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Susie R
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:05pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Terra Firma, Part 2

@Chrome
"Susie and The Queen, if the GoF isn't evocative of City to you then more power to you. But it's a well full of memories for quite a few Star Trek fans."
That's not a fair representation Chrome and it's disappointing that you would posit that as my view and paint me and the Queen in opposition to other Star Trek fans (of course it evokes the City on the Edge of Forever, but it doesn't mean a blank check to compare everything in that episode to to everything in this one). It also shows that this discussion has run its course. Thanks anyway.
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Susie R
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 8:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Terra Firma, Part 2

"But Carl's Big Reveal is the climax of this episode. If it's just a blip we should ignore for now like you suggest, it's woefully misplaced and given too much weight."

Why is it a blip and when did I suggest it was? It is quite a big reveal that leaves the door open for some significant consequences. Carl even implies the possibility for such consequences of magnitude when he gives the only sentence of any information on what Georgiou may face once she crosses about universes still being aligned.

@TheQueen
"I think some of the confusion arises because we haven't seen this aspect of the GOF before."

Yes, the Queen. This is the first time we see this aspect of the GOF, the ability to use an ordinary door for a test first, prior to letting someone go throght the actual gate of the GOF. The reflexive assumption for some I guess is to assume that the sum of what Georgiou went through during the last part of TF1 and the first part of TF2 is equivalent to what Kirk and McCoy did in "The City on the Edge of Forever" therefore use one to (inaccurately in this case) grade positively or negatively the other. They are not the same, and not comparable.
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Susie Rose
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 8:08pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Terra Firma, Part 2

"Why can't we make critical commentary about it? The episode is at least tempting us to compare Geogiou's actions in Terra Firma II to City."

@Chrome
I already explained as much as I could in my responses to Jammer and you why it does not make sense to do so, but I will try one last time by giving a variance of the two movies example I used before.
The beginning two minutes of the movie you have not seen also tempts you to make a comparison ((because it's the same genre/plot)) with the one you've seen from beginning to end, but could you make a healthy criticism of the movie you have not seen past its first two minutes based on the information you have from seeing the other movie fully?
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Susie R
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 7:20pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Terra Firma, Part 2

Sorry, once again, I sent it in too soon.
I wanted to also say this to Chrome:

Chrome, you also wrote:
"This is all much different than "The City on the Edge of Forever" where McCoy's actions in the past annihilate the show's timeline for humanity as we know it. Kirk knows that his actions in the past revolving around Edith Keeler could either save or doom his future. And while one might say there is a subtle test for Kirk as he faces the choice of making a morally difficult decision that will save his timeline, the stakes of the episode seem to hinge more on saving the Federation, and the bright future of humanity. It's not McCoy or Kirk's soul that's at stake, or some inner character flaw they need to fix. The stakes are the future built out of humanity's hardship that created them. Do you see how that is different than this episode?"

It's different only insofar as me, for example, telling you that a movie that you have seen from beginning to end (read: Kirk and McCoy go through GOF, do a series of actions, and their consequences are fully shown on screen) is different than another movie of the same genre that you've watched only the beginning two minutes (read: Georgiou goes through the gate of the GOF, and that's it!). Your logical response to me would be something like, "How do you expect me to see the difference between two movies when I have seen only one and know virtually nothing of the other?"
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Susie R
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 7:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Terra Firma, Part 2

@Chrome
I'm not sure you understood (or maybe I didn't explain well) my initial reply to Jammer, because you're still describing Kirk and McCoy’s actions and saying how what they do is different than Georgiou’s actions in this episode, whereas in my initial reply I am saying that we know ***nothing*** of Georgiou’s actions once past through the gate of Guardian of Forever or their consequences so such comparison or parallel cannot be made. Do you know what Georgiou did once she went past the gate? I don't. If you are referring to what Georgiou does in the “test” period (Carl himself confirms that was just a test, she dies at the end of that test period anyway, and she is still dying on this side of the ordinary door), please read again my initial post where I explain why the part where she went through the ordinary door cannot be considered an equivalent to going through the actual gate of the Guardian of Forever.

Couple of more points:

You wrote: “You may be right that in some future spin-off of Star Trek, the magnitude of Georgiou's actions here will blossom into something fruitful that will make us rethink this episode.”

What “Georgiou’s actions here” are you referring to? Georgiou has taken no actions here beyond the gate of the Guardian of Forever that we see on screen, therefore there is nothing to compare here in terms of consequences of Georgiou's actions as opposed to Kirk and McCoy's actions (which we know very well). The last time we see Georgiou is when she goes through the gate and disappears. We cannot possibly comment on her actions beyond the gate and draw any parallel or comparison to Kirk and McCoy’s actions in the original series episode. That would be nothing more than wild speculation. We simply don't know her actions as of yet. Again, we know what Kirk and McCoy did once they went through the gate. But we know nothing of what Georgiou did. Moreover, chances are more likely than not that Georgiou’s future actions (that we know nothing of, not yet) are likely to have huge consequences because Carl affirms that she will be sent to a time where prime and mirror universes were still “aligned.”

2. “However, we viewers in the here and now only have the information we're given.”

Yes, exactly. And the information we viewers in the here and now have amounts to nothing at all. The only spec of info we have is what Carl affirmed at the end, that she is going back to a time where mirror and prime universes were aligned. We know absolutely nothing else. No possible critical commentary can be made on what we have no information at all or compare what we know nothing of, to something we know very well (which brings me back to my reply to Jammer). I hope I explained it well this time.
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Susie R
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 1:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Terra Firma, Part 2

I sent the earlier post too early. I meant to add to my comment above that taken as a package two-part adventure, the nods to previous Trek were gratifying. There were neat callbacks to the Kelvin universe, DS9, original Star Trek, Enterprise (I was told, I never watched ENT past the pilot, except an episode here and there by coincidence), The Next Generation, and Discovery's early period. The episode itself will also be a reference for the future Trek show with Michelle Yeoh.

Another highlight of Terra Firma's two episodes together was to show Saru's continuous growth as a captain. He used to be by the book at first, but he is learning that the rules written on a paper or typed in a computer document can be bent, or even ignored, sometimes for things to fall into place in the real world.
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Susie R
Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 1:39pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Terra Firma, Part 2

“Carl then reveals himself to actually be the Guardian of Forever, a piece of continuity that ties back to a classic TOS episode. But the reason this doesn't work is because this story isn't worthy of the callback. “The City on the Edge of Forever" was about nothing less than saving history and humanity itself. "Terra Firma" is about saving a character that up until this two-parter was mostly known for being an insult factory. Thematically, the link just isn't here and thus comes across as trying to pass off this episode as more significant than its subject matter actually warrants.”

@Jammer
Jammer, I say this with the utmost respect for your astute insight, but I think you are misinterpreting the scene. I did a rewatch to make sure I did not misinterpret myself, but everything Carl says seems to confirm what I initially thought.

The consequence of Georgiou going through the Guardian of Forever’s gate remains unknown (and unseen on screen) at this point. As Carl himself states, what Georgiou went through (while she was in the MU after walking through the ‘regular door,’ not the gate) was merely a test. That’s why it’s just a door. It was to see if Georgiou had indeed changed before he makes the final decision to send her through the actual Guardian of Forever gate (and it’s also in line with why he would not reveal that he is the Guardian of Forever at first). She dies that “test” scenario anyway, Carl says that she is taking her last dying breaths. Perhaps another timeline is created, as implied, but that is not important to Carl.

Now that she is “weighed,” he is ready to send her through the actual Guardian of Forever gate, which forms only then. This is the one that counts, and we don’t know what the future holds when she passes through. I guess that’s for the new show. I can understand if you say the “test part” where she goes through the regular door (not the GOF gate) is about saving her as a character but ultimately there is not enough information to make the kind of comparison you are making. While we know what Kirk, McCoy, and Spock going through the gate was about in the “City on the Edge of Forever” resulted in, we don’t know anything about the consequences of Georgiou going through the gate at this point. The “story” of this callback, as you refer to it in your review, is not yet written.
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Susie R.
Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 9:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Unification III

@Stacy
Stacy, your post conclusively resonates with me. I’ve been reading Jammer’s forever myself without writing, mostly to read his reviews. The one time I did to seek honest advice few months ago in the replies on watching a Trek show with our late teenager twins, I was welcomed with a reference to our family behaving a like a cult, then my kids’ independence came into question and it was asked just what kind of parent would watch a TV show with their kids! I sadly observed that hardly anyone objected to that kind of attack. It told me all I needed to know about participating in discussions. I received one or two honest advices on my initial question, I left one last message and never stopped by that particular board again. You are right Stacy, the message threads tend to get unbearably dominated by the skewed male point of view. I would not consider writing again, I will tell below why I did this time. The last couple of episodes comments’ section, just from what I have seen, I too, like you, felt uncomfortable to read as a woman. You’d think that people who hate Michael Burnham, Tilly, or the show that much, would simply stop watching it or use their time for another activity than write long texts driven by vitriol. I appreciate Jammer’s reviews so I still stop by to read them, but reading the full list of replies to his reviews is no longer an option for me. I stopped doing it by choice, just like haters of Michael or Discovery seemingly continue to hate-watch by choice.

At the same time, there is a few people (Tim C, SlackerInc, Tommy D, Mertov, Havegun-WillRiker, Nick, Quincy, Yanks, and a couple of others I can’t remember now) whom I find enlightening to read, because I believe their comments originate from a place of honesty, and they express their takes without prejudice and with an open mind, even if I don’t always agree with what they write (I don’t think any of them are female, but neither is Jammer and I love his commentary). I don’t want to miss what they have to say. For me, the solution has been to click on “comment stream” on Jammer’s main page and when I see those appear and read their comments and skim through the replies if any are made by anyone I don’t recognize. I know it’s flawed since anyone can post under any name apparently but for me it works. I recommend you try the same and decide for yourself. It takes much less time than scrolling through the type of comments you mention and saves headaches. That is how I saw your comment, and it was a sweet surprise which compelled me to reply this one time, as well as seeing you and artymiss exchanging thoughts as two women. That may be the first time I’ve seen that in this board, but I don’t read every post like I said. Even so, I am willing to bet it doesn’t occur often. Again, thank you for a lovely read to both.

For an update to my post from months ago, my “cult” family fully enjoyed Lower Decks and we moved on to DIS (we ultimately went with it, PIC required background TNG watching), which all four of us like, two males two females, and our twins love it as much as we loved Lower Decks. ‘Tears of Burnham’ has never been an issue for us, it never even comes up in our conversations. Have a nice day.
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Susie Rose
Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 7:48pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

@Booming
I don't even what to say to that question. I'm sure I watched several shows with my parents when I was 18. Apparently neither my kids nor myself fit your bill. Have a good day.
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Susie Rose
Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 5:54pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

@Cody B
Thank you for replying. You’re right I haven’t seen it yet, but nobody else has either, so nobody can claim it’s good, or a stinker. I am simply banking on our enjoyment of two other McMahan-led shows and finding it likely that we will enjoy it together as a family, we could turn out right or wrong of course. It’s fine if the twins don’t like every Trek series, I don’t either. We already tried some TNG with them and it didn’t go well if not for the three Borg episodes as I explained in my first comment. And my husband and I are not willing to sit through TOS for reasons also mentioned. If we run into it while channel surfing, fine, but that’s it. DS9 is our second favorite Trek series after TNG and we plan on doing a rewatch soon with them, but for now, with the subscription that we don’t plan on keeping forever, we prefer to move along to the new shows none of us have yet seen. The older shows are available on Netflix anytime. For the movies, we all like First Contact as well.

@Booming
You seem angry. Sorry that our desire to “bring into Star Trek” our children bothered you this much. Fyi, we are not a ‘cult’, just an insignificant family of four living in an insignificant state, no need for you to worry, rest easy.

@Mal
Thanks for the reply although I made a request not to reveal spoilers, but ok, thanks anyway 😊. We like the Orville, but unlike you I suppose, we are in it for its funny takes, its humor as you say. As I pointed out in my first comment, I was more specifically asking about the two new Trek shows and which to watch first because we want to take advantage of the subscription. For the comment about Trek dying, I guess it’s a personal view and it’s your choice if you feel that way, but I don’t buy that view. I’d also challenge your “Trek is not for everyone,” with “there is a Trek for everyone,” in line with IDIC. With Lower Decks, we are looking forward to a show where we can laugh together as a family and have fun watching a show. We have that with Rick and Morty and Solar opposites, and I am hopeful we will have it with Lower Decks too. Star Trek being the background for the show is just the icing on the cake. Lastly, I’ll stop by here at some point in the future and let you know if we enjoyed it or not, but I don’t review episodes, I’m no Jammer 😊

@Majerus
Thank you so much for addressing my question, this is very helpful. You may have convinced me to begin with PIC instead of DIS. The idea of moving forward in the timeline is more appealing, it’s another reason why I never liked Enterprise. We’ll begin with Measure of a Man as per your recommendation. We’ll probably finish PIC within a couple of weeks between Lower Decks and move on to DIS afterward. Sorry about your location issue, it’s weird. We don’t have your problem as a southern-American family through and through 😊 residing in Birmingham, Alabama! I hope your broadcast problem gets resolved soon.
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Susie Rose
Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:31pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Jammer, your decision makes sense. I miss reading your reviews, it's been a while (more on that below). I don’t see either the appeal of writing or reading reviews of half-hour shows. I’ll take this occasion to also thank you for years’ worth of Trek reviews full of insight. I have mostly been a lurker for 15 years. I wrote only a few times since the 00s. I often stop by to read your review if I watch an episode again.

I don’t have the CBS streaming subscription so I haven’t seen Discovery or Picard. In my forties now, I was indoctrinated to Star Trek by my parents with TNG. It continued into my teenage and college years with DS9. Voyager had me excited for the first female captain in Trek, but the redundant scripts and the introduction of Seven of Nine which meant that Trek was willing to resort to testosterone-appeal for ratings, gradually pushed me away and I never watched the last two seasons. Enterprise’s erotic body-oil show in the pilot had me roll my eyes once again and I never made it to more than a few episodes after that. The few I saw were unoriginal filled with dull performances.

All that said, I am excited to come back to Star trek world thanks to Lower Decks. My husband and I are also bringing along two newcomers, my 18 year-old twins, to the Trek universe. One of our favorite family pastimes is watching TV together in the evenings and we are avid consumers of “Rick and Morty” and the other McMahan show “Solar Opposites.” I am not sure why some people, not meaning you Jammer, think it’s only for kids. They were both marketed for adults. If liking one or both makes us juvenile and “dumb” (I stopped reading comments after that, sorry if I missed good ones) as a family, so be it. Both shows enjoy success so I know we are not the only dumb adults liking them. Sci-fi and humor mesh tend to mesh well. I am finally happy to have a similar show, this time set in the familiar grounds of Trek. It certainly helped us convince our twins to give Trek another try. I say ‘another try’ because we tried with TNG and they did not like it. We tried several formulas, I even thought we succeeded when they liked “Q Who” and the Best of Both Worlds two-parter, but that was it. They thought TNG was boring. I confess myself that many TNG episodes that I’d loved as a teenager and in college have not aged well. Just last weekend, I ran into “Pen Pals” on some free streaming service and I could barely make it through the hour. We never considered testing the Original Series on our twins after that. Truth be told, we even find those syrupy ourselves.

As for Lower Decks, it was rather our twins twisting us into getting All-Access subscription after we saw the trailer. Admittedly, I didn’t put up much of a fight (ha!) but I made a deal with them that if we subscribe, they have to watch Picard and Discovery with us. With a bit of hope and luck, that’ll be two Trek fans added to its fandom. Moreover, our twins may ultimately get curious enough to try an older series (DS9 is next in line, my husband and I are optimistic!) Today’s young audience is different than during my youth and even older adults’ tastes and habits of TV consumption are changing. If this is a smart way strategy to grow the fanbase, it certainly worked for us. My children have never been this excited to watch a Trek series (any Trek really) and I know I have not been more ready than now to start watching Trek again since the early 90s.

On another note Jammer, it also marks the first time I’ll get to read your reviews with my original watch of a Trek series. Make that two, Discovery and Picard. I’m looking forward to that experience in earnest. I discovered your site close to 2010 and I only read your reviews after doing a rewatch. I haven’t even taken a glimpse at your reviews for those two. I want to avoid spoilers. I’ll be here at warp speed once I begin watching them. For now, I’ll await recommendations from anyone nice enough to tell me which of the two series I should start with. But no spoilers please!!
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