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Trent
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 4:42pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

Dom said: "is Orville heavily serialized? Is it possible to jump in and watch Sanctuary without having seen the previous seasons?"

You might want to watch "Deflectors" in preparation for it, but otherwise it's pretty standalone. Season 2 of Orville is real strong, especially the back half, and Jammer dropped a few 4 stars reviews here and there. The episode Dave mentions - "Sanctuary" - captured the old-school feel of the Federation well IMO.
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Dom
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 4:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@Jimmy, I've mentioned the similarities with Mass Effect 2 and other video games when talking about Picard. I think the different for me is that ME2 really leaned into the idea of using that structure to tell short stories about the characters. Also, as Shepard, you could talk to the characters and get to know them. Picard is trying to balance an overarching, serialized plot with recruiting these new characters, and as a result I don't feel like I'm as invested in them. I'd like to see the show stop introducing new characters, stop introducing new mysteries, and start letting us get to know the characters already on the screen.
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Jimmy
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 3:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

My first comment on here. Discovery took 4 or 5 episodes to get me in to it (and I really enjoyed it, apart from Michael) and it's taken 5 in Picard for something to actually happen.

So far, it feels like the writers have just played mass effect 2, storyline pretty much identical. Build a team, go to a nightclub ruled by a powerful woman, negotiate a deal, now to save the galaxy.

It's not terrible, but I think the major problem is some scenes are rushed, or not enough information given, or characters are used to explain things to the audience. All this is because after adverts, intro and flashbacks each episode is about 35 minutes long. 50 mins would allow much more freedom.

I've not really warmer to any of the characters. Picard's voice has lost its gravitas and his stature. Ryan is definitely the best thing to happen so far. Picking up something that someone mentioned above, a series around seven would have worked better, with cameos from Picard, Janeway etc would have made a better series.

Each episode so far 2/4, none have stood out.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 12:33pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@ Dom

If you've seen the third episode, I'd say you can watch it without needing to know everything else that's happened in the meantime.

Twice in the episode, they briefly mention a previous big event that is a spoilerfor a previous episode. But if you aren't heavily invested already, it probably won't matter much. You might not even remember those passing references.

I'd say watch it.
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Dom
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 12:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@Dave in MN, is Orville heavily serialized? Is it possible to jump in and watch Sanctuary without having seen the previous seasons? I watched the first 4 episodes but haven't gotten much further.
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Sid
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 12:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

Jammer, can you just admit now that this show is more of the same nonsense we've been getting from the ST franchise since the 2009 film? Since Nemesis, even? Insurrection, even? Rote, derivative, vapid and uninspired storytelling. Edgy, violent and cynical to the point of being a cliche. There's ZERO allegory. There's ZERO characterization depth. Picard gets abused in every episode by every new character, but they join the cause anyway. LOL. No in-depth discussion on issues, save for the soap-opera level melodrama. No humor. No hope. It's a disgrace to the name "Star Trek" in the same way the worst episodes and movies of the franchise were. It honestly makes you want to cry. 50 years from now, Roddenberry Trek will continue to endure. This shit will not. Mark it down, nihilists. Your views on life make for SHIT art.
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Nothing but the Tears
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 12:11pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

Long-time visitor of the site, first comment. Also, I love that Jammer's still reviewing to this day.

I loved the pilot. I thought episodes 2-4 were okay. I though this last one was terrible.

So much has already been said so I’m just leaving some of my thoughts about this episode as well as the show so far.

In my view, the show’s biggest issue by far is its writing. It manages to produce individual moments or exchanges that are great (e.g. Seven and Picard talking about how much of their humanity remains) but often feels meandering or confused to me (which carries over to dialog at times). I love serialized shows as well as shorter seasons but the creators really have to nail it. There’s also the issue of introducing interesting characters such as Dahj or Maddox but never allowing them to grow beyond being plot devices.

The torture scene, in my opinion, was unnecessary. Seven finding Icheb dead or dying, with clear signs of his mistreatment, as well as her reaction, is enough for me to understand how it impacts her and becomes a motivation for her. It really doesn’t take more than that. Based on the reactions of friends and family, I’m also concerned it could serve to drive away viewers, especially if they’ve been on the fence.

To wrap things up, I’m planning to watch the rest of the season. I’m not happy about where we are and I’m not overly optimistic but I still think there’s potential. Plus, if nothing else, I just love watching Patrick Stewart (even though I wasn’t impressed by him here, unfortunately).
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Hank
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 12:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@Booming: Yeah, bad choice of words, that wasn't my intention, more a comment on his (apparent) self-identification.

And you are exactly right, Picard is, like Discovery was, utterly confused in what it wants to tell its audience - because in truth, it doesn't want to tell us anything, it ticks boxes because it is there to make money, completely muddling any points it could make.
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E. Kristjansson
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 11:33am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Maps and Legends

I'm really disappointed with this show. If I want to watch some overly complicated plot, along with torture scenes and foul language. I'll just watch the latest opuses from Tarantino or Scorcese.

It is not what I expect from Star Trek :)
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PB
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 11:33am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S1: Terra Nova

I really liked this episode, actually, including the goofy dialect. It made me think about what language would look like for people who got it all from traumatized small children who didn't learn perfect English or develop extensive vocabularies from native speakers. Weird grammar + most of the vocabulary and metaphor adopted over generations involved stuff from their daily life. I'm not a linguist so I don't know if there were problems in execution or anything, but the basic concept makes sense.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 11:07am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

I rewatched "Sanctuary" from season 2 of The Orville last night.

It amazes me how Orville can take some of these same story elements (intergalactic politics, diaspora, cultural relativism, the ethics of diplomacy) and create something both Trekkish AND new AND subtly subversive .... while STP takes 5 episodes to cover the same ground and it's not effective or interesting or insightful or very plausible.

Anyone who doubts me should watch "Sanctuary" immediately. It is possible to discuss these subjects in an adult way that also scratches that Trek itch in the best way.

In the least, it's a good palate cleanser for after watching STP.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:56am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

BTW, thanks for confirming The Orville is a better show than DS9, Haha.
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Clark
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:55am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

I honestly felt like the violence was used to show us that this is not the same world we started out in with Picard in TNG. This is a world were Picard feels he needs to take rouge action against the direct orders of Starfleet because it, and the galaxy it controls, no longer resemble what he devoted his life to. Years of galaxy-wide war, borg invasion, Romulan diaspora....it makes sense its not the same and needs to have someone like Picard lead them back to the light... but that could easily just be me trying like and justify what I'm seeing because I want to like it.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:55am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@ Dougie

You still think I'm using sock accounts?

*sigh*

Man, it's gotta suck coping with conspiratorial delusion.
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Dougie
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:39am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

Why I think you have enough people in your elevator car, Dave. Press press press press press.
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:28am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@ Dougie

You couldn't finish DS9? You think Picard is a better show and you enjoy it upon rewatch? Unique preferences. Hmmmm.

In the future, I'll disregard your "Snoreville" insults.
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Dougie
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:22am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

I’ve already watched this episode 3 times. Watched Absolute Candor 2 times. I will rewatch all 5 again probably this week.

No matter how I’ve tried, I can’t get through all of Star Trek DS 9 even once. Made it through Star Trek Enterprise exactly once.

As for snoreville, I barely made it through all of the episodes once and will not revisit it again.

Picard is a solid entry.
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Eric Jensen
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:15am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

From Memory Alpha:
//In 2369, Lore discovered a group of Borg that had been disconnected from the Collective after integrating Hugh's sense of individuality into the hive. Lore styled himself their leader and gave his Borg individual names, coercing them into becoming his fanatical followers. He began cruel experiments on them, attempting to replace their organic brains with positronic components. Meanwhile, he somehow influenced their behavior, making their attacks more violent – they ceased to assimilate individuals, instead murdering them.//

Could this be the goal of Romulans? But ... they want to destroy synths...
1. If the romulans ceated the Borg, they would not want to destroy them. However they want to exterminate the synths. The primary goal of the Borg is to assimilate and not assassinate. So in one sense, the borg is a lesser evil.
2. Like Lore, Soji could turn evil once activated because of some programming error? And if Soji decides to turn Borg into synths (or command them), who would then able to destroy the new Borg?
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Dave in MN
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 10:07am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@ Trek Noir

It's generally not cool to demand an answer from someone and then, when they provide one, to personally attack them.

I think I'll avoid interacting with you in the future.
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Nolan
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 9:58am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@Mertov

Oh to answer your question a couple days ago, no, no paper. Just in that murky phase between getting my degree and employment. Plus I was travelling a couple days ago, so I've had some more time than usual lately. I wish I could spend it praising and defending my favorite franchise, but alas, t'was not to be.
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Booming
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 9:52am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@ Hank
Let's not generalize too much, shall we?
Leftists, progressives and so on are not a monolith. As not every conservative is the same as a Nazi or fascist. Is the entire right responsible for what one right wing extremists says?
I actually find this product of a multi billion dollar company to be a strange melange of the least desirable traits of the left and right. "Xenophobia is bad and now Punk make my day."
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Nolan
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 9:36am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

Capitalism as an established system pretty much died out for humanity in Star Trek cause we blew it up in WW3. Sure, it's vestiges may have dragged on past that until First Contact, but by that point it was weakened to the point where getting rid of it and replacing it with something else wouldn't be as difficult as today. All the ways these new shows try to act contemporary doesn't jibe with the idea that to have gotten to the more idealistic future, all our contemporary behaviours and attitudeswould have lead us to near annihilation - tearing it down to build it back up.
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Eric Jensen
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 9:33am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

POSSIBLE SPOILERS and IDEAS

Could we focus on the next episode?
In the trailers: Picard goes on the Borg cube, part of the Reclamation project
Was there an scene with Locutus?
We see Narek and Soji together and she closes her eyes.
We see Soji and red mist
We see Picard being desperate to see Soji before she activates
We see Picard getting captured
We see Soji throwing something
We see a Romulan Rubik cube and something coming out it, a green figure?

1. I think Soji will be activated next episode. I do not know what that means. When Dahj was activated, she saw Picard. Will Soji see Picard when she is activated? Why is she the Destroyer? Will she command the ex-Borg to become Borg again? Is she a Borq queen? She is a twin, so is she like an evil Lore?
2. The closing of the eyes... when Dahj did it, she saw a lot. She could go through security clearance, access computer systems etc before she located Picard on Earth.
3. If Picard sees Hugh, will there be anger? Disappointment? Relief?

Another reason why I find this series a bit "fantasy" is the element of a prophecy. Of course this can be explained by time travel or even the Prophets in some way...
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Hank
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 9:30am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

"Picard goes into a preachy rant about "humanity" that is obviously intended to mock the high-faluting speeches Picard gave in TNG. Because that's all he did: Give speeches and then never act, never help those in need. He gave speeches and then went home and felt his job was done. And look at the world that has come out of that mind-set. Look at what the Federation has become."

Are you for real? Are you ACTUALLY for real?

"That's why its so amazing that Annika - who has reclaimed her name and her humanity - listens to his bullshit and then goes back to doing what needs to be done: Taking action. Punishing those who need punishment. Righting wrongs and not letting people get away with their disregard for others."

Yes! Shoot those fuckers! Fuck rehabilitation or progress, the death penalty it is! Old testament bullshit.

"The writers have taken a character that was always objectified, that was nothing more than eye candy to satisfy the male gaze of its audience and they've turned her into a feminist icon: A woman who decides how she looks, what she is called and who will not let evil people trample over the lives of others any longer."

A woman who acts exactly like Dirty Harry, because as it turns out, the old white men were right all along. And really? That's ALL you've seen in Seven up until now? God ... So the endgoal of feminism is to turn all women into angry men, got it.

"SHE is the moral center of this episode while Picard still is a nostalgic old fool who has to learn that he and his speeches are part of the problem, not of the solution."

Eye for an eye. How progressive. Oh wait. No. Thats regressive ...

"I salute a show that dares to take its source material, deconstruct it and tell people why that source material was problematic. And I just hope we get a spin-off show of Annika Hansen travelling through the galaxy and making people pay who deserve it."

This is what you want? That's what you "progressive" people clamour for? Revenge porn and more vigilante violence? Jesus fucking H. Christ, the absolute state of humanity ... I am honestly at a loss for words ...
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Bold Helmsman
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 7:56am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

@Booming
Not really. Much of the diplomacy seem in TNG could really be categorized as being of the Big Stick variety, since the show takes place on a heavily armed vessel, and that was the style of the day back then.

There's also not much point in saying that the Federation has evolved beyond money when the show doesn't really show how that fixes all the issues caused by capitalism in the first place.
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