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Sen-Sors
Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 7:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

It's bizarre how STP put so much effort into calling back minute details like the hands of the poker game in Measure Of A Man and then completely glosses over how the Federation went on to create a race of androids for explicitly for slave labor.

Um, hello? The whole point of the episode was that that would be a bad thing and the concept was shot down in Federation court.
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Sen-Sors
Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

!!!!!!

The Plinkett Picard review is up.
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Sen-Sors
Mon, May 18, 2020, 5:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

I liked the actor who played Pike in STD but he was kinda written as Captain Cool-Dad; he seemed to put up with a lot more backtalk and order-questioning than any other captain.

Also does that mean more Spock? Probably?
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Sen-Sors
Mon, May 4, 2020, 5:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: Whom Gods Destroy

Party on, Garth
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Sen-Sors
Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 6:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Andy's Friend

"I think the main target audience for NuTrek is people younger than you are."

Oof, point taken. But you know, last night I watched First Contact for the first time and between pissed-off vengeance-driven Picard and the introduction of a horny Borg Queen it was clear that dumbing down Star Trek for the sake of the masses goes back way before STD. Considering how the 90s TNG films were the first to turn Trek into action schlock, perhaps you really should put the blame on my generation.

These kinds of decisions are made by studios who are wary of creative risk and drawn to emulating what currently works for other successful properties. And the longer-running and more prestigious the franchise, the more control those people have. Right now those people have Kurtzman in charge because he's good at putting out derivative schmaltzy crap that apes Marvel, albeit very poorly.

But I don't think it's fair to say that if you had a better-written show that did the themes of Trek justice (whatever that means to you) that Kids These Days would "lack the imagination" to appreciate it. I'm generally wary of blaming audiences for the short-sighted decision-making of major studios.
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Sen-Sors
Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 5:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Andy's Friend

"Young people today don't remember/never knew the old series; and more importantly, young people today are more impressed by appearance than by substance."

Oh man. Now That's What I Call Ageism!

I mean, I'm 31, my favorite Trek is TOS and I think Kurtzman Trek is trash but feel free to lay the blame for Nu-Trek on my generation.

"My guess is, they are probably not used to having to search for meanings in narratives, as everything is made so blatantly obvious and explicit these days. So they can't see past the family-friendly tone to see the seriousness of the story and the themes being told: they seem to simply lack in imagination."

Really insightful stuff here. Let's continue with your logic. Considering how Kurtzman Trek is roughly 50% violence, mystery boxes and cuss words and 50% schmaltzy nostgalgia pandering to older fans who weep openly after Picard says "engage", don't you think your generation is at least partly responsible for the current state of Trek? Or is the whole idea of making blanket statements about an entire generation a dubious way to make a point about... Well, anything?
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Sen-Sors
Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 9:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Brian L

"Not only did we have to wiz through a hundred other plot points to get here, to top it off they inject a very heavy-handed scene into the finale that really seems to come out of nowhere."

A lonely voice on the wind whispers "reshoots..."
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Sen-Sors
Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 7:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Jor-El

"Did anyone else notice the recurring theme of eye injuries?"

Heh. Indeed, the writers for this season seemed to be heavily inspired by Italian film-maker Lucio Fulci, whose early 80s horror films were almost as atmospheric as they were gory, especially in regards to eyeballs. If you look up "Lucio Fulci eyeball scene" you will get plenty of results. None of them are particularly realistic but, uh... They definitely don't cut away from the action.

Watching the Icheb scene in STP felt like I was watching a Fulci film, which is a connection I never thought I'd make to Star Trek. If you enjoyed season 1 of STP, I highly recommend the horror works of Lucio Fulci, specifically "Zombi" and my personal favorite, "The Beyond". I'm also partial to his adaptation of "The Black Cat" but that one is a little light on eyeball trauma so your mileage may vary.
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Sen-Sors
Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 6:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

"How would you write a Jurati courtroom scene to be any different than a random Law & Order episode?"

I dunno, I'm not a high-falutin' teevee writer. Maybe have Maddox's daughter be the hotshot prosecutor and argue against Picard's insanity defense. After the opening statements the judge winks out of existence and is replaced by Q. Oh shit!

"Well well, what have we here? Please proceed, Jean-Luc, and tell me all about how murder is acceptable when it's one of YOUR crew."

If the writers can't think of a way to make it interesting, then just drop her off at Deep Space Twelve and say buh-bye. Have her come back in season 3 if they haven't already found another Tilly to replace her with.
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Sen-Sors
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 7:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Also, remember those Romulan housekeepers from the start of the season? The former Tal Shiar operatives with extensive combat abilities as well as knowledge of the Zhat Vash, the organization trying to kill Daj, Soji and Picard himself?

Remember when we left them behind so Picard could recruit a Romulan child who was good at swinging a sword? Good times.
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Sen-Sors
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 6:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tim

"I could really live without a whole episode (or even a whole scene) devoted to Law & Order: Alpha Quadrant"

Really? I mean, to each their own, but courtroom stories have turned out to be some of the highest rated Trek episodes as well as some of the best Picard stories. "Measure of a Man" and "The Drumhead" for example.

Not sure why we keep bringing up examples of Sisko being shady to excuse Jurati's actions. Sisko's actions were a person in power making impossible choices that compromised his values; the difficulty he had in doing that and the toll it took on his character were major themes of the show. Jurati is being let off the hook for murder because... She's quirky, I guess?

It's true that we did not see a court-martial episode after Sisko gassed that planet, and there are a few other examples like that in Trek. The "reset button" is generally recognized as a weakness with episodic storytelling and Trek in particular, but that alone does not make Jurati getting off for murder acceptable. I'd argue that in serialized storytelling, where character actions generally have more weight and carry over into subsequent episodes, pulling that kind of "welp, nevermind" maneuver is even more problematic.

Look, all I'm saying is Jurati deliberately killed a guy and whether or not she was in her right mind is an open question at best. They really ought to follow up on that in season 2, but given how her character was treated in the final episodes and Kurtzman Trek's habit of abandoning half-finished plots I have serious doubts they will. And if they expect the audience to just forget about Maddox's murder because Jurati is quirky and feels bad about it, then that's garbage writing as well as being pretty fucked-up.

I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong.
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Sen-Sors
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 10:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tim

Most of the examples you cited were cases of straight-up bodily possession, or in Data's case, programming. The example most analogous to Jurati's situation is Data's programming being influenced by Lore in "Descent". And yea, he got off too easy. I'd argue that that is slightly less jarring in a more episodic format than a serialized one, but point taken.

IMO Jurati killing Maddox was portrayed as different than something like Geordi being turned into a Manchurian candidate to kill a senator or Troi and Myles being posessed. As Maddox was dying she said "I wish I didn't know what I know", as in "I wish I didn't have to do this but I have to" which implies she was lucid enough to make the decision to kill.

If they follow up with a trial/inquiry in season 2 I will be satisfied, even if she gets off easy from being "under duress". Someone mentioned the "mental block" that Oh installed which I agree is relevant. Following up on this plot will give Picard a chance to shine in a classic Trek courtroom episode, which I would love to see from newer Trek.

That said, in the last few episodes there was zero implication from anybody that Agnes will have to face consequences next season. The fact that the show just blows by her killing Maddox to focus on her and Rios as a happy couple was pretty off-putting.
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Sen-Sors
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Agnes getting off the hook for murder 1 with no discussion is a prime example of the bizarre and perversely warped ethics of the Kurtzman shows.

Previous Trek series had moments of questionable ethics; Picard was chastised by Starfleet brass for not enacting genocide on the Borg and ordered to carry it out if he got another chance, and Starfleet was perfectly happy to do the same to the Dominion. That's kinda fucked, but in both cases we got pushback from the characters. Picard accepts his rebuke from Starfleet in a way that makes it clear that he would never actually carry out that order, and Odo goes out of his way to find a different solution. It was clear that even when the world around the characters demanded morally questionable acts, the characters considered them, rejected them and found a better way. Or when they couldn't, like Sisko in "In the Pale Moonlight", the show made a point of showing the characters grappling with such dilemmas, and made it clear how conflicted they were in compromising their values.

Compare that to STP and STD. Starfleet plants a bomb on the Klingon planet and puts the detonator in the hand of a sockpuppet leader. Then Micheal Burnham gives a big "we are Starfleet, we have values" speech and there is no further discussion on this course of action. Everyone is fine with it.

Jurati has a vision forced on her that by the show's own admission she can never really make sense of. Instead of seeking help from literally anyone (including Picard), she makes the choice to murder her ex. She feels bad and is told she must turn herself in but once the quest ramps up everyone just kinda forgets about it. At one point she asks "Am I still under arrest?" and no one answers. The season ends with her and Rios holding hands and smiling at each other. Apparently we the audience are supposed to be happy for her and never mind the murder. Again, bizarre.

In both cases (threatening genocide and letting a murderer go scot-free) the shows just blow past these glaring issues with none of the characters raising any real objections. Neither STP and STD have any interest in exploring ethical issues to any real extent; instead, everything the characters do is essentially fine by default, because they are Our Characters.

And in lieu of working through moral dilemmas we get what? Soppy melodrama and unearned schmaltz? Booooooo.
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Sen-Sors
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 5:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Gerontius

I know some people are tired of discussing the ageism thing and I am late in my reply but since my particular objections to the captain's chair scene was relevant to the discussion I'd like to make a response.

I think I made my feelings about that scene very clear in the last thread. I didn't like that a show that so often sidelines and demeans the character of Picard went on to use him in that scene as (in my opinion) a cheap joke. It felt like a crappy Progressive commercial or a scene from The Office where the joke is people being "awk-waaaard, lol". I don't like that kind of humor, and I didn't like the scene.

Other people including yourself thought it was fine, and saw it as Picard handing over the reigns. And that's fine! It's not an opinion I share, but that's fine.

Now, you can either accept that as an honest difference in opinion, or you can attempt to psychoanalyze a stranger and label them as discriminatory in their thinking based on their usage of relatively innocuous descriptive words like "befuddled". Am I to understand that if people described Picard as a "confused old man" or an "old man out of touch with reality", you would have no objection because you have arbitrarily decided those words are acceptable? I fail to see the distinction.
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Sen-Sors
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Also, "out of touch with reality"? Whoa, that's pretty harsh. Moreso than "befuddled".
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Sen-Sors
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Gerontius, I pointed one out in the last episode but you claimed that was just me being ageist. *shrug*
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Sen-Sors
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 6:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Glad to see some pushback on the "ageism" claims. Nobody is claiming that Picard looks befuddled or doddering because they have contempt for the elderly deep in their hearts, they're saying it because that's what they're seeing portrayed on-screen. Not sure what words would be acceptable to describe it if words like "befuddled" are unnacceptable. Context matters, and to claim that everyone who has described Picards portrayal as an ineffectual old codger harbors an unconscious contempt for old people (even when they've made it clear they don't like said portrayel) is fairly dubious.

Anyway, can we talk about Elnor? What a mess of a character. The show shoehorns in an adopted son to a character famously averse to children, and does so with a single short montage. Picard needs his help because he needs muscle, fine, but he's good with a sword in a universe where everyone uses energy projectile weapons. Whatever. Apparently he's a hugger, because that's how they do it in Romulan warrior sects...? Uh, sure. Romulans have always been very huggy. Right.

Anyway Picard abandons Elnor as a child, then he comes back and recruits him for his quest, and Elnor contributes by slicing up a couple guards on the Borg cube and... Well, that's kinda it. Seriously, if you took Elnor out of the show would it have any effect on the plot?

And then Picard abandons him, AGAIN. Hilarious. Way to go Jean-Luc.

"I luv u JL" was painful in how unearned it was but it's classic Kurtzman schmaltz so it had to happen. Imagine if instead of (unconvincingly) returning the sentiment he turned around and said "My name is Jean-Luc."

I'm fucking flabbergasted by how they're handling Agnes's character. "Am I still under arrest?" Picard should have said "Of course. In fact we're moving your quarters to the cargo bay, next to the airlock, please report there now." Instead he said nothing and neither did anyone else. Okay. And later on the planet she's like "I know I killed a guy but this is where I belong!" Too bad, you deliberately killed a man based on a vision you couldn't even make sense of, here's your cell. I get the feeling this show wants people to root for Agnes ending up somewhere other than in prison, which is just bizarre. Of course she'll end up with sacrificing her life as an act of redemption, but still.

Her romance with Rios is awful; again, it's amazing that the show seems to want us to care. It should be noted that this show having awful romance plots is very much in keeping with classic Trek.

I guess we're never going to find out how we went from android rights in Measure of a Man to android slavery in STP. Oh well.

Picard does a big speech and is roundly panned for it. Classic STP.

Stuff I liked: the dogfight between Picard's ship and Narek's was well-done, you could see what was happening and make sense of it visually which doesn't often happen in Trek outside the movies. Picard's desire to beam Narek aboard and his line about not letting wounded foes die was good, a rare moment where he seemed like the real Picard.

Good stuff from Soji/Sutra's actress, I forget her name. The cast in general is pretty competent in this show, it's the writing that's the problem.
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Sen-Sors
Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 3:12am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

@Gerontius

Well if the Oxford dictionary says so, then I guess I must despise old folks. Bummer.

It seems important to you to color my opinion of a scene as one based solely on contempt for the elderly, rather than a reaction to the elements of the scene itself. I really don't think the words I've used are enough for you to make that particular judgement of me, but I can't lay out my reasons for disliking the scene any more clearly.
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Sen-Sors
Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 5:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

"If that looked befuddled to you, Sen-Sors, perhaps there are other reasons you see it that way."

Right, like "ageism"? Nah. If I hated the elderly I wouldn't be washing my hands and staying at home to preserve the lives of old people who will inevitably show up to to vote against my working-class interests, and I definitely wouldn't be watching a show about a geriatric Starfleet captain. Also I loved Bubba Ho-Tep; my credentials in this field are impeccable.

Perhaps I didn't like the scene because I've never been a fan of "Oops, awk-waaard" humor, especially in the greater context of how the show has portrayed Picard. That's all.
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Sen-Sors
Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

"I'd class that as ageism"

I didn't write the scene, I'm just pointing out how it came across. I certainly don't like the way the scene made Picard look like a befuddled old man, but that is what it did. *shrug*

I don't like how a show titled Star Trek: Picard, sold as a "character study" of the man, so often makes him a whipping post for other characters to yell at while he averts eye contact, often shoves him to the side while every other character actually advances the plot, and uses him for cheap gags like the captain's chair scene. Aside from a couple scenes like the one between him and Jurati I mentioned earlier, I don't really recognize this guy as Captain Picard. He often comes across as a befuddled old man who is a side character in his own show, and to be clear I think that is a disservice to the character and I don't like it. I understand your objection is the use of the word "befuddled" but if anyone is being "ageist" it's the writers, not the viewers who point out that this is how the character comes across. If you disagree, that's fine, there are people in the comments above who loved the captain's chair scene. I didn't.
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Sen-Sors
Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 8:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

Cussing Lady's name is Clancy? To me she'll always be Admiral Fuck. Her telling Picard to STFU got a bark of laughter from me; it's cheap, tacky writing for Star Trek but I guess it's a running bit now so whatever. She'll bring in the cavalry to rescue Picard in the last episode and when he thanks her she'll respond with "Fuckin' A, Picard."

Really hated the captain's chair gag. Classic Star Trek setup undercut by "Oops, I don't know how to work this thing!" What is this, a friggin' Geico commercial? I know that "white people being awkward LOL" comprises about 90% of all TV/movie humor today but it really doesn't do it for me. Whatever. This show never misses a chance to make Picard a befuddled old man who needs to get out of the way.
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Sen-Sors
Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:57am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

@Captain Jon, you already answered your own question when you proposed it. Indeed, there are no reason to keep watching this show besides "it's Star Trek" and "it might get good".
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Sen-Sors
Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:48am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

@Clark, letting Agnes go scot free would be sickening, they might do it. Maybe Picard will clap. Perhaps more likely is an Admiral Cornwell-esque pointless sacrifice. She'll look at Rios through the bulkhead glass and shout "EYE LOVE YOU" and then get blown up.

The scene where everyone sits around a table while Raffi dumps the main plot expositition on them felt like they filmed the writers room and gave a transcript to the actors.
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Sen-Sors
Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:30am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

@Captain Jon

"So....why do you still watch? Are you waiting for it to meet your standard for what you consider to be good Star Trek? What other reason would you have other than you're waiting for it to get good or because it's Star Trek?"

Are those not good enough reasons?

Nobody owes you or anyone else a justification for why they are watching and commenting on the show. There is no reason to ask for one unless you are trying to shame people into not expressing their opinions.

I think this show suffers from the same garbage writing and structural plot problems as STD. This episode didn't really change that, but as far as stuff I liked I will say the scene between Picard and Jurati was the first time I really recognized Captain Picard in this show. Dignified, commanding and straight to the heart of the matter. Good scene.

Pretty heavy Mass Effect vibes to the main quest.
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Sen-Sors
Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 7:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Nepenthe

Indeed, if anything she is a toddler and should be treated as such.

Kidding. Don't @ me. Unless she starts referring to Picard as "JL", which warrants a time-out beyond the airlock.

Seriously I know it's a gripe from previous episodes but exactly when did Raffi start referring to him as JL? Am I supposed to believe it was while she was serving under him in Starfleet? And he was fine with it?

"JL" doesn't even shorten "Jean-Luc"! I HATE IT

Also this show needs to decide whether Raffi's addictions and relapses are A Serious Problem or something cute to be played for laughs. Pick one.
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