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Startrekwatcher
Fri, May 22, 2020, 12:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I agree Trek should get back to basics. A starship having weekly standalone adventures. Jeopardy. Sci fi plot

I’m so tired of these season long mystery box arcs. It’s lazy writing.

Next fire Kurtzman and all the current hacks on the writing staff ie everyone

Make new writers watch TOS and TNG and remember why those episodes were fun, interesting, involving and entertaining. Teach them about a beginning middle and end

Let them know it’s okay to let a scene breathe
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Startrekwatcher
Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 8:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: I, Borg

Star Trek Picard didn’t do anything interesting with element from this episode or Descent. They could have but mainly just used Hugh as a familiar face and nothing more than a gratuitous prop. He was totally wasted on PIC. I’m going to pretend PIC never happened in my personal canon
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Startrekwatcher
Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 12:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I’ve rewatched over last 30 years all of TNG Ds9 voyager episodes at least 30 times. I never tire of them. Even the ones I’m not crazy about carry a certain nostalgia. I’ve rewatched all of ToS and ENT in last 20 years at least a dozen times. I never tire of tos first two seasons or ent’s first season, the xindi arc episodes or season four

I quit DIS in first season and never looked back. First time ever happened with a trek series.

With PIC it was nice getting some new material in the 24th century after two decades without. But truth is while I watched the first season with the exception of the pilot and nepenthe I doubt I’ll ever revisit it. The dangers of writers going all in on a big epic narrative is that if it doesn’t ultimately go anywhere interesting and doesn’t have a satisfying payoff then I don’t care to rewatch it. And PIC let every thread it launched fizzle by the end. I found Absolute Candor, Stardust City Rag, The Inpossible Box, Broken Pieces minus the bits of mythology and exposition provided and the finale to be outright 2 star loser episodes I have no interest in revisiting.
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Startrekwatcher
Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 10:37am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I don’t think going back to episodic format is going to help either DIS or PIC because the fundamentals are what is the problem—the writers and writing

They’ve attended the school of “ADHD and everything including the sink” way of writing. They don’t worry about focusing on a few ideas and developing well. They just jump from one to the next abruptly

They don’t think out a beginning , middle and end.

The only thing having to write standalones will do is force them to come up with an immediate payoff rather than letting it linger til the eleventh hour

I myself would prefer standalones again. They’re more rewatchable than arcs and it allows variety and something new to look forward to each week

And if you look at this season the writers didn’t have ten hours of arc material
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 6:07am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Oh and just remembered some more crappy shows—invasion, the 4400, dollhouse

Jericho and terminator the sarah Connor chronicles weren’t too bad
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 6:03am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

V 2.0 is another one to avoid.

A few months ago I tried B5 I thought it was garbage. Yes it has a well thought out mythology but the mythology itself is really corny. Bad VFX. Uninteresting characters
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 6:00am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Mike

Then you should Also avoid Alcatraz, Wayward Pines, the leftovers and twin peaks 2.0, life on mars, Star Trek
discovery. True blood was a pretty crappy show too.

A lot of these have in common Abrams or Lindelof or Kurtzman all students of the Mystery box and/or artsy pretentiousness—the Leftovers was really bad about this

Supernatural was a pretty decent scary show in the beginning for the first few seasons with self contained overarching season long arcs with standalone format until it veered into meta overkill and camp
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 3:24am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

For all the hype I hear about great sff in last two decades i found most of it convoluted garbage

I’d much rather watch TOS/TNG/DS9 and evenVoyager and ENT, X-Files than a lot of what I’ve heard people talking about

About the only things I would rewatch are Lost S1/4/5, Heroes season one, BSG s1 and some stretches of season three and four

Most of what came out were uninspired convoluted Mystery box shows—vanished, surface, , helix, 12 monkeys, the event, manifest, daybreak, flash forward, fringe, sleepy hollow, the expanse, caprica, blindspot,

I thought dr who was awful Star Gate Atlantis was awful.
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 10:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Golem not hole
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 10:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Even of Brent Spiner had no desire to play Data again they could have still had him be placed in the hole and look just like BrentSpiner sans Data makeup. He could have stayed behind on Coppelius to help his children learn from him all the insights he had about the human race from the years he was in Starfleet and aboard the Enterprise—similar to Odo rejoining the Great Link to help changelings stop fearing solids.

I doubt the writers will ever revisit Coppelius and even if they did Brent could play Data as a human with no need to worry about how he looks

The La Sirena could have flown off into the great depths of space. With Soji part of the crew the android representative sent by Coppelius the android characters is checked off the box

And I still think it was a bad idea to have Pocards Irumodic Syndrome play out in one season. It screams to be one of those series spanning threads. I mean rumors are Patrick Stewart wants to do around three seasons. So gradually over the life of the series we could have witnessed the symptoms start and progress towards a steady decline near the end of the series. And each season in the background could be Picard getting out living checking off things on his Bucket List as far as adventures, planets to visit, old friends likeGeordi or Guinan he wants to see one last time

But no the writers rushed it
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Startrekwatcher
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 11:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

There’s no excuse with the budget they have, the salaries they receive, the prep time they get that they can’t come up with better writing. If the season arc is just a MacGuffin then jettison it and do episodic shows

If the arc has too many elements to do justice to them trim it down and focus only a few and do them justice

I don’t buy this notion it’s alright to have the audience invest in these mysteries or plot threads only to at the 11th hour do and about-face and say it really wasn’t about those things it was always just about this one scene.
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Startrekwatcher
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 11:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I agree with a lot of things Jammer says in his review. The Picard/Data scene is four stars. But I’m not willing to cut the show and writers the kind of slack he is for the poor pacing and uninspired writing in the rest of the hour or the rest of the season.

The Picard/Data scene is just a few minutes long. Kudos for the writers being able to be good writers long enough to script that but the idea that as long as they give us one good scene that it’s okay to meander and provide half-realized ideas and falter on payoffs by giving us one good scene then I strongly strongly disagree.

Good writers should be able to do it all and give us the Picard/Data scene. I’m never going to budge on expecting more from the show
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Startrekwatcher
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 5:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

And for all the talk about shorter seasons making better television and serialization is better storytelling shows like DIS, PIC and non Trek examples—Manifest, Helix, V 2.0, The Event, Life on Mars, the 4400,Daybreak to name a few show that to be demonstrably to be hogwash I’m sure there are others I’m glossing over that can be added to that list

So for all the talk of more time to write and less grueling production schedules I find that 26 episode seasons and episodic shows under a fast paced schedule worked better and that speaks more to the taker of the writers and show runners back then like Michael Piller

As far as these MysteryBox seasons go the best ones imo were
Heroes S1 which was pretty much a near perfect example of this storytelling format and I might add did so doing 24 episodes
Lost S4/5 again excellent examples of how to do well Mystery Box seasons if you’re absolutely determined to do them

And while the third season of ENT itself was too drawn out and the arc itself could have been told in probably 12 episodes rather than drawing it out to24, id argue the xindi arc was much more interesting, entertaining and compelling as well as creating a much better mythology surrounding the Xindi and sphere builders than the one on PIC with theBorg, Romulans, synthetic alliance. It also resolved its mysteries and threads with pretty strong payoffs and resolutions
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Startrekwatcher
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 4:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I think the first season of TNG is too easily dismissed

It did a great job of feeling like a successor to TOS in terms of the ship design, uniforms, tech like holodeck, having a klingon serving etc.

It gave insight into the geopolitical state 24th century and what advances had been made. It felt very futuristic with ideas like cured common cold and cancer

It utilized familiar TOS aliens like Klingons and Romulans while creating new interesting aliens of its own with the Bynars, Harada, Conspiracy aliens, Q, Ferengi

It had a wonderful sense of awe and imagination really embracing cool sci fi ideas and fun action adventure

I realize I’m in the minority but I thought there were a lot of good entertaining episodes to be found like Naked Now, Code of Honor, The Last Outpost, 1100101, the Battle, Lonely Among Us, Datalore, Arsenal of Freedom, Conspiracy, Neutral Zone, When the Bough Breaks to name a few. Even the weaker offerings weren’t awful like Angel One, HomeSoil. True TNG didn’t strive to do some epic season long arc. It just set out to tell fun entertaining hour long standalones but bottom line I found them more entertaining

I also thought ENT for all the missteps it would have its first season was pretty solid. I thought pretty much its first 11 episodes were decent along with Dear Doctor and shuttlepod one if not good to great doing a good job conveying a more realistic touch to space exploration

It did wobble in the middle but picked up towards the end with episodes like Detained and Fallen Hero

DS9 relies too much on TNG in season one. The standalones are hit or miss but mostly miss with crap like The Storyteller, Move Along Home,Q-Less, battle lines, if wishes were horses, the forsaken, dramatis personae

There were some good TNG like episodes— Past Prologue, Babel, Dax, , The Passenger, in the hands of the prophets

Then a mediocre stuff like Vortex, The Nagus. That werent bad but just not very engrossing

VOY has the best pilot but then as a series it was pretty much downhill from there. Season ine was definitely a mix bag. The good was most definitely Kate Mulgrew and Janeway. There were some decent outings like Time and Again, Cathexis, Faces, Phage, State of Flux. I enjoyed Seska and the kazon

But there were a lot of underwhelming episodes—Jetrel, learning curve, parallax, ex post facto, the Beowulf Holodeck episode,

The problem with PIC is it had a good start with the first three episodes and introducing plot elements but once they left Earth they left behind the most interesting characters and started dragging things out and when they finally started to get somewhere the payoffs were pretty much bad from theBorg cube Mystery to the alliance of synthetics to the zhat vash resolution. The La Sirena crew did Nothing for me

The sad thing is the shoe has interesting ideas but these writers didn’t know what to do with them in an interesting way

DIS was so bad I couldn’t finish the first season and haven’t watched it since with no regrets only trek series that ever happened with
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Startrekwatcher
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 4:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

First season rankings best to worst

TNG
ENT
TOS
VOY/DS9
PIC


DIS
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Startrekwatcher
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 3:09am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

These writers come from the Abrams/Kurtzman/lindelof school of tv writing. They get hung up structure and playing games with the audience that they can’t sit still and craft a well thought out story be it an episode long or a season long one

I don’t care if they do a serialized show or episodic. Just be fresh and entertaining. The writers seem to think viewers require everything including the kitchen sink thrown in and constantly jumping from one plot point to the next to be happy. Maybe that’s true for some audiences maybe that’s true of the majority. I don’t have a pulse on tv viewers these days

if the writers would just work with fewer concepts and ideas and develop them rather than cramming things in and giving them shirt shrift that would help and they could focus on giving better payoffs

And they can still do a serialized season arc but be more Hill Street Blues and less Lost in that approach.
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Throwing ideas out there.

Might have been more interesting to have an arc about Romulans displaced by supernova plotting to return and reclaim their ancestral homeland of Vulcan

Might have been more interesting if doing an arc about banning synthetics and synthetic rights might start season out with revelation in the time of PICARD all artificial life banned and androids, holograms like The Doctor and former Borg have banded together to fight the injustice

Might have been more interesting if a group
Of Romulan refugees stumbled upon the disabled cube and used it as a place to live and in the process of being there created a religion or cult seeing something in the Borg that would provide a path forward and rebirth of their devastated society from the supernova
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 1:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

“stardust city rag” could have in hindsight been more of a relevant show to the season if they had tied icheb’s death to the fact that Byjazel was procuring Borg parts for Maddox’s efforts to circumvent the the thousand years Agnes said it would take to be able to create an organic synth. All the pieces were there had writers chose to use them.

Maddox mentioned not being able to repay Byjazel, I thought he was referring to her procuring Borg parts for his research and byjazel should have been killed by Seven when she found this out
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 12:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

A couple more things about the season that bothered me :

The season was structured that each episode started with flashback in teaser. In “impossible Box” a Borg heavy episode where Picard arrived to Artifact I think it would have been better for flashback to have been to the encounter between Ramda’s ship the Shaenor and the cube. That way rather than spending the whole season with Borg being static threats we would at least get to see Borg full on in collective assimilation mode and would have been cool seeing the collapse as Romulans have been assimilated starting to spread and drones and cube going haywire before being disabled and severed from the collective

And for all the talk by make up artists working on Trek now about working on Borg we didn’t get one full on updated drone just people after their implants and tech removed
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 12:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Another thing I didn’t much care for Was the fact the writers didn’t mine Picard’s irumodic syndrome arc of his decline over couple seasons which I thought they were doing. There was no reason it had to be resolved by the end of this season It could have hung over the series always in the background informing things
Oh and I’d give the finale 2 stars. It’s watchable and there are times when suspenseful and entertaining but overall it wasn’t as satisfying as could have been. Which also applies to the season itself which I’d give a C

The writers didn’t have enough material to sustain the ten episodes and the times the writers attempted to tell standalone type stories they were bad like “ Absolure Candor” and “Stardust City Rag”.

The writers could have condensed the season by keeping the first three episodes getting to free cloud and Maddox in episode four and focusing that hour to Maddox, agnes Picard catching up etc. since the Borg thread was extraneous and went over well trodden ground(we have seen liberated Borg before with Hugh, four seasons of Seven on VOYAGER, Unity Borg, descent Borg and STP didn’t do anything interesting with them here) the next episode could have been set on some sort of Romulan facility instead of a cube where Soji was located so picard could rescue her, keep Nepenthe then Jump to the season finale two parter. Something like that rather than lot of pointless romantic trysts, long drawn out scenes involving holograms etc
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 11:42am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Daniel.

I agree with what you are saying and I thought the goodbye scene between Data and picard was the best part of and most poignant thing in the finale. I just think if they wanted that message then not even a part of data consciousness should have been a possibility and that Data was completely gone in nemesis and Picard would just have to live with unresolved feelings of regret like we all do who lose someone. As humans we don’t get the chance to resolve these things the way the writers let Picard do. But yes the way the scene was filmed wirh blue skies playing in a drab grey setting and Seeing Data gradually decompose before our eyes was impactful and well done

That’s why I felt if they want that don’t open door to possibility for resurrection by saying part of Data exists up until last night cause then the obvious question is if you resurrect Picard why not resurrect Data, give him a. Ticking clock like they did Picard
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 11:35am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I was also disappointed the writers didn’t do more to provide insight into the state of the Alpha Quadrant this season. Afterall it’s been twenty years since visited this time frame. It might have been nice to do some namedropping which these writers love to do and flesh things out a bit by say suggesting part of the reason the Federation has withdrawn and become so isolationist and not quite so gung ho on being explorers like they did during TNG was due partially to
The war with Dominion and repeated confrontations with Powerful alien threats like the Borg and Dominion leaving the Federation believing it’s better to focus on rebuilding and focusing their energies at home rather than sending ships further out into the galaxy with the possibility of encountering more hostile groups like the Borg and the dominion

This kind of applies to Seven too. I was disappointed we didn’t get any interesting backstory of Seven and her last twenty years. I also think a more interesting role for her instead of vigilante would have been serving as part of the reclamation team. Or Perhaps going around liberating drones from the collective helping them regain their individuality. Would have also loved to hear some namedropping of her voyager crew members to satisfy the nostalgia

And if I were the writers I would have totally ignored the whole nova destroying Romulus but from JJ trek. Watching Picard this season wouldn’t have known Romulans suffered such a devastating setback. Or if writers wanted to devastate Romulan Empire and have it tie with season arc as well as the cube thread they should have just gone with Maurice Hurley’s original plan for Borg to destroy/assimilate the Romulans from
TNG season two.

The few things that did work this season were Picard and Patrick Stewart; the time spent on Earth in the first three episodes be it on the vineyard or Starfleet or Daystrom, the Romulan couple who worked for Picard, Number One, Riker, Troi, Kestra, Soji and the Android mythology

I liked how the writers chose to draw on The Android mythology and develop it. How all that unfolded by starting out with Dajhe and then soji and slowly peeling back the layers with the ban and then late in the season eventually revealing that there’s a culture of androids with different models with an actual homeworld
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 11:12am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

TNG is my favorite Trek series and I was ready to return to the 24th century for a long time after years of TOS redux by imagine less writers. So when first heard of Star Trek Picard I was excited but my excitement was also tempered by the fact that I knew the writers and producers behind the series weren’t great

But I went into it with an open mind avoiding spoilers and messageboards until last night's finale. And I must say sadly that I pretty much got what I was expecting even though was hoping for much better

The whole season was uneven and a mixed bag which has always been my experience with these Mystery Box type shows. Some intriguing beginnings and mysteries that usually end up ultimately not having the imagination or satisfying payoff I envision. Sad when writers who get paid big bucks to do this professionally because in theory they’re suppose to be at the top of their craft can’t come up with something more intriguing or cooler than the rank and file fan can

So was the case this season on Picard I thought. I mean if you step back there were several good ideas here. Things like picking up on the recurring thread from TNG of Data and Maddox trying to create more Soong androids like Data and Data feeling a sense of isolation by being the only one of his kind. That seems an appropriate thing to revisit and seeing the culmination of a thriving culture of human like synthetics with a world of their own seems like a worthwhile payoff

But then You have the things that didn’t work but actually had potential to work in the right hands

Top of my list easily was the inclusion of the Borg. I was surprised by the writers including the Borg but excited. There was plenty to initially be excited about in the beginning—the return of Jonathan Del Arco as Hugh, free reign on a disabled cube set for a full season, Seven of Nine but then writers botched all that big time

No interesting insight into Hugh’s last 25 years since Descent. Hugh was barely used and ended up being killed off in a way lacking any emotional resonance

Then Seven shows up but initially in a lame standalone story until finally she is brought onboard the cube lare in the season. But by that time Hugh’s dead so no potentially interesting interaction between the two most iconic former Borg

And If there was one story left in the Borg I figured it was an origin story. Here was a chance for the writers using the study and investigation of a deactivated Borg cube where they have free reign on without fear of the Borg coming to retrieve it because of the submatrix collapse coupled with the cube setting being a season long thread —to give the audience some new interesting revelations and insights into the Borg Collective, their ship, their Queen(an element fans have been debating about ever since her debut)and their history and the writers don’t do any of that.

Instead we get shit like the floors of a cube are so slick you can slide barefoot across them. Or we get moments where it seems like we are on the verge of getting that cool new insight and having new layers explored on a cube or about the queen and instead the writers vis the characters like Seven basically say, “ do you want me to tell you more about the queen cell or do you want me to retake the ship?”

Then there were moments where okay I started to
Accept I wasn’t going to get new insight to add to the Borg mythology and was settling g into some exciting developments such as Seven taking control of the drones and powering back up the cube for a battle with the Romulans only to have the drones jettisoned and things to fizzle like they did in “Broken Pieces”. Then same thing happened in part I last week of season finale where cube shows up only to promptly crash before anything interesting was allowed to even begin

Frankly with how the Borg part of the story played out in full I would have been happier with the Borg not being tacked onto the season. Even though it seemed initially it would at some point dovetail with the Romulan and android pieces it never did. And sadly it could have by tying the Borg to the ancient aliens and admonition in some way perhaps offering a Borg Origin story given the timeframes would match up.

Up until last nights season finale I actually thought that was where they were heading. What with the Borg being synthetics, the Romulans operation on the cube and the fact the writers kept referring to the cube as the Artifact—a term that for me has a meaning signifying something unique about this cube, a sense that it was very old. Could it have been one of the earliest or one of the very first Borg cubes? And that the Romulans/zhat vash were studying it to help them
Unlock secrets and have more knowledge in their mission. Could they have even deliberately set out to capture it and cause a submatrix collapse intentionally knowing full well by assimilating Ramda the cube would be theirs ? But I’m the final analysis it seems Borg werent tied to Destroyers story. Ramda wasn’t sent on purpose to capture cube as part of a well executed devious daring plan but instead was just serendipity a zhat vash shuttle just so happened to encounter a cube.

And that trend of exciting ideas that ended before that even had a chance to develop into something interesting continued last night in the finale where just as it seemed the writers were going to pull the trigger and bring into the canvas the alliance of synthetics setting them up as story material for season two the writers close the book on them land send them
Back from wherever they came

Another missed opportunity was when Soong showed up. I thought at first it was Data. Afterall they had his neuron they could reconstitute all his memories and put him In a synthetic body and would have been the fulfillment of what he always wanted which was to be human. Instead it turned out to be Soong. Data could have spent the remainder of his days teaching his children all that he knew about humans to avoid what almost happened here from again

Another example of the frustrating knack of this season to seem to be building up to something satisfying only to fizzle in mere seconds was the romulans confrontation with the synthetics and starfleet. Not for one minute did I buy Oh who devoted her life to a group who spent literally centuries trying to prevent the second coming of the destroyers to withdraw and move on simply because Soji reactivated beacon. What about the other synthetics? What about the beacon that could be restarted at a later date ?
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Startrekwatcher
Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 2:58am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: The Neutral Zone

Re: original Borg plan

The original idea was to open season two with the Enterprise discovering the Borg has destroyed the Romulan Empire and the crew discovering that the Romulans found a way to destroy the Borg cube

The crew were to run into more Borg and would need to figure out how the Romulans destroyed the first cube
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 7:03am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Second Season Recap

The writers were doing so well in season one then they just seemed to not care any more. This and voyager season three are really some of the weakest seasons in Trek

Most episodes were uninspired. And I came away with feeling of Been There Done That, Been There Done That Better

Nothing new. Nothing entertaining .

Dawn and The Breach are pale imitations of TNG The Enemy

precious Cargo a poor rehash of TNG Perfect Mare

Vanishing Point weak copy of The Next Phase/Realm of Fear

Regeneration retread of Q Who and Identity Crisis

The apathy from this season doomed the series
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