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Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection
I’m not sure I see the value in assessing the series on unsubstantiated gossip. Whether the changes you speak of stem from legal issues or the showrunners’ vision, the show is what it is, and we have the end product to judge on its own faults and merits.
I’m not sure I see the value in assessing the series on unsubstantiated gossip. Whether the changes you speak of stem from legal issues or the showrunners’ vision, the show is what it is, and we have the end product to judge on its own faults and merits.
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection
Madman, I don’t think you fully appreciate the frontier town metaphor, and I’ll be up frank and say I can’t take credit for it. I’ll cite how Rick Berman pitched DS9 (from the Wikia):
“if The Next Generation was Wagon Train in space, Deep Space Nine was to be The Rifleman in space – a man and his son coming to a dilapidated town on the edge of a new frontier.”
I’m other words, being relatively isolated is part of DS9’s format. You can see this in particular in the Maquis episodes where there’s conflicts on the Cardassian border and Sisko laments the conflict with his line about Starfleet not having a clue because they’re used to living “in paradise”.
Yes, occasionally some Federation officials come to visit, but they rarely know anything about the early Maquis or the Dominion conflicts. To the follow the metaphor, maybe the feds from DC visited the Wild West territories, but the sheer distance still kept many territories out of the loop politically, and allowed leaders in those territories a wide berth. Do you think Sisko could get away with half the things he does on the show if he was worried about Starfleet coming to investigate him regularly?
Anyway, there’s still my point that DS9 leaves it unclear the extent Sisko knows about Section 31, so it’s up to interpretation.
Madman, I don’t think you fully appreciate the frontier town metaphor, and I’ll be up frank and say I can’t take credit for it. I’ll cite how Rick Berman pitched DS9 (from the Wikia):
“if The Next Generation was Wagon Train in space, Deep Space Nine was to be The Rifleman in space – a man and his son coming to a dilapidated town on the edge of a new frontier.”
I’m other words, being relatively isolated is part of DS9’s format. You can see this in particular in the Maquis episodes where there’s conflicts on the Cardassian border and Sisko laments the conflict with his line about Starfleet not having a clue because they’re used to living “in paradise”.
Yes, occasionally some Federation officials come to visit, but they rarely know anything about the early Maquis or the Dominion conflicts. To the follow the metaphor, maybe the feds from DC visited the Wild West territories, but the sheer distance still kept many territories out of the loop politically, and allowed leaders in those territories a wide berth. Do you think Sisko could get away with half the things he does on the show if he was worried about Starfleet coming to investigate him regularly?
Anyway, there’s still my point that DS9 leaves it unclear the extent Sisko knows about Section 31, so it’s up to interpretation.
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection
@OmicronThetaDelta
I think that’s an overstatement. Tyler, a security officer, knows about Section 31 and Captain Pike knows about it because his school friend joined. DS9 takes place on a remote outpost far away from Starfleet Command so it makes sense they’d be out of the loop. It’s like frontier towns in the U.S. had very little knowledge of the security policies of Washington D.C. (rightfully so, most had zero impact on frontier life).
On top of that, there’s an often overlooked aspect of DS9 and it’s knowledge of Section 31. There are some indications that Sisko was working with knowledge of it in “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges” as he coaxed Bashir into playing along with Sloan. It’s just speculation of course, but since we know Admiral Ross worked with Section 31 and Sisko reported to Ross, it’s entirely likely that Sisko knows more about it than he lets on to Bashir.
@OmicronThetaDelta
I think that’s an overstatement. Tyler, a security officer, knows about Section 31 and Captain Pike knows about it because his school friend joined. DS9 takes place on a remote outpost far away from Starfleet Command so it makes sense they’d be out of the loop. It’s like frontier towns in the U.S. had very little knowledge of the security policies of Washington D.C. (rightfully so, most had zero impact on frontier life).
On top of that, there’s an often overlooked aspect of DS9 and it’s knowledge of Section 31. There are some indications that Sisko was working with knowledge of it in “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges” as he coaxed Bashir into playing along with Sloan. It’s just speculation of course, but since we know Admiral Ross worked with Section 31 and Sisko reported to Ross, it’s entirely likely that Sisko knows more about it than he lets on to Bashir.
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection
@Bold Helmsman
Right. The thing is there isn’t very much Section 31 canon to begin with, so it’s a safe spot for these writers to make new stories without stepping on anyone’s toes.
@Bold Helmsman
Right. The thing is there isn’t very much Section 31 canon to begin with, so it’s a safe spot for these writers to make new stories without stepping on anyone’s toes.
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection
I think it’s a bit of misstep to bring Culber back. Not because I don’t like the character, he was one of the better parts of S1. But my problem is it cuts into the “anyone can die” feeling this series had. Part of what was good last episode with Saru nearly dying was, because Discovery has staked itself as a series not afraid to piss off the audience with big risky decisions like killing regulars off, Saru dying felt like it might be on the table. Now that’s kind of gone and we’re getting this sort of “It’s okay we’ll wish them back with the dragonballs” type of resolution.
Now, to be totally fair, Landry and O’Connell are still dead, as is Lorca (but you never know). And Discovery isn’t the first Trek to do this (Spock, Data, Dax, Sisko?!, Kirk in STID). I just hope this doesn’t become a continuing pattern because Death is Cheap is a rotten soap opera gimmick.
I think it’s a bit of misstep to bring Culber back. Not because I don’t like the character, he was one of the better parts of S1. But my problem is it cuts into the “anyone can die” feeling this series had. Part of what was good last episode with Saru nearly dying was, because Discovery has staked itself as a series not afraid to piss off the audience with big risky decisions like killing regulars off, Saru dying felt like it might be on the table. Now that’s kind of gone and we’re getting this sort of “It’s okay we’ll wish them back with the dragonballs” type of resolution.
Now, to be totally fair, Landry and O’Connell are still dead, as is Lorca (but you never know). And Discovery isn’t the first Trek to do this (Spock, Data, Dax, Sisko?!, Kirk in STID). I just hope this doesn’t become a continuing pattern because Death is Cheap is a rotten soap opera gimmick.
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection
Just boring. Too much going on once again. Can't wait for next week and the next Orville episode.
1.5 stars for this from me.
Just boring. Too much going on once again. Can't wait for next week and the next Orville episode.
1.5 stars for this from me.
Re: ORV S2: Deflectors
It really hasn't been fleshed out yet, but I get the impression they need them as allies because their tech is slightly more advanced and they seem willing to share it. (probably for economic concessions)
I really do think they need a few episodes that focuses on the geo-political aspect of the galaxy as we know little about it.
It really hasn't been fleshed out yet, but I get the impression they need them as allies because their tech is slightly more advanced and they seem willing to share it. (probably for economic concessions)
I really do think they need a few episodes that focuses on the geo-political aspect of the galaxy as we know little about it.
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
Great review, Jammer. I too don’t really need an explanation for every technical difference from this show and the other shows. I would rather they cut that in favor of details contributing to main story they’re trying to tell.
Great review, Jammer. I too don’t really need an explanation for every technical difference from this show and the other shows. I would rather they cut that in favor of details contributing to main story they’re trying to tell.
Re: ORV S2: Deflectors
I thought this was a beautiful episode. It made me evaluate my own prejudices. Powerful ending too.
I thought this was a beautiful episode. It made me evaluate my own prejudices. Powerful ending too.
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
You're talking about a continuation of the same engagement. The ships didn't pull away and declare a cease-fire.
You're talking about a continuation of the same engagement. The ships didn't pull away and declare a cease-fire.
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
Jason R., forget criminal law. Imagine if a foreign warship sailed in proximity of Rockall (UK territorial waters) and started jamming English radio signals. The Royal Navy came to investigate it but her crew was assaulted by people on the warship. Wouldn't there be a pretty heavy case that the Royal navy had a right to retaliate with deadly force?
Jason R., forget criminal law. Imagine if a foreign warship sailed in proximity of Rockall (UK territorial waters) and started jamming English radio signals. The Royal Navy came to investigate it but her crew was assaulted by people on the warship. Wouldn't there be a pretty heavy case that the Royal navy had a right to retaliate with deadly force?
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
I agree it comes down to balancing the interests and in the end we don’t really have enough information to make the best decision. I think we’re supposed to believe Burnham *did* have all the information and she was willing to commit the ritual but still hesitant because it clashed with her personal beliefs.
I agree it comes down to balancing the interests and in the end we don’t really have enough information to make the best decision. I think we’re supposed to believe Burnham *did* have all the information and she was willing to commit the ritual but still hesitant because it clashed with her personal beliefs.
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
But Yair, you’re skipping over the part where even in the best case scenario Saru’s rights are violated. This is something Picard understood about Worf and the Klingons and it’s not something to just gloss over.
So maybe Saru survives but remembers being sedated and he realizes Starfleet didn’t care what he wanted. He goes back to his people and tells them Starfleet can’t always be trusted and suddenly that First Contact the Fedration is hoping for is off the table.
Now, I’m not saying all these things will happen for certain mind you, I just point out the dangers in being cavilier about individual rights.
But Yair, you’re skipping over the part where even in the best case scenario Saru’s rights are violated. This is something Picard understood about Worf and the Klingons and it’s not something to just gloss over.
So maybe Saru survives but remembers being sedated and he realizes Starfleet didn’t care what he wanted. He goes back to his people and tells them Starfleet can’t always be trusted and suddenly that First Contact the Fedration is hoping for is off the table.
Now, I’m not saying all these things will happen for certain mind you, I just point out the dangers in being cavilier about individual rights.
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
@Yair
Good points, but I think saving Saru “for the mission” doesn’t really apply here. One important factor that differntiates Saru from say B’Elanna is that no one in Starfleet appears to know much about Kelpian physiology (they’re a pre-First Contact race) and Saru is a lone refugee. So, even assuming stasis could save Saru someday in the long run, he would be out of commission - certainly for the remainder of this mission - and perhaps years more for Starfleet to figure out how to treat Kelpians in this condition. So I don’t think exigency is a workable justification to violate a species’ rights here.
@Yair
Good points, but I think saving Saru “for the mission” doesn’t really apply here. One important factor that differntiates Saru from say B’Elanna is that no one in Starfleet appears to know much about Kelpian physiology (they’re a pre-First Contact race) and Saru is a lone refugee. So, even assuming stasis could save Saru someday in the long run, he would be out of commission - certainly for the remainder of this mission - and perhaps years more for Starfleet to figure out how to treat Kelpians in this condition. So I don’t think exigency is a workable justification to violate a species’ rights here.
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
@Yair
That thing with that argument is even though soldiers do give up some freedoms from serving they retain certain civil rights that need to be respected by their commander. A commanding officer cannot, for example, order a woman serving under them to get an abortion because pregnancy would interfere with her duty.
Of course we don’t know Starfleet rules so we can’t say for certain what rights are protected or not and you could be correct. But respecting someone’s control over their body seems like a more respectful, more Trek way of handling it, at least in my opinion.
@Yair
That thing with that argument is even though soldiers do give up some freedoms from serving they retain certain civil rights that need to be respected by their commander. A commanding officer cannot, for example, order a woman serving under them to get an abortion because pregnancy would interfere with her duty.
Of course we don’t know Starfleet rules so we can’t say for certain what rights are protected or not and you could be correct. But respecting someone’s control over their body seems like a more respectful, more Trek way of handling it, at least in my opinion.
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
No, Madman, you really should watch it again (or even read the transcript). The thing with “Ethics” was that Picard was willing to let Worf commit ritual suicide. It’s not that he condoned suicide per se, it’s that he respected Worf’s beliefs and one of those beliefs was that living crippled is worse than death for a Klingon. Sisko intervenes in DS9, true, but the solution is horrific as it effectively ends Kurn’s life as Kurn (without consent).
Here, Saru has his own death ritual to give him a dignified end before he goes *mentally insane* and dies anyway. They don’t get into it, but an insane person is most certainly a danger to the crew. What was really the choice here? Does anyone think putting Saru in stasis *against his will* until they find a cure or something is an enlightened way of handling the situation?
No, Madman, you really should watch it again (or even read the transcript). The thing with “Ethics” was that Picard was willing to let Worf commit ritual suicide. It’s not that he condoned suicide per se, it’s that he respected Worf’s beliefs and one of those beliefs was that living crippled is worse than death for a Klingon. Sisko intervenes in DS9, true, but the solution is horrific as it effectively ends Kurn’s life as Kurn (without consent).
Here, Saru has his own death ritual to give him a dignified end before he goes *mentally insane* and dies anyway. They don’t get into it, but an insane person is most certainly a danger to the crew. What was really the choice here? Does anyone think putting Saru in stasis *against his will* until they find a cure or something is an enlightened way of handling the situation?
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon
@brian
Stargazer was referring specifically to critics as in people like Jammer. Indeed your source, Metacritic, lists 0 negative critic reviews for Discovery.
@brian
Stargazer was referring specifically to critics as in people like Jammer. Indeed your source, Metacritic, lists 0 negative critic reviews for Discovery.
Re: DS9 S7: Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang
@Booming
I’m not taking a side on that issue. I’m sure people will and have argued that in the 90s this white/black message was timely. Nevertheless, it hits a different distinctly different note than the Human/Cardassaian one. I hope you can appreciate the difference and I apologize if I’m not being clear somehow.
@Booming
I’m not taking a side on that issue. I’m sure people will and have argued that in the 90s this white/black message was timely. Nevertheless, it hits a different distinctly different note than the Human/Cardassaian one. I hope you can appreciate the difference and I apologize if I’m not being clear somehow.
Re: DS9 S7: Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang
The O’Brien-Cardassian-racism comparison is a false one, anyway. There, O’Brien’s racism is allegorical, so it appeals to every viewer and every viewer can appreciate the situation on some level.
Sisko’s complaint about racism here is specifically a black issue with certain real-world repercussions, i.e. white people should feel guilty about the past. Effectively, it’s a message that divides the audience.
The O’Brien-Cardassian-racism comparison is a false one, anyway. There, O’Brien’s racism is allegorical, so it appeals to every viewer and every viewer can appreciate the situation on some level.
Sisko’s complaint about racism here is specifically a black issue with certain real-world repercussions, i.e. white people should feel guilty about the past. Effectively, it’s a message that divides the audience.
Re: ORV S2: All the World Is Birthday Cake
It was an entertaining episode, but there's no way the planet's leaders would just let Kelly and Bortus go, after they murdered loads of their people.
It was an entertaining episode, but there's no way the planet's leaders would just let Kelly and Bortus go, after they murdered loads of their people.
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light
To be fair, the events of "Profit and Lace" did bleed over into future Ferengi storylines and "Profit and Lace" itself was a continuation of the less-than-stellar "Ferengi Love Songs".
To be fair, the events of "Profit and Lace" did bleed over into future Ferengi storylines and "Profit and Lace" itself was a continuation of the less-than-stellar "Ferengi Love Songs".
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light
I too have given up on the show, and it's free to watch on Netflix. I'm still watching The Orville and I hope the Picard spin-off is good.
I too have given up on the show, and it's free to watch on Netflix. I'm still watching The Orville and I hope the Picard spin-off is good.
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light
@Artymiss
14. I’m curious who’s directing next week, though. Has that info been released?
@Artymiss
14. I’m curious who’s directing next week, though. Has that info been released?
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light
Do people seriously think - the many, dislike this show because of skin colour or women in command? Or diversity? Hmm, maybe some bigoted idiots think like that, but the majority of us are moaning about the show because it's painfully mediocre! DISCO is slow with bad casting and poor characters (for the most part.) The only thing Discovery has going for it, is its incredible visuals (not just for a TV show, but movie quality visuals.) And Pike... And yes, Pike is a white male, but it's the actor, the actor has presence! Ala Patrick Stewart. He is perfectly cast.
Michael isn't clicking with the audience for whatever reason. Maybe it's the actress or the writing or both. Maybe it's because Sonequa Martin-Green always looks miserable. She might have been on The Walking Dead for too long, same expression.
This show needs more hope, more idealism, more exploring, more fun! It doesn't need to be so po-faced all the time. It needs to explore its cast more and give us a reason to root for them. For example: what do we know about the officer with the metal attachment on her face? Nothing! I don't even know / remember her name. There is very little character development and the entire thing has the wrong tone. It's far too serious which often comes across as incoherent in its techno babble / boring.
I really hope the Stewart spin-off is better than this. Then again, it has Stewart.
Do people seriously think - the many, dislike this show because of skin colour or women in command? Or diversity? Hmm, maybe some bigoted idiots think like that, but the majority of us are moaning about the show because it's painfully mediocre! DISCO is slow with bad casting and poor characters (for the most part.) The only thing Discovery has going for it, is its incredible visuals (not just for a TV show, but movie quality visuals.) And Pike... And yes, Pike is a white male, but it's the actor, the actor has presence! Ala Patrick Stewart. He is perfectly cast.
Michael isn't clicking with the audience for whatever reason. Maybe it's the actress or the writing or both. Maybe it's because Sonequa Martin-Green always looks miserable. She might have been on The Walking Dead for too long, same expression.
This show needs more hope, more idealism, more exploring, more fun! It doesn't need to be so po-faced all the time. It needs to explore its cast more and give us a reason to root for them. For example: what do we know about the officer with the metal attachment on her face? Nothing! I don't even know / remember her name. There is very little character development and the entire thing has the wrong tone. It's far too serious which often comes across as incoherent in its techno babble / boring.
I really hope the Stewart spin-off is better than this. Then again, it has Stewart.
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