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Jason R.
Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 6:31pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: The Impossible Box

I had given up on this show after last weekend's vile spectacle. But I decided to give it another go. And you know what? Not bad at all. Finally we stop spinning our wheels with Soji and our Romulan boyfriend reveals his play. And you know what? I bought it. I even liked the puzzle box.

We get a Picard / Hugh reunion that feels right - for the first time someone not hating on Picard! And the use of the trajector? Kind of a random callback to Voyager but ok, I bought that too. Neat.

This episode worked. Finally I feel like we have cured the constipation of the last few episodes and the plot is going somewhere. And the characters are starting to work better.

I'm onboard again.
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Jason R.
Wed, Feb 26, 2020, 8:56am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

"The answer, I think, is that there no answer. All there is, is one's exercising careful, reasoned judgment with respect to such questions (i.e., when did Star Trek become "not Star Trek," if at all?)"

Jyrom, I am somewhat with Jammer on the point that the debate over what is Trek is usually pointless.

That said, portrayal of moral rot is to be distinguished from approval and glorification of moral rot.
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Jason R.
Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 1:39pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

"But adding to that the "Romulus actually has a secret society of anti-synth super spies" is going over the top"

Has anyone else noticed that the Jad'Vash haven't been mentioned by name in quite some time? It seems now (such as in the latest episode) they are just talking about the Tal'Shiar.

It's almost like the writing has just forgotten about the Jad'Vash and have just resolved to lump them in with the Tal'Shiar. Which kind of makes narrative sense, since the whole concept of having a secret spy organization inside another secret spy organization was stupid and pointless, adding nothing substantive to the story.
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Jason R.
Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 7:46am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

"But since I am not watching the new series, please tell me: in what way has the Federation been 'decimated'? As far as I have understood, it is the Romulans who have lost their homeworld due to the power of plot; and, for plot reasons also, apparently most of their vast empire as well. How does this not, in fact, tip the balance of power in favour of the Federation?"

The Romulans, Cardassians and (to a lesser extent) the Klingons were in shambles after the Dominion War. It was strongly implied at the conclusion of DS9 that the Federation was the dominant power in the quadrant.

In effect, the Federation's position should have been much like the United States post WW2, except no equivalent to the Soviet Union to oppose them.

To be fair to STP, it takes place what? 15-20 years after the Dominion War? So things may have shifted dramatically in the intervening time. But the idea of the Federation being somehow in decline is something that isn't well explained and would not naturally follow from what came before.

Not that the writers of STP would have even heard of the Dominion War or even watched DS9. Frankly, I doubt most of them even watched TNG.
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Jason R.
Mon, Feb 24, 2020, 6:54pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

"Up to this point, I've found things to enjoy about this series. But the graphic torture of poor Icheb that opened this episode was in really poor taste, and it scuttled whatever anticipation I had for Seven's return. It may well have been the moment that turned me against this show. Picard started out fairly strong, but it is going downhill fast."

The funny thing is that this scene didn't really bother me especially at the time. Like most of the action it was actually rather confusing in the way it was shot - I wasn't even sure what the heck was going on other than someone being tortured, but even the why and how was kind of fuzzy. When I realized it was Icheb I didn't really feel much to be honest - though the horror of it did sink in a bit when I thought about it later and remembered him from his brief appearances on Voyager.

What turned me against this show was the moment when 7 beams down and blows away that woman and (presumably) goes out in a blaze of phaser fire.

To be clear, it isn't the fact that 7 would choose to die in a blaze of gun fire in an act of brutal revenge - that is an understandable (if depressing) end to this character. What made me mad was the timing of the scene, the message it conveys immediately after her quiet introspective scene with Picard.

Two characters who were brutalized and tortured facing their inner demons and resolving to be better. And then - 7 going Dirty Harry in a cool Matrix like display of glorified ultra-violence. The message couldn't be clearer - revenge is good and badass. Even suicide and self destruction are awesome if it means taking an evildoer who wronged you with you.

To say that it's an anti-Trekkian scene is gobsmackingly obvious but let's face it, does it even matter? Would it be anything worthwhile if it were a scene in some other show? This isn't darkness and grittiness as an aesthetic choice or the writers choosing to make the setting dark and vile - it's the writers glorifying vileness. It's celebrating nihilism.

I feel sorry for the people who believe this is empowering or some kind of feminist statement. It's really pathetic.
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Jason R.
Sat, Feb 22, 2020, 3:17pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

"Not sure if this represents an actual change of opinion, or if people where just less reluctant to say what they already thought. But either way, Jammer's review had a very clear impact on the comments."

In my case I simply didn't get around to watching until several days after it aired.

This could speak to an age thing - younger posters have more time to watch the show immediately and are more likely to enjoy it.

Or perhaps people who already enjoy it more are more eager to watch it immediately on airing?
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Jason R.
Sat, Feb 22, 2020, 12:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

"SHE is the moral center of this episode while Picard still is a nostalgic old fool who has to learn that he and his speeches are part of the problem, not of the solution.

I salute a show that dares to take its source material, deconstruct it and tell people why that source material was problematic. And I just hope we get a spin-off show of Annika Hansen travelling through the galaxy and making people pay who deserve it."

Haha I agree with you 100%. This is exactly what they were going for, without a doubt. People like you deserve to have your values affirmed and STP is a perfect reflection of those values. I salute you.
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Jason R.
Sat, Feb 22, 2020, 9:50am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

Last time on Star Trek Joker:

- Broken junky dead beat mom Raffi reunited with her estranged son and pregnant wife. Will they forgive and welcome her home to try again? What is this, Touched by an Angel? You bet your ass they won't. They throw her junky dead beat ass on the street.

- Broken alcoholic ex Borg 7 of 9 searches for the one who brutally vivisected her surrogate son. After 13 years of searching for the killer she finds her! Running a nightclub on a world she has visited 1000 times, not hiding essentially running her business in the open. Hears compelling speech about humanity and forgiveness from Picard and chooses to leave her haunted past behind to forge a new better future... PSYCH! She blows that murderous bitch away and throws her own life away for kicks in a blaze of phaser fire! Up, YOUUURS!!!

- Broken mentally unstable scientist reunited with her long lost lover - then kills him, painfully. Because?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me - and shame on Patrick Stewart.

This isn't just not Star Trek, it's an outright mockery of it. I mean literally a mockery. Picard makes a humanist plea for 7 to save what little humanity she has left and then she just beams down to the planet and goes on a murder spree... to thunderous applause. We are supposed to applaud her. Message sent- forgiveness is for old white fuddy duddies. Picard: "7 please don't squander your humanity!"
7: "OK Boomer" SNAP! You showed him!

Patrick Stewart should be ashamed.

Bubye Picard. I paid my subscription to the end of the month but you know what, I can find better things to watch on TV. Screw this show.
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Jason R.
Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 8:33am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

Peter the Wounded is a bad example because Picard's decision to go against Maxwell was about saving lives and preventing a war. He didn't just turn a blind eye to Cardassian duplicity for the sake of following rules.

His actions in First Contact and Insurrection alone show he would disobey direct orders if the cause was just and lives were at stake.

I am not even sure he would need to have gone "pirate" to do what I suggested. Heck in TNG if the Enterprise just stumbled on this kind of situation with a ship or a planet there is no reason to believe Picard as a Captain (to say nothing of an Admiral) could not have just started evacuating people, subject to the Prime Directive.

You are assuming Starfleet ordered him expressly to do nothing but that is not what we were told. They simply cancelled the official mass evacuation and refused to gather more resources to that end. There is no indication that he was under express orders not to engage in any evacuation. Like if Captain Laforge is out doing a stellar survey mapping a nebula or something, Starfleet would forbid him from flying over to Romulus and picking up a few thousand refugees to get them out of the path of a Supernova??
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Jason R.
Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 7:52am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

Peter on the topic of space battles let me say I haven't been able to even follow them in any Trek production since Nemesis.

This issue has been plaguing me with these shows. Like I literally didn't even know what I was watching in the Battle of the Binary Stars to use a recent example. I couldn't even figure out what ships were Klingon and what ships were starfleet. I was just lost during every CGI shot trying to guess what was happening, who was destroying who, which way the battle was going.

This latest battle was not confusing in the sense that I did know who was firing at who (there were only three ships after all) but I still got this muddy grey blurriness that made it hard to understand what I was seeing. The battle didn't make any visual sense or convey anything to me. I might as well have been watching some screensaver or CGI demo.

I am not sure if this is really a storytelling problem, an effects problem or both.

On the topic of Picard being blamed for what happened after his resignation, I will agree that the hate he is receiving in these episodes is just over the top and unjustified.

But if I were to explain it in a far better way than the show has done, I'd say this. We have seen throughout Trek that Starfleet Admirals are like mini emperors in the kind of personal authority and resources they have at their disposal. And Picard would have presumably been one of the most influential.

Even the Enterprise D alone could have transported 10,000 people or something as the Galaxy Class ships were huge. Someone like Picard, we have to presume, could have marshalled multiple ships just on his own personal authority without even needing Starfleet's approval. He could have picked up the phone and called in Captain Geordi, Captain Beverly, Admiral Riker and who knows how many others and evacuated 100,000 refugees probably!

I said before he should have crawled back to Starfleet and gotten reinstated - but even without being reinstated, do we honestly believe he could not have just beamed back to his ship and his crew would not have followed him? He's Jean Luc Picard!

So the idea that he was powerless to do anything without Starfleet support is nonsense. He may not have been able to evacuate every refugee, but he could have almost certainly evacuated more than the mere handful you suggested.

For Picard to have just quit Starfleet and retired was a huge moral failure on his part. He should feel guilty for that.

Now would the Picard we knew have just given up? That is a stretch and something that would require a big leap from what we saw before. Meanwhile, it still doesn't come close to explaining the hatred he has been getting from Romulan refugees that he personally did save!

I do feel there is a good story buried under alot of rubbish. I feel like with just some simple changes this could have been alot more compelling. As of right now though, the story is a bit of a mess.
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Jason R.
Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 1:06pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

For Picard to walk into Starfleet headquarters and to not be recognized by staff should be like Winston Churchill walking into parliament and having to show ID - it's a gtfo moment heh.
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Jason R.
Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 7:41am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

"I'll gladly take an occasional "Code of Honor", to get an occasional "Tapestry" or "Inner Light". Just like in real life, where you're sort of required to push through the dark times, in order to have a chance at the peak experiences.

Nu-Trek is like Star Trek on anti-depressants. Watching it makes me feel...flat. Nothing. It's never horrible. It's never breathtaking. It's just kind of there. And to me that is the biggest disservice we could ever do to the Star Trek franchise."

Thank you thank you thank you. You nailed it. Exactly right.

If further evidence is needed, look at Jammer's reviews - almost all 2.5 to 3 stars with a rare 3.5 stars sprinkled in. Very different distribution from what we saw with TNG era Trek. Heck even season 1 of TNG had a 4 star outing.

I believe this is as much about the financial case as anything else. With a proven franchise like Trek, serialization offers low risk with relatively high returns. You are flattening the curve, so the lows and highs are squeezed out but the product still generates a solid income. No Code of Honor episodes but also no Yesterday's Enterprise. It's consistent unfailing mediocrity, but profitable mediocrity.

In effect, franchises like Trek have become nice safe dividend paying stocks for CBS's portfolio. Whereas TOS and TNG were like Apple with extreme boom / bust cycles the post Berman era has turned into Exxon or AT & T.
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Jason R.
Sun, Feb 16, 2020, 1:56pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

"Apparently there were very few Romulan survivors (Nero called himself the last remnant of the Romulan Empire) and they're understandably bitter about how the events played out."

The Romulan Star Empire was supposed to be huge - a major Beta quadrant civilization. Not that you need to know anything about supernovas to find the ST 2009 movie stupid (god was it stupid - every scene, every scenarios, every frame) but yeah - stoooooopid. Like someone writing a story where a tornado wipes out the United States.
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Jason R.
Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 9:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

"I think I have only seen one comment about Remans."

I feel I speak for the majority when I say the less we reference Nemesis the better.

Or how about this, the supernova got them? All's well that ends well.
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Jason R.
Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 7:55am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

"but Enterprise 40 years later thought it was enough to put Travis on the bridge without giving him any decent characterization or meaningful action"

To be fair to the Enterprise showrunners they did give the character chances to break out - Favourite Son, for example, and his backstory was pretty interesting on paper - it's just that the actor wasn't all that good. If the actor isn't great and the character ends up a dud, he's gonna get sidelined.

You never know for sure what'll work and what won't. I guess the response would be well that is what happens when you have just one black character. So make more black characters. But then the counter to that is that it's an American show and out of 6 lead characters 1/6 is bang on (actually a bit high) for black representation if you look at actual demographics of the country.

And you could then talk about the white characters being high ranking and the non whites being low ranking I guess. In Discovery this was addressed by making a black woman and an Asian woman the leads including in rank. Unfortunately, the Asian character, played by a good actress, was killed off in the second episode of season 1 not to return until much later, and the black woman, played by a mediocre actress, became the focus of the whole series. They just doubled down on Michael Burnham. Then tripled down on her. And yeah I stopped watching around midway through season 1.

Maybe the Mayweather approach wasn't so bad after all.
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Jason R.
Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 7:34am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Absolute Candor

I am with Richard James - getting extremely weary of "setup". I find myself liking little bits and pieces here and there, maybe little moments of interest, but altogether increasingly bored.

Don't get me wrong, I'm gratified that my initial assessment of the character turned out to be where they were going with it (he really did just give up - let the perfect become the enemy of the good) but all this irrational, inexplicable hatred from every side is just so tedious - and completely ridiculous.

That whole speech from the Romulan Senator was just bonkers. Speaking of which, what did happen to the Romulan "Star Empire"? How come one of the major *interstellar empires* of the galaxy was helpless to evacuate its own people? Was this some kind of super dooper nova that just blew up half the beta quadrant?

By the way, what was that piece of garbage we saw on screen firing at them at the end? Was that supposed to be the antique "Bird of Prey"? Because it didn't look like the ships I associate with that term which are Klingon. Did they mean a Warbird? As in Romulan? And if so... wow. This is a minor quibble but am I the only one who thinks the ship designs since, say, Nemesis look like total crap?
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Jason R.
Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 7:37am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

Well Peter look, Geordie is a main character on this fictional show and therefore, a protagonist. What is a protagonist, if not someone we feel compelled to root for, at least on some level?

This goes to the fundamental nature of fiction. Even in stories where the protagonist is an anti hero or someone borderline villainous, it's natural to get sucked into their point of view. Watching a show like Breaking Bad all my wife and I could do was scream at the TV "let the poor man cook his meth!". In Infinity War I kind of felt like Thanos earned it too and was just a little happy for him at the end if I am being honest.

I don't feel wanting Geordie to succeed is inherently bad anymore than wanting oneself to succeed in a similar situation is bad. We step into Geordie's point of view and feel he deserves to succeed the same way we would in our own lives. That's called good self-esteem. You don't approach a woman without thinking you deserve for her to say yes, at least on some level. The guys that don't feel deserving are usually alone, let's be honest.

Can that cross a line into entitlement and even go further into darker territory? Sure. But that's just not what I see portrayed in this episode, with maybe a couple exceptions (I will agree Geordie skirts close to the line in that botched confrontation scene)

But to be fair, you might be angry too if someone got completely the wrong idea like she did. It was basically a comedy of errors. We know from Booby Trap the hologram was never intended the way that it appeared to her and we know Geordie never did anything with the hologram. Booby Trap is crystal clear on this point. We saw exactly how (and why) he created the Brahms hologram and that's that. So Geordie loses it a bit and he kind of has a right to be upset. She believed he was a pervert and he wasn't!
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Jason R.
Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:47pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

I see your point Peter but here's the counterpoint: I don't know a ton about this "player" subculture but my understanding was they generally taught self-confidence, paying attention to verbal and non verbal cues and other basic awareness of psychology that could just be considered common sense self-improvement. Much like the courses that teach you how to engage prospective clients in business .

In other words, while "players" may use the skills they teach for negative ends, those skills are not inherently bad and indeed, might be used in a perfectly innocuous manner.

Doing things that make you more appealing to the opposite sex by paying attention to psychology doesn't make you some kind of predator necessarily, anymore than employing similar psychological principles when you approach prospective clients makes you a swindler. There is absolutely an "art" to approaching a woman, even if it's usually more instinct than practiced technique. Some things definitely work better than others. Why shouldn't people be conscious of that and change their behaviour to make the outcome they want more likely?

I agree it's dangerous for a man to see every woman as some kind of puzzle to solve (a variation on Kirk's refusal to accept the "no win" scenario) but on the other hand, why should it be wrong to try? Especially when it's self-evident that women (and men!) clearly are open to pursuation at least some of the time.

I don't see pursuation (aka wooing) to be tantamount to harrassment, even if it sometimes crosses that line. And Geordie didn't "solve" Brahms did he? (at least not in this episode or timeline). She was married and unavailable. That didn't change at least not in this episode.

Or let me put this another way. If Geordie had approached his date at the outset without trying too hard, without putting so much pressure, by dressing better, by listening more (fill in the blanks) and his date went the way he wanted because of that difference - does it matter if he was coached how to behave versus having just divined it through instinct? So if you're a natural like a Riker then kudos but if you need help like Geordie, you're a creep?
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Jason R.
Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 2:17pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: The End Is the Beginning

"What did he actually do wrong? He lost his post trying to save people which somehow got Raffi fired"

It is hard to know for sure given the limited information, but as I see it, he let his pride and self righteousness harm his cause. Sure maybe his resignation was a bluff and they called him on it - ok then he should have crawled back to them and asked for reinstatement. I have to assume they would have accepted it given his stature. But instead he f'ed off to write his memoires as Raffi noted. Surely he could have done more good within Starfleet than without. Used his personal authority and gathered a handful of ships together to save at least *some*? But again, pride. His way or the highway. If they don't do what the great Jean Luc Picard asks then they've given in to fear and darkness.

I love the Picard character and the ideal he represented on TNG. But that ideal was never really tested was it? Like Raffi said, he always had a way out, always a rabbit up his sleeve. Always some way to stand firm on his personal morality but never have to pay the piper.

I see his decision in this case to be consistent with his idealism in the show, but this time he ended up paying for it. And you know what, it was the wrong call.

I actually have no problem with this outcome.
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Jason R.
Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 12:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: The End Is the Beginning

I'd be more charitable in interpreting the Raffi "hovel" thing if the episode hadn't gone out of its way to have Raffi take a potshot at Picard's mansion in the same breath. This came damn close to invoking "white privilege" in a setting in which it has no place, period full stop.

For me this isn't a question of violating canon, although poverty on *Earth* is about as big a violation as I have ever seen in Trek - the issue is basically one of logic. The technology of the Federation and the basic premise of the Federation would seem to preclude poverty.

Now I suppose unlimited resources doesn't preclude poverty automatically. In Babylon 5 they had nuclear fusion (albeit not replicators) and poverty was alive and well. And in that society it made some sense as it was portrayed on screen.

But to imagine this on Earth in Star Trek? We are beyond retcon and are basically into total reboot territory.

Incidentally, I don't think the writers were going anywhere with this hovel thing except to portray Picard as out of touch and yes - to invoke the white privilege idea, particularly coming from a black character speaking to a high status older white male.

And you know what, despite all my criticism above, I kind of like where they are going with this, even if I may not like how they chose to portray it.

I do like how the Picard character is being forced to have some humility and answer for the consequences of his choices in a way he never did in TNG's run.

Unlike Sisko, Janeway, Archer and even Kirk, Picard was always in my view given a free pass to pontificate, lecture and take incredibly powerful decisions (I Borg, Pegasus, The Wounded, Defector, Pen Pals, Redemption....) while always somehow coming out squeaky clean and unscathed even as he reshaped the universe and took decisions of profound consequence for the Federation.

Well this is where that kind of pie in the sky principle above all else got him - retired, irrelevant and useless on an old vineyard. Someone finally put his feet to the fire and made him take the consequences of his high principles, and guess what? It cost him and those around him, big time. Wrong call Jean-Luc wrong call.
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Jason R.
Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 6:46am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: The End Is the Beginning

I have always found Gene's vision of a money less society nonsensical, especially as it was portrayed in TNG and DS9. But the idea of Raffi living in a "hovel" within a society that possesses limitless energy and replicators is even more ridiculous.
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Jason R.
Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:11am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: The End Is the Beginning

Chrome I have come to the conclusion that most of the complaints on this thread are less about canon and Gene's vision being betrayed or whatnot but simple basic storytelling issues, which you allude to.

The problem with this kind off no holds barred serialized storytelling is that all the oxygen is sucked up by the one big story, such that the episodes just bleed together and become indistinguishable. It is hyper focused on getting us from point A to point B and there isn't any chance for characters to do things outside of the straihhtjacket of the big plot.

Compare this to serialized shows from the 1990s and early 2000s like DS9, Babylon 5, Firefly - yes you had an overarching story with changing characters and plotlines, but each episode was still - well "episodic" and at least somewhat self-contained. Even when those shows became more serialized with multi-episode cliffhangers that happened towards the end of the season, not from episode 1!

The more recent shows seem to have been written as mini series or giant movies, but spread out over 45 minute "episodes".

I find myself vastly preferring the hybrid model we saw with earlier series - yes have an overarching mystery for the season, with maybe even a big mystery for the whole series - but keep it all in the foreground while just letting the characters breathe in more mundane episodes.
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Jason R.
Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 7:53am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: The End Is the Beginning

After that assault on Chateau Picard I just wanted them to load all those Romulan commando corpses in a wheelbarrow, cart them to San Francisco and dump them onto that Admiral's doorstep.

I'm sorry, but this coverup is getting ridiculous. What exactly did the CCTV cameras on the roof of Starfleet headquarters show anyway? 80 year old Picard running around like a nut and then spontaneously flying through the air backwards like a ragdoll for no reason?

Thus far, all I can say is I'm confused and a bit bored. Just get on with things already. No more mysteries. No more shadowy villains skulking in the shadows saying cryptic things.

The funny thing is I was actually enjoying the Borg cube scenes in the last episode what with the intriguing security briefing and the "grey zone" stuff and all that implies. I was genuinely curious what exactly is going on with this borg reclamation process.

But before the setting gets even a little oxygen to develop we are already sucked into wild eyed fate of the universe chosen one cryptic nonsense and "you are the destroyer!!!" stuff. Naturally, whatever insight the character derives from the situation is entirely from left field and baffling (Romulun mythology? Huh?) and /or some kind of plot point (secret knowledge from her android brain?). She couldn't just tell us something interesting about the situation that she figured out using reason. We couldn't just learn something cool and interesting that isn't instantly in the service of the almighty mystery plot.

Anyway, I will keep watching because I do want to keep seeing Patrick Stewart in action, but so far I am frustrated more than anything else.
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Jason R.
Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 10:30am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Maps and Legends

"But as you say your time is too valuable to give actual arguments,"

Did you make an argument somewhere on this thread? I must have missed it.
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Jason R.
Tue, Feb 4, 2020, 6:39am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night

"Gotta disagree with you here. If people back then didn't realize that supporting their country as they herd kids into barracks and separating them from their parents isn't a war crime, I'm not quite sure what it would take to convince them. If people today can't see that it's completely appalling to rip families apart at the border as they come to seek a better life after we Americans fucked up their country so bad that they can't survive"

It's obvious why you can't convince them - because you don't understand them at all.

If you can only imagine a political adversary as believing something due to stupidity or evil odds are you are suffering from a failure in imagination.

For example, even as a Jewish person, I don't find it difficult to peek behind the curtain of Nazi thought and understand what kind of narratives permitted them to go down the path they did. And I guarantee you the narrative was not bwahahaha (cue imperial theme).

Obviously it's not a narrative that holds any sway today in light of the events of WW2 but you're a fool if you think that as a German citizen living in that time and place, you would have certainly been immune.
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