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Skupper
Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:49pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@wolfstar

'DS9 and VOY had better special effects two decades ago, whether using model work, CGI or a combination - even early battle scenes done entirely using models (The Die Is Cast, Caretaker) look better than the space scenes we're seeing in Discovery. I don't know why this is.'

I have a theory about this. And it's not just about DIS, but special effects in general, especially when dealing with spaceships and whatnot.

It's because everything has to be flashy and colorful and shiny and glowing all the time now for some reason. Instead of just making a realistic looking ship as in 2001 or TOS or Alien or even Voyager or whatever it may be, everything has to be 'eye-catching' and has to have a billion colorful lights on it, and be some sort of slick reflective something or another, just to show off how awesome CGI is. When it would suit them better to make a ship that looks real instead.

I hate this. I put in the same category as the see through computer screens every single show/movie has now. Boy I hate those. As I've mentioned a couple times before.

Things that look cool aren't always cooler than things that look realistic. Hollywood hasn't caught onto that concept yet.
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skupper
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 10:12pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Ubik

'The reason, I think, that you are having trouble making your point clear is because it's wrong.'

Opinions? Pffftt. But yes, I'm wrong, you're right. The end.
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Skupper
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 6:45pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

I know I said I wouldn't comment anymore, but I have to, and I swear this it the last post about this topic that I'll put to type.

@Paul M.

'Exactly as I said in my previous post. Anyone who "deviates from the norm" has to have a special justification to exist.'

You are either deliberately misreading what I've said, and are a troll, or you are somewhat thickheaded.

I never said that 'those' characters need any sort of justification to exist. I merely said that they should be portrayed better. If Tilly is autistic, then make her character austistic. So far all I've seen is a goofy young woman who likes to party and can give good advice sometimes. I've known autistic people, and I may be one myself for all I know, and none of them are the good time fun girl who gives advice to everyone. If you want to put an autistic or neurodivergent person or whatever you want to call it into the show, at least do it realistically, instead of just putting one in for the 'token' factor.

And I've already said about 10 times why the gay couple's relationship didn't work for me, so I won't even get into that again.

Also I want to make something clear. I don't care who is on a show. Or what their background is. I've said that many times. Because I believe it, and because that's what we are supposed to do right? Color, and sex, and race, etc. are all not supposed to matter. Right? But small minded people like you take something as innocuous as DIS and make it about color, and sex, and race, etc. You turn the world into a hateful place. I want to watch a show about space. You want to see a show about diversity and acceptance and want to make sure I like the gay characters, and don't disrespect the autistic ones, and god forbid I say anything against the black female lead! OH MY! I just wanted a new Star Trek show. This stupid nonsense about diversity is exactly what I feared would happen, and it did. No matter how many times someone like me explains their position (and I thought I did it reasonably well), it's still impossible to criticize a show that includes 'minorities', without somehow instilling undeserved hatred in people, even though your position may be well thought out and fairly logical. Because logic to some people means only opinion and bile and hate, no matter what the other person says.
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Skupper
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 5:42pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

I see I have to defend myself forever apparently, since no one can seem to grasp what I say the first, second, or third time I say it. I fault myself for this, for not being as eloquent as I wish I were.

Nowhere in the first 4 episodes was it shown that Stamets was gay. Fine. So what. But in the end of the 5th episode, all of a sudden we show him brushing his teeth with Culber. So that was a surprise. I would have said the same thing if it were Tilly and Lorca brushing their teeth together. It would have been a total surprise to everyone. Or Saru and Mike. Or whatever 2 people on the ship you want. It was a stupid way to introduce a relationship, and to me it just screamed out 'Look what we did!!!'. I would much rather they had had a scene or 2 with Stamets visiting Culber in sick bay and talking about having dinner or something. Like any other relationship would have probably been shown. To me it totally seemed as though they made it out to be some big reveal. And that's dumb storytelling. Gay or not. So it was clunky and stupid.

And as far as Tilly goes, yes, she has a lot of potential for differing stories, but what has she been so far? The goofy girl with occasional wisdom, that acts silly. That isn't a character. That's a cliche. And making her someone with a mental disability of some kind doesn't really define her character in any way. An autistic person was written in for this character, when it could have been literally anyone else.

If you want to include these 'types' of characters, make them believable. Make them real. Not the end point of a 5 episode joke, with 'gotcha!' at the end. Or a generic best friend character that is no different than any other young woman might be.

That's what I've been saying all along. I don't have a problem with the characters, just how they have been shown onscreen. And to me it hasn't been a very flattering representation of them, or anyone else for that matter. Everyone on Discovery seems to be an ass.

Anyway. I'm not talking about this subject anymore. Others can do whatever they want obviously.

LLAP
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Skupper
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 3:55pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

I guess I can say this for what is the third(?) time I think.

'I just hated the way they presented it here [that Stamets was gay]. In the first 4 episodes, it was sort of hinted at a little in various ways, and then in this episode, at the end, it seemed like they went "Hah! See! They really ARE gay! Did you figure it out?! And if you didn't, then what a surprise!". That to me was sort of insulting.'

They did 'hint' at it before then. But that's lame. Just show it or don't. Don't make it a reveal in the end of an episode as a surpise revelation. That's stupid. If that scene had been in the first episode or two I wouldn't care. But as they did it, it was lame.
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Skupper
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 3:04pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

I will hopefully try to deal with all the feedback about my posts so far. If I miss something, forgive me.

I'll reiterate again this one point. I could care less what 'type' of characters are on the show. I've given several examples here in this thread and others why it doesn't matter to me. The problem I have with DIS is the presention of those characters.

They are clunkily presented, meaning that their introduction isn't natural. I'll quote from a previous post of mine from episode 5.

'I just hated the way they presented it here [that Stamets was gay]. In the first 4 episodes, it was sort of hinted at a little in various ways, and then in this episode, at the end, it seemed like they went "Hah! See! They really ARE gay! Did you figure it out?! And if you didn't, then what a surprise!". That to me was sort of insulting.'

If it was a normal thing on board, why save it for the final act of episode 5, in sort of a surprise ending type of thing? If they wanted to have a gay character or two, fine, but why present it that way? It smacks of gimmickry. There is no need to have a surprise in episode 5 about what was really going on. Just have them naturally introduced like any other character on the show.

Lorca, the captain, being a straight white male could very well have been a choice of ticking off boxes. The last 3 captains have been a white male, a white female, and a black male. Maybe it was time for another white male? I don't know, but at least he was introduced as a natural element of the show. Just as the asian woman captain was. She may have also been a tick box, but I accepted her as she was, just like Lorca. Neither of them seem forced upon the viewer. So no problems with either of them for me.

Tilly for some reason, just seems to be an add-on character. Autism or not. A character there only to be the 'autistic one', and that's it.

I specifically want to address this though...

@Paul M.

'News flash guys: maybe you're not as tolerant as you think.'

Because I dislike how certain characters are introduced or portrayed doesn't make me intolerant. In fact I believe it's quite the opposite. The fact that you don't care, is more indicitive of your own ignorance, rather than mine. I actually care how people of different backgrounds are treated in the show. All that seems to matter to you is that they exist. I believe that many of these characters were created to fill quotas, and nothing more. If you are willing to accept characters like that, so be it. I want something more of them. I want them to have a reason to exist on the show, and to be integral parts of it. Having a gay person or an autistic person on a show just to make it look good is ridiculous.

Like I said earlier, I'm not so sure about Mike, though there is very little doubt in my mind that she was also the product of another one of those meetings. But she fits in fine and seems a natural addition to the DIS universe, (other than being a shitty actress that is), so I have no problem with her.

I would rather have seen Mike and Saru get together than Mike and Ash, so does that make me a progressive or a racist or something? IDK. All these terms of hatred are always thrown around whenever anyone criticizes anything, so I don't even know anymore.

Watch the show. If you think it portrays and introduces certain types of people in a positive manner, bully for you. If you think it doesn't, then bully for you too, but everyone has their own opinion of how to portray or represent a certain group of people. And so far I think DIS has fallen a bit short in how it portrays some of those groups.

And I hate no one. Except maybe my ex-wife, but even that is questionable. :D
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Skupper
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 11:33am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

I didn't really want to get off on this tangent, but since I already did, I may as well continue.

@ben sisko

“DIS judged people by their color, sexual orientation, etc. before they even started”

'What are you even talking about? When does the show ever make that sort of message? The only judgmental messages along those lines I’ve seen are coming from the fan base, and usually from daftly-named trolls.'

If you think that the creators of DIS didn't purposely sit down in a meeting and discuss what 'types' of characters they should have on the show, you are living in a fantasy land. I guarantee you they deliberately added a gay couple, and an autistic crewperson, and possibly even Mike, just to try to show how 'sensitive' they are to the current social attitudes. I don't have a problem with that, per se, just that they did it so clunkily and obviously, and that it detracts from the show. Like making Sulu gay in the Abram's movies. No reason to do that, no reason not to either really, and it was done subtley, but it was done only to say they did it. It had no other purpose.

As I've said in another post, the show 'Modern Family' has a gay couple, and I could care less. It works fine there. I like them. They seem like a real couple dealing with real issues, and that they are gay is integral to the story a lot of the time. On DIS it's quite apparent it was done only so they could say 'Look! A gay couple on a Star Trek series! See! We're in touch with the public! Aren't we tolerant and awesome?' That is the message they are sending, and that, I think, is a bad message.
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Skupper
Sat, Nov 11, 2017, 5:03am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Alexandrea

'Why does representation matter in television, you're asking?...'

I ask that because it shouldn't matter. No one should create a show, and think 'Are there enough black people? Let's add another one.' or 'Do we have a gay character? Toss a couple of those in there.' or 'Let's see, who did we leave out? Oh yeah! A neurodivergent character. Put one of those in too'.

TOS had diversity, yes, because it was trying to show that in the future, all races and nationalities etc. all worked together for the benefit of everyone. The characters existed to illustrate that point. They didn't include certain characters just to fit some preordained formula.

I think DIS has at least some of the characters it has, not to illustrate some higher ideal, but to fill a quota that they set forth beforehand.

The show 'Alphas', which I quite liked, but apparently not many other people did, had an autistic character on it, Gary, and I thought nothing of it. He seemed a natural fit to the show, and was written and portrayed well, and was probably my favorite character. On DIS, Tilly seems shoehorned in, just so they can say they have an autistic person on the show, and her character seems to be out of place in some way I can't put my finger on, and I don't like her much at all because of that. Every time I see her, I think to myself 'there is the autistic girl they put in the show'.

People having someone similar to themselves on a television show, so they can have role models and be represented, is a good thing. But not when it's forced in, to the detriment of the show as a whole, and that character in particular.

MLK also said 'I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.'

DIS judged people by their color, sexual orientation, etc. before they even started and forgot to make the content of their characters interesting or entertaining.
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Skupper
Fri, Nov 10, 2017, 10:53pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

I kept typing Culbert when it's Culber. :P
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Skupper
Fri, Nov 10, 2017, 10:48pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Jammer

'There's a brief subplot involving Stamets' mood turning sour and his admission to Tilly that the continued exposure to the spore drive is taking its toll....Stamets is keeping this a secret and foregoing treatment because he doesn't want Culber to have knowledge about his genetically altered condition, which he would surely help cover up. Even though I wonder how Starfleet doesn't have questions about Discovery's spore drive operation in the tardigrade's absence (and Stamets' genetic enhancement seems like an awfully open secret)'

Starfleet knows about Stamet's genetic enhancements, or at least the dead(?) Admiral Cornwell did, and so I assume most of the higher ups, at least, knew. Also most of the Discovery crew does as well. What Stamets was worried about was revealing to the doctor that running the spore drive is adversely affecting him, mentally. If Stamets revealed that, Dr. Culbert would have to report that fact, and then Starfleet would take Stamets off of Discovery, separating the two of them. Or if he tells the doc, and Culbert doesn't report it, and Starfleet finds out how it's affecting him, then Culbert would get into trouble. So Stamets doesn't want to reveal that the spore drive is messing with his brain, to avoid hurting Culbert, his boyfriend.
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Skupper
Thu, Nov 9, 2017, 7:43am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Yanks

'I think it's just like the "niners" hating Voyager or Enterprise. No, they aren't DS9, but they are trek and you need to accept them for what they are and move on.'

Since I'm here already, I thought I would comment on this. I'm not a 'niner'. I liked DS9 when it was first on, but on my second viewing I found it to be sort of lame. Not so good, in other words. I think DS9 is mediocre, and I really hate Voyager, and I really like Enterprise. I don't know what that makes me exactly.

I also can't say whether having DIS be an episodic show or arcing storyline is good or bad on it's face. So far it's been lackluster and not what I expected it to be, but I don't attribute that to it's continuing story, I put all the blame on the writers and producers. It could have been so much better. OMG. So much better. I was hoping and expecting so much. Too much maybe. But it is what it is.

Here's hoping that future seasons will be better. :D
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Skupper
Thu, Nov 9, 2017, 7:08am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Yair

''m not going to hijack this board, but the "I'm tired of commenting, so let me argue my case, but please don't make any counter-arguments" shtick is annoying. If you want to close the argument, do so, but don't use it as an excuse to have the last word and stop the other fellow from replying.'

No one said you can't make counter arguments, I only said I didn't want to argue about it any longer, so I wouldn't post about that topic anymore. I made it clear in my posts what I thought. You may be right, I may be right, who knows?, and if you disagree, or anyone else does, and want to say something different, that's fine. No one is stopping you. It's not like we can control the internet, no matter how much some of us may want to. :D

'You understand how large a quadrant is, right?'

Well, yes and no. lol. I wasn't trying to say that literally everyone in the quadrant knows of Mike. I was just making a point. Lots of people knew of her. That's all.
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Skupper
Thu, Nov 9, 2017, 3:12am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Hmmm...

I would say she was widely well known across the quadrant at least. That is what was hinted at, if not explicity shown on the show. She was the first Starfleet officer to be convicted of mutiny. That is a big deal. It wasn't hidden as you seem to indicate. It was a well known fact as far as I can tell from the show.

But I also don't want to debate it anymore. Maybe someone else can clarify it better than we can.
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Skupper
Thu, Nov 9, 2017, 2:52am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

I disagree, I think she was well known all over the Federation. But what do I know?

But if she wasn't well known, then how did all of those people find out about her?

And why does it seem like such a big deal to you whether she was or wasn't?
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Skupper
Thu, Nov 9, 2017, 2:19am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Yair

"she comes out of prison with enough fame that a vast portion of the population hates her and is immediately aware of what she did "

Absolutely no evidence for that. I strongly doubt most non-Starfleet personnel are even aware of her history, much less 'hate' her. And every Starfleet personnel is required to interact with her based on her current position on Discovery.

In the third episode, she was made out to be an enemy of Starfleet, and that everyone knew who she was, the prisoners on board her ship and basically everyone on Discovery. And in another episode (not sure which one, maybe the same one), Tilley even mentions that the only Mike Burnham she knows is the the one that betrayed Starfleet. So everyone in Starfleet certainly knew of her, if not everyone in the Federation. She was, after all, the first person to commit mutiny.
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Skupper
Thu, Nov 9, 2017, 12:56am (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Alexandrea

'I'm thrilled to have Black, Pakistani, non-straight, and neurodivergent characters on a show with a pretty small main cast.'

Sorry to single you out, but you were the last to respond, so why does it matter to you what the cast's makeup is? I honestly don't understand why it matters.

To me all that matters is that the show is entertaining and well written, and doesn't have too many plot holes, etc.

What difference does it make what nationalities or whatever the characters are?

BTW, that's the first time I've ever heard the term 'neurodivergent'. Is that another new category of people that needs to be included in every TV show now for some reason I don't understand?

DIS is a show about the future. Who knows what types of people will be there? To judge it by how it represents modern day America is pretty silly if you ask me.
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Skupper
Wed, Nov 8, 2017, 11:35pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

All this talk of 'diversity' I find to be sort of silly.

Maybe it's sort of important for Star Trek in some way, I don't know. I don't see why, if it is. I don't see why it matters.

I don't care if the entire crew is muslims, or blacks, or autistic people, or gays, or whites, or aliens or whatever. They could all be black autistic gay white muslim aliens for all I care.

All I care about is if the show is good, and so far it isn't really.

It's ok, but that's about it. Take some Star Trek stuff, mix it in with modern CGI and other cool tech stuff, and a war, and run with it. That's as far as the producers got I think. No real thought put into it beyond that.
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Skupper
Mon, Nov 6, 2017, 10:40pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

FYI, the actual runtime of this episode is 37:15 after you discount the opening 'previously on...' and the beginning and end credits and the preview of the next episode.

The last episode was 43:20. So over 6 minutes longer.
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Skupper
Mon, Nov 6, 2017, 2:21pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

The writer's were lazy if you ask me. They needed a way for Starfleet to detect ships. What's one way we do that here on earth? Sonar. That uses sound. So an alien planet that makes sound. The end. No more thought put into it than that.
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Skupper
Mon, Nov 6, 2017, 2:17pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

@Chrome

'That's not how active sonar works. Active sonar emits pulses or sounds and then listens for echos. That kind of sonar can detect not only other ships, but radio silent objects like rocks and hazardous debris. There's no reason I can think of why it couldn't detect a cloaked ship (assuming it works in space, which, in this case it apparently does).'

I realize how sonar works, but that doesn't explain anything.

The whole planet creates a sound, that they transmit out into space through the antenna, so that is where they get the idea of sonar from, but sound doesn't travel through space. So how would it work? Let's see what the show says.

MIKE: ...It is Starfleet's plan to modify the electromagnetic frequency of Pahvo's signal and harness it as a form of sonar that can detect the cloaked Klingon vessels decimating our fleet, make them visible to our sensors, and turn the tide of war in our favor.

And later on they say they should be able to detect cloaked ships now, but that the music is gone and replaced with an elecromagnetic wave, so it isn't working.

So were the Phavans using the antenna to broadcast music through an electromagnetic frequency? Like AM radio? And Starfleet was going to somehow modify it to detect cloaked ships? But if they already knew the frequency and how to modify it then what do they need the planet for? Is the music super special music that detects cloaked ships or what? Why would it? If so, how does Starfleet know that? And how would they know how to modify it to work on Klingon cloaks in the first place? All that makes no sense.


I was also thinking about the Ash/Voq thing, and if Ash is Voq (which I'm almost certain he is), he must have been altered to look human, and that could be how they somehow end up explaining why Klingons basically look human 10 years from now (if they ever bother with that, that is). Maybe he went through some sort of genetic alteration to change his appearance and it spreads throughout the empire like a virus or some such thing. Though they already explained why they look human on ENT in a similar way, so why they look like they do now doesn't make much sense in the first place. I'm just fishing here. :)
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Skupper
Sun, Nov 5, 2017, 11:12pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Also at the beginning they had to transport 30km away from the antenna because it created too much interference, yet at the end they transport standing right next to it. Just thought I'd mention that. :D
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Skupper
Sun, Nov 5, 2017, 9:44pm (UTC -5) | 🔗
Re: DSC S1: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

These aliens on Pahvo have been trying to contact someone 'since the beginning of their existence', and even built a giant antenna to broadcast the sound of their planet into space, and yet this is the first time anyone in history has ever heard it and showed up? Maybe they've only existed for a week or so.

Since Starfleet had never been there how did they know there was a giant antenna, and what makes them think it would ever be able to decloak ships? And btw, how would it decloak them anyhow? If Starfleet knows what signal or frequency or whatever it is that decloaks Klingon ships, why do they need this planet? Why not just have their ships send out the signal themselves? How did they integrate their Starfleet technology with a tree? I don't understand any of this Pahvo stuff.

And now we see that Saru is insanely strong and fast. And also that he broke about 50 rules and regulations, assaulted fellow officers, and nearly ruined their entire mission, because he wanted to stay on the planet, but he's not going to get punished in any way I guess. He himself said at the end that it was him doing it, just because he finally felt unafraid for the first time. It wasn't mind control or anything, only him wanting to stay.

2 1/2 stars.
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