Star Trek: Discovery

"Far From Home"

2.5 stars

Air date: 10/22/2020
Written by Michelle Paradise & Jenny Lumet & Alex Kurtzman
Directed by Olatunde Osunsanmi

Review by Jamahl Epsicokhan

I'm so glad to learn the aesthetics of 19th-century saloons, complete with batwing doors, have survived into the 32nd century. That's some staying power. And that bad guys come strolling into such saloons with an imposing swagger as the camera makes a point to show us their jangling boots before showing us their faces.

There's a scene midway through "Far From Home" that screams out: Hey look! Space cowboys in a space western! At the risk of setting up an expectation where I will make one Andromeda reference per episode this season (don't count on it), I couldn't help but think of that series' "Last Call at the Broken Hammer," which also had a futuristic saloon with batwing doors, albeit infinitely worse production values.

"Far From Home" is about on par with last week's outing — maybe a little bit better because it features an ensemble cast that allows it to have more scope. But at the core of the storytelling is an unfortunate fallback upon fairly worn tropes. TOS was initially envisioned as a space western — and there's something to be said for dropping our characters into the middle of a gritty wilderness that keeps them off balance — but I'm waiting for this season to really hook me and reel me in, and I guess I'll have to wait yet another week. Half this episode is fifth-season TNG technobabble starship disaster recovery with people crawling around Jeffries tubes, and the other half is a claustrophobic single-set western where our characters find themselves having to help the locals overcome their regional bully.

Don't get me wrong. There's some good stuff here, most of it involving now-Captain Saru, who is the Trekkiest of this Trek's characters, always well played by Doug Jones. And it appears other actors aside from Sonequa Martin-Green and David Ajala got to go to Iceland to film these exquisite location sequences; if you're going to amortize your travel expenses, you might as well get the bang for your buck and get two episodes' worth of footage.

The episode shows us Discovery's POV in arriving in the 32nd century, which includes an elaborate crash-landing sequence on an icy world (after first careening through an asteroid field) that's at least as impressive as the Enterprise-D crashing in Star Trek: Generations. With the ship damaged and without main power, and now threatened by "parasitic ice" (which begins growing around the ship and putting it into a deep-freeze from which it may never escape), Saru takes Tilly on a walk outside the ship to go meet the locals and ask for help. This is not likely to end well, but there are not great options.

They arrive at the aforementioned saloon and strike a deal with the local residents, including Kal (Jonathan Koensgen), who helps bring our characters up to speed on what's happening here in the 32nd century — there's no dilithium, the people have old ships but no way to power them, and so they're cut off from all supplies and interstellar travel without the help of couriers who control all the commerce and hold all the leverage, and aren't particularly nice about it.

This colony is under the thumb of a courier named Zareh (Jake Weber), who sadistically kills Kal for helping the mysterious visitors because he's a lousy SOB in a space western. Weber plays this villain with an air of jaded intelligence that the script itself doesn't provide, which I guess is something. These scenes functionally allow us and the characters to learn more about how this century operates, but it would be nice if the writers could figure out a fresher angle of coming at it than "hostage situation" and "bar fight."

Enter Georgiou, who is more capable of playing this game at its chosen level and meets violence with violence (using the requisite martial arts after the villains allow themselves to be disarmed) and turn the tables against the bullies and put their fate in Saru's hands. Georgiou of course wants to kill them because she's a bloodthirsty antihero, but Saru sticks to the Evolved Sensibility Playbook and puts Zareh's fate in the hands of the locals, who banish him to the frozen wilderness at night with no transportation, which may be a fate worse than a quick death. Seems about fair.

Back on Discovery, we get Stamets and Culber reaffirming their relationship, and then Stamets getting back on his feet following his injury and coma from last season's finale. He's teamed up with Jett Reno, which is good for some dry sarcasm and verbal fencing, although the writers would be wise not to put this character (as they have Georgiou) into a perpetual gear where a single personality trait defines her. The starship-based scenes play as decent, straight-down-the-middle, ensemble Star Trek, although without doing much of anything new or riveting. But we see a ship full of crew members working toward a common goal, and that's always a welcome mode on this series.

The episode ends with the reveal that the approaching vessel in orbit is actually Burnham's ship, coming to the Discovery's rescue after long searching for them, a full year after she herself arrived in this century. This temporal twist has the potential of getting us up to speed and to the meatier aspects of this season's storyline much more quickly. But it also has the potential to deny us the joy of discovery about the new paradigm, and instead gives Burnham a lot more information than we or any of the other characters have, which could lead to a lot of narrative gaps and shortcuts and Burnham-at-the-center-of-all-things storytelling, which are unfortunate hallmarks of this series. So it will be interesting to see how they handle this in the coming episodes.

Some odds and ends:

  • No western would be complete without someone getting a bottle smashed over their head during a bar fight. In this case, Tilly gets to do the smashing. Call it character growth.
  • Detmer, injured during the crash, goes to sickbay, is told she is fine, and is promptly discharged and sent back to her post. She is still dazed and clearly not right, and what's wrong is not resolved by the end of the episode. We're clearly being set up for something more here. The fact that we can tie a smaller supporting player like Detmer to an actual plot point is a positive development.
  • I don't know if it's the braids or something about Martin-Green's performance in the final minute, but Burnham's temperament seems somehow more soft/serene in the way she greets her shipmates. Has the past year given her some time to find some Zen-like peace?
  • Rachael Ancheril (Commander Nhan) has been elevated to series regular, as of this episode's opening credits.
  • Last week's episode was called "That Hope Is You, Part 1," but there's no "Part 2" this week, or any other week this season. I'm guessing this is the producers being coy and they will provide "Part 2" sometime in season four under circumstances of notable significance?

Previous episode: That Hope Is You, Part 1
Next episode: People of Earth

◄ Season Index

201 comments on this review

Cody B
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 4:25am (UTC -6)
And just like clockwork episode 2 brings us to the rest of the crew and quite a bit of the hope of episode one is dashed out. Okay here’s some thoughts. First just end any continuing plots from previous seasons. I don’t even remember why Stamets was in a coma. Just simply have him come out of it (they did) without any super powers or he has amnesia (yet to be seen) or whatever Kurtzman has thought up. Okay next problem is Georgio. Axe this character. She is not believable as a villain at all. Don’t care anything about her backstory, the black leather is cringe, the acting is bad,just please end the whole character for good. Bye bye. Now Tilly. Tilly makes Neelix look like Einstein. They might as well just have Tilly walk around in a clown outfit and makeup. The schtick sucks. We get it. Just a fun and ditzy girl out here in space! Please get rid of her or drastically fix the character which I don’t see happening. Now with all that said I did not hate this episode. Actually I think it’s still a step in the right direction. It’s just that once we went back to the rest of the crew this week it was a huge reminder of what this show was (I don’t want to use the word ‘is’). The preview for future episodes didn’t exactly fill me with hope but we will see.
Startrekwatcher
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 4:34am (UTC -6)
2 stars

A step down from the Premiere which was pretty meh itself. Just spun its wheels for an hour. The DIS crew I could care less about except Saru. This felt like filler. Amazing TNG had twenty six episodes a season and rarely did I feel like writers didn’t have a narrative urgency and point in the episodes they filmed. Yet with half as many episodes and a supposed serialized format the writers strain to tell interesting, intriguing, fresh and compelling stories. This was just taking up airspace. Nothing more. Worse yet it felt recycled. Been there. Been there done that better
Tim C
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 5:02am (UTC -6)
Far more interesting than Part 1, I feel. One of the best parts of Star Trek is watching a group of professionals work a problem, and in that respect this episode was catnip as we watched the crew pull together to successfully land the ship and then get it off the ground again.

More importantly, though, it felt like there were genuine stakes in this episode. Not comic-book save-the-universe stakes, but just the fate of a few bullied locals, which was far easier to engage with as a viewer. I didn't know how our still relatively newly empowered Saru would deal with this sort of situation, but I enjoyed watching him go full Starfleet on it.

I didn't really care about last week's episode, because it was basically just watching Burnham superhero her way to an inevitable victory. At no time did I feel like she was in danger or that the situation was going to get out of hand, and that makes for dull TV.

The wildcard of Georgiou is a welcome addition to the Disco crew, I think. But her character as currently depicted is too quickly able to fight her way out of a problem. If she's going to be kept around, then let's dial her back a bit and give her some actual challenges to overcome.

Nitpick Of The Week: why does *every* Star Trek show with a "oh no, this vital system is WRECKED!" episode conveniently forget the hangar full of shuttlecraft that usually have some kind of identical component? Hand-wave away this solution in the script if you have to, but geeeeeeeez after watching the show for pretty much my entire life, I'm very tired of this particular trope.
Karl Zimmerman
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 7:52am (UTC -6)
I enjoyed it more than last week's episode, but it still wasn't great...merely average.

What I enjoyed -

By far the best aspect of this episode is seeing the shipboard interactions between the Discovery crew. We get to "check in" with everyone who is still remaining on a ship, right down to characters like Bryce which were barely bridge furniture even in Season 2. Indeed, I feel like the episode peaked kinda early because the opening scenes of the crash and recovery were so strong, because we got to see a Starfleet crew working together to solve problems collectively. I wish we had a whole episode of that TBH.

Because so many characters were re-introduced - from Nhan to Linus to Detmer) - we really didn't get the chance to have a cohesive B plot this week. But Stamets got a nice mini-story regarding not being able to accept his medical limitations during his recovery.

What I hated -

Georgiou is just awful and nearly ruined the episode. Her hamminess as a character is just completely tonally off here compared to...everything else which is going on. Her early scenes were reminiscent of someone farting audibly in a large conference room - just embarrassing. This isn't of course because they're badly acted, but they just do not belong in this episode as scripted/portrayed, and result in a massive inability to suspend disbelief on my part. The worst part by far though was her explanation of why she came to the future. She didn't want to stay behind because they'd make her head of Section 31, and she hated bureaucracy??? She was the friggin Empress, she would do anything to get more power. Presumably this is a cover story because she doesn't want to admit it was due to her (weird) feelings for Michael, but it rang so hollow.

Star Trek has always been far from scientifically rigorous, but I never thought we'd see an exploded planet with a large chunk taken out of it...which somehow has not transformed into a molten ball and still has a breathable atmosphere. At least Tilly recognized how weird it was - presumably some future tech is involved. Again though, it kinda took me out of just "enjoying the show" early on and put me into nitpick mode.

Mixed feelings -

The bog standard western plot (complete with saloon doors and a bad guy wearing spurs) was...bog standard. It was a strange choice tonally considering this is supposed to be The Future and presumably the writers want us to think it's an alien place. But it did the job more or less.

Not sure how I feel about the "parasitic ice" thing. Trek has had worse science in the past, and I'd like a bit more technobabble to explain what the hell was going on, but I can live with it I suppose.

Finally, the baddie explicitly mentioned "V'Draysh" twice, which is presumably the word for Federation in the pidgin language he mentioned. This is the term that Craft used in Calypso, which means they are going to tie that Short Trek into continuity. My heart dropped a bit at that, because I've really not wanted that sweet standalone story ever really explained (and it has logistical issues which would require an episode of setup). On the other hand, if the uptime Federation is the V'Draysh, that at least means that Craft was really a "bad guy" - which I am happy about, because the idea that we had to make the Federation evil just because Craft was a good person was box of hammers stupid.

I'd still rate it - despite the slight improvement - 2.5 stars under Jammer's model. Not enough of an improvement for a three star episode IMHO.
Mal
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 7:53am (UTC -6)
Far From Home

Star Trek: Discovery
Season 3 Episode 2

Mal’s review before Jammer’s

“I need you out of there alive. So I can kill you.”

- The sweetest moment this hour, between Hue and his idiot patient.

3 stars (out of 4)

A solid hour of back-to-basics Discovery. Nothing surprising. Just enough plot to reintroduce our characters. And I have to give the episode huge props for not falling for what must have been so, so tempting: Tilly with a Data-like “Oh shit” as the ship crashes into the planet. Bravo!

Each character - and damn it, for the very first time, every actor seems to be playing an actual character - each character had a clear line of action for the hour. Each line of action followed directly from the character herself. I mean, what more can we ask for?

Saru was good as always. He has been one of the rare points of light for this show from day 1, and it is nice to see him completely embody his character as he guides the crew through what is essentially a disaster recovery episode. I particularly enjoyed his interactions with Georgiou when Georgiou tries to divert Lt. Bryce from his repair work. Poor Bryce, he was so confused. It was actually a critical interaction, allowing Saru to assert control over the ship and her crew. There are too many Commanders on this ship (Burnham is too). I honestly can’t believe Captain Pike sent them off without a clear chain of command.

Tilly did her Tilly thing. But Saru is right - she is disarming, and makes for a fine first impression, if the first impression you want to give is that we pose absolutely zero threat ;)

For making a threat, we have Georgiou. She was fun to watch. Here’s a woman who ran an empire in a far more cruel universe. This shit is child’s play for her. It will be fun to see what she does. I know the confines of TV means that she will probably stay with the ship. But in reality, how long to you think it would be before she ditched these losers, took Nhan, and went off to found a second Terran Empire?

Which brings us to Nhan. She’s not the sharpest tool in the shed. I can see why Pike thought she would fit in with this lot.

For once Stamets and Hue made a lot of sense. Their scenes together were very credible and touching. Throw in Jet’s one-liners, and you can see that even in the worst of situations, people can have a gay old time. What??

I get that not everyone will appreciate the wild west saloon setting for the action this week. But I have Mal as my nom-de-plume, so you can guess where I fall on that one.

Even the most peripheral characters have a decent beat. I already mentioned Lt. Bryce. Lt. Rhys gets to take the con (Harry Kim could not be reached for comment). Robot pilot chic (Lt. Detmer) gets the nice PTSD arc which actually reminded me a lot of The Battle of the Binary Stars two years ago, in which Connor sort of wandered around shell shocked. I’m guessing Detmer was released from sick-bay prematurely and we’ll probably see some lingering effects. Even Owo’s 5 seconds this hour were put to good use, hugging Detmer. She needed a hug.

And of course Linus (aka, elevator guy ripped off from Orville) gets a fun beat with Georgiou, in which Georgiou uses Linus to execute an Irish goodbye. Which is like the 10th time I’ve name-checked Georgiou in this review. Yes, I like her. So sue me.

So all in all, I’d say Discovery has managed to land in the 32nd century essentially in one piece. And now that everyone is reunited and it feels to good, they can go on to restore the Systems Commonwealth, the greatest civilization in history.
John
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 7:57am (UTC -6)
Not bad! I liked this episode, and I was one of those who didn't think much of last week's. I'm almost wishing the crashed ship scenario could remain for a few more episodes without reuniting the crew with Burnham just yet. I liked watching the teamwork, the crew dynamics and different personalities, and less action oriented plot which felt much more classic Trek. Hopefully most of that will stay and the first episode was an exception.
James Smith
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 10:22am (UTC -6)
This felt a bit like a season 2 show in all the worst ways. But ranking right up there was the bollocks with MirrorGeorgiou stomping Leland's corpse into organic mush.

Showing Leland's brain matter on her boots? Graphic, pretty unnecessary, but it didn't last long and hey - they 'needed' to show that she's evil, because TV audiences are apparently short-memoried and require this sort of thing reiterating. To then show Leland's remains getting scraped up? Wholly unnecessary, turning what was an attempt at drama into an attempt at shock value for no good reason.

MirrorGeorgiou is a complete waste of Michelle Yeoh. The sooner the character buggers off out of STD to a Section 31 series the better.
Cynic
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:02pm (UTC -6)
I hope I'm wrong, because it would be truly idiotic, but I'm calling Detmer infected by a remnant of Control. She has cybernetic parts after all, like Airiam, a long-dead and previously Control-compromised character randomly mentioned in this episode. Even before Detmer weirded out, I thought that the levitating dust on the bridge at the beginning looked an awful lot like the nanites that came out of Leland when he expired, as shown in the "previously on..." scenes just seconds earlier...
Norvo
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:03pm (UTC -6)
Watching the episode I can only conclude this would have served so much better as the season opener than the actual first episode we got last week. The mystery of where Michael is was already solved for the viewers...

And speaking of Michael... Was it really necessary to have her be the one to rescue Discovery? We know she's supposed to he the one true hero of the show but Saru and the others deserved a win of their own. As it stands, all their valiant attempts to get themselves free are pointless because Michael would have showed up anyway. It's just bad storytelling.

And can we please give Tig Notaro more to do than spout snarky oneliners. She's capable of so much more.
Chrome
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:31pm (UTC -6)
Can't really get into it. Part of what I didn't like about Voyager was how separated the ship was from Earth and the established Star Trek universe.

It was nice to see the crew again and all but without Starfleet and some familiar Trek territories, this just feels like a Star Wars clone. Maybe that's what they're going for, but I don't think it will satisfy fans of the older Trek series.

Anyway, I have another free month of All Access so I might keep grudgingly watching this, but so far I prefer the other Trek shows including PIC and LD.
Startrekwatcher
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:44pm (UTC -6)
The problem is the whole draw for most fans of going to the 32nd century should be about the status of all the civilizations and races TOS, TNG and DS9 introduces and explored. We are invested in the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Andorians, the dominion, the vulcans, the the Bajorans etc

You could spend a whole season on how things have changed. The dynamics. The shocking fate of some of them maybe. But so far zilch

The other interesting thing of moving to 32nd century is showing some wild imaginative sci fi. Instead we get western bar. That’s tired especially for the far flung future of the trek universe.

Tos and tng gave us holodecks, replicators, transporters, androids, salt vampires, shape shifters

And when discovery visits earth it should be as alien as Vulcan or Trill. It shouldn’t be recognizable. Even daniels made some rather interesting and cryptic hints about earth in the 31st century. If it turns out to be recognizable or feel like home the writers will have dropped the ball
CaptainMercer
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 2:17pm (UTC -6)
I like violent films depending on context. Why does Trek have to be so gory? We start a scene with them shoveling brain matter from the floor. People are shot by futuristic shotguns? We see multiple close ups of nasty bloody injuries. It was tasteless nonsense. And none of it mattered. This was not Star Trek. This was B grade science fiction with the depth of Van Dam's Cyborg
Name
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 3:57pm (UTC -6)
I liked this one. It felt more “Star Trek” to me than last week’s episode because it was about a starship crew. I’m really looking forward to seeing where the show goes. I also like how the show illustrates the idea of cyclic history - we got an utopian future in the 23rd & 24th century, but then it went into decline because the one material the entire starship industry was built upon turned out to be very important.

I don’t see why they called it a two-parter, though. It felt like two separate episodes instead of one long episode.

I’m looking forward to seeing how they handle the federation reformation (or even if that will end up being the goal of the crew). I’m very, very glad that s4 will be made, and where they will go with the 32nd century exploration.
Tommy D.
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 8:22pm (UTC -6)
Because I'm 100% sure people will still be watching "The Wire" in 3188, shotguns will persevere. Even space cowboys are going to want to be Omar.

For "Far from Home", I would say probably another 2.5 star outing. I thought the opening crash was well done, and the once again the filming location for the miners camp was spectacular. The saloon scene seemed to carry on a bit long, but I thought the programmable matter was neat. I think it was fun to see all the characters on the ship interact and have something meaningful to do to get Discovery back up, but as a whole I think the episode was just okay.
Maya
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 8:31pm (UTC -6)
I liked it better than last week`s episode. The western-ish style was quite well employed and I got to see my girl Tilly, so I was happy
Tomalak
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 9:47pm (UTC -6)
Tilly is almost unrecognisable now given how much weight she has gained since season 1. That's not a criticism - no reason people in the future wouldn't struggle with their weight. But it's almost like the difference between Scotty in the Original Series and Scotty in the later films - and it's not exactly been twenty years.
Peremensoe
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 10:14pm (UTC -6)
@Name

It is two separate episodes. This was not "That Hope is You, Part 2," about Burnham's intervening year.
GreenBoots_
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 10:35pm (UTC -6)
I think this episode cements the idea that Burnham is by far the worst aspect of Discovery for me. No weepy monologues about vague ephemeral concepts means a solid hour of tension, character beats, and some decent action- a roomful of people with a handful of guns will always be 1000x more intense than a billion space ships pew-pewing at each other in the vacuum of space, no matter how many secondary characters you send careening over the control panels. The guy playing the villain was quite good, I thought, and brought some weight to those scenes they would've otherwise lacked. Not that this episode was perfect, I felt the Stamets-Reno B-plot was pretty perfunctory, some pacing issues, and the needless drudging up of plotlines from season 2 was eyeroll inducing. It's still not what I consider good Star Trek, it's still missing that je ne sais quoi, but between the bar scenes and the crew pulling together to manage a crisis in a way that felt semi-professional, I actually enjoyed this one a decent amount as just an hour of scifi television. 3 stars.
Rahul
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 10:36pm (UTC -6)
Definitely stronger than last week's episode -- just felt more "realistic" (within the Star Trek paradigm) and what I really liked was Saru holding true to Federation ideals, taking charge as a captain and showing leadership and resolve. I think the way Saru was written doing these things was much better than, say, Janeway in a number of VOY episodes.

It's a fairly simple story but I liked how effectively it was conveyed. Again, the visuals are incredible and the whole ship crashing scene at the start of the episode appeared more realistic and gritty than anything from classic Trek -- guess there can be improvements over 20+ years.

Only one part really pissed me off -- when Georgiou shows up and kicks ass after getting phasered multiple times. Give me a break. Some baddie's 32nd century weapon doesn't totally fry her like Kal was fried earlier??

I'm not a big fan of the cast and crew of Discovery but at least this episode allowed us to catch up on all the important ones -- and we can see their unique characteristics; however, all those characteristics are dialled up to 11, which is excessive. Tilly -- again excessively ditsy, Reno excessively snarky, Nhan excessively useless, for example. But I found Reno this time to be more tolerable -- in a way, she's like McCoy on steroids with the snark. Not sure what's up with Detmer -- impressive how she is thrown over her console during the crash.

I liked how Saru dealt with Georgiou in a number of scenes. He was the star of the episode and I liked it much more because the whole thing didn't revolve around Burnham. I am not a fan of the Burnham character, nor am I a fan of SMG's acting. The writers have gone too far with trying to make Burnham the protagonist.

The premise here is decent. That dilithium is some valuable commodity in this post-apocalyptic world with ex-members of the Federation (Tellarites, Andorians, Coridans etc.) seemingly in little factions after "The Burn". Also, interesting that Burnham has been in this time a year already...

Good enough for 3 stars for "Far From Home" -- plenty to like here (the exceptional visuals most notably). Held my interest consistently, unlike "That Hope Is You, Part 1", which bothered me for stretches. Look forward to seeing a replay of this one -- could not say the same for last week's outing. I think DSC needs to get the viewer to appreciate its main cast some more and this outing should do that. Nothing excessively stupid -- just an overall solid outing.
Dick
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 1:26am (UTC -6)
After last week's off-format premiere, this felt like a return to the usual STD fare. Frenetic, over the top action, gratuitous profanity and gore, and a crew full of snarky, unlikeable characters (Saru excepted).

I was done with Evil Georgiou in Season 1, and it's distressing how big of a role she continues to play in this series. I've seen her described as a "fan-favorite", but the character is just awful: a one-dimensional comic book villain who is totally unsuitable as a member of a Starfleet crew.

I continue to be confused by the personal transporter technology featured in Season 3. Saru, Tilly, and Georgiou use it to transport directly from the Western bar to the Discovery. So why didn't Evil Dude just beam directly onto the ailing Discovery with his posse, shoot everyone, and steal the dilithium? Or was that the plan all along and they were just messing with Saru and Tilly?

I am slightly intrigued by Detmer's condition (she is one of the more likable characters). Is it just a concussion or PTSD? I can't believe that they'd rehash the Airiam plotline and have Detmer infected with Control, too. Okay, I can believe it.

I liked the reveal that Michael has been stranded for a year before Discovery arrived through the wormhole. Should be interesting to learn what she's been up to. (Book must have used his nanotech to create some hair extensions for her new do.)

Stray thoughts:

* It's pretty impressive that the Discovery and its crew managed to remain intact when it crashed into the glacier. The last time we saw a starship crash into an icy planet ("Timeless" (VOY)) everyone on board died in the impact!

* Why doesn't Saru immediately place Georgiou in the brig once the Discovery crash lands? There's no reason why this evil and manipulative character should be given free reign of the ship now that Section 31 is no longer around to protect her.

* The Evil Dude in the Western bar (didn't catch his name) claims that The Burn is the best thing that ever happened to him. So is he supposed to be over 100 years old? There's no reason why he couldn't be, but he sure doesn't look it.
Lodged Warpedo
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 1:47am (UTC -6)
@Tomalak

No, Tilly is not at all unrecognizable. And what a very weird thing to comment on. If you say it’s not a criticism, then what exactly would you call it? Just an observation? You really couldn’t bring anything better to the table? Guess not.
Wesley's pyjamas
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 3:39am (UTC -6)
Did anyone catch what the purpose of using the phaser during the crash was meant to be? I think Saru said something about cushioning the impact, but how would that work? It couldn't be by applying inverse force to the ship, because that would mean anytime a phaser is fired the person or ship would be propelled backward. The only other thing I can think of is melting the ice.
Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:16am (UTC -6)
LW, I find Tilly's weight gain very striking so I observed it, yeah. It's not a criticism because some people do get way fatter over time - so I don't think you can call it a plot hole or something. I sense that you think it's off bounds even to talk about this on a message board but you can't quite explain why?
Booming
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 9:32am (UTC -6)
I thought this was an ok episode. Better than last week which I found just plain bad. This should have been the first episode. It has a little too much going on. Stamets is sick; Murder Ice; Federation nostalgia guy (who gets killed); Wild West Bar something; Saru vs Psycho lady; Detmer vs something (I really hope she has just a trauma and not some stupid Control lives on IN HER)

But all in all I was mildly interested and found a few parts enjoyable. Tig Notaro made me laugh a few times. The setting was interesting, though I'm worried that we are already past episode two and still know almost nothing which in this episode was excusable but still, what is going on.

In this episode the Star Trek value drops didn't as artificial as last week. A little bit more believable.

- the music choice is still odd. When Stamets and the doc talk (two scenes) which I believe were supposed to be touching, there is this low key action music playing. Normally that kind of music would play during something like a planning or preparing scene.
- More torture porn. Was it really that long suffering really necessary to establish that the bad guy is bad?
- "What are you doing? You are in Jeffries tube." Haha
- The dialog sometimes feels marvely. It makes sense in superhero movies because a living god like thor has a different view on danger but here it feels off. If my husband was bleeding out in a jeffries tube I wouldn't do banter. And why the hell could not some ensign take two things out and then put two things in. This scene feels very unnecessary. Or when the bridge crew member say something like: "Enemy ship approaching." Why does he say that? I mean I get why. To trick the audience through artificial stakes which leads to the big reveal. Burnham is back and immediately over-emotes.
- Question: Why do they let the leather queen run around freely? Don't they know that she is a mass murdering psychopath?
- Why does she have leeland on her shoes, wasn't he just tiny nanites???

As an aside. I'm always fascinated about how much I have already forgotten about season 2.
Booming
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 9:38am (UTC -6)
Man, I should have proofread this.
Ruomyes
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 10:13am (UTC -6)
@ Rahul
"The writers have gone too far with trying to make Burnham the protagonist."

Trying to make?

Burnham IS the protagonist, just like Picard was/is the protagonist. Just like Sisko, Janeway, and Archer.
Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 10:22am (UTC -6)
I think that's the difference. None of the above had anything like the same focus and screen time as Burnham gets, despite them being the ones in charge unlike her. All the previous Treks were more balanced shows. This would be forgivable if she wasn't such a tedious character, but instead we get a poorly acted scientific genius, sage military strategist, excellent warrior, perfect daughter to Sarek, sister to Spock and friend to Tilly all rolled into one. It's as if Riker had Worf's combat skills, Data's abilities and Troi's empathy and dominated the screen time.
Yanks
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 10:30am (UTC -6)
I enjoyed it.

I'm worried for Detmer. Can't believe Saru sent her to sick-bay unescorted. It was clear she wasn't all there. I'm even more puzzled that Pollard just waved a magic wand and sent her on her way. I hope this is a medical issue, not a leftover Control issue.

I thought the crash was well done. It should be a case study for seat restraints.

Georgiou... I like the thorn in the side role she is going to play here, but let's clean up her line please? Everything doesn't need to require the twirl of a mustache. I had no problems with her taking care of business in the bar(?). She's handled much worse on a regular basis before. So, no Section 31 series? I did find it a little weird that Saru assigned her to repair something... since when does she ever fix anything?

Tilly... just love her. I liked that Saru chose her to go with him on the quest for Rubidium(?). Her exchange with Saru during their walk was genuine and definitely in character for both. I think we may have seen some character growth for Tilly here. I think she was forced to grow up a little.

Saru... Another great performance by Doug Jones. He is obviously strong in Star Fleet and Federation ethics/values. I do think he should take a different approach to how he uses Georgiou. He is in heavy react mode. He should be more forceful in getting her involved in the decision process from the start. Like it or not, she can see the big picture and tactical environment better than he can right now. I like how he stood up to her in the bar. I'm not sure I was expecting that from him.

Jett... Love her humor. Why didn't she get a pain shot in sick-bay? I equate her humor to the EMH's from Voyager. I hope they don't overuse her just as comic relief; they did that on occasion with the EMH. Too much of a good thing ruins the good thing. Please give her a position. Chief Engineer? Her snarky disrespectful comments to the Ensign HAZMAT cleaning up Leland's remnants weren't funny and unneeded. Did we really need to see this clean-up? Can't you just set a phasor to a low setting and disintegrate it?

Stamets/Culber... A little tired of the only time we see Culber it's a lovie-dovie scene with Stamets. Is he the Chief Medical Officer or not? If cell-regeneration was so critical for Paul, he should have knocked him out so he could get the treatment. Strapped him in? Stamets of course had to save the day... but a monkey could have crawled in that Jefferies tube and completed that lego repair.

Everyone else... the best part of this episode (Like STB) was how everyone got involved. Credit should be given to Saru for this (and the writers). Hopefully, they continue this as we move on. I really want to learn more about all of them.

The bad guys... Zaher was played quite well I thought. I also like how he deduced information with regard to Discovery. I'm guessing he killed Kal(?) because he aided time-travelers? ... or just because? ... someone always has to die in Discovery you know. I don't think we will be seeing him again.

Programmable matter/personal transporters... pretty nifty. I'm sure more cool technology will reveal itself as we progress through the season.

The only part of the episode that I really didn't care for was that Michael had to save the day. Just when I thought the writers were going to make her more human, in she sweeps saving Discovery.

Discovery's visuals are again off the charts good. I think this was all shot in Iceland.

I honestly thought Michael was going to have longer than one year to wait for Discovery. I like how the downtrodden in this time period long for the goodness of Star Fleet/Federation.

I'm going to go less than last week here. 2.5 stars.
Yanks
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 10:35am (UTC -6)
Did I hear this right? Is Linus the Saurian a female?
GreenBoots_
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 11:14am (UTC -6)
@Wesley's pyjamas
I think the idea is that they're breaking apart the glacier so it crumbles on impact. If you're about to slam into a giant slab of ice at a sufficiently high speed, either the ice is going to break, or your ship is going to break. The phasers were meant to ensure that the ice was weak enough that it was the one that broke.
Chrome
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 11:29am (UTC -6)
Startrekwatcher wrote:

"The problem is the whole draw for most fans of going to the 32nd century should be about the status of all the civilizations and races TOS, TNG and DS9 introduces and explored. We are invested in the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Andorians, the dominion, the vulcans, the the Bajorans etc

You could spend a whole season on how things have changed. The dynamics. The shocking fate of some of them maybe. But so far zilch

The other interesting thing of moving to 32nd century is showing some wild imaginative sci fi. Instead we get western bar. That’s tired especially for the far flung future of the trek universe."

Totally agree. I mentioned something similar last week, and it's unfortunate that this show spends more time with pulpy action than thoughtful worldbuilding. I get that the writers want to distance themselves from the source material so as not to tie their hands, but at a certain point they need to still come up with something that's still familiarly Star Trek.

One really has to wonder what the Mission Statement of this show is. Is it just to make something vaguely futuristic and include a few Starfleet logos and a random speech about cooperation?
Burke
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 11:33am (UTC -6)
Just one quick note about Netflix:

I watch a lot of Trek on Netflix, and I haven't seen a single thing about the new season. No ads on the front page, no notifications, nothing. I had to do a search to make sure they released the episodes. Weird.
Booming
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 11:54am (UTC -6)
Yeah Discovery is now eighth in the German Netflix Top Ten.
Rahul
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 12:57pm (UTC -6)
@Ruomyes --

Yes, Burnham is the established main protagonist -- my statement should have been written as:

"The writers have gone too far with *how they try to* make Burnham the protagonist."

What ends up happening for me, is they make Burnham do incredible/jaw-dropping things that eventually work against the character (maybe like a Wesley Crusher syndrome) -- and what happens is the one I wind up respecting far more is Saru.
Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 1:09pm (UTC -6)
Yes, deprived of Burnham it feels more like a Star Trek episode and less like a superhero movie.
Al
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 1:27pm (UTC -6)
Have to agree with Cody B about the tiresome Georgio. And the plot felt like a re-hash of last week! Crash land on unkown planet, make contact with locals at a lawless outpost, have a bit of a cavort with some nasty fellows and then all is well.

They have all the ingredients they need to do something really good here - I just hope someone can come up with a decent recipe.
Yanks
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 1:31pm (UTC -6)
Maybe I'm not correct here but being the protagonist of the show doesn't mean that person needs to be the end all be all and "save" everything every time.

Standing by to be corrected.
AMA
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 2:00pm (UTC -6)
A pretty mediocre episode overall, worse than last week's.

It was nice to see the crew coming and working together, but there is little else to take away from the episode, except that the villain courier will almost undoubtedly make another appearance this season and the alien contingent and their ships will likely come to the aid of the crew in the future and join a slowly expanding Federation.

Was frustrated by Stamets, who effectively put the ship in greater danger by not passing off necessary repairs to another crew member (notably the name-checked Nilsson); and continue to dislike Georgiou, who has largely been given a pass despite having tyrannical tendencies. Would not be surprised if, as part of the Federation's rebirth, Georgiou becomes the head of a new Section 31 and the new series, if it still comes to fruition, is set in the same time as Discovery.
Booming
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 2:09pm (UTC -6)
I think the problem many have with the Burnham character is that she is not just the protagonist ergo the person who drives the story forward, no, it goes far beyond that. She is the story. In season 1 it was about her starting a war and then ending that war. In season 2 it was about her sending herself messages about how she has to save the galaxy. Season 3 seems to be about her rebuilding the Federation.
James
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 3:13pm (UTC -6)
So, I enjoyed this much more than the season 3 opener, so much in fact that I think they could have dropped the first episode and started with this one. From what we've heard, they're in the future for good which is exciting. It's basically a chance to redo voyager as it should have been 😁

I especially liked the opening sequence to this episode. It really reminded me of the Voyager episode 'Timeless' but done much more fantastically well. I'm not quite sure of this georgiou yet. I actually thought she'd started to become more Starfleet like towards the end of season 2 so I am kind of annoyed to see the way she's going on in this episode.

Over all it episode 2 does set a good president for the future if the series. Let's just hope it doesn't get too bogged down.
Atymiss
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 3:17pm (UTC -6)
I enjoyed this and was thinking how much better Discovery could be without Burnham only...for her to turn up "I found you!" Yes of course it's all about YOU luv.

I didn't mind Georgiou. I think she was there as a foil to Saru, also about showing Saru asserting his authority. And actually maybe there is something to be learnt from Georgiou, would they have actually escaped the situation in the bar without her?

I'm guessing Section 31 still exists in the future.

A nice (NOT) fat shaming comment about Tilly. Was that really all you took away from this episode?
Eric Jensen
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 3:29pm (UTC -6)
A better episode than last week's, in terms of the Star Trek feel
1. All working together
2. Sticking to their principles - Saru was excellent here.
3. The skeptical native of the planet held up the end of his bargain... sadly his colleague died
4. What is up with Detmer?? During landing, she was thrown off, over the console...
5. Georgiou needs better lines or something... it was lucky she was out there scouting the planet and it was due to her that they managed to escape, apart from
6. Burnham at the end using the tractor beam... nice surprise
7. Reno was good
8. Georgiou is better suited for section 31 but it is not cohesive... not flowing...
9. Could Burnham and Book end up leaving Discovery?
10. Why is Georgiou wearing a star trek uniform in the trailer?

Better than last week...
Programmable matter in the future? Interesting...
Eric Jensen
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 3:32pm (UTC -6)
"It really reminded me of the Voyager episode 'Timeless' but done much more fantastically well."

Timeless was good! And saying that, slipstream was mentioned last week...
James
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 3:41pm (UTC -6)
@Eric Jensen

Timeless was an amazing episode but I meant the opening of this episode Vs the crash in Timeless. I'm rewatching the season 2 finale and going to watch season 3 episodes 1&2 again.
Startrekwatcher
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 3:50pm (UTC -6)
I can’t stand Burnham. And Book’s Cat is a much better actress than Sonequa martin

Frankly the cast could have been jettisoned. They’re all uninteresting cardboard cutouts. If the writers are smart they’ll do two things. One create and introduce more interesting characters played by better actors this season who can slowly replace the current cast. And two lean hard into world building. There’s fifty years of built in love for Andorians, Tellarites, Bajorans, Vulcans, Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans etc. shifting to large scale Focus on Trek civilizations along with history and inter species dynamics of the 32nd century would help tremendously
Cody B
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 5:40pm (UTC -6)
I see some people talking about Tilly’s weight. There’s nothing wrong with noticing she’s gotten fatter and mentioning it. Firstly as an actress it’s what she signed up for. People look at you. And besides that there was a whole character arc where she was supposed to be running and losing weight. She steadily got bigger through that as well. At the end of the day I really don’t care but it’s just one more thing to add to the unbelievability. A well disciplined officer that’s supposed to be at the top her game with an elite crew wouldn’t balloon in weight while doing missions
Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 6:36pm (UTC -6)
For those with short memories, Tilly looked like this just two seasons ago: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/b2/87/dbb2873441ae2843ea16e96ef2e03a48.jpg
Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 7:11pm (UTC -6)
IMO this was one of “Discovery's” better episodes. The show usually bores me, but this gripped from the start, and reminded me of “Project Daedalus” and “New Eden” in season 2, two episodes not centered on Michael, and which worked well to flesh out the crew.

And so “Far From Home” opens with the Discovery crashing into a kind of corpuscular, fractured planet, whose little fragments are floating about. We get some bad CGI as the ship crashes (director's need to stop wasting money on such crash scenes; they never look right), and then a very heavy-handed, ill-placed and overly emotional speech as Saru informs the crew that they're in the future, alone, lost, but will nevertheless triumph because they're a family, and love each other, and will work together to do what's right and OMG FEDERATION VALUES!

When Discovery tries to do such scenes they're never earned, always cringy and always unconvincing. Stop saying these guys are a “family” who “work together”, and just show us them behaving this way.

In comparison, look at how Janeway handles learning that her ship is lost and disconnected from the Federation. Ensign Kim tells her they're suddenly on the other side of the galaxy, and she shows no emotion, gives no speeches, and doesn't even pause. Instead she immediately begins working the problem and barking orders. It will be an hour and a half later till Janeway gives her first pep talk...

JANEWAY: Did you ever consider allowing the Ocampa to care for themselves?
CARETAKER: They're children.
JANEWAY: Children have to grow up. We're explorers too. Most of the species we've encountered have overcome all kinds of adversity without a Caretaker. It's the challenge of surviving on their own that helps them to evolve. Maybe your children will do better than you think.

...and its point is made tangentially and indirectly. It's not on the nose. It doesn't beat you over the head.

But still, there's lots of good stuff in “Far From Home”. The episode spends the next ten minutes lingering on different officers and different departments. For the first time, Discovery feels like a ship populated by crewmen. Everyone's hustling and bustling and knee deep in their own tasks.

We then get a segment in which Stamets and Culber profess their love – a bit corny and heavy-handed (this show is way too emotional!) – followed by Saru and the Mirror Empress arguing in the briefing room. Saru, hoping to find spare parts, wants to make “first contact” with a nearby settlement, but the Empress wants to go guns blazing and take what they need. Saru makes another heavy-handed appeal to NOT ABANDONING THEIR IDEALS and FEDERATION VALUES! The Empress laughs at his naivety.

What's bizarre is this show's inability to stop insisting upon “the importance of Federation values!!” when the Federation is only 80 or 90 years old when these characters lived within it. And the last time they saw it, the Federation was murdering Klingons, burying WMDs, torturing tardigrades, and trying to kill them all with Section 31 ninjas. What “Federation values!!!” has the crew of the Discovery – a blackops ship once run by a psychopath - ever experienced?

But Saru gets his way, of course, because Saru is our captain. And as a captain he's outstanding, not just as a character, but as a narrative tool: he lends the episode a kind of structure and backbone. IMO he's a better person to centre an episode on, than Michael, who's always flailing about and wildly emoting. Saru's your rock. People revolve around him well.

And you need a rock, because this crew is a mess. Tilly has now been fully Flanderized, all stammering tics and fidgets and snarky dialogue. Such irony and snark is shared by Jett Reno (Tig Notaro), who's always cracking jokes and being sarcastic or rude ("I've already forgotten your name"). Stamets has always been this way, but now Culber is too (“Bring your ass over here so I can kick your ass!”), and of course so is Mirror Empress, who is always dementedly wisecracking and swearing. Everyone's so unprofessional, so “cool” and “postmodern”, and spews so much contemporary phrases, that you need a character like Saru to keep a lid on the crazy.

We next watch as Saru and Tilly hike to a nearby settlement. They share a nice quiet conversation, but then Saru gives another heavy-handed pep talk (“You're wonderful, Tilly!”), which makes Tilly cry. During these scenes, we get cool shots of the Discovery being “strangled” by “parasitic ice”, and great shots of alien settlements jutting from rock faces, and giant excavating machines on the horizon.

Saru and Tilly then enter a Old West Saloon (the swinging doors are a transporter device), where they haggle for spare parts, observe some cool far-future technology, and get into bar fights with some generic bad dudes. Saru gives another FEDERATION VALUES!!! speech, and gets his ass kicked for it. Luckily the Mirror Empress turns up to remind him that FEDERATION VALUES!!! don't apply to the real world. But they do rub off on others, it turns out, for a local guy inspired by Saru ends up sparing the life of a bad guy.

Then it's back to the Discovery we go. Here Jett Reno continues to act snarky (“I'm on so much drugs!”), while an injured Stamets bleeds to death in a Jefferies Tube as he tries to fix some kind of thingy. Why didn't they ask a non-injured engineer or crewman to crawl into the tube and fix the thingy? Probably because they're all high.

The Discovery then tries to take off. Before doing so, Saru gives yet another heavy-handed speech about TOGETHERNESS, FAMILY, and FEDERATION VALUES!

Unfortunately these warm values don't melt parasitic ice, which continues to strangle the ship and so keeps it pinned down. A hokey looking CGI sequence then takes place, the ice “growing” as the ship tries to break free. Luckily the Great Savior of the Universe, Michael Burnham, miraculously arrives just in the nick of time. She rescues everyone and saves the day. This scene rubbed most people the wrong way, but Michael grinning with happiness on the bridge viewscreen worked for me. Mommy's home! The family is together again!

With Michelle Paradise, Discovery now has a new show-runner. IMO the two episodes she's overseen thus far have flowed better than previous episodes, and have centered around pleasantly lower-stakes.

To get better, Discovery needs to keep doing what this episode has done. It needs to dial back the Michael, keep Saru making the command decisions, dilute Georgiou's cartoonishness by pairing her with Saru, and strive to flesh out its ensemble. To further improve, it needs to dial back the jokes and the snarkiness. These are professionals. They shouldn't be speaking this way.

Part of me believes Paradise has diagnosed the show's problems and is slowly tweaking it. But I thought the same thing when "New Eden" aired, and subsequent episodes proved otherwise. It will be interesting to see how the show plays now that Michael's been reunited with the Discovery. My fear is that, since she's been in this time longer than the rest of the crew, she'll be constantly offering info and details and steering their behavior.
Sen-Sors
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 7:13pm (UTC -6)
Gergiou has always been an awful, ill-fitting character dating back to season 1. She was a tyrant ruling over a brutal empire, a real Queen Bitch of the Galaxy in every sense, but then she takes up a mid-level position in a Starfleet black-ops outfit because "it's so much fun"? Please.
Booming
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 7:19pm (UTC -6)
What are you saying? that overweight people cannot be in Starfleet?!
Scotty and Jim, have you heard?!

https://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/8400000/Scotty-scotty-8484427-720-530.jpg

https://bmj2k.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/turnabout.jpg
MTF-HA
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 7:32pm (UTC -6)
There is nothing wrong about noticing an actress’s weight. There is something wrong with constantly harping about it, and mocking, bullying and teasing her online, and saying that the fictional universe she is in - a made-up Fantasia that (as so many here delight in pointing out) changes the rules as it goes along-imposes a maximum weight requirement.

See how “but I am just pointing it out” sounds when saying it to the actress’s face. Oh wait. Any circumstances under which you would see her require some minimum of social interaction and decorum. Never mind.

Find something else to criticize.

For so many people here, that should be easy.

It is a pleasant fall evening tonight, in some parts.

Some of the posters on this site is so full of hate. And I don’t just mean hate-watching hate.

Make The Federation HATE Again “!
Skye Francis-maidstone
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 7:51pm (UTC -6)
Better than last weeks by default since it had less Captain Marvel in it. I think I gave that a 3 out of 10 so I'd have to nudge up to a 4. Nothing even approaching good though.

Liked:
- Saru (Although he seems a little naive as a leader)
- Detmer. Nice to have a crew remember who acts professionally.
- looks glorious in all its 4k beauty as ever
- semi-enjoying idea of 3100 and all new things
- almost no Burnham

Hated:
- Most of the crew. Did they have any Star Fleet training? I've worked in some crappy jobs in my youth where people were more professional that those idiots. Snark snark snark. It's tiresome. The Expanse crew are more professional and they're from a crappy Ice Hauler.
- Western in the Ice complete with bar room brawl.
- Burnham saving them complete with annoying grinning.

Meh:
- Tilly. Getting old fast now. Not her age either. Please just act normally now rather than flitting into comedy mode.
- Why is 3100 so bleh so far? They have a free reign to do whatever and this is it so far? Hoping for more imagination soon.
- Nhan, maybe she'll be ok? Not looking promising so far.
- Why can everyone identify an 800 or so year old thingy at a glance? Maybe it's as common as a wheel or something I guess.
- How was the ship suddenly fixed so fast? It was a complete wreck then it looked almost perfect. Maybe I missed something though. My eyes started to glaze.

It was a diverting enough 50ish minutes. I was a bit bored though which is rare for DIS since it's so fast paced.
Cody B
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:24pm (UTC -6)
@MTF-HA

Not one person was rude or “full of hate”. Not until you that is. Don’t know at all what you’re talking about bullying actresses? No one has done that or will. 🤚 May I please comment that a character on a television show went through a weight loss arc but physically gained weight? Do I have your permission?
Cody B
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:30pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

I guess there’s somewhat of an argument there with Scotty and Kirk but not really. Kirk was never fat. He gained a little weight as he got older but never looked like he wasn’t in reasonably good shape. Scotty almost never left the ship and again any weight gain was as he got older. Tilly on the other hand specifically went through an arc where she was supposed to be losing weight and getting fit yet over two years has ballooned. If we were talking 20 years like the TOS crew from show to the movies I wouldn’t bring it up. Also there’s the fact that a show in the 60s wasn’t treated as serious as shows today. Today a television show is considered “real acting” and even what’s shown and written is supposed to be a little more realistic.
Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:31pm (UTC -6)
Tilly's supposed to be chubby. You're supposed to notice her being chubby.

The show's going for ultra diversity, all the main characters black, gay, latino or Asian, with Tilly the plump, body positive token character.

______________

In this episode, the Mirror Empress asked Linus (the big eyed alien) about his eyes, and then took him aside. What was this about? How did Linus help her?
janeway fan
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 8:56pm (UTC -6)
I wonder why they didn't include any trans or genderless crew members in that diversity. That was and is still a very much alive topic, in the US at least. All the other types of diversity Trent mentioned are nothing new for Trek.
Trent
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 9:50pm (UTC -6)
Janeway fan: "I wonder why they didn't include any trans or genderless crew members in that diversity. That was and is still a very much alive topic, in the US at least."

Trans and non-binary characters are being introduced this season, and I believe one is a Trill.
Peremensoe
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 10:10pm (UTC -6)
Trans and NB characters are expected this season.

I don't recall that Tilly was ever stated to be losing weight, let alone having a "weight loss arc" story. I thought she was trying for a "physical-endurance commendation" - apparently successfully, as she was then accepted for the command training program for which that was supposed to be an assist.

"The show's going for ultra diversity, all the main characters black, gay, latino or Asian, with Tilly the plump, body positive token character."

And that would be the most classically Trek thing possible. Right?
Frank A. Booze
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 12:28am (UTC -6)
I am glad to see that so many people also cannot stand Georgiou. For some reason I thought she wasn’t with Discovery when they went into the future. I pretty much did a Darth Vader “Nooooooooooo!” when I realized I was wrong. She is just so corny. It would have been like having Mirror Kira permanently on DS9.

Get her off the show immediately.
dave
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:01am (UTC -6)
Re: Tilly Weight comments

In storyline, its inconceivable she would gain that much weight because that would mean being an unprofessional officer by not working out and blowing your meal plans out the window.

In real life, its unprofessional she would allow that to happen considering this is her current career to play a professional officer on a ship.

Outside of her job and her storyline, in the real world, its her body and she looks great. So I think that doesn't matter in that view. BUt like i said, in storyline or as her professional career, it seems quite amazing she would not take it more seriously.
Sen-Sors
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:26am (UTC -6)
Earlier people were noting that STD-era Starfleet's notable values include planting bombs on planets, installing sockpuppet leaders on said planets, and animal torture. I submit that immediately funneling the former ruler of the Terran Empire into Starfleet black-ops, a position of great power and influence, is right up there in terms of clarifying values.

I think Michele Yeoh is a good actress and even now she is doing the best with the material given to her. The original Georgiu seemed like a promising character and a solid captain, but she, like Lorca, had to be sacrificed on the altar of Burnham. Now she's a cartoon villain who sticks out like a sore thumb; she's a murderous sociopath but the show seems to think she is also lovable and endearing, I think? Because she has fun with all the murdering she does? I dunno. It's bizarre.

At this point the best Mirror Georgiu can hope for is a pleasantly cliche death in battle while Micheal looks on making the Burnham-face. If they seriously go for reforming the Terran Empress into a model citizen because she's Micheal's new mommy that will make me feel sad, mad and overall bad.
Sen-Sors
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:37am (UTC -6)
Actually no, the best thing they could do with Georgiou this season would be to make her the big bad. What reason does she have to actually care for this Micheal Burnham? Why wouldn't she want to rebuild what was taken from her? How exactly does she share Starfleet's values? Actually don't answer that. The point is Micheal has to kill her and make the face. It's perfect.
Mike
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 2:44am (UTC -6)
There's no need to kill off or remove Georgiou. It's sometimes good to have a regular antagonistic/villainous character whose behavior is erratic (think Q, Baltar, Dukat, Weyoun, Bester) so having Saru lay down the law with her and tell her to behave or she's in the brig would add some dimensionality to her character, and conflict among the crew. It's not like she's genetically predisposed to act that way, and I think she's one of the better actors/actresses in the show.

On Tilly: Has it ever been suggested in any Trek episode that performance of Starfleet duties requires a body with low fat percentage? Or is this just speculation, like Trump's assertion that trans people in the military are a burden. Technology has already rendered many of the body's functions as obsolete in our time, so it's not hard to envisage the body as wholly obsolete in the future.
Atymiss
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:11am (UTC -6)
@Mike
Very good points.

Wasn't Riker distinctly 'on the large side' after the first few seasons of TNG? I don't remember Picard taking him to one side and telling him for the sake of his Starfleet career he needed to slim down.

The older Scotty was enormous, he was still the best engineer though!

Wouldn't some alien races be naturally different standard sizes to the perfect human? Bolians seems quite chubby. Should they not be allowed into Starfleet?
Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:36am (UTC -6)
"What are you saying? that overweight people cannot be in Starfleet?! Scotty and Jim, have you heard?!"

This would be a more persuasive criticism if I hadn't compared Tilly's weight gain to Scotty's in my first post above. As I said, it doesn't seem crazy to think characters would have weight problems in the future - although it is striking how fast Tilly has ballooned. Scotty in TOS Season 3 in 1969 v Undiscovered Country in 1991 is a big difference, but a lot of time had passed in reality and in the show. DIS S1 v S3 is a couple of years. They could reference it or they could ignore it. But instead, as Cody notes above, amusingly they reference how much fitter the character is getting even as she balloons in weight.
MidshipmanNorris
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:49am (UTC -6)
The chewy chunks being scraped off the floor in engineering look suspiciously like prosciutto... other than that, I don't have time to talk... and now I want a sandwich, lol
Booming
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 4:01am (UTC -6)
I think Trent is onto something. Maybe they actually told her to gain weight. Americans are very fat. Maybe she is pregnant. This debate is far more interesting than her actual looks.

@Cody

"I really don’t care"
Clearly.

As others have pointed out. She did not have a weight loss arc. THey showed her once running. Her weight hasn't been mentioned on the show.

"Kirk was never fat. He gained a little weight as he got older but never looked like he wasn’t in reasonably good shape."
*cough*
https://tvseriesfinale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/star-trek-VII-generations-02-4.jpg

I instinctively want to move away from him here because that belt thingy looks like it is about to explode and take out several crewman!

" Today a television show is considered “real acting” and even what’s shown and written is supposed to be a little more realistic."
ehh what?! It is just different body standards.

I also love that the weight watchers here always start with giving themselves permission by saying that it is ok to talk about it. Rarely a good start.
Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 4:37am (UTC -6)
"On Tilly: Has it ever been suggested in any Trek episode that performance of Starfleet duties requires a body with low fat percentage? Or is this just speculation, like Trump's assertion that trans people in the military are a burden. Technology has already rendered many of the body's functions as obsolete in our time, so it's not hard to envisage the body as wholly obsolete in the future."

I think episodes like the Learning Curve in S1 Voyager and the DIS one referenced above make clear that physical fitness as we would understand it today is still an expectation. But obviously they seem to be laxer about it with experienced officers like Scotty - which is realistic when you see a lot of top military brass on TV today. I don't think it's some big plot hole in the show, but it's extremely noticeable that Tilly has quickly gone from this:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/b2/87/dbb2873441ae2843ea16e96ef2e03a48.jpg
to this:
https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Ensign-Tilly-In-Saloon.jpg?resize=800,534

It's interesting from a world building perspective what we think about all this. For all we know she has been disciplined off screen. In reality of course, it's probably just that the producers are too woke/scared to tell the actress to lose weight the way they did with the much thinner Sirtis in the 1980s.

Boomer, no one needs your permission or anyone else's. This board discusses all kinds of big and small issues and character arcs, sometimes in episodes filmed more than 50 years ago. The idea that character weight gain is off limits is your weird hang up, not ours. If you can't take it or can't say anything other than "you can't talk about this!", maybe this board isn't for you?
Booming
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 5:09am (UTC -6)
@Tomalak
"The idea that character weight gain is off limits is your weird hang up, not ours."
Are you off your meds, sweetheart? I never said anything of the sort.

"If you can't take it or can't say anything other than "you can't talk about this!", maybe this board isn't for you?"
Cancel culture much?

I was just pointing out a behavior pattern. So how about stopping your little psycho hissy fit.
Cody B
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 5:13am (UTC -6)
@Booming

Why do you have to be antagonistic? My reply to you was friendly and respectful. I don’t know why enjoy arguments
Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 5:29am (UTC -6)
I certainly enjoy debating too - but I am going to do my best to ignore all the "are you off the meds, psycho" stuff and stick to discussing the episode. You, Mike and Atymiss have all made interesting points on the Tilly arc and it's all far more interesting.
Booming
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 6:03am (UTC -6)
@Cody
I know you and your relationship with the femoids.

"I don’t know why enjoy arguments"
Did you ever participate in a debate where you didn't paint yourself as the victim?(That is a rhetorical question)

"but I am going to do my best to ignore all the "are you off the meds, psycho" stuff and stick to discussing the episode."
I will certainly not forget that you insulted me... ok I probably will but I will try not to. *vindictive smiley*
Latex Zebra
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 6:48am (UTC -6)
Apart from the "Burnham saves the day" at the end I pretty much enjoyed this episode.
Not off to a bad start and I am looking forward to seeing Earth soon.
Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 7:27am (UTC -6)
Maybe someone could use video editing software to do a Star Trek Discovery with all the Burnham moments cut or replaced where necessary by a believable, interesting character? It would still be no DS9, but it would be much superior to the current offering.
Yair
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 7:40am (UTC -6)
@Mike

"On Tilly... Technology has already rendered many of the body's functions as obsolete in our time, so it's not hard to envisage the body as wholly obsolete in the future. "

In many plausible futurist universes you'd be right. In the Trek universe where 'sending unescorted senior officers in apparently unaltered human bodies to explore planets' happens a lot for some reason, physical fitness matters.

We wouldn't have to change much in this episode to have Tilly go back alone to the discovery over 'parasitic' ice, and a more nimble and lightweight Tilly should have had a better chance of surviving that.
Yair
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 8:12am (UTC -6)
Liked this more than the previous episode, the crew is actually acting as a crew, Saru gets the command role he so obviously deserved, and the villain is good (well, bad) enough. Even Michael's big smile at the end works. Not great but good enough for a second episode.

* Note that even the Hazmat repair guy named himself. A cute self-referential joke.

* Georgiou shouldn't be here for too many reasons to count. She's there to introduce tension, but the result is just tonally off. There's no good reason for her to be there or to be tolerated like that, and the bad guy should have just shot her.

* Stamets actually had more characterization in S1 than in the other seasons. He hated serving on a warship, liked Opera and was critical for the plot piece (which will hopefully stop existing forever). Right now, he's defined only by his relations with Culber, and his poor health (both from S1). The character could use actually doing something again.

* I give 95% odds that the villain just hangs around the house until the Feds are gone, and then goes back and either him or the other person in the house die.
Ruomyes
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 8:33am (UTC -6)
I love the fact that Burnham is a rebel. Georgiou is a rebel. And that Tilly is a rebel. And Saru's planet's evolution was rooted in rebelling against the status quo. In this day and age rebels are needed in Trek. If it's causes discomfort, then it's doing something right, IMO. The 'stable familiarity' that a lot of (older) fans want, that is part of what caused Trek-fatigue back in the day, I think. The repetitive format, the reliance on the hierarchy as a mode of storytelling, just, no. Trek doesn't need the lead character to be the captain. They don't need to be one with the (quasi-military) hierarchy. DIS (and PIC) contain characters who try to do the right thing despite the hierarchy, not because of it. It keeps Trek from getting stale. It reminds me of what Ira Behr said in the DS9 documentary, something along the lines of "It's DS9, don't get too comfortable."

If the new Trek programmes are trying to encourage us to feel, and feel more, it's because qualities like empathy are sorely needed in today's world, now, if there is ever to be a future world like Trek.
Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:12am (UTC -6)
Georgiou is there to teach us viewers empathy?
Startrekwatcher
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:17am (UTC -6)
The problem is the new series aren’t generating any sort of emotional reaction. There’s no investment in the characters or their plights or jeopardy they find themselves in. Scenes don’t slow down to breathe to let you get engrossed in them or the people featured or any kind of human reaction. Because the actors aren’t that great. The characters are cyphers. The writers don’t imbue them or the dialog or the scenes with any kind of insightful or relateable human moments. It’s all mechanical and to serve the bigger mystery and arc which themselves are so badly plotted and clockwork like in just going through the expected motions

It sparks nothing but indifference. kurtzman Trek is hollow. It’s as artificial as the green screens and overdone VFX.
John
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:38am (UTC -6)
The Inner Light, Darmok, Tapestry, The Visitor, Duet, Tuvix, Dear Doctor... the old Star Trek sure as hell didn't have any emotional, empathy building episodes, did it?
Chrome
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:45am (UTC -6)
@Tomalak

"Georgiou is there to teach us viewers empathy?"

Yes, clearly everyone is overreacting to Georgiou's intermittent murder sprees and not seeing that deep down inside she is a beautiful unique snowflake we all can relate to.
dave
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 1:31pm (UTC -6)
They have something with Saru. A good actor who has more depth than anyone else on the show, and a very interesting character they could go deep with as far as the change he undergoes no longer feeling fear, etc.

They could write him to be one of the iconic characters in Trek and carry the show.

But, with this being a shallow action adventure comedy show, they are missing that opportunity.

I hope they get the message by Season 4.
Nick
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:42pm (UTC -6)
Does anyone else think the burn may have been caused by Burnham and/or Disocvery as they moved forward in time? Meaning they inadvertently caused all the dilithium to explode as they passed the point in time when the burn happened? The explanation would have to be a bit contrived but it would be predictable from a storytelling standpoint cause it links everything together. I personally hope they don’t go down this road because it would result in the inevitable reset button but it seems possible.
Nick
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:49pm (UTC -6)
Just building on my comment a little, Discovery has a spore drive which is linked to everything through the mycelllium network and as far as we know a spore drive has never time travelled before. So it’s not inconceivable that something happened with the spore drive during time travel, the effects of which spread out over a wide radius through the mycelium network.
Cody B
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 8:24pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

What???????
I never said anything about you being on meds or being a psycho. You are quoting me as saying things I’ve never said. Whatever man. I tried to be friendly and respectful to you I don’t know what your problem is. Enjoy the arguments
Sen-Sors
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 9:22pm (UTC -6)
"Georgiou is a rebel."

Georgiou is Space Hitler. Nothing less.

The show acts like it's fine because she knows Micheal Burnham. They apparently have a weird connection that has not been explored and makes no sense; the Mirror Micheal the Empress knew is dead, and Disco Micheal rescued her from a situation she might have been able to handle herself and threw her into a foreign timeline where her empire doesn't exist.

"It's not like she's genetically predisposed to act that way,"

No, but neither was Hitler! That's a weak argument when someone works their way up to being a brutal dictator who literally eats other sentient species for lunch.

Georgiou is way, way beyond the sort of character who has done bad but may come around to being an ally for good. Her whole life has been violence, brutality and a quest for power for it's own sake. She has yet to show any of the depth or nuance found in Dukat, Baltar or even Q. She's a cartoon, and it is a waste of a talented actress.

A show with better writers could perhaps pull off a gradual turn in her character, but they would have had to start earlier, in season 2. I really don't think the current crop of STD writers can pull it off, which is why I'm leaning towards a schmaltzy self-sacrifice during a season finale. That's easy and dumb and it's like Star Wars.
dave
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:25pm (UTC -6)
If "the burn" ends up being caused by Discovery's time travel and BURNham saves the day and there is a massive reset button and there is a thriving Federation as if nothing happened......

They will turn off so many Star Trek fans I wonder if this has any life after that. People are still hanging in there but that might cross the line.
Mike
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:56pm (UTC -6)
@Sen-sors

"Georgiou is way, way beyond the sort of character who has done bad but may come around to being an ally for good. Her whole life has been violence, brutality and a quest for power for it's own sake. She has yet to show any of the depth or nuance found in Dukat, Baltar or even Q. She's a cartoon, and it is a waste of a talented actress.

A show with better writers could perhaps pull off a gradual turn in her character, but they would have had to start earlier, in season 2. I really don't think the current crop of STD writers can pull it off, which is why I'm leaning towards a schmaltzy self-sacrifice during a season finale. That's easy and dumb and it's like Star Wars. "

I think you're absolutely right. Other shows have been able to pull off huge character transformations from "evil" to "good", but I don't see Discovery doing it.

My favorite is Garibaldi's arc in Babylon 5, where he goes from approving planetary bombardment to seeking forgiveness and paying a huge price for his actions, but from that very first moment the viewer is deeply engaged with his internal process and is therefore able to empathize with it.

Georgiou has no depth, we have no idea what is going on for her internally (I imagine it's something like "ahahahah, I'm so evil and I enjoy stamping people's brains out") and even if she were to somehow redeem herself I can't see myself giving a shit about it anyway.
Unicorn
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 4:05am (UTC -6)
@Ruomyes
"If the new Trek programmes are trying to encourage us to feel, and feel more, it's because qualities like empathy are sorely needed in today's world, now, if there is ever to be a future world like Trek."

Why would anybody want to live in the hellish world that modern Trek depicts?

Food for thought.
Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 4:12am (UTC -6)
@Cody
That was a quote from tomalak. I forgot to add the @tomalak line.
Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:12am (UTC -6)
Ok so maybe I'm wrong on this but it is bubbling around my head for a while.
To condense it in a question. Did old Star Trek revolve around deontology and does NuTrek revolve around utilitarianism? And is that the reason that NuTrek feels more hollow (The USA is a nation governed by utilitarianism, I would argue)?

Here a vid for deontology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ&list=PL30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=6&ab_channel=HarvardUniversity

Here a vid for utlitarianism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY&list=PL30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=1&ab_channel=HarvardUniversity
Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:16am (UTC -6)
To outline it a bit more.
Star Trek was always about doing the right thing, because they believe it to be right, the consequences are of less importance. (Deontology)

NuTrek on the other hand is always saying stuff like we are family or we love each other and that is why we do things, which is utilitarian.
Mike
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 7:05am (UTC -6)
Good question. IF there could ever be said to be an ethical focus to Trek, it would be Greek and not modern ethics (morality) - and I'm extremely thankful for that..I studied that deontology/utilitarian distinction at law school and it always seemed to me a giant load of enlightenment-era B.S.

But I think if ethics were the central focus of Star Trek, old or new, I would have lost interest in the show long ago. Same with what someone else in another thread said about Starfleet ideals being about "America".
SlackerInc
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 7:16am (UTC -6)
Good episode. I fully cosign Mal’s three star writeup.

Not a fan of the comments about Tilly’s weight. That doesn’t mean I’m telling anyone they don’t have a right to say anything about it, but I also have a right not to like what they say.
Booming
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 8:23am (UTC -6)
@ Mike
I just meant what philosophical outlook guided it.
So you think it is about virtue ethics, not consequentialism (utilitarian) or deontology ?
Mike
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:35am (UTC -6)
I'm not sure. There are of course episodes totally focused on what the right action is, like Worf's back injury and the Tuvix episode, as well as In The Pale Moonlight. But those are fairly rare, and I suppose I always saw a Starfleet officer as someone to be idealized and looked up to, could be expected to act virtuously. And I mean the whole vision of the future that Star Trek presents could be said to be about the ideal way to live, what a good society or workplace would look like, of character traits. I know that virtue ethics deals with these matters, not just right and wrong actions.
Tomalak
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:36am (UTC -6)
@SlackerInc "Not a fan of the comments about Tilly’s weight. That doesn’t mean I’m telling anyone they don’t have a right to say anything about it, but I also have a right not to like what they say."

Of course you do. This would be a boring discussion forum if we couldn't disagree! What do you dislike about them out of interest?
Yanks
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:36am (UTC -6)
A special preview of episode 3 here at the end of 'The Ready Room'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR33vUxPxjk

I'm not too happy with 'The Burn' stuff...
Paul M.
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:26pm (UTC -6)
@Mike,
You meant Londo, not Garibaldi, right?

Such a strange, on occasion awful, often brilliant show, B5. Good times.
Mike
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:20pm (UTC -6)
Paul M - Yes, of course - I don't know how I got that wrong! Although Garibaldi's arc is great too.

And yes, the show has its lesser (some would say 'awful') moments and yet if you asked me whether I would remove them, I'd say no. Somehow I see the show's imperfections as completely necessary and part of its magic.
Tomalak
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:21pm (UTC -6)
Paul, thanks for clarifying that. I was worried for my memory there as I couldn't recall Garibaldi doing anything like that!
Lodged Torpedo
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:51pm (UTC -6)
Come back to check out the always...lively discussions after a couple of days, and the weight topic is still ongoing?!

Y’all are of course entitled to your opinion, but what part of your peers telling you that they think it’s rude and inappropriate to comment on someone’s fluctuating weight (regardless if that person is an actress and “thus asking for it”) do you not understand? If you can’t respect Mary Wiseman (whose weight may or may not be related to any number of things that are none of your business), who I happen to think looks spectacularly gorgeous, then respect your peers and drop it already. Does this really need to be the fat hill fans die on?

Maybe she hasn’t been running as many Disco laps as usual. Maybe she’s stressed. Maybe it’s a gland problem. Maybe she’s just as athletic and strong but her body has changed and maybe she has not control over it, Starfleet member or not. This is Biology 101, and Manners 101.

I know class cannot be taught, but as an adult this a lesson you should have passed by default by now. We know you’re allowed to talk about it. That doesn’t mean you have to.
Chris
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 7:40pm (UTC -6)
This show’s obsession with Michael Burnham knows no end.

I was enjoying the episode. Tonally, it was a complete mess as usual. You have the very poignant, heart-felt dialogue rubbing up against sarcastic one-liners and random swearing. You have the conversations about peaceful values and non-violent ideals juxtaposed with Leland’s brains splattered over the floor and people being phasered through the chest. Then you have Saru’s measured and considerate approach undermined by Georgiou’s one-dimensional eye-rollingly comic book dialogue. But it was nice to see the crew pulling together, even when the earnest speeches about how good everyone is still don’t feel earned considering barely anyone on the bridge has a character.

But I was enjoying it a hell of a lot more than last week...until the final minute where Burnham turns up to save the day YET AGAIN. This show specialises in making her the centre of absolutely everything. Ship in trouble? Burnham has the solution. Character having a crisis of faith? A talk with Burnham settles it. Need to remind Starfleet of its values? Burnham can do that. Never mind that she is tied in with Spock, that her mother is the Red Angel, that she becomes the Red Angel and that she leads the Discovery to the future. Now she rescues them from the ice, making all their efforts pointless. And of course she’s been in the future for a year, so the crew will be entirely dependent on her vastly superior knowledge of this future.

I’m guessing she will solve the dillithium issue or outright reverse The Burn by the end of this season. Even when TNG leaned into more Data and Picard shows by the end of its run, or Enterprise’s constant pattern of having Archer put in prison, it never felt like the rest of the cast was completely side-lined the way they are on Discovery. This show is at pains to tell us that these characters are uber nerds and super smart. Yet it’s always Burnham who motivates them, helps them or overshadows them entirely. Just call it Star Trek: Burnham.
Tomalak
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 8:17pm (UTC -6)
@LT I said "I sense that you think it's off bounds even to talk about this [Tilly's weight gain] on a message board but you can't quite explain why?". In response we get absolutely no explanation of why it's wrong to talk about a Star Trek character's weight gain here, but instead got told that I and others lack class, understanding, respect and manners - and then, without any sense of irony, that we are the ones being rude! And that's after accusations of psychopathy and being off our meds from someone else who also happens to want to make Tilly's weight gain taboo here.

I think these kinds of completely unprovoked and unreciprocated personal insults speak for themselves. I think it says it all that while those of us who are relaxed about discussing this topic have engaged with what weight problems and weight gain would mean in the 23rd century in a calm, rational way, you and Boomer have nonetheless leapt to every insult in the book. I won't be reciprocating.
John
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 8:32pm (UTC -6)
It would only be wrong to talk about a character's weight gain if having a large body is seen as wrong. Could you imagine the same reaction about a hairstyle change?

-"Burnham's hair has grown so much since last season"
-"I don't appreciate you talking about that, please stop it"

Still, I'm aware of the historical association between large women and ugliness, and I don't expect ignoring people's sensitivities will erode those ideas. If someone asked me to politely not mention it, I'd oblige them.
Quincy
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 1:11am (UTC -6)
This episode was better than last week. I was so disappointed at the premiere. I was looking forward to Discovery after the crappy ending of The 100. They should've started the season with this episode. Saru is the best character. I would expect this cast to start gelling together at this point. So far no such luck.

I don't like the new engineer. Her only purpose seems to be to out ahole Stamets. I really hate the character of Tilly, as well. Hopefully, she gets Tasha Yar'd by an evil oil slick at some point. I can't stand her. Mirror Phillipa is getting old. Most mirror characters get old. They should've toned her down like Mirror Spock.

I still have some hope for the season. They need to address this Burn thing. How far does it reach? The whole galaxy? The universe? How did it happen? Where are the other types of warp drives? The Romulan's I'm still not clear about. They use a quantum singularity, but in nemesis weren't they mining dilithium? Was that just for trade? I pray that it doesn't turn out that Burnham somehow caused the Burn when she set the suit to self-destruct or by their trip through the time stream.

I'm hoping for the return of some of the lesser used aliens. Maybe a pissed off Douwd detonated all the dilithium. Perhaps they'll bring back the Darmok for an Arrival style episode and actually get a linguist consultant who can come up with a plausible way such a language could work. Bring back Species 8472 and make them actually fearsome again after Voyager neutered them. If some of them got stranded by the Burn, they ought to be pretty pissed off.

So many things they could do; give us some stand alone episodes. Also, find another power source besides antimatter. Exotic particles like magnetic monopoles. They annihilate like antimatter. Through in some high temperature superconductors and you should have warp drive. And some theoretical incarnations even accelerate proton decay, so you don't need to use up your supply for normal ship power. You just annihilate protons for the everyday stuff and monopoles for warp.

Also that dark matter in season 2 seems like a helluva compact power source. Find some more of that and pass it around.

But with a 13 episode season, it's hard to see where they could fit much of anything in. I miss the 20 plus episode seasons the programs of yesteryear got.

2.5 stars.
Booming
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 1:59am (UTC -6)
@tomalak
I said that you must be off your meds because you were, and again are, imagining things. I never said that you cannot write about anybody being fat. Either stop lying or start taking you neuroleptics again. Write about ballooning women (your words) as much as you want.
Sen-Sors
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 5:21am (UTC -6)
Quincy you're doing technobabble in real life and that's pretty cool. I can only hope Disco puts as much thought into it.
Saru's ganglia
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:05am (UTC -6)
I am not sure what Trek fans are expecting but this episode ticked every box for me. The first 30 minutes are some of the best Trek I've ever seen. The location and visuals are dazzling, DISCO's usual strengths as Jammer and some have already said in the past. The cold opening ranks up there with the best I've seen in sy-fy TV, the tumbling and falling looks so real. Did Emily Coutts flip herself over the console or was that a stunt?

Seeing the crew work together was amazing and the actors do an outstanding job, especially Doug Jones, Tig Notaro, Mary Wiseman, and Emily Coutts. I can watch Saru all week. I want Jett Reno's dry medley of honesty and sense of humor in every episode and I really want Detmer to be ok. Minus points for Pollard for letting Detmer go when it was obvious that she was suffering from PTSD but I put myself in Pollard's position and I can also understand why she's overlook that during the messy aftermath of the crash landing. I am also not a fan of Pollard as a character so I am likely to interpret the scene with bias.

The second half is not as great as the first. I have never been fond of Trek when it does western style 'crash-an-establishment' scene but it's still watchable because if there is a scene like that with the inevitable conflict or fight, the villain must make it worthwhile and the actor who played the bad guy makes it work. Georgiou shows up to take care of him, I am always in awe of Yeoh's skills in these scenes and I read that she coaches other stunts on stage on top of doing her own stunts in Georgiou's scenes.

This is my first personal four star episode of Discovery on Jammer's scale.
CaptainMercer
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:36am (UTC -6)
So when the crashed the saucer, that was it.
When Voyager crashed in Timeless, that was it
When the Enterprise crashed in Beyond that was it.
But when Discovery crashes it just needs a few minor repairs and one injured guy in a Jefferies tube and we are good as new

I might not like this show, but I think it's odd to poke on Mary Wiseman's weight gain, just like I think it was wrong to poke at Adrainne Paliki's weight loss near the end of Orville season 2
Startrekwatcher
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 9:00am (UTC -6)
What this fan wants is to be entertained. DIS doesn’t have to be deep or say something profound. These writers don’t have the life experience or mental capacity for that. I’d also like a better cast of actors and better written characters.

I’d like the show to fire Sonequa. She’s an albatross. Horrible actress with awful delivery.

And a little imagination would be nice. How uninspiring is it to recycle western settings. Smuggling. Ship crash. There’s no high concept. There’s no imaginative thinking outside of the box. It’ is just rote
Yanks
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:10am (UTC -6)
@CaptainMercer

"So when the crashed the saucer, that was it.
When Voyager crashed in Timeless, that was it
When the Enterprise crashed in Beyond that was it.
But when Discovery crashes it just needs a few minor repairs and one injured guy in a Jefferies tube and we are good as new"

None of them fired on Parasitic Ice to cushion the blow.

@Startrekwatcher

"I’d like the show to fire Sonequa. She’s an albatross. Horrible actress with awful delivery."

Well, that's not going to happen. Her acting seems to be hit and miss. Sometimes I'm praising her and sometimes I just cringe.
Yanks
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:16am (UTC -6)
@Saru's ganglia

"I am not sure what Trek fans are expecting but this episode ticked every box for me. The first 30 minutes are some of the best Trek I've ever seen. The location and visuals are dazzling, DISCO's usual strengths as Jammer and some have already said in the past. The cold opening ranks up there with the best I've seen in sy-fy TV, the tumbling and falling looks so real. Did Emily Coutts flip herself over the console or was that a stunt?

Seeing the crew work together was amazing and the actors do an outstanding job, especially Doug Jones, Tig Notaro, Mary Wiseman, and Emily Coutts. I can watch Saru all week."

Visually Discovery is certainly amazing. No question.

Agree with all your choices of good actors, but I'd like to give a shout out to Oyin Oladejo as Lt. Joann Owosekun. I loved her in the episode where she got to go down to the planet with Pike and I like her in every scene she's in.
Z
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 1:26pm (UTC -6)
Far better than Part. 1 mainly because it did not focus on Burnham and we got to see more of the crew dynamics. I appreciate the time created to show some deck crew dialog, to build some real characters but unfortunately, that ship has sailed, it's lackluster and the writers hope to find some chemistry on the minimal effort previous seasons put in but it's not there.

Stamets, Hugh, and Jett Reno's scenes felt overproduced and fake. Hardly quality character building and certainly poor writing, sending an injured Stamets into a jefferies tube to fix the last critical part.

Tilly again is facepalm levels of incompetent, she is beyond anything previous dunces in Star Trek. She is dangerous and completely obnoxious, if I worked with her I would write her up or fire her. She cannot be compared to other comedic relief (awkward characters) like Lt. Barclay. He had realistic anxieties, social awkwardness, but at the same time was brilliant and capable.

I think they handled Saru asserting himself as the Captain against Georgiou well. But I think he needs to be even more stern going forward, demote Burnham and Georgiou to ensign. Allow the deck crew/coms/nav to become developed characters. Delete Tilly (no one will mind).

Saru proves to be the strongest character of this show and I had hoped this episode would prove he is grown into Captain. I think it did. However, the writers shot themselves in the foot by including Georgiou. She is a horrible character who like Burnham undermines every aspect of a Trek show.

I had also hoped we would not reunite with Burnham so quickly, another poor choice. Let discovery and it's crew explore on their own for several episodes. This will again become the Burnham/Georgiou show I fear.

Still feeling optimistic. Episode 3 will set some narrative tone for what is to come this season in terms of character balancing. I hope they nail it.
Quincy
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 1:40pm (UTC -6)
@Sen-Sors

lol. Blame Dirac. Same dude that came up with antimatter.

@Saru's ganglia

The problem is that western bar scene was so horribly executed it killed all the momentum of the episode. It's purpose was apparently for Saru to tout Starfleet principles, talk Georgiou down, and inspire Os'ir with a newfound belief in Starfleet.

It just didn't work. Why would Georgiou allow those dudes to take her hostage? The numbers were far better outside than they were inside the bar. Why film the scene where so many people have the drop on you and you magically don't get shot as you're swinging and kicking? It would've made more sense that Georgiou killed the two dudes outside. Then picked off the remaining dudes one by one in some other manner. Perhaps by sniping from cover or hell, just incapacitating EVERYONE in the bar with some type of stun device.

Georgiou was already regarding the people on the planet with suspicion when arguing with Saru on the ship. She would've come prepared. Just give me a scene I can suspend disbelief with. In fact, nothing she does is making sense. I can see her having an obsession with Michael, if she had one with her counterpart. I cannot see her allowing herself to be controlled by Saru or anyone else. She has no reason to. They really should just kill off the character at this point. Such a waste of a good actress.

Nothing in that scene made sense. They have programmable matter and they're struggling? Programmable matter would have to be some mixture of nanotech and wellstone from Wil McCarthy's novels. I'm sorry, but that's as broken as replicators. If you have any of that, you're not going to be struggling. All you need is energy. They cracked fusion long ago. There are so many other power sources. Even if dilithium is absolutely necessary for warp drive, literally nobody should be struggling.

Os'ir instantly turning over a new leaf? Really?!? Since everything he said was going to happen happened, he should've killed that dude immediately for killing Kal and turned to them and said, "Personally, I think you and your Starfleet ideals are full of $#!%. But if you think you can make a difference go ahead and try. I won't be holding my breath. Now about that dilithium..." That would've made sense. Instead we get a Janeway level Starfleet ideals defy the laws of physics. It works because it works, even when we can see on screen that it didn't work.

With a serious rewrite this could've been an excellent episode. In order for this production to gel, as all the others have had to do, Discovery needs someone who will reign in its excesses.
Anthimos
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 2:05pm (UTC -6)
I have been a very ardent defender of Discovery from the beginning. In general I feel most commenters have been harsh and nitpicky on ALL Trek after DS9. It has become almost a given in Trek fandom that commenters are ready to shit all over the last episode. That being said I am not immune to critiquing it myself, I just don't get bogged down in episode after episode of minutiae concentrated bashing. But I am gonna go on the record here...if Detmer (who I find oddly attractive in a cyborgy way) turns out to have dragged Control both into the future and into this season of discovery I will be DEEPLY disappointed with the writers rehashing what I personally felt was the weakest part of last years storyline. I let it go last season because on the whole I was happy with the rest of season, but the "AI VS. biological" storyline in sci-fi has gotten really hard to keep fresh IMO. To continue with it after they neatly wrapped it up last season would be the height of stupidity and show the shallow depths of a stagnant writers room.
Yanks
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 8:06pm (UTC -6)
Quincy

"It just didn't work. Why would Georgiou allow those dudes to take her hostage?"

What better way to find out where Saru and Tilly went? ... come on man... :-)
Mertov
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 10:03pm (UTC -6)
This is one of Discovery's better outings over its full run so far, there are some great moments and finally the full crew gets its due attention, mainly thanks to working together following the crash. Great comments by Mal, Karl, Yanks, Tim C and Eric jensen, not much to add. I agree with Saru's ganglia and others on the opening sequence. I loved the shot of Stamets on the sickbay bed with his eyes closed in silence and when Hugh injects him with the shot, with the camera close to his face, he hears "Paul" by Hugh and opens his eyes to a frantic sickbay.

"But when Discovery crashes it just needs a few minor repairs and one injured guy in a Jefferies tube and we are good as new"
----- There is at least one dead from the crash and several injured in critical condition lying down motionless in sickbay.

"Delete Tilly (no one will mind)."
---- No, I am sure quite a lot will. Best not to speak on behalf of everyone. I am not enamored with the character myself, she is great at times and off at others, but Wiseman does great with what she is given and I certainly don't want her gone. Her character means a lot to many people to see someone like her in that position striving to improve and build confidence. Her dialog scenes with Saru (especially two in the ship) were some of the stronger parts of this episode.

3,5 stars from me. I did not find Stamets venturing down the Jefferies tube in his condition plausible at all. On the other hand, give me more Jett Reno please, she is a cracker.
Ralph
Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 10:49pm (UTC -6)
Can programmable matter make dilithium?

Tilly isn't dumb, she just stumbles in her speech. Kind of like people thinking Biden is senile when he just makes gaffes that he admits to.
Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 12:44am (UTC -6)
"They should've started the season with this episode... I don't like the new engineer. Her only purpose seems to be to out ahole Stamets."

I strongly agree on both points. The new engineer is difficult to watch. In a sense she is realistic in that difficult, unpleasant people like her really do exist. But what's unrealistic is that people don't bad mouth her constantly for her rudeness and force her to spend half her day fending off complaints to HR. Like Giorgio, you have to suspend credulity to believe she can just spend her day behaving like that without consequences.

It's yet another example of how DS9 did this stuff well in that early Bashir and Odo were both difficult employees, and that added to the realism. But crucially, both faced consequences for that, with Sisko slapping Bashir down at times and Odo having someone effectively moved in to do some of the key parts of his job. That is what happens to people like that in a realistic show. Instead in Discovery we have characters behaving like complete cranks without any apparent consequences.

"But with a 13 episode season, it's hard to see where they could fit much of anything in. I miss the 20 plus episode seasons the programs of yesteryear got."

Yes, as others have said it seems to encourage them to blow their special effects budget on tedious action and CGI scenes rather than use their heads to write good material. And if it's like Season 2 they will write a single story and stretch it over almost the whole season.

Re Giorgio, it's interesting how much she divides opinion. I think she's obviously a bad actress but others - perhaps those who have seen her in other shows - clearly think she's a real acting talent. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case the writers really gave her a lemon to work with. I certainly struggle to believe someone with her poor spoken English would rise so high in Starfleet - universal translator?

"I think it's odd to poke on Mary Wiseman's weight gain, just like I think it was wrong to poke at Adrainne Paliki's weight loss near the end of Orville season 2"

I hadn't even noticed the latter! I think the Tilly weight gain comment above was just a by the by until a couple of people started turning it into the Big Debate Of Our Times whether it's quite kosher even to mention a character's weight gain here. I agree it's not a big thing and said so, but I think it's a misreading of the thread to see it as anyone harping on obsessively about Tilly's weight gain. It's more like I mentioned it briefly, a couple of others agreed, then we got besieged by angry fanatics who dragged it out.

Booming, keep it up. You're doing yourself a lot of favours.
Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 1:37am (UTC -6)
"I certainly struggle to believe someone with her poor spoken English would rise so high in Starfleet - universal translator?"

Sorry, this comment makes little sense when talking about the Mirror Giorgio, who isn't a Starfleet officer at all! It does apply to the original Giorgio however.
Cody B
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 2:00am (UTC -6)
@Tomalek

Agreed on Michelle yeoh. It seems like the number one defense of georgio is “but Michelle yeoh is a good actress”. Not in discovery she’s not. Maybe it’s the English idk. I like crouching tiger. She’s great. But this isn’t that. Look how great of a villain The Burning Ray gun guy is in this episode. 100% believable. Then there’s georgio who has had 3 years. Nothing about her is scary or believable it’s all just cringe.
Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 2:18am (UTC -6)
Yes, Burnham is an incredibly boring and poorly acted superhero and Giorgio is a camp, poorly acted supervillain. It's like watching Batman not Star Trek.
SlackerInc
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 2:51am (UTC -6)
Are we getting “Part 2” next, or later in the season? I was confused when this episode was not that.

I would definitely mind losing Tilly. She, Saru, and Reno are the best characters on the show IMO.

I thought Giorgio was a great character in the pilot. I would have enjoyed watching that version of the show. But I definitely am not a fan of the scenery-chewing Mirror Universe Empress.

@Tomalak: “What do you dislike about them out of interest?”

it just seems mean-spirited to body shame someone whose character was never presented as eye candy. I am sure the actor who plays Tilly is not delighted about gaining weight, so why risk making reading the forum a painful experience for her? She probably doesn’t read it, but she might.
Booming
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 3:08am (UTC -6)
@Tomalak
"Booming, keep it up. You're doing yourself a lot of favours."
Well, when you ask me this nicely. Ok, here we go.
You dislike Tilly (fatty), Georgiou (bad English) and Burnham (hmmm). How do you feel about Tig Notaro's character? Is it relevant to you that she is a lesbian? In general, are there women on the show that you do not dislike?

If you feel uncomfortable with these question feel free not to answer them. :)
Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 3:54am (UTC -6)
I like Tilly and Detmer.

SlackerInc, I don't know what you mean by body-shaming, really, or how that's different from simply noting someone is overweight or has gained weight, which is all I am conscious of doing? Even in the very unlikely event that the actress read this I wouldn't feel I'd said anything insulting. I suppose she might have been unaware of how obvious her rapid weight gain is to others, in which case I'd say bringing it home to her in a matter of fact, non-insulting way is probably helpful. It also helps her friends and family avoid an awkward conversation. More likely of course she won't read a word of this.

I don't think anyone should feel shame for their size unless it really is driven by greed and laziness, which is rare. Far more common is that people have busy lives that preclude regular exercise and they receive lots of contradictory dietary advice and struggle to differentiate the good from the bad. But I *do* think that being fat or obese makes someone objectively less attractive, and does risk their health - if that's what people mean by body shaming, and they still think it's a bad thing, then I think they're denying both common sense and science (not just nutrition but evolutionary psychology and medicine too) in favour of ideological fantasies.
Jason R.
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 4:11am (UTC -6)
In order to "shame" someone, wouldn't they have to have some opportunity to be "ashamed"? Seems like it would require some personal connection and not vicariously on a forum the person will never read. Seems like a victimless crime if it is a crime.
Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 4:44am (UTC -6)
Yes, my understanding is body shaming doesn't usually literally refer to making people ashamed of their body. It's more like an all purpose term for anyone who thinks a person can become healthier or more attractive by losing weight/can become less healthy and less attractive by gaining weight. It's an ideological belief that flies in the face of reality.
SlackerInc
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 7:41am (UTC -6)
If you guys don't think celebrities feel emotional pain when random strangers comment on things like weight gain, loss of attractiveness due to aging, etc., I would say you are SERIOUSLY out of touch. It betrays, as others have said, a basic lack of manners and a deficit of fundamental decency.
Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:11am (UTC -6)
It's the reality of being fat that causes the problems, not randoms on the internet pointing it out in a matter of act way. As you said yourself, it's vanishingly unlikely the actress is even reading this stuff so I can't even see the point in worrying about it.
Discovery Fan
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:35am (UTC -6)
Why do so many people watch Discovery who clearly don't like it? It's just a TV show...it's not real life, it won't ever be real life. Characters and situations are contrived at the writer's will, they behave inconsistently on who writes dialog.

Do you miss TNG? Watch that instead.

Hate Star Trek? Watch NCIS...read a book...get a life. Stop commenting on actors' body shapes or whatever else makes you whiny.
Jason R.
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:46am (UTC -6)
"If you guys don't think celebrities feel emotional pain when random strangers comment on things like weight gain, loss of attractiveness due to aging, etc., I would say you are SERIOUSLY out of touch. It betrays, as others have said, a basic lack of manners and a deficit of fundamental decency."

You're presupposing that the actress reads this forum which is a pretty big if. I dunno, this seems like a tree falling in the woods situation.

I'm not really down with this whole notion of someone getting vicariously offended on someone else's behalf for something the "offendee" will never even know about.

But whatever - I can't say I'm upset about this either way.
Lodged Warpedo
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 11:49am (UTC -6)
That's the thing, Tom, you can't see beyond yourself. For a ST fan, that's disconcerting. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't read this forum. You don't know yet you don't care. Maybe her friends and family peruse them. Her fans certainly do. 2 days later and you're STILL defending yourself. And your Michelle Yeoh speaks bad English and therefore couldn't have risen in the Starfleet ranks comment is also prejudiced. Not everyone speaks with the same fluidity or accent as you.

Infinite diversity and infinite possibilities, remember? 🖖

Jammer, the lack of some moderation of the toxicity in this forum does directly impact if viewers return. People shouldn't be silenced but maybe they can be reminded to leave their discriminatory comments out of the discussions? Fat shaming and now language shaming feels entirely inappropriate. Thank you for considering.
Chrome
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 12:30pm (UTC -6)
Folks, this isn't your high school yearbook; we're talking about highly-paid professionals who chose a career that puts themselves into the public eye. You can bet that actors/actresses are already hyper-aware of their appearance. While I agree that name-calling is inappropriate, saying something like 'Mary Wiseman has put on a quite few pounds in a couple years, I hope she's okay" isn't particularly mean. I remember my friends and I being concerned about Jonathan Frakes who some may remember was super slim in his early TNG days.

I say this as someone who has been overweight, lost the weight, regained it, and lost it again. My doctor actually confronted me about my weight the second time and I'm grateful that she did. Being overweight is typically a temporary condition that can be controlled with a healthy lifestyle.
Booming
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 12:31pm (UTC -6)
Wisemann doesn't have to hear it herself for it to be fatshaming. She is not the only person who is overweight. Millions of women have anorexia and hundreds of thousands of men. These kind of comments create more. So yeah, fatshaming does not have to be said in front of somebody, in this case Wisemann, to cause damage. And disclaimer because it has be said now. So that none cries persecution:" This being hurtful doesn't mean that you cannot say or write it." It just means that you are a bad person or are at least pissing away karma points.

And even if this doesn't lead to potentially deadly eating disorders. Who wants to hurt people for no reason?!
Z
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 1:08pm (UTC -6)
I have nothing against Wisemann. I think the character of Tilly is a bit played out, she just isn't Star Fleet material. The balance of what made her likable is gone to me, because they overplayed it in season 2. She can no longer be an overwhelmed cadet on a science ship. Kudos to the writers for how Saru handled her, it's the same way I handle my 4-year-old niece and Tilly is at that level, unfortunately.

I remember someone on this board last season summed Tilly up with a simple question, how would Picard handle Tilly on his deck? She is a Wesley esk child and just like Wesley, they need to go eventually.
Peter G.
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 1:35pm (UTC -6)
@ Booming,

"This being hurtful doesn't mean that you cannot say or write it." It just means that you are a bad person or are at least pissing away karma points."

We really don't want to go down the road where merely saying the truth makes you a bad person. To the extent that we're discussing things like decorum and decency, there is a *way* to tell the truth that can be aggressive, vindictive, mocking, and a way that is more neutral and factual, and of course a way that has a kind spirit. Lumping all of these together under the monicker "shaming" does a disservice both to the poster here as well as to language. And although I know it's the fashion among certain circles to equate something that *could* hurt someone's feelings with "you are doing harm!", these are in fact not equivalent. I would certainly sympathize with a warning to be careful how you talk to people online or IRL, to not hurt their feelings unnecessarily. But "if you report what you see with your own eyes you are a bad person" is a dead-end path for humanity.
Yanks
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 1:36pm (UTC -6)
Tilly doesn't lack in intelligence, just confidence.
Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 3:15pm (UTC -6)
Great post, Peter G. It's sad that it even needs saying.
Booming
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 4:37pm (UTC -6)
@Peter
Well, first of all truth is often a matter of perspective, more importantly it is a matter of framing. Saying something that is true can be bad or good. For example:"Some people say that Jews control the media." or "Transpeople are far more often participants when rape happens than the average citizen." Both is true. Both truth are used in a very sinister way. For the first example, sure some people say everything. For the second one should probably add that they are the ones being raped. Point being that it depends.
Now let's have a look at Tomalak's comments:
- Tilly is almost unrecognisable now
- I find Tilly's weight gain very striking so I observed it, yeah.
Then he posted before/after pictures of her to prove her weight gain
- although it is striking how fast Tilly has ballooned.
- amusingly they reference how much fitter the character is getting even as she balloons in weight.

Is this just telling the truth or is this barely concealed douchebaggery.

After that he started to attack people, me included, then wrote to me "The idea that character weight gain is off limits is your weird hang up" and suggested that I leave this forum if I have a problem with what he writes. The only thing I had done at that point was making fun of him for starting with this stupid topic. I never said anything about him needing my permission or whatever.

"Great post, Peter G. It's sad that it even needs saying."
Almost got whiplash from rolling my eyes.
Caoimhin
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 5:19pm (UTC -6)
I bet that guy with the comically large 20th century shovel is really pleased he gave up his life to accompany Burnham into the far future. Has he ever even met her I wonder? What's his position on the ship anyhow, lavatory cleaner? That whole scene was made no sense.
Saru was very watchable in this, however the parasitic ice effects looked very dated, wouldn't have been out of place in TNG.
Sen-Sors
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 5:27pm (UTC -6)
"To the extent that we're discussing things like decorum and decency, there is a *way* to tell the truth that can be aggressive, vindictive, mocking, and a way that is more neutral and factual, and of course a way that has a kind spirit."

Okay, sure. So calling someone "unrecognizable" and "ballooning"; which camp does that fit in?

I don't think pointing out an actor's weight gain on a TV show makes someone a bad person, and it's worth noting that Tomalek has commented on many other aspects of the show besides that topic. However, the defense of "genuinely curious of what you dislike about me saying this, I'm just pointing out the truth" comes off as a little disingenuous. A bit babe-in-the-woods, if you will.

Surely we are all aware of the context of people's weight, self-esteem and the judgement society will often place upon you in relation to it. You can see it in this very thread with the assertion that Wiseman is failing as an actor due to her weight gain. Is it really a surprise that some people would find such a discussion distasteful?
Jason R.
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 5:33pm (UTC -6)
"Millions of women have anorexia and hundreds of thousands of men. These kind of comments create more"

You're a psychiatrist now?
Frankgeo
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 6:00pm (UTC -6)
Jammer, can you please either get a moderator for these comments or discontinue this comment section. The same people are commenting time and time again and mostly they’re arguing each other. The comments this time are out of hand. They seem to mostly about Tilly’s weight. I noticed it also but who cares. I’m done with these comments. I like Discovery and if you don’t like it don’t watch it!
Booming
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 6:15pm (UTC -6)
@Jason
"You're a psychiatrist now?"
You think my statement is incorrect?
Dave in MN
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:20pm (UTC -6)
I just discovered the antispam answer doesn't accept "Jellico".

IAnyways, 'll keep it brief-ish (for once)

THINGS I LIKED:

Seeing the crew actually work together as a crew

Saru - the actor who plays him is very talented

Tilly amuses me - maybe not for the right reasons but again the actress has a certain likability to her

The FX - I could actually see what was happening (mostly)

The score - finally a Trek score focused on generating mood vs. the usual overdone emotive bombast

The direction/ editing - I can tell there were some reshoot scenes intermixed but it was much more seamless than most Nu-Trek

WHAT I DIDN'T LIKE:

Georgiou - Michelle Yeoh is SO talented so why do they write her to be so carttonishly evil? I'm glad the character wants to get shit done, but c'mon! I can think of 80's cartoon villians written with more nuance. Also, 3 pain-phaser shots and she's smiling? Whatever. (Hopefully she's not going to resurrect Section 31 when the crew inevitably reassembles Starfleet)

The Doctor's Pep Talk - What? He just had to unhook one wire and hook up another. This is like Agnes on STP freaking out about pushing the Engage Button.

Gratutious gore - You know what I'm talking about. Yuck.

The death sentence - out you go into the cold, but here's some survival gear and rations. Might as well have had him twirl his mustache and say " I'll be back!"

Does Implant Lady have a Control infection? - God, I hope not

Gene scooping up body parts - he leaves his family forever to go to the future and this is his job? The officers mock him? Also, "Gene"? The writers have to know a Trekkie well immediately think Roddenberry. I didn't like that.

Parasitic Ice - that's not how ice works, but ok. No flamethrowers in the future? Also, didn't I see this on Doctor Who once?

The scientifically impossible planet

Michael saving the day - because of course she would, sigh.

I have a feeling the first 2 episodes of this season were originally a single episode that they padded out with reshoots. Hence much of the artificial drama.

This wasn't good, but it definitely could've been much worse. No Michael for most of an episode!

⭐⭐
Cody B
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:27pm (UTC -6)
If Tilly were chain smoking cigarettes the whole series and they were real it would be fine to not just mention it’s not healthy but it would be fine to say she’s stupid etc. Mention the obvious that a character has gained a lot of weight in two years and that’s just a no go zone.
Jason R.
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:30pm (UTC -6)
"You think my statement is incorrect"

That people making mildly negative comments about an actress's weight gain literally causes people to become anorexic? Anything's possible I suppose but I really doubt it.
Jason R.
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:36pm (UTC -6)
"I just discovered the antispam answer doesn't accept "Jellico".

Haha you win the forum sir.
Dave in MN
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:46pm (UTC -6)
I'm reading through the comments and I'm getting flashbacks to the whole discussion about Jonathan Frakes's weight a few months ago.

The actress who plays Tilly had a baby right before filming resumed. As I said before, the actors are allowed to have private lives and they may have medical issues we are not privy to.

Besides, pretty much everyone understands that seasons of a show take quite awhile to produce. Think about when child actors hit puberty:, no one bitches about how Jake or Wesley grew 2 inches between consecutive episodes.

If Tilly's appearance bothers a viewer, I think they should ask themselves why they're so hung up on it.
Mal
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 10:13pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN, that's hilarious! Now I want a bumper sticker that says "Jellico is *my* Captain!"

Thanks to all those who appreciated my review. I can't wait to see what @Jammer pens for this episode.

I see a ton of discussion back and forth about Tilly's weight gain. We've had some obviously overweight admirals in the past - Admiral Ross on DS9 wasn't exactly slim and trim. Scotty in his later years grew to be the size of a Dyson's sphere :)

It is unusual for an Ensign to be visibly out of shape - especially given Tilly's character arc, with the Command Training Program and her rigorous running regime.

But I think we need to remember that these are people with technology that is 200 years more advanced than ours. With that technology, how you look is almost like choosing what to wear.

Remember on DS9 when Odo and Sikso and O'Brien went with Dukat on a Klingon ship - and they looked like Klingons? When they came back from that mission - to out Gowron as a changeling (turned out the changeling was Martok) - it was time for Bashir to make Sisko and O'Brien look "normal" again.

And since Odo was also human now, Bashir offered to give him a more "normal" face:

BASHIR: You know, Constable, I could give you any face you like. Bajoran, human, Trill.

ODO: My old face will do very nicely, thank you.

SISKO: You heard the man.

BASHIR: Whatever you say.

My sense is that once Instagram filters are 200 years older, and diet pills are 200 years old, and plastic surgery is 200 years older, and all the other technologies we use to change our appearance are 200 years older, and many, many more such technologies have been invented along the way, people will probably have moved on from our current hang ups.

Of course they will have different hang ups on appearance in the future. Bones absolutely loved teasing Spock about his ears. Kira was not from a Federation Planet, and was famously particular about how her men looked.

Check out Vedic Bareil's abs:

https://youtu.be/yiXu3PGscDs

Come to think of it, in the future, even skin color will be a choice - similar to how some people like to dye their hair these days (Blonds have more fun versus Brunettes are the Best).

I can imagine someone dating an Andorian might want to try out a bluish tint for a few months. Or maybe some S&M aficionado enjoys looking green like an Orion slave girl.

Think how much fun Halloween would be in the 23rd century!

After all, when appearance is a choice, and there is no money, the sky is pretty much the limit. So how you look actually says a lot about how you want people to see you. Especially given that everyone on Star Trek wears a uniform. Remember how big a deal it was for Ro to wear that Bajoran earring?

But if they are worried at all about appearance in a future Starfleet, they will probably be more concerned about people like Ash Taylor and Mr. Darvin. Just because someone looks human, doesn't mean they aren't, say, a Klingon.

As long as Tilly's performance is improving pursuant to her Command Training Program goals, let her look fat. Probably not great for her knees, given all that extra running she's doing. But I'm sure her knees can easily be replaced when the time comes. It's the future people!
Cody B
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 10:17pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

You said on October 24th “Americans are very fat.“

And then just a couple days later:
“Millions of women have anorexia and hundreds of thousands of men. These kind of comments create more. And even if this doesn't lead to potentially deadly eating disorders. Who wants to hurt people for no reason?!“

Only one person in this entire thread has called people fat. And yes that’s ‘people’ as in more than one. Any Americans that read Boomings post, please don’t feel body shamed, and most importantly don’t turn to anorexia! It was a cruel hurtful thing for Booming to have said but you can rise above the insults. You’ll probably try to link to some studies showing a percentage of Americans are overweight, but none of them would ever use that cruel word and insult others. Fat?!? Smh
Samuel
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:36am (UTC -6)
So the Enterprise crash lands in pretty much exactly the same way in Generations and is unsalvageable, but Discovery — a ship 100 years older — crash lands and is ready to take off again a few hours later?
Dave in MN
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:40am (UTC -6)
@ Mal

I would buy that bumper sticker in a heartbeat.
Booming
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 3:12am (UTC -6)
@Jason
"Anything's possible I suppose but I really doubt it."
Why do you doubt it? Negative comments enforce cultural norms. In this case, women are primarily judged by how they look. If they are overweight then that decreases their worth as a human being which then makes it justifiable for many people to humiliate them, while women who are very thin are praised. This leads to certain unhealthy ideals and then to eating disorders.
And to add to that, being slightly overweight actually prolongs life expectancy.

@Cody
Are you really ready to transition from white supremacy posts to this?
Dave in MN
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 3:20am (UTC -6)
Can each of us agree to let this subject go?

I've said what I had to say about it. Haven't you?
Jason R.
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 4:11am (UTC -6)
"Why do you doubt it?"

For the same reason I doubt that violent video games and movies cause murders, or pornography causes sexual violence, or the decline in religion causes crime - because it's simplistic, because it sounds more like ideology than than science, because it is borderline impossible to prove, because I like giving you a hard time? :)
Booming
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:36am (UTC -6)
I believe one of those explanations. :D
Chrome
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 8:31am (UTC -6)
Dave wrote:

"The actress who plays Tilly had a baby right before filming resumed."

I google'd before I commented and couldn't find this explanation. Question asked, question answered. Not sure what the problem with this discussion is.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 8:44am (UTC -6)
@Lodged Warpedo
"Jammer, the lack of some moderation of the toxicity in this forum does directly impact if viewers return. People shouldn't be silenced but maybe they can be reminded to leave their discriminatory comments out of the discussions?"

I have no dog in this specific fight, but I can tell you one thing:

For over a year, Jammer has stopped moderating ANYTHING here. From trolling to racist comments to spam. Even when things are directly reported to him, he does absolutely nothing.

As long as the regulars here remained civil and respectful to one another, this wasn't really a problem. Unfortunately, in the last couple of months, this have changed as well. People I respect a great deal have suddenly acquired a really nasty edge. To put it bluntly: You guys are no longer fun be with.

I just came here today, after a break of a couple months, to see if things have improved a bit... and I get greeted by *this* fiasco. Well, guess not then.

Sorry for the interruption. You may return to your regular bickering and mutual bashing.
Jason R.
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 9:23am (UTC -6)
Omicron some of these tangents do tend to dominate the threads. But they are quickly flushed away by the comment stream and subsumed under the latest commentary on rando Voyager or Enterprise episodes. They rarely reach "toxic" levels as you say. The forum is fine as it is. Let people have their little disagreements and spats.

If someone making a mildly derogatory comment about an actress's weight is a "fiasco" then maybe you should withdraw from comment boards generally as you are overly sensitive.
Peter G.
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 10:05am (UTC -6)
"I believe one of those explanations. :D"

Because it's simplistic?
Lodged Twerpedo
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 10:06am (UTC -6)
Jason, obviously they aren’t flushed quickly, & I feel as if you could have worked harder to support Omicron instead of the obligatory get lost if you can’t deal with it. That seems way over the top, no?

That being said, Omicron, thanks for info. If Jammer chooses to not moderate, we must respect that he expects the other adults in the forum to moderate. Us! I have faith we can all be kinder to one another in this place. The rest of the world is struggling, so let’s endeavor to have a place here where everyone can feel better for a time, and respected. Sorry for any passive aggressive statements on my part or anything I wrote that may have offended anyone. I just want to know what you all think about Discovery, the good and the bad, and I hope we can all choose kindness more often, and be more thoughtful about the time we spend before hitting send.

I hope everyone has a beautiful day and is gearing up for People of Earth! 🖖
Yanks
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 10:42am (UTC -6)
Jammer has a family to take care of now. He trusts us to remain civil.

I think it has remained civil here. Disagreements sure, but I've seen much, much worse, and heated online at different Trek sites for sure. (with active moderation)

All is well, I'm just happy he's able to take the time and give us some episode reviews to chew on. I'm happy this site remains public so we can all participate together as new Trek hits the streets. I would hate for him to remove that option for us.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 12:04pm (UTC -6)
@Jason
"If someone making a mildly derogatory comment about an actress's weight is a 'fiasco'..."

Nope. That's not the problem I was alluding to.

"Let people have their little disagreements and spats."

You mean, "little disagreements" where people accuse one another of being white supremacists, or of being mentally ill?

Well, if that's the way you guys want to conduct your discussions, then nobody's stopping you. Have fun.

Just don't act so surprised when this behavior scares some people away.

@Lodged Twerpedo
"I feel as if you could have worked harder to support Omicron instead of the obligatory get lost if you can’t deal with it. That seems way over the top, no?"

The sad thing is that Jason is 100% right.

Given the current state of affairs here, I think that "get lost" is actually excellent advice. ;-)

Wonder if we'll also get the obligatory "drama seeker!" and the obligatory "don't let the door hit you on the way out". ;-)
Dave in MN
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:57pm (UTC -6)
@ Ralph

Biden IS senile, and I can guarantee you that if he wins the election, Kamala and her Cabinet will be saying the same thing within a year. 25th Amendment.
Lodged Burrito
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 3:34pm (UTC -6)
@omicron I was trying to let you know I didn’t want you to leave.
SlackerInc
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:24pm (UTC -6)
Chrome: "Being overweight is typically a temporary condition that can be controlled with a healthy lifestyle."

False.

https://slate.com/technology/2015/03/diets-do-not-work-the-thin-evidence-that-losing-weight-makes-you-healthier.html
"You’ll likely lose weight in the short term, but your chance of keeping if off for five years or more is about the same as your chance of surviving metastatic lung cancer...In reality, 97 percent of dieters regain everything they lost and then some within three years."

"Studies from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention repeatedly find the lowest mortality rates among people whose body mass index puts them in the 'overweight' and 'mildly obese' categories. And recent research suggests that losing weight doesn’t actually improve health biomarkers such as blood pressure, fasting glucose, or triglyceride levels for most people."

Studies also show that adopted children's BMI is strongly correlated with their biological families' BMI and not at all correlated with their adoptive families' BMI. What does that tell you?

I also know your claim is false from personal experience. I lift weights and do regular HIIT cardio, which gives me a low resting pulse rate and a one minute pulse recovery number of 45 BPM, near elite athlete level. My diet consists of leafy greens, multicolored veggies, whole grains, legumes, unsweetened berries, unsweetened yogurt, nuts, extra virgin olive oil, etc. I eat virtually zero sugar (just a little dark chocolate on occasion), and no white flour or other carbs or processed foods. The only juice I drink is unsweetened cranberry juice for its health benefits. But I'm still stubbornly overweight, and we're not talking about just five or ten pounds.

The reality is that eating a bad diet and/or not exercising enough is extremely bad for your health. But you can't tell whether that's the case by looking at someone's body shape.

As @Booming very accurately stated: "'This being hurtful doesn't mean that you cannot say or write it.' It just means that you are a bad person or are at least pissing away karma points."

And: "Is this just telling the truth or is this barely concealed douchebaggery."

I choose (B), Alex. Ding ding ding!

@Dave in MN: "The actress who plays Tilly had a baby right before filming resumed. As I said before, the actors are allowed to have private lives and they may have medical issues we are not privy to."

I didn't know this, but this makes it even more douchey to comment about it. I'm married with kids and I know very well that it's extremely tough for women to bounce back to their pre-baby weight. Whereas we men don't have to put our bodies through that at all, but we still get half the genetic contribution to the kids. Pretty unfair.

@Caoimhin: "I bet that guy with the comically large 20th century shovel is really pleased he gave up his life to accompany Burnham into the far future."

LOL! Good point.

@Dave in MN: SMH regarding the Biden/Harris comment. The discussion of weight actually is relevant to a character on the show, but this MAGA nonsense is completely off topic. Can you kindly stuff it?
Dave in MN
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:09pm (UTC -6)
@ SlackerInc

I was just making a prediction based on what I've seen of Biden's speeches and rallies and my previous work experience with seniors.

I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to express my perspnal opinion of Saint Joe of Scranton.
Jason R.
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:10pm (UTC -6)
@Slackerinc any doctor will tell you that obesity is comorbid with a vast number of health conditions. As someone coming from a family of doctors I have made these inquiries on numerous occasions. The only thing worse for your health is smoking. No medical professional will tell you that being overweight is a-ok especially as we age.

While it's true that weight isn't everything, it is absolutely a major issue and with type 2 diabetes increasingly prevalent in younger and younger cohorts, it is a serious issue that shouldn't be downplayed with specious arguments and rationalizations.

That said, the health issues from obesity aren't really relevant to whether or not one should fat shame. It's pretty apparent that shaming has never been an effective tool for public health so one thing has little to do with the other - although I am disturbed at attempts by some to claim that obesity, indeed, morbid obesity, can be consistent with a healthy lifestyle. Plainly it isn't. But I assume your stats are more aimed at very moderate degrees of being overweight.
John
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:23pm (UTC -6)
"I also know your claim is false from personal experience. I lift weights and do regular HIIT cardio, which gives me a low resting pulse rate and a one minute pulse recovery number of 45 BPM, near elite athlete level. My diet consists of leafy greens, multicolored veggies, whole grains, legumes, unsweetened berries, unsweetened yogurt, nuts, extra virgin olive oil, etc. I eat virtually zero sugar (just a little dark chocolate on occasion), and no white flour or other carbs or processed foods. The only juice I drink is unsweetened cranberry juice for its health benefits. But I'm still stubbornly overweight, and we're not talking about just five or ten pounds."

Going way off topic now, but weight training always seemed to me a dreadfully unhealthy/unnatural way to keep fit, and I've certainly seen a lot of overweight weight lifters. If you want my personal experience (which I doubt, but I'll give it anyway), I've told myself in the past that I ate healthy because I was eating lots of green stuff, but it was only when I ate less of it, stopped eating for 12 hours a day, and did exercise I actually enjoyed (yoga - I mean, have you ever seen a fat yogi?) most days that I kept a consistently regular healthy weight.

PS - juice has a ton of sugar, which I'm sure you're aware of.
SlackerInc
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:54pm (UTC -6)
@John, did you miss the "HIIT cardio" mention, and discussion of my resting pulse rate and recovery rate?

I'm aware that most juices have lots of sugar, which is why I eschew them. I only drink a few ounces of unsweetened cranberry juice (not cranberry cocktail as in the viral video!) for its myriad health benefits: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322731#takeaway

But again, the most important point I made was probably not one I highlighted enough:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X1630106X#:~:text=Our%20main%20finding%20is%20that,that%20intergenerational%20transmission%20occurs%20primarily
"We find that BMI and obesity are strongly correlated among biological parent-child pairs, but there are no significant intergenerational associations in these health traits among adoptive parent-child pairs."

Think about the staggering significance of this finding. Given this fact, how can anyone think any kind of advice could possibly have an impact on someone's body shape, if being raised for 18 years by someone has no impact, but sharing someone's genes and having no further contact with them has a huge effect? People who think otherwise are obliviously patting themselves on the back for having good genes.
Peter G.
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:10pm (UTC -6)
@ SlackerInc,

Uh, you are aware that genetic predisposition will both tend to skew results towards that disposition, but also leaves room for human choice and will? One body may put on weight much easier than another - even requiring extraordinary efforts to prevent it. So that raises the difficulty bar for some, for sure. But you are making the stats error of saying that because 'people' tend towards their genetic physical tendency therefore "I* cannot do anything about it, which is a fallacy. Going with that logic we may as well not bother cautioning people with genetic predisposition away from alcoholism; after all they're 'doomed' anyhow.

What I think it would be more proper to argue is that if someone next to do appears to be 'failing' it's worth asking how high their difficulty level was compared to yours. Not that we even really want to make that comparison and fight the point, but rather just to realize that (using a gaming analogy) getting beat on crazy mode doesn't mean you did worse than someone else who beat the level boss on easy mode. However this analogy falls short on the one point that unlike a video game, it's realistically not actually *impossible* for someone to beat the calories in / calories out, whereas obviously a given player may actually not be able to beat a tough level of a game.

The thing most needful to mention is lifestyle choice, of which diet is a factor but clearly not the most relevant one if the lifestyle is already sedentary and inactive. The vicious cycle gets really vicious when your body feels like it can go to sleep and store everything as fat, with fake hunger spiking, etc etc. However in the case of an actress who was recently pregnant...well I'd say that's probably not a lifestyle choice that should be considered as any kind of problem. It's just that when you're on camera everything is magnified and it's really inevitable that people will notice, even comment on it. As I mentioned above, at that point it comes down to the attitude in conveying the observation.
SlackerInc
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:32pm (UTC -6)
"Going with that logic we may as well not bother cautioning people with genetic predisposition away from alcoholism; after all they're 'doomed' anyhow."

I'd say that's probably sadly true.
Jammer
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 8:39pm (UTC -6)
Review now posted.
FlyingSquirrel
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 8:40pm (UTC -6)
Is it possible that Detmer's condition is not PTSD but rather survivor's guilt? She found out that one of the crew had died shortly after arriving in sickbay, and maybe, having been at the helm during the crash, she is worried that she could have done something differently that would have resulted in that crew member surviving.
Dave in MN
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 10:38pm (UTC -6)
@ Jammer

I didn't even think about it until I read your review, but it very much seems like something the previous showrunners would have gone.

I'm hoping that Michael's not going to explain everything to the crew/viewer all season.
SlackerInc
Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:05pm (UTC -6)
Good review. As you said, it may be the braids, but Michael did seem like she had just come back from a "Stella got her groove back" type vacay in the Seychelles.
Tomalak
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 2:29am (UTC -6)
@Sen-Sors "I don't think pointing out an actor's weight gain on a TV show makes someone a bad person, and it's worth noting that Tomalek has commented on many other aspects of the show besides that topic. However, the defense of "genuinely curious of what you dislike about me saying this, I'm just pointing out the truth" comes off as a little disingenuous. A bit babe-in-the-woods, if you will. Surely we are all aware of the context of people's weight, self-esteem and the judgement society will often place upon you in relation to it."

My tone is more like scepticism that the person I am asking has a good reason for these taboos, if they really think about it. But obviously you can't engage with someone's reasoning until they explain it. Certainly if someone can provide a really good reason to avoid mentioning in passing a Star Trek character's weight gain, I am all ears. But the very fact that people's self esteem (whatever that is) is partly based on their looks and health does not preclude rational discussion or sound like a good reason to avoid talking about it on this kind of forum at all.
Yes, not every post here has been rational or mature, but that says more about the person making the post than the topic of nutrition and weight gain, which millions of people around the world discuss calmly and rationally every day. And let's be honest, all the genuinely insulting posts in this thread have been in one direction and have come from one person, Boomer, who clearly has a history of it on this web site on other topics. Suggesting that it's been "mutual bashing" (someone else's phrase not yours) or an outbreak of rage and fury is very unfair to everyone else here, on either side of the discussion.

@Cody B "If Tilly were chain smoking cigarettes the whole series and they were real it would be fine to not just mention it’s not healthy but it would be fine to say she’s stupid etc. Mention the obvious that a character has gained a lot of weight in two years and that’s just a no go zone."

Yes, this is one reason I ask for people to justify their distaste and anger at this discussion topic. Not only are there some unargued premises at work here that at very least need articulating, but there also seem to be some very obvious double standards and inconsistencies at work.

I wonder if sexism is at work here too, given apparently we had a discussion about Riker's weight gain. Did that meet with the same opposition and anger or are people applying one rule for male characters (and, I suppose the actors who play them) and another for women? Similarly, in this very thread, when Tilly's weight was mentioned Boomer fired back with male Star Trek characters who were overweight, before later deciding that even mentioning such things causes anorexia and makes the person who says it a douchebag and all manner of other childish insults.

@SlackerInc A few thoughts. I agree studies showing how much adopted children are like their biological and unlike their adoptive parents are hugely important in their implications. But I am unsure how much you can go from "at a statistical level, genetics explains a huge % of variation in a trait [like obesity] across a large range of people" to "at an individual level, genetics is by far the main driver of whether someone is obese/some other trait". I don't fully understand why this is an error myself, but this is something scientists often clarify as it's misunderstood a lot. Peter G has sort of explained why.

You say your personal experience is that exercise and a healthy diet don't help you shift weight. All I can say is that I have found exactly the opposite many times in my life. When I exercise and eat right, it makes a massive difference. When I don't, it makes a massive difference in the other direction. Like you, I have read the type of studies you cite but I can't say I am convinced that they merit media headlines like "diets don't work". Whenever I've looked at studies downplaying exercise, for example, they actually seem to show the limited impact of exceedingly modest amounts of exercise, which is no doubt true. But journalists then hype these studies as "exercise can't help you lose weight". It's the difference between saying saving and investing tiny amounts of money a year won't make you rich and saying no amount of saving and investment can ever make you rich.

Your first quote fits the genre: it seems to be a sensationalist way of saying that there are no short-term diets that will overcome years of subsequent bad eating habits. Who would disagree with such a modest claim? But show me the bodies of two people, one with years or decades of a healthy diet and regular exercise and the other with neither of those things and I am confident I'll be able to tell the difference way better than you'd be able to predict by chance. I am confident that you could too.
Booming
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 2:34am (UTC -6)
Great review.
Jason R.
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 5:56am (UTC -6)
I like Peter G.'s analogy of playing a game on "hard" mode versus "easy" mode.

I personally think that obesity does have a huge genetic component and I try my best not to judge overweight people. Losing weight is very difficult even for people playing on "normal" mode especially as we age.

But the reality is that whatever its cause, obesity is not healthy, end of story. Talk to a doctor. It isn't, sorry.

Yes skinny people may also be unhealthy for a host of reasons yet that doesn't make obesity okay health wise. It's like saying because some non smokers are in terrible health and some smokers are in good health therefore smoking isn't unhealthy. Total malarkey.

I actually read an article on the Huffpost a couple years ago (naturally) written by a person who was not just obese but obviously morbidly obese, like 250+ lbs from the look of her. Her big spiel was that she was in perfect health because her "numbers" were fine and I guess the argument was that everyone should love their bodies, which I don't dispute by the way.

But I guess the problem there is that while yes, obesity has a big genetic component, once you are getting into certain numbers I'm sorry there is no conceivable way lifestyle isn't a big factor (absent a thyroid condition or side effects from medications).

In addition, almost everyone has good numbers when they are young. Very few in their twenties like this Huffpost woman has Type 2 diabetes (yet) (although I should add that there is an alarming trend of young people and even juveniles being diagnosed now!). But at that weight, you at high risk for a laundry list of conditions from diabetes to heart disease to cancer to orthopedic knee issues.... Diabetes alone is comorbid with pretty much everything bad you can imagine.

So bottom line yes genetics matters, but plainly it is not everything. And yes, being overweight is very bad health wise. And yes, we are definitely getting fatter in our society, so fat that my sister (a pediatrician fresh out of residency) is looking into jobs at juvenile obesity clinics which she tells me is a growth industry (pardon the pun)
Tomalak
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 6:34am (UTC -6)
Good post, Jason. I genuinely want to understand if saying things like "whatever its cause, obesity is not healthy, end of story. Talk to a doctor. It isn't, sorry" is considered body-shaming or not by some of those who have used the term here?

"Body-shaming" seems to be used in a deliberately misleading way to conflate comments as reasonable as yours or mine in this thread right up to being grossly insulting to people who are struggling with their weight, something no one would reasonably support. It also seems to disguise a ferociously ideological anti-science agenda that says being fat is no problem for health and that being less attracted to fat people is a cultural construct caused by society rather than an innate preference driven by evolution that no amount of cultural change can alter. This kind of thinking is not just mistaken but intellectually disreputable.
Scottathew
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 7:10am (UTC -6)
Hello future readers. This episode came out just days before the 2020 election and after months of COVID restrictions. Please forgive us.

Gents and ladies, please, I beg thee, let's end the political conversation. This isn't the appropriate space for it.

Thanks!
Jammer
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 12:02pm (UTC -6)
So a few words on moderation (for those who may have newly joined us), or the general lack thereof in these comment threads.

I typically avoid the comments until I've written my review, so that I'm not tempted to be influenced by (or try to discuss in my review) every point that comes up in the conversation. In the case of this week, I didn't get to writing my review for several days, and the comment thread piled up, and it took me time to catch up with 200 comments after I wrote and posted my review. As you can imagine, moderation at that point is beyond moot and pointless.

That being said, moderation is often pointless anyway.

The general rules here are: Don't be a jerk. Don't argue in bad faith. Don't attack others personally. Really, nearly all things could be solved with: Make your comments about the episodes and related issues, and not the other posters. Also, lots of things could be solved with: Let it go, rather than trying to defeat your opponent with endless bickering.

Now, I realize a lot of that, with the nature of discussion, is simply not going to happen. People are going to be people. I'm not going to step in and babysit and micromanage a conversation because some people feel that someone else shouldn't have said something. Not unless it gets really bad or toxic, anyway. Never say never. It happens.

What I've found when I do step in and try to moderate is that people sure love the idea of moderation until it's applied to THEM, at which point, boy, they sure hate it, because I'm so unfair and terrible. Go figure.

So I generally try to stay out of it. What I want to discuss is generally in my review and I simply don't have time to engage much beyond that. I barely have time to write the reviews and administer the site. So if you want regular moderation: nope. Not gonna happen. You wouldn't like it if I did it anyway. Because I can't adjudicate every squabble and perceived slight and please everyone.

Besides, discussions here are WAY better than most of what I see elsewhere. WAY better. And that's a testament to most of you for playing (mostly) nice.

Regarding the discussion of, say, an actress' weight gain, my position is that it's kind of rude and probably doesn't need to be said at all, and one probably knows how it's likely to be received by some people, so why say it -- but that's my OWN opinion and sense of tact, and I'm not going to apply that standard to everyone else and start stepping in and wagging my finger at people, especially if their argument appears to be in good faith and is not actively trying to be toxic.

So this will continue to be laissez-faire, unless and until things deteriorate. If you don't like it, there's a link right above the comments that says "Hide comments." Click it and then you won't have to see stuff that bothers you.
Dave in MN
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 1:45pm (UTC -6)
@ SlackerInc

After my sister had a child, her metabolism definitely changed. I think some guys don't understand that pregnancy can have lingering after-effects.

I know it's statistically unlikely, but I sincerely hope that Mary Wiseman (or her relatives) never see the comments here.

She seems like a genuinely nice person and it bums me out to think she might see this and be saddened by it.
SlackerInc
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:58pm (UTC -6)
@Jammer: Well said, and very judicious. I agree that the conversations are far less toxic here than elsewhere. I don't like what some people have said about Tilly, but it's certainly not on a par with some of the OTT vulgar things you'll see in many places.

@Dave in MN: Despite our obvious political differences, we can definitely have a "Kum Ba Ya" moment on that point! Well said. (And I don't think people should be too quick to dismiss the idea that a very active site, which has been a prominent locus of Trek fandom for a quarter century, would be looked at by people who work on a show that is only available on a relatively unpopular streaming service which does not publish Nielsen numbers and therefore invites looking online to get a sense of the level of fandom for it.)

@Tomalak: "It also seems to disguise a ferociously ideological anti-science agenda"

Funny, I could have sworn I was the only one in this discussion to cite, quote, and link to scientific studies.

And I have consistently averred that eating what is called SAD (Standard American Diet) is very, *very* unhealthy, as is being sedentary. You can't tell from someone's shape (assuming they are not morbidly obese, which is not the case with Mary Wiseman aka Tilly) whether that is the case or not. What *is* the case is that *most* Americans, *whatever their body shape*, fall into this unhealthy category. I guarantee you that I have a healthier lifestyle than at least 98 percent of Americans, but if you passed me on the street you'd probably assume that I sit on the couch every night with pizza and Pepsi. Which is pretty annoying.
Yanks
Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 7:56pm (UTC -6)
Nice review Jammer.
Tomalak
Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 5:49am (UTC -6)
@Jammer - well said.

@Slacker, I think you've responded to one of my points that wasn't aimed at you (I thought clearly, but probably not) about an anti-science ideological agenda, and ignored all the ones that were?

@Dave, I take the point but if you believe this why do you and others with similar views keep repeating the actress's name, as if it was her and not Tilly that Cody and I had commented on? By far the most likely way she would stumble across this is by googling her name.
Dave in MN
Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 2:23pm (UTC -6)
@ Tomalak

It's a bit silly to say that I'm somehow responsible too because I mentioned her name (while not actually spelling her last name correctly).

Why would you assume the actress (or her family) would only stumble upon this website after an open-ended Google search? Jammer's Reviews doesn't show up on the first 10 pages of results when you type her name in.

t seems more likely she'd just be curious to see how her performance is being received by fans.

Anyways, I just found out amusing that blame is being spread about in such a manner. I didn't call her "unrecognizable" "fat" and "ballooning", YOU did.

Own your statements.
SlackerInc
Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 3:03pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN, well said once again.
SlackerInc
Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 5:13pm (UTC -6)
This show was the correct response for a clue on Jeopardy today, but all three contestants got it wrong. Shazbot!
Startrekwatcher
Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 4:00am (UTC -6)
This overly expensive Star Trek prequel turned sequel series was the final nail In creativity In the franchise’s five decades long run

alex, What is Star Trek Discovery?
Patrick
Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 4:02am (UTC -6)
@Jammer
Some commenters go on and on about some random detail or offtopic philosophical interests. Discussions should be related closely to the episode. See the weight thing here. It goes on forever. Its not a crime to mention weight gain imho, especially kind of welcomed for Americans since its a huge issue there (saw it in reality when visiting; quite a difference from small Holland, food and drink portions are just crazy and not helping at all). Just ignore it when you dont agree, or leave it to one line in your comment. If only one person mentions it, it stays at one person making the possibly harsh comment. Now it gets way more attention.

These offtopic discussions annoys many casual readers and make them skip the more insightful comments, which is a pitty. It doesnt help that the site wont allow readers to rate comments so some will be hidden by default.

This episode: more cowboys and fantasy in space, but for that I have the excellent Firefly!
Startrekwatcher
Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 4:15am (UTC -6)
I think the off topic is a commentary on the quality of the episodes. The episode themselves have nothing to offer so people dwell on stuff that otherwise wouldn’t be given much attention on another show of quality
EventualZen
Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 4:58pm (UTC -6)
I commend Jammer for his laissez-faire attitude to moderation. I'm a true believer in free speech, so much so that I believe even the Westboro Baptist Church should be allowed to say the hateful things they say. Don't get me wrong, I think they're a bunch of mean-spirited assholes, but I strongly believe in peoples' right to express opposing views to my own no matter how much I disagree with them.
MidshipmanNorris
Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 7:12pm (UTC -6)
... Ehhhhh.

Not half bad, but nothing earth-shaking here either.

That's what bugs me about Star Trek under NBC, I think. Everything comes off as a half-measure. They solve the problem of having to divide time between all these different ideas/elements/et al of Star Trek, by just touching one, then moving on to another one with a lick and a promise.

In Star Trek Movie Memories, pp.93-94, Leonard Nimoy said (of The Motion Picture):

"Ultimately I trusted Bob Wise, but I was also scared of making this film, mainly because I felt that we had accomplished something amazing with our seventy-nine television episodes. I really did. I was very proud of that series, and I felt like the driving force behind the film project might not be creativity, but profit potential. It scared me to think that the real impetus behind finally putting the Enterprise on the big screen might have been provided solely by the box office receipts of Star Wars. People would say to me, 'It's gonna happen. We're gonna get the budget.' And I would always be thinking, Well, what's it ABOUT? What are we going to DO? I didn't want to be embarrassed, and I didn't want to embarrass the franchise. I thought we left behind a legendary accomplishment. I really mean that. Legendary. Certainly we had made our share of turkeys, but there was always a very real sense of conviction in what we were doing. There was a core to it, an idea behind it, a continuity. I took real pride in that."

Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Picard, and Star Trek: Lower Decks don't seem like they have this same sense of conviction about making a good story. It all comes off as watered-down, to me.

My initial enthusiasm has gone down by an undefined number of enthusiasm points.
Peter Swinkels
Mon, Nov 2, 2020, 8:56am (UTC -6)
bored - sounds like mindless but entertaining action - should give it a watch. It would make a nice distraction.
Peter Swinkels
Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 10:10am (UTC -6)
This episode was pretty good, and the main actors did a pretty good job acting. The action was also well done. While Discovery isn't exactly what I had hoped keeping in mind it is supposed to be Star Trek I think I can learn to accept it as it is.

Also, why is the reviewer making such a big deal of those flapdoors? If we're gonna nitpick like that I could throw a fit over that surprisingly 20st century looking mining machine that was in view for a few secs!
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 10:36pm (UTC -6)
@Jammer
"So this will continue to be laissez-faire, unless and until things deteriorate."

Things have already deteriorated.

It's just that the worst of it happened while you weren't even here (before DSC S3 started) so you aren't even aware that there is a problem.

All the recent complaints about "off topic discussions" are giving you a wrong idea of both the nature of the problem and it's severity.

We always had off-topic discussions. That's not the problem.

The problem is that the past year was a very stressful year, and too many people (including - sadly - some of our most respected regular members) are taking their frustration out their fellow commenters.

Since about July or August, the discussions here became nastier. To put it bluntly: It's no longer fun being around these people.

I'm not blaming anybody here. It *has* been a crazy year. But please understand that things have changed here while you were away.

As for what you, as the site owner, can do about it:

I don't know.

On the one hand, I agree that micromanaging discussions is pointless and even counterproductive. The core members here are intelligent adults who are basically nice people. We don't need a top-censor to tell us what to talk about, or a preschool teacher to keep our "bratty behavior" in check.

On the other hand, I don't think that doing nothing is the answer either.

It's your site and your call.

As for this:
"If you don't like it, there's a link right above the comments that says 'Hide comments.' "

Ehm... You do realize that the comments are the main asset on your site, right? If people did as you suggested, why visit this site at all?

To passively read a review that comes once a week? To be blunt, telling people to ignore the vibrant community on your site, is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Britz94
Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 5:06am (UTC -6)
So the writers travel 900 years into the future to escape the burden of Trek Continuity and the 2nd episode is set almost entirely in a saloon, and we see a mining town ripped from a Studio Ghibli movie.

Seems like an incredible lack of imagination. Not only that but all the Humans and Aliens act exactly the same as humans do now, everyone is spiteful, snarky, sarcastic and morally repugnant.

Either the characters are written to be psychopaths or it's the writers projecting that quality on to them. What a heinous portrayal of the future.
Austin
Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 6:53pm (UTC -6)
I enjoyed the use of a pidgin language here, implying universal translators aren’t so universal anymore. I assume after the Federation collapses, there’s a technological and economic vacuum similar to Britain after the fall of Rome. Roman British had cities with centralized heating way back in 100CE or so, but after the Roman Empire fell, everyone abandoned cities for the country life again and centralized heating wouldn’t come back to the island until about the 18th-19th century. Clearly, the fall of the Federation has set society back some, but not so far back that everyone can still get their personal transporter.

But back to pidgin... very neat idea calling the Federation “V’draysh”. Like a slurred version of “Federash”. Someone put some thought into that.... granted it’s not like inventing an entire language, but who would do that just for Star Trek? *wink wink nudge nudge*

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