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Peter G.
Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 4:27pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@ Omicron,

"Because I've been wrecking my brains on this for three months now"

Freudian slip, I think you meant "wracking" :)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 3:23pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming
"I'm not sure what "this" is. I have written several papers about the USA."

"This" means actual reality.

Unfortunately, given the stuff you've written here on the subject so far, understanding reality does not seem to be your strong suit.

Not really surprising, for a person who believes that writing academic papers on a country makes him more knowledgeable then the people who actually live there...
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 3:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@James White
"It's why I continuously harp on people for bitching about silly things in ST when the world is on fire."

Mind telling us what we should do instead?

I'm serious. This isn't the first time you've said this. You seem to imply that we are being irresponsible and that we should be doing something active about the situation.

So I'm asking you straight out: What, exactly, is it that you expect the people here to do? If you have any useful ideas in this area, I'll be very interested in hearing them.

Because I've been wrecking my brains on this for three months now, and I came up empty-handed. The situation sucks, but right now I see no alternative to sitting tight and waiting it out.

At any rate, while we are waiting it out, we might as well continue with our lives. And if we're on a Star Trek discussion board, we might as well talk about Star Trek.

Besides, the current state of Star Trek is closely related to the current state of the world. You're not seriously suggesting that we stop talking about what TPTB are doing to Star Trek, are you?
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Peteiet
Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 12:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: By Any Other Name

@ ChomeO,

"I knew what the phrase meant in its original context but I was struggling trying to fit it into this episode."

Fair enough, I just wanted to make sure.
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Peter G.
Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 11:23am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: By Any Other Name

@ Chrome,

I suspect the title implies that you can call a thing anything you like, but it is what it is. When taking the human form, you could call them Kelvins but they *were* humans, and this was their weakness.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" essentially says that Romeo would be just as good as he is if he were called something else, i.e. not called Montague. Changing his name would not alter any of his essential qualities, but would remove the need to call him enemy.

I suppose we could look even deeper into this meaning and infer that perhaps the Kelvins could have come to see humans as allies or friends if they had ceased to differentiate based on "your race" and "our race". The focus on the name of the species (i.e. their differing origins) would seem to be the only reason to alienate the alien. I'm not really sure if the episode puts any focus on that, although it is a Trek message.
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P'kard
Sun, May 31, 2020, 10:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Aquiel

Indiana Jones Last Crusade is on tonight so #Mom Rewatch2020 is postponed for this episode as it is so bad. I literally told my mom to keep watching this movie instead
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Occuprice
Sun, May 31, 2020, 7:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S3: A Day in the Life

Forgettable episode with some cringey moments and also some really good ones— which I had forgotten about and enjoyed anew! It’s not actually the “worst episode in the show” that I thought it was— it just shares that black market, and maybe the passage And deadlock. The episode annoys me more than black market, but it also has some wonderful moments that black market did not (adama roslin, helo moving away from hot dog and his rash)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, May 31, 2020, 10:35am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming

Looks like the currently fashionable cynicism has stuck to you too...

I don't like Elon Musk either (to put it mildly) but this doesn't change the fact that today is a big day for space enthusiasts all over the world.

The Flacon 9/Dragon combination isn't just "a new bus". It's a technology that's far beyond anything else we currently have, both in terms of cost and versatility. It's the first step towards returning to the moon and beyond.

You know, for a person so desperate for some positivity in their life, you sure are bent to look at the negative side of things...
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Sleeper Agent
Sun, May 31, 2020, 2:46am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: The Way to Eden

Would have given it three stars if it wasn't for Uhura's complete absence.
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Top Hat
Sat, May 30, 2020, 10:12am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Rascals

I wish they would've somehow written in a clever trap that the Ferengi use to disable the Enterprise. It would've been nice for the Ferengi to actually demonstrate their sneaky side, and the Enterprise losing a firefight to them is simply pathetic. But there are also many other episodes where the Enterprise barely seems to be trying in these combat situations... too much yelling "Damage report" and not enough yelling "Fire all weapons!" or, for that matter, "Warp away!"
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Peter G.
Sat, May 30, 2020, 10:06am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Rascals

Hey, I like The Game!
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Occuprice
Fri, May 29, 2020, 11:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S3: The Woman King

Front of the line as far as 2.5 star filler/breather/bottle shows go. I enjoyed the rewatch better than when it aired, and I appreciate the simple and clear focus on the main storyline—- it isn’t overbaked, it doesn’t do anything particularly wrong, and it is kind of refreshing to focus on Helo. No retroactive backstory. But, some things could use a bit of nuance, and the heightened prejudice against sagitarrons seemed a little excessive based on what we have seen so far.

Like Jammer, I do really like how Helo’s predicament is very much the result of choices he has made. Ultimately, nothing really wrong here—- it’s just not quite what I watch battlestar for, and easily forgettable in a pleasant way. It’s the only episode on this current rewath where I went into it completely forgetting what happens, other than “helo gets on a mission with civilians on galactica.”— and I have seen the episode at least twice previously,
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Peter G.
Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:41pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S6: Honor Among Thieves

@ Dan W,

"I honestly don't understand why they would ask the Chief of Operations of Deep Space 9, which is the most important station in the quadrant, to do an undercover assignment. You're telling me no one from the Orion Syndicate has been to DS9?"

Because O'Brien must be tortured? It's like a tradition, man.

"I am honestly surprised the Vorta didn't recognise O'Brien, you'd think the Dominion would have profiles on DS9's senior staff, no?"

Maybe the Vorta did recognize him and was enjoying watching O'Brien's seasonal flogging?
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Top Hat
Fri, May 29, 2020, 2:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: Nor the Battle to the Strong

It's later, in "By Inferno's Light," that Gowron reinstates the Khitomer Accords. "Apocalypse Rising" ends with a bit of milder detente, but the conflict is still on.
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Peter G.
Fri, May 29, 2020, 10:15am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: Return to Tomorrow

"It's worth mentioning since others commented on the disappointing ending that there was a controversy with this episode's writer John Dugan, a Catholic. He wanted Sargon and Thalassa to live on in the end as spirits without bodies, which is how he ended it in the original script. Roddenbery changed it so the two would simply fade into oblivion."

What a petty argument? Are both of them under the assumption that Kirk is a wizard and can "just tell" when a person dies whether their spirit 'goes on' or fades into nothing? I don't even know what it means to argue about this point. Catholics already believe that we have an afterlife *and* that you see nothing special when someone dies. Haha, what a dumb thing to fight about. And actually, the idea of disembodied human spirits floating around isn't even a Christian concept afaik. Or if it is one it's one of those quasi-pagan superstitious beliefs they had been in the 1500's when the old religions were still bound up with the new in many places.
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JPaul
Thu, May 28, 2020, 2:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

"And again, the blatant plagiarism of Mass Effect 3’s story endgame that they thought no one would notice. "

Read a ton of comments here, and this was the only one I saw to reference this. I haven't played Mass Effect myself, but people who have are saying the plot of this show is heavily derivative of it, there seem to be a lot of smoking gun similarities that are hard to ignore.

Then we can look at Star Trek: Discovery and realize that many aspects of season 1 are ripped off from the computer game Tardigrades, including a number of characters that look visually similar (the characters of Michael Burnham, Paul Stamets, Hugh Culber, Sylvia Tilly), to say nothing of the use of a giant Tardigrade that can travel through space instantaneously.

It's really surprising to me that shows with the kind of budgets Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard have would need to resort to this kind of copying, it certainly isn't something I'd find indicative of high quality writing.
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Peter G.
Wed, May 27, 2020, 11:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: A Private Little War

Thanks Jay Marks!
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, May 27, 2020, 8:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@James White
"...decided that success would be exclusively defined by immediate viewership."

You know what's the saddest part is?

If CBS had actually done what's needed to maximize immediate viewership, Star Trek would have been in far better shape.

First step would be to realize that when you have a Star Trek show that's hidden behind a paywall, the vast majority of your viewers are going to be Trek fans. Trek fans of many different types and personalities and ages and needs... but Trek fans nevertheless. So it makes little point to pander to any other demographic.

Seems like CBS realized this when they first conceived ST:P, because they've found the PERFECT pitch to hook Trekkies with: The legendary Patrick Stewart portraying the even more legendary Jean Luc Picard.

So far so good. That's "shut up and take my money!" material, right there.

But then, unfortunately, they seemingly forgot who their target audience is. In the end, there is very little in ST:P that is even remotely aimed at Trek fans.

The one big exception is the nostalgia factor. CBS got that part right (at least from a business perspective). There's a reason why "Nepenthe" is the most well-received episode of ST:P. There's also a reason why Jammer was willing to forgive ten hours of nonsense when the endpoint was a touching scene between Picard and Data. Most of us love this stuff.

The problem is that you can't base an entire season on nostalgia, even with Picard as your main character. That's why we have all the cheesy action scenes, the mcguffins, the violence, the torture porn, the mystery boxes, the nonsensical plot... and the fact is that all these were aimed at a mainstream audience THAT DOESN'T EVEN WATCH THE SHOW.

The percentage of actual viewers of ST:P who think these things are good is tiny. Even among the fiercest defenders of the show, you are not going to find many who argue that these things make the show *better*.

In short:

If CBS had seriously tried to reach the goal of maximizing immediate viewership, they would have created a much better show. And then we would not be sitting here, arguing with one other whether the show is good or bad.

Instead, we would be sitting side by side, enjoying a thoughtful well-written story worthy of Picard's iconic legacy. A show that gives this beloved character the proper farewell he deserves.
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Occuprice
Wed, May 27, 2020, 6:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: BSG S3: The Passage

2 stars seems right.

One point that just made me roll my eyes was Starbuck suggesting Kat may have unwittingly helped cylons get to the colonies. After Hero, where I didn't care for the retroactive attempt to saddle Adama with guilt for a possible role in the cylon attack, I just want to shout at the writes "STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN". Retroactive guilt ties to this big event that is a lot of plot behind us. Unnecessary, don't believe it, don't appreciate it.

I'd probably be more okay with it in this episode of Hero hadn't just made a big deal about it. It's left more in a gray area of "how can you be sure you didn't" and the stakes involved were less. But it still felt so manufactured (her whole backstory did).

Other quibble: these people sure are getting fucked up from radiation with no lasting consequences.
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Peter G.
Wed, May 27, 2020, 1:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: A Private Little War

@ Chrome,

"The PD doesn't apply here because the Klingons already messed with the natural development of the people. Kirk's solution is supposed to correct that interference."

I'm citing the PD because I think the spirit of the PD is what's in play here - to give them a chance at a normal development, or as close to one as is possible at this point. TOS did more actually than the later series did to not only spell out the PD, but also to spell out that as a law it requires on-the-fly interpretation and that it's never black and white (which on TNG they often make it). A Captain is uniquely in the position to determine the best way to maintain its spirit when the letter of it is no longer possible (see A Piece of the Action for another example of a zany way to try to follow the spirit of the law). I brought it up because this is a viable alternative as a theory for why Kirk helps, as opposed to the more realpolitik interpretation that the Federation was being just like the U.S. in the Cold War.

"But as the episode discusses, it seems likely to lead to escalation and ramped up interference by Starfleet. Maybe in the Star Trek universe, escalation never happens and the Klingons back down, but in the parallel real world conflict *this episode mentions specifically* that wasn't the case."

I agree that the prognosis doesn't look good for paradise on this planet. The bottom line is that the Klingons ruined it, and the only thing left to do is salvage whatever scraps of it remain. The reason I keep mentioning the friendship is that I think it demonstrates that there can be reasons for arming a people other than to manipulate them into your own private conflicts. It might well be possible to do 'cold war type stuff' but in a spirit of friendship, depending on context. The best Kirk could do here to maintain balance was a least of evils choice, no question about that. My only contention is that I don't think it was necessarily an error, nor does it have to be seen as done for the purpose of having a proxy war against the Klingons.
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Peter G.
Wed, May 27, 2020, 12:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Relics

@ Jason R.,

Hah! At least with that one I could believe it's a result of false boasting on their part.
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Top Hat
Wed, May 27, 2020, 12:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Little Green Men

And this is a small private craft rather than a heavily armed warship such as TNG initially feautred.
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Peter G.
Wed, May 27, 2020, 12:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Relics

@ Jason R.,

The Doomsday device was also made of neutronium!
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Peter G.
Wed, May 27, 2020, 12:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: A Private Little War

@ Chrome,

I might have to re-watch for tone, but I don't recall ever getting the impression that we're meant to feel that Kirk made a mistake at the end. I don't think he was happy to have to intervene in this manner, but I don't recall anything indicating any awareness that he was making an error.

"It's not until Klingon interference is confirmed that Kirk is forced to get involved as a matter of duty. This makes it look like Kirk's interests are in line with Starfleet's and the burden he has to bear is for Starfleet's cause - i.e. winning or maintaining balance against the Klingons."

But I think this is a Prime Directive thing. He would have let them kill each other under normal circumstances due to the PD. What changes is that the Klingons interfere on one side. Technically that should not alter the Fed position that intervening is a breach of the PD; I don't think the PD has 'unless' clauses. So I suppose it's my interpretation that Kirk's personal friendship is what pushes him over the edge and makes him feel that it's just unacceptable to follow the letter of the law and let his friend's people die due to Klingon interference. Kirk's solution seems to me like the best he can do to re-establish non-interference. In effect, to try to match and therefore undo the Klingon interference in this culture. But I don't think it's to serve Starfleet's agenda in defeating Klingons; I think it's to fix a PD violation, even though technically it was the Klingons who violated it. I think the spirit of arming both sides is something like recognizing that what happened is not fair, and not representative of letting a culture evolve on its own. He needed to arm Tyree's side to give them a chance to settle their cultural dispute on their own terms. I see it as trying to re-establish normal cultural development there.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, May 27, 2020, 11:17am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Nolan
"(And less of the comments on others comments about comments on comments ;-P)"

I just have to comment on this.

Does this make my comment "a comment about a comment on comments on other comments about comments on comments"? ;-P

"Is a media franchise capable of having a culture? A pop culture sub-culture, if you will? Is adherance to that established culture important? Or does distancing from it allow "This isn't X" to be a valid argument? Or is that merely a fandom practice that has no bearing on a final produce, its success or failure, and something creators should ignore?"

These are indeed interesting questions, and I don't pretend to know the answers.

But I think you're ignoring a very important consideration here: What did the original creator of the franchise want? Should that have relevance as well?

Star Trek was created with a very specific vision in mind: To show us a better humanity and give us hope for the future. This fact isn't the invention of some geek culture. It was mentioned countless of times in Roddenberry's own words.

Leaving everything else aside, doesn't this vision deserve to be protected? At least to some extent?

We should also remember that we aren't just talking about some crazy caprice here. It's not like Roddenberry had an obsession to broccoli and the color purple. We are talking about a genuinely important, hopeful, positive vision for the future.

Is it okay for the current IP owners to just throw all this away as they please? I don't think so. Nor do I think that the fans who feel betrayed and/or angry are "overreacting". This *is* a big deal and it should be treated as such.

@Eamon
"DS9 was vastly different to them both, but again, the changes to the universe and show culture happened because of good storytelling. I mostly blame Ron Moore for this, but hey, he had a vision for a slightly less perfect Federation."

DS9 is really a borderline case.

On the one hand, they made a very real effort to respect everything that came before.

On the other hand, it *did* become increasingly dark and warlike, to the point where the question "is DS9 still Trek?" was a valid one.

I know of some Trekkies who can't accept DS9 as Star Trek because of this. I get where they are coming from, even though I do not share their opinion. This is a grey area where a variety of individual opinions can make sense.

With the new shows, however, the situation is quite clear cut. If you removed the words "Star Trek" from the title and changed a few iconic names, the result would be simply UNRECOGNIZABLE as Star Trek.

Some people don't mind this. Others are positively excited by these changes. Both reactions are perfectly fine. To each his own.

The problem begins when people are denying that these massive changes are even taking place. No, there is no precedent for this kind of complete overhaul in the history of Star Trek. Anybody who says otherwise is either lying or delusional.
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