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Startrekwatcher
Fri, Feb 15, 2019, 4:54am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Fifth Season Recap

I like Ira Behr as a writer. I thought he was the series’ best writer. But I didn’t much care for the direction he took DS9 In after Piller left

Behr began to step back from the kind of sci fi stories that made TOS and TNG a lot of fun and that DS9 told in its first three seasons. He began to make the show basically a modern show with mundane stories that any non sci fi show told. We got increased romances, more dumb comedy, births, weddings, odd couple schtick etc . Stories that could be told anywhere and has been and a lot of times better whether the war angle in Nor the Battle, father/son issues etc Nothing was unique to its sci fi setting. That for me mad a lot of episodes ho hum. Plus there were too many dumb comedies and romance episodes. Worf and Dax did nothing for me

I also didn’t like the shift to making episodes showcases for each character. I missed the family crew element from TNG. Probably not surprising my favorite episode utilized the entire crew and a clever sci fi premise in “Children of Time “

One thing I did like was finally refocusing on the Dominion and advancing things after spinning wheels for a year and a half

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Startrekwatcher
Fri, Feb 15, 2019, 4:44am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: Second Season Recap

Season two and seven are my favorite ds9 seasons. Season three is my third favorite


I like this season because it recovered nicely from the awful first season. I also enjoy it because I find it very consistently entertaining and the most TNG and atrek DS9 would get due to Michael Piller being head writer still before Behr took over. There was still that nice intangible Trek vibe permeating the episodes. There was a nice variety of stories. The circle trilogy was excellent political intrigue along with The Maquis There were a nice amount of sci fi stories. The Dominion foreshadowing kept them nicely ominous and intriguing.


The series was nicely low key. This was a period before diving into larger more epic things. I appreciated the intimate feeling of the stories. Big grand things are fun but once in a while it’s nice just to deal with immediate personal stories.
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 3:16am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Sixth Season Recap

I thought season six was pretty underwhelming overall

Sure the Occupation arc was strong but 5 episodes-discounting the Boeing Sons and Daughters- isn’t enough to compensate for the other 21 episodes

And even the arc had problems such as the aforementioned weak Sons and Daughters, chickening out on Odo joining the Founders after spending 3 episodes building towards that, the disappointing conclusion with the Peophets swooping in saving the day, the only death being Ziyal which for me carried zero weight given the boring cypher she had always been. And the constant recasting of her didn’t help to build an attachment

Another problem with the season was after Sacrifice of Angels the rest of the season pretty much sidelined the War in favor of standalone

One of the risks of not going all in on an arc by being purely a serialized series is you have to make the standalone you do as compelling or entertaining as the arc you are taking a break from otherwise the audience will be clamoring to get back to the arc


Unfortunately the writers were unable to pull that off. Instead I found most of the episodes mediocre or awful. I think one problem was an emphasis on fluff or romance neither of which is the show's Strengths

DS9 had a bad habit of telling rather recycled tired stories that could be told on any show sci fi or not.

I mean You Cordially are Invited is a basic wedding show and Worf/Dax are no Mulder/Scully when it comes to an involving romance.

Waltz was merely a story of a dictator. Been there done that. Nothing new here.

Far beyond the stars Is your basic racism
Episode. The only things that made it slightly different was involving sci fi writers and the attempt to justify its existence with some lame hint that it was the result of the Prophets which didn’t help the episode. In fact it should have been dropped and just done the story as a purely standalone one time type story

Change of Heart started out possibly having intriguing implications with the defector but that was ultimately treated as nothing more than a throwaway MacGuffin. Instead we are treated to “ riveting”
worf and Dax “Love” story. Again I can get romance from a soap opera with more emotional resonance than with these two. Trek sucks at romance and TNag thankfully mostly avoided it. Then we get another pointless B plot with Bashir trying to end Quark winning streak. Another less than interesting idea and again very mundane

His Way again fails to tell a sff story. Instead it rehashes 60s film staples and couches another less than involving romance in it. This time between Kira and Odo featuring colloquial language, long dull musical interludes etc

The season was very disappointing for me. I enjoyed only about half the episodes and shockingly enough most centered on Quark

I prefer tng and voy seasons six to ds9 honestly
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Startrekwatcher
Sun, Feb 10, 2019, 7:18am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Statistical Probabilities

2.5 stars. Fair episode

I am not a big fan of Bashir. The character is extremely annoying and Siddig’s acting is not up to par. He and Jadzia least interesting characters played by the two weakest links in the cast

But for the most part he wasn’t to bad in this episode except the scene in Quark’s when he was being a drama queen at the dabo table and bringing everyone down.

The Jack Pack we’re sufficient plot devices

Was glad to see a plot and it ties to the war. I’ll admit I was unsure how it would play out once the group had knocked out Bashir. The ending was just okay.
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Startrekwatcher
Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 12:40pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

Hill Street Blues
St elsewhere
Dallas
Falcon crest
Melrose place
Nypd blue
Daytime soaps
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Startrekwatcher
Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 10:40am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

@iceman

Serialized storytelling was very common in the 90s and even the 80s. And not just serialization but heavily serialized storytelling where every single episode was about the season long arc. No standalones.

Well we will have to disagree about Moore.

I thought a lot of his stuff was awful or mediocre

House of Quark dumb
Life Support awful
Par’Mach awful
Our Man Bashir mediocre
Sons of Mogh meh
Valiant awful
for the cause very average
Waltz boring. I wasn’t one of those fans who thought Dukat was riveting
You are cordially invited mediocre
Dr Bashir I presume awful B plot. Mediocre A plot
Soldiers of the Empire Boring recycled Klingin drivel
Change of Heart boring

I thought Rocks and Shoals was decent but very very overrated. Most of the episode is very basic
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Feb 7, 2019, 4:44am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

Behr did an admirable job mostly on DS9 but I wouldn’t want him or Moore back on Trek. They are not happy with the parameters Trek has. They want to be as anti-Trek as possible. Plus I’m not crazy about what I’ve seen from them as showrunners on the 4400 or BSG. And Ron Moore wasn’t a great of a writer on DS9. He wrote some awful stuff on his own. He did better when working with other folks story ideas. I liked his work much more on TNG but again that’s probably because Michael Piller was there to supervise him and most of his efforts there were teleplays from outside writers ideas.

I’m not sure bringing any former Trek person back is the solution. Piller has passed away. Jeri Taylor was an awful show runner just look at TNG-7 and VOY -3. Ken Biller wasn’t that great when running voy season 7 and he came up with Endgame. Maybe Manny Corp. the Reeves-Stevenses. Maybe Brannon Braga. Yes I said it !

But it’s clear despite all the proclamations by the current crop of writers on DIS of being Trek fans they simply don’t get Trek. Despite the sci fi trappings and prosthetics on the aliens the other series at least felt real but all the nu Trek with all its glossy fast paving and excess of CGI feels very artificial and fake tome
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Feb 7, 2019, 4:34am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

I’m burnt out on the whole grim BSG/ convoluted serialization LOST approach to tv

Here’s an idea instead of embracing the excessive gimmicky storytelling approach how about getting back to basics. I think Trek works best with a modest ensemble of likable characters, stand-alone episodes, an optimistic idealized future and telling a variety of low key intimate stories from character dramas to high concept sff to mysteries to political intrigue.

I miss episodes that had a beginning, a middle and an end with a nice beat bow on it. They don’t have to be deep or thoughtful in fact most of Trek is action adventure and plain simple good old fun. I think that’s why TOS and TNG are the most popular. Each week we got something different story wise. They embraced the sense of exploration and the unknown.

I’m not opposed to serialized Trek. In fact, I thought stuff like the Circle trilogy, the Occuparion arc and the Final Chapter were quite involving and some of the best stuff DS9 and Trek did. But those arcs followed a much different style of serialization than contemporary shows do. It was less about gaming the audience and holding their cards and more about simply giving the material room to properly be explored and developed. Nowadays it’s treated much more like a big narrative puzzle with stuff held off screen, deliberately left ambiguous so you can read whatever into a scene and about cliffhanger endings for the water cooler letting the audience spin wild theories

And just my personal preference but if aTrek series is going to do serialized storytelling I would much prefer it go all in. I don’t like shows that try to be a hybrid by either mixing standalone and arc elements within a single episode or that tell a few standalone here then go to arc material. That was one of the frustrating things about DS9. Its arc stuff was much more interesting and entertaining than its filler that I’d have rather it just been only serialized the way a lot of older prime time dramas used to be.
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Feb 7, 2019, 3:40am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Sacrifice of Angels

And the arc was clearly building up to and setting up the trajectory of Odo joining the Founder and they should have followed through on his betrayal

And one more thing about using the Peophets. It was most certainly cheap and unsatisfying. A superbeing or group of superbeings even if part of the series from the beginning coming in and saving the day is lazy writing. I could only imagine how much TNG The Bedt of Both Worlds would have fallen flat hadQ-yet another superbeing part of a series from
The pilot -had snapped his fingers and poof! When the cube at the end of Part Two That’s exactly what happened in Sacrifice of Angels and no amount of debating is going to alter that reality
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Feb 7, 2019, 3:35am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Sacrifice of Angels

What I wanted was neither the Peophets vanishing g the Dominion fleet nor Rom disabling the weapons in time. What I wanted was the fleet to come through.

The show had become Willing to shake things up and do the unthinkable. Having the fleet come through and turn the tide against the Federation would have been fantastic.

I never and don’t buy into this notion the Federation can’t fall or have a major setback. Up until the series final I had no idea if the Dominion would win or lose the war or how badly the Federation would be

Plus having the fleet come through would provide much more compelling arc based storytelling specific and unique for Ds9 than the mediocre standalone and aimless storytelling the rest of season six wallowed in
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 6:19pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

Riker’s Beard

Re: no show is consistent

I happen to think TNG was pretty consistently good especially in seasons 3-5. And this was back when shows were doing 26 episodes a season. There were a few weak episodes but I find it overall quite consistently entertaining.


The problem nowadays with serialized storytelling is the fact it’s caught in the whole gimmicky long con/mystery box format. There’s nothing wrong with serialized storytelling. Contrary to some’s belief it is only a recent phenomenon, it has been used to entertaining effect for decades in prime time and daytime dramas. Now if writers would be a little more Hill Street Blues and a little less LOST or Fringe when it comes to serialized storytelling style they’d be better off but I unfortunately don’t see that happening anytime soon



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Startrekwatcher
Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 3:11am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

I enjoyed DS9 but not nearly as much as TNG. I think DS9 veered to often into stories that could have been done on a non sci fi show for the most part with a focus on romances, comedies and its propensity for filler B plots at times, too much campy mirror universe

It didn’t embrace its Trek roots nearly as much as it should have.

The best stuff it did was in seasons 2/3 when Piller was in charge. Lots of meaty political stuff, fun sci fi plots. Action adventure. In the later seasons outside of the dominion war it was uneven with parodies, romantic comedies, weaker writing, war cliches

Voy had the problem of a bland group of characters with exception of Janeway Seven and the Doctor. The writing was pretty bad. It didn’t successfully capture the sense of wonder, new life and exploration as TNG did

I still think TNG is the best series. I think it has the best cast chemistry, most consistent writing, best track record at using TOS aliens at the same time creating their own and it did the best job at story variety giving us character dramas, allegories, action adventure, high concept and mysteries
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Startrekwatcher
Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 11:08am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: In Purgatory's Shadow

3 stars

The episode was a mixed bag

I could care less about the family dynamics of Dukat and Ziyal-who is a useless character. Or Dukat’s pissiness towards Kira. Dax is as annoying as ever and I had to fast forward through the Worf Dax goodbye scene. I never cared for Tain as a character. I was totally indifferent to him in all his appearances. And I can’t say the fact he turns out to be Garak’s father did much for me. Very neutral

The garak worf stuff on the runabout was pretty decent. Things finally perked me up and drew me on once the dominion fleet was revealed and garak and worf were captured. Although I’m not sure I entirely could buy the idea of the dominion keeping prisoners as opposed to killing them

I was floored by the Bashir twist and Martok. Great deal of suspense with what the changeling was up to
Loved the Borg mention and bringing in Lenara as a nice bit of continuity
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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 8:23am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Assignment

3 stars

Very fun and entertaining hour. Liked how Eom was featured. Rosalind Chao was great as a possessed Keiko. The episide did good job maintains suspense and curiosity as to what the modifications would end up doing. I think what the writers came up with was pretty good. And while I don’t know if this was part of the series plan but it set up some things with Peophets and wormhole in coming seasons which was nice.

I also enjoyed rom’s scenes at Quark that bookended the hour
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Startrekwatcher
Mon, Jan 28, 2019, 1:21am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: The Adversary

3 stars. Pretty entertaining although I suspect I’d have preferred the original season finale idea of Vulcan leaving the Federation before paramount strangely nixed idea

This was pretty tense and suspenseful. And the final revelation carried quite a foreboding punch
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Startrekwatcher
Sun, Jan 27, 2019, 3:18am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S4: Fourth Season Recap

I thought this was one of the weakest DS9 and Rrek seasons

I preferred seasons 2, 3 and 7 to this. Michael Piller’s presence was sorely missed. The Federation/Klingin plot thread wasn’t put to any use after the premiere

There was way too much pointless B plots—worf interfering Odo investigation, Garak Ziyal, worf movi g to the defiant, kasidy moving to the station etc

The season also didn’t do a very good job at telling stand-alones. Lots of fluff like our man Bashir, little green men, Bar Association. And other episodes were pretty dull like Return to Grace, Crossfire, Sword if Kahless, Starship Down

I could care less about the romancing with Sisko and kasidy or Kira and shakaar or Kira and odo.

The dominion was pretty much sidelined and the one promising story that started out promising in homefront turned into a disappointing outing. The season finale was underwhelming

I could have cared less about regurgitating Worf’s family problems with Kurn. Ziyal was a useless character. Eddington was a useless character.

There were a couple string episodes. Way of the warrior. The Visitor. The Quickening. To the Death. Homefront. Hippocratic oath but overall underwhelming

I still think TNG -4 is much stronger, more consistent and mich much much more entertaining. I even think I had more fun with Voyager season four and the arrival of Seven than I did DS9-4
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Startrekwatcher
Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 9:17am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: The Die Is Cast

I guess around 3 stars

I think this is overrated as an episode. DS9 has much better epic two parters.

This felt kind of just there in a lot of ways. Wasn’t all that riveted by the Tain/Garak dynamic—the relationship, the reminiscenting of the old days, garak trying to prove himself etc etc. it was obvious Garak would not want to torture Odo. It was obvious he was torn.

I also really didn’t much care for the Defiant plot either. Eddington never was very interesting yet the writers keep writing him in. I felt no sense of jeopardy or concern over the crew disobeying their orders. The damage and repair felt like filler scenes

The torture scene managed to rise above routine due to the torture method and the fact it was a shapeshifter being interrogated otherwise kinda ho hum. But the make up and visual of what not regenerating does to a changeling was a highlight

The best part of the show finally arrived on final act with the battle between the Cardassians/Romulans and Jem Hadar. I loved the twist and didn’t see it coming the Founders were aware of the attack and had evacuated. I was also relieved that the episode didn’t wrap up the Dominion as a threat by having the Foinders actually have been wiped out which was what I was concerned about in part one. There was still more to be done with them

I also enjoyed the fact that the Romulan commander was a changeling and his ominous statement set up nicely the way the Dominion would handke the Federation and Klingons.

Although I didn’t buy the Jem’hadar attacking the runabout. Surely the Founder would have ordered their soldiers to leave the runabout alone seeing as a Foinder was onboard.

So overall a kind of lukewarm 4/5 followed by a great final act which is kind of the mirror opposite from
improbable Cause
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Startrekwatcher
Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 9:07am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Improbable Cause

3.5 stars

I very much enjoyed the intrigue and cloak n dagger vibe throughout the episode be it the bombing of Garak’s shop, the ensuing investigation with the Flaxian assassin, the Romulans showing up, the secret rendezvous with Odo’s Cardassian source, hints of unusual Romulan activity and build up, murders of intelligence officers, or trip to locate the missing Tain

The episode was going extremely well until the final act when the answers that came were kind of underwhelming. I didn’t particularly care for Tain eliminating his associates as the reason aromulans were assassinating agents. I was kind of lukewarm to the idea that the fleet was going to attack the dominion who had been MIA all season after much pomp and circumstance at their arrival at the end of season two then the season two parter

I also will confess I never cared for Tain or was all that invested in his and Garak’s relationship.

But for 4/5 of the hour the episode was very entertaining and intriguing before taking a left turn in the final act
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Startrekwatcher
Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 2:04am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

I’m part of the trek fan base and tng is my favorite and I find Thr Orville to be shitty and doesn’t capture any of what made 90s Trek and TNG in particular great

It’s low brow humor mixed in with warmed over ideas done better elsewhere. If it’s intended as a love letter to TNG it fails miserably. The only redeeming factor are the guest stars from Trek who make appearances. This should have been cancelled last year

And before someone thinks I’m Anti ORV because I’m a DIS fan well let me disabuse of that notion. I think DIS is an even big steaming pile of crap with another hack overseeing it.

I think the only thing making ORV slightly better is the fact it actually hired writers who actually wrote for trek as opposed to clueless fanboy types that are on DOS writing staff.
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Startrekwatcher
Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 12:40am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

The most popular tv show is a procedural called NCIS. It doesn’t break any new ground and isn’t serialized or overly dark. It tells mostly self contained episodes.

So I don’t buy the argument a new trek series should run away from the TNG format. Tng captured original Trek fans and the general public. Why couldn’t a series based on tng style tone and format do that again

People like comfort. Seeking new life and new civilizations was what attracted people two other times. It could again with stronger writing.
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Startrekwatcher
Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 12:32am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

Full disclosure I haven’t watched season two DIS and don’t plan too but I did want to chime in on what’s missing from DIS from my experience watching season one and reading season two spoilers

What I enjoyed about TNG was its ability to tell a variety of stories. We got action adventure sometimes other times a high concept sci fi mystery. Others a contemplative drama like Measure of a Man. The episodic format afforded flexibility. Plus it forced writers to pin down a payoff. You couldn’t stall and drag it out the way DIS did in season one.

The writers are too hung up on playing the audience by deliberately playing the mystery box/long con on them. Lots of twists lots of a ha moments. Lots of confusion and missing pieces. Lots of stuff happening offscreen that used to be dramatized onscreen

TNG, DS9 even VOY didn’t do that.

Another problem is it’s overreliance on TOS. I want something new and fresh as far as recurring character, aliens, geopolitical structures. Enough with the Easter eggs, shoehorning TOS characters and recycling stories

The show is also poorly plotted. Ideas instead of being mined are treated as plot points used as jumping off points then quickly brushed aside. And in pursuit of cramming as much in as possible in furthering their excessive storytelling style some good ideas never get fully explored


Also fundamentally the bigger problem was casting which isn’t as easily corrected. Some actors stink. Some characters are as bland as Harry Kim, Paris, Jadzia Dax

These writers need to go back and watch Piller Trek. Read the interviews and insights to understand what good consistent writing is

There is absolutely no excuse to churn out such garbage given how much production time they have now and with truncates seasons. TNG had 26 hours and only a few months of pre production on scripts and they managed to turn out consistency and entertaining episodes

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Startrekwatcher
Sun, Jan 20, 2019, 9:39am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Life Support

2 stars. Just an unfocused mess

The only good thing to Cokr from it was the peace treaty

I wasn’t invested in bareil or Kira and Bareil. The medical plot also was pretty mechanical
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Startrekwatcher
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 2:49am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S3: Rise

I originally hated this episode but having recently rewatched it found it wasn’t as bad as I thought

It’s entertaining enough and I loved the idea of a species using natural disaster to conquer a world. Some of the neelix stuff is annoying but not as bad as I recall

I just think coming so soon after the Borg episode anything would be a let down
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Startrekwatcher
Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

Kurtzman couldn’t write or oversee a decent project if he htried and boy has he tried

It’s all about the long con, toying with structure and cinematic visuals for him. He doesn’t understand the first thing about characterization or sound storytelling fundamentals

And that’s a large problem with a lot of these modern shows.

I’ve long since given up on Trek ever being good again. The JJ films were awful DIS is awful. Sound and fury nothing more

The 90s Piller era of Trek will never be matched. There was an effort to tell good stories with consistency and decent pacing.

I’d take TNG standalone adventures with nice little bows at the end over the convoluted mess that was DIS season one. I miss episodic adventures. Going from planet to planet. Meeting new aliens. The galaxy feeling unknown. High concept mysteries( remember me? The survivors, future inperfect, clues, night terrors, cause and effect, next phase, Timescape) or character dramas or interesting allegories(the host or the outcast ). New fresh aliens like the Borg, bynats, cardassians. Trek used to be fun and action adventure

Now it is all about regurgitating TOS over and over and over. As well as playing con games with its audience. It’s too flashy. Too fast. Too thin And none of the latest projects do anything for me—the animated show and section 31 series. And I’m
Guarded about the Picard show

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Startrekwatcher
Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 1:48am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

I’d rank
Tng as follows

4
5
3
1/6
2
7

In terms of modern Trek seasons overall my favorites are

Tng 4
Tng 5
Tng 3
Ds9 2
Ds9 7
Tng 1/6
Ds9 3
Ent 1
Ent 3
Ent 4
Voy 6
Voy 4
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