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SlackerInc
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 10:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

Funny how Bert is implying that I called this episode a "bonafide classic", when what I actually wrote about it was:

"A very uneven and thus marginal episode. There was some stupid, cringey stuff, some cliche stuff, but also some good elements."

So Bert, let me try explaining this to you again, very carefully. I'm not objecting to your posts because I love the episode--far from it. I'm objecting because you're being a jerk. Mmkay? Got it now?

@Trent: "It's like criticizing Dr Strangelove, one of the greatest "realistic" political comedies, for having a silly scene with a guy riding a bomb. Or criticizing 2001 a Space Odyssey, one of the greatest hard SF flicks, for its giant floating baby."

It's funny: I totally agree about "Dr. Strangelove", but I do actually think "2001" jumped the shark at the end, after the earlier parts of the film (especially everything with HAL-9000) were brilliant.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 4:53am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Bert, I am tempted to serve you up some psychoanalysis to illustrate what exactly is so offputting about it. But I'd rather not sink to that level. Have fun spraying your tendentious nonsense about, I'm not playing.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 1:18am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Darren (and anyone else who uses the phrase "commit suicide" without thinking about it, as I myself used to do):

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/09/health/suicide-language-words-matter/index.html
--------
Top of mind to many who care about this topic is getting rid of the phrase "committed suicide," says Dese'Rae Stage, a suicide awareness activist who holds a bachelor's degree in psychology and is trained in crisis intervention.
"It implies sin or crime" -- we "commit" sins and crimes -- "and pathologizes those affected. We suggest more objective phrasing, like 'died by/from suicide,' 'ended their life' or 'took their life,'" she said. "If we're using the right language, if we're pulling negative connotations from the language, talking about suicide may be easier."
A similar guideline actually has become the rule of thumb for major news organizations, including CNN, which often set the tone of public conversation around suicide.
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SlackerInc
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

Jammer has said many times that commenters should talk about the show, not insult each other. Ahem, Bert...?
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SlackerInc
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

I agree with Dave that Bert's scornful psychoanalysis is extremely offputting.

But I also mostly agree with Jammer about his complaints, even if I would rate the episode slightly higher.
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SlackerInc
Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 10:51am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Charles J: It's a good point that it would have been good to factor Teleya in there somehow.

@Trent, OTDP: Good points about "Birthday Cake". Still my favorite episode!
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SlackerInc
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 6:25am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

There's that "Black Mirror" episode too.

@Dave: You're right, that "do your job" scene was very good. I did say all along that there were some good elements, and I didn't mean "some of it was okay". There is like ten or twenty percent of this episode that's actually great. But then there's the rest of it.

I really like @OTDP's notion for a script writing process--except that "Birthday Cake" is already 3.5 stars, minimum. :P
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SlackerInc
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 1:12am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

OTDP: "Can't speak for anyone else, but I really liked ST:Enterprise. I don't really get the hate against Voyager, either."

Cosigned. But Neelix WAS annoying. I certainly don't find Mercer to be similar to him in any way.

@Gerontius, you make good points about Isaac. OTDP, I also see where you are coming from. It's ambiguous. I don't think he would have necessarily seen it as espionage to send classified information home. It could have been similar to the attitude of the zookeepers, but in a more benign way. For instance, anthropologists often write about hunter-gatherer tribes, even though those tribes don't know they are being talked about in scientific journals. For that matter, "Star Trek: Insurrection" implied that it is routine for the Federation to secretly observe preindustrial societies. Is that "espionage"?
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SlackerInc
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 7:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

I somehow missed the "Commander Cocktease" jibe. Ugh. Not cool, bro. Not cool.
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SlackerInc
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 8:12am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Bert: I'm not the uncritical fanboy you are looking for. I liked this particular episode fairly well, but I negatively reviewed the episode that preceded it, as well as the one that followed it (the latest one).
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SlackerInc
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 12:12am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Bert: Did you have the same complaint about BSG? Just curious.
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SlackerInc
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 11:27am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Karl Zimmerman: "Better than the terrible astrology episode, but not great."

This was most definitely NOT better than "All the World is Birthday Cake", a four star episode that is the best of the series thus far. :P

@Galadriel: I agree that it was cool to see Yaphit get awarded a medal for basically saving all of humanity (with the help of others, obviously--but his role was key). If they hadn't done that, probably none of us would have really noticed, but it was a nice touch.

@Trent, agreed, good stuff.

I either didn't see, or don't remember, "Past Prologue"; but wow, sounds like it was really similar, beat for beat!
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SlackerInc
Thu, Mar 7, 2019, 10:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

A very uneven and thus marginal episode. There was some stupid, cringey stuff, some cliche stuff, but also some good elements. Overall I can't quite go for 3 stars so it's 2.5 for me (if I could give it like 2.8 I'd feel better because 2.5 does feel harsh).
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SlackerInc
Thu, Mar 7, 2019, 5:21am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

Ugh, sorry for the serial posting, but I made two errors in my 5:09 comment, one consequential.

In "Grayson and Malloy tell the badass Krill captain the Krill are intent on wiping out all biological entities", that should read "the KAYLONS are intent...". Sorry.

(I also just noticed I refered to the "Kaylon's unwise decision" which actually should be possessive plural "Kaylons' unwise decision".)
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SlackerInc
Thu, Mar 7, 2019, 5:13am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@OTDP: We were writing at the same time. Nice post, cosigned; and thanks for the kudos.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Mar 7, 2019, 5:09am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Jammer: "The show has spent all this time building the Krill up as this unbending, religious fundamentalist threat. Now they suddenly decide to join a battle against the Kaylon because the Kaylon don't worship Avis. That's a quality no different from any other non-Krill society, so why are they so willing to flip 180 degrees and suddenly be sensible?"


Wait, what? That's not how I read it at all. Here's what I saw:

--Grayson and Malloy tell the badass Krill captain the Krill are intent on wiping out all biological entities, starting with humans on Earth.

--The captain laughs in their faces, scoffing at what he sees as a transparent lie.

--The Kaylon ship catches up to them and starts blasting away at the Krill ships.

--Grayson is like "See? That's what we were telling you about" (this kind of "real" dialogue is something I love about this show BTW).

--Krill captain is like "oh shit, these Kaylons ain't playin'"

--And then of course he rides to the rescue.

Just as in DS9, it's an alliance born of necessity, of survival in the face of a greater threat.

Now, if we're going to nitpick the scenario, I'd look in a different place: namely, the Kaylon's unwise decision to attack the Krill. This turned out to be their Lusitania (look it up on Wikipedia if you're not familiar with the action that brought the U.S. into WWI).
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SlackerInc
Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 12:37am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Darren, that may have been "borderline rambling", but I really dug it!

@Gerontius, I liked your followup too.
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SlackerInc
Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 11:41am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Gerontius, cosigned.

A cool detail about the show the director revealed on the podcast: unlike most shows, "The Orville" has all its scripts done before any are shot. So when they come up with story ideas later in the season, they go back and sprinkle foreshadowing or setup for them in the early scripts. So it's not so much that they plan ahead, as that they are able to use omniscient 20/20 hindsight.
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SlackerInc
Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 1:00am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

Sorry for the double post, but something that has been bugging me:

The Union needs to work on its codes for "my ship has been taken over". First of all, that "13 button salute" just screams "wink, wink" even if you don't know the codes. But to make it worse, apparently that code is in the data banks they can access once they take over the ship.

What they should do IMO is regularly change the code, and only disclose them to captains (and probably also first officers) in verbal form in face to face meetings between those top officers and the admiralty. Or they could have captains pass them on to other captains when ships encounter each other--but not through electronic communications. And have it be something subtle that won't sound out of place, but which can still assiduously be avoided unless needed.
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SlackerInc
Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 12:48am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Joseph: Nice post. There is a real resistance among many (including Jammer) to acknowledge that the Kaylons really do have emotions, even if they try to deny it and those emotions don't look exactly like they would in humans. I believe this is a recipe for frustration, that will continue to play out like this:

[Episode features Isaac doing something emotional]

Jammer and others: "Gaahh! The writers screwed up! They forgot Isaac has no emotions, and wrolte this scene as though he has them."

[facepalm emoji]

@Spockless: "Not always serious, but it is sincere" is actually kind of deep, and very insightful. If it had the humor without the earnestness, it would feel quite different. I might still watch, but I wouldn't like it as well.
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SlackerInc
Fri, Mar 1, 2019, 9:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part I

Grimes is engaged to Palicki? Yowza!

@Yanks, your supposition is IMO belied by the "Singin' in the Rain" scene. Not to mention that they have had sex, which has nothing to do with her kids (let's hope).

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SlackerInc
Fri, Mar 1, 2019, 3:29am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

Precisely, @OTDP.

@Steve, I agree about the amazing space battle. On the podcast, the director said they have been working on the effects for this one since they started the season, and now I can see why. Incredible looking stuff and a thrilling ride on my 70 inch TV.

@J.B.: “The Kaylons have no emotions (as has been beaten into our heads over and over again) so why did Isaac turn? It makes no sense to me. Is he different? It was mentioned that he was a later model, I guess.”

To me, you and Jammer are both on the wrong track, going back (at least for him) several episodes. Isaac “learned to feel” while bonding with Claire, her kids, and the other crewmembers. Maybe you guys don’t like that plot, would argue it’s hackneyed, or whatever. That’s a valid objection, although I don’t share it.

But this is what they are doing, like it or not. At a certain point, it’s like complaining about the biomechanics of the ice people in “Game of Thrones” (or any zombie fiction for that matter). You either accept that this is the way this world is, or you dislike it.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Mertov: “And of course, the ultra-high-IQ Kaylons see no problem with this strategy. What good is the threat of killing a group of humans if the only option given to avoid it is that the same group of humans will be destroyed anyway along with the rest of humanity? All-right.”

This bothered me too. But remember how Isaac had a different sense of time than humans? My handwave is that to them, human lifespans are over in a relative blink of an eye, yet they desperately strive to stave off their deaths as long as possible. So their understanding of human psychology was a little rough (yet look at how resistant Ed was to letting Kelly go on the mission, or Claire was to let Ty go. Ty had to point out the logic error!

Still, your plot armor points are valid. Par for the course.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 9:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

This redeemed what I saw as the missteps of the first part in large degree. Jammer will no doubt disagree, because he is stuck on seeing Isaac as an unfeeling machine, and that is quite obviously not how the show's writers see him.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 8:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part I

@Jammer: "But this framing of their relationship in these traditionally romantic/domestic terms is a mistake that makes Claire look like she's foolishly expecting reciprocation where by definition none can exist."

You're still missing the point. This is clearly not how the writers see it. Like some of the people who reviewed the movies "A.I." and "Her", you are substituting your own beliefs about artificial intelligence rather than accepting the worldbuilding on its own terms.

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