors who never actually stared oppression in the face. I can't help thinking that if they knew how bad the real thing is, they would have thought twice before inflicting it on others.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 5:52am (UTC -6)
Oh, and Booming, can you please leave the political cr*p out of this discussion?

Since:
1. Nobody here mentioned "the left" until you did.
2. You, yourself, claim that topic here (PC craziness) has nothing to do with the left.

Why even go on that tangent?

It looks like you're deliberately trying to troll people to start arguing with you on this front. And I sincerely hope that nobody is going to bite that bait.
Booming
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 8:02am (UTC -6)
@Omicron
You seem to be rushing to the dance-floor even though the music already stopped.

"2. You, yourself, claim that topic here (PC craziness) has nothing to do with the left."
Maybe you should reread my post. I clearly stated exactly the opposite. I didn't call it PC craziness but again: you+ right wing buzzword= Yawn.

"Why even go on that tangent?"
Because I felt like doing it.

"It looks like you're deliberately trying to troll people to start arguing with you on this front."
This says so much more about you than about me.

Ha' det godt
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:38am (UTC -6)
Yawn indeed.

Can somebody please explain to me, why this person - who has years of deliberate provocations and personal attacks of other commenters under his belt - hasn't been banned yet or at least given a warning?

I mean, Booming openly admits that she doesn't give a hoot about the effects of her posts. She openly admitted, countless times, that she's often being nasty for the sole purpose of alleviating her boredom.

And this has been going on for years. Things like claiming that other commenters are mentally ill, accusing people of being racists/homophobic for absolutely no good reason, attacking NuTrek fans for the sole "sin" of being NuTrek fans, continually twisting the words of other posters in order to get a reaction, and so on.

The worst thing is that this person has openly admitted that she is doing this just for kicks. Again and again and again.

Why is such behavior tolerated here? Why does a person who openly admits deliberate disruptive behavior is allowed to continue with their cr*p?

We have enough heated disagreements as it is. The world is going through a pretty rough patch right now, and we are all a bit on edge already. So why allow a person who is deliberately looking to disrupt things further, to do as they please here?

As Wolfstar said:

This got to stop.

I'm asking Jammer to put an end to this. Somebody gotta tell this lady that this website is not her personal playground.
Dave in MN
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 5:17pm (UTC -6)
@ Leif

It would stretch credulity to the breaking point.

Trill (presumably) number in the billions and 800 years have passed since DS9. The odds of meeting the Dax symbiont are astronomically remote.

I haven't sat through all of DS9 in years so my memory of symbiont biology is a bit hazy, but I never got the impression that symbionts lived for over a millenia. Centuries yes, millenia? Not so much.

Sadly, this show loves retconning so I guess whatever came before has been negated now.
Dave in MN
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 6:31pm (UTC -6)
Booming is female?!
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:16pm (UTC -6)
I honestly have no idea.

There are several people here who seem to know her (him?) from elsewhere, and that's what they said. I don't Booming himself/herself ever mentioned it. Probably enjoys the ambiguity.

Does it matter?
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: Symbiont lifespan

I don't think DS9 ever gave us any clue, one way or the other. So having symbionts that live for 1200 years wouldn't a problem.
Booming
Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 1:28am (UTC -6)
@Omicron
I didn't read your last longer post. Probably would have created a strong reaction by me. Who would have benefited from that? It was certainly devastating and people who read it likely thought:" Man, this Omicron is a great guy. He fights for truth, justice and the American way." :)
Brandon
Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 9:56pm (UTC -6)
Honestly thought this episode was horrible. I dont understand where this series is going. I could have done without the entire Trill plot. Also her boyfriend sounds more like a gay kid. Bad choice of actor. Could barely watch their scenes.

I really dont understand what the writers are doing. This show has gone completely off the deep end with casting choices. Its so PC that it becomes unrealistic af (I know sounds weird for a sci-fi but you know what I mean) and you notice all the white people/white males are always secondary to the black empowered females haha. What is happening here.

Also the amount of laughing in the holo movie scene was RIDICULOUS.

Are we even watching the same show?

I lost interest half way through the episode and thats why I am here.

If you guys think this is the best episode then we are doomed.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 5:16am (UTC -6)
@Booming
"I didn't read your last longer post."

Who cares? It wasn't meant for you anyway.

A greater concern is that - long and winded as that post was - Jammer didn't read it either. So I'm going to summarize it in a minute:
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 5:17am (UTC -6)
Dear Jammer,

Booming has been trolling our boards for years and openly admitted his malicious intent more than once. I, for one, am sick and tired of this. Please do something do about it.

Thank you.
Jason R.
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 6:23am (UTC -6)
"Booming has been trolling our boards for years and openly admitted his malicious intent more than once. I, for one, am sick and tired of this. Please do something do about it."

Please don't. This forum's free spirit is something to be celebrated not crushed.
Mal
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:23am (UTC -6)
@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi, give it time.

@Booming has been here less than 3 years. You remember how annoying Nelix was for the first three seasons ;)

Star Trek is a very good influence on people. And @Jammer has done the Trek community a huge service by providing us with this website with his reviews and this space for comments.

Of course it is sad when people drag down this space with their sarcasm and negativity, rather than spending time and efforts to elevate and bind the community.

But I suspect, that once whatever circumstances that are driving @Booming to lash out in this way have passed IRL, we may actually start to enjoy the contributions.

Remember, it was years before Miles could even stand to be in the same room as Julian.

Whenever I see a post by @Booming, I'm reminded of Melora.

MELORA: Doctor, if you came for an apology, I apologise.

BASHIR: Apology?

MELORA: My speech wasn't intended to attack you personally.

BASHIR: I'm sure you never set out to attack anyone personally, but you do seem to attack a lot.

MELORA: That's rather insensitive of you, Doctor.

BASHIR: Julian. I'm no longer your doctor.

MELORA: I see. You've decided I need a friend.

BASHIR: Was that an attack? You see, you do it so well, with such charm, it's hard to tell.

MELORA: I really don't mean to.

BASHIR: Sure you do.

MELORA: I beg your pardon?

BASHIR: Of course, you mean to. All of these broad shots you fire it's your way of keeping the rest of the universe on the defensive. Has to be. You're too good at it.

Give it time @OmicronThetaDeltaPhi.
Faith Manages.

https://youtu.be/T0936wvW6rQ?t=77
Jammer
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 10:49am (UTC -6)
Dear People Asking Me To Shut Down People They Don't Like:

No.

If you don't like them, ignore them.

You're welcome.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 12:32pm (UTC -6)
Whoa, Jammer!

Was that slap in the face of the people who care about your community really necessary? "asking me to shut down people they don't like"?

If you don't have the time to properly deal with the situation here, fine. We understand. But please, don't just rudely dismiss people who are telling you that your house is on fire.

Our complaints have absolutely nothing to do with "people we don't like". It has to do with the basic rules of civil discourse, which are rapidly evaporating here.

At let me tell you something else:

If I were a troll, or any other person looking for trouble, I would take your comment as an open invitation to wreck havoc on your site. Trolls *love* it when moderators do this.

You might as well posted "Trolls and pests! Come on down to party on my site! You have my blessing and nobody will stop you! And if anybody complains, you won't even have to mock them because I'll do it for you!".

Seriously, if you can't think of a way to make the situation better, you could at least refrain from making it worse.
Rahul
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 1:08pm (UTC -6)
FWIW I agree with Jammer -- I'm not in favor of censorship, as distasteful as I used to find Boomer's comments. I posted a few months ago that once it became clear to me (years ago) that Boomer is frequently abhorrent, offensive and just a pathetic troll, I essentially blocked him/her. It is a bit of a pain at times to just scroll past his/her comments and the replies of his/her Boomlets (who ever came up with that term -- I tip my cap to you) but it works for me. Anyhow to each his own for enjoying this forum. But I'd avoid censorship, cancel culture and that whole speech police nonsense.
Booming
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 1:28pm (UTC -6)
@Rahul
And I will continue to enjoy your posts which not only enrich but amaze.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAJ7Xn5vndk&ab_channel=WeedPouceEnVille
Peter G.
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 1:38pm (UTC -6)
@ Omicron (and anyone else bugging Jammer to do this or do that),

Jammer's policy has long since been known, been clear, and been successful. What purpose could there be to call attention to what you'd like him to do, other than just that - to call attention to yourself? Enjoy the forum, man, and let be. You will never escape from trolls no matter where you go, and here there are few of them. But push the issue and one ends up being the thing one is complaining about. Think about it!
Jammer
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 1:46pm (UTC -6)
Dear People Claiming My House Is On Fire:

It's not.

That may be your opinion because you don't like how things are going here or can't ignore a troll or two, but you don't speak for everyone, despite your frequent tone implying that you do.

Also, thanks for the warning that my audacity to answer why I don't censor someone on my own board constitutes an "open invitation to wreck havoc" on my site. That speaks volumes. Thanks for clarifying. I really appreciate it.

I also really appreciate the concern trolling. I'm glad you care about this site more than I do. Thanks for coming in to save me from 25 years of mismanagement, the first 12 of which had no commenting feature at all.

I will now go back to my usual role of writing reviews and not commenting in the comment threads.
zanki
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 1:57pm (UTC -6)
@SlackerInc

One of the hosts had a Starfleet 2399 uniform
Booming
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 2:04pm (UTC -6)
Thank you Rahul and Peter G. for your support of a free and open forum.

Rahul, while I often deeply dislike your posts and wasn't fond of your recent insults, at least you have principles. I respect that.
wolfstar
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 5:22pm (UTC -6)
"You will never escape from trolls no matter where you go" - I think architecture plays a huge role in the prevalence thereof. I don't go on Star Trek forums and don't use social media, so maybe my impression of this is off, but the web feels less troll-y in general than it used to. These days everything from Facebook and Twitter to Youtube comments sections and Reddit has some form of upvoting/downvoting or like/dislike system, which means that even communities that aren't directly moderated have a sort of self-moderating system, and anyone who persistently acts inappropriately is sufficiently downvoted by other community members that it disincentivizes them from acting that way, especially if they get so many downvotes/dislikes that their comments are hidden from view. This helps non-troll posters too, as it helps set clear boundaries if someone steps over the line intentionally or unintentionally. (ie. if I normally get likes/upvotes when I post on a site, but I say something that gets fiercely downvoted or ratioed, I know that I've made a mistake in the eyes of the community. This makes it clear what forms of speech are and aren't acceptable, and discourages me from doing so again. There are also mechanisms for people to reach out to each other privately.) The fact that so much of the modern web architecture operates on this model, for obvious reasons, means that people who want to act outside of those boundaries seek out other forums that allow them to do so (e.g. 4chan etc.)

I know Omicron got into quite a few arguments when they first started using this site, but certainly in the past 2 years they became one of the most thoughtful and constructive commenters (of which there are many), and I hate to see this framed as if they're the problem simply for reacting to/failing to ignore a self-confessed troll and for making an appeal to authority. I'm fortunate not to be in this position, but I'm very aware of the fact at the moment that we're in lockdown in the middle of a pandemic which - on top of general social atomization and the loneliness crisis even before Covid - means that engaging on this site or on other forums or social media might be some people's only regular social interaction, which is partly why feelings are heightened, why people take abusive posts personally (and in some but not all cases, why they make them), and why everyone (including me, in case anyone thinks I'm being hypocritical or trying to speak for everyone) needs to try and de-escalate as much as they can. My $0.02.

I haven't seen any of Discovery S3 and don't have Netflix/CBS.
Jason R.
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 5:39pm (UTC -6)
FWIW I have never been bothered by shows like Discovery upping the representation of previously underrepresented or unrepresented groups. Star Trek has always done this.

But I am not surprised so many white or white identifying people are getting up in arms about it. As critical theory and its various branches seep into mainstream discourse, with race, sexual orientation and other intersecting identities being the axises of oppression on which all of culture, art, law and politics rotate, it was an inevitability that whites would get in on the grievance game. If colour blindness is a sin (which it most certainly is in CRT etc...) then it is inevitable that all people, whites included begin perceiving all things through a colour sensitive lenses. Some are going to cowtow and check their privilege or whatever and some aren't.
Booming
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 5:42pm (UTC -6)
"in case anyone thinks I'm being hypocritical"
I never said that I'm a troll. But considering that you were the first to call for bans your support for Omicron's ban fantasies and his insults towards Jammer, which you apologetically call "appeal to authority", is really a new level of hypocrisy.
wolfstar
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 6:36pm (UTC -6)
I never called for you to be banned nor do I think you should be, neither did I say I agreed with everything Omicron wrote; what I have done is directly ask you to stop behaving hatefully to people on here. Your comments on many of the episodes are good and constructive (e.g. Let He Who Is Without Sin) were it not for your constant firestarting. I didn't post here for over two months and only intervened when I saw you were attacking someone again and no-one else was defending them, including once again attacking Rahul including making comments about his ethnicity. Perhaps I shouldn't have done that because I don't think Rahul or anyone else here needs me to defend them, but I hate it when everyone just stands by in the face of the kind of comments you make about people. I am completely bored of this. I used the word "troll" because you've stated in the past here that you start arguments for your own entertainment. Viel Spaß dabei.
Mal
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:09pm (UTC -6)
Bravo @Jammer! This is why I've been reading your website for 20 years, and commenting since the day you first opened these threads.

For those of you who have only been here a few years, first of all, things will eventually work themselves out - this is not the first time emotions have been inflamed.

For reference, here are @Jammer's rules for comments:

https://www.jammersreviews.com/info/commentpolicy.php

The one that really jumps out at me is so simple,

"Maintain a civil tone."

As Picard might put it:

PICARD: And yet he chose this way of life. He has made the same commitment to @Jammer's Reviews that we all have. It's easy to transfer a problem to someone else. Too easy.

LAFORGE: Captain, it's not like I haven't tried.

PICARD: Try harder, Geordi. He's a member of your team. Try to find some way to help him to make a positive contribution. Get to know the man better. Make him your best friend.

LAFORGE: With all respect, sir, my best friend? I can barely tolerate being on the same message board with the man.

PICARD: Then I suggest you put your personal discomfort on one side, Commander. Dismissed.

This is the way.
Sam
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:35pm (UTC -6)
@Jason R.
"FWIW I have never been bothered by shows like Discovery upping the representation of previously underrepresented or unrepresented groups. Star Trek has always done this. "

True. The question is, for what reason has it done this?

In TOS the purpose of having Uhura on the bridge along with Chekhov, Sulu, Kirk wasn't to exhibit diversity but to show that, in defiance of 1960s social norms, appearances shouldn't be an obstacle to what we can do. That they don't matter, they are not who we are. We are not diverse because we are all the same.

When someone views TOS and sees that there isn't a person of Arab descent, there are no gay people, no trans people, and sees that as a problem, you can't help but think they didn't get that message. If we feel the need to include every shade of skin color, we are saying appearances do matter. Instead of identifying with the shared aspects of humanity, we're reverting to identifying with what separates us. If so, then there will always be somebody feeling excluded, since no matter how large the cast and crew, we cannot include every permutation and combination of appearances.
Sen-Sors
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 8:16pm (UTC -6)
"When someone views TOS and sees that there isn't a person of Arab descent, there are no gay people, no trans people, and sees that as a problem, you can't help but think they didn't get that message."

Has anyone actually done that in any of the STD S3 threads? Seems like the bulk of the discussion is on whether or not STD is going "too far" with their diversity casting.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:42pm (UTC -6)
@Mal

I don't recall Barcley maliciously and openly abusing his crewmates (the holodeck doesn't count).

Intent is the key here.

And I gotta say I got a chuckle out of your "Bravo" to Jammer. Maybe refraining from a ban would have been praiseworthy, if it had followed from a clear policy that is actively implemented.

But it doesn't. Jammer's response was nothing more than a kneejerk reaction which could be summed up as "I really don't want to think about this sh*t, stop bothering me. Go deal with this mess yourself".

I guess this is understandable. Actively moderating an online forum is a very emotionally taxing job, and I doubt Jammer realized what he is getting into when started these forums.

So I can't really blame the guy for his habit of running to hide under a rock whenever things heat up here. But awarding this paralysis with applause is a bit much.

@Wolfstar

Thank you.
Booming
Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:58am (UTC -6)
@wolfstar
Omicron and his possy insult me all the time far worse than I ever did. I guess that didn't bother you.

"because you've stated in the past here that you start arguments for your own entertainment"
I never said that, as well. I said that I enjoy heated arguments.

Here look at the comments of the poor innocent Omicron.
"I don't recall Barcley maliciously and openly abusing his crewmates" I maliciously and openly abuse people. Captain self awareness has me all figured out

And now Omicron gives Jammer permission to be pissed about his insults
"Jammer's response was nothing more than a kneejerk reaction."
What a hero.

So let me add to Omicron's thank you my own. Now enjoy your Neville Chamberlain biography.
Trent
Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 4:11pm (UTC -6)
IMO this was another excellent episode, and under showrunner Michelle Paradise the show continues to correct the problems that persisted when Kurtzman was fully in control of season's 1 and 2.

Indeed, I'd argue the shift in quality here is akin to the shift seen in TNG season 3 and DS9 season 3. Yes, "Discovery" is yet to produced the stone cold classics that TNG and DS9 had by this point, but Paradise is climbing up from a deeper hole than Piller and Ira Behr ever did. Piller and Behr didn't have to reconfigure their whole casts. They didn't have to drastically rejig the aesthetic of their shows. They didn't follow an utter hack like Alex Kurtzman.

And so props to Paradise. She's making numerous vital corrections to the tone, style and mission statement of the show. Right away, she gives us better camera and compositional work, better mis-en-scene, and even better sets, the "Discovery" brighter, and more inviting, with new tables, new decor, and homier rooms.

You actually want to live and spend time on Paradise's ship. It literally looks better, not just when viewed from the inside, but outside as well*, her choice of exterior establishing shots - the Discovery framed in long shot, or granted languid panning shots - a hundred times better than the garish compositions seen during the Kurtzman-controlled seasons.

(*Let's be honest: the Enterprise-D was butt-ugly from many angles. It took time to figure out how to shoot it right and make it look stately and majestic. And the Discovery is similarly butt-ugly when looked at in certain ways. But Paradise-Trek has started finding those good angles.)

There are numerous other changes. Where Kurtzman-Trek was angsty, angry, violent and dark, Paradise-Trek is lighter, kinder, gentler. Where Kurtzman-Trek is manic and hyper-kinetic, Paradise-Trek is slower and more graceful. Where Kurtzman-Trek was snarky and ironic, Paradise-Trek is sincere and gently funny. Where Kurtzman-Trek goes for Big Moments (The End of the Universe!), Paradise-Trek teases drama out of smaller incidents. Where Kurtzman-Trek used its characters as props to propel plot, Paradise-Trek puts character first, and actively interrogates Michael's need to "repeatedly take on burdens" (this episode directly criticizes her for repeatedly "saving the universe and "putting herself center stage").

Similarly, where Kurtzman-Trek utilized hacky "puzzle-box" narratives, Paradise-Trek goes for character pieces, and stories that are largely self contained (yes, there is an overall arc, but the episodes work well as singular episodes, with clearly defined goals and resolutions).

And of course then there's Michael. Michael was a poorly acted, poorly written, wildly emotional, largely unlikeable character throughout much of season's 1 and 2. But aside from the Kurtzman penned opening to season 3, almost everything about her now works. She's softer, she's endearing, she clicks with everyone well and she looks awesome in her dreadlock-Riker-beard. There's none of that Michael/Ash crap, and none of that Michael/Lorca machismo or Michael/Spock goofiness. In Paradise's hands, the character works.

In short, whilst Kurtzman-Trek is the product of Hollywood super hacks, Paradise-Trek seems to belong to an artist of some integrity. Someone who cares about and genuinely loves the material and the franchise. In a way, the show now feels like "The Orville"; like a polished, cheery, reasonably good emulation of 90's era Trek tropes, slightly updated. The show's not as pioneering as TOS, TNG and DS9 were (or Kurtzman Trek in a sense; after all "Trek for Michael Bays fans" is sort of "new"), not as radically inventive as they were, but Paradise has created a respectful base to work with and climb upward from. Trek is fun again. It's likeable again.

Which is not to say this episode is perfect. It's not. Detmer's dinner table meltdown is over-the-top and unbelievable. Stamet's response to her likewise. The show continues to be too saccharine and sentimental, overcompensating for season's 1 and 2 by "overly stressing" how close the crew are. And Adira's visit to Trill - reminiscent of the DS9 episode "Equilibrium" - utilizes a tired cliche, Adira and Michael "lost in a dream sequence" in which "a repressed past truth" is confronted and then revealed, all while surrounded by CGI tentacles evocative of similar scenes in Miyazaki's masterpiece, "Valley of the Winds".

The episode's climax, cribbed from the Orville (the crew watching a performance in the hangar bay), which cribbed from TNG/TOS/VOY's similar-but-smaller scenes, is similarly too cute, Stamets and Detmer hugging while the crew watch a projection of an old comedy.

But these are minor problems. And you sense that these little problems will be fixed. You sense the show recalibrating itself, tilting in the right direction, and now smart enough to tilt back after recognizing any over-compensations.
David Fox
Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 10:26am (UTC -6)
A solid four-star outing for me, and for my money the best episode of the entire series so far. This is what Star Trek is to me, not all the pyrotechnics, light shows, and *endless* boring shoot -'em-ups and fist fights we've been enduring up to now. I almost gave up on the series after the first episode of Season 3. This episode was sincere, beautifully executed in both the A and B plots, and heartfelt without being too maudlin (and yes, the series has been guilty of going over the top in that direction, too). The episode also beautifully addresses much of the trauma we are experiencing during a challenging and tragic year...many, if not most of us, are experiencing what this crew is going through here. Just glanced at a few of the negative and bigoted comments above and quite frankly, I pity you deeply if that is the tiny world you live in. You certainly have no business watching any Star Trek series.
Austin
Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 7:25pm (UTC -6)
A good 3 star outing for me. I think a better episode would involve some revenge and instead of Saru having Georgiou for dinner, Saru would have Georgiou FOR dinner. I didn’t buy the romance between the boy who identifies as a girl with the girl who identifies as a them, but maybe that says more about me than the writers? Or maybe the acting just wasn’t that good? At any rate, the story was nice, and to answer a question posed by a commentator earlier: I don’t think we’ll be seeing a Trill Burnham any time soon. Remember the Symbiotes have to choose their host. I don’t foresee an intelligent creature choosing a constant sacrificial lamb as their host.

I brought out in a previous episode posting how this season reminded me of the fall of the Roman Empire. I think maybe that’s the source material for a lot of this season. We’re seeing the former territories of the Federation, which here is portrayed like a utopian hegemony, and what they’re like post collapse. Some turn toward strict spiritual beliefs like the Trills, and some turn toward an isolationist militarism like Earth. It’s a nice retelling of history imho. Best season yet so far. Still not great, but still the best one yet.
Mal
Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 8:03pm (UTC -6)
@Austin wrote, "I didn’t buy the romance between the boy who identifies as a girl with the girl who identifies as a them, but maybe that says more about me than the writers? Or maybe the acting just wasn’t that good? At any rate, the story was nice"

Adira is 16. The actor playing her is 23. When I think about my romances between the ages of 16 and 23, sometimes even I don't buy it - and I was there ;) Such is adolescent love.

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