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dave
Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 12:34am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: The Galileo Seven

Someone can correct me, but I believe women went from command roles to "yeobabes" because network people felt the show had no future with a woman in a command role. Number One was not well received even though she would have been one of the best characters on the show based on what we saw in the Cage.

Hard to fathom now, but that is how they thought back then.
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Dave in MN
Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 11:09am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

Am I the only one who has never liked Chevy Chase? He just oozes an insufferable attitude.
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Dave in MN
Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 10:56am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

And to tie that back to this episode:

The argument tha some are positing here can be applied to say that Soren's free speech rights weren't paramount and that a non-living entity had the right to check them.
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Dave in MN
Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 10:49am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

And yeah, the wheel HAS turned and ithat started over a decade ago. Why are some acting like this paradigm shift just began yesterday?

There's only one wing in politics gnashing their teeth to empty out the libraries, fire people for stating their opinions (off the clock) and handwaving away regulation of speech by private corporations.

If the right was doing it, I'd be JUST as indignant and vociferous ... so why aren't some of you?
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Dave in MN
Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 10:41am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

Why should any non-living entity (like a business) have any right to regulate the speech of their employees (who are living)? A human being is alive, a business is not.

How can one be concerned about human rights and make the argument that a non-living corporation has the right to check those rights based on a arbitrary shifting standard?

Also, I must point out that sometimes pointless laws are passed to show that politicians care, but the reality is the laws were technically unnecessary. The reason anti-discrimination laws are Constititional is because they restate in another way what the Constitition already says just so there's no confusion.

You can't discriminate based on our enumerated rights, period.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 6:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

I do agree with Mal that this episode did have something to say about free speech and how that freedom is essential to one's right of self-determination .... and this episode IS kind of a bizarro world version of the current paradigm (even though Mal did paint his picture of today's climate a bit too vividly).

Thoughts?
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 6:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

If we're going to argue about this, please start with the idea of "enforced language" and how that imtersects with free speech rights.

And please, let's not use that "Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequences" BS argument.

You could use that argument to deny a person ANY of their rights: a business could fire a Muslim for taking a prayer break because, after all, "Freedom of religion isn't freedom from consequences".

Or if you don't want to talk to the police, they could kick you out of college because "freedom from self-incrimination isn't freedom from consequences". You could even use that argument to oppose forcing a baker to make a gay wedding cake.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 6:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

@ William

Thank you for saying that. 👍
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 10:59am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

And of course the Trek writers were universalist.

The creators populated the ship with all different kinds of people for a reason. The lessons applied to everyone onboard no matter what their heritage, age or gender was.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 10:47am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

@ James

Yes, you may ask why and I'll answer nicely.

The society in this episode was portrayed as

#1. Being selectively bred. Human relationships have no factor in the offspring reproduced.

This is analagous to the Chinese limiting when and who can have children and their enforced marriages of ethnic Ughyurs and Tibetans to Han Chinese.

#2. The individuals in the habitat had no independent agency.

The Chinese often force their populations to give up their jobs and move on a whim, forcing hundreds of thousands to relocate to the ghost cities they've constructed. The Chinese goverment also forces millions into certain professions against the people's will, they force allegiance to a goverment with full control and they openly use slave labor.

#3. The society in the episode kept essential facts hidden from the populace that should be known. It was known for weeks that the habitat would be destroyed yet the knowledge of that was kept secret.

This is analogous to the Chinese goverment's complete control of the dissemination of nformation. That government lies or covers up its actions as a matter of policy.

#4. The society portrayed in this episode used social pressure to suppress the wishes of the individual.

China's social credit system.

#5. The society in this episode created the notion that some people are inherently deserving of leadership because of their genetics.

This is analagous to the racist notion of Sino superiority and the way in which China suppresses minorities within its borders.

I'll probably think of more congruences, but I think that's a good start.

And the reason these comparisons are apt is because it illustrates how this episode failed to consider what would actually be entailed in creating such a society.

That habitat was still filed with humans and we're more fickle and random than what's shown here. In order to create such a "utopia", strongarm tactics like what the Chinese use would also have to be a factor.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 10:23am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

I literally never said "any" so stop lying.

I don't expect an apology so, unless you surprise me, I'm done responding to you, Booming. Forever.

And trust me, I have NO problem putting you on infinite ignore. I know you crave attention ... so it'll be the prize that never stops paying dividends.

Just know that, ten years from now, I'll still be chuckling at your wasted efforts to get me to engage.

Toodles!
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 10:18am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

I'll own up to my faults in this.

I'll fully acknowledge that I got indignant at certain points (and being indignant doesn't promote healthy discussion), but the notion that I only care about Chinese atrocities because it was a useful rhetorical tool is really offensive to me.

It also didn't help that I'm seeing people fret over battlefield terrorists not being read their rights. (Yes, me using the word "crying" was somewhat hyperbole, but still, it's not THAT much of hyperbole considering the volume of text hand-wringing about terrorist's human rights).

I knew two guys who were killed overseas in those pointless wars and I would happily trade them for the terrorists who sniped them, even if meant those terrorists didn't get a lawyer and were immediately blown up by a drone. (Unlike some, I'm fine with that in a battle scenario.)

That may explain some of how this thread went sideways.

Well, hopefully by now I've proved that I truly care about this subject. If not, I'm worse at this debating thing than I thought.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 9:55am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

Perhaps if the Tibetans and Ughuyrs joined ISIS, they might care about their rights then?
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 9:53am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

The reason there is a "break" in because there are huge incongruities and dissonances in both what triggers people to speak up AND in how they formulate where to apply their attention.

I don't believe that the philosophy that Trek teaches was intended only for Western audiences, and regardless of that intention, the truths it teaches are universal.

I also don't believe non-interference is a Western concept at ALL, that's a HUMAN concept. (To say otherwise is to say that non-Westerners like to interfere .... which is another uncomfortable unspoken truth about this line of thought). Maybe that's part of the "break" too.

If someone wants to use some artificial lines on a map to decide which human rights are worth defending, that's on them.

But I think they should own up to the fact that they don't care because those people are, for whatever reason, "different".
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 9:30am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

It says something about you that, instead of apologizing for a brazen lie, you attack my sincerity.

You don't seem to have any personal morality so why are you wagging your finger at me?
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 9:29am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

Yes BECAUSE THE CLOSEST MODERN ANALOG TO THE SOCIETY PORTRAYED IN THIS EPISODE IS CHINA. I would have brought it up anyways because there is no way to divorce China from its actions.

The conversation didn't happen that way because some people were more concerned with sympathizing with ISIS and Al Qaeda.

You are acting like it's a bad thing to protest genocide. What the hell is your malfunction?!?!
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 9:09am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

Reread the thread before you rewrite history, James.

I reviewed the episode and immediately followed it up with two posts bringing up Chinese policy. Trump wasn't even mentioned until the next day.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to allow an OBVIOUS lie to stand.

Scroll up, people. Hit control-F, type "Dave" and go through my responses.

That DIDN'T happen. Lies.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 8:46am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

@ Booming

I didn't "attack" anyone. I pointed out the cognitive dissonance in putting all their focus on the due process rights of terrorists while ignoring millions that are raped and murdered.

As far as the rest of your comment goes, I'll make myself plain.

You are FULLY aware that our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq were targeted by terrorists and that firefights were a common occurrence. Most of these incidents happened in heavily populated urban areas.

Collteral damage was often unavoidable and the terrorists have had no issue with killing innocent people. Case in point: every terrorist attack. You haven't established what you think you have.

But sure, let's fault America. All those poor sweet innocent ISIS terrorists are pure and blameless! 🙄
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 8:16am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

And I confused Jason and James ... *sigh*

Regardless, my point stands.

I will admit that I hoped at least some of the people shedding tears over ISIS soldiers would also express en
their feelings toward Chinese genocide, but it's been three days and I don't think it's going to happen.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 8:08am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

We're not scoring points here, we're discussing the real world.

I know it's shocking, but sometimes certain countries DO behave worse than others, some Presidents are more and less effective, some liberal and conservative policies have opposing benefits and harms and so on. You can claim that's not the case, but that's an absurd premise to make.

Yes, it's not always easy to have such conversations nowadays, but you act like it's a bad thing to even attempt a dialogue (which is akso hypocritical of you because you've already posted a dozen times about your point of view).

If all it takes to keep you from denouncing the cultural extermination of millions is the fact that you don't want someone else to be correct, then you've got WAY bigger problems than your wayward moral compass.

I mean, think about it.

Millions are being systematically oppressed, but you're digging in your heels because.... why? I still don't get it.
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Dave in MN
Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 7:56am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

@ James

Why is genocide so hard to condemn? You shouldn't need to compare and contrast it in order to denounce it.
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Dave in MN
Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 10:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

@ Rahul

You're right, of course. Thanks for understanding why this is so important.

I'll readily admit I' started being snarky with a few people while discussing this, but it's very tough to completely counterbalance my disgust at the casual indifference to widespread suffering (all whilst they cry copious tears about poor innocent Al Qaeda and ISIS members).

China is guilty of the worst crimes against humanity committed this century (and it's still ongoing).

People should feel bad for caring so little that the current obliteration of two cultures doesn't even register on their radar when discussing human rights violations.

I won't apologize for ruffling a few feathers to make that evident.
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Dave in MN
Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 8:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

What am I doing? A hell of a lot more than what you're doing, which is absolutely nothing at all.

#1. I'm bringing more awareness to the issue. I doubt there's a person reading this who can still claim ignorance about Chinese genocides.

#2. I don't buy Chinese products and I encourage others to do the same. Why support a country that flaunts such twisted actions?

I'm one man but I can still influence others.

My hope was that others here would say " Yeah, what about China? Let's explore that allegorical resonance to this episode". Instead .... well, you know what happened.

If, as a result of my actions, a couple dozen people reevaluate their priorities and a couple of those people are equally impassioned and then pay it forward to their social groups, a domino effect can be created where none existed before.

Our voices have power. We should use them, especially when confronted with cultural extermination and genocide.

@ Rahul

You did touch upon the issue previously and I should credit you for that. Credit is so bestowed.

To explicate on your post from yesterday:

It seems that some people are beholden to their pet issues and are too stubborn to allow anything else to deviate their attention. Perhaps they are unable to have opinions on multiple subjects. I don't know.

Whatever the reason, their molehill is a mountain and that's that. It's especially shocking when you consider that we're all Trek fans .

I also have to wonder why there's a reticence to even mention China's sick policies.

Is it fear? Do people here not care? I don't know what the fuck the problem is, but I'm disappointed in the general lack of caring about it.

Trekkies should know better.
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Dave in MN
Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 2:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

I will give this thread some credit, I think I actually genuinely understand how The Holocaust could happen now.

I always thought the reasons for it had to be incredibly socially complex, but I guess a "successful" genocide really only requires that good people shrug it off before they go watch a video on their Chinese-made device.
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Dave in MN
Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 1:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Masterpiece Society

And I wrote hundred SLASH thousand. Don't read that wrong.
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