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Tommy D.
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 12:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

"Everyone? No.

I most certainly ain't going to watch it. There are others here who already stated that they've dropped out mid-season and/or they won't be watching any further.

Besides, what kind of madness is declaring in advance that you'll watch something regardless of its content? That sounds awfully like a cult member speaking, rather than an intelligent consumer of entertainment."

Perhaps thats why I observed that you may have a line that has been crossed. But we'll see of course. Time and time again folks will say they won't watch anymore, only to return, if only to have their opinion heard.

"Why "manipulative"?

Seth McFarlane is a hard-core Trekkie. Did you know that he made a Trek fan-film when he was a teenager?

The Orville is a show created by a Trekkie for like-minded people. How on earth is that "manipulative"?"

You're right. Manipulative was a harsh choice of a description and perhaps an incorrect one. Yes, I know these things about Seth. I find that the show tugs on a lot of the strings of the nostalgia of 90's Trek, which is part of the draw, but I find it unoriginal. Again, thats not to say I don't enjoy it, because I have.

"DIdn't you just say that no kind of content will make you say "this isn't Star Trek"? Are you now telling me that THE ORVILLE, of all things, is the series that managed to be the exception that crossed that line?

Please direct me to where I made that statement. This is now twice you've done that.

"The Orville is a million times Trekkier than ST:P or Discovery. How can anybody say that the latter two shows are Star Trek while the Orville isn't? Sounds like a contradiction to me."

The contradiction there is fueled by your own statement, not mine.

Unless we are - once again - resorting to classifying shows by their name while ignoring their content?"

I probably should not have written that to be honest. The What is Trek argument isn't a particularly meaningful one. As I've said before, I do enjoy The Orville, and I guess in part because it does riff on so many of the Trek elements from the past, and at times does it well. Does that make it Trek? Perhaps its something I should reconsider.
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Tommy D.
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 9:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

^^^
" And I enjoy it for the most part. But in my mind, thats not Star Trek either"

That should read " Its not Star Trek either"
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Tommy D.
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 9:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

Are there ANY circumstances at all, which will cause you to say "Nope. They've crossed the line this time. I cannot accept this as Star Trek"?

I'm seriously asking. And if your answer is "yes", then I'd love to hear a concrete example of what would cross that line in your view."

Interesting question. The best answer might be, I don't know. I never finished watching Voyager or Enterprise during their original runs (I finished them much later). But that was more due to personal taste and timing rather than crossing a line.

Does anyone have a line? Perhaps you do, but then, even amid all the criticism we all know everyone will be watching Discovery S3 and Picard S2 for whatever reason suits them.

As for writing for the show, I don't know how much freedom Kurtzman and CBS give them. Maybe I'm looking at it through the lens of the fanbase and not as a writer would. Consider that I watch Westworld, and in 2+ seasons I don't think I've read once that the writers are desecrating Michael Crichton's vision or what have you. And that show has its own issues at times. It just doesn't come with the kind of constraint that Trek does.

While people are talking about it, I find The Orville to be a manipulative derivative of 90's Trek. Its familiar, comfortable, and even smart at times. And I enjoy it for the most part. But in my mind, thats not Star Trek either.
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Tommy D.
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 6:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Dom

"By contrast, BSG and Expanse - and Westworld and Altered Carbon etc - didn't have the benefit of a popular brand name like "Star Trek.""

I think you can argue thats actually a blessing for those shows. They have a little more freedom to take their show in certain directions if they choose, without the looming shadow of what came before.

Also, I rate TNG low, not because every episode is bad, but because I didn't find the cast any fun to watch at that point.
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Tommy D.
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Mine is similar to a couple others.

1) TOS
2) DS9
3) PIC
4) VOY
5) DSC
6) TNG
7) ENT
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Tommy D.
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Law & Order: Trials of Trek

There are supposedly two as of yet announced Trek shows... I do agree that some of the best episodes and scenes in Star Trek are of the trial variety (Undiscovered Country is my personal favorite), I just am not sure in another 10 episode season if I want to see a full episode dedicated to the Trial of Agnes.

I think Raffi/7 makes sense for the characters involved (including Elnor, who was raised by women), but doesn't make sense from just what we were shown.

I also felt that there was a passage of time between Picards death and resurrection in the golem. I don't think it happened right away, but that also could be my headcanon. Soong had finished the golem, but Agnes would have had to oversee the mind transfer, which im assuming isn't a quick turnaround.
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Tommy D.
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 7:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Commodore Oh putting a mental block on Jurati regarding the vision she showed her in the meld is in the story, which is why she didn't seek any outside help. Whether thats a satisfactory or reasonable explanation, ymmv.

"Why are they not at places that matter more to respective government policy?"

I thought being accepted to The Daystrom Institute would be the perfect place to infiltrate Starfleet.
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Tommy D.
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

If you were to pare down to just the 1st 10 episodes of each respective series 1st season of Trek, I think only TOS might have any in the top 30.
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Tommy D.
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
"So you are telling me that we should shut up and support this sh*t just because it has "Star Trek" in its title?"

I never wrote nor implied this.

No sir. I refuse to be manipulated in this manner. And I gotta say that it's quite amazing how many Classic Trek fans are falling for this cheap marketing trick. Seriously, guys. What's the matter with you? "

I don't get cynical and angry about things I have no control over. I'd say in Trek tradition, I feel fine.
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Tommy D.
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 9:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I knew Isa Briones sang the cover of "Blue Skies", I just never thought of it that way.

Awesome.
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Tommy D.
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 9:09pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I would be the first to fully admit, there were problems with this season. I thought there were a lot of interesting things (XB's, The admonition, the attack on Mars) that were never fully realized. Some things felt rushed. I didn't love all the characters.

However, I just don't care.

I grew up loving TNG, and Data (much like Mr. Spock) was my favorite character. To see him get a proper send off, conversing one last time with Picard, was more than I could have ever hoped for after Nemesis. If this happens to be the only season, I'd be grateful just for those last 10 minutes.

I don't begrudge anyone who didn't care for this. Thats okay. But I'll be honest and say I could never allow that much cynicism to get in the way of my enjoyment of these shows. And I mean that beyond Picard. Discovery, The Orville, Westworld, The Expanse etc. I find them all enjoyable, even if I think they range from mediocre to very good. As a Trek fan, I would have thought other Trek fans would be the most used to Star Trek being anywhere from downright bad to excellent, and finding enjoyment in it all the same.
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Tommy D.
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 11:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Well, at least we didn't have to see that bird of prey explosion again.
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Tommy D.
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 11:46am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@ Quincy

Yes, I mostly agree. My comment was somewhat facetious in nature in response to how things can follow a character's decision path.

I did always find it a little puzzling that it was implied that The Borg were already near the neutral zone before the Enterprise were introduced to them. The dialog at the end of Q Who made it seem as if The Borg were just made aware of the existence of Starfleet and the Federation by their encounter. I don't know if that could be true if they were already attacking colonies along the neutral zone.
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Tommy D.
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 4:30am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I forgot her boyfriend and some Tal Shiar, too. But you're right, it would be a minimized body count, at least in the short run.
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Tommy D.
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 4:24am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

All he really had to was let him be part of the crew for a bit, but he couldn't help himself but stick his chest out. :)

I'm sorry though. I'm just needling a bit on those points. Though to your point Dahj likely still dies at the least.
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Tommy D.
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:49am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

If Picard hadn't pissed off Q in "Q Who" a lot of bad stuff may not have happened as well.
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Tommy D.
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 10:23pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I had a really strange (maybe bad) idea cross my mind after this discussion about Picard, and after reading Trent's post. What if Picard is already a synthetic? What if this actually is a different timeline, and maybe I'm not seeing what everyone else is seeing about Picard? Its still not explained how he managed to survive the Dahj explosion relatively unscathed, or why he fainted (similar to how Soji does) upon descent to the synth planet, or why his dreams with Data seem to connect with part of this story.

Of course, I'm still holding on to the thread that Dr. Jurati is a synth as well :)
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Tommy D.
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 6:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I guess everyone has their own opinion, but I just don't see the brain damaged, mumbling idiot others are seeing. That Picard was in "All Good Things", and was constantly doubted, patronized, and told to go back to bed at one point by his old crew. The struggle for him to overcome that perception is part of what made episode special.

This Picard is nothing like that. He does have a little more Patrick Stewart in him than before as I believe Peter G put. But I like this Picard because he allows the other characters to breathe and act like people with their own interests and who are dealing with their own adversity in this world.
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Tommy D.
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 9:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@ Tim C
"Everything he's done that we've seen on screen has resonated for me. I don't think the show is treating him badly at all. Rather it's asking a question: how does someone like Picard act in accordance with his oft-stated lofty values, even without the backing that came with being a Starfleet captain?"

Agreed. Well said.
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Tommy D.
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I don't see Picard as "doddering" or befuddled on this show either. He's not a part of starfleet anymore and he's not the CO of any of these people. Their responses to him reflect this, but I think he's able to adapt to all of this rather well considering he's been on the Chateau for over a decade.
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Tommy D.
Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 8:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I guess I should it was interesting in that it happened in the same scene.
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Tommy D.
Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 8:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I watched the episode again. I don't know why, but I found it interesting that Arcana refered to Picard as "Captain", and AI Soong referred to him as "Admiral". Not sure if its meaningful, but I guess I assume all the synths would have access to a wealth of information.
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Tommy D.
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 9:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Brent Spiner is 70+ depicting TNG era Data. The Data in Picard's dreams is wearing TNG era uniforms. Its Next Generation Data played by the same actor 20 years later.

Romulans may have a regional appearance? Laris refers to the Tal Shiar agent they capture at the Chateau as a "stubborn northerner", like Zhaban. Both the agent and Zhaban have varying degrees of the forehead ridge. And the TNG Romulans looked terrible, save for Commander Donatra.

I never watched Agents of Shield so I have no basis for comparison there.
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Tommy D.
Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 11:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Coincidentally, I watched "Brothers" last night. Soong calls Lore and Data virutally identical, save for a bit of programming. Not really a huge retcon.
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Tommy D.
Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 8:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I'm still clinging to the idea that there is something amiss with Agnes Jurati, so I'm giving the Sutra mind meld thing a pass for now.
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