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wolfstar
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 6:13am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

What I'm saying (submitted comment too soon) is the "time crystals" shouldn't be defended based on the Orb of Time, as the Orb of Time wasn't a particularly good precedent, and its usage was also different (it was just used to tell two standalone stories set in the past).
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wolfstar
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 6:03am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I think the "time crystals" are ridiculous, but the Orb of Time wasn't particularly well-used either and probably wasn't a good idea. It's only in two episodes and is used in both just as a tool to tell a story set in the past - in Trials And Tribbleations, it's merely a writer's workaround to facilitate the anniversary crossover episode, and its usage in its sole other outing (Wrongs Darker Than Death Or Night) threw up more questions than it answered - most people seem to agree that that ep would have worked better if Kira was merely seeing a vision of the past, rather than the Orb actually having sent her back in time.
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Lynos
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 5:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

To a degree it's sort of a rant, yes, but it is very different than the typical rant I see on YouTube. I don't think it's the choice of words that "qualifies" something to be a rant, it's the quality of the argument. Some people just use strong words but don't have a lot to back up their claims. The words are a result of, as you say, him being emotional. It doesn't void his arguments.

I think he makes his point rather eloquently, though, but of course you might disagree.
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Booming
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 4:40am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Lynos

It don't think that it is that smart. I'm puzzled how people just accept the orb of time in DS9 or flying around the sun and timing it in a way that gets you to a certain point which is both complete fantasy but time crystals are heresy.

I would also call that very much a rant. "poop, ridiculously stupid, bad science fiction makes people stupid, I hate it (says that more than half a dozen times), bastardized, none of it makes sense, it diminishes people watching it, brain dead, dumbest idea, egregious, and it goes on and on like this.

The critique of Discovery is often so emotional.
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Booming
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 4:14am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ SlackerInc
spoilers for leftovers

The smoking people who didn't talk. In one of the last episodes the protagonist became president and said in a speech (I'm paraphrasing): "smoking was dumb and this was dumb and that was dumb so we stopped doing that."
I wanted to throw my non-existent remote at the screen. Teasing the audience several seasons about these strange people and why they do what they do and then having the protagonist giving the audience the finger and just saying:It had no reason. Psych!
I will never watch a Lindelof show again.

And about SMG's Vulcan -> Human transformation. That kind of made sense to me
Until the point where the show starts Burnham leads a life that allows a human to behave like a Vulcan (promising career, good personal support system,relatively save environment) but that slowly unravels. She loses here career (even though she kind of gets it back later), she loses parts of her support system often in terrible ways. She loses her mentor who gets killed in front of her and she also loses her friends from the Shenzhou like the guy on that sections 31 ship who then was just a copy made by control. Plus her work environment is anything but save. She has to suffer through a lot of trauma. That her human (emotional) side would take over under these circumstances, at least to me, makes sense.
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Milo
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 3:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Through the Valley of Shadows

Tenavik is a Romulan name.

sheesh, these DSC writers...
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lynos
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 3:16am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I highly recommend listening to this guy, especially if you find yourself having issues with Discovery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVxSC5wHSig

The relevant part is between 00:34 min. and 00:58 min.

Burnett is the director of the feature film Free Enterprise, a long time Trekkie, and is part of the industry (he produced special features for many genre DVD's, including Star Trek: TMP), so I think his take is worthwhile. He has encyclopedic knowledge of Trek and of movies in general, and is quite knowledgeable regarding the genesis and production of Discovery.

I find his take is rather brilliant and doesn't come off as a rant but as genuine, thoughtful criticism.
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SlackerInc
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:00am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Ghosted: Good point about her losing her Vulcanisms. I had forgotten she even had them until you reminded me. Feels like yet another retcon. Has anyone read any behind-the-scenes stuff about the writers deciding this change was needed? Did SMG insist that she needed to show off her "deeply emotive face" more?

Alan is right that the queen was introduced months ago, in between seasons. What he didn't mention (and probably doesn't agree with) is that that was easily the worst of the "Short Treks". Just awful. (My favorite, FWIW, was the one set far in the future.)

@Brian Lear: "Basically if you are holding out hope that the writers are holding a royal flush, you're about to be bitterly disappointed. They've got a pair of jacks, maybe."

Hah! As a poker player myself, I loved this. The rest of your comment was spot on as well.

@Booming: I cosign your and OTDP's take on "LOST". But I actually loved "The Leftovers", at least once it got going late in the first season and especially in the second and third seasons. What "group" were you referring to there?
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I’m With Reg
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 1:29am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Adversary

Watching DS9 “back-to-back”, it’s not always easy to keep track of the seasons as they progress, except by changes in hairdos— or rank! With a season finale it’s to be expected, of course, but I do have an aversion to those plots which see everybody off on a mission. With the entire senior staff crewing the Defiant, who’s in charge on the station? Isn’t it still possible that the Dominion could come through the wormhole in force at any time? It’s not even clear (watching the episode for the first time and spoiler-free) what Kira and Odo are doing on a purely Federation mission.

By the end, the need for Odo to be present is obvious, of course — although it’s still not clear why Kira came along for the ride.

Minor niggle: does O’Brien really believe Sisko is the best captain in Starfleet? I know his interactions with Picard were limited ( often to just one word) and he is working close-quarters with Sisko, but really?

Now that I am three seasons in, never having seen DS9 before, I have to say that it’s a massive annoyance to me that the Changelings were named Changelings by the writers. In British folklore, a changeling is a fairy infant, placed in a cradle in exchange for a human child who they have stolen. A changeling child would (like a cuckoo in the nest) be raised by its human “parents” while always seeming something “other”. The Dominion shapeshifters are not changelings, but “changeable”. I would have preferred Metamorphs, with a colloquialism such as “werewater” (as in werewolf, with the prefix “were” denoting “man” in Old English) applied by the humanoid inhabitants of the Gamma Quadrant, based on their limited interactions.
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RandomThoughts
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 1:05am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S6: The Voyager Conspiracy

Hello Everyone!

I remember thinking how it would have taken Tash longer to build the catapult by himself, from scratch, than the ten years it would take him to fly home.

If there were no conspiracies, then I wonder who the race was that just happened to be there, cloaked, waiting for Voyager to blow up the array with their finger hovering over the button for their tractor beam? Since they'd had no contact with each other, how did they even realize Voyager was going to destroy it in the first place? And it had to be real, because the power source turned up in the catapult. Right?

I thought both of the conspiracies hinged on the tractor beam, and it made it mildly more plausible to them because of it. Without that tidbit, they just send Seven to Doctor for tests. I wouldn't have minded that they wrote it that way so much, if they hadn't ignored this big mystery at the end. Now, if it had been a Romulan ship they'd seen, and not Cardassian with no cloak, maybe. But that would destroy one of the conspiracies... sigh...

Does a tractor beam keep an item from being damaged/destroyed as it's removed from a massive explosion, during the time it would take to move it?

Acting saved this one a bit, but the holes were bigger than I could swallow.

Have a Great Day, Everyone... RT
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Booming
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 12:43am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I agree with Daya. You asked for an example, Omicron, of smart writing and subverting the whole Mary Sure issue would certainly be an interesting concept.
I never bought the whole Mary Sue argument to begin with, though. To me Burnham was always a flawed character.

My example of... well maybe not ingenious but interesting writing were the meta comments that permeated the show. For example the whole Mary Sue offshoot debate about Burnham being the center of everything. People were often complaining about that which I found a bit disingenuous because the show was always advertised as such. Also an interesting choice after all the other shows had the captain as the focal point which in part explains why people love their daddy aka Pike so much and some even demand that he should be more dominating. Admittedly, they focused maybe too much on her and forgot the lesser characters a bit.

The meta comment about all this which I found kind of nice was the debate between Spock and Michael while playing chess. Spock bluntly says that Michael is putting everything on herself all the time like she has some sort of savior complex. I'm not sure if that was actually smart writing. In the sense that they created her that way so people would complain and then make that meta comment to show: "We know that she is too often the center of everything but that is actually another character flaw which you, the audience, saw as her being forced into everything." but of course it could also be them just giving the audience a nod that they realized that they had overdone it a bit.
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Daya
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 11:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

At first I thought it's a non sequitur as well. But after thinking about it, it is actually a good example of the kind requested. Thanks, Alan Roi. Let's move on to other topics as Jammer seems to have asked us to.
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Jammer
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 10:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I think this thread has run its course.
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Alan Roi
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

A response as expected. A bad faith response and goalpost moving and an absolute refusal to respond at all to the narrative development I brought up. Yep, bait and switch again as always.
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Circasian
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:26pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

Yeah, you can't really pull "now that your existence has proven inconvenient to us, we have decided that your personhood was never even real!"
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meister
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: A Matter of Time

6/10

As soon as I saw that guy , I groaned. Is it just TNG that I know him from? Doe she always play an annoying character?

It was good to see the Enterrpise screw up. And would they really risk killing 20 million rather than 2000? the odds of killing everyone must have been very low.
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Peter G.
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Q2

"There are good Q episodes, bad ones, and this ugly one."

This was indeed a fistful of stupid.
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Rahul
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 8:55pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Q2

Here's an episode that never should have been made. I could barely make it through the hour. What has VOY done to the Q?? Far worse than what it did to the Borg. This takes it to an all-time low. Nothing funny in this idiotic episode that loosely seems like a beggar's version of "Charlie X". The whole premise makes no sense -- that omnipotent beings would come to Janeway to straighten out their offspring. This is not sci-fi -- it's garbage. Just an attempt to get one more de Lancie / Mulgrew outing (since they are both good actors) -- not that that helped "The Q and the Grey" work well.

What really bugs me about the episode is that just when there might be some albeit trite lesson for Q Jr. and therefore some kind of moral or real consequence, the episode basically resets. In the end, Q Jr. isn't stuck being a human, he gets all his powers back and the Q Continuum is made to look like a farce. What was the point? Did Q Jr. really grasp the self-sacrifice thing?

Also, the usual stupid Q tricks are very old. And making 7 naked is just "Threshold" -level bad. The first half hour was cringeworthy and the second half hour wasn't much better. The Icheb character had a chance to act outside its box but it was more stiff acting.

0.5 stars for "Q2" -- like I said, this episode never should have been made. The only redeemable thing here for me was Mulgrew/Janeway acting the right way given the terrible script -- she was convincing in trying to do her part to help Q Jr. even though the whole premise is ludicrous. What has the Q Continuum become... There are good Q episodes, bad ones, and this ugly one.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 8:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

Oh, you mean like that 100+ comments debate on religion that I too participated in a few months ago?

Got it. ;-)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 8:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Daya
"I think Alan Roi would be a little sceptical of answering the question because if he gives us an example of great plotting, some of us may not think it is great plotting."

I can understand the feeling, but isn't it a bit late for that?

A person can't go half-way. You can't come into a thread and call half the people morons for "not paying attention", make extraordinary claims about some master plan of plotting that every single one of us missed, and then refusing to back up these statements with something substantial.

And yes, others may reject his examples. Others may disagree. Why should anyone who is interested in an honest discussion be afraid of that?

The "bad-faith" concern is more serious, but that's a concern we all share on the internet. And it still doesn't mean that dropping bombshells and than refusing to explain yourself is good idea. I mean... you aren't doing anyone else a favor by explaining your position, are you?

Well, at least we are getting some answers now:

@Alan Roi
"This is exactly the bad faith that Daya mentioned. I don't have to come up with something and compelling and worth looking over again, it has to be "super-complex ingenious" as you state above."

It doesn't "have" to be anything. I've used these words because your posts have set very high (perhaps unrealistic) expectations.

At any rate, this isn't some kind of test. I simply want us to be able to discuss the issue openly. Because let's face it: Keeping things at the general level of "this show is a 500-page novel and you're all too stupid to understand it" versus "who needs all this complexity? give me some brain-dead action" is not getting us anywhere useful.

We need to start discussing the specifics.

"Now, there's the insistance that the universe in Discovery revolves around Burnham in such a way that many still insist she is a 'Mary Sue". So when it's repeatedly demonstartae she was just in many ways just a handy tool for Sarek, Lorca, Stamets and Emperor Georgious to use help them achieve their own personal ambitions that hammered on point is ignored by detractors in favor of the "everybody loves her for no reason" when in fact its "certain people were looking for someone to use to advance their own cause and she was there to be taken advantage of because she was desperate to make up for her own percieved failures," and actually acts to pretty cruelly subvert the whole intent of the "Mary Sue" wish fulfilment narrative.

Identifying this subversion, however, would tear down one of the main pillars of criticism for this series however, so I honestly don't expect many committed detractors to be interested in looking into my assertion here. "

What the heck does this answer have to do with my question? I've asked for an example of a smart long-term planning by the writers that proves that they know what they are doing. You give a rebuttal to the Mary Sue argument, which has absolutely nothing to do with my query. Again.

How does your answer support the notion that the DSC universe is more coherent than it seems at first glance?

By now I'm pretty sure that you're just messing with us. You don't have anything. If you did, you would have given a genuine example that supports your claim rather than answer with yet another non-sequitur.
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Liam
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 7:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

"I was hoping New Eden ties into the Calypso short Trek episode, and the finale, in some way. I expected the guy from Calypso to be a far-future ancestor of the scientist in New Eden. "

I wouldn't worry, everything is related to everything else on this show.
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Trent
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 6:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

Oh, thanks for that. Hadn't reached that episode in my re-watch yet. I'm trying to re-watch of all episodes before the final is aired.

I was hoping New Eden ties into the Calypso short Trek episode, and the finale, in some way. I expected the guy from Calypso to be a far-future ancestor of the scientist in New Eden.

Hastily binging these episodes, one quickly notices the subtle difference between the styles of the directors. I would actually say Kurtzman is the best director on the show thus far; his direction is the most cinematic, a cut above everyone else's, and his pilot juggles comedy, action and the entire cast well. Next is Frakes, who IMO directs the next two best episodes after the pilot. The others are pretty disposable, other than David Barrett (Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad in season 1, and Saints of Imperfection in this season). I wouldn't say these episodes are good, but they have interesting and great moments, and are similarly audacious.

I would say Olatunde Osunsanmi is the worst director (this episode and Point of Light, and he's directing the finale). Though on a show like this, the director is at the mercy of their script.
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Alan Roi
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 6:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@Trent

We know why Dr. Burnham set up the colony on Terralysium. It was to test to see if she could alter the timeline in any way and she saw it as proof that she could. We see this from her logs in Perceptual Infinity.
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Trent
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 6:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

A reminder that we still don't know why the Red Angel sets up the colony on New Eden. Why save people from WW3 and plant them halfway across the galaxy?

Surely this has to be revealed in the next episode. That church and colony seems needed by Michael or Michael's mom, maybe because of the black engineer guy down there (needed to fix the suit? Related to Michael?), or perhaps the lights from the church tower (which wouldn't be lit without Pike) provide some kind of crucial, future beacon. Or perhaps the power cell Pike gives the colony has some future significance.

The show's setting up some big mind screw, because a lot of its little puzzle pieces are yet to slot into place.
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Alan Roi
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 5:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@OmicronThetaDeltaPhi

"You've said that this super-complex ingenious plot was set up from day 1"

This is exactly the bad faith that Daya mentioned. I don't have to come up with something and compelling and worth looking over again, it has to be "super-complex ingenious" as you state above.

But here goes. I don't expect you will spare any thought to this, but maybe other people less rigid will:

Now, there's the insistance that the universe in Discovery revolves around Burnham in such a way that many still insist she is a 'Mary Sue". So when it's repeatedly demonstartae she was just in many ways just a handy tool for Sarek, Lorca, Stamets and Emperor Georgious to use help them achieve their own personal ambitions that hammered on point is ignored by detractors in favor of the "everybody loves her for no reason" when in fact its "certain people were looking for someone to use to advance their own cause and she was there to be taken advantage of because she was desperate to make up for her own percieved failures," and actually acts to pretty cruelly subvert the whole intent of the "Mary Sue" wish fulfilment narrative.

Identifying this subversion, however, would tear down one of the main pillars of criticism for this series however, so I honestly don't expect many committed detractors to be interested in looking into my assertion here.
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