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Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 3:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Great post, Peter G. It's sad that it even needs saying.
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Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

It's the reality of being fat that causes the problems, not randoms on the internet pointing it out in a matter of act way. As you said yourself, it's vanishingly unlikely the actress is even reading this stuff so I can't even see the point in worrying about it.
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Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 4:44am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Yes, my understanding is body shaming doesn't usually literally refer to making people ashamed of their body. It's more like an all purpose term for anyone who thinks a person can become healthier or more attractive by losing weight/can become less healthy and less attractive by gaining weight. It's an ideological belief that flies in the face of reality.
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Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 3:54am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I like Tilly and Detmer.

SlackerInc, I don't know what you mean by body-shaming, really, or how that's different from simply noting someone is overweight or has gained weight, which is all I am conscious of doing? Even in the very unlikely event that the actress read this I wouldn't feel I'd said anything insulting. I suppose she might have been unaware of how obvious her rapid weight gain is to others, in which case I'd say bringing it home to her in a matter of fact, non-insulting way is probably helpful. It also helps her friends and family avoid an awkward conversation. More likely of course she won't read a word of this.

I don't think anyone should feel shame for their size unless it really is driven by greed and laziness, which is rare. Far more common is that people have busy lives that preclude regular exercise and they receive lots of contradictory dietary advice and struggle to differentiate the good from the bad. But I *do* think that being fat or obese makes someone objectively less attractive, and does risk their health - if that's what people mean by body shaming, and they still think it's a bad thing, then I think they're denying both common sense and science (not just nutrition but evolutionary psychology and medicine too) in favour of ideological fantasies.
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Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 2:18am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Yes, Burnham is an incredibly boring and poorly acted superhero and Giorgio is a camp, poorly acted supervillain. It's like watching Batman not Star Trek.
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Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 1:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

"I certainly struggle to believe someone with her poor spoken English would rise so high in Starfleet - universal translator?"

Sorry, this comment makes little sense when talking about the Mirror Giorgio, who isn't a Starfleet officer at all! It does apply to the original Giorgio however.
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Tomalak
Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 12:44am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

"They should've started the season with this episode... I don't like the new engineer. Her only purpose seems to be to out ahole Stamets."

I strongly agree on both points. The new engineer is difficult to watch. In a sense she is realistic in that difficult, unpleasant people like her really do exist. But what's unrealistic is that people don't bad mouth her constantly for her rudeness and force her to spend half her day fending off complaints to HR. Like Giorgio, you have to suspend credulity to believe she can just spend her day behaving like that without consequences.

It's yet another example of how DS9 did this stuff well in that early Bashir and Odo were both difficult employees, and that added to the realism. But crucially, both faced consequences for that, with Sisko slapping Bashir down at times and Odo having someone effectively moved in to do some of the key parts of his job. That is what happens to people like that in a realistic show. Instead in Discovery we have characters behaving like complete cranks without any apparent consequences.

"But with a 13 episode season, it's hard to see where they could fit much of anything in. I miss the 20 plus episode seasons the programs of yesteryear got."

Yes, as others have said it seems to encourage them to blow their special effects budget on tedious action and CGI scenes rather than use their heads to write good material. And if it's like Season 2 they will write a single story and stretch it over almost the whole season.

Re Giorgio, it's interesting how much she divides opinion. I think she's obviously a bad actress but others - perhaps those who have seen her in other shows - clearly think she's a real acting talent. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case the writers really gave her a lemon to work with. I certainly struggle to believe someone with her poor spoken English would rise so high in Starfleet - universal translator?

"I think it's odd to poke on Mary Wiseman's weight gain, just like I think it was wrong to poke at Adrainne Paliki's weight loss near the end of Orville season 2"

I hadn't even noticed the latter! I think the Tilly weight gain comment above was just a by the by until a couple of people started turning it into the Big Debate Of Our Times whether it's quite kosher even to mention a character's weight gain here. I agree it's not a big thing and said so, but I think it's a misreading of the thread to see it as anyone harping on obsessively about Tilly's weight gain. It's more like I mentioned it briefly, a couple of others agreed, then we got besieged by angry fanatics who dragged it out.

Booming, keep it up. You're doing yourself a lot of favours.
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Tomalak
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 8:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@LT I said "I sense that you think it's off bounds even to talk about this [Tilly's weight gain] on a message board but you can't quite explain why?". In response we get absolutely no explanation of why it's wrong to talk about a Star Trek character's weight gain here, but instead got told that I and others lack class, understanding, respect and manners - and then, without any sense of irony, that we are the ones being rude! And that's after accusations of psychopathy and being off our meds from someone else who also happens to want to make Tilly's weight gain taboo here.

I think these kinds of completely unprovoked and unreciprocated personal insults speak for themselves. I think it says it all that while those of us who are relaxed about discussing this topic have engaged with what weight problems and weight gain would mean in the 23rd century in a calm, rational way, you and Boomer have nonetheless leapt to every insult in the book. I won't be reciprocating.
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Tomalak
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 6:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Paul, thanks for clarifying that. I was worried for my memory there as I couldn't recall Garibaldi doing anything like that!
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Tomalak
Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 9:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

@SlackerInc "Not a fan of the comments about Tilly’s weight. That doesn’t mean I’m telling anyone they don’t have a right to say anything about it, but I also have a right not to like what they say."

Of course you do. This would be a boring discussion forum if we couldn't disagree! What do you dislike about them out of interest?
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 11:12am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Georgiou is there to teach us viewers empathy?
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 7:27am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Maybe someone could use video editing software to do a Star Trek Discovery with all the Burnham moments cut or replaced where necessary by a believable, interesting character? It would still be no DS9, but it would be much superior to the current offering.
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 5:29am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I certainly enjoy debating too - but I am going to do my best to ignore all the "are you off the meds, psycho" stuff and stick to discussing the episode. You, Mike and Atymiss have all made interesting points on the Tilly arc and it's all far more interesting.
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 4:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

"On Tilly: Has it ever been suggested in any Trek episode that performance of Starfleet duties requires a body with low fat percentage? Or is this just speculation, like Trump's assertion that trans people in the military are a burden. Technology has already rendered many of the body's functions as obsolete in our time, so it's not hard to envisage the body as wholly obsolete in the future."

I think episodes like the Learning Curve in S1 Voyager and the DIS one referenced above make clear that physical fitness as we would understand it today is still an expectation. But obviously they seem to be laxer about it with experienced officers like Scotty - which is realistic when you see a lot of top military brass on TV today. I don't think it's some big plot hole in the show, but it's extremely noticeable that Tilly has quickly gone from this:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/b2/87/dbb2873441ae2843ea16e96ef2e03a48.jpg
to this:
https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Ensign-Tilly-In-Saloon.jpg?resize=800,534

It's interesting from a world building perspective what we think about all this. For all we know she has been disciplined off screen. In reality of course, it's probably just that the producers are too woke/scared to tell the actress to lose weight the way they did with the much thinner Sirtis in the 1980s.

Boomer, no one needs your permission or anyone else's. This board discusses all kinds of big and small issues and character arcs, sometimes in episodes filmed more than 50 years ago. The idea that character weight gain is off limits is your weird hang up, not ours. If you can't take it or can't say anything other than "you can't talk about this!", maybe this board isn't for you?
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Tomalak
Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

"What are you saying? that overweight people cannot be in Starfleet?! Scotty and Jim, have you heard?!"

This would be a more persuasive criticism if I hadn't compared Tilly's weight gain to Scotty's in my first post above. As I said, it doesn't seem crazy to think characters would have weight problems in the future - although it is striking how fast Tilly has ballooned. Scotty in TOS Season 3 in 1969 v Undiscovered Country in 1991 is a big difference, but a lot of time had passed in reality and in the show. DIS S1 v S3 is a couple of years. They could reference it or they could ignore it. But instead, as Cody notes above, amusingly they reference how much fitter the character is getting even as she balloons in weight.
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Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 6:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

For those with short memories, Tilly looked like this just two seasons ago: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/b2/87/dbb2873441ae2843ea16e96ef2e03a48.jpg
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Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 1:09pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Yes, deprived of Burnham it feels more like a Star Trek episode and less like a superhero movie.
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Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 10:22am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

I think that's the difference. None of the above had anything like the same focus and screen time as Burnham gets, despite them being the ones in charge unlike her. All the previous Treks were more balanced shows. This would be forgivable if she wasn't such a tedious character, but instead we get a poorly acted scientific genius, sage military strategist, excellent warrior, perfect daughter to Sarek, sister to Spock and friend to Tilly all rolled into one. It's as if Riker had Worf's combat skills, Data's abilities and Troi's empathy and dominated the screen time.
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Tomalak
Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:16am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

LW, I find Tilly's weight gain very striking so I observed it, yeah. It's not a criticism because some people do get way fatter over time - so I don't think you can call it a plot hole or something. I sense that you think it's off bounds even to talk about this on a message board but you can't quite explain why?
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Tomalak
Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 9:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Far From Home

Tilly is almost unrecognisable now given how much weight she has gained since season 1. That's not a criticism - no reason people in the future wouldn't struggle with their weight. But it's almost like the difference between Scotty in the Original Series and Scotty in the later films - and it's not exactly been twenty years.
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Tomalak
Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 8:35am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S1: In the Hands of the Prophets

If atheists reject conventional religious explanations and demand proof in terms of evidence and proof, how can they then turn around and say they won't accept evidence for the divine even if God himself shows up and submits himself to experiment? That is to make atheism a completely unfalsifiable position - any counter argument or contrary evidence is being excluded from the picture.

Joe, you're going to have to explain that divine v divine being distinction you're making to me - it doesn't seem at all relevant to the discussion we are having but I could be wrong.
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Tomalak
Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 8:08am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S1: In the Hands of the Prophets

Joe, I agree with your last post - but I thought you were saying it would be impossible to prove the existence of the divine? Now you're agreeing that there are ways to do it?
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Tomalak
Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 2:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S1: In the Hands of the Prophets

"your criticism of DS9 on the religion front is less about whether what is portrayed on screen is true to life and more that it fails to meet you on your own atheist terms... what you are really after is for the show to just dismiss religion as stupid full stop, which of course it doesn't do"

Yes, exactly. He's watching for a crushing hammer blow against all religion, not getting it, then blaming the writers for failing to meet a standard that exists mainly in his own head and expectations. Presumably if Bareil and Winn had been written without nuance, and if the Bajorans had been written as gullible fools for worshipping the prophets, he'd say the writers did a great job. But I think it would have made for a worse show.

Joe, wouldn't God or some other divine entity appearing be sufficient proof? Obviously they may not do so, but I think it should be possible to come up with a test for a divine being.
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Tomalak
Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 1:59am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Melora

"Extremely mediocre episode. What bothered me endlessly was how Melora's borderline insubordination in the beginning is never even commented upon.
"I know Starfleet isn't strictly military, but an ensign being rude and even hostile to superior officers without anyone even saying something?"

Indeed, it wasn't realistic. "Rude guest star joins the main cast for an episode" can work. In Data's Day the Vulcan (Romulan as it turned out) Ambassador was noticeably rude - but she wasn't part of the Starfleet hierarchy. In numerous TNG episodes Ro Laren was rude too - and got in trouble for it. But simply inserting a bolshy, unprofessionally difficult Ensign into the DS9 cast and seeing them completely overlook her behaviour made no sense.
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Tomalak
Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 7:10am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Cardassians

The interactions between Sisko and Bashir in this one are so much fun. I wish we'd seen a bit more of the naive, brash Bashir of the first couple of seasons. While he was annoying, the way others reacted to him was a joy to watch - including Kira's amusement when Sisko slaps him down in this one.

I think Brooks did a good job of portraying an almost fatherly approach to Bashir, with a fondness for him coming across along with his irritation.
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