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Sarjenka's Brother
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 10:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Deadlock

Just for the intensity, I like this one. My main beef is the easy, joking way Harry and Janeway just accept "duplicate" Harry. That shouldn't be such an easy thing to swallow.

Lots of great visuals on this one.
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Sarjenka's Brother
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 10:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

The actor playing Tuvix did a great job. And the make-up people did an excellent meld of the two characters.

I wish they had been much more daring and bold with this by drawing it out -- you have the transporter accident, they learn it can't be reversed and you have the adjustment. And that's it.

Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips and Tuvok and Neelix are gone. New actor and Tuvix are in ... and Voyager continues on its way.

For say about 10 episodes, we have Tuvix. Some episodes, he's actually kind of on the sidelines. There, but just like any character. For a couple of others, Tuvix is heavily featured. As far as the fans and the Voyager crew know, this is permanent.

Then, about 10 episodes in, in another season no less, Voyager comes across a Vidiian (or anyone else) with the technical know-how who can help them separate Tuvix back into Neelix and Tuvok. For a steep price. Is it a price they are willing to pay?

And THEN after all that, Tuvix says he doesn't want to go through with it.

I think that would make the dilemma much, much better. Because we now see Tuvix way beyond a one-time guest star. We thought Tuvix was here to stay -- and we like him! I think that would make the decision to reverse the accident even more powerful.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 10:56am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Doritera
"Not to mention, it never works the other way around. People who have already criticized Jammer for giving 3 stars to an episode that is 1/9th great and the rest so-so, I have a question for you. When you see a movie with a really horrible ending or one stand-out bad scene, surrounded by greatness, do you not give that scene mathematically disproportionate weight in your mental review?"

Mathematics has nothing to do with it.

A rating needs to address the quality of the whole story. The effect of one good/bad scene on the overall rating should depend on the impact of that scene on the story.

I'll say that the Picard/Data scenes, as good as they may be on their own, actually damage the story. We had all these threads and mysteries and plots, but in the end the show tells us "Ha ha! None of that even matters. We were just keeping you occupied with nonsense because we had only 5 minutes worth of good material".

That's not good storytelling. In fact, that's terrible storytelling. So yes, people are baffled by how such a disjointed mess (and Jammer fully admits that the entire season was a disjointed mess) can earn a 3-star rating.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 9:43am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tommy D.
"Does anyone have a line? Perhaps you do, but then, even amid all the criticism we all know everyone will be watching Discovery S3 and Picard S2 for whatever reason suits them."

Everyone? No.

I most certainly ain't going to watch it. There are others here who already stated that they've dropped out mid-season and/or they won't be watching any further.

Besides, what kind of madness is declaring in advance that you'll watch something regardless of its content? That sounds awfully like a cult member speaking, rather than an intelligent consumer of entertainment.

"Consider that I watch Westworld, and in 2+ seasons I don't think I've read once that the writers are desecrating Michael Crichton's vision or what have you. And that show has its own issues at times. It just doesn't come with the kind of constraint that Trek does."

In theory that is correct.

In practice, the Trekkies who say this are (unfortunately) such a tiny minority that the whole thing becomes irrelevant.

The writers can do whatever they want and the junkies... I mean *fans* will gobble it up regardless of the actual content being served. Hence my statement that there are no actual constraints.

"While people are talking about it, I find The Orville to be a manipulative derivative of 90's Trek."

Why "manipulative"?

Seth McFarlane is a hard-core Trekkie. Did you know that he made a Trek fan-film when he was a teenager?

The Orville is a show created by a Trekkie for like-minded people. How on earth is that "manipulative"?


"But in my mind, [the Orville] not Star Trek either."

That was... unexpected.

DIdn't you just say that no kind of content will make you say "this isn't Star Trek"? Are you now telling me that THE ORVILLE, of all things, is the series that managed to be the exception that crossed that line?

The Orville is a million times Trekkier than ST:P or Discovery. How can anybody say that the latter two shows are Star Trek while the Orville isn't? Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Unless we are - once again - resorting to classifying shows by their name while ignoring their content?
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The Chronek
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 12:29am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Rewatched this Sunday night with my wife. My opinion of this episode has improved a lot.

Picard's death was impactful. I can see why the others reacted as they did, even knowing him a short time. They didn't know at the time that Picard would be reborn in a synth body.

Jurati had her great hero moment. A little convenient, but what the hell. I enjoyed the banter between her and Picard.

I agree with Jammer that the Blue Skies reprise retroactively made Nemesis better. Nice touch to bring Data's story to a close.

I'm not usually one to watch show discussions, but Wil Wheaton is fantastic on The Ready Room. His love and enthusiasm for Trek is infectious. His interviews with the cast and crew reveal some nice details. And the other clips with guys like Kurtzman and Chabon show that yes, they get it. I may not always like the choices they make, but they know Trek, and they explain why they chose to move the story the way they did.

I'm not sure if Kurtzman always understood Trek. I'm positive that he does now. And this is coming from someone who didn't like the 2009 reboot.

Yes, this was a job for them, but it was a labor of love.

Time for me to catch up on Discovery and Short Treks. Stay safe and healthy, all.
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Sarjenka's Brother
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 10:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Innocence

Watching this for the first time in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic.

While the episode in general was acceptable "Trek" at best, the ending really got to me as so many of us face a possibility of dying alone. If only we all had a Tuvok to see us through at the end.
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Sarjenka's Brother
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 9:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: The Thaw

I had never seen the episode and was somewhat dreading it. I'm more of a fan of straightforward "Trek," like when Data contacted by big sister, Sarjaneka.

That's said, this was really good! It was like "Twilight Zone" meets "Batman" (1960s TV show) meets "Matrix" meets "Star Trek: TOS."

It definitely works! Three point five stars for me. Just short of a classique! But very well done. Great performance by Michael McKean.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 5:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming
"The problem is that Macfarlane pitched this thing as a comedy but probably wants to make TNG: today."

Not exactly.

It's more of McFarlane's personal take on the optimistic space opera genre. He was obviously inspired by Star Trek, but he is also doing many things differently and he is doing that on purpose.

Perhaps if you stop expecting it to become TNG, you'll enjoy the show more?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 3:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Mocking fellow commenters based on personal information they devulged in their past comments is rude. Can you please stop doing that?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 8:26am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Oops. Last part was addressed to Dom, not Trent.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 8:25am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming

That's just Chabon trying to lay the blame for this disaster on Stewart.

If you look at the interviews from the beginning of the season, you'll see a very different story.

@Lynos
"I've been trying to think if there is a comparable example of a beloved franchise that was repeatedly bombarded with canon inanity as Star Trek is in the last couple of years."

Star Wars?


"It's like watching a bunch of thugs beat down on a helpless animal. You want to avert your eyes, but you keep watching because you really hope that the animal can get back up and kick them in the face."

It's worse than that.

It's like watching a bunch of thugs who are beating down a helpless animal on youtube, and are getting all their ad-revenue from animal lovers who can't avert their eyes.

@Trent
"I've only seen a few episodes of The Orville. I know everyone says it's the true heir to TNG, but the wildly inconsistent tone and joke attitude are throwing me
off."

Well, it's easy to be called "the heir to TNG" when there isn't any competition.

There's nothing currently on TV that remotely resembles the Star Trek of old, except the Orville. And the tone - indeed - isn't for everyone. I personally love it, but i can see why many Trekkies would hate it.

Hopefully, we'll have more options in the future.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 7:38am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming
"What bothers me on a deeper level about Kurtzman/JJTrek is that they do not even respect basic scientific facts."

Star Trek always did that to a degree.

The difference is that Classic Trek usually maintained an *illusion* of making sense. They cared enough about the science to keep a good front (usually).

KurtzmanTrek has simply degraded to comic book physics, to match their comic book plots and comic book characters.

@Geekgarious
"If this show were as good as a show like The Expanse, we wouldn’t be arguing over whether or not it’s Trek."

You're probably right.

Because any writer that can create an Expanse-level show would understand the importance of world-building and having a consistent universe. Also, such a writer won't rush into doing Star Trek unless they seriously and genuinely want to write Star Trek.

These two problems (bad writing and "non-Trekiness") are mostly two sides of the same coin.

@Tommy D.
"I think you can argue thats actually a blessing for those shows. They have a little more freedom to take their show in certain directions if they choose, without the looming shadow of what came before."

How do they have more freedom?

CBS has made it clear that the words "Star Trek" pose them no limitations at all. Kurtzman is doing whatever the hell he wants, and the fandom (with a few pesky exceptions like yours truly) is accepting this without any problem. Heck, many fans are actually PAYING MONEY for this to happen.

Let me ask you this:

Are there ANY circumstances at all, which will cause you to say "Nope. They've crossed the line this time. I cannot accept this as Star Trek"?

I'm seriously asking. And if your answer is "yes", then I'd love to hear a concrete example of what would cross that line in your view.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 6:13am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Trent

Booming is already reviewing season 2 of the Orville. He doesn't seem to like it any more than season 1.
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The Chronek
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

So....thoughts.

Upon first viewing, I was underwhelmed. I felt the Picard death/resurrection to be unearned with its emotion. To all those who said Picard would become an android last week, kudos, you got it.

I get Raffi being emotional. I get Elnor being emotional. They had established personal histories with Picard. But I don't buy that level of emotion from the rest of the supporting cast.

I liked the scene with Picard and Data in Picard's post-death vision/dream/complex simulation thing. That's the kind of sendoff Data deserved. That was well-earned emotion, mostly from TNG, but also from Picard's journey as we saw during the season.

The trouble with Star Trek main character deaths is that I inevitably compare it to Spock's death and resurrection in The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock. That still remains the gold standard for any main Trek character's death. The characters really made significant sacrifices to bring Spock back: their careers, their freedom, the Enterprise, and of course, Kirk's son. By comparison, Picard's death paled.

I agree that Jurati needs to stand trial for her crimes. Romulan influence or not, she still killed a man. This isn't some cultural differences thing, like when Worf claimed right of vengeance against Duras.

I would have liked to have seen Q back in the finale, picking up where he left off near the end of All Good Things.

Heck, maybe my disappointment in this episode comes from what I wanted to see.

So, now I'll catch up on Discovery and Short Treks.

Stay safe, all. LLAP.
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KathrynPicard
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 11:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Maps and Legends

Jammer,

I appreciate your criticism of the f-bomb in this episode. My best friend feels the sanctity of the Star Trek universe was violated by its usage. He is a schoolteacher and often presents Star Trek to his students as a teaching tool to be a source of hope and inspiration. Many young people have a pessimistic view of the future, so he uses Star Trek as an example of a possible positive outcome, which is especially needed in this time of crisis. Does anyone here know a way to petition the producers to cease using profanity in general so gratuitously.
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Smith
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 8:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I can't believe that you are giving this higher ratings that Voyager.

This series was terrible.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 1:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tommy D.
"As a Trek fan, I would have thought other Trek fans would be the most used to Star Trek being anywhere from downright bad to excellent, and finding enjoyment in it all the same."

I would agree.

And I can definitely enjoy bad Trek... as long as the showrunners have their heart in the right place and are genuinely trying to create something that is worthy of the Star Trek name.

What I cannot enjoy, is the cynical use of the Star Trek IP by a mega-corporation who doesn't give a f*** about its legacy. Star Trek used to be something wonderful and inspiring. Right now it is not, and that's simply because TPTB are not trying anymore.

So you are telling me that we should shut up and support this sh*t just because it has "Star Trek" in its title?

No sir. I refuse to be manipulated in this manner. And I gotta say that it's quite amazing how many Classic Trek fans are falling for this cheap marketing trick. Seriously, guys. What's the matter with you?
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Sarjenka's Brother
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Investigations

Not sure a crew of roughly 140 needs a "journalist" sending out news reports.

I liked the story arc even if the conclusion was the least enjoyable segment. Too bad it didn't go over that well. If it had, we might have had a very different Voyager.
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Nothing but the Tears
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 9:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I’m really disappointed. At this point, I don’t know if I’ll be back for S2.

As others have also said, I thought the scenes with Data were the best part. They also harkened back to the pilot which remains my favorite episode.

Pretty much everything else just felt like a plot machine grinding its gears. As has been the case before, the characters just feel like plot devices to me. There were also so many different parts that just made me cringe. The two things combined meant I ended up feeling very little overall.

I don’t hate the show or the people making it. I just really don’t understand why they chose to tell this particular story in this way. I honestly don’t. It’s baffling to me. I’m not angry, I’m just disappointed.

I’m curious to see where Jammer lands on this one and the show as a whole.
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Other Other Chris
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 7:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Daniel

"One person observed that if Michael Chabon can’t make Trek work, no one can. It takes a a small inferential leap to realize that some people will never be satisfied with anything - or will never admit to it , lest they be thought to be part of the lumpen masses - those vulgar, inferior Philistines! - that get enjoyment from entertainment."

It's very telling that the same people who hate this show come here the very day any new Trek airs to tell us just how much they hate it. Clearly they enjoy it, even if their enjoyment value is taking potshots at it. Get ready for season two with all these people back here again like clockwork. CBS doesn't care as long as they get their subscription.
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Other Chris
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 7:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I get the message they were driving at in the end and I see why Patrick Stewart was drawn to it, but it just didn't work. They could have pulled the same thing with half as many characters and half as many episodes, which also would have forced them to tighten up the scripts. We've come a long way, baby.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 10:03am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming

They'll probably put him in a female golem. That's how show biz works these days. We already have a female Dr. Watson and a female Dr. Who and a female 007... So why not a female Picard?

And don't you dare say anything bad about that idea. If you do, then you're a misogynist piece of ****.

Because that's how show biz works these days.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 8:43am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Jor-El

Not all people would agree that TNG S1 was worse...
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 8:19am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Fair enough.

But if the show is so bad in his view, why are the star ratings so high? Not on this specific episode, naturally, but in general?

I *do* understand why a veteran Trek reviewer finds himself at a loss of words when reviewing this show. There's nothing of substance to latch to. No points that would lead into an interesting discussion. I get that, and I agree with you that this isn't Jammer's fault.

I just don't get why a reviewer would give 3 stars to a show that gives him nothing meaningful to talk about.

Not complaining, mind you. Just wondering.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 7:51am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Trent

"It's worth remembering that Seth approached CBS to make a Trek series. They turned him down and went with Fuller and Kurtzman instead. 'The Orville' is obviously Seth's backdoor attempt to make a Trek show under a different title."

To be honest, I don't think that making an actual Trek show would have been a good match for McFarlane. It's just not his style.

With the Orville, Seth got the opportunity to create the kind of Trek-like show he really wanted.

"It would be interesting to see if 'Orville' can financially survive. It's working from the George Lucas/Spielberg/Roddenberry/Rod Serling template of SF.

Kurtzman-Trek is pulling from trashier, Michael Bay-esque influences, but that stuff sells. The masses love this stuff and this aesthetic. Those crappy Kurtzman/Bay Transformers movies made zillions of dollars."

The Orville did alright on Fox. The ratings weren't a great success, but it wasn't a failure either. It would have probably been renewed on Fox, if the whole Disney deal didn't happen. The market for such a show most certainly exists.

And I'm not sure at all that Kurtzman-Trek sells. The masses may love the style, but the masses have no reason to subscribe to a streaming service just to watch a new Star Trek series, when they have similar content that they can get for free.

It would be interesting to look at the actual statistics here. Did CBS ever publish their numbers?
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