“Ties of Blood and Water”

Ah, yes...a truly good episode with some rather moving scenes. But I will always remember this one for the gold standard of comic relief scenes ("that was quite toxic, wasn't it?" indeed...gotta love that Weyoun).

When I first watched this episode as a teenager, I found it "slow" and didn't quite get it. When I saw it again on DVD almost ten years later it completely blew me away. Nana Visitor was outstanding. I especially liked her in the flashback sequences, such as when she calmly explained to her father that "I'm going to make them pay."

While I agree with Jammer that her final speech seemed forced and unnecessary, I think she rescued it with the passion of her acting. Her facial expressions while delivering the lines about Ghemor taking his last breaths were heartbreaking to watch.

Oh God, the poisoned drink scene! It was brilliant and so hilarious. I was still laughing minutes after it.

Although you might not agree...I found that last scene very powerful, with Kira's narration. The emotional wringer this episode puts you through...the joy at seeing them reunited (and I wonder if there was a bit more contact than what was hinted at, personally), the shock of realizing that Ghemor was going to die, Kira's dedication...at first...

And then the way she snapped and lashed out at him--at that point, I wanted to physically SMACK her because what she did to him was so completely disgusting and wrong.

But the end, when she came around...I think that narration scene was necessary because we needed to see just how much she had let herself *feel*, while still allowing Ghemor the dignity to pass without us (the viewers) gawking. Kira had to redeem herself, as well as relate what happened; otherwise, I would not have accepted it.

In the end, it was incredibly poignant, powerful, and one of my favorite DS9 episodes, hands down.

There is one thing that bothers me about this episode is how sloppy Dukat and Weyoun are. Why bother to fly over in a Jem'Hadar BATTLE CRUISER and never even threaten to attack the station? They may not have known how much Ghemor was able to reveal to the Federation, but if I had been Dukat I'd have made sure he died within an hour of arriving at the station. I understand that the action would have distracted from the "important" stuff with Kira & Ghemor, but it makes absoloutely no sense (I'll call it the 'Soft-Headed Aliens of the Week' - a flipside to Voyager's Forced Conflict Aliens of the Week)

Nic, Dukat *did* threaten to attack the station. He just didn't put his threat into words. The ship he came in, big and dangerous with weapons armed, was all the threat he needed to give.

(As an aside, though it would have distracted entirely from the episode, I'd have found it very amusing to watch Dukat actually attempt to attack DS9 with one lone battlecruiser)

I'm not sure looking back at it whether I knew this episode was great and the details slipped from my mind, or if the appreciation of its finer points required more maturity than I had when I first saw it. Either way, I would unblinking give it the full four stars, even with Kira's forced closing soliloquy. The subtle interplay between Kira and Sisko, Kira and Dukat, even Kira and Bashir, draw wonderfully and build on a dramatic groundwork laid over years of solid writing and acting.

I don't even know where to start with Jeffrey Combs in this one... if Nana Visitor hadn't brought her A game, he would have stolen the show.

The stars don;t match...the season page has 3 stars but the episode page has 3.5...

One would think Kira's relationship with Ghemor (not to mention Ziyal) would have held her tongue in all those remarks about how Cardassians are all alike in their treachery...

I was also a little disturbed by Kira's smile after Ghemor's rejecting of Dukat's offer--he had just gone through a bit of an emotional crisis wherein he was given promise about Ilyana, but it seems like all she cares about is that he refused. It's not a comment about her character but it is another example of the strange acting/directing choices in this show--it's not the first time someone laughed or smiled at an inappropriate moment. I'm not quite sure what to make of it...

What I don't like about Dukat, despite his deliciousness as a villan, is that it seems like all the character work over the years was a charade--he's been this opportunist all along, but the show went out of its way to make him sympathetic. Was it all for the "big reveal" that he'd allied Cardassia with the Dominion? That seems like a big waste (of course that's nothing compared to the depths to which they will plunge him ludicrously by the next season...soul catchers, I mean Pa' Wraiths...someone call Tom Cruise).

Jay: That's my error. The rating on this is 3 stars. Looks like I put the wrong rating on this page, and the right one on the season page. I'll get that fixed.

I think it was Robert Hewitt Wolfe who said he always was evil and out for number one. Look at his resistance campaign what's the real motivation there i wonder Caradassia or an oppurtunity to restore his career. Everything he's done has been for himself

This episode has a great moment when Weyoun drinks the poison Combs just sells that scene so well

That scene where Dukat visits Kira in her quarters was SO good. Kira played it perfectly in getting Dukat to admit that he gets "perverse pleasure" out of tearing down the one Cardassian she has any respect for, let alone affection. Even going so far as to freely call the attack on the Monastery a "massacre." It's clear he's come to terms with his villainy.

I don't know why, but I loved it when she chucked that teacup at him before delivering her threat. Nana Visitor was outstanding in that scene.

It always takes me out of an episode when the the Federation extends too much courtesy to an enemy... and that was my problem with this episode. The Dominion has, in the recent past, forcefully abducted a Starfleet officer (Bashir) and replaced him with an infiltrator, and the Federation does not recognize Dukat as the legitimate leader of Cardassia. Why would Sisko even entertain their request, let alone allow them onto the station?

Anyone else think that the recurring character of Kira's real father is incredibly annoying? He comes across as dizzy and weak in every episode that he features in (well at least the two that I recall, this and 'Wrongs Darker than..').

@ matt....you may never read this since your comment is a year old...but to answer your question (1) Sisko is stalling for time, he has no idea how long Ghemor has to tell his secrets so every last second counts from an intelligence standpoint, and (2) he knows what a preening sesquipedalian egotist Dukat is and that Duckat would never pass up the chance to gloat in person even when taking the time to gloat is not in his best interest.

Great acting all around in this epsiode! It's funny how really good acting can mean the difference between merely being a spectator and being "sucked" into the story like you were actually there.

Even Brooks pulled off a quite good performance here! (yes, I'm one of those people who think Brooks' acting is, in general, an embarassement to the show)

Combs as the curious, intrigued and light-hearted Weyoun is simply wonderful! What a great charisma that man has on screen!

And Visitor as Kira ... wow, that lady can act circles around most other good actors! The scene where she gets right up in Dukat's face, threatening him in a barely restrained tone of voice - she gets that seething fury across so well that I was half expecting her to rip out Dukat's throat!

And, of course, both Alaimo as Dukat and Pressman as Ghemor also deliver stellar performances.


I'm watching the show for the first time (all seven seasons of it) on DVD. This show has so many wonderful actors, in leading as well as supporting roles - with great characters for them to play! And the production is of a really high standard.

I'm completely hooked!

In the first flashback, you will notice a Bajoran standing in the background... wielding a kar'takin (Jem'hadar bladed weapon)... Does this ruin continuity?!? What are your thoughts?

A decent epsisode, but a bit slow for my tastes.

5/10

A good to middling episode, I was kept entertained enough to the end but the sentiment was laid on a bit thick and the audience was beaten around the head with the earnest-ness of it all.

Good script and acting from the support actors though and goes to show that when Avery Brooks dials it down he can be convincing, good use of all the guest stars actually. 2.5 Stars from me.

A beautiful, poignant sequel to "Second Skin". I've always adored this episode and is still one of my all-time favorites of DS9 to this day.

4 stars.

Elnis, I won't make a long summary because yours does it so nicely. My thoughts exactly.

Sooooooooo glad Weyoun because a reocurring character, "that was quite toxic, wasn't it?" was classic and telling of the character moving forward.

Again, Kira just seems so damn 'real' to me in episodes like this.

Great episode, 3.5 for me.

So let's get this straight... Hitler visits Churchill during WW2 and we just let that happen (and he is stupid enough to do that).

Ok.

I quite like this one. I was surprised to see its relatively negative reception over at the AV Club (which did a quality retrospective of the series that's nearly on par with this site).

There are minor flaws in this episode, such as having one line too many about Kira being all Ghemor has left. We get it. And, maybe not a fault of the episode, but I really feel its earnestness would have benefited from a middle chapter somewhere between "Second Skin" and now. "Ties" suggests Kira and Ghemor probably have had contact, but something more than that would have been welcome.

That said, it's a really solid episode with good character work for both Kira and Dukat. The Ghemor plot dovetails nicely into the show's current events, showing how rich and thoughtfully plotted DS9 is on the whole. Dukat's attempts to silence/convince Ghemor to return were satisfyingly treacherous (especially pulling out the daughter bait, at which Ghemor doesn't bite). The scene in Kira's quarters was so well done, played very viscerally by Visitor and Alaimo. It's obvious Kira hates Dukat, but there's something about the scene that just festers (it's the teacup she throws) that gives it the added kick.

Some last touches I really enjoyed:

-Weyoun having too much fun. He's just with Dukat because it's his job. He's probably seen the man's posturing in a hundred other would-be dictators the Dominion have puppeted over the years.

-The Cardassian propaganda machine. Dukat mentioning Ghemor's "conversion" is such a foul PR spin that it's to be expected at this point. Ghemor won't be buried on Cardassian soil, but his name will still sadly be used in the way he hoped to fight against.

Honestly, this one is an easy three but gets an extra half star for dangling and treating so many plot and character threads at once - so, 3 1/2 stars! A hidden gem in the pantheon of great DS9 hours.

A very powerful episode. Kira, as in Duet, emerged as a three dimensional character - her violent rejection of Ghemor masking deep guilt was very well done. And Dukat again showed just why he is one of the great villains (up there with Dick Dastardly!). The vanity that, every so often, threatens the success of his schemes has been there from the start. Completely in character. And if Kira had snogged him after throwing the teacup, you know he'd have gleefully responded.

I just finished "Ties of Blood and Water" and was moved not only to tears, but to sobs. This is at least an instant tie with TNG's "Half a Life" as my all-time favourite Trek episode. What a heart-breaking, and yet heart-warming episode! And the comic timing and delivery from the Weyoun actor was an exceptionally superb counterpoint. All in all, a superb exploration of politics, grief, and love.

The moment when Weyoun chugged the poisoned wine = one of the funniest moments in all of DS9. (Elevated further by Dukat's deadpan "Are you insane?")

Consider what would have happened if that had been one of the poisons Vorta weren't immune to, though...

One thing that always puzzled me;

"Still calling yourself Gul? I'm surprised you haven't promoted yourself back to Legate by now."

When was Dukat a Legate? As far as I can remember, Dukat has always been a Gul, from being the prefect of Bajor, to commanding the 3rd (?) Order, to advising the Detapa Council, to commanding the Groumall, to taking Cardassia into the Dominion and being the leader of Cardassia. I assumed for quite a while that Gul was his first name...

There are many good things about the Kira & Ghemour material in this episode, but I couldn't help feeling that their material was *overdetermined*. The episode has Kira & Ghemour as father/daughter, Cardassian/Bajoran, patient/nurse, mentor/pupil, and normally I would applaud the complexity...but there are so many layers happening at once that they actually, in this particular episode, get in the way of each other. The various elements stay mostly balanced for the first half of the episode, in which the parallels between Kira's father and Ghemour are made explicit, we are told the larger political ramifications of the secrets Ghemour can give her, and we are reminded, both by Dukat's presence and by the conversation with Worf and Dax in the teaser, that Kira does not normally like Cardassians and that there could be some landmines there. Up until then, the different levels mostly worked together. But then, in the episode's best, most magnetic scene, Dukat tells Kira that Ghemour participated in an infamous massacre, and after sniping at him briefly Kira abandons Ghemour to die alone, which, ahem, was exactly what Dukat wanted. After Odo tries to talk Kira into going to talk to Ghemour, Bashir comes in and does the same thing, but this time Bashir adds that there's no more time to talk to Ghemour about any trade secrets -- all that is left to do is to die, after which Kira goes to Ghemour, there is no dialogue between her and Ghemour on screen and Kira admits that she really was mostly avoiding Ghemour's death because of her father.

Now, in some ways, it is something of a "plot twist" that the information that Dukat gives Kira about Ghemour's death was not the "real reason" she was avoiding Ghemour, but merely a pretext. And yet.... The episode is so busy that it's easy to miss it, but what happens at this point is that Kira is getting secrets from Ghemour, because of her close relationship with him. Dukat then poisons that relationship, and Kira is angry at Ghemour, at which point she stops talking to him. Then Bashir says that there's no more time to talk secrets. So either:

1) Kira and Ghemour had already finished covering all Ghemour's secrets by the time Dukat got to Kira to poison her against Ghemour, so that Dukat only thought he did harm but didn't really; or
2) Kira and Ghemour were not done, which means that Kira let Dukat get under her skin to the point of actively hurting the Alpha Quadrant -- letting Ghemour's secrets go unexpressed -- without even bothering to find a replacement for her "hearing secrets" job. And she does so without anyone calling her on it, or, if they call her on it, it's cryptically (ala Odo) or for reasons unrelated to the big security threat that she is supposed to be working on as the station's first officer (ala Bashir). I think this is the more likely one.

Meanwhile, in that scene with Dukat, Kira is genuinely *very angry* -- nearly feral with him. And that works best if Kira were *really genuinely stung* by the revelations about Ghemour. Now, I get the impression that we are meant to believe that *consciously*, Kira was quite upset with Ghemour about his past, but deep down she was using that anger as a shield to protect herself from the pain of seeing a father figure die. And yet, that pain of discovery, and the anger at recognizing that Dukat took something that was pure and polluted it, loses something when it turns out Kira can shake off the revelation about Ghemour like a synthehol hangover. That's sort of the problem: it somehow does not track to me that Kira is sufficiently upset about Ghemour's past to be able to use it as a pretext to let him die alone and to stop doing her fate-of-the-Alpha Quadrant *job*, but not so upset that she can't dismiss it as entirely unimportant when she gets to the real meat of her dilemma, *even knowing* that she is not fully conscious of what is really scaring her until toward the end.

Ghemour's importance to Kira was that he was a Good Cardassian, one who was even in power (as opposed to Marritza), but the episode pushes the parallel with Kira's father so much that as the episode goes on, everything else drops away -- Ghemour's secrets which are potentially devastating enough for Dukat and Weyoun to show up in person to poison him, the revelation that Ghemour was not the perfect man and that he has blood on his hands like other Cardassians -- until it's just Kira getting a chance to deal with her father's death right this time. Now, there are good things here, and I like how the *violence* of the Occupation serves as a smokescreen for Kira both times (either actively fighting, as in the past, or being "angry" and stewing over old fights in the present). But this kind of leaves Kira-Ghemour as being mostly just a way for her to work out her father issues, unless you really buy that Kira and Ghemour have that close a relationship in the present. To be honest, I would rather have Kira actually work through and realize that she can forgive Cardassians who did bad things during the Occupation rather than have Odo basically tell her that she doesn't really care. And if I thought that this episode was really about Kira-Ghemour, I would want that processing to really happen, for Kira to deal with Ghemour as the Good Cardassian figure that she's idealized, rather than a reincarnation of her father.

To some extent, Kira dealing with Ghemour's death as Ghemour and Ghemour's death as her father, mark II could work in tandem, and for a while it looks like the episode is going to balance it all, but at some point it lets most of the story drop away, culminating in Ghemour being buried beside Kira's father. And while I know that Ghemour considered Kira "like a daughter" and he had nowhere else to go, the final shot makes me uneasy rather than filling me with joy; it's as if Ghemour really is *only meaningful* in that he is a figure through whom Kira can work out her father issues, and even the particular ways in which Kira related to Ghemour as a person -- some of which included the Good Cardassian figure, the shared interest in hurting the Cardassian-Dominion alliance -- were basically irrelevant. Kira and Ghemour may have had a lot of affection for each other, but they have very rarely interacted together except when talking politics, from the impression I get, and so the final act's totally eschewing all the political material also throws out most of what we've seen Kira and Ghemour interacting and talking about. It may simply be that I have a hard time quite accepting the premise that Kira and Ghemour are as close as the episode implies; to me, it makes much more sense that Ghemour projects Iliana onto Kira, and Kira projects her father onto Ghemour, and that they respect and like each other, and that their shared experiences through which they have actually bonded *as them* all have to do with intrigue and being shared victims of cloak-and-dagger politics, a shared bond by virtue of being rebels (dissident/Resistance). That she was fighting the Cardassians while she was a teenager and he was a true believer really does matter on that score, not so much that she should leave him to die, but so much that I think that if I am to believe the Kira-Ghemour bond I really would like to see some actual follow-up in how Kira incorporates that knowledge into her view of him. The final over-explaining monologue where Kira and Bashir talk for minutes about how Ghemour's death was like her father's doesn't really help to maintain the value the Kira-Ghemour bond had as its own thing.

I hope I am explaining this well, because it does bother me but I do see a lot of good here -- the basic idea that Kira really has these traumas which impact the present is solid. The episode just feel short for me in pulling the emotional threads together, and as a result I was kicked out of the story, despite having a strong first half and some good elements throughout. I want to also add that Dukat is really, really delicious here though, and Weyoun is a riot. 2.5 stars from me.

A bit more: It is not actually that hard to believe that Kira is both bothered by Ghemour's past military activities, AND does not want to watch a father figure die. It just seems to me that the episode almost drops the "Kira is upset about his past actions" like a hot potato toward the end of the episode, in a way that feels false to me. I also think that someone should have told Kira that she should talk to Ghemour because it's her freaking job -- that she lets Dukat sway her from listening to Ghemour and does not get in a replacement and no one even calls her on it is pretty frustrating.

A lot of the problems I have with this episode are minor versions of the much bigger problems I have with next year's "Wrongs Darker Than Death Or Night," so, stay tuned! (On the plus side for *that* episode, I find Meru more fully realized in "Wrongs..." than I do Ghemour here.)

DLPB says: "So let's get this straight... Hitler visits Churchill during WW2 and we just let that happen (and he is stupid enough to do that)."

The Federation is not at war with the Dominion (or their Cardassian subsidiary). This is currently a cold war, with no shots being fired. Dukat is making demands and veiled threats to see what he can get away with, because he knows the Federation doesn't want a real war. But the Dominion doesn't want a war either (at least not yet), so there aren't any immediate consequences when Sisko fails to yield to the demands.

If you want a historical analogy using a recognizable figure from history, this would be like Khrushchev going to America during the Cold War. And, yes, that happened.

The politics of this episode are well-done.

The Dominion by this point has been openly aggressive and attacked the Federation. It's also making threats. There is no way you'd have an envoy coming aboard talking tactics.

If you think the politics are well done, you know very little of real world politics.

They're not talking military tactics. They're talking diplomacy. Yes, diplomacy can and does include making threats. Study up on your "real world" diplomacy.

Nations host diplomats from countries that make threats all the time. China, for instance, regularly makes threats to the US and several Asian countries concerning Taiwan, the Dalai Lama, Ocean boundaries, and other items. Their president still comes to America. Before World War II in Europe, both sides had full embassies in the nations of their soon-to-be enemies up until the month before all-out war started, and some diplomatic staff were still present when the war started. Russia still has an embassy in the Ukraine despite annexing a portion of the country and supporting armed forces seeking to seize control of a bigger portion. Smaller nations around the world make threats to their neighbors concerning borders, shared resources, treatment of its citizens, etc. Even when tensions get quite high, there can be high-level diplomatic exchanges, and war does not always break out.

The fact that the Federation & Dominion have not exchanged ambassadors makes it even more certain the Federation would not miss an opportunity to have a face-to-face meeting with people representing the Dominion. That nothing productive happened from the meeting is not unsurprising, but that doesn't mean it was wrong to try.

This strives so very hard to achieve an emotional punch, and through the strength of the performances nearly gets there, but in the end it comes up short and strays just over the line of contrivance and melodrama. The dramatic action feels just a little trite for me.

Indeed, the highlights in the programme revolve not around the central story but the little confrontations that spin off of it - Kira and Dukat, where it's good to see the ass-kicking Kira back again - and Sisko/Dukat/Weyoun, which is a rare pleasure. 2.5 stars.

"Ties of Blood and Water" has a lot going for it - emotion, politics, death, Occupation flashbacks (almost always a plus) and continuity. At it's core is a very well-told story about Kira's fear of facing the death of those she cares about and particularly about how her father's death (and how she ran away from it) have affected her. It's a great story with great acting and great characters. The story of Kira's days in the resistance (and the Occupation in general) has provided wonderful material for the show before and it does so again here. It's not perfect, however. Jammer is right that the emotional punch is somewhat lacking since we haven't seen or heard from Ghemor since "Second Skin". You can't just drop something like this on the audience and make it work perfectly (though they did a damn fine job none-the-less). There's also the final scene with Kira and Bashir. While I really liked that it had a very confessional atmosphere to it (with Bashir in place of a priest and Kira as the penitent - right down to Kira sitting in tears while confessing and Bashir standing with a look of detached compassion) (all it lacked was some kind of screen between them), it was ultimately unnecessary as the flashbacks conveyed the message already.

Meanwhile the episode also offers a return to Cardassian politics following its absence since Dukat's deal with the devil. This was easily the best part of the episode. Dukat in his new role was both fun and intimidating. We also get the reintroduction of Weyoun, which is quite possibly one of the best decisions ever made on "Deep Space Nine". Weyoun is a remarkably enjoyable character and Jeffrey Combs always delivers the goods acting-wise - he can even make Brunt a somewhat intimidating villain when the situation allows him to - so I'm perfectly fine with retconning an entire alien species just to bring him back. The "quite toxic" scene is definitely a stand-out - dramatic, full of tension and intrigue, wonderfully acted by all involved, and genuinely funny when it needs to be.

WTF HAIR - 33 (+1)

8/10

Everything about Weyoun in this episode was outstanding.

The plot itself was good, although it didn't do a lot for me.

I thought it had been established that Kira was orphaned before she joined the resistance at age 14?

Shouldn't Sisko and all the federation brass have been pressuring Kira to make a little more of this intelligence opportunity? Walking off the job should have cost her a few demerits.

Just because Kira decided to walk out on him, shouldn't there at least have been a nurse or a volunteer or someone there with him when he was dying? There's a lot of space between dying while holding your adopted daughter's hand and dying completely alone in a room.

I've never understood the concept of clones taking over at the same age as the predecessor died. Aren't clones born as babies the same as anyone else? Or are there 10,000 Weyouns running around at the same time and it's just coincidence that one of the twins is assigned to Cardassia? Do the clones somehow inherit the memories of the predecessor? If they don't, shouldn't they have different names since they are actually different people with the same genes?

I actually would have liked the story told without flashbacks. Maybe add a sentence to the final conversation between Kira and Bashir. Maybe not even that. But maybe it wouldn't have worked as well. Maybe I just wanted more Weyoun.

2 stars. The episode really didn't resonate with me. I did like Dukat and Weyoin brought into things which definitely made sense but the main story didn't draw me in the way I show like this should have

I hate the whole "Look at what just showed up" plot device.

There's just no way a ship of any kind (uncloaked obviously) should be that close to the station before anyone makes a decision, especially if its weapons are armed. Surely the person in charge in Ops can order a defensive posture the moment a ship approaches with weapons armed.

Nana Visitor turns in another terrific performance and the Kira character gets a chance to atone for missing her father's death on purpose -- poignant stuff indeed. It's a great episode that ties the past (Occupation and "Second Skin") with the future (impending Dominion war) in a neat way. It was slow-paced at times but the payoff is worth it. Always enjoy Dukat sparring with Kira and Sisko.

I thought it was odd that Sisko would even allow Dukat and Weyoun on DS9. But I guess war technically hasn't broken out. But even more strange was allowing these 2 to see the dying Ghemor -- Dukat even tries to poison him in an underhanded way. Dukat is an outstanding character -- the tricks he tries to silence Ghemor, undermine Kira's faith in Ghemor -- well concocted stuff.

What was up with Weyoun here? Playing dabo, drinking poison, being a goofball in general -- didn't seem appropriate given the weight of this episode. But the poison scene between Dukat and Sisko was terrific -- just to see their reactions and especially when Weyoun drank the poison.

Intriguing use of the flashbacks -- at first it wasn't clear what the connection was but the ending makes it crystal clear. Can understand Kira's regret about her father's death and the chance to get it right. I take a slight issue with her doing a 180 thinking Ghemor lied to her and turning away from him even as others seemed to say he didn't have that big a role to play in the massacre at the monastery. Who knows. But she comes around for her own purposes. Nice ending with her burying Ghemor on Bajor and not giving the body to Dukat.

Good enough for 3 stars for "Ties of Blood and Water" -- strong character story for Kira and a well-constructed episode that touches on a number of DS9 themes and past stories. Had some classic encounters between Dukat and Kira/Sisko but it dragged at times for the Ghemor/Kira parts. Weyoun comes across as a clown -- hard to take him seriously. Good to get back to what's at the heart of DS9 after 3 mediocre outings since "By Inferno's Light".

I quite like "Ties of Blood and Water", but I preferred "Second Skin". This episode has some wonderful moments but it drags in places. Before we get to that however, let's discuss what works. The flashbacks with Kira are compelling and provide valuable insight into her character. The re-introduction of Jefferey Combs as Weyoun to the series is an excellent decision that pays of well. The relationship between Kira and Ghemor builds off of the work done in "Second Skin", and the relationship feels sensible....at first. Kira's turn from tending to his every need to treating him like a nuisance due to his role in a massacre doesn't quite ring true. Of course, that's the point-she's not really angry at Ghemor, she's angry at herself for not being there for her own father's death. But it still feels a little forced.

3 stars.

@Quarkissnyder

I always figured that Weyoun goes in for frequent "brain scans" to have his current memories recorded, and then if he dies, they simple "grow" another Weyoun and then "upload" all the memories of the previous Weyoun into his brain. The growth of the clone is probably accelerated to get him the right age, or maybe Vorta are just genetically engineered to mature very fast. After all, we know the Jem'Hadar are genetically engineed to grow from birth to adulthood in 3 days, maybe Vorta are designed similarly.

Loved the Kira and Dukat scene where she threw the teacup at him. Especially well done by the actors involved.

A good character growth ep. Some nice background on Kira that fits nicely with what we've seen of her.

The writers don't seem to trust us much, as we again get very explicit exposition - Weyoun (beautifully done) lets us know there's innuendo in that scene between Sisko and Dukat . . . Odo tells us Kira is trying to run from death once again, using the old war record as an excuse . . . Kira tells us she was feeling guilty about missing her father's death and so she couldn't miss Ghemor's . . .

Good God. And were the characters also being compared to any characters in Les Miserable we should know about?

Sometimes poisoning works, sometimes it doesn't. We see various types in this ep. How clever is Dukat, poisoning Kira's relationship with Ghemor, with that old war record? He knows our girl. Or does he? It almost works, but ultimately, like Weyoun, she swallows, and she can tell it's toxic, but it doesn't kill her. Her constitution is stronger than that.

What could have been a truly excellent ep is made less with dumbing down, but a good outing overall.

Good episode but...

...I couldn’t really get THAT into it because I just don’t buy that Ghemor and Kira are as close as father and daughter; it’s pretty ridiculous tbh.

The whole sharing of Cardassian secrets thing was a stretch too; apparently these secrets can only be shared verbally, face-to-face while experiencing severe mortal pain. Ghemor is such a drama queen.

General Hospital a la DS9

This was a terrible episode IMO. It was predictable cliché-ridden dialogue. Also, a bit unbelievable that Kira and Ghemor could feel that close to one another, like father and daughter, after all they don't really know each other that well.

Predictability - I knew Ghemor was going to say he was dying before he said it. I think it was just his demeanor and they way he was talking to Kira but I said, out loud, "I'm dying" just before Ghemor said it. Also, when Ghemor offered Kira the Cardassian secrets and because this is DS9, I knew Kira would at first decline. This is melodrama, poorly built conflict, or conflict arising for no good reason. Of course Kira would want to hear Cardassian State secrets! But no, it's a soap opera so she's got to say 'no' until someone (Sisko) talks her into it. Why wouldn't she want to hear these secrets? She still has lots of resentment towards Cardassians and the Cardassians are more of a threat now than ever. Silly.

I will say that I didn't see it coming that Kira would become angry at Ghemor during the episode, but I knew she'd go back and sit by his bed, predictable.

After Ghemor died Kira was talking to Bashir and uttered 3 cliché's with 60 seconds. One was "he didn't even know I was there." Of course Bashir had to say, "yes he did, blah blah blah". I forgot the other two statements but they were back to back to back. This kind of writing doesn't have weight, it's hackneyed, been done to death. Oh well.

An aspect of the episode that I thought wasn't good or bad was Kira deciding to allow Dukat's obvious attempt at separating her from Ghemor to work temporarily. I mean, it's obvious what Dukat is doing; he gives Kira a juicy piece of info about Ghemor during the war, hoping she'll get angry and reject Ghemor, leaving him defenseless. At this stage of the game Kira must have known that Ghemor participated in violence during the war and by now she either must have decided to forgive Ghemor or not. This is a situation where I'm trying to climb into Kira's mind, which is impossible, but I still thought it odd that Kira would allow Dukat to play her.

On a positive note Nana Visitor, the actor playing Ghemor, and Alaimo's acting were great!

1 star for production value and some good acting.

@ Lew Stone
*chuckles* You are actually hate watching, aren't you?
"At this stage of the game Kira must have known that Ghemor participated in violence during the war and by now she either must have decided to forgive Ghemor or not."
In general you seem to overlook a lot. They clearly indicate at the beginning that they stayed in contact and are close. I could go more into it but I'm a little pressed for time. What you didn't get apparently is that she let Dukat manipulate her because she didn't want to sit there and witness the death of somebody she at least had deep emotional connection with. She didn't want to see him die because of the traumatic experience with her parents.
But I agree with you that it was really good acting. :)

The episode moved me quite a bit. I could relate to it on a personal level, though. Melodrama or not.

"The feminists who seem so strident from today's perspective were in a battle for their lives, "

Curious. It's the younger generation that seems now most strident to me.

I wasn't expecting Ghemor to come back, and yet DS9 is exactly the kind of series in which he would. I'm grateful for that -- I loved the unlikely "found family" dynamic they built up over their one appearance together, and I'm glad to see it withstand Dukat's meddling here.

Weyoun is kind of fantastic, isn't he? You really get the impression that he's constantly holding himself back from fits of manic giggling.

(Also, Kira smashing her cup on Dukat's face? Beautiful scene. I need more of that in my life.)

It often feels that when the DS9 writers ran out of ideas, they'd take a coin and flip it. Heads, they'd write a "let's torture Miles O'Brien" story. Tails, they'd write another Kira-flashback episode.

And this time, the coin came up tails.

There's some good things in this episode. Kira's scene with Dukat is well done, and while I'm not that keen on Weyoun as a character, he does some excellent sniping in his conversations with Sisko and Ducat. And Kira's monologue at the end about Ghemor's last few minutes is both heartfelt and (having sat with people in similar situations) sadly all too realistic.

And the foster-father setup between Kira and Ghemor makes some sense, even if after their original meeting (two in-universe years earlier) there's no indication that they'd had any further direct interactions or communications, but instead just monitored media and security reports.

But did we really need to tie all of this into another Kira flashback? One that's about as subtle as a horde of drunken Klingon warriors in a china shop? And did we really need Dukat to throw in his little bombshell and thereby push Kira back into her original "revolutionary" persona?

Overall, this is one episode which has many great parts, but for me, the sum isn't quite what it should be.

Some people have commented on how Weyoun and Dukat threaten the station with a (large) Jem'Hadar battlecruiser. It seems ridiculous to some people.

It's true that they wouldn't stand a chance. But actually, Dukat, Weyoun, and the audience don't know that. Until "Call to Arms", we all still think Federation shields are useless against Dominion weapons. DS9 has no ablative armour. Even with armour, the Defiant could barely hold off against a few (small) Jem'Hadar attack ships ("The Search"). While the station is armed to the teeth, if its shields were ineffective, its civilians (or even Ops) would be in real danger from a Jem'Hadar ship of that firepower. It's a real threat. Foolhardy perhaps. But threatening.

A good drama, but is it science fiction? Wouldn’t the plot play out the same set in medieval france or on a ranch outside of Dallas?

A sequel to the excellent "Second Skin", "Ties of Blood and Water" watches as Tekeny Ghemor visits Kira at DS9. He's a Cardassian who helped the Bajorans resist Occupation, and as he has a disease and is about to die, wishes to live out his final days with Kira, a woman whom he views with fatherly affection.

This episode has three little plot-lines. In one, Sisko, Dukat and Weyoun wander about the station, talking politics and insulting one another with great skill. The dialogue here is simply wonderful, particularly Dukat's insults ("I prefer the title Gul. So much more hands-on than Legate. And less pretentious than the other alternatives: President, Emperor, First Minister, Emissary.")

The episode's second plot-line watches as Kira bonds with Tekeny Ghemor, learns that he killed Bajorans, grows to despise him, and then grows to forgive him. Though a bit slow in places, it's a very good arc, culminating with yet another moment in which Kira is asked to "soften" and "re-evaluate" her hatred of Cardassians.

The episode's least successful arc involves a series of flashbacks. Here we watch as a young Kira fights in the Resistance, kills Cardassians and loses friends and family. Several heavy-handed scenes then echo the death of Kira's father, which Kira missed due to her hatred of Carassians, with the death of Tekeny Ghemor, which Kira is present for because of her newfound love of Ghemor. DS9 often gets too cute with its narrative parallels, too in love with neat screenplay structures, and that's arguably the case here as well.

Still, this worthy episode with several strong emotional scenes. It also works well as a kind of thematic sequel to "The Darkness and the Light". Incidentally, Dukat gets a Dominion battle cruiser in this episode; he's goes from a old space freighter to a Bird of Prey to a giant battle cruiser over the course of just two seasons. Not bad.

Not bad, but it seemed like Kira had to be unusually dense to believe her surrogate father didn't have some baggage related to the Bajor occupation and that he wouldn't have shared it.

Ghemor's own real daughter was a deep undercover agent on Bajor, and he was fully aware of this. That alone made him complicit to some degree.


Great Weyoun, Sisko and Dukat stuff. I had the same reaction that The Sisko and Dukat had to Weyoun drinking the poisoned liquor!


I mildly wonder if Dukat would have sold out to the Dominion if he had heard the chilling "Cardassia is dead, dead, dead" speech the Founder have Garak.

Probably, because he's so arrogant and would believe he could control them.

I also absolutely love that scene when, weyoun just suddenly out of nowhere drinks the poison. "are you insane!?" It's so hilarious and unexpected.

The poison scene is perfectly done. Avery Brooks' direction throughout this episode is exquisite.

I must wonder if any of the writers ever had to (or felt that they had the privilege to) attend a parent's sick-bed or death-bed, complete with morphine button.

Oh my God…
As a young man I’d come school and mom would have the TV turned to soap operas while she went around the house doing things. I disliked them then, and still dislike them now.

That’s exactly what the final third of this Nana Visitor driven self-indulgent goo was all about. She’s a fine actor, really, we got it. But can ya spread it a little?

Everything else was so much more eloquently stated by an earlier posting by: Lew Stone -Tue October 1, 2019, he says all most word for word exactly what I thought of this episode much better than I ever could, and his previous post is worth the read….