The Mandalorian

"Chapter 16: The Rescue"

4 stars

Air date: 12/18/2020
Written by Jon Favreau
Directed by Peyton Reed

Review by Jamahl Epsicokhan

Well, that was pretty awesome.

"The Rescue" completes an arc of The Mandalorian so definitively and satisfyingly that it could simultaneously serve as a series finale and a backdoor pilot for multiple spinoff series. It may do the second of those things, but since it won't be doing the first, that means a third season of this series will have to include a fair amount of reinvention by giving Din Djarin a new purpose.

Season two of The Mandalorian slowly but surely charted the course of this series from a frontier space western to the driving force behind the future of the entire Star Wars franchise. Disney is going all-in on Star Wars streaming shows on Disney+ (with the announcement of nearly a dozen Star Wars streaming projects in the coming years), and The Mandalorian this season has steadily been building a launchpad for several of those projects. (A great post-credits tag at the end of this episode shows Boba Fett and Fennec Shand storming the palace formerly known as Jabba's, shooting all the guards and its recognizable girth-expanded owner, then Boba sitting in the boss' chair, with a title card promising us The Book of Boba Fett in December 2021.)

But I'm getting ahead of myself, because "The Rescue" first ties up many of the pieces that have been set up for us this season (while leaving open a number of others), and does so in a genuinely thrilling and suspenseful action-packed manner.

Like every episode in this series, the storytelling is lean, simple, straightforward, and efficient: We have a daring plan to get onto Gideon's ship, and our heroes must get to the bridge and take it over while Djarin must get to the brig to rescue Grogu. Mando first recruits the help of Mandalorians Bo-Katan Kryze (Katee Sackhoff) and Koska Reeves (Mercedes Varnado). Along with Cara Dune (Gina Carano) and Boba Fett (Temuera Morrison), we have a Dirty Half-Dozen with a righteous cause.

There are complications, of course. Yes, taking out a battalion of stormtroopers is as all-too-easy as usual. (These guys are underskilled and underequipped; my wife asked what good their armor is if it doesn't stop them from getting shot. The answer, of course, is that they're stormtroopers; their purpose is to be mowed down.) But Gideon has the dark troopers, who are kind of like ultra-advanced, superior ED-209s: implacable, evil-looking, and very strong and well armored. Mando goes up against one of them and his hands very full. And Gideon has dozens of them. (Even flushing them all into space doesn't stop them, as they use their thrusters to simply reboard the ship.)

We have a showdown between Gideon, with the Darksaber, and Mando, with his beskar staff. Mando wins, but in a way that adds a new wrinkle to things and works as Gideon's unintended Plan B: Mando has defeated the man who wielded the Darksaber — but that's exactly what Bo-Katan had come here to do. With Mando having defeated Gideon, Bo-Katan now has to defeat Mando in order to claim the Darksaber for herself in her mission to retake Mandalore. (That's not dealt with here, but is clearly grist for season three.)

I was surprised how much suspense this episode was actually able to build. Although logic dictates the title character can't die, we now have a larger group of people beyond the title character to worry about. Ultimately, everyone ends up on the bridge trapped as the dark troopers close in. The dark troopers' near-indestructibility and the way they're prepared to keep pounding the door with their steel fists until it finally caves in had me wondering just how our heroes were going to escape their inescapable box.

Answer: Grogu's call is answered with the arrival of a lone X-wing fighter, and a black-robed Jedi wielding a green lightsaber, who slices through the dark troopers in a badass force-of-nature sequence reminiscent of Vader's unstoppable assault at the end of Rogue One. It reminds you just what the Jedi are capable of when they want something. Given the timeframe, this Jedi could only logically and sensibly be Luke Skywalker, but the willingness of the writers to Go There allow the dots to be connected and explicitly bridge the original trilogy to this show, which will presumably bridge it to the sequel trilogy.

The CGI version of Luke — Mark Hamill's young face plastered onto an apparent stand-in's body — is excessively wooden and unemotional (if it were a real performance, I would call it a bad one that would be right at home in the prequel trilogy), but the illusion is good enough to sell the idea here and satisfyingly deliver the fan service. (And, hey, look: R2!) More importantly, this fulfills Mando's mission to find a Jedi who can adopt Grogu.

That's right — Baby Yoda is going away with Luke. Kudos to the writers for not drawing this arc out any longer and following the story to its logical conclusion. You'd have to have a heart of stone not to get the feels for Djarin removing his helmet to let Grogu see his face for the first time, in order to say goodbye.

So in this episode, they set up the next chapter in the Darksaber saga, rescue Grogu, defeat Moff Gideon (who remains alive and available for season three), set up Boba and Fennec for their reign on Tatooine, and say goodbye to Grogu by handing him off to the most central figure in the history of Star Wars. And they do all the fun sci-fi action this show usually does. That's a lot of stuff, all in 45 minutes.

The Mandalorian started as one man on the frontier, doing obscure western things. That quickly expanded this season. With the exception of perhaps "The Passenger," very little plot this season went to waste and most of it came together in this episode.

When The Mandalorian premiered I wasn't sure if it could escape the feeling of "it's just TV" while playing second fiddle to whatever the film franchise was doing. Now I see that not only can this production stand up to the standards of feature films, but the scope of its storytelling can deliver that sense of epic space opera as well. And with more hours. A real coup would be if this series could go back to doing its own thing on its own terms next season, now that it has paved the way for all the things that are coming in the Extended Disney+ Universe. As fun as this show can be doing big Star Wars stuff, it still has the ability to do its own thing next season — maybe even more so, if that's what it wants to do.

Previous episode: Chapter 15: The Believer

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175 comments on this post

CaptainMercer
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 3:12am (UTC -6)
THERE IS A POST CREDITS SCENE
Fish
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 4:01am (UTC -6)
Woah.

That was not at all what I expected.

Damn. And that stinger.
AMA
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 4:20am (UTC -6)
At the risk of opening a Pandora's box, I wish the newest era of Star Trek shows was anywhere near as satisfying as this one series from the Star Wars universe. The Mandalorian can be a bit rote at times, but it has certainly provided multiple awe-inspiring episodes, this one included. Wow. Love this series.
Burke
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 5:39am (UTC -6)
@AMA

Disney just nailed it with the Mandalorian. Heck, it even made me curious to check out the new Marvel shows, even though I don't really care about superhero movies.

But yeah, while new Trek fails time after time (for me), at least we have some good options. Mandalorian may be over for now, but season 5 of The Expanse just dropped on Prime Video.
John
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 7:23am (UTC -6)
I can see the reaction now.

A lot of fans - Hell yeah, that hallways scene was better than all three sequels combined! And OK, the CGI was a bit dodgy but we can let that slide.

Some fans - God dammit, why must they continue to bring in old characters instead of letting this show stand free of all that baggage?

Other fans - How DARE they split apart Mando and Grogu?!! I'm canceling my Disney+ subscription and burning all my Star Wars stuff. Also, I though Spock was permanently dead after Star Trek II and all those Marvel heroes were coming back after Infinity War.
Kyle A
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 8:39am (UTC -6)
Wow,

These guys really know what they are doing. And if this is a sign of how Disney now understands what the fandom wants, then we are in for the golden age of Star Wars.

And I also agree with the others, too bad the modern Star Treks can't follow these footsteps.

And when the X-wing arrived, I felt like a little kid again.
Mal
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 9:41am (UTC -6)
omg. i am speechless.

more than i could ever hope for.

5 stars (out of 4).

may the force be with you.
Dave in MN
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 11:13am (UTC -6)
I'm not the huge Star Wars fan, but that shocking reveal even got to me. I think my mouth hung open for the last three minutes. Wow!

The only gripe I have is Gudeon should have activated the Dark Troopers the second their ship appeared (or just blew it up with his ship's weapons).

Other than that, this was perfect escapism. I wasn't critiquing, I was swept away by the narrative.

This is ⭐⭐⭐⭐without a doubt. Best Star Wars since the original trilogy!
Nick
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 12:06pm (UTC -6)
Luke wrecking house at the end was everything I'd hoped for since picking up 'Heir to the Empire' at 10 years old. People may say he overshadows everything, but he's Luke Skywalker---how can he not? They went with CGI instead of a recast, which means Luke won't be back or at least verrrry rarely.

That's good for the show, but sad for Skywalker fans. If only F & F could just call do-over on the last trilogy and do their own thing post-Jedi with the entire galaxy a clean slate across multiple shows and movies. Imagine Luke having a convo with Ahsoka? Imagine Luke not meeting such a depressing end as decades in exile followed by a Force hologram death?

A guy can dream. But, onto Mandalore and whatever Boba is up to.
Booming
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 12:23pm (UTC -6)
I guess nobody is ever really gone... thanks deep fake.

It is a good action show, nothing special plotwise but well made.
The Expanse is a better as show on almost ever level, though. Admittedly, the Mandalorian has the superior cast. Fake and real ones...

I shiver thinking what the Jedi scene will mean for future shows. Probably unavoidable.
Burke
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 2:39pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

I see them as two different types of show. The Expanse is what Discovery wishes it was. Mandalorian is just a blast, fun like the original trilogy was.
Booming
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 2:58pm (UTC -6)
@Burke

Absolutely, it is an enjoyable show and how cute is baby yoda. I sadly find the action scenes a little lacking because enemies always die by the hundreds but our heroes always survive. In the original trilogy when action happened then some people actually died.
Latex Zebra
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 3:06pm (UTC -6)
That was an amazing end to a really good second season. Agree that story wise it's not really breaking any new ground but it just moves along, very little fat on any episode and they are a breeze to watch.
That end credits scene was a doozy as well.
Latex Zebra
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 3:12pm (UTC -6)
Oh and Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni, they get Star Wars. Disney, give them whatever they want. They need to be helming this ship from now on.
Yanks
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 4:29pm (UTC -6)
Well, this episode was a little disappointing and awesome at the same time.

I COMPLETLY had the timeline all fraked up (had to throw that in there for Katee :-) ) I thought we were after 'The Rise of Skywalker'. HAHA... then a young Luke shows up. Seriously, how good was that deep fake?!? I was impressed.

Other than the dangerous approach into Giddeon's ship, did anyone ever think our "girls" were in any danger? Good lord, how many Storm Troopers can get killed in one episode without anyone shooting them getting at least grazed? I know Storm Troopers have a history of being stupid and horrible shots, but man. Taking the ship was too easy IMO.

I expected Boba to handle some of those spaced Dark Troopers. I was disappointed he wasn't more involved in this episode.

I wish Boba would have planted Mercedes on her ass. What was all that attitude about?

Now, that all aside, I wasn't expecting Grogu to get rescued. I thought the valiant attempt was going to be made and they would have failed, giving us something to look forward to next season. Now I don't know what direction they are going. Are we going to see them take back Mandalor?

The Moff/Mando fight was pretty darn good. Dark saber against Mando's armor and staff was pretty intense. The Mando/Dark Trooper fight was also awesome.

I knew when the X-Wing showed up it was a Jedi, but I had no idea it was going to be Luke!! Love how he mowed down the Dark Troopers... that was pretty kick ass. Love Moff's facial expression when he figured out it was a Jedi.

REALLY sad to see Grogu go here, I mean really... certainly glad he's with Luke for training. A sad goodbye for all us Mando fans for sure.

One loose hanging thread.... doe Mando still possess the Dark Saber? After Moff told Mando how Bo-Katan had to win it in battle, they just kind of dropped it.

This series has been just awesome. Many, many high points. Only one episode this season did I grade low (Yoda speak there :-) ) ... pretty impressive. I'm not going to give this one 4 stars, but 'The Jedi' was 30 minutes of the best TV/Star Wars I've seen in 30+ years.

Discovery needs more character-growth type episodes like the recent Georgiou 2-parter to come close to the levels this little series has achieved. And to think Mando's episodes on average are only about 30 minutes each.

I'm only going 3 stars here because of the seemingly effortless target practice it took to take Gideon's ship.

I hope 'The Mandalorian' can keep it up now that "the kid" is not in the picture anymore.

I would have no issue going back and binging this entire series over the weekend.

Nice to see Boba Fett is getting his own series.

Glad Cara Dune is getting hers too.

The bar has been set high, it's not going to be easy to match 'The Mandalorian'.
Dave in MN
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 5:00pm (UTC -6)
@ Yanks

I never even really considered the gender of the characters until you mentioned "our girls".

It's amazing how good writing and casting can erase pre-conceived notions as to "the why" of how a story is being told.

I have to echo everyone else's lament that Trek (unlike Filoni and Favrea) can't figure out how to honor what came before and build on it.

There are simply too many cooks in the kitchen over at CBS and, as long as this dozens-of-producers paradigm remains, they'll be beholden to mystery boxes, soapboxing and subverting/remaking the things that made Trek great (since they don't understand how to use these tropes).

I'd say it's too bad Seth MacFarlane didn't get control of Trek back in the day, but I like The Orville too much to wish it never existed.
Mark
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 5:01pm (UTC -6)
My one word review: Unbelievable!
Yanks
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 5:20pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN

"@ Yanks

I never even really considered the gender of the characters until you mentioned "our girls"."

Haha, it dawned on me when Boba Fett took off and I saw Mando lurking behind.
Dave in MN
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 5:27pm (UTC -6)
@ Yanks

Kind of amazing we've gone a whole season (and a couple hundred comments) without even one gripe about social justice pandering.

If that doesn't speak to the quality of this show, nothing does.
Dave in MN
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 5:30pm (UTC -6)
Also, I forget that Favreau co-created The Orville and directed the first episode.

I think he deserves a lot of credit!
Andrew
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 6:51pm (UTC -6)
Wow! Such an intense ending, though it raises some important questions.

Ahsoka seemed to suggest that Grogu could turn to the dark side and it would be better if her were not trained. "There is much fear in him" similar to Yoda's comment about Anakin in Phantom Menace, and she says it's better if Grogu's abilities waned over time. But Luke takes Grogu without hesitation, and I wonder if just means Grogu should have been with Luke all along, or if Luke is making an error by deciding to train Grogu.

Also, the sequel trilogy seems to say that Luke's trainees were killed by Kylo Ren, so Grogu going with Luke is actually not a good sign. Does this mean Grogu is off the show? Or will he come back somehow? I feel like Disney has made so much money off of Baby Yoda dolls, that's it's hard for me to believe that Grogu is off the show.

Going into the season 2 finale, considering Ahsoka's statements and Grogu's absence from the sequel trilogy, I thought they were setting it up to have Grogu not be trained, and instead be raised as a Mandalorian, just as the main character was rescued as a child and raised to follow "the way." Also, this season they've gone out of their way to have Grogu not be completely good, such as with egg eating, cookie stealing, force choking etc., so if he just goes on his merry way and becomes a Jedi, that seems too easy.

Very cool episode though. When that X-wing flew in, I knew things were about to get real. Fan service at its best. People just love seeing R2-D2 beep, even though it's unclear whether R2-D2 had an prior connection to Grogu.

When the dark troopers were blown out into space with the push of a button I said out loud "that's convenient" so I was glad when they came back to raise the stakes. Though I agree, why doesn't the empire rely on them more, instead of stormtroopers who can't hit anything or the incompetent droid army of the prequels.

Like others, I wish Boba Fett had more to do, but apparently he is getting his own show??? Seems odd to have two shows running simultaneously that both involve Mandalorian bounty hunters, but what do I know? I worry Disney will react to the success and acclaim of The Mandalorian by churning out a ton of shows that are of lower quality.

But this episode was so enchanting. Can't wait until Season 3. Hope to see more of "Kara Thrace" Bo Katan.
Kevin
Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 11:03pm (UTC -6)
Was that Like Skywalker ?
Marvin
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 12:04am (UTC -6)
Overall good.

But if you had an eye for detail, you were not surprised it was Luke because you could see the black mechanical hand waving the light saber! And the green saber to boot.
But yea I agree with others that all of our heroes are pretty much invincible. That however is made up by extraordinary fidelity to Star Wars cannon, atmosphere, music, “feel”. Good character development and many characters pull at your heart. Guest stars are excellent with Bill Barr, Tim olyphant, that blue alien, Rosario Dawson, Titus (criminally underused in that ep). Sure I’m missing someone.
Booming
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:14am (UTC -6)
@Kevin
Yes that was Like Skywalker. The deep fake brother of Luke Skywalker.

I find it a little disappointing that they are amping up the fan service. Boba Fett is back, the room from Jabba the Hut is back, Luke is back, R2D2 is back. I get why they do it. It's basically the same scene we had with Darth Vader slicing up 50 people at the end of one of the newer movies. So guys can shout:"Fuck yeah!! Totally awesome, bro!"

So the new republic is the one that gets destroyed by the planet cannon. The Mandalorian is a prequel to the new trilogy. I guess so they can bring back all the deep fakes. No one is ever really gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ems6XK6T7U&ab_channel=robyrani
Henson
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 8:10am (UTC -6)
@Booming

Are you sure it wasn't Luuke?
Booming
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 8:24am (UTC -6)
Whatever his name, he is living in the Uncanny valley.
Mal
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 10:51am (UTC -6)
An invincible set of heroes. Never any tension. Not a single moment when the heroes seem to be in any danger. Completely ineffectual enemy soldiers who may as well not be in the scenes when they are dispatched with zero difficulty.

Even worse, the buildup of Gideon as a formidable schemer always one stop ahead of the good guys falls flat as he is easily dispatched by Mando with little difficulty. He’ll, Mando had a harder time with a single dark trooper than he did with Gideon. Gideon, who got the drop on Mando and used that moment to swing his lightsaber at Mando’s in Hindi me armor plates rather than one of the many many gaps in his armor where he could’ve killed him easily.

I found the season frustrating as a thinly-veiled vehicle for setting up other Disney series cash-ins, but worse than that, there was action without tension. At no point this entire season did it ever feel like Mando was in danger, except when he was locked in that ship’s hold with the water filling up. Other than that, uninteresting action scenes, with nothing as fun to watch as the Jawa Sandcrawler scene from the first season.

The first season was a project that Favreau and others got an apprehensive green light to make, letting it likely be closer to what the showrunners wanted to do with it. Then it was wildly successful, and Disney made no attempt to hide its very obvious meddling.

No, seeing Luke show up isn’t enough to trick my nostalgia lizard brain into thinking it was good as it apparently has so many.
Dave in MN
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 11:08am (UTC -6)
@ Mal

Is it nostalgia to write an ending that feels like a deletedc arc from the original trilogy?

Everything about the closing few minutes struck me as genuine real filmmaking with something universal to say about the human condition and the capacity for goodness. I found it incredibly effective.
Mal
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 11:23am (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN, I don't who that is who used my name to comment at 10:51am (UTC -6), but it isn't me.

I love @Jammer's site, but this is one of those well-understood drawbacks to the open format. Believe it or not, in the decade-plus that comments have been open here, only one other time has anyone used my name. So I'm not complaining.

Just asking nicely for that handsome fellow (with very good taste in screen names ;) to please select a different one. I would consider it a kindness.

https://youtu.be/YArfb1gCcBg

FWIW @Dave in MN, I agree with you completely.
Dave in MN
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:33pm (UTC -6)
@ Mal

OK, that explains things! (That reaction seemed out of character for you.)
Mal
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:35pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN

You know me too well LOL!
Tom
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 5:35pm (UTC -6)
I don't know how anyone can say this episode had no tension. Mando was always portrayed as a powerful warrior and yet the dark troopers posed a threat we hadn't seen yet. I found their threat extremely effective. It doesn't matter that no one died. As I recall, quite a few characters died in the sequel movies, and yet the battles came across as uninvolving video game sequences, with a lot of things flying around.
4Q2
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 6:31pm (UTC -6)
@ Dave in MN


"I have to echo everyone else's lament that Trek (unlike Filoni and Favreau) can't figure out how to honor what came before and build on it."


1000x THIS.
I remember thinking "I never ever thought I'd despise a Trek show." I remember also thinking "I never ever thought I'd despise a SW flick." (While there is more than one guilty example, this is primarily directed at TROS)

Thank fuckin CHRIST for Filoni and Favreau. Nailing it with every round in the chamber.
Nique Dunk
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 7:48pm (UTC -6)
On the other Mal's side for this episode, and I have similar thoughts for the last 3 episodes in total. How many extended fight scenes can I watch knowing ahead of time that no scary enemy can get past the hero's armor and that he and his chums will never get hurt, or pretend to get hurt and get up and take on a figging army again and destroy them?

Not many.

After the hundred storm troopers of the most incomptent kind tried to take Mando and chums out for 15 minutes of senseless shooting, and missing from close range, and another episode following that of obviously predictable fights, I finally found myself fast forwarding through some of the fights in the ship in this finale Because what apparently counts in this show's last few episodes is how they end. Those have been the only worthy moments.

The finale starts with a useless, insult-and-attack bonanza featuring Mando's sidekicks before joining him, (OMG who knew, sigh) and continued with yet another round ef endless fights in a ship (does it even matter where)

The last fight is dross mimicked as climax, how many times should Moff Gideon strike Mando with his "luminous and most powerful sword" before Mando even slows down a bit? Sorry Moffy, never enough. Mando topples him like he had never even been tickled.

Thankfully the last 5 minutes distracted from that monotony. Nice "WOW" trick with Luke, but that is all. It can't magically "poof" the the rest of the ordinary episode away.

I can't be more disappointed. I loved the first 5 episodes but the season fizzled out like balloon.
Austin
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 12:00am (UTC -6)
@Yanks
“I wish Boba would have planted Mercedes on her ass. What was all that attitude about?”

So once Boba began speaking, she knew he was a clone, albeit not in the same vein as the rest of the clone army. And since Jango was not technically a true Mandalorian, he was apparently held in pretty low regard by Mandalorians, and I assume his clones would be regarded as even poorer copies of a pretender.

I really enjoyed this episode. And yes, storm troopers did what storm troopers do, namely get shot in the face and scream, but that’s literally been all of Star Wars. You can’t blame them for staying true to form. I give this 4/4 stars, but I do feel bringing in Luke was maybe a mistake. I enjoyed this taking place outside of the Skywalker saga, and to have him brought in as Jedi Ex Machina seems like a genie you can’t put back in the bottle. But I can’t say this enough: just masterful. Respecting all the source material, representation in a way that doesn’t beat you over the head, great characters... heroes, anti-heroes, villains.
dave
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 2:57am (UTC -6)
DISNEY needs to give Jon Favreau a blank check and ask him to take over the head of their Star Wars TV and Movie division and fill in the amount he wants to get paid. He has proven himself and has brought Star Wars back from a very muddy spot, Ill never meet the man but I want to thank him for giving us back our Star Wars. After a difficult two decades since the Prequel Trilogy started I feel like I can connect with Star Wars again. Its really is cool.

Season 2 of Mando is masterful stuff. I don't care about the nitpicks. Although the amount of storm troopers they wiped out with ease made the taking of the ship not as high stakes as it should have been. I know, that is how storm troopers are but they should have cut the numbers down and not made it so flagrant.

Their casting of women was exceptional and for the most part gender wasn't even noticed which makes it even more masterful . Everyone was on equal footing and there was never any pandering to either make the men incompetent to the women or for the women to seem inferior.

Hell of a post credits scene. I almost got up and left the room as its usually just the music and the artwork ,and this surprises me. Massive fan service!
dave
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 3:00am (UTC -6)
@austin

It would be really hard to keep a Luke appearance out of this series. He is alive in this time frame and rebuilding the order and Mando is carrying someone from the same species as Yoda. I can understand some people thinking they should have kept him out, but I don't see how you could considering what we know in canon. It would get glaring at some point as to "where the F is Luke to help them with something"
Mark
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 1:52pm (UTC -6)
@dave "DISNEY needs to give Jon Favreau a blank check and ask him to take over the head of their Star Wars TV and Movie division and fill in the amount he wants to get paid. He has proven himself and has brought Star Wars back from a very muddy spot, Ill never meet the man but I want to thank him for giving us back our Star Wars. After a difficult two decades since the Prequel Trilogy started I feel like I can connect with Star Wars again. Its really is cool."

This is spot on and I agree 100%. The recent movies were less than desirable to me other than the last half of Rouge 1. The Mandalorian has given me faith again in Star Wars and let's hope it continues.
Pebbles Dod
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 6:03pm (UTC -6)
Squarely in the camp of the few let down by the ending. For me personally, it’s also why I could never get into the Star Wars franchise as much as several of my friends did. Too much laser use, too many fights with white-armored and black-armored army always getting knocked by a hero named Luke, Han Solo, Rei or another, or in this case, the Mandalorian. Yet, I really thought it would be different with this series because it started out so well. The first season had a couple of intriguing characters, and this season was promising early. Somewhere along the season, for me once the fifth episode ended, it slipped away and turned into the same ole battles and fights, with hardly any plot. I second the commenter above who saw no tension. I didn't either late in the season. Where is the tension when each pocket of fighting yields the expected ones as winners no matter how long those scenes drag, and boy they drag.
Matt
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 6:13pm (UTC -6)
@Pebbles Dod
"Where is the tension when each pocket of fighting yields the expected ones as winners no matter how long those scenes drag, and boy they drag. "

So in the episode "The Tragedy", you expected the bad guys to take off with the baby? Because that's what they were fighting for, which means they were the winners.
Pebbles Dod
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 7:25pm (UTC -6)
Something was bound to go wrong since there was still an episode left. But even if I did not, I completely expected the hundreds of storm troopers in that episode to take hundreds of shots and miss their targets hundreds of times from a few feet (eyeroll) and then jump out in front of their enemies so they can get zapped, and watch that pattern repeated over and over again for 20 minutes in the middle of the episode. Yayyy!
Mal01
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 8:47pm (UTC -6)
Probably was the same Mal in the past as me. Been visiting Jammer's site for about ten years, since I read along eps as I did a BSG watchthrough. Mostly lurk and very rarely comment.

Glad many enjoyed this. Someone above described it as a masterpiece, but that can only conceivably be possible in my mind if someone has been thirsty for the post-RotJ Star Wars that they conceived in their heads, or was formed from SW books in the 90s. Same crowd that was mad that the interesting turn Luke took in TLJ (a movie I think is trash, but I actually quite like the Luke take) simply because it didn't fit expectations.

I mean...this season had an ep with a character from Clone Wars. Then two eps later, had Ahsoka--also from Clone Wars. The ep immediately following that had Boba Fett in it. Then the final ep has the crescendo of fanservice character inserts in the form of a badass Luke Skywalker meant to mirror the Darth Vader fanservice scene at the end of Rogue One.

I think if the fight choreo was more interesting I'd potentially have found this season more entertaining, but TV fight scenes these days just feels like filler between plot beats--almost obligatory. My favorite ep of the series is still the ep from the first season on the prison ship, because it treated Mando like the invincible, scary predator that he is and showed him to us from the perspective of a bunch of normies.

I realize I'm in the minority here, but The Mandalorian worked best for me when I thought it was part of a small, contained story making the rest of the galaxy feel larger and more full, and would ultimately be totally inconsequential to the stories from the movies and other material. For it to tie in so blatantly to the larger plot--and for the ineffectual villain (Giancarlo Esposito ended up being totally wasted in the role) to outright look at the camera and say that what he's done will help bring the rise of the First Order--undermined the sense of larger scale for me.

As a result, it feels once again like Star Wars is such a tiny world...and that there really just are no new ideas for what to do with it.
Marvin
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 9:31pm (UTC -6)
@Mal01

I think your point about how season 1 took small stories set in the Star Wars universe as better and preferable is well taken. Now that season 2 has tied in both the original trilogy, Clone Wars series, and linked to the sequel trilogy, Mando is now becoming a pivotal character to the entire Star Wars timeline. Or at least that is the path I’m predicting. This places too much pressure on the long term plot now (prediction), when this series best worked on simple plots done right with exquisite detail and canon fidelity. A build to a more “galactic” plot I think raises the risk of trying for too much.

That being said, it is surprising that one of the most popular if not the most popular characters has left, and any return of baby Yoda would have to be bend over backward writing into the plot. Again, long term serial storytelling is not this series forte; the episodic nature is the key. I think more innovation in episodic storytelling a la ST TNG or original Star Trek is the best path forward.
neko
Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 8:39am (UTC -6)
I am surprised the CGI face morphing has not become indistinguishable from real face yet, four years after Rogue One. But it will, it will. I predict eventually there will be never ending series of Star Wars shows involving original characters from all the movies indistinguishable from real actors. Maybe we'll all watch them in our retirement homes. If the Star Wars fans are too old and it isn't worth doing by the time it becomes possible, may be it will happen with Harry Potter.
Albert Walding
Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 10:37am (UTC -6)
While enough has already been said about how ridiculously easy it has become to blast your way past stormtroopers (Mando had more problems with a bunch of Jawas in season 1) I would like to draw attention to a little detail that hasn’t been mentioned yet: at one point Cara and Fennec are caught of guard on a catwalk when six stormtrooper come up from behind and could shoot them in the back. But what do they do instead? Shout „Freeze! Drop your weapons.“ They might have wanted to add „You are under arrest for crimes against the empire“ but of course then they get killed.
The important point here is that despite being on the receiving end of a one-sided slaughters the stormtroopers are still trying to take prisoners. The other side does not, the entire bridge crew gets slaughtered. Yes, they all die with weapons in their hands, but Bo Katan does not even try to take a prisoner to ask where Gideon is. Who are good guys/girls here? In a way this reaffirms the theme from last episode – if it weren’t for that one officer telling us that the Empire is really evil it would be hard to spot the difference.
Marvin
Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 11:02am (UTC -6)
@Albert Walding

Ahh, but isn't it interesting that at the very beginning of this episode that the Imperial shuttle pilot, the one that shot his co-pilot, stated that millions of people died on the Death Star(s), and that it was correct, for lack of a better word, for the terrorists to die on Alderaan? Someone can maybe recheck this scene and verbiage, but I recall this Imperial thinking the Empire was righteous, which could extend to many Imperials' thinking of their acts against the Rebellion.
Leif
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 5:55pm (UTC -6)
Why are people saying the new Star treks arent as good as this? People don't think Discovery is good..?? Picard I get why...But what is it about Mandalorian people think is better than Trek like Discovery?
Mark
Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 6:44pm (UTC -6)
@Leif: 'Why are people saying the new Star treks arent as good as this? People don't think Discovery is good..?? '

To be blunt, people just are not happy with anything when it comes to new Star Trek. Instead of just not watching they watch then complain about how horrible it is, yet continue to watch and continue to complain. I just don't understand it myself and shows evolve and always will. Enjoy it or don't watch. Life it too short to spend an hour on something that makes you angry.
Dave in MN
Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 7:49pm (UTC -6)
I didn't realize commenters were obligated to either give good reviews or keep silent.
Jammer
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 2:22am (UTC -6)
Review now posted.
AMA
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 3:46am (UTC -6)
@Leif, Mark

In short, from my perspective, The Mandalorian feels at home in the Star Wars universe and it delivers in much the same way the original trilogy of movies did, as a space western that pits hero(es) against villain(s). It may be a shallow formula, but it's one that works, for me.

Star Trek: Discovery, alternatively, and again, from my perspective, has felt largely out of place from its universe. This may be, in part, because of a fairly radical aesthetic redesign (e.g., ships that seem out of place with their time, given what was previously presented in universe; and new alien makeups without any real explanation). It may also be because the thoughtfulness engendered by past series has generally not been seen: rarely has Discovery provided an examination of the human spirit, or morality, ethics, and values. Moreover, and given the turnover of the writing staffs in the first two seasons of the series, it should not be surprising that some, including myself, might find the season-long arcs have been disjointed and ineffective.

I continue to watch not because I want to harp on or hate Discovery, but because I love Star Trek and want to love every of its newest iterations. I might compare it to being a fan of a sports team: you may be disappointed by how your team performs in any given season, and even hate at it times, but you stick around, hoping they can achieve something far more. Maybe modern Trek won't ever offer the same depth it previously did and it just is what it is now. Should that be the case, however, Star Wars offers a far better space opera/western. I've just always thought of Star Trek as offering something more.
Rahul
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 9:35am (UTC -6)
I see so many glowing comments/reviews/ratings about “The Mandalorian” — certainly seems to be kicking DSC’s sorry butt. I’ve never been a big Star Wars fan. I’ve actually only seen the 3 original movies. My question is: Does one have to have seen all the Star Wars movies to be able to follow / understand / have the background needed to appreciate “The Mandalorian”?
AMA
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 9:56am (UTC -6)
@Rahul "Does one have to have seen all the Star Wars movies to be able to follow / understand / have the background needed to appreciate “The Mandalorian”?"

In my opinion, no. The series, for one, is set before the newest trilogy, so the events of the latter don't really affect the narrative. There are elements from multiple animated series that make their way into the show, but you can still enjoy The Mandalorian without having seen anything beyond the original trilogy. I'm loathe to raise anyone's expectations regarding most anything so I'll just say that I think most anyone who enjoyed the original trilogy of movies would enjoy The Mandalorian.
Dave in MN
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 1:47pm (UTC -6)
@ Rahul

I've never really followed Star Wars other than watching the original movies when I was a kid and seeing the prequels in the theaters. I had only a few questions while watching this and the SW fans here were very helpful.

Well worth watching!
Dave in MN
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 2:08pm (UTC -6)
In the interest of fairness, I did try to watch the sequel trilogy but the dumb plotting prevented me from finishing any of them. Case in point: Leia Poppins

There's none of that sequel cringe in the Mandalorian.
The Chronek
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 2:27pm (UTC -6)
I loved this episode. And the build up to finally reveal Luke Skywalker was pitch perfect. I didn't know I wanted or needed that emotionally, to see Luke again. Not gonna lie, I teared up seeing him. I didn't feel like it was solely for nostalgia, either. Post-ROTJ, there aren't many Jedis left. Who better than Luke to come to the rescue and train Grogu?

Mandalorian is the best Star Wars since Empire.
Rahul
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 4:45pm (UTC -6)
@ Dave in MN
@ AMA

Thanks for the responses. I think it would bother me if there was some basic background I didn't have for MAND. And I don't know the SW-verse nearly as well as I know the Trek-verse. Like with PIC, not remembering some details from "Nemesis" bothered me but ultimately wasn't a killer for watching PIC S1.

But given the tremendously positive feedback MAND seems to be getting, it's probably worth taking the leap.
Atomguy
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 5:44pm (UTC -6)
I’m almost certain Baby Yoda will return in Season 3, because it’s either that or having the implication that Kylo Ren killed him before TFA.
Jammer
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 9:04pm (UTC -6)
Considering there's about 20 (?) years before Ben's insurrection, there's any number of ways they could explain what happened to Grogu. It doesn't necessarily have to be addressed by The Mandalorian again at all.
Dave in MN
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 10:19pm (UTC -6)
^

Jammer is exactly correct. 👍

Ben Solo is only 4 years old during the time The Mandalorian takes place.

Also, there's some chatter that the entire sequel trilogy may end up being retconned by Disney as an alternate universe. Tone will tell.
Dave in MN
Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 10:20pm (UTC -6)
*Time will tell.

Sorry, my auto-correct has it's own agenda.
Naomi
Fri, Dec 25, 2020, 4:35am (UTC -6)
God. Damn. I'm more of a Star Trek fan, but The Mandalorian is 1000% times more satisfying than Discovery or Picard. It's just... really, really good. Merry Christmas.
The Chronek
Fri, Dec 25, 2020, 5:01pm (UTC -6)
I know The Mandalorian also ties in a lot of stuff from what was once the Star Wars expanded universe. I'm only a little familiar with that stuff, and I didn't feel like I was missing anything by not religiously knowing the SWEU. Admittedly, the Thrawn reference was really cool in The Jedi.
Richard Webb
Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 3:47am (UTC -6)
It boggles my mind that Jammer is not reviewing The Expanse.
Jason R.
Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:15pm (UTC -6)
This finale, while not perfect, packs more punch, gives us better spectacle, and carries more dramatic weight than all of the sequels put together. Good god, so Disney knows how to make a good Star Wars story after all! Imagine that: action that has tension and gravity, flowing from logical ideas and not arbitrary spectacle; a strong story with real world building in every scene that actually respects its characters; a well earned emotional payoff flowing naturally from *gasp* actual character development and growth; even a bad-ass fan servicing cameo that is perfectly set up and executed for maximum wow factor but is held back until the right moment.

What the Mandalorian got that the sequels completely missed is that we want to spend time in the Star Wars universe, to feel like it is a real place with real worlds and aliens and characters; that not everything has to be about the fate of the galaxy; that lightsabers should be used sparingly; that sometimes smaller stories are the best and to tell a big story well you do have to start small! (Or small-er at least)

From now on, I am going to file away the entire sequel trilogy into some non canon box, say along with that Jedi Academy novel series. As far as I am concerned, the Mandalorian is the sequel to the Star Wars trilogy, its proper successor. To hell with Mary Sue Ray and good-for-nothing Finn and the whole lot of them. To hell with gigantic fleets of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 death star destroyers and bullshit casino planets and plot breaking light speed jumps through enemy capital ships and all of that tedious, unearned, vapid FX vomit spectacle.

As I see it there are two paths forward for me to enjoy Star Wars: something in that 20 something year gap before the sequels or more prequels. But the second Rey and her merry band so much as get a whisper I am bailing.
Maq
Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 10:00am (UTC -6)
Wow! Well, I am more Star Trek then Star Wars but Mandlorian was the biggest surprise since very long time in the Sci-Fi genre. As an extra you got back to Bonanza and Sergio Leone, Akira Kurozawa etc.

Very much stand-alone episodes. There was ono or two that did not really convince me but they where still not too bad. Ok, the episode context was never to complicated and not nested. Therefor sufficent short. Females in many important roles. I suppose Grogu is away as a main character. Partly good as hawing him around would have been tedious. On the other side he really made a cute contrast making it lighter and more humourful.

Amazing that an interaction between a more or less nontalking puppet and a man with very few words and a small metal dust bin on his head could be so interesting and full of context.

It really lightened my Corona Winter.
SeanD
Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 5:29pm (UTC -6)
I just came to say, Jammer, I'm so happy you are doing Mandelorian reviews. You're my favorite Trek reviewer out there. Whenever I am doing Trek rewatches, which is embarrassingly often, I always read your reviews as I go.

Thanks for all you do buddy. 😃
Cory
Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 1:21am (UTC -6)
@Yank - RE: "Having the timeline of the show mixed up."

You think YOU had it bad? When I first heard of this show, I was a casual SW fan and all I kept hearing on social media was the craze about "Baby Yoda". So for the entire first season, *I* was convinced this was taking place 900 years before the events of the original trilogy.

I was like: "I wonder if any ancient Sith lords will show up. Hey! Gustavo Fring just cut his way out of that crashed ship with what looks like a light saber--maybe HE'S the Sith lord! I wonder who his master was--Darth Millennial, perhaps?--and who his apprentice will be! And where are all the Jedi?"

lol.
Edmund Bloxam
Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:48pm (UTC -6)
I'm becoming a bit tired of how rubbish stormtroopers are. I get that it's kind of a joke. But this isn't a comedy. And the joke has been told. I would like to be invested in the action.

Which I am also becoming annoyed with. Because stormtroopers are there to be mown down. But more how poorly the gunfights are choreographed. In the original trilogy, it was annoying. But those movies are old. This is inexcusable. Two people pointing guns at each other with no cover, shooting...it's stupid. And it's a staple of this show!

So, for me this episode was a huge flop. Because, for the above reasons, the fighting was meaningless. You could essentially skip to the worst deus ex machina in television history. After yawning my way there, I thought 'oh, how are they gonna get out of this?'
Who is literally the most heroic hero in popular fiction? Him. He just Jesuses his way through, displaying the worst elements of prequel action. (The door scene in 'Rogue One' is unfortunately nodded to. That actually made a bit of sense.

An otherwise good season pooped away at the end.
Jason R.
Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 8:23am (UTC -6)
@Edmund, I liked the episode quite a bit but I am with you in getting annoyed with how ridiculously ineffective the storm troopers are. I mean sure, it's a running gag that they can't hit the broadside of a barn, but come on.

Can a handful of soldiers, however well equipped and badass, really just wipe out an entire starship worth of storm troopers without getting so much as a hangnail?

I mean I could swear at some moments Cara was just walking down a hallway directly into a hail of blaster fire without even bothering to take cover and just mowing down dozens of troopers like she's Rambo or something. It's not like she's wearing besker armor either so even if the troopers were just firing randomly down the hallway something should have put her down.

I also echo others in disappointment at how easily Gus Fring got whupped. I know he's not supposed to be a badass warrior like Mando but still, if he is going to actually pull out a weapon and try to go at Mando that way I'd hope he would be more effective. Too bad he didn't offer Mando a bottle of poison tequila to share. Now that would have been badass.
Latex Zebra
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:52am (UTC -6)
And Gina Carano is out of there!

I think it is a shame that she couldn't wind it in a bit on socials. Just because you have an opinion on things doesn't mean you need to share it to potentially millions of people. Seen people screaming cancel culture and that this is an attack on free speech. I received a polite talking to because a post I made on Facebook was reported to my employer. I am small fry. Not doing or saying things that can cause disrepute to your employer has long been a contractual obligation from employees.
So, yeah, a shame it came to this but Gina had it coming.
Booming
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 7:14am (UTC -6)
Comparing herself and Republicans to Jews in Nazi Germany while also having made transphobic comments, a minority murdered by the Nazis. How nice. Also accusing the current government of preparing a genocide. Does she want to start another career as a right wing pundit at OAN(N) or become defense sec in the next non Nazi administration? Did nobody tell her that steroids can cause brain damage? Next step ambient twitter rant? Don't these single digit iq celebrities have PR-people to protect them from themselves?!
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 10:47am (UTC -6)
Funny how this only happens to people from one side of the political map, eh?

Democrats can freely compare Trump to Hitler, call Republicans "Nazis" and "terrorists" and whatever they please. I don't recall any of them being fired or canceled.

And Gina didn't even call anybody a Nazi. Nor did she accuse anybody of "planning genocide". She just mentioned a specific dangerous process that happened in Nazi Germany and argued that a similar process is happening right now in the US.

She is 100% right.

The kind of demonizing that's being done to Republicans right now is downright scary. The fact that a person can't even *say* this simple truth without fear of being fired by a mob trial, only proves just how serious this situation is.


P.S.
I'm not interested in endless arguments about this. I've never had much patience for either bullies or people who support bullying mobs.
Booming
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 11:01am (UTC -6)
First they came for our celebrities...
Cody B
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 3:58pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

Wow saying Gina did steroids is a disappointing assumption. She was the original star for women’s mma. Truly broke down doors for women and girls look up to her. And when you say things like that I’m afraid girls could think looking like Gina is bad. Saying she does steroids is disappointing. She has actually spoke out against using steroids which is great because we don’t need little girls thinking that taking testosterone or HGH is a good idea
Booming
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:24pm (UTC -6)
@Cody
Why am I not surprised that you show up. Say Nazi three times and Cody appears.
Cody B
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:48pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

Nah. You say nazi atleast three times every day and I haven’t appeared in awhile
Booming
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 6:00pm (UTC -6)
@cody
"Nah. You say nazi atleast three times every day and I haven’t appeared in awhile "
I just assumed that you were in federal custody since January 6th.
Yanks
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 6:01pm (UTC -6)
Cancel Culture strikes again... Gina fired.
Dave in MN
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 6:09pm (UTC -6)
I think it's hilarious when two people deliberately mischaractetize each other to score points. Neither of you are the partisans the other claims.

Isn't focusing on the conversation better served on by focusing on your arguments instead of on personalities?

As far as Gina getting fired, she made the exact same analogy her still-employed co-star did, the only difference being which political party they were talking about.

Why does he still have a job?

This is also the very same company defends not firing yet another employee (the host of the High Republic show) who has made openly hostile racist Tweets.

Let's call this what Iit is: absolutely demonstrable discrimination and open bias.... this is actual blacklisting.

She should be suing them right now for wrongful termination.

Personally, I don't ever want to see another celebrity pontificating on any subject if they're not speaking up now about this. If it was wrong to deny jobs to communists who sympathized with the Soviet Union, then how is this any different?
Dave in MN
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 6:19pm (UTC -6)
And frankly, Nazi is short for "National Socialism", which was how Germany functioned post-Weimar.

Why is it wrong to compare a historic political party advocating national socialism a current one?
Dave in MN
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 6:20pm (UTC -6)
* with a current one?

Sorry for the typo.
Cody B
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 7:35pm (UTC -6)
@dave from mn

I agree completely. It’s actually scary. What Disney did firing her was either from some of their loud wokerati squawking or it was a preemptive strike because they anticipated some sort of backlash. Either way it was done in fear. Typically spineless corporate bs
Yanks
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 8:24pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN

"As far as Gina getting fired, she made the exact same analogy her still-employed co-star did, the only difference being which political party they were talking about.

Why does he still have a job?"

That tells the complete story right there.
Dave in MN
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 9:03pm (UTC -6)
@ Cody and Yanks

I've never registered with a political party and I'm proud that my first vote was for Jesse Ventura, a shockingly effective outsider. Ask most Minnesotans about the job he did .... it doesn't matter the party affiliation, we all liked him.

Speaking as a guy who does his research and has no party loyalty, I'm incredibly disturbed by this Witch Hunt atmosphere permeating the air.

I thought about watching "The Drumhead" again after all the recent hubbub, but honestly, I watch entertainment to escape reality, not to remind me of it.

I also dread what will happen when the pendulum swings back the other way. Will we go back to the old paradigm or will vindictiveness rule the day?

A lot of people aren't thinking clearly, that's for sure.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 10:01pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN
"Why is it wrong to compare a historic political party advocating national socialism a current one?"

The history nerd in me would like to point out that this is factually incorrect: The Nazi party was anything by socialist, despite its name.

Doesn't change the legitimacy of the comparison, though. It's interesting how the process of targeting and dehumanizing dissenters is pretty much the same, regardless of who is doing it.
Paul M.
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 1:27am (UTC -6)
As someone who is not American, I must say that I think that cancel culture over there is reaching horrendous levels. Surrendering your basic human rights - and the right to work is a basic human right - to unaccountable corporations is downright scary.

I don't agree with Gina Carano's views or her political positions or the way she expresses them, but I do believe in freedom of speech and that if someone goes overboard in practicing that freedom there should be clear rules to establish that, not some facelees mook in a corporate boardroom somewhere.

The scariest thing, to me, is how seemingly willing people are to hand away their freedoms. Interested in reactions of fans, I went to Mandalorian reddit and was amazed by what I found there. They were all cheeeing! This is McCarthyism come again.
Dave in MN
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 2:29am (UTC -6)
"Going overboard with practicing a freedom"?

I don't mean to pick on you because you agree with me on principle, just intellectual curiosity.

Who gets to decide how much of a freedom being expressed is "going overboard"?

IIt seems dangerous to start putting limitations on speech. Those in power can't be trusted to constrict speech such a power is inevitabky abused.
Booming
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 2:35am (UTC -6)
Wow, when Omicron makes the most correct historical statement we are in hot waters. Is it corona? are people losing it?

This is not McCarthyism. It is a company that fired or more precisely didn't renew the contract of somebody because they feared that it would damage their business. Happens all the time. Try telling people about how smart Karl Marx was in the break room and see what happens. Or get pregnant. Hey, I'm all for limiting the power of companies. Let's make it really hard for companies to fire people! Nice to see that some right wing people start to see leftist wisdom.

First of all, she is not some union organizer who will now die poor. She is rich with millions of supporters. She will be fine. And a colleague on the show made another holocaust comparison? I am afraid to ask, but to be fair, who was it?

This is not like Nazi Germany. Antisemitism wasn't created by the Nazis. Germany at the time, actually most of Europe was pretty antisemtic already. The European Jews had already suffered through more than a thousand years of varying degrees of discrimination. In the so called "Nürnberger Rassegesetze" (nuremberg laws) Jews were banned from marrying Germans and extramarital sex between German Jews and other Germans was a felony. Jews were also banned from displaying the German flag. Jews were banned from working for the state. Jews were no longer German citizens. Jewish doctors, lawyers, pharmacists were no longer allowed to work. All Jewish organizations were banned. German Jews were no longer allowed to go to normal schools. And more.
That happened in 1935. People who say that Democrats are planning anything like this are either idiots or evil. By the way, saying that global elites, LGBT ideologues and leftwing extremists are trying to destroy the nation is exactly what the nazis said (ok they called it homosexual cabals not LGBT ideologues).

Oh and Dave. The Nazis were brought into power by industry magnates and reactionaries. Believe it or not, these people were not pro socialism.

And on a more general note. Can we ban actors from making any statement. I know, I know free speech but I'm spending quite a bit of time navigating around what actors say in private because it is at best shallow and at worst... well this. I knew that she is a right wing nut and I didn't care. She is in mma (according to cody) no idea what that is (and I refuse to find out) but I guess it is about violence and lower class people turning each other into cripples for the audience's pleasure. So yeah probably not the sharpest tool in the shed. Again where are her PR people who are payed to tell her: Cara, you are an idiot, don't use social media! No Cara, give me the phone!! NO!!! BAD CARA!!!! BAD!"

Watching the US meltdown is far less fun since Trump was banned from twitter. Now it is just depressing.
Paul M.
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 4:16am (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN,

By "going overboard" I meant that many human rights have their limits, but there are constitutions and laws to set those limits and courts to implement them. It is horrendous to me to see that over the pond it's enough to express unpopular, or even outright wrong, views to get fired. This is not about Gina Carano. I have no doubt she'll be fine. This is about the slippery slope to all-pervasive censorship that's been getting ever more slippery. Distinguished journalists have been fired because they weren't advancing the positions of mainstream concensus, lecturers and professors have been sacked because they dared to publically oppose occupation of Palestine or call for BDS, and the list goes on and on. We on this site at least should be aware of Picard's message in Drumhead.
Booming
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 5:37am (UTC -6)
to add to Paul M. point: A company firing people isn't censorship. You could call it political persecution. Censorship is the state limiting what people can write or say. To give a simple example for censorship that almost everybody accepts. You cannot show hardcore porn on an openly accessible TV channel.
Booming
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 6:03am (UTC -6)
And to show my support for free speech (not because I wanted to anyways) I will cancel my Disney+ subscription!
Booming
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 6:06am (UTC -6)
ps: I'll wait 24 hours for suggestions what I should write as the reason that I cancelled :)
Jammer
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:26am (UTC -6)
Booming is correct in this case. This is not McCarthyism, and it's not a free speech situation. It rarely is when it involves a firing. Free speech applies to your ability to say what you want without government interference. That's not what this is. Gina Carano was fired because she stepped over the line in the eyes of her employer. Whether you agree with it or not (I'm ambivalent; while I think people should be able to voice political views outside of work, I think this is more about a pattern of behavior than this one specific tweet, which was simply the straw that broke the camel's back), it's pretty hard to make the case that an employer has to continue to employ someone for breaking their code of conduct.

Carano stupidly played the game of chicken in trying to be a Provocative Twitter Warrior while also being a Corporate Conglomerate Employee. You cannot do both. Eventually you will lose the latter while doing the former. Carano was in the headlines every other week with the Twitter controversies. That will get under the skin of any company, because it eventually looks like they are condoning the views or behavior.

For those arguing Pedro Pascal did the same thing, I would argue that with Carano there was a pattern of behavior (and likely, she was warned behind the scenes) and the bosses simply grew tired of it and decided it wasn't worth the trouble for the ongoing negative press.

What amazes me is that people choose to be Twitter warriors when being employed is far more lucrative. But, hey, she decided she wanted to do the Twitter provocateur thing and it didn't work out. She's free to continue to speak out; no one has silenced her. It's happened to a lot of people (on both sides of the political spectrum) and it will happen to many more, because companies will make a calculation and ultimately protect the bottom line. If this were an isolated mistake, I would be more bothered. But I have little doubt she was warned she was on thin ice.
Cody B
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:29am (UTC -6)
@Booming

“She is in mma (according to cody) no idea what that is (and I refuse to find out) but I guess it is about violence and lower class people turning each other into cripples for the audience's pleasure. ”

Mma is martial arts. The various martial arts include gyms where kids who have nothing, no one, can go and be shown that if they are willing to put in the work that they can always count on themselves and unlike the lot they were given in life the outcome will be fair. That not only are they not worthless, but they are actually powerful and beautiful. I would suggest taking just five minutes and reading about the lives of people like Anne Wolfe or Lamont Peterson. You are making broadstroke assumptions and have a prejudice that if other people had and verbalized about folks you relate or look up to you’d hit the roof.
Jason R.
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:47am (UTC -6)
@Jammer I seem to recall that blackballing in the entertainment industry was a notorious feature of the McCarthy era. That too was private companies making hiring / firing decisions based on their own interest.
Jammer
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:01am (UTC -6)
Well, I don't know that this is blackballing. We do have a much different situation now where social media gives everyone a platform, which they can use stupidly and it gets them in trouble.

The McCarthy era was more about guilt by mere suspicion, whereas with social media we now have the ability for (1) anyone to say anything and get it out there widely and (2) the irrefutable evidence of those statements right there to be used against you. The question becomes are the statements alone cause for termination. That I can't say without knowing what the code of conduct was and how many warnings someone got. We'll never know that. But I suspect this was not out of the blue.

I'm not saying it's right, but I'm also not saying it's not right. Actions have consequences when you represent someone else.
Cody B
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:09am (UTC -6)
@Jammer

You’re right about a company having the rights to hire and fire whoever they want but this is such a nuanced situation. It’s not a simple firing. She is blackballed, dropped by her agency and “cancelled”. I don’t think she will go hungry anytime soon but money will run out. She’s not an ultra wealthy a-lister. About those tweets you mentioned it’s two situations both which are free speech and not hateful in anyway. She said business should be open and that covid doesn’t know if someone is protesting or praising god. Now if I were a celebrity I would not have said anything and I agree it’s playing with fire but I think she’s making a broader point about how the large majority of the media refused to acknowledge that thousands of people with no masks on were dangering human lives not just by rioting but by refusing to comply with any covid rules. Her other tweet was about how people were trying to FORCE her into putting her preferred pronouns into her twitter bio and how she was an enemy for not doing so. Literally months of being attacked for not putting pronouns in her bio while staying silent on the subject. I guess she should have complied. I have to agree with the other posters who have compared all this to McCarthyism.
Cody B
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:15am (UTC -6)
And the situation is even more complex when you consider Gina Carano really was THE original women’s MMA star and absolute pioneer. This was a time when Dana White LAUGHED and said “women will never fight in the ufc”, Gina became a star WITHOUT the ufc which still hasn’t been done by any other mma fighter male or female. If she didn’t exist that really might not be women’s mma that is not an exaggeration
Jason R.
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:20am (UTC -6)
@Jammer I think "cancelling" in 2021 is about as close to blackballing as you're going to get. I'd suggest to you that this woman's acting career is over. She is free to speak her mind in her unemployment I will give you that, as were blacklisted actors in the 50s.

I was, incidentally, responding specifically to your claim that this was not McCarthyeism merely because she was fired by a private employer and not the government. In point of fact, some of the most notorious features of McCarthyism were that people were effectively cancelled without any official act of the state including through private employers and especially in Hollywood.

No commentary on this particular case by the way. I fully accept that this women's online activities were a liability to her employer just as being a communist or even a suspected communist in the 50s would have been a liability to any Hollywood studio hiring you. The firing then, as now, would have certainly been rational from the private employer's POV.

Just one final point about the free speech issue. Yes, technically free speech is specifically in reference to government suppression not the private sector. But if government happens to have a pending anti trust case against certain media titans who happen to own the entire digital public square right down to the access to cloud based infrastructure, and those titans happen to act in concert to suppress speech the government happens to not be fond of - it doesn't take a rabid conspiracy theorist to imagine that it's not just some random private employers doing their private thing, anymore than it was in the 50s.

I realize I'm addressing a slightly different angle than the example we were discussing but I do think the things are related, two heads of the same hydra. These "it's not the government so it's not about free speech" arguments are mighty disingenuous coming from the people who condemned McCarthyism.
Jammer
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:42am (UTC -6)
Yes, there's definitely a slippery slope here. I will give you that. But employment, especially with companies with deep pockets and an image to protect, comes at a cost to certain freedoms when you are in their employ, like it or not. Unfortunately, some of that is "shut up and play ball." I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's not unusual and not a symptom of a recent "cancel culture."

I also don't understand why someone with the job she had, with so much to lose, couldn't pull it together and not get mired in constant social media controversies of her own making. Again, it's the whole social media thing, where every opinion has to be broadcast and doubled down upon, and where apologies and seeing other viewpoints is seen as weak, and poking people in the eye is seen as a virtue. The whole thing is tiresome. (This, by the way, applies to certain individuals on all points on the political spectrum.)

We'll see if her career is over. It may not be. I don't hope for it to be, just like I wasn't out there posting hashtags calling for her firing. But every time she was in the news, I would hope for her to stop, simply because it was clear she was playing with fire and it was only a matter of time before she would get burned.
Jason R.
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 10:10am (UTC -6)
"I also don't understand why someone with the job she had, with so much to lose, couldn't pull it together and not get mired in constant social media controversies of her own making. Again, it's the whole social media thing, where every opinion has to be broadcast and doubled down upon, and where apologies and seeing other viewpoints is seen as weak, and poking people in the eye is seen as a virtue. The whole thing is tiresome. (This, by the way, applies to certain individuals on all points on the political spectrum.)"

You are preaching to the choir on this one. I loathe social media and am not on it. But unfortunately, the world disagrees. These tools are the public square in 2021, end of story. Wishing we were back in 1980 doesn't make it so. Every actress has to be on social media.

I admit I don't know all the details of what she said because none of the newspaper articles I have read actually quote them (that by the way does not strike me as accidental) Going by the descriptions I have read they do not sound like radical opinions meriting blacklisting.
Dave in MN
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 10:22am (UTC -6)
The fact remsins that Pablo Pascal made the same analogy two months ago and Pablo's included profanity. Her statement was more nuanced and less emotional than his version.

Two people, one analogy, two outcomes.

I also must object to this this notion that only goverments can censor. There's nothing in the definition of censorship that confines it to bureaucracies and historical usage of the word is not confined in such a manner.
Yanks
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 10:25am (UTC -6)
I would be very interested if someone in the "HR" department at Disney actually called Gina in, sat down and spoke to her about this. While I support an employers' right to hire and fire whom they wish, this is just another in the long line of left-leaning public lynching's. It is both in government and outside. Remember how the TEA Party was treated by the IRS? Government branches are used as weapons for the left.

It's funny how if you are employed by the US government, your social media "voice" can't be linked to your employment as long as you participate off duty, but this is somehow tolerated.

Her life-threatening, world ending tweets are here:
https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/see-gina-caranos-tweets-and-posts-that-got-her-fired/

Hell, there has been more "lively" conversations here and this is a very tempered respectful crowd. What on earth was going to threaten the monster that is Disney?

How many celebrities called for Trump's head in all manner of ways? How many of them got fired?

The only thing I can do is cancel Disney+.

Done, without seeing the last episode of WV BTW, a show I was very much enjoying.
Dave in MN
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 11:12am (UTC -6)
@ Yanks

I think this place is pretty unique and that uniqueness starts at the top.

Jammer's insightful commentary and tolerance is commendable in this day and age. I mean, I've read hundreds of thousands of words from the man and I still have no idea of his politics. He's also even-handed in his moderation. (News people could learn a thing or two from him).

And this kind of leading by example trickles down to the users.

I think the difference between this place and Twitter is we all see each other as people, not as avatars for political parties we love/hate. We can agree to disagree without campaigning to destroy our intellectual opponents.
Jason R.
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 11:44am (UTC -6)
Having read the comments, I'd say this actress's media savvy is limited to say the least. Her Twitter comments are about equivalent to Cara Dune charging a dozen storm troopers in a hail of blaster fire without bothering to even duck. Except in real life she had no plot armor :)

On the holocaust comparison, I don't dispute that the comments were hyperbolic. But to be fair here, if you suggested that the Nazi party was going to lead to the Holocaust in 1920 your statement would have been equally hyperbolic. Nobody can ever predict which group of authoritarian ideologues are going sink into obscurity or rise to power. The odds always heavily favour the former over the latter.
Jammer
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 11:45am (UTC -6)
"Jammer's insightful commentary and tolerance is commendable in this day and age. I mean, I've read hundreds of thousands of words from the man and I still have no idea of his politics. He's also even-handed in his moderation. (News people could learn a thing or two from him)."

Thanks. I guess I'm somewhat surprised you can't figure out where I stand politically based on those hundreds of thousands of words, but I suppose I could see why it's murky, because I generally stay out of the political fray here. Politics have become an absurd, toxic, contact battle sport, and it became clear to me years (decades?) ago that one side is never going to convince the other, and it's not something I'm interested in having litigated here. There's a time and a place, but I don't feel like that place is here. This place is about Star Trek and sci-fi. So I try to keep mostly out of that, because down that path only lies rhetorical ruin. I'd rather be a uniter at this place, not a divider.
Booming
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 12:29pm (UTC -6)
@Cody
"That not only are they not worthless, but they are actually powerful and beautiful."
I never said that they are worthless. I have no problem with them practicing martial arts. I have a problem with people watching it and it then becomes so prestigious and profitable that people see it as a viable career path. Talking about slippery slopes. I think people beating each other into a pulp in a cage is pretty far down the slope already. People, who do this, often come from the lower classes and many of them end up as cripples and only very few are wealthy enough to pay for good health care. If you are not smart then what other way is there these days in the USA to achieve a position of respect or wealth when your parents are poor? Sports (and crime). And in the USA many popular sports actually make the athletes less healthy over time.
Booming
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 12:44pm (UTC -6)
@Dave
Can you give me the link. I could not find a direct quote.
Also while Carano was a somewhat important side character. Pascal is the lead. Without him there is no show. Jammer correctly pointed out that there was a pattern to Carano's twitter rants. First it was aginst mask wearing, then it was about how the election was stolen and now nazi comparisons. To me it looks like they just pulled the rip cord.

"I also must object to this this notion that only goverments can censor"
I guess that is debatable my point was more about the difference. Censoring means making a catalogue of things and when people use these, then they are punished. I'm pretty sure that Disney didn't give her a list of things she couldn't talk about. Meaning that the rules that guides the censors are made before and then broken. In the Carano case it is different. Is it clearer now what I meant?
Cody B
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 2:42pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

“Many of them end up as cripples”. No they don’t. That’s just completely false. The small handful of examples that can be found from the past twenty years are almost all directly from rule violations (hitting to the back of the head) or negligence on the part of officials. And kids going into martial arts gyms aren’t encouraged to become pros. It instills confidence and discipline. I remember an interview with Anne Wolfe someone had where they asked her “tell me about some of your upcoming pros, the hot prospects we will be seeing in the ring” to which she said something like “I don’t care about my pros. I’d rather talk about the boys who just went through the military and are now in college after coming to me eight years ago in foster care and their mom was on crack”. Yes I’m talking about combat sports but life itself is a fight.
Cody B
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 3:35pm (UTC -6)
@Booming

“ If you are not smart then what other way is there these days in the USA to achieve a position of respect or wealth when your parents are poor? Sports (and crime).”

A lot to unpack in that statement. What ways are there for people in your country who are poor and “not smart”? Well if their aren’t role models in the home, places like martial arts gyms are a good place to find those role models. Believe it or not they are not run by cavemen but almost always good people trying to help kids. There are also boys and girls clubs.
Dave in MN
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 5:50pm (UTC -6)
@ Jammer

You just don't seem like a guy who neatly slots into some artificial political binary, if the fair-minded way you approach reviews from multiple angles is any indication.

@ Booming

It's ironic we're discussing cancel culture and you're still using terms ("crippled" , "the homosexuals") that would have you pushed out of Hollywood so fast your head would spin.

That's the thing, in Hollywood no one would care what your intent is or if there's actual malice in your heart. They'd blacklist you and toss you out with the trash, whether you mean well or not.
Jammer
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 6:11pm (UTC -6)
"You just don't seem like a guy who neatly slots into some artificial political binary, if the fair-minded way you approach reviews from multiple angles is any indication."

That's the thing. Most people probably *don't* fit into any particular binary political box, but the partisan (and increasingly polarized) state of our electoral politics has all but forced everyone into one, and the no-compromises, take-no-prisoners political combat media infrastructure has made it very hard for sane voices and middle ground to be paid any attention. Even ones who just want good governance and policy that lean in one direction or the other.
Dave in MN
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 6:35pm (UTC -6)
@ Jammer

You've got a great point. It applies to everyone here, after all.

I doubt there's one user that agrees 100% of the time with ANY political party. INow that I think about it, I'm not even certain such a person exists .... anywhere.

It's sad that everything is just so stratified and toxic with politics nowadays because it IS an interesting subject. Humans trying different methods to solve social problems is fascinating, and it's doubly so when a new issue (cloning, AI rights, etc) comes up for debate.

Talking things out and compromising should be encouraged .(which, incidentally, is another point in your corner for leadership by example.)
Booming
Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 6:40pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN
Well, maybe.

@cody

"A lot to unpack in that statement. What ways are there for people in your country who are poor and “not smart”? Well if their aren’t role models in the home, places like martial arts gyms are a good place to find those role models. Believe it or not they are not run by cavemen but almost always good people trying to help kids. There are also boys and girls clubs."
Right, a lot. In Germany you have a right to an apartment, education is free, the state gives you money, quite a bit actually, if you go back to school when you are poor.

About martial arts. For a long time people had that notion that teaching people from problematic areas martial arts will make them less violent which when you really think about sounds already pretty stupid. Studies show time and time again that teaching people from problematic areas martial arts leads to an increase in violence, not a decrease.
start the clip at 0.09.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wznw45kgoq8&ab_channel=A.ShainaSaeed

About the cripple thing.
I will just quote "Rates of disease have been found to be about 30% among those with a history of multiple head injuries... . Professional level athletes are the largest group with CTE, due to frequent concussions and sub-concussive impacts from play in contact sport. These contact-sports include American football, ... , boxing, kickboxing, mixed martial arts, association football, and wrestling" When they checked the brains of football players they found degenerative brain diseases (Chronic traumatic encephalopathy) in almost all of them. But I'm fairly sure that these facts will not convince you. So let's leave it at that. You made your points, I made mine.
Cody B
Sat, Feb 13, 2021, 1:19am (UTC -6)
@Booming

All I ever said was martial arts can and usually does instill confidence and discipline in kids who have nothing and no one. You've morphed that statement into kids who “are not smart” and in “problematic areas”. I don’t have any areas in mind I was just saying that martial arts does give kids positive role models, discipline, confidence, maybe even something to live for.
You said
“About martial arts. For a long time people had that notion that teaching people from problematic areas martial arts will make them less violent which when you really think about sounds already pretty stupid. Studies show time and time again that teaching people from problematic areas martial arts leads to an increase in violence, not a decrease.”
Could you please link some of those studies? I would like to take a look at them. Are you trying to say opening a martial arts gym in a community leads to an uptick in murders? I’ll take a look at those studies maybe I’ll be surprised but THAT is something that sounds “pretty stupid”.

As far as CTE, that was never discussed until you just now brought it. You said a lot of people are “crippled” from martial arts, which is a false statement and I said as much, and then you moved the goal post to CTE and talking about football. CTE is a problem but if you’re going to look at CTE in combat sports you need to narrow it down to the past twenty years when the disease was understood and steps were taken to avoid it. It vastly safer nowadays than it was in even the 1980s. But even this conversation is unnecessary when talking about kids doing martial arts. They don’t even have to ever compete or even spar for that matter to be a part of and accepted in any given gym. If they did compete there would be headgear and they would be closely monitored. This is all getting far from my original point of martial arts being a good thing for many kids as that doesn’t automatically mean they have to compete and they certainly aren’t going to be groomed for and expected to turn professional.
Booming
Sat, Feb 13, 2021, 2:35am (UTC -6)
@Cody
Now you make me work for you?! Fine
About social behavior. The biggest study on the matter.
https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.00414.x?casa_token=cP93SC4FwxAAAAAA%3ArioxeRe8_20jQ7bo-1mtqGcz1c1Q2mSaRzilKXkJMLfivkEaXH2QKgcR80YxofmLTHO2HvsdFvYb9rU

quote:"The correlation analyses between the Power Sports Index and the measures of antisocial involvement revealed a highly consistent pattern (Table 4). The correlations were positive, of substantial magnitude,and highly significant."


"You said a lot of people are “crippled” from martial arts"
Is having your brain beaten into a soup not considered being crippled?

injuries
https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.00414.x?casa_token=cP93SC4FwxAAAAAA%3ArioxeRe8_20jQ7bo-1mtqGcz1c1Q2mSaRzilKXkJMLfivkEaXH2QKgcR80YxofmLTHO2HvsdFvYb9rU

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/2/254/htm

to quote "A systemic review and meta-analysis of the epidemiology of injuries in MMA revealed that head injuries accounted for the highest distribution of injuries by anatomic region, with data ranging from 67.5% to 79.4% [19]. The authors also found that the injury pattern in MMA was quite similar to that of professional boxing, unlike other combat sports such as judo [20] or taekwondo [21], where blows to the head are outlawed. It is concerning that head injuries account for the highest proportion of injuries sustained by the competitor during the bout, and this became even more worrying after video analysis of 844 telecasted UFC MMA bouts revealed that about 90% of TKOs were a result of repetitive strikes. When the TKOs secondary to repetitive strikes were examined further, the 30 seconds before match stoppage was characterized by the losing competitor being hit by a series of multiple strikes to the head that increased in frequency [22]. Few would argue that when a contestant experiences a KO, he would meet the criteria for concussion, which is a type of traumatic brain injury."

"I was just saying that martial arts does give kids positive role models, discipline, confidence, maybe even something to live for."
There are many things that provide good role models, discipline and confidence that do not glorify violence.

BUT I have already spent far more time then I wanted on this. If you want to believe that MMA is awesome and healthy because it makes you feel good. Great.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 6:23am (UTC -6)
@Jammer
"That's the thing. Most people probably *don't* fit into any particular binary political box, but the partisan (and increasingly polarized) state of our electoral politics has all but forced everyone into one, and the no-compromises, take-no-prisoners political combat media infrastructure has made it very hard for sane voices and middle ground to be paid any attention."

The real problem with the current style of discourse, is that it politicizes everything. What's currently going on in the world (and in the US in particular) is terrifying, and one does not need to be affiliated with any political party to openly state this.

We are slowly but surely deteriorating into a "1984"-style dystopia. This scares the heck out of me, and at this point I couldn't care less about right-wing or left-wing ideologies. Those quibbles could wait after this crisis is over. At this point, I simply want this nightmare to stop, and I would support any public figure - regardless of their political affiliations - who decides to fight these worrying trends.

@Paul M.
"As someone who is not American, I must say that I think that cancel culture over there is reaching horrendous levels. Surrendering your basic human rights - and the right to work is a basic human right - to unaccountable corporations is downright scary."

Agree 100%

"The scariest thing, to me, is how seemingly willing people are to hand away their freedoms. Interested in reactions of fans, I went to Mandalorian reddit and was amazed by what I found there. They were all cheeeing! This is McCarthyism come again."

The original McCarthyism serves as a fine reminder of how both sides of the political spectrum can go down this route.

Back in the 1950's it was the right. Now it's the left. Needless to say, these witch hunts are equally repugnant regardless of who is doing them.

The big problem, however, is that the current witch hunters have the insane power of social media in their hands. Nobody could achieve such total control in the 1950's. So this time it's going to be much harder to fight against.
John
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 6:52am (UTC -6)
"The real problem with the current style of discourse, is that it politicizes everything. What's currently going on in the world (and in the US in particular) is terrifying, and one does not need to be affiliated with any political party to openly state this.

We are slowly but surely deteriorating into a "1984"-style dystopia. This scares the heck out of me, and at this point I couldn't care less about right-wing or left-wing ideologies. Those quibbles could wait after this crisis is over. At this point, I simply want this nightmare to stop, and I would support any public figure - regardless of their political affiliations - who decides to fight these worrying trends. "

But you've already politicized it. When you remove the politics, stop watching the news channels and listening to the media, there's nothing "going on in the world" - It's just you sitting in front of your computer, believing in stories and feeling fear.
Booming
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 8:00am (UTC -6)
I never understood that right wing fear of the left in the USA. Conservatives are for more numerous in the military and the intelligence community, same goes for police forces. Add to that the 6 to 3 conservative majority on the supreme court and the gigantic number of conservative judges trump appointed and there is really not much to fear from the left. All the means of the state that could control or punish the population are majority conservative, huge majorities.

I have pointed that out several times, gigantic global companies are not left or acting leftist, that includes social media companies!!! Do I even have to explain why gigantic capitalistic entities are not leftist?! Companies deny you service when they think that it hurts their business. It is about capital, not das Kapital.

And about 1984. Through tech it becomes easier to monitor people, predict their behavior and control them. So yes, controlling people will become easier and easier. You either have the state controlling the people and if you weaken the state then you have companies doing the controlling. Maybe anarchists had a point... I guess, one solution would be to heavily control the state but for that you would need a populace that is really engaged and active. Not likely. People are easily scared and not willing to admit that which leads to the desire for safety which in effect means control. They also don't believe in themselves and are a little lazy. So yeah,a technocratic police state, a capitalistic dystopia or anarchy. Take your pick. :) Oh and don't worry about a communist state. These only happen when people starve + war.

Mhhh moody Sundays... :D But don't listen to me. Maybe something unforeseen happens and it all turns out fine or something extremely terrible happens and all these big problems will be forgotten while we all fight over small pieces of dried meat or a vegetarian alternative.
Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 9:27am (UTC -6)
@ Booming

If you want to understand someone's fear, put yourself in their shoes. Or create a hypothetical where the current paradigm is reversed?

Would you be okay if these tactics were used against you? Would you like to be fired for simply posting the same analogy your co-workers made?

BTW, if you want to find Pedro's comments, you just need to Google " Pascal Republocan fucking Nazis ".

I'm supposed to believe there's NO bias in Disney's decisions?
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 9:52am (UTC -6)
@John

Given that the TV Networks and the media generally try really hard to pretend that nothing I've stated is a big deal, your statement doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps it is you who should stop believing the narrative you're being fed by that little box? Turn your TV off and do your own research for a while. I guarantee that you'll find it illuminating.

@Dave in MN

"If you want to understand someone's fear, put yourself in their shoes. Or create a hypothetical where the current paradigm is reversed? Would you be okay if these tactics were used against you? "

The funny thing (in a sad way) is that this is bound to happen at some point. These witch hunters always turn against their own, eventually. Unfortunately, by the time thing get so far that these people wake up, it is usually too late to do anything about it... :-(
Booming
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 5:04pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN
Ok now I finally found the tweet. https://twitter.com/neontaster/status/1359866655682293768/photo/1 Is it this one?

I think Carano's is worse. Quite a bit actually.

And as we both know, Pascal is the star who is also a talented actor. Carano is a side character who says lines in front of a camera.
Without him the most successful Disney+ show would be gone. As long as he doesn't have a secret underground dungeon they will not fire him.

"I'm supposed to believe there's NO bias in Disney's decisions?"
Are you saying that the Disney company has a left wing bias?

" Or create a hypothetical where the current paradigm is reversed?"
You mean if every aspect of state security wasn't dominated by right wing people but by left wing people? That will never happen because leftists don't join the police or the military or the intelligence services in numbers that would create a majority. Just to mention it, the Jews in Germany in 1933 were around 0.75% of the population not 50% like right wing people. They did not control any state governments or held any federal offices, military posts or owned giant piles of guns like many on the right in the US. Right wing people fearing left wing people is like Arnold Schwarzenegger fearing Danny DeVito.
Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 5:43pm (UTC -6)
@ Booming

Instead of putting in my words in my mouth (which was everything after the words "You mean if ..."

Let's not overthink things, just take my words at face value. No need to clutter it op.

If conservatives ran the social media zeitgeist and liberals were getting banned and fired for making analogies referencing Nazism on social media, how would you feel? Would that be okay?

Would it be ethically or morally just?
Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 6:00pm (UTC -6)
@ Booming

I should've proofread before I hit send, but it was actually a Instagram post he since deleted. (I don't use social media so I didn't recall which platform used to say it).

He deleted TWO posts on Insta apparently. (The second one includes a image that has been misappropriated and doesn't show what he alleges).

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/02/two-mandalorian-actors-posted-nazi-analogies-social-media-lucasfilm-fired-conservative-one/

He also made more than one Tweet of questionable merit:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/11/07/the-mandalorian-and-wonder-woman-actor-pedro-pascal-compares-donald-trump-voters-to-nazis/

ISide note: it's pretty amusing that a woke individual such as Pedro would be extolling the socialist virtues of the whitest countries on earth (all of which exploit North Sea oil for wealth while the US pays for their defense: freeing up that cash to pay for extra social goodies).

Care to rephrase your assessment of Pedro, Booming?

You think that's BETTER than Gina's statement?
Booming
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 6:43pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN
"Instead of putting in my words (sic) in my mouth"
I didn't. I apparently did not understand the question.

"If conservatives ran the social media zeitgeist and liberals were getting banned and fired for making analogies referencing Nazism on social media, how would you feel? Would that be okay?"
Ok, let's not underthink things.
I don't know what to tell you. This is all so subjective. Science let's me approach these thing differently than most people. You are saying that conservatives are persecuted on social media, I think? That is your impression. First, your impression could be off (perception bias), second even if your impression of the information that you are basing all this on is accurate, then we have to ask is the information wrong or does it portray an accurate picture of the situation. Third, even an accurate picture can be misleading (selection bias). In short, is there any scientific proof or is this all perception and speculation? You can of course think that it is so and you could be right but to finally answer your question with a clear and simple answer.

It depends.
Also the whole Nazi thing is kind of on a different level in Germany. If you make a comparison like Carano did in Germany you will very likely lose your job. If you work for the state I would say certainly, doesn't matter what political party you belong to (We have six in parliament: Right wing populists, Conservatives, Liberals (in Germany the centrist pro business party), Social Democrats, Green party, Socialists). In Germany there are different dynamics in public and political debates. The US system always has these debate dichotomies. I will not go into details but the US system is made for gridlock. Ok a little, your first past the pole system neither produces the clear majorities like the British does nor has it the marketplace of ideas and consensus features of the proportional representation systems like in Germany or Scandinavia. No es bueno.
Booming
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 6:52pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN
Just saw your other post. Is it proven that he made the 1865,1945,2020 post? It is from a different unverified account. Also, to quote from wiki:"The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right[2] fake news website.[1] The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.[21]"
Not the greatest source. I cannot say anything about the quality of the reporting of boundingintocomics.com.
I don't know what comparison to which European country you mean.
Cody B
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 7:30pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN

It will be a never ending back and forth. As Booming said “science let’s me approach things differently than most people”, so not only is Booming better than us (after all who could forget when Booming revealed he/she regular AMAZES people around her/him by constantly predicting the future), but also science allows her/him to regularly post studies that and graphs and charts that don’t really give any answer at all and doesn’t prove anything but with careful wording and constant posts of these studies the water can be muddied and mental gymnastics employed until you are mentally exhausted and tired of arguing

For the record though Dave you are right
Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 7:46pm (UTC -6)
@ Booming

Making the "challenge the source" argument is silly. I just picked the two top articles that had the most material consolidated within.

It would and should have taken you two seconds to find this mentioned all over the place. Pedro doesn't dispute it either.
Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 7:56pm (UTC -6)
Pascal's Tweet with the Scandinavian flags ( holding those countires up as the paragons of socialism) is what I'm referring to when I spoke about his unintentional racist hypocrisy. I find it amusing.

However, I don't want to hijack the conversation by arguing about minutae. I've made my point.
Booming
Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 2:14am (UTC -6)
@Cody
" so not only is Booming better than us (after all who could forget when Booming revealed he/she regular AMAZES people around her/him by constantly predicting the future"
Finally you understand and let me just say that I'm always impressed by your reading comprehension. Like the great Ben Shapiro you too cannot stop running into somebody's fist. Coincidentally yesterday somebody called me because something very good happened to him which I had predicted. It wasn't magic or anything. I just know the system really well. :)

Ok, enough of this. Have fun watching people get brain injuries!

@Dave in MN
"It would and should have taken you two seconds to find this mentioned all over the place."
That is the thing. Yesterday I searched with the terms you mentioned and clicked through 10+ articles and could not find anything clear.

Ok with the terms "pedro pascal Norway" I found the Scandinavia post.
"unintentional racist hypocrisy"
I don't know why posting these flags is racist or hypocritical and just to mention it Denmark actually did quite a bit for the USA over the decades. Why would you insult them? Whatever, his post is pretty dumb because these countries are mostly social democratic. The post he is reacting to is dumb as well.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 8:51am (UTC -6)
@Cody B
"It will be a never ending back and forth."

Indeed.

These "discussions" with this guy achieve absolutely nothing, because he isn't interested in an actual discussion. He is doing this because:

(1) He has a need to "prove" to everybody how right and smart he is and how stupid they are.
(2) He is bored sh*tless and this is a way to pass his time (that's not my interpretation but something he openly admitted many times). This also means that often his replies are deliberately provocative and nonsensical because that's the best way to lure you into an endless cycle.
(3) He simply can't refrain from replying.

This is why these arguments go on and on in circles, without anybody ever learning anything.

So what's the point? I can't speak for anybody else, but I - personally - have decided that I'm not going to waste any more of my time on pointless verbal sparring with people who aren't interested in an actual honest conversation.
Booming
Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 8:52am (UTC -6)
@Cody
Ok, let's break this cycle. I obviously hurt you in the past and now you come back again and again and are hurt more. I have a genius iq, remember that, I'll come back to it later. You will probably never win in a fair intellectual battle with me. To me it isn't interesting for a long time now and I suspect that you are not very successful in life, so that's two reasons why I have very little motivation to continue.

Quite a while ago, when you were attacking, I started weaving mistakes into my arguments to give you openings for easy wins. I repeated stuff, hoping that you would have come up with a good retort. I made flimsy arguments that were really shaky, a little push from you could have toppled them. Like the last one. I only cited one study, and not a good one. Studies about the social influence of martial arts are either inconclusive or positive (they have problems, too) but with a little bit of research you could have crushed my argument. You could have beaten a scientist at her or his own game. But you are so focused on your own feelings and to defend the few things that you hold dear that you always flew past all these chances. I also made several douchy statements like the genius statement at the beginning of this post. I just want you to score a few wins so that you can move on from whatever pain you are projecting on me.*

Do you know what actually summons you?
It is not the word Nazi.
It's me.


Well, see you next time, I guess.


*Of course I don't know if you are successful or not, if you are. Good for you.
Jason R.
Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 9:54am (UTC -6)
"Also the whole Nazi thing is kind of on a different level in Germany. If you make a comparison like Carano did in Germany you will very likely lose your job. "

You Germans should be lauded for acknowledging your historical guilt. Americans, by contrast, have nothing to feel guilty about - they liberated Europe after all.
Dave in MN
Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:12pm (UTC -6)
Just figured I'd mention that Booming is female.
Dave in MN
Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:15pm (UTC -6)
@ Booming

Let's not play the IQ game. It's pretty obvious that basically everyone here (from Jammer on down) has a sharper intellect than what would be considered "average".
Yanks
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 12:16pm (UTC -6)
The "Pedro tweet" I'm referring to is the one where he compared the detainment centers on the southern US border to the concentration camps.

How that's not worse than anything Gina ever posted is beyond me. But hey, Trump was in office so all is well. I wonder what would have happened to Pedro if Obama was in office?

Now I'm not for anyone getting fired for stuff like this, but if Gina had to go... why is Pedro still there?
Dave in MN
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 1:08pm (UTC -6)
@ Yanks

What's worse is that supposed picture of detainees in cages isn't even what he says it is. It is a picture from 2014 of Palestinian children in a Israeli holding facility.

It is doubly annoying because it was the Obama-Biden admin that put the kids in cages. No one disputes that.

Pascal doesn't care about the facts, though, and apoarently Disney/Lucasfilm doesn't either.
Booming
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 1:30pm (UTC -6)
I don't know if my post created any responses. i didn't read them because I'm to sensitive and afraid but I think this old debate could give some people some interesting insights. Giants.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wuB_p63YM
Jason R.
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 2:42pm (UTC -6)
"I don't know if my post created any responses. i didn't read them because I'm to sensitive and afraid but I think this old debate could give some people some interesting insights. Giants.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wuB_p63YM"

Like one of the commenters I think I spent the first 5 minutes waiting for Chomsky to appear before realizing that the guy speaking was Chomsky haha.

Really neat link Booming, thanks.
Paul M.
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 2:47pm (UTC -6)
It's interesting... I am having real trouble letting go of this Carano situation. I am a life-long leftie of the social-democratic variety, with certain views that would probably be considered far-left, especially in the US. I have never been a particularly big Star Wars fan. The Mandalorian is the first thing I've seen Gina in. I disagree with her on most of her policy positions, especially the election nonsense. But for whatever reason it really bothers me the way Disney treated her. Her posts weren't particularly provocative or offensive (unless you're looking to get offended by every silly over-the-top internet analogy) and her policy beliefs are hardly outside widespread conservative consensus, the main difference being she's vocal and ready to get in a fight, which incidentally I respect in people. The more I think about it, the more outrageous I find the whole situation. To fire a person because she publicly voiced some unpopular - and truth be told not that unpopular - opinions... I find that not only extremely problematic legally speaking, I am foremost disgusted by it as a human being, by this odious need to censor, punish, and revile people just because you disagree with them, instead of doing the decent thing, reaching out and trying to understand the other side. Let us communicate as adults, empathize with each other, understand where we come from and why we think the way we do and not engage in witch hunts and mob justice, no matter how righteous we feel. This is a story of our common defeat, I find, and that makes me very sad.
Dave in MN
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 3:16pm (UTC -6)
What's worse is they never told her she was fired. She found out the same way the rest of us did.

I'm almost 100% sure that's illegal. You can't disparage your now ex-employee in public whilst not notifying them of their termination.

I hope she has good legal representation. She can probably get her whole contract paid out.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 8:24pm (UTC -6)
@Booming
"I don't know if my post created any responses."

You made me curious and I looked. My God, that was surprisingly mean-spirited, even for you.

Anybody keeping a tally of how many times Booming deliberately tries to hurt another person with a wild under-the-belt attack? I wonder if we're in the 3-digit zone already.

"I didn't read them because I'm too sensitive and afraid..."

Let me get this straight:

You're such a tender sensitive soul, that you're deathly afraid of the responses you might get. Yet you don't give a hoot that you've just DELIBERATELY hurt another poster? Heck, you've done this dozens of time before, and not even once have you shown a hint of remorse?

Forgive me if I'm having trouble buying your "poor sensitive little me" routine.

At any rate, you'll be happy to learn that nobody retaliated to your vicious post in kind, so your saintly pure soul remains protected.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We apologize for the above interruption, and now return you to your regular program.
Sen-Sors
Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 12:29am (UTC -6)
It's interesting that people say "How will lefties feel when cancel culture is turned around on them" because that scenario describes most of the 20th century, at least in the US. Cancel culture wasn't invented by Twitter lefties, it's always been with us, often wielded by conservatives. The most extreme example being McCarthyism, but you can see shades of it in the efforts to suppress "subversive" rock/metal/rap music (long hair, tattoos, wiggling hips, NWA and Satan!) and books taught in school like To Kill A Mockingbird. Arguably, church-going conservatives were the OG cancel culture.

How about the Dixie Chicks? In 2003 the country group was one of the biggest acts in the genre, but after they spoke out against the Iraq war the backlash was furious and immediate. Their songs were pulled from the radio, their albums burned en masse in public, and they were bombarded with death threats. Their career was not completely destroyed but they never recovered to their previous status, and all for exercising their right to free speech. Cancel culture run amok, surely.

Colin Kapernick, anyone? I'm sure everyone who here is upset at Carano's firing was equally vocal about his ousting from the NFL, right?

That said, I am not necessarily a big fan of Twitter-style cancel culture. Exposing powerful people as predators and bigots is good, and Twitter gives regular people a voice (and power) in the larger culture that they previously didn't have; but there can be elements of mob-mentality, a refusal to accept apologies or growth from individuals, and just plain blowing things out of proportion. There's a trans lefty Youtuber goes by the name "Contrapoints" who did a great video on her own cancellation by trans Twitter. It's a long video, feature-length, and it's a deep dive into her personal life as well as trans politics within their own community, but she does a good job illustrating how something that began as a tool to hold the powerful accountable can sometimes become quite toxic. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8

I'm just saying cancel culture, for good or ill, has been around for a lot longer than Twitter. And just like Kapernick was picked up by Nike, Carano got a movie deal with Ben Shapiro not even a week after her firing. It's not Disney money, but she is far from being "blackballed" by the whole entertainment industry. I think Jammer got it right when he said you can work for a corporate giant or be a social media firebrand, but you can't be both. Disney doesn't give a damn about equality or trans people or anti-racism or they wouldn't remove Finn from the Chinese Star Wars posters. But here in the US, people with politics like Carano might endanger their revenue stream. They want everyone's money so they can't risk offending anyone. Maybe what we're seeing is that free speech isn't very compatible with the all-important profit motive.
Jason R.
Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 7:30am (UTC -6)
"It's interesting that people say "How will lefties feel when cancel culture is turned around on them" because that scenario describes most of the 20th century, at least in the US. "

Hypocrisy is an essential element of human interaction. It's practically a defining trait of the species.

Obviously it should be called out where warranted (and it's amply warranted in this situation) but truth be told, I actually feel comforted by my enemies' hypocrisies.

People often claim the Wokesters are really just after power or don't really believe their own BS like that's a bad thing. But to me that's reassuring. It's the people who really are pure, who really do walk the walk, that scare me.
Cody B
Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 8:22am (UTC -6)
@Paul M

Idk about you but The reason Disney doing that to Gina Carano bothers me is because you have what couldn’t be a bigger example of “corporation” stomping out an interesting outspoken person. The world needs people like that whether you agree with them or not.
Dave in MN
Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 8:40am (UTC -6)
Was Gina being political on the clock?

Was she protesting during filmmaking?

Was she attacking her employer in press interviews?

If we're going to compare Carano to Kaepernick (and ignore the more prescient comparison to her costars), then I think it should be pointed out that Colin and Gina's situations aren't the same.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 8:50am (UTC -6)
@Sen-Sors
"It's interesting that people say 'How will lefties feel when cancel culture is turned around on them' because that scenario describes most of the 20th century, at least in the US. Cancel culture wasn't invented by Twitter lefties, it's always been with us, often wielded by conservatives."

That's true, and it's not just the 20th century. This has been going on since the dawn of history.

But this just strengthens Dave's point:

You don't need to "imagine" what a reverse situation would be like. There are plenty of historical precedents, and history has proven just how bad and oppressive those precedents are.

So why are so people okay with the current situation? Was McCarthyism so fun that we want to go through it again? Do these things suddenly become okay when it is your side of the political map who does them?

"That said, I am not necessarily a big fan of Twitter-style cancel culture. Exposing powerful people as predators and bigots is good, but there can be elements of mob-mentality..."

It's not just an "element" of mob-mentality. It's the very nature of the psychological process that's going on.

There's absolutely NOTHING in the current cancel culture that is aimed to expose predators and bigots.

Just like McCarthyism wasn't really about exposing Russian spies, and the post 9-11 mania wasn't really about stopping terrorists. At best, you could argue that these things have *started* with these goals in mind, but even then, the end result was inevitable to anyone who knows anything about human psychology. At worst, you could argue that they were a deliberate ploy to use an existing crisis to gain more power over the others.

Have you noticed how these things *always* get out of hand? It's quite telling that all your examples of historical cancel-culture ended up badly, isn't it? When will we finally learn the lessons from history and stop doing this sh*t?

"But here in the US, people with politics like Carano might endanger their revenue stream. They want everyone's money so they can't risk offending anyone."

Ah. But ask yourself this question:

Why does Carano's politics endanger Disney's revenue stream, any more than Pascal's politics? Both of them referenced the Nazis. Both of them have also made plenty of controversial tweets in the past. So why does this logic only works in one direction? After all, roughly half of Disney's viewers are Republicans. Why aren't Disney afraid to offend *that* half of their customers?

It's funny how people use this argument of "this isn't censorship! It's just business!" without actually stopping to think what that argument really means: Apparently the mob of the extreme left has become so powerful, that the mega-corporations find it "profitable" to fire actors who exhibit wrongthink.

I don't know about you, but I personally find such a situation to be much scarier then a simple "we've let her go because we find her views appalling". This kind of thing only becomes a danger when it is systemized, and "systemized" is exactly what you get when there's a mob that pressures everyone to conform to the same way of thinking.
Yanks
Thu, Feb 18, 2021, 10:32am (UTC -6)
Great post OmicronThetaDeltaPhi.
Booming
Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 3:58am (UTC -6)
All the examples brought up here were in essence not the right cancelling leftwinger or vice versa, in all these cases it was the majority cancelling people from the minority. Dixie Chicks protested the Iraq war when that issue had 70% pro war sentiment behind it. Kapernick is similar thing. Flag cult is very strong in the USA. sen-sors rightly pointed out that it is mostly people from the left who are cancelled, why? Because the are often the first to go against the grain because if an anti authority mindset. Carano had made anti mask wearing (almost half a million dead), transphobic (study 2019 73% think trans people should get more protections), election fraud stuff (two thirds do not believe the election was stolen) and now nazi comments (nazi=evil; good point to pull the plug to have as little damage as possible for your business). On all these issues the vast majority holds different opinions. In the past there were also times when right wing people were cancelled a lot. Especially after the Johnson administration. People like George Wallace or Jim Clark. Pro segregation people. That is the macro perspective. So while it is then often the right wing bubble or the left wing twitter mob who pulls the trigger, that only happens because the majority is kind of ok with it.
It is the modern version of this Athenian procedure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism

Jammer correctly described the mico perspective. Disney probably warned her and then concluded that she is out of control, looked at the numbers and fired her.
Jason R.
Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 4:41am (UTC -6)
By the way Booming, the "giant" you cited earlier thinks cancel culture is a problem; he signed the letter, FWIW.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-from-atwood-to-chomsky-intellectuals-come-out-against-cancel-culture-1.8979336

I will preface my point by conceding without hesitation that hypocrisy on this point is a given and that if the right ascends again (right now it is in rapid decline all over the west and has been for more than 50 years) it will do the same thing in one form or another sooner or later.

HOWEVER there isn't any serious doubt at this moment in history that left is the perpetrator, end of story. Left against right; left against centre; left against left. This is not a symmetrical phenomenon.

I don't say that merely to single out left, as I certainly acknowledge the innate hypocrisy of all mankind (see above) but if you don't accurately acknowledge where it is originating from (a particularly virulent and totalitarian strain promulgated on the left) it is the same as denying it.
Mal
Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 4:47am (UTC -6)
This is nothing like Blacklisting.

"The blacklist involved the practice of denying employment to entertainment industry professionals believed to be or to have been Communists or sympathizers."

This is the opposite.

Disney is -
making a list,
checking it twice,
gonna find out who's naughty or nice
Santa Claus is coming to town
He sees you when you're tweeting
And he knows when you're awoke
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake.

Why do you hate Santa??
Jason R.
Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 6:15am (UTC -6)
"Disney is -
making a list,
checking it twice,
gonna find out who's naughty or nice
Santa Claus is coming to town
He sees you when you're tweeting
And he knows when you're awoke
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake."

FWIW I think Carano's case is borderline and I am sympathetic with Disney over a decision to fire another Twitter loose cannon. I doubt this is an evenhanded policy mind you since it seems 1/2 the entertainment industry are twitterheads but there is some understandable logic there.

And in Carano's case she seems to be finding options so maybe she'll survive. Definitely not the norm in these situations.
Booming
Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 4:34am (UTC -6)
@Jason R.
Cancel culture as it is now called is obviously a problem. No doubt. And social media has brought the ostracism back to it's crazy polis democracy self. My point was that we as human societies have always done these things and for the foreseeable future will continue with this procedure. Carano can still redeem herself but very likely won't. She will probably double down and then it will be a full ostracism. She is successful in a fairly conservative subculture which will keep her afloat. I think one could probably find some explanation there for her behavior as well. Meaning that she breaks with conservative feminine roles by being so muscular, risking backlash from her chosen subculture, therefore going all in on other believes typical for that subculture. Look at what she often wears on the red carpet, very feminine colors and dresses. Painted nails and so on. I hope she wears more masculine stuff. It would look so much better. But she probably understands that you can only diverge so much until people question your adherence to their group.

"HOWEVER there isn't any serious doubt at this moment in history that left is the perpetrator, end of story. Left against right; left against centre; left against left. This is not a symmetrical phenomenon."
I disagree, somewhat. Very recently it has become more pronounced on the left. It will calm down now, I think, now that nobody is Trump crazy anymore. Let's separate people into conservative and progressive. In general for several decades, with some shortlived reversals one could argue for 200 years now, societies progress which means that conservatives sooner or later become reactionaries, not because they changed but because societies changed. Then they are ostracized or canceled. Progressives are cancelled if they are too far ahead. That is why progressives sometimes later on are vindicated while conservatives who fall behind are not. Also I would argue that during the next 2-3 years we will see lots of cancelling on the conservative side done by conservatives.
Dave in MN
Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:42am (UTC -6)
One nice thing about this place is that people can talk things out and admit when the other side has a point.

I was just going to single out Booming for doing so, but I started rereading the conversation and ... yeah, kudos to everyone. 👍
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:27pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN

When did Booming do that?

Let's not let ourselves get distracted from the main issue here. As Jason stated:

"There isn't any serious doubt at this moment in history that left is the perpetrator, end of story. Left against right; left against centre; left against left.
This is not a symmetrical phenomenon."

This is precisely why cancel culture - in it's present form - is so terrifying. If it were only about random groups of people who ostracize other random groups of people, it wouldn't be a big deal, would it?

Now note that 99% of Booming's comment is aimed at denying Jason's statement. So what point, exactly, did she concede when she said "cancel culture is a problem"? Context, my friend, is everything.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 2:25pm (UTC -6)
@Booming
"Very recently it has become more pronounced on the left. It will calm down now, I think, now that nobody is Trump crazy anymore. "

This is factually wrong.

Trump has been gone for over a month now, and it isn't calming down. On the contrary: It looks like the PC mob has just gained *more* confidence from the fact that "nobody is Trump crazy anymore".

"Let's separate people into conservative and progressive."

Let's not.

Seriously, it is this kind of sh*t that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. This belief that "our side" (whichever that side it may be) is the paragon of virtue while the "other side" is a barbaric echo of the past which needs to be purged.

"In general for several decades, with some shortlived reversals one could argue for 200 years now, societies progress..."

Indeed.

Now here is an interesting challenge for you:

Can you describe what "social progress" entails, without referencing any political agenda?

"...societies progress which means that conservatives sooner or later become reactionaries, not because they changed but because societies changed. Then they are ostracized or canceled. Progressives are cancelled if they are too far ahead. That is why progressives sometimes later on are vindicated while conservatives who fall behind are not."

Do you realize how cultish this sound? Just because you call yourselves "progressives" does not mean you have a monopoly on social progress.

I'm reminded of all those religious nuts who claim "our religion is the ultimate truth and source of morality" while also committing - at the same time - horrendous amoral acts.

I mean seriously... look at all the things that people have done in the name of your allegedly enlightened views in the past few months. You call this living nightmare that's constantly getting worse "progress"? Are you f***-ing kidding me?

The worst of it is: This is exactly how the PC mob justifies what they are doing to themselves. They are so sure of their moral superiority that they treat everybody who thinks otherwise as subhuman.
Booming
Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 3:06am (UTC -6)
@Omicron
"Trump has been gone for over a month now, and it isn't calming down. On the contrary: It looks like the PC mob has just gained *more* confidence from the fact that "nobody is Trump crazy anymore"."
As in every overheated system it needs a little time to cool down. All these tendencies to overreach during a time of heightened tension need popular approval which during TrumpTime they somewhat had. They will lose that now. Soon they will just be radicals who demand stuff that nobody listens to.

"Seriously, it is this kind of sh*t that has gotten us into this mess in the first place."
Ok, in political science we see these issues as cleavages, which is basically a scale. So this scale would go from very conservative to conservative to neither pro or con to progressive to very progressive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleavage_(politics)
most have probably seen this model which combines two cleavages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Political_Compass

When I write conservative or progressive in this then I don't mean fixed ideas but certain believes prevalent at the time or maybe just a state of mind. For example, at the beginning of the republic slavery was accepted in many parts of the USA. Then there were people who wanted to keep slavery (conservative; in the Latin sense: conservare= to preserve) and people who wanted to get rid of it (progressive; promoting or favoring new policies). When societies progress then that just means that they get rid of certain things. That can be very challenging. Many whites in the South believed that they would all be murdered by their slaves the moment these were set free which did not happen but we all know how it is with fears.

"You call this living nightmare that's constantly getting worse "progress"?"
I wasn't making a moral judgement. Sometimes progress is good, sometimes it isn't. But I would not call the current USA a living nightmare.
Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 9:55am (UTC -6)
@ Booming

Explain to me how everything you just wrote isn't merely a rationalization to justify this kind of behavior.
Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 9:57am (UTC -6)
@ Omicron

Booming did that when she admitted cancel culture was a problem.

I think I'm starting to get along with her better because I will give her credit when she makes an admission.

And frankly, a lot of the time, she DOES have a point. I may not always care for the delivery of said point, but she often is presenting another viewpoint that I want to understand better.
Booming
Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 12:05pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN
"Explain to me how everything you just wrote isn't merely a rationalization to justify this kind of behavior."
It is more like describing a phenomenon without justification of any kind. Something that societies do, always have done. If you are on the side of a group that got the shorter end of the stick then that sucks, if you are part of a group that fears that it could be next, then that sucks, too.
Justifications for ostracism or arguing which progress is good fall more in the realm of philosophers and their lesser cousins politicians. Or an interested public. :)
Ok, I have written a lot and then erased it because everything leads to more and more and more. It is a complicated topic. Let me just say, what I wrote may be seen as you describe it but it wasn't written with that thought in mind. Second language and all...

Why Carano would risk all that was already on the horizon like her own spin off show is baffling. With a little luck she could have been the female "Rock". All gone now. Well, if she finds a great spin doctor. It would have to include some money for science programs for kids, sitting down with transsexuals and visiting Yad Vashem + appropriate speeches at each of these, nice photos. The election thing is tricky, though. Maybe blame everything on confusion and heightened tension and then go for the classic "I'm only Human" defense. If she does that she will be fine. The USA loves a good redemption story.
By the way, what do people know about the Rock? He is a nice guy and that is it. That is the reason that everybody loves him and why he will die beloved, sleeping on a giant pile of money.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 1:13pm (UTC -6)
@Dave in MN

"And frankly, a lot of the time, Booming DOES have a point"

I agree. A lot of the time, she does. Unfortunately, this was not one of those times...

BTW have you read the entire comment in question? Or did you stop at first sentence (which was the thing you praised)?
Booming
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 1:55am (UTC -6)
I think what Omicron wants to hear is that you should not join a lynch mob and follow certain rules of civility?

In the Carano case people see a cancel culture problem but that is really far from certain.
We only have this statement from Lucasfilm:"Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future," a Lucasfilm spokesperson said in a statement. "Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable."

And these off the record quotes:"They have been looking for a reason to fire her for two months, and today was the final straw,” a source with knowledge of Lucasfilm’s thinking tells THR."

And this one:"According to sources, Lucasfilm planned to unveil Carano as the star of her own Disney+ series during a December investor's day presentation but scrapped those plans following her November tweets."

So what apparently broke it for Lucasfilm/Disney was that she joined the voter fraud crowd, the post about Nazis was then just used as a justification to fire her/not renew her contract but the decision was made back in November. We really don't know if any campaign to fire her on social media played any part.
Booming
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:03am (UTC -6)
Ok scratch that. She has made herself unemployable at any major studio/company.
No one will touch her with a ten foot pole after this.

https://www.cnet.com/news/gina-carano-says-she-was-bullied-by-disney/
Yanks
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 7:02am (UTC -6)
Booming.

Come on. What the Ben Shapiro interview and tell me this woman has any malice in her. I don't doubt she and others have been bullied by Disney/Lucasfilm. ... especially anything entity that has Kennedy associated with it.
Booming
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 7:47am (UTC -6)
@Yanks
" I don't doubt she and others have been bullied by Disney/Lucasfilm."
Maybe that is true but that is not the point. She has broken the corporate Omerta. Nobody will employ her after talking like this about her former employer. Somewhat like Josh Trank who also bad mouthed his employer (20 century fox). It is very unlikely that he will ever get a contract from a major studio again. What she said is so much worse. If she is unlucky Lucasfilm will sue her and she will be in courtrooms for years paying millions for lawyers. Some things she said could be seen as libel. If she is really unlucky then Disney will pay people to dig up dirt on her and there is always something. No major studio that is thinking about spending tens if not hundreds of millions to create a new show or franchise will risk employing somebody with that much baggage. Highly unlikely that she will ever recover from this. From now on it is fringe right wing studios, loony documentaries and maybe Christian Entertainment for her.
Jason R.
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 8:32am (UTC -6)
This case actually reminds me more of the Meghan Fox controversy than a traditional "cancel culture" scenario but it has elements of both. As far as cancel culture goes, there are way better examples.
Jason R.
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 8:45am (UTC -6)
Incidentally, I have wondered if major studios should take a more aggressive hands on approach to social media, particularly after the Roseanne Barr fiasco.

As a condition to signing a contract with a major studio, actors should be forced to have their social media accounts registered through software that puts a delay or cooling off period on any post, which then in turn can get vetoed by the studio and blocked before it goes live.

The way I see it this would protect not only the studio but also the actor because if an actor got into trouble, the studio would share culpability for permitting the offending post to go live.

It would eliminate the kind of ambiguities that plague these situations. It would also protect the enormous investments the studios make in these individuals, who can wipe out billions of dollars in a single ill advised tweet, not to mention their own careers!

If I were an actor, I'd want to submit to this. I can't believe no one is doing this or contemplating it.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:19am (UTC -6)
@Booming
"It is more like describing a phenomenon without justification of any kind."

Really?

Let's summarize your latest post, shall we:

1. You've painted one half of humanity as being backwards and racist and governed-by-fear, while painting the other half as being enlightened and progressive and tolerant.
2. You've equated these two groups with the two sides of the political spectrum.
3. You give ridiculous examples for what being "conservative" or "progressive" means, and they always paint the former in a bad light.
4. You constantly say that conservatives being ostracized is "just the way things" are and interwine this claim with rhetoric about "progress" and "being left behind".
5. You always treat the persecution of "those left behind" as "their problem" and a source for "their fear". It never occurs to you that these people are just human as you are, and that their persecution is also your problem.

And then you claim you're not making any moral judgement? That you're just "describing a phenomenon"?

Sorry, but this doesn't fly.

The truth is that you *are* making a moral judgement, and it's a terrifying one. The rhetoric in your latest comments is a classic example of how demonizing and hate-mongering starts.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:33am (UTC -6)
@Jason R.

There is something here that I don't get:

Why should there even be a connection between the stuff that an actor posts on social media and the hiring studio's name?

Actors are not hired for their political acumen. Nor are they hired for being well-rounded people or examples of moral virtue.

Actors are hired to act. If the do *that* badly, then I'd agree that this reflects negatively on the studio that hired them. But why care about their personal and political views? How does this reflect on the studio in any shape or form.

I just don't get it.
Booming
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 10:16am (UTC -6)
@Omicron
Eh, let's not drag this out, ok. I was actually thinking about giving an example of bad progress to make it clearer. I wrote a fairly lengthy text about the change in Roman Republican agriculture from small farms to the Latifundia system which one could argue brought about the downfall of the Roman Republic but then I thought that posting long texts about Roman Agriculture is maybe a little too boring for many and not related to Star Trek. Let's give an easy example for bad progress were a conservative approach, meaning preserving the status quo, is in my humble opinion preferable. Lethal autonomous weapon systems. There is a fairly strong push to give machines more and more control over when to kill and you don't have to watch Terminator to believe that this is a terrible idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_autonomous_weapon

So to go through the list
1. No. What I mean is that if you were pro slavery in 1800 you would not be seen as racist by contemporaries, if you were pro slavery in 1900 it would be very different.
2. Not really. A conservative from today who would go back in time would be a progressive in 1920, very progressive.
3. That is really a matter of opinion. I wasn't defining conservatism or liberalism (the oldest political perspectives in political science) I was making an observation about how societal perceptions of issues change. Some people are for change, some are against it. If change succeeds then some are left behind. I called them conservatives and progressives, you could also call them pro change and anti change if that makes it less contentious.
4. Progressives are ostracized as well. Somebody mentioned the Dixie Chicks. Phil Donahue is another good example. A memo leaked that clearly stated that he was fired for opposing the Iraq war. (Progressive in this case would mean being against war in general)
5. No, I do not. I think it is always a problematic occurrence but it is something that societies have always done. Meaning that it could very well be Human nature to ostracize people. Maybe an extreme form of out group bias and in group favoritism. The Athenians had an official and institutionalized version of "Cancel culture" 2500 years ago.

"The rhetoric in your latest comments is a classic example of how demonizing and hate-mongering starts."
Cool down. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NhIRwCq428&ab_channel=Veritasium
Bob (a different one)
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 10:38am (UTC -6)
I don't watch this show, but I just wanted to chime in to say how great it is that there is FINALLY a place on the internet for people to post their dumbass political takes.
OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 11:09am (UTC -6)
@Booming

I am perfectly cool. I also stand by every word I've said.
Paul M.
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 12:44pm (UTC -6)
Yes Bob, you will fit just fine, better thsn than most actually.
Dave in MN
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:59pm (UTC -6)
@ Bob

I know you're being ironic, but nowadays it's actually not the easy to express certaun opinions on the most popular websites.

And I must point out that (for the most part) people aren't being tribally political. There is a genuine give-and-take here.

That being said, I'm glad to see you've stuck around. New users are always intriguing!

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