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Re: ENT S4: The Aenar
@Daya let’s just pretend that the awful very last episode never existed and that this episode was indeed where we parted with Shran. A great ending for that character.
@Daya let’s just pretend that the awful very last episode never existed and that this episode was indeed where we parted with Shran. A great ending for that character.
Re: LD S1: Veritas
Comments #2, 3 and 4 (Patrick D, Nick and Sxottlan) are so obviously part of the marketing for the show it’s actually funny.
Having read thousands of comments on this website, these types of posts clearly stand out as disingenuous PR fabrication.
@Jammers, I know you rarely consider deleting posts, but in this case I would not hesitate one second if I were in your shoes.
Made me think how cool it is that you have this site with all these comments on these old shows, devoid of such corporate pollution, no likes or dislikes etc. Everyone can submit their thoughts and reactions and readers have to consider them without bias or prejudice based on ‘social’ judgements. Such luxury.
Comments #2, 3 and 4 (Patrick D, Nick and Sxottlan) are so obviously part of the marketing for the show it’s actually funny.
Having read thousands of comments on this website, these types of posts clearly stand out as disingenuous PR fabrication.
@Jammers, I know you rarely consider deleting posts, but in this case I would not hesitate one second if I were in your shoes.
Made me think how cool it is that you have this site with all these comments on these old shows, devoid of such corporate pollution, no likes or dislikes etc. Everyone can submit their thoughts and reactions and readers have to consider them without bias or prejudice based on ‘social’ judgements. Such luxury.
Re: ENT S4: Affliction
Such a delight to watch Many Coto episodes after the B&B dross we had to endure in previous seasons.
You can tell this guy not only has respect for Trek and its original philosophy/ideals, but he also has vast knowledge of the entire lore and makes good use of it, either by clever references or when he tries to tie up loose ends (like the klingon appearance discrepancy).
There was a lot going on in this episode, perhaps a tad too much, but it is so refreshing to have to THINK through an episode as opposed to the boring action that we had to get used to previously.
3.5 stars from me (also because seeing mcfarlane is now a cool cameo).
Such a delight to watch Many Coto episodes after the B&B dross we had to endure in previous seasons.
You can tell this guy not only has respect for Trek and its original philosophy/ideals, but he also has vast knowledge of the entire lore and makes good use of it, either by clever references or when he tries to tie up loose ends (like the klingon appearance discrepancy).
There was a lot going on in this episode, perhaps a tad too much, but it is so refreshing to have to THINK through an episode as opposed to the boring action that we had to get used to previously.
3.5 stars from me (also because seeing mcfarlane is now a cool cameo).
Re: ENT S4: The Aenar
Yes many weird plot holes, but overall enjoyable.
The aenar are an interesting cousin of the andorian (sort of the opposite of what the romulans are to the vulcans), and it was touching to see shran getting all cosy with that aenar woman (although there was a bit too much of a Born Sexy Yesterday syndrome for my taste).
Best part, which I think was intentionally meta by the writers:
Aenar lady reading Archer’s mind: "You have an interesting mind, captain – many facets. Some of those facets are in conflict."
Shran: "That explains a lot!"
Yes many weird plot holes, but overall enjoyable.
The aenar are an interesting cousin of the andorian (sort of the opposite of what the romulans are to the vulcans), and it was touching to see shran getting all cosy with that aenar woman (although there was a bit too much of a Born Sexy Yesterday syndrome for my taste).
Best part, which I think was intentionally meta by the writers:
Aenar lady reading Archer’s mind: "You have an interesting mind, captain – many facets. Some of those facets are in conflict."
Shran: "That explains a lot!"
Re: ENT S4: Observer Effect
Indeed a very good episode. I particularly enjoyed all the actors playing the aliens, I found myself trying to guess which one is who when they switched.
For once humans being on the receiving end was also an entertaining intellectual exercise.
The parallel to Dear Doctor is obvious, one cannot help but lament at the inconsistency of Archer as a character. Kinda became laughable. Although I will admit the situation is not 100% identical (entire specie vs. a few specimens to be saved), the similarity is too big not to be noticed. I am convinced there was an intention on the part of the writers to correct the damage of DD.
The very end is the only part that bothered me. The aliens were not trying to *understand* what it meant to be human, they were *judging* humans to know whether they should initiate first contact or not. One might argue that in order to judge you need to understand the subject, but I was not convinced by the sudden decision to interfere based on just a speech about compassion being the way to understand humans. Sort of felt like humans are the most advanced species, teaching 10,000 year old super-evolved super-intelligent non-corporeal beings how to improve themselves… very presumptuous and arrogant if you ask me.
I think it would have worked better if Archer had made a plea to the aliens’ already existing compassion, and convinced them that helping out a few humans and deleting their memory would not have any meaningful impact. Sort of how a pre-warp species could have convinced Archer to bend the prime directive.
Indeed a very good episode. I particularly enjoyed all the actors playing the aliens, I found myself trying to guess which one is who when they switched.
For once humans being on the receiving end was also an entertaining intellectual exercise.
The parallel to Dear Doctor is obvious, one cannot help but lament at the inconsistency of Archer as a character. Kinda became laughable. Although I will admit the situation is not 100% identical (entire specie vs. a few specimens to be saved), the similarity is too big not to be noticed. I am convinced there was an intention on the part of the writers to correct the damage of DD.
The very end is the only part that bothered me. The aliens were not trying to *understand* what it meant to be human, they were *judging* humans to know whether they should initiate first contact or not. One might argue that in order to judge you need to understand the subject, but I was not convinced by the sudden decision to interfere based on just a speech about compassion being the way to understand humans. Sort of felt like humans are the most advanced species, teaching 10,000 year old super-evolved super-intelligent non-corporeal beings how to improve themselves… very presumptuous and arrogant if you ask me.
I think it would have worked better if Archer had made a plea to the aliens’ already existing compassion, and convinced them that helping out a few humans and deleting their memory would not have any meaningful impact. Sort of how a pre-warp species could have convinced Archer to bend the prime directive.
Re: ENT S4: Storm Front, Part II
Really bad episode. All action non-sense in all directions. 1 star for ending the TCW bs, I guess.
What is it that warrants 2.5 stars? I really wonder.
Not that it matters given the overall level of absurdity, but how did Archer get back to the Enterprise? A few minutes earlier Archer could not contact the Enterprise to beam up Silik when he was dying. But then he magically transports from the streets of NY to the ship without any explanation. The script itself just gave up.
And yeah these fighting scenes between the resistance and the Germans are so laughable. A bataillon of heavy armed trained soldiers in fortified positions (guarding one of the most valuable tactical buildings on the US front) vs a few mafiosi with handgun hiding behind a car…
Really bad episode. All action non-sense in all directions. 1 star for ending the TCW bs, I guess.
What is it that warrants 2.5 stars? I really wonder.
Not that it matters given the overall level of absurdity, but how did Archer get back to the Enterprise? A few minutes earlier Archer could not contact the Enterprise to beam up Silik when he was dying. But then he magically transports from the streets of NY to the ship without any explanation. The script itself just gave up.
And yeah these fighting scenes between the resistance and the Germans are so laughable. A bataillon of heavy armed trained soldiers in fortified positions (guarding one of the most valuable tactical buildings on the US front) vs a few mafiosi with handgun hiding behind a car…
Re: ENT S3: The Forgotten
Very good episode, and trilogy for that matter. The best ENT has ever produced in my book.
Only thing that bothered was how the primate — who was still unconvinced of Archer and his ability to convince the council — went along with destroying the reptilian ship.
This, and the monumental leap of faith Degra is taking, should have been better developed and explained.
I’ll just pretend some conversation happened off-camera that tipped the primate over to fully supporting the alliance strategy.
Very good episode, and trilogy for that matter. The best ENT has ever produced in my book.
Only thing that bothered was how the primate — who was still unconvinced of Archer and his ability to convince the council — went along with destroying the reptilian ship.
This, and the monumental leap of faith Degra is taking, should have been better developed and explained.
I’ll just pretend some conversation happened off-camera that tipped the primate over to fully supporting the alliance strategy.
Re: ENT S3: Proving Ground
Thanks @Yanks!
Kinda weird then that they do not chase them all guns blazing. Especially now.
Maybe they will… on to the next episode!
Thanks @Yanks!
Kinda weird then that they do not chase them all guns blazing. Especially now.
Maybe they will… on to the next episode!
Re: ENT S3: Proving Ground
One thing I am struggling with is why don’t the Xindi go and hunt down Enterprise?
I cannot remember, was Enterprise spotted by the Xindi before this episode? Did the Xindi know the humans sent a ship to the expanse?
Even if they did not know until now, why are they not sending 10 ships after them?
If I were them that would be my #1 priority.
Maybe someone with better recollection can help me out here.
One thing I am struggling with is why don’t the Xindi go and hunt down Enterprise?
I cannot remember, was Enterprise spotted by the Xindi before this episode? Did the Xindi know the humans sent a ship to the expanse?
Even if they did not know until now, why are they not sending 10 ships after them?
If I were them that would be my #1 priority.
Maybe someone with better recollection can help me out here.
Re: ENT S3: Rajiin
I decided to watch all the Trek series. The last season of DS9 and VOY were already painful. Half way through ENT it is becoming almost impossible but I must stay strong.
I decided to watch all the Trek series. The last season of DS9 and VOY were already painful. Half way through ENT it is becoming almost impossible but I must stay strong.
Re: ENT S3: Rajiin
The Xindi completely outgun the enterprise and its crew. Instead of this convoluted spy plot with low chance of success, why don't they just board the ship and take a few humans to study / develop the bio weapon. Even better, take the ship and the entire crew.
Or, I dont know, something completely crazy, capture the helpless humans and TALK to them? Nah, better go back and develop weapons to extinguish them, after all we are aliens so we dont talk to other races to resolve conflicts, we just annihilate them (wait… how did we come to forming an alliance of many different species in the first place then?).
Loved the scene where they bring Raijin to the council too:
- Look I have bio-info on the evil humans
- Great!
- But they are also nice people. As the ONLY person ever from your region to have interacted with them, I have so many interesting things to tell you about them
- Shut up, go back to sex slavery, we have weapons to build here. And tell your master we want manatee or giant insect sex slaves, not your disgusting skin-covered type of species
Which makes me think. How do they know what humans look like? How did they know which type of species to use to be attractive and deceitful to humans?
Seriously bad writing. No matter how good the acting, CGI, etc., such poor writing completely kills episodes like this.
Was also waiting for Archer to start torturing Raijin… alas it seems he’s lost his way again and back to mercurial Archer.
He also forgot to blame Trip in the end. Clearly it was his fault that he couldn’t develop the special plating they need, so they had to go to that planet and then got Archer tricked by that spy girl.
Between ENT/Archer and VOY/Janeway it’s really hard to say which is worse. Would still go with VOY/Janeway at this stage, because it was lazy on top of bad. At least with ENT they are trying, or pretending to try.
The Xindi completely outgun the enterprise and its crew. Instead of this convoluted spy plot with low chance of success, why don't they just board the ship and take a few humans to study / develop the bio weapon. Even better, take the ship and the entire crew.
Or, I dont know, something completely crazy, capture the helpless humans and TALK to them? Nah, better go back and develop weapons to extinguish them, after all we are aliens so we dont talk to other races to resolve conflicts, we just annihilate them (wait… how did we come to forming an alliance of many different species in the first place then?).
Loved the scene where they bring Raijin to the council too:
- Look I have bio-info on the evil humans
- Great!
- But they are also nice people. As the ONLY person ever from your region to have interacted with them, I have so many interesting things to tell you about them
- Shut up, go back to sex slavery, we have weapons to build here. And tell your master we want manatee or giant insect sex slaves, not your disgusting skin-covered type of species
Which makes me think. How do they know what humans look like? How did they know which type of species to use to be attractive and deceitful to humans?
Seriously bad writing. No matter how good the acting, CGI, etc., such poor writing completely kills episodes like this.
Was also waiting for Archer to start torturing Raijin… alas it seems he’s lost his way again and back to mercurial Archer.
He also forgot to blame Trip in the end. Clearly it was his fault that he couldn’t develop the special plating they need, so they had to go to that planet and then got Archer tricked by that spy girl.
Between ENT/Archer and VOY/Janeway it’s really hard to say which is worse. Would still go with VOY/Janeway at this stage, because it was lazy on top of bad. At least with ENT they are trying, or pretending to try.
Re: ENT S3: Anomaly
@Dustin - Jan 14, 2019 wrote:
“Ask yourself this question: If you were serving aboard the Enterprise as a lower decks crewman or woman would you rather have this guy as your Captain or that 1st season dude as your Captain?”
Neither, I would ask to be transferred, report all the infractions, and should there be no consequences I would resign from Starfleet.
1st / 2nd season Archer: no idea what he will do next, completely erratic in his judgments and decisions. Immature judgemental jerk not fit to command a starship, and certainly not represent human kind for first contacts.
“New Archer”: single-minded maniac on a heroic save the earth / revenge mission who doesn’t give a **** what his senior officers have to say. Prone to take reckless hasty decisions.
As for the action-hungry idiots supporting Archer’s actions in this episode, here is how things would have developed in reality:
- Archer threatens to kill the pirate / tortures him
- Pirate gives him wrong co-ordinates (he will be killed anyway when he is returned to his ship if he gives the right ones)
- At best this makes Enterprise loose the trail to find the enemy ship, at worse it gets Enterprise into trouble, like a nasty nebula or something
Torture in this situation is not only unethical, but it is also plainly stupid and counter-productive. So yeah you can call people ‘whiners’ all you want to vent your personal life frustrations but it will not change the fact that this was a bad course of action under more realistic circumstances.
@Dustin - Jan 14, 2019 wrote:
“Ask yourself this question: If you were serving aboard the Enterprise as a lower decks crewman or woman would you rather have this guy as your Captain or that 1st season dude as your Captain?”
Neither, I would ask to be transferred, report all the infractions, and should there be no consequences I would resign from Starfleet.
1st / 2nd season Archer: no idea what he will do next, completely erratic in his judgments and decisions. Immature judgemental jerk not fit to command a starship, and certainly not represent human kind for first contacts.
“New Archer”: single-minded maniac on a heroic save the earth / revenge mission who doesn’t give a **** what his senior officers have to say. Prone to take reckless hasty decisions.
As for the action-hungry idiots supporting Archer’s actions in this episode, here is how things would have developed in reality:
- Archer threatens to kill the pirate / tortures him
- Pirate gives him wrong co-ordinates (he will be killed anyway when he is returned to his ship if he gives the right ones)
- At best this makes Enterprise loose the trail to find the enemy ship, at worse it gets Enterprise into trouble, like a nasty nebula or something
Torture in this situation is not only unethical, but it is also plainly stupid and counter-productive. So yeah you can call people ‘whiners’ all you want to vent your personal life frustrations but it will not change the fact that this was a bad course of action under more realistic circumstances.
Re: ENT S2: Judgment
Never seen ST IV so I don’t know whether it's a rip-off or homage, but what I do know is that it was extremely boring.
Been there already (like O’Brien on Cardassia), but here there is nothing at stake (we all know Archer will get out), it lacks any interesting development for the characters, and presents weird stereotyped Klingon history / cultural commentary.
When O’Brien was tried on Cardassia it felt like it developed organically from the context of the Cardassian society as it had been presented over the series. It felt natural and believable and was interesting to watch through. Here it is manufactured and barely makes sense.
If the judge / system is corrupt or biased before the trial begins, why does he become suddenly open to fair arguments from the defense at the end? Same with the defense lawyer who does a 180, on the basis of what? Lousy speech from Archer? “It’s all worthless, the system is corrupt, society is in decay etc etc” - “On Earth a few guys made a difference” - “Ok you convinced me! I will defend you with almost no chance of success and risk my life for it, it’s worth it!”
Also tired of Archer meddling in foreign affairs, cow boy style, rather than exploring. I mean, sure, the poor refugees are being persecuted, but I actually agree that Archer is guilty here (if he acted within Klingon Empire space). These affairs should be reported to Starfleet / Vulcan High Command for them to resolve. Archer’s actions here could easily prompt a war with the Klingons. What an idiot, really should not be a captain, especially not the first one to roam the galaxy representing the human species!
Never seen ST IV so I don’t know whether it's a rip-off or homage, but what I do know is that it was extremely boring.
Been there already (like O’Brien on Cardassia), but here there is nothing at stake (we all know Archer will get out), it lacks any interesting development for the characters, and presents weird stereotyped Klingon history / cultural commentary.
When O’Brien was tried on Cardassia it felt like it developed organically from the context of the Cardassian society as it had been presented over the series. It felt natural and believable and was interesting to watch through. Here it is manufactured and barely makes sense.
If the judge / system is corrupt or biased before the trial begins, why does he become suddenly open to fair arguments from the defense at the end? Same with the defense lawyer who does a 180, on the basis of what? Lousy speech from Archer? “It’s all worthless, the system is corrupt, society is in decay etc etc” - “On Earth a few guys made a difference” - “Ok you convinced me! I will defend you with almost no chance of success and risk my life for it, it’s worth it!”
Also tired of Archer meddling in foreign affairs, cow boy style, rather than exploring. I mean, sure, the poor refugees are being persecuted, but I actually agree that Archer is guilty here (if he acted within Klingon Empire space). These affairs should be reported to Starfleet / Vulcan High Command for them to resolve. Archer’s actions here could easily prompt a war with the Klingons. What an idiot, really should not be a captain, especially not the first one to roam the galaxy representing the human species!
Re: ENT S1: Fortunate Son
I had to look it up on merriam-webster:
Definition of Moslem:
formerly common but now old-fashioned, increasingly rare, and sometimes offensive variant of MUSLIM
Jammer I get it that you want to limit censorship to its minimum but the amount of biased bs in this thread is too much for my taste. Some of these posts are actually plainly racist.
In any case, regarding this episode, somehow I was very bored by it. Nothing of interest for me, except seeing nausicaans again which is always cool. Play dom-jot human!
I actually enjoy quite a bit that ENT is different in style and tempo to other treks. But the plots need to be a bit more complex or at least raise questions. I just felt like in this episode there was no substance.
I had to look it up on merriam-webster:
Definition of Moslem:
formerly common but now old-fashioned, increasingly rare, and sometimes offensive variant of MUSLIM
Jammer I get it that you want to limit censorship to its minimum but the amount of biased bs in this thread is too much for my taste. Some of these posts are actually plainly racist.
In any case, regarding this episode, somehow I was very bored by it. Nothing of interest for me, except seeing nausicaans again which is always cool. Play dom-jot human!
I actually enjoy quite a bit that ENT is different in style and tempo to other treks. But the plots need to be a bit more complex or at least raise questions. I just felt like in this episode there was no substance.
Re: ENT S1: The Andorian Incident
I was actually laughing out loud, everything reminded me of the A-team (excluding the twist in the end of course).
The poor isolated defenseless villagers being oppressed by local bullies, the a-team showing up and using tricks to get the upper hand, banter along the way, hannibal (Archer) interrogated but making jokes etc.
I was almost expecting an ancestor of Barclay to show up, now that would have been the perfect cameo.
I was actually laughing out loud, everything reminded me of the A-team (excluding the twist in the end of course).
The poor isolated defenseless villagers being oppressed by local bullies, the a-team showing up and using tricks to get the upper hand, banter along the way, hannibal (Archer) interrogated but making jokes etc.
I was almost expecting an ancestor of Barclay to show up, now that would have been the perfect cameo.
Re: VOY S7: Lineage
Wow. The number of people who display no ability whatsoever to empathize with other human beings is really, really scary.
I pity their lives, they are most likely unable to understand half of what is happening around them / why people act like they do. If must be frustrating.
If such an episode is of no interest to you then I really feel bad for you, you are missing so much of the experience to be human.
Wrt Belanna’s actions, just because one understands her motivation and even sympathizes to a certain extent, doesn’t mean she was right to do what she did and should not be sentenced accordingly.
My favorite quote of all these comments is:
“ This episode was just on in the background as my wife and I ate dinner. We repeatedly looked at each other and groaned, and eye-rolled, and sighed at how dreadful and cheesey it was. I would have gotten up and done something about it, except I was still managing to enjoy dinner. But only just.
When both it and my dinner finished, my wife said it was the suckiest episode ever. ”
It is both amusing and depressing. Dude, seriously, I give your marriage 5 years max. If you both are not interested in seeing how others deal with REAL differences and disagreements within a couple, I do not think you will be able to hold yours for long. I wish you luck. When your wife will go through a difficult time, you will probably look at her, groan, eye-roll and sigh. You will probably think bout doing something about it but you will probably still enjoy your dinner while she is languishing in agony.
Actually, there is another quote that had me laughing out loud:
“ I would maintain, however, that the themes of "exploring one's troubled relationship with one's [insert parent]" or "coming to terms with one's [insert psychological trauma or complex]" have no place in a sci-fi show.” Hummmmmmmmmmm.......... star wars?
So funny to see people complaining about trek being “soap-opera”, when it clearly is not. This is not about exaggerated cliches of social situations, it is about dissecting, understanding, theorising about deeply human behaviours. Amalgamating the two is just mind-boggling.
How can someone mainly interested in exploring “science”, with a strong aversion for exploring what it means to be human watch star trek at all? Let alone watch all of TOS, TNG and come this far into VOY!!!??? You should know by now you will not find what you are looking for.
Oh wait, there is STD (glorious abbreviation if there ever was) and Picard now, these shows were made for you guys! Hope you are happy at last. “This is the power of math people!” Yeah plenty of science and no fiction there.
As for someone suggesting that the like / dislike proportions in the thread have a gender bias, as a guy I resent that lol.
Wow. The number of people who display no ability whatsoever to empathize with other human beings is really, really scary.
I pity their lives, they are most likely unable to understand half of what is happening around them / why people act like they do. If must be frustrating.
If such an episode is of no interest to you then I really feel bad for you, you are missing so much of the experience to be human.
Wrt Belanna’s actions, just because one understands her motivation and even sympathizes to a certain extent, doesn’t mean she was right to do what she did and should not be sentenced accordingly.
My favorite quote of all these comments is:
“ This episode was just on in the background as my wife and I ate dinner. We repeatedly looked at each other and groaned, and eye-rolled, and sighed at how dreadful and cheesey it was. I would have gotten up and done something about it, except I was still managing to enjoy dinner. But only just.
When both it and my dinner finished, my wife said it was the suckiest episode ever. ”
It is both amusing and depressing. Dude, seriously, I give your marriage 5 years max. If you both are not interested in seeing how others deal with REAL differences and disagreements within a couple, I do not think you will be able to hold yours for long. I wish you luck. When your wife will go through a difficult time, you will probably look at her, groan, eye-roll and sigh. You will probably think bout doing something about it but you will probably still enjoy your dinner while she is languishing in agony.
Actually, there is another quote that had me laughing out loud:
“ I would maintain, however, that the themes of "exploring one's troubled relationship with one's [insert parent]" or "coming to terms with one's [insert psychological trauma or complex]" have no place in a sci-fi show.” Hummmmmmmmmmm.......... star wars?
So funny to see people complaining about trek being “soap-opera”, when it clearly is not. This is not about exaggerated cliches of social situations, it is about dissecting, understanding, theorising about deeply human behaviours. Amalgamating the two is just mind-boggling.
How can someone mainly interested in exploring “science”, with a strong aversion for exploring what it means to be human watch star trek at all? Let alone watch all of TOS, TNG and come this far into VOY!!!??? You should know by now you will not find what you are looking for.
Oh wait, there is STD (glorious abbreviation if there ever was) and Picard now, these shows were made for you guys! Hope you are happy at last. “This is the power of math people!” Yeah plenty of science and no fiction there.
As for someone suggesting that the like / dislike proportions in the thread have a gender bias, as a guy I resent that lol.
Re: VOY S7: Flesh and Blood
Oh and the rock that goes through a hologram!? But then phaser rifles ‘kill’ holograms!? What does it even mean to kill a hologram? So weird.
Oh and the rock that goes through a hologram!? But then phaser rifles ‘kill’ holograms!? What does it even mean to kill a hologram? So weird.
Re: VOY S7: Flesh and Blood
Came out from seeing this episode thinking it was a 3.5* but after reading these comments and reflecting on it too many things bother me so I would be more at 2.5* unfortunately.
As often with VOY 2-parters, 1st half is excellent and the 2nd half kills it.
I really found the characterisations, dilemmas, questions raised very interesting in the first half. Seemed like nobody was being evil for the sake of it, just that the justified agendas of different people were in conflict (hirogens vs holos, janeway vs doc, etc.) and it was interesting to see how janeway had to deal with ethics, priorities, friendships etc. All was unfolding in an organic manner (pun intended).
But the gripes are too strong, especially how things unfold in the second half:
- Iirc, doc’s matrix was too large / complex to even consider duplicating it on voyager, it is pretty much taking all the memory of voyager as it is. But now they can store many sapient holos on voyager no problem? The issue is not really that it contradicts previously established technical barriers (would not be the first time), but that it opens to so many questions: why not create a duplicate of the doc? Why not have an army of good holos doing a bunch of stuff on voy, etc.
- iden’s transformation to mad evil holo. Granted there are *some* signs that he might have a devious side to his personality. But I considered these to be either attributable to immaturity (he did not think through the ethical consequences of torturing someone by imposing the hunt memories on doc) or that these were extreme measures for extreme circumstances (abducting belanna is done in the heat of the action, he needs it to save the holos, and there is no way he could have taken the time to convince janeway about it). He has held true to his word of returning the doctor, he has clear political objectives and a consistent ethical behaviour. He really switches to full evil much too quickly. Such a murderous and radical/fanatic personality would have transpired much differently in the situations in the first half. It is painfully obvious this is a contrivance the writers had to resort to in order to close the story with explosions and warn humanity about the dangers of AI - very clumsy and lazy if you ask me. Also once again toying with the viewers’ emotions for the sake of it. You thought he was a good leader and you liked the idea of self-determination for holograms? Aha! He’s a bad guy who kills people!
- And of course janeway as usual making arbitrary decisions in direct contradiction with previous characterisation. I am of course referring to her not punishing doc for treason / disobeying orders. Either way you look at it it’s bad. Either she does it out of compassion and it’s wrong compared to her treatment of tom previously. Or it’s because she thinks the doc is just a hologram who does not have agency, which makes her look quite narrow-minded. Picard had a much more adult approach to this with Data.
Came out from seeing this episode thinking it was a 3.5* but after reading these comments and reflecting on it too many things bother me so I would be more at 2.5* unfortunately.
As often with VOY 2-parters, 1st half is excellent and the 2nd half kills it.
I really found the characterisations, dilemmas, questions raised very interesting in the first half. Seemed like nobody was being evil for the sake of it, just that the justified agendas of different people were in conflict (hirogens vs holos, janeway vs doc, etc.) and it was interesting to see how janeway had to deal with ethics, priorities, friendships etc. All was unfolding in an organic manner (pun intended).
But the gripes are too strong, especially how things unfold in the second half:
- Iirc, doc’s matrix was too large / complex to even consider duplicating it on voyager, it is pretty much taking all the memory of voyager as it is. But now they can store many sapient holos on voyager no problem? The issue is not really that it contradicts previously established technical barriers (would not be the first time), but that it opens to so many questions: why not create a duplicate of the doc? Why not have an army of good holos doing a bunch of stuff on voy, etc.
- iden’s transformation to mad evil holo. Granted there are *some* signs that he might have a devious side to his personality. But I considered these to be either attributable to immaturity (he did not think through the ethical consequences of torturing someone by imposing the hunt memories on doc) or that these were extreme measures for extreme circumstances (abducting belanna is done in the heat of the action, he needs it to save the holos, and there is no way he could have taken the time to convince janeway about it). He has held true to his word of returning the doctor, he has clear political objectives and a consistent ethical behaviour. He really switches to full evil much too quickly. Such a murderous and radical/fanatic personality would have transpired much differently in the situations in the first half. It is painfully obvious this is a contrivance the writers had to resort to in order to close the story with explosions and warn humanity about the dangers of AI - very clumsy and lazy if you ask me. Also once again toying with the viewers’ emotions for the sake of it. You thought he was a good leader and you liked the idea of self-determination for holograms? Aha! He’s a bad guy who kills people!
- And of course janeway as usual making arbitrary decisions in direct contradiction with previous characterisation. I am of course referring to her not punishing doc for treason / disobeying orders. Either way you look at it it’s bad. Either she does it out of compassion and it’s wrong compared to her treatment of tom previously. Or it’s because she thinks the doc is just a hologram who does not have agency, which makes her look quite narrow-minded. Picard had a much more adult approach to this with Data.
Re: VOY S7: Inside Man
Once again, Janeway is the worst captain of all trek.
She was basically going to kill the whole crew. Difference here is that the rest of the crew can also be blamed for complete incompetence and stupidity.
Some random hologram shows up, no verification that it is genuine starfleet approved, babbles some theory about getting home, many of the senior officers express concerns or even disbelief, but let’s go for it, sure, after all what’s the worst that could happen, we all die that’s all, let’s chance it.
Belanna and Paris are actually mean to Harry in the closing segment. A-holes. Certainly wouldnt want these guys as friends.
Ferengi willing to kill 150 people for profit. They are basically criminals, mass murderers. How about Starfleet hailing them and telling them that 1/ they stop right away and 2/ they will be brought to justice for attempted mass murder. No? Ok just let them go.
Reg’s superior is acting just like in the previous Barclay episode, not taking Barclay seriously / treating him like he is deranged (hasnt he learned that Barclay is pretty much always right?). He should be demoted.
Yeah really bad. The writers really have no respect for the audience at this point any more.
Still enjoyed Schultz’ performance, but I dont know why it does not have the same impact as in TNG, it felt more contrived or just a bit used. I guess the issue is also that after the previous barclay episode, Reg should be at least a bit more confident. He found his place, was promoted, had a whole project to run, probably gained the confidence and trust of starfleet at the highest level, found friends with voyager, etc. But it just seems we are back to the old timid Barclay from the beginning of TNG. It’s frustrating and not interesting.
I was sort of excited to see a confident version of barclay accomplish things on voyager, almost as if it happened in a dream or an alternate reality for the real Reg. But no, they had to make him evil.
These writers are so lazy, or just not interested in the universe and/or the characters.
Once again, Janeway is the worst captain of all trek.
She was basically going to kill the whole crew. Difference here is that the rest of the crew can also be blamed for complete incompetence and stupidity.
Some random hologram shows up, no verification that it is genuine starfleet approved, babbles some theory about getting home, many of the senior officers express concerns or even disbelief, but let’s go for it, sure, after all what’s the worst that could happen, we all die that’s all, let’s chance it.
Belanna and Paris are actually mean to Harry in the closing segment. A-holes. Certainly wouldnt want these guys as friends.
Ferengi willing to kill 150 people for profit. They are basically criminals, mass murderers. How about Starfleet hailing them and telling them that 1/ they stop right away and 2/ they will be brought to justice for attempted mass murder. No? Ok just let them go.
Reg’s superior is acting just like in the previous Barclay episode, not taking Barclay seriously / treating him like he is deranged (hasnt he learned that Barclay is pretty much always right?). He should be demoted.
Yeah really bad. The writers really have no respect for the audience at this point any more.
Still enjoyed Schultz’ performance, but I dont know why it does not have the same impact as in TNG, it felt more contrived or just a bit used. I guess the issue is also that after the previous barclay episode, Reg should be at least a bit more confident. He found his place, was promoted, had a whole project to run, probably gained the confidence and trust of starfleet at the highest level, found friends with voyager, etc. But it just seems we are back to the old timid Barclay from the beginning of TNG. It’s frustrating and not interesting.
I was sort of excited to see a confident version of barclay accomplish things on voyager, almost as if it happened in a dream or an alternate reality for the real Reg. But no, they had to make him evil.
These writers are so lazy, or just not interested in the universe and/or the characters.
Re: VOY S6: Dragon's Teeth
@Caedus you are a royal idiot and/or a troll.
Screw you back, but 10 times more!
Sure Seven was a bit careless by getting one guy out of stasis, but seriously how much harm can one guy do? Do you have this little confidence in our trained and experienced starfleet officers that you you think they could not handle one humanoid waking from stasis?
The blame (I want to say: as always is the case, but I will just say: as often is the case) is of course 99.99% on Janeway. She woke up the entire army before figuring out what these guys had been up to and why their world had been obliterated 900 years ago. Cant be that they were a menacing society, they had to be victims of course. It’s not like they are hiding in caves with a small army of warships ready to be used the minute they wake up. Also as others have mentioned if she had not antagonised the Turei she would not have put the ship & crew at risk in the first place. Just imagine the same scene with Kirk or Picard, or Sisko, or even Jellico. Guaranteed they would have become best buds with the Turei by the end of the episode.
And to think she goes on explicitly blaming Seven to her face after all this. Just makes you think she is not only a reckless bad captain, but probably completely delusional too.
Almost every episode of VOY there should be a mutiny relieving Janeway of command. Her character is so badly written it’s unbelievable, and as I have said before it unfortunately does more harm than good for the gender equality cause.
@Caedus you are a royal idiot and/or a troll.
Screw you back, but 10 times more!
Sure Seven was a bit careless by getting one guy out of stasis, but seriously how much harm can one guy do? Do you have this little confidence in our trained and experienced starfleet officers that you you think they could not handle one humanoid waking from stasis?
The blame (I want to say: as always is the case, but I will just say: as often is the case) is of course 99.99% on Janeway. She woke up the entire army before figuring out what these guys had been up to and why their world had been obliterated 900 years ago. Cant be that they were a menacing society, they had to be victims of course. It’s not like they are hiding in caves with a small army of warships ready to be used the minute they wake up. Also as others have mentioned if she had not antagonised the Turei she would not have put the ship & crew at risk in the first place. Just imagine the same scene with Kirk or Picard, or Sisko, or even Jellico. Guaranteed they would have become best buds with the Turei by the end of the episode.
And to think she goes on explicitly blaming Seven to her face after all this. Just makes you think she is not only a reckless bad captain, but probably completely delusional too.
Almost every episode of VOY there should be a mutiny relieving Janeway of command. Her character is so badly written it’s unbelievable, and as I have said before it unfortunately does more harm than good for the gender equality cause.
Re: VOY S5: Course: Oblivion
@Peter G.
Absolutely, I do agree with your point that in some instances the critic will create more meaning or value than there actually is in the work being reviewed.
I am just not sure that is the case here. Or at least not completely. @Proteus’ reflexion indeed probably goes much deeper than the writers ever thought. That being said, this episode (as I remember it) is so depressing — it portrays a facsimile Voyager crew being unsuccessful at everything they try, ultimately leading to their death — that I would contend their story arc, with all its dramatic weight, was the intention of the writers. This is what triggered people to reflect on it in many interesting ways (with all the posts above), so I do think this episode definitely has something to it!
@Peter G.
Absolutely, I do agree with your point that in some instances the critic will create more meaning or value than there actually is in the work being reviewed.
I am just not sure that is the case here. Or at least not completely. @Proteus’ reflexion indeed probably goes much deeper than the writers ever thought. That being said, this episode (as I remember it) is so depressing — it portrays a facsimile Voyager crew being unsuccessful at everything they try, ultimately leading to their death — that I would contend their story arc, with all its dramatic weight, was the intention of the writers. This is what triggered people to reflect on it in many interesting ways (with all the posts above), so I do think this episode definitely has something to it!
Re: VOY S6: Equinox, Part II
What a terrible episode.
Pretty much everything has been said above:
- Janeway is horrible, turning into a cold blooded murderer twice (mass murder on the second attempt)
- Ransom’s change of heart makes no sense, it’s just a contrivance to close the episode
- Chakotay / Tuvok should have relieved her of command, she was a madman. As in not that I personally think they should have (which I do), but in the sense that their characters as we know them for the past 5 seasons would have never allowed things to go that far
- The doc’s behavior makes no sense, ethical subroutines deleted or not, it makes no sense they are easily removable anyway without major impact on other aspects of his mind/functionalities
- Voyager should have outgunned the Equinox in an instant
- Voyager’s tactics to follow the Equinox into the atmosphere is so stupid
- Voyager’s security team are really the worst of starfleet, couldnt stop a few scientists who escaped the brig
Etc. Etc. Etc.
First part set up was so good I knew they would end up butchering everything in part 2. There were so many interesting ways to take this.
But I would say above all, not being a feminist (or woman) myself, I liked the idea that in the 90s they were promoting gender equality with a female captain... but when you look at episodes like this one, it actually achieves the opposite, many people will draw the conclusion (consciously or subconsciously) that the last thing they want is a woman in command. Everyone involved would have been much better off with Chakotay or Tuvok at the helm.
What a horrible show.
What a terrible episode.
Pretty much everything has been said above:
- Janeway is horrible, turning into a cold blooded murderer twice (mass murder on the second attempt)
- Ransom’s change of heart makes no sense, it’s just a contrivance to close the episode
- Chakotay / Tuvok should have relieved her of command, she was a madman. As in not that I personally think they should have (which I do), but in the sense that their characters as we know them for the past 5 seasons would have never allowed things to go that far
- The doc’s behavior makes no sense, ethical subroutines deleted or not, it makes no sense they are easily removable anyway without major impact on other aspects of his mind/functionalities
- Voyager should have outgunned the Equinox in an instant
- Voyager’s tactics to follow the Equinox into the atmosphere is so stupid
- Voyager’s security team are really the worst of starfleet, couldnt stop a few scientists who escaped the brig
Etc. Etc. Etc.
First part set up was so good I knew they would end up butchering everything in part 2. There were so many interesting ways to take this.
But I would say above all, not being a feminist (or woman) myself, I liked the idea that in the 90s they were promoting gender equality with a female captain... but when you look at episodes like this one, it actually achieves the opposite, many people will draw the conclusion (consciously or subconsciously) that the last thing they want is a woman in command. Everyone involved would have been much better off with Chakotay or Tuvok at the helm.
What a horrible show.
Re: VOY S5: Course: Oblivion
@Peter G.
You could say the same about a lot of (modern) art. And you might feel that way about it, which is fine, but one of the key aspects about modern art is INTENT. A pile of dirt meant to be an exquisite meal is just a failure. A pile of dirt served for dinner, but meant to be a pile of dirt, actually has *some* artistic value. It is meant to create reactions / thoughts / emotions. Not great art if you ask me but still art, at least in my book.
I personally found this episode wonderful, for several reasons:
1- it is different, it stands out. Bleak, no happy ending, no technobabble saving grace etc. For that alone it is worth watching. Watching VOY episode after episode just felt like the same recipe served over and over again. This in a weird way is refreshing.
2- it makes people think about their life, and life in general (see all the comments on this website)
3- fake within fake becomes real: the duplicate mimetic voyager in the TV show actually has the most realistic fate — failure at everything it attempts and ultimately death (even though that crew was ‘better’ at pretty much everything compared to the original crew). So much has been said about how unrealistic voyager is, they should have a hard time finding resources, etc etc. Well there you have it, this is the realistic fate of a voyager lost in the delta quadrant. They dont make it home because the ship and the people decay and cannot find the resources on the way.
@Peter G.
You could say the same about a lot of (modern) art. And you might feel that way about it, which is fine, but one of the key aspects about modern art is INTENT. A pile of dirt meant to be an exquisite meal is just a failure. A pile of dirt served for dinner, but meant to be a pile of dirt, actually has *some* artistic value. It is meant to create reactions / thoughts / emotions. Not great art if you ask me but still art, at least in my book.
I personally found this episode wonderful, for several reasons:
1- it is different, it stands out. Bleak, no happy ending, no technobabble saving grace etc. For that alone it is worth watching. Watching VOY episode after episode just felt like the same recipe served over and over again. This in a weird way is refreshing.
2- it makes people think about their life, and life in general (see all the comments on this website)
3- fake within fake becomes real: the duplicate mimetic voyager in the TV show actually has the most realistic fate — failure at everything it attempts and ultimately death (even though that crew was ‘better’ at pretty much everything compared to the original crew). So much has been said about how unrealistic voyager is, they should have a hard time finding resources, etc etc. Well there you have it, this is the realistic fate of a voyager lost in the delta quadrant. They dont make it home because the ship and the people decay and cannot find the resources on the way.
Re: VOY S4: Retrospect
It is extremely frustrating to watch these episodes where characters make 180 turns on positions without explanation.
Almost as if the writers want to confuse the audience on purpose. Here for instance Janeway goes from sensible and rational investigation to concluding Seven made it all up, and then accusing her of the consequences (the way she looks at her when the guy blows himself up).
It is also depressing to come on this site to try and find answers (or at least interesting interpretations) that can provide clarity, only to find 90% of the posts being biased opinions with heavy preconceived political messages.
There is no evidence that the arms dealer is guilty or innocent. What’s the point of trying to infer whether he is or not, based on his reaction, or statistical data of false vs true claims, or whether Seven’s story is believeable, etc? We just don’t know, so he remains innocent, from a legal perspective. Given the facts presented there is nothing more to say or do about it, that’s it.
What is truly appalling however is that for some reason, the fact that he is not proven guilty automatically seems to mean that Seven made it all up and is at fault!!! This is so wrong on many levels. We actually don’t know, it has NOT been established, so 2 possibilities exist:
1/ If Seven indeed made it all up, it means she is in a pretty bad place psychologically speaking and needs support. She is a member of the crew (the ‘family’ as the show has tried to convince us so many times), she should be helped. Seeing Janeway blaming Seven really is revolting. That’s right, as the SINGLE and ONLY authority figure in these people’s life, blame them when they are in distress and something bad happens to them, that’s the right approach. I can only pray the writers did not have kids themselves because these poor little ones must have gotten messed up pretty bad. What I wanted to see here is compassion and much more discussion with Seven to try and help her as she has extreme difficulty dealing with this and more generally adapting to her new situation.
2/ If the arms dealer actually did violate Seven, well, it means Janeway is blaming the victim, great
The only thing I am wondering is whether the writers are idiots/incompetent, lazy, or purposely making Janeway’s actions and reactions contentious / provocative for the sake of it. If I had to guess I would say it is all of the above. In any case that shows contempt for the audience, and this is where I see a big difference with TNG. I only felt respect as a viewer when watching TNG. Whereas with VOY I feel like I am being played with, confused gratuitously more often than not.
It is extremely frustrating to watch these episodes where characters make 180 turns on positions without explanation.
Almost as if the writers want to confuse the audience on purpose. Here for instance Janeway goes from sensible and rational investigation to concluding Seven made it all up, and then accusing her of the consequences (the way she looks at her when the guy blows himself up).
It is also depressing to come on this site to try and find answers (or at least interesting interpretations) that can provide clarity, only to find 90% of the posts being biased opinions with heavy preconceived political messages.
There is no evidence that the arms dealer is guilty or innocent. What’s the point of trying to infer whether he is or not, based on his reaction, or statistical data of false vs true claims, or whether Seven’s story is believeable, etc? We just don’t know, so he remains innocent, from a legal perspective. Given the facts presented there is nothing more to say or do about it, that’s it.
What is truly appalling however is that for some reason, the fact that he is not proven guilty automatically seems to mean that Seven made it all up and is at fault!!! This is so wrong on many levels. We actually don’t know, it has NOT been established, so 2 possibilities exist:
1/ If Seven indeed made it all up, it means she is in a pretty bad place psychologically speaking and needs support. She is a member of the crew (the ‘family’ as the show has tried to convince us so many times), she should be helped. Seeing Janeway blaming Seven really is revolting. That’s right, as the SINGLE and ONLY authority figure in these people’s life, blame them when they are in distress and something bad happens to them, that’s the right approach. I can only pray the writers did not have kids themselves because these poor little ones must have gotten messed up pretty bad. What I wanted to see here is compassion and much more discussion with Seven to try and help her as she has extreme difficulty dealing with this and more generally adapting to her new situation.
2/ If the arms dealer actually did violate Seven, well, it means Janeway is blaming the victim, great
The only thing I am wondering is whether the writers are idiots/incompetent, lazy, or purposely making Janeway’s actions and reactions contentious / provocative for the sake of it. If I had to guess I would say it is all of the above. In any case that shows contempt for the audience, and this is where I see a big difference with TNG. I only felt respect as a viewer when watching TNG. Whereas with VOY I feel like I am being played with, confused gratuitously more often than not.
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