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Re: DSC S2: General Discussion
Rift Aview,
But, but, ... Michael said...
"No. We will not take shortcuts on the path to righteousness."
lol
Rift Aview,
But, but, ... Michael said...
"No. We will not take shortcuts on the path to righteousness."
lol
Re: TNG S6: Chain of Command, Part I
Put me firmly in the anti-Jellico camp. I do think he's a great character, he's just a bad person. I'm totally with Riker in telling him off, he's little more than a posturing alpha dog. I never even realized until recently that his strict formality of command while also calling officers by their first name is yet another way to belittle them.
All this doesn't excuse Riker's behavior. Regarding the shift rotation, yes he should've just done it. Granted he wasn't given a direct order, Jellico just said "I'd like to change that to four starting tonight," and Riker was just about to explain the situation, but Jellico beat him to the punch and then went all "I'm the captain" on him. I don't see any real problem with changing the shift rotation from three to four, assuming they have the staff available to fill out the extra slot (maybe they don't?), but doing so in such a hurried manner is going to wipe out any benefits that come from having shorter shifts. After all, if it takes weeks for people to recover from the daylight saving time change, imagine what this would do. Jellico seems to be sabotaging his own goals just to leave his footprint on the ship. I also don't buy that the Enterprise needed a major shakeup. De-prioritizing scientific endeavors is one thing, but just because Jellico says things are too comfortable or "not good enough" that doesn't mean it's true. He may believe it's true, but it's just more of him being domineering.
I wonder how many of the pro-Jellico people who consider the crew to be whiny pedants have ever had a boss, teacher, or even CO like Jellico. He had so many opportunities to smooth over his orders and he didn't take a single one. "Then you'd better get to it, Geordi. Looks like you have some work to do," is such an overtly condescending statement that would push many people, myself included, to the point of "f--- you, I'm done, bye." A simple "I know this is difficult, but we have to work together and make do with what we can" is so much better, even if it is just lip service, than, "haha sucks to be you, get it done."
I'd like to steal a quote from Saito S at the Trek BBS that illustrates how Jellico is not being reasonable:
"Later, Geordi complains to Riker about what Jelico expects of him. Not only has he been told to realign the warp coils in two days (a previous scene established that this task alone was pushing the envelope of what was doable and would require the entire Engineering staff to work overtime), but ON TOP of that, he has to juggle all of his duty rosters due to the shift changes and 'completely reroute half the power systems on this ship'. And then, after being given a list of tasks that would push his department to its limits as it is with the time allotted and personnel available, he loses a third of his staff because Jelico has transferred them to security! LaForge specifically says he doesn't mind changes and doesn't mind hard work, but he isn't being given the time and personnel necessary to effect the changes or do the work. That attitude is entirely reasonable, and we can rely on Geordi's assessment of the situation regarding his department as being generally correct - after all, he's been established through 4+ years of TNG at this point to be an extremely competent chief engineer. Some - certainly not all, but some - of Jelico's demands were unreasonable, because some of them went beyond simply being hard or changing their routine, and were well into 'you're nearly asking the impossible here' territory. That's what LaForge is telling Riker, and that's what that scene is telling us. Jelico can hardly be held blameless for the troubles that went on during this episode. "
Again, if he really wants to be ready for battle, all of this needless change and antagonizing only serves to throw the crew off-balance. Are those engineers really going to be effective security officers? If they are, what's their purpose anyway? Are they expecting to be boarded? Even if Jellico was the nicest captain ever, all this would still lead to the crew not functioning at their best, putting the mission in jeopardy.
Put me firmly in the anti-Jellico camp. I do think he's a great character, he's just a bad person. I'm totally with Riker in telling him off, he's little more than a posturing alpha dog. I never even realized until recently that his strict formality of command while also calling officers by their first name is yet another way to belittle them.
All this doesn't excuse Riker's behavior. Regarding the shift rotation, yes he should've just done it. Granted he wasn't given a direct order, Jellico just said "I'd like to change that to four starting tonight," and Riker was just about to explain the situation, but Jellico beat him to the punch and then went all "I'm the captain" on him. I don't see any real problem with changing the shift rotation from three to four, assuming they have the staff available to fill out the extra slot (maybe they don't?), but doing so in such a hurried manner is going to wipe out any benefits that come from having shorter shifts. After all, if it takes weeks for people to recover from the daylight saving time change, imagine what this would do. Jellico seems to be sabotaging his own goals just to leave his footprint on the ship. I also don't buy that the Enterprise needed a major shakeup. De-prioritizing scientific endeavors is one thing, but just because Jellico says things are too comfortable or "not good enough" that doesn't mean it's true. He may believe it's true, but it's just more of him being domineering.
I wonder how many of the pro-Jellico people who consider the crew to be whiny pedants have ever had a boss, teacher, or even CO like Jellico. He had so many opportunities to smooth over his orders and he didn't take a single one. "Then you'd better get to it, Geordi. Looks like you have some work to do," is such an overtly condescending statement that would push many people, myself included, to the point of "f--- you, I'm done, bye." A simple "I know this is difficult, but we have to work together and make do with what we can" is so much better, even if it is just lip service, than, "haha sucks to be you, get it done."
I'd like to steal a quote from Saito S at the Trek BBS that illustrates how Jellico is not being reasonable:
"Later, Geordi complains to Riker about what Jelico expects of him. Not only has he been told to realign the warp coils in two days (a previous scene established that this task alone was pushing the envelope of what was doable and would require the entire Engineering staff to work overtime), but ON TOP of that, he has to juggle all of his duty rosters due to the shift changes and 'completely reroute half the power systems on this ship'. And then, after being given a list of tasks that would push his department to its limits as it is with the time allotted and personnel available, he loses a third of his staff because Jelico has transferred them to security! LaForge specifically says he doesn't mind changes and doesn't mind hard work, but he isn't being given the time and personnel necessary to effect the changes or do the work. That attitude is entirely reasonable, and we can rely on Geordi's assessment of the situation regarding his department as being generally correct - after all, he's been established through 4+ years of TNG at this point to be an extremely competent chief engineer. Some - certainly not all, but some - of Jelico's demands were unreasonable, because some of them went beyond simply being hard or changing their routine, and were well into 'you're nearly asking the impossible here' territory. That's what LaForge is telling Riker, and that's what that scene is telling us. Jelico can hardly be held blameless for the troubles that went on during this episode. "
Again, if he really wants to be ready for battle, all of this needless change and antagonizing only serves to throw the crew off-balance. Are those engineers really going to be effective security officers? If they are, what's their purpose anyway? Are they expecting to be boarded? Even if Jellico was the nicest captain ever, all this would still lead to the crew not functioning at their best, putting the mission in jeopardy.
Re: TNG S4: Reunion
2.5 stars
Not really excited or really drawn in to this episode. I much prefer Sins of the Father or Redemption to this
Just fell flat. Never a fan of the Kehlehr character or the Worf romance angle. I’d eventual go on to like Alexander but didn’t do much for me here. I also thought Picard was a little crusty in his attitude from way he treated Worf to his attitude with Kmpec.
2.5 stars
Not really excited or really drawn in to this episode. I much prefer Sins of the Father or Redemption to this
Just fell flat. Never a fan of the Kehlehr character or the Worf romance angle. I’d eventual go on to like Alexander but didn’t do much for me here. I also thought Picard was a little crusty in his attitude from way he treated Worf to his attitude with Kmpec.
Re: VOY S2: Twisted
Rahul,
"The distortion ring made absolutely no sense."
That's the point. If it made sense, they could have figured out a way to beat it.
The blessing of this episode is that technobabble and photon torpedoes didn't win the day.
Rahul,
"The distortion ring made absolutely no sense."
That's the point. If it made sense, they could have figured out a way to beat it.
The blessing of this episode is that technobabble and photon torpedoes didn't win the day.
Re: VOY S2: Meld
Karrah,
www.healthline.com/health/bipolar-disorder/bipolar-psychosis
Doc wasn't making your assertion. He was checking for one symptom.
You should watch the rest of the episode.
Karrah,
www.healthline.com/health/bipolar-disorder/bipolar-psychosis
Doc wasn't making your assertion. He was checking for one symptom.
You should watch the rest of the episode.
Re: VOY S2: Meld
I’m disappointed because when I watched this episode I saw the following exchange:
Tuvok: is it possible he’s psychotic?
Doctor: call up the genetic records... no, it doesn’t show any tendencies towards Bipolar Disorder...
Ok, as a person with Bipolar Disorder, I am NOT psychotic. This is very well known even in the 21st century. I’m offended that they had to put this in the show blantantly false discrimination towards mental illness.
Bipolar doesn’t make you a murderer.
That disgusted and disturbed me enough I didn’t care to watch the rest of the episode.
I’m disappointed because when I watched this episode I saw the following exchange:
Tuvok: is it possible he’s psychotic?
Doctor: call up the genetic records... no, it doesn’t show any tendencies towards Bipolar Disorder...
Ok, as a person with Bipolar Disorder, I am NOT psychotic. This is very well known even in the 21st century. I’m offended that they had to put this in the show blantantly false discrimination towards mental illness.
Bipolar doesn’t make you a murderer.
That disgusted and disturbed me enough I didn’t care to watch the rest of the episode.
Re: VOY S3: Coda
this episode is a complete piece of garbage. if it had been written by someone not on staff, it wouldn't even have been purchased on spec, much less made it to production.
i didn't like VOY much on first run, i was way more of a DS9 fan. however, in the past 10-odd years of fake garbage "star trek," i have been revisiting the series and have found much to enjoy.
that being said, this is easily one of the worst episodes of the first three seasons. so many cliches: another shuttle crash, a totally WTF "time loop" sublot that goes nowhere and is inexplicably dropped after the first two acts, another fake "death" of a crew person, some kind of incomprehensible ghost-story-with-technobabble nonsense about an evil alien that feasts on the mental energy of the dying, etc etc etc. just a complete mess.
like i was saying, credit where due, i have been enjoying 90% of the VOY series on rewatch, but bad is bad - and this one is really, really bad.
this episode is a complete piece of garbage. if it had been written by someone not on staff, it wouldn't even have been purchased on spec, much less made it to production.
i didn't like VOY much on first run, i was way more of a DS9 fan. however, in the past 10-odd years of fake garbage "star trek," i have been revisiting the series and have found much to enjoy.
that being said, this is easily one of the worst episodes of the first three seasons. so many cliches: another shuttle crash, a totally WTF "time loop" sublot that goes nowhere and is inexplicably dropped after the first two acts, another fake "death" of a crew person, some kind of incomprehensible ghost-story-with-technobabble nonsense about an evil alien that feasts on the mental energy of the dying, etc etc etc. just a complete mess.
like i was saying, credit where due, i have been enjoying 90% of the VOY series on rewatch, but bad is bad - and this one is really, really bad.
Re: DS9 S3: Explorers
@Elliott
1.) "Well, it was well-established that the Bajoran culture was once very advanced. It was established all the way back in “Ensign Ro.” What hasn't been explained is what slowed them down before the Occupation. Hmm...I wonder if Bajor had a dark age, when religious paranoia squashed out understanding, reason, science and skepticism?"
If I remember correctly, the only thing that "Ensign Ro" established was that the Bajorans were "culturally advanced" - meaning they were doing things like producing philosophers and artists and great works of literature - when Humans weren't yet standing erect. Aside from these light-ships, I don't think it's ever been said that the Bajorans were in any way technologically advanced prior to the Occupation.
Dukat will later say when the Cardassians first came to Bajor that the Bajorans were at least a century behind them, technologically speaking. Now, granted, that comes from the mouth of a deluded madman with a gargantuan ego and an overwhelming sense of racial superiority plus a Cardassian version of the White Man's Burden, so take it for what it's really worth. However, from everything else we see or are told about the Bajorans prior to the Occupation, they seem to have a much more contemplative species than most. They don't seem to have been all that interested in advancing their technology.
I doubt there was a "dark age, when religious paranoia squashed out understanding, reason, science and skepticism". They just seem to have followed a much different path than did Humanity, or indeed most of the races in Trek.
2.) "Over dinner, Sisko tells Jake that the most difficult part of the trip, besides overcoming common sense, will be getting through the Don Cheadle Belt or whatever it's called."
Actually, I'd say the most difficult part would be.... getting the thing off the planet in the first place. Seriously, how did the ancient Bajorans (who, remember, aren't that technologically advanced) get this rickety and delicate thing into orbit? Notice how Sisko doesn't even bother with part of the journey? He and Jake don't start their little get-away from Bajor. They launch the thing out of one of the station's cargo bays. I actually like this episode a fair deal more than you seem to (I gave it a 7/10) but it is rather convenient how that little problem is just skimmed over, isn't it?
3.) "I don't understand why Sisko couldn't have built a regular boat...you know, on the water. He and Jake could have sailed across the Bajoran sea—still an impressive and difficult thing to do by yourself with 800-year-old equipment!"
That.... is a very good idea! I would have loved to see that. Sadly, I think that wasn't even considered because DS9 was already getting plenty of criticism for being a "soap opera in space" and not having enough science-fiction elements, a la TOS or TNG (or even VOY at this point). Focusing a whole episode on one group of characters doing the decidedly non-science-ficiton thing of sailing in a boat and another group grappling with interpersonal issues probably wouldn't have helped in that regard.
4.) "Finally, in my opinion, the character of Jake is not adding very much to the series. Sending him off to school, where he could return, Wesley-like, now and again when the story could use him, would alleviate the awkwardness of having this ostensible main cast member so frequently absent from the show. I suppose there may have been contract issues preventing this, but it seems like a missed opportunity."
I doubt there were any contract issues involved. Sadly, the reason Jake so often appears as "Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Picture" is because the writers created him in the first place not to be a fleshed out character in his own right but to simply add dynamics to Sisko's character. It wasn't until they basically stumbled on the idea of making him a writer that they had any idea what to do with him at all in his own right, divorced from his relationship with his father. And even from here on out, with the writer aspect attached to the character, they STILL don't do all that much.
@Elliott
1.) "Well, it was well-established that the Bajoran culture was once very advanced. It was established all the way back in “Ensign Ro.” What hasn't been explained is what slowed them down before the Occupation. Hmm...I wonder if Bajor had a dark age, when religious paranoia squashed out understanding, reason, science and skepticism?"
If I remember correctly, the only thing that "Ensign Ro" established was that the Bajorans were "culturally advanced" - meaning they were doing things like producing philosophers and artists and great works of literature - when Humans weren't yet standing erect. Aside from these light-ships, I don't think it's ever been said that the Bajorans were in any way technologically advanced prior to the Occupation.
Dukat will later say when the Cardassians first came to Bajor that the Bajorans were at least a century behind them, technologically speaking. Now, granted, that comes from the mouth of a deluded madman with a gargantuan ego and an overwhelming sense of racial superiority plus a Cardassian version of the White Man's Burden, so take it for what it's really worth. However, from everything else we see or are told about the Bajorans prior to the Occupation, they seem to have a much more contemplative species than most. They don't seem to have been all that interested in advancing their technology.
I doubt there was a "dark age, when religious paranoia squashed out understanding, reason, science and skepticism". They just seem to have followed a much different path than did Humanity, or indeed most of the races in Trek.
2.) "Over dinner, Sisko tells Jake that the most difficult part of the trip, besides overcoming common sense, will be getting through the Don Cheadle Belt or whatever it's called."
Actually, I'd say the most difficult part would be.... getting the thing off the planet in the first place. Seriously, how did the ancient Bajorans (who, remember, aren't that technologically advanced) get this rickety and delicate thing into orbit? Notice how Sisko doesn't even bother with part of the journey? He and Jake don't start their little get-away from Bajor. They launch the thing out of one of the station's cargo bays. I actually like this episode a fair deal more than you seem to (I gave it a 7/10) but it is rather convenient how that little problem is just skimmed over, isn't it?
3.) "I don't understand why Sisko couldn't have built a regular boat...you know, on the water. He and Jake could have sailed across the Bajoran sea—still an impressive and difficult thing to do by yourself with 800-year-old equipment!"
That.... is a very good idea! I would have loved to see that. Sadly, I think that wasn't even considered because DS9 was already getting plenty of criticism for being a "soap opera in space" and not having enough science-fiction elements, a la TOS or TNG (or even VOY at this point). Focusing a whole episode on one group of characters doing the decidedly non-science-ficiton thing of sailing in a boat and another group grappling with interpersonal issues probably wouldn't have helped in that regard.
4.) "Finally, in my opinion, the character of Jake is not adding very much to the series. Sending him off to school, where he could return, Wesley-like, now and again when the story could use him, would alleviate the awkwardness of having this ostensible main cast member so frequently absent from the show. I suppose there may have been contract issues preventing this, but it seems like a missed opportunity."
I doubt there were any contract issues involved. Sadly, the reason Jake so often appears as "Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Picture" is because the writers created him in the first place not to be a fleshed out character in his own right but to simply add dynamics to Sisko's character. It wasn't until they basically stumbled on the idea of making him a writer that they had any idea what to do with him at all in his own right, divorced from his relationship with his father. And even from here on out, with the writer aspect attached to the character, they STILL don't do all that much.
Re: VOY S4: Scientific Method
"I cheered the destruction [of] the bad guys' ship because I didn't like their smugness and wanted to see them get their just desserts."
Actually, it's "just deserts," as in what one deserves.
"I cheered the destruction [of] the bad guys' ship because I didn't like their smugness and wanted to see them get their just desserts."
Actually, it's "just deserts," as in what one deserves.
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion
Won't quote the info, but you may go down the DCS SJW rabbit hole here if you so desire :-)
www.quora.com/Do-the-SJW-rumours-about-Star-Trek-Discovery-hold-any-weight
Won't quote the info, but you may go down the DCS SJW rabbit hole here if you so desire :-)
www.quora.com/Do-the-SJW-rumours-about-Star-Trek-Discovery-hold-any-weight
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion
Not looking forward to it all. I couldn’t even finish the first season. I hate the long con approach to serialized storytelling. Just showing enough to create unanswered questions, confusion and ambiguity. It’s sloppy. Plus the look is wrong for this era. The characters are bland. The cast is ho hum exceotbfir Doug Jones. The series relies too much on TOS. It’s got fantastic production values but horribly weak writing/writers
DOS was first Trek show I gave up on. Kurtzman has no clue how to write. It’s all sound and fury. No fundamentals of good writing. The only reason 90s Trek thrived was Michael Piller. A magnificent head writer who knew how to bring the best out of his writers there’s a reason TNG Seasons 3,4 and 5 & DS9 season two were so consistent and solid. Ira Behr did decent enough even though I thought season four was weak, season six uneven after occupation arc.
Gene Roddenberry also had enough sense to insist that TNG didn’t rely on TOS going so far as to explicitly state no TOS aliens or TOS characters or related characters. And Piller similarly realized after DS9 season one to stop bringing in TNG characters and do its own thing—likewise with his choice to take voyager to the delta Quadrant to force writers to create new races(although the writers after he left became lacy )
Not looking forward to it all. I couldn’t even finish the first season. I hate the long con approach to serialized storytelling. Just showing enough to create unanswered questions, confusion and ambiguity. It’s sloppy. Plus the look is wrong for this era. The characters are bland. The cast is ho hum exceotbfir Doug Jones. The series relies too much on TOS. It’s got fantastic production values but horribly weak writing/writers
DOS was first Trek show I gave up on. Kurtzman has no clue how to write. It’s all sound and fury. No fundamentals of good writing. The only reason 90s Trek thrived was Michael Piller. A magnificent head writer who knew how to bring the best out of his writers there’s a reason TNG Seasons 3,4 and 5 & DS9 season two were so consistent and solid. Ira Behr did decent enough even though I thought season four was weak, season six uneven after occupation arc.
Gene Roddenberry also had enough sense to insist that TNG didn’t rely on TOS going so far as to explicitly state no TOS aliens or TOS characters or related characters. And Piller similarly realized after DS9 season one to stop bringing in TNG characters and do its own thing—likewise with his choice to take voyager to the delta Quadrant to force writers to create new races(although the writers after he left became lacy )
Re: TNG S7: Force of Nature
The plot and execution didn't bother/surprise me
I'm here because what the hell happened to that "abnormal spacial anomoly" outside the rift that Data deemed "not possible" in grid "delta 17" I think.... I was waiting for a juicey twist and it was literally never brought up again.
Did I miss something? or was this just a hatchet job of an episode?
The plot and execution didn't bother/surprise me
I'm here because what the hell happened to that "abnormal spacial anomoly" outside the rift that Data deemed "not possible" in grid "delta 17" I think.... I was waiting for a juicey twist and it was literally never brought up again.
Did I miss something? or was this just a hatchet job of an episode?
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion
I enjoyed watching STD season 1. I was not really happy with the ending.
I recently rewatched it and I again really enjoyed it and I guess I'm not as taken-a-back with the ending..... no wait, I am :-)
There are issues they have to fix.... spore drive being the most obvious as it doesn't exist in the trek we know.
But I'm REALLY looking foward to season 2 after watching the trailers. Little different tone.... better story maybe?
SMG's bland acting will continue to bother me no doubt, but the addition of Anston Mount as Pike is exciting. We'll get to meet some new species... and get to know some of the regulars from season one better. More Georgiou is welcomed as well.
I heard some Klingons are getting hair :-)
I heard they fired the SJW contingent of the writing staff...
I enjoyed Tilly's short and can't wait for the other 3.
Here's to a season long story arc that gets wrapped up better that season 1 and to Peck giving us a palletable Spock.
I enjoyed watching STD season 1. I was not really happy with the ending.
I recently rewatched it and I again really enjoyed it and I guess I'm not as taken-a-back with the ending..... no wait, I am :-)
There are issues they have to fix.... spore drive being the most obvious as it doesn't exist in the trek we know.
But I'm REALLY looking foward to season 2 after watching the trailers. Little different tone.... better story maybe?
SMG's bland acting will continue to bother me no doubt, but the addition of Anston Mount as Pike is exciting. We'll get to meet some new species... and get to know some of the regulars from season one better. More Georgiou is welcomed as well.
I heard some Klingons are getting hair :-)
I heard they fired the SJW contingent of the writing staff...
I enjoyed Tilly's short and can't wait for the other 3.
Here's to a season long story arc that gets wrapped up better that season 1 and to Peck giving us a palletable Spock.
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion
I gave up on the show after the second episode and have had no desire to revisit it ever again. I might give it a chance if they start doing episodes like "The City on the Edge of Forever", or "The Measure of a Man" or "The Inner Light"...but, I'm not holding my breath. (And that goes for the Picard show too).
I gave up on the show after the second episode and have had no desire to revisit it ever again. I might give it a chance if they start doing episodes like "The City on the Edge of Forever", or "The Measure of a Man" or "The Inner Light"...but, I'm not holding my breath. (And that goes for the Picard show too).
Re: VOY S2: Initiations
2 stars
a pretty boring episode. I liked the Kazon but not this particular story. The whole young warrior thing did nothing for me and the traipsing about from the Kazon ship to the moon had no urgency or excitement.
2 stars
a pretty boring episode. I liked the Kazon but not this particular story. The whole young warrior thing did nothing for me and the traipsing about from the Kazon ship to the moon had no urgency or excitement.
Re: ENT S3: The Forgotten
John, I don’t especially like Trip, though he doesn’t offend me either. He’s a bit of a hick and it stretches credulity a little to think a bloke like him is essentially a future rocket scientist. On the other hand the actor who plays him is above average when compared to the rest of the cast.
That being said, your calling out of his “petulance” is harsh. This episode makes it explicit that he has not, up to this point even attempted to come to terms with Elizabeth’s death. Imagine then coming face to face with the man who killed your nearest and dearest relative and extrapolate what your reaction might be. THEN imagine that not only did this man kill a member of your family, but he’s responsible for a Hitler-esque level of genocide. Don’t you think that actually, Trip’s apparent petulance was pretty understandable and in fact his reaction as a whole was rather restrained?
To paraphrase Khabib Nurmagomedov, I’d have changed his face on sight.
John, I don’t especially like Trip, though he doesn’t offend me either. He’s a bit of a hick and it stretches credulity a little to think a bloke like him is essentially a future rocket scientist. On the other hand the actor who plays him is above average when compared to the rest of the cast.
That being said, your calling out of his “petulance” is harsh. This episode makes it explicit that he has not, up to this point even attempted to come to terms with Elizabeth’s death. Imagine then coming face to face with the man who killed your nearest and dearest relative and extrapolate what your reaction might be. THEN imagine that not only did this man kill a member of your family, but he’s responsible for a Hitler-esque level of genocide. Don’t you think that actually, Trip’s apparent petulance was pretty understandable and in fact his reaction as a whole was rather restrained?
To paraphrase Khabib Nurmagomedov, I’d have changed his face on sight.
Re: VOY S3: The Swarm
2 stars
I enjoyed the swarm plot but the doctor plot was filled with way to much technobabble, Zimmerman was annoying and this plot kept getting in the way
2 stars
I enjoyed the swarm plot but the doctor plot was filled with way to much technobabble, Zimmerman was annoying and this plot kept getting in the way
Re: VOY S3: The Chute
2 stars. This was boring. I never did care for Paris and Kim. So you can guess how I feel about watching even more unsympathetic annoying versions of the two. Plus the tired prison plot only further sinks the episode
2 stars. This was boring. I never did care for Paris and Kim. So you can guess how I feel about watching even more unsympathetic annoying versions of the two. Plus the tired prison plot only further sinks the episode
Re: DS9 S3: Destiny
Jesus may have been depicted as being corporeal, but didn't claim to be. In fact he claimed to be pure spirit many times. But when have Catholics been known to really take notice of what Jesus said?
Jesus may have been depicted as being corporeal, but didn't claim to be. In fact he claimed to be pure spirit many times. But when have Catholics been known to really take notice of what Jesus said?
Re: TNG S5: New Ground
So they didn't have time to go around the wave, but as Jay and Luke said, they can just go over it. It's not that big. Plus, once they reach it, the wave is only going warp 7.2 so they should be able to go to warp 9+ and have tons of time left.
This is about the point in the series where I really notice how awful the music has gotten. Ron Jones is gone, and McCarthy/Chattaway are completely neutered. Everything is just lame brass chords now. Ugh.
So they didn't have time to go around the wave, but as Jay and Luke said, they can just go over it. It's not that big. Plus, once they reach it, the wave is only going warp 7.2 so they should be able to go to warp 9+ and have tons of time left.
This is about the point in the series where I really notice how awful the music has gotten. Ron Jones is gone, and McCarthy/Chattaway are completely neutered. Everything is just lame brass chords now. Ugh.
Re: VOY S4: Unforgettable
RandomThoughts,
Yes, BoT was a classic WWII depth charge type battle. Agree, phasors were used here but the desired effect was photon torpedoes. This was Kirk v the Romulan Commander. Kirk for the win.
RandomThoughts,
Yes, BoT was a classic WWII depth charge type battle. Agree, phasors were used here but the desired effect was photon torpedoes. This was Kirk v the Romulan Commander. Kirk for the win.
Re: TNG S2: Contagion
3 stars
TNG was the best at capturing the real sense of the wonder of space exploration. This episode is a good example of that with the ancient Iconian civilization and their unique technology. TNG was also really good at sci fi action adventure too
The episode was also effective with its unfolding mystery of what happened to the Yamato and supplied appropriate scenes such as the intriguing
wesley and Picard scene talking about ancient civilization appearing out of thin air on distant planets
And coping with of the loss of all the Yamato lives
The episode also had some pretty good tension with the Crew sitting on a ticking time bomb with the genuine feel the ship could have a fatal malfunction at any moment with all the lights going on and off, shields not wanting to activate, tirnolofts going crazy etc. a highlight was Geordi’s Race to the bridge to warn of the danger the probe presented if not destroyed
3 stars
TNG was the best at capturing the real sense of the wonder of space exploration. This episode is a good example of that with the ancient Iconian civilization and their unique technology. TNG was also really good at sci fi action adventure too
The episode was also effective with its unfolding mystery of what happened to the Yamato and supplied appropriate scenes such as the intriguing
wesley and Picard scene talking about ancient civilization appearing out of thin air on distant planets
And coping with of the loss of all the Yamato lives
The episode also had some pretty good tension with the Crew sitting on a ticking time bomb with the genuine feel the ship could have a fatal malfunction at any moment with all the lights going on and off, shields not wanting to activate, tirnolofts going crazy etc. a highlight was Geordi’s Race to the bridge to warn of the danger the probe presented if not destroyed
Re: DS9 S3: Destiny
Elliott, of course I know that every little detail being an allegory is absurd, that was my point! You were the one that said that in the first place. My point was that, if some stories of Romulans can be allegories, and some can be their own stories, then why can't the same be said about the Prophets?
Also, I'm confused as to why you and Chrome seem to think elements of the Prophets correlate to Pagan religions. Is it just that they have a specific, physical residence, a la Mt Olympus? Well, Catholics believe God is physically manifest in the Eucharist, so are we pagans too?
Pagan religions believe in a pantheon, of individual gods having human-like relationships (marriages, kids, jealousies, etc). The Prophets, as far as we know, have no individual personalities.
Pagan religions often have a local protector god for a family or city or nation. Again, since there are no individual Prophets that we know of, Bajoran's don't choose an individual Prophet to claim as their own.
Pagan religions believe the gods manifest themselves through nature, through weather or disasters or whatever. I don't believe this ever showed up in DS9.
Pagan religions have a contractual element to their rituals. If I do ritual X, then gods will grant condition Y. In contrast, Christianity's rites and rituals are more about a closer relationship with God, and even prayers and petitions is more about "Thy will be done" rather than "alright, I'm doing what You want, so this is what I expect out of You now." Bajoran rites seem closer to the latter, although I admit I'm not 100% sure of that.
So what about Bajoran religion reminds you of paganism? Is it about the orbs? Well, that's unique to the show, obviously no Earthly religion has magical items that can send us back in time or whatever. Is it just that they have a physical location?
But so what?
The Prophets, as far as we know, are NOT scientifically observable. Science says that, given certain stimuli, a certain reaction will follow. And science uncovers those reactions. But there are NO known stimuli that will elicit an observable response from the Prophets.
Look, if I bounce sunlight off of you and into a camera, I can observe the results in a picture I created. There's nothing you can do to stop that stimulus from creating a response (other than breaking my camera...). But tricorders pick up nothing. Running through the wormhole creates nothing. They may be willing to talk to Sisko, but they don't talk to almost anyone else. You can't force a conversation with them. Heck, even Changeling Bashir nearly destroying the wormhole didn't elicit a response. Even this asteroid threat didn't elicit a response (at least not in linear time). So not even threatening to harm them is enough of a stimulus.
So they aren't scientifically discoverable.
Q isn't scientifically discoverable either, at least not until the execrable Q and the Grey. So we have precedence for this.
Now, maybe the orbs are. But they were also in Cardassian hands for decades (or at least some of them were), so presumably some Cardassians tried to study them. And maybe nothing discoverable was present there. Maybe, in the hands of a nonbeliever, it's just an ordinary rock. Maybe it's no more scientifically discoverable than the Eucharist.
Which again, would put it at a parallel with an Abrahamic faith.
Why do you say that the Bajorans "know" that their gods are aliens? They know that their gods reside in the Wormhole. They know that these gods are real, and manifest themselves to certain people such as Sisko. They know NOTHING about the physical nature of these gods. They know aliens exist, they know Starfleet calls them wormhole aliens, but why does that necessarily mean they should be categorized the same as Cardassians or Romulans or even Edo?
Christians know that God is real, and that He manifests Himself to certain people. Christians know nothing about the physical nature of God. Granted, Christians don't know if aliens exist or not, or even if super duper powerful aliens like Q exist. But even conceding that point, how is that different?
And again, I just want to go back to one thing I said earlier to re-emphasize it: what proof is there, in-universe, that the wormhole aliens exist? The orbs, which may have been scientifically studied and proven to be ordinary rocks. The visions that the Bajorans have had over the years, which could be madness or dreams or drugs or lies. Sisko's experience. How is ANY of that more proof than the evidence for Christianity? Yes, we the viewers saw it and can thus presume it to be fact, but why should Starfleet believe in Wormhole aliens except insofar as they trust Sisko is telling the truth? Again, it's been a while since I last saw DS9, but as far as I know, at this stage, the in-universe evidence for wormhole aliens is extremely thin. In that case, Keiko calling them wormhole aliens was not a stand-in for atheism or secularism; Keiko should have been calling Sisko nuts!
So why are you saying it's not a matter of faith? Is it not a matter of faith that the Prophets, who are completely inscutable by secular terms, ARE looking out for the Bajorans best interest? Is it not a matter of faith that the Prophets DO consider the Bajorans to be their children or whatever?
You seem to be very hostile to even admitting the possibility that the Prophets ARE gods, and declaring the definition of "alien" to exclude "god". Why not? Again, just because they exist? That's a circular argument and extremely hostile to religion in general. As I said earlier, I posit that the definition of a god should be a being that A) has ultimate power over a people, even if that being chooses not to wield that power 99% of the time, and B) has the moral authority to wield that power. "B" has to be included; otherwise we could argue that Q is a god, and that's clearly pointless to the question of religion. Nothing in the show suggests that Q has any true moral authority except possibly All Good Things.
Weyoun, at one point, was told that the Founders undoubtedly genetically engineered them to see the Founders as gods. Weyoun's response was "of course, that's exactly what gods would do." Weyoun sees the Founders, as the authors of his genetic code, as having absolute power over him and his people. And he believes that they have the moral authority to do so, and thus accepts that worshiping them is natural. We tend to believe in equality, even among alien races, and thus do not believe the Founders have that moral authority.
But that's the tricky part of that definition I posited above; "B" is going to be highly argumentative. Humans can't even agree to what extent we have moral authority over animals, so how are we going to agree on if a superior being has moral authority over us (or our hypothetical peers, the Bajorans)? So people will have their own opinions on this, and that's fine. But because of that, we should also honestly be able to look at the opposite opinion and determine if it is at least plausible.
So can you do that? Can you look at the other possibility and see if the Prophets DO have moral authority over the Bajorans? You clearly disagree, given your moral outrage over the Prophets presenting themselves as gods. But why? Again, all I see is your demand that gods must not physically exist, even though all Abrahamic religions disagree with you.
In my previous post, I presented a possibility as to why the Prophets might have moral authority over the Bajorans, given their ability to see outside time. This is the only known stable wormhole. Presumably the Prophets built it. From what I can recall, there's no habitable planet on the Gamma Quadrant side. So why did they choose Bajor to build it? Maybe they did have a purpose to it? Maybe they are guiding the Bajorans to a higher calling?
Yes, I know Emissary showed they didn't understand linear time. But Season 7 showed that they created Sisko. I'm with Janeway, time travel gives me headaches. So these nonlinear beings still understand enough to make decisions, and influence reality, even if they needed a single instance in time to learn how to do it (darn paradoxes...). So while the Prophets' cavalier attitude towards Bajor in the pilot may be an argument against it, I posit that the nonlinear time shenanigans means it doesn't count.
I think DS9 is interesting in its treatment of religion, because it can ask the question about what the nature of godhood is. Obviously it can't do that with The God, but the contrasts between the Prophets and the Founders, and the contrasts between the Vorta and the Bajorans, works reasonably well.
Finally, because I just couldn't let this go unchallenged... "Actually a lot of serious Christian thinkers do think of the biblical accounts as metaphorical. Literalists are fundamentalists, but only they would be so arrogant as to presume themselves to be the only real Christians." I'm going to be charitable and assume your statement refers to the first 11 chapters of Genesis, because otherwise... what? If one assumes the Gospel is metaphorical, you CANNOT call yourself a Christian without completely twisting the meaning of words. It's as crazy as the people who say math is sexist or racist or whatever! Look, here's the simple logic (assuming logic isn't also racist...):
1) The word "Christian" means "follower of Christ"
2) To be a follower of someone, you have to (at the bare minimum) agree with that person's central, primary tenet
3) Christ said the central, primary tenet (the greatest commandment) is to love God with every fiber of one's being
4) Christ also said that He is God
5) It is impossible to love a being with every fiber of your being if you do not think that being exists
Therefore: it is impossible to be a Christian without also believing in the existence of Jesus
And also, if you pulled rank about your mother being a theologian, as will I. I have a PhD in sci... uh, engineering, but close enough. So I state with authority that your statement "Science can prove that the biblical accounting of—well everything—is historically inaccurate." is completely false. Again, I'll be charitable and ignore Genesis 1-11 for now. But that's not how science works, at all, since science is about repeatable observations and we have none here. And even if we include archaeology, your statement is wrong. Not only is there huge swaths of the Bible that are validated in great detail in the archaeological record, but there is nothing (again, past Gen 11) in the archaeological record that "proves" it to be false about "well everything", even if there is no evidence to support it either.
But anyway, that's enough.
Elliott, of course I know that every little detail being an allegory is absurd, that was my point! You were the one that said that in the first place. My point was that, if some stories of Romulans can be allegories, and some can be their own stories, then why can't the same be said about the Prophets?
Also, I'm confused as to why you and Chrome seem to think elements of the Prophets correlate to Pagan religions. Is it just that they have a specific, physical residence, a la Mt Olympus? Well, Catholics believe God is physically manifest in the Eucharist, so are we pagans too?
Pagan religions believe in a pantheon, of individual gods having human-like relationships (marriages, kids, jealousies, etc). The Prophets, as far as we know, have no individual personalities.
Pagan religions often have a local protector god for a family or city or nation. Again, since there are no individual Prophets that we know of, Bajoran's don't choose an individual Prophet to claim as their own.
Pagan religions believe the gods manifest themselves through nature, through weather or disasters or whatever. I don't believe this ever showed up in DS9.
Pagan religions have a contractual element to their rituals. If I do ritual X, then gods will grant condition Y. In contrast, Christianity's rites and rituals are more about a closer relationship with God, and even prayers and petitions is more about "Thy will be done" rather than "alright, I'm doing what You want, so this is what I expect out of You now." Bajoran rites seem closer to the latter, although I admit I'm not 100% sure of that.
So what about Bajoran religion reminds you of paganism? Is it about the orbs? Well, that's unique to the show, obviously no Earthly religion has magical items that can send us back in time or whatever. Is it just that they have a physical location?
But so what?
The Prophets, as far as we know, are NOT scientifically observable. Science says that, given certain stimuli, a certain reaction will follow. And science uncovers those reactions. But there are NO known stimuli that will elicit an observable response from the Prophets.
Look, if I bounce sunlight off of you and into a camera, I can observe the results in a picture I created. There's nothing you can do to stop that stimulus from creating a response (other than breaking my camera...). But tricorders pick up nothing. Running through the wormhole creates nothing. They may be willing to talk to Sisko, but they don't talk to almost anyone else. You can't force a conversation with them. Heck, even Changeling Bashir nearly destroying the wormhole didn't elicit a response. Even this asteroid threat didn't elicit a response (at least not in linear time). So not even threatening to harm them is enough of a stimulus.
So they aren't scientifically discoverable.
Q isn't scientifically discoverable either, at least not until the execrable Q and the Grey. So we have precedence for this.
Now, maybe the orbs are. But they were also in Cardassian hands for decades (or at least some of them were), so presumably some Cardassians tried to study them. And maybe nothing discoverable was present there. Maybe, in the hands of a nonbeliever, it's just an ordinary rock. Maybe it's no more scientifically discoverable than the Eucharist.
Which again, would put it at a parallel with an Abrahamic faith.
Why do you say that the Bajorans "know" that their gods are aliens? They know that their gods reside in the Wormhole. They know that these gods are real, and manifest themselves to certain people such as Sisko. They know NOTHING about the physical nature of these gods. They know aliens exist, they know Starfleet calls them wormhole aliens, but why does that necessarily mean they should be categorized the same as Cardassians or Romulans or even Edo?
Christians know that God is real, and that He manifests Himself to certain people. Christians know nothing about the physical nature of God. Granted, Christians don't know if aliens exist or not, or even if super duper powerful aliens like Q exist. But even conceding that point, how is that different?
And again, I just want to go back to one thing I said earlier to re-emphasize it: what proof is there, in-universe, that the wormhole aliens exist? The orbs, which may have been scientifically studied and proven to be ordinary rocks. The visions that the Bajorans have had over the years, which could be madness or dreams or drugs or lies. Sisko's experience. How is ANY of that more proof than the evidence for Christianity? Yes, we the viewers saw it and can thus presume it to be fact, but why should Starfleet believe in Wormhole aliens except insofar as they trust Sisko is telling the truth? Again, it's been a while since I last saw DS9, but as far as I know, at this stage, the in-universe evidence for wormhole aliens is extremely thin. In that case, Keiko calling them wormhole aliens was not a stand-in for atheism or secularism; Keiko should have been calling Sisko nuts!
So why are you saying it's not a matter of faith? Is it not a matter of faith that the Prophets, who are completely inscutable by secular terms, ARE looking out for the Bajorans best interest? Is it not a matter of faith that the Prophets DO consider the Bajorans to be their children or whatever?
You seem to be very hostile to even admitting the possibility that the Prophets ARE gods, and declaring the definition of "alien" to exclude "god". Why not? Again, just because they exist? That's a circular argument and extremely hostile to religion in general. As I said earlier, I posit that the definition of a god should be a being that A) has ultimate power over a people, even if that being chooses not to wield that power 99% of the time, and B) has the moral authority to wield that power. "B" has to be included; otherwise we could argue that Q is a god, and that's clearly pointless to the question of religion. Nothing in the show suggests that Q has any true moral authority except possibly All Good Things.
Weyoun, at one point, was told that the Founders undoubtedly genetically engineered them to see the Founders as gods. Weyoun's response was "of course, that's exactly what gods would do." Weyoun sees the Founders, as the authors of his genetic code, as having absolute power over him and his people. And he believes that they have the moral authority to do so, and thus accepts that worshiping them is natural. We tend to believe in equality, even among alien races, and thus do not believe the Founders have that moral authority.
But that's the tricky part of that definition I posited above; "B" is going to be highly argumentative. Humans can't even agree to what extent we have moral authority over animals, so how are we going to agree on if a superior being has moral authority over us (or our hypothetical peers, the Bajorans)? So people will have their own opinions on this, and that's fine. But because of that, we should also honestly be able to look at the opposite opinion and determine if it is at least plausible.
So can you do that? Can you look at the other possibility and see if the Prophets DO have moral authority over the Bajorans? You clearly disagree, given your moral outrage over the Prophets presenting themselves as gods. But why? Again, all I see is your demand that gods must not physically exist, even though all Abrahamic religions disagree with you.
In my previous post, I presented a possibility as to why the Prophets might have moral authority over the Bajorans, given their ability to see outside time. This is the only known stable wormhole. Presumably the Prophets built it. From what I can recall, there's no habitable planet on the Gamma Quadrant side. So why did they choose Bajor to build it? Maybe they did have a purpose to it? Maybe they are guiding the Bajorans to a higher calling?
Yes, I know Emissary showed they didn't understand linear time. But Season 7 showed that they created Sisko. I'm with Janeway, time travel gives me headaches. So these nonlinear beings still understand enough to make decisions, and influence reality, even if they needed a single instance in time to learn how to do it (darn paradoxes...). So while the Prophets' cavalier attitude towards Bajor in the pilot may be an argument against it, I posit that the nonlinear time shenanigans means it doesn't count.
I think DS9 is interesting in its treatment of religion, because it can ask the question about what the nature of godhood is. Obviously it can't do that with The God, but the contrasts between the Prophets and the Founders, and the contrasts between the Vorta and the Bajorans, works reasonably well.
Finally, because I just couldn't let this go unchallenged... "Actually a lot of serious Christian thinkers do think of the biblical accounts as metaphorical. Literalists are fundamentalists, but only they would be so arrogant as to presume themselves to be the only real Christians." I'm going to be charitable and assume your statement refers to the first 11 chapters of Genesis, because otherwise... what? If one assumes the Gospel is metaphorical, you CANNOT call yourself a Christian without completely twisting the meaning of words. It's as crazy as the people who say math is sexist or racist or whatever! Look, here's the simple logic (assuming logic isn't also racist...):
1) The word "Christian" means "follower of Christ"
2) To be a follower of someone, you have to (at the bare minimum) agree with that person's central, primary tenet
3) Christ said the central, primary tenet (the greatest commandment) is to love God with every fiber of one's being
4) Christ also said that He is God
5) It is impossible to love a being with every fiber of your being if you do not think that being exists
Therefore: it is impossible to be a Christian without also believing in the existence of Jesus
And also, if you pulled rank about your mother being a theologian, as will I. I have a PhD in sci... uh, engineering, but close enough. So I state with authority that your statement "Science can prove that the biblical accounting of—well everything—is historically inaccurate." is completely false. Again, I'll be charitable and ignore Genesis 1-11 for now. But that's not how science works, at all, since science is about repeatable observations and we have none here. And even if we include archaeology, your statement is wrong. Not only is there huge swaths of the Bible that are validated in great detail in the archaeological record, but there is nothing (again, past Gen 11) in the archaeological record that "proves" it to be false about "well everything", even if there is no evidence to support it either.
But anyway, that's enough.
Re: VOY S7: Lineage
3 stars
A solid episode. Smart idea to develop an episode on B’Elanna issues that go all the way back to season one upon her hearing she’s pregnant.
Too bad more episodes like this weren’t done early on featuring her I may have ended up liking the character rather than being indifferent to her
This also actually felt like a TNG episode. It had that feel to it. That’s a compliment since so few VOY episodes felt like Trek to me. This one was quite emotionally involving. It’s also the only episode where Paris and Torres felt like a couple with actual chemistry.
I also enjoyed the crew’s reactions to learning of B’Elanna a pregnancy. The crew felt like a family which it so rarely did In the course of the series.
3 stars
A solid episode. Smart idea to develop an episode on B’Elanna issues that go all the way back to season one upon her hearing she’s pregnant.
Too bad more episodes like this weren’t done early on featuring her I may have ended up liking the character rather than being indifferent to her
This also actually felt like a TNG episode. It had that feel to it. That’s a compliment since so few VOY episodes felt like Trek to me. This one was quite emotionally involving. It’s also the only episode where Paris and Torres felt like a couple with actual chemistry.
I also enjoyed the crew’s reactions to learning of B’Elanna a pregnancy. The crew felt like a family which it so rarely did In the course of the series.
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