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Robert
Sun, May 13, 2018, 5:32am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: What You Leave Behind

Word about Terry Farrell is that she filed a complaint for use of her voice in the episode where Ezri goes to find Worf and they couldn't even contact her abbot this because the dispute was open. There's a perception that Behr went to Farrell and asked nicely to put her picture in the montage and she demanded am obscene amount of money. To my knowledge she wasn't even asked because of the dispute.
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Robert
Sun, Apr 29, 2018, 8:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

"The execution is less so for a VARIETY of reasons. "

I got autocowrecked
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Robert
Sun, Apr 29, 2018, 8:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S5: The Outcast

@Reaper

I appreciate the history lesson and the context, and while I agree with much of what you said there is one thing I take minor issue with.

"From that point of view, the J'naii are the homosexual fascists who succeeded in abolishing "normal" gender relationships and even gender itself and Soren is a brave heterosexual underdog resistance fighter who stands up for heteronormativity and the natural gender binary."

I don't feel this was EVER an intentional reading of the episode. Having the heteronormative person be the persecuted one was an attempt to stick heteronormative persons in your shoes (I think you are LGBTQ if I read your post correctly). I think the idea of that is brilliant. The execution is less so for a valley of reasons. But I really can't feel in my heart that this was done to give bigots a reading where LGBTQ people are evil.
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Other Robert
Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@MidshipmanNorris

Kern is amazingly entertaining in that ep too.

@Tim

"'STAR TREK: DISCOVERY’ SEASON 2 WILL INCLUDE SECTION 31, THE FEDERATION’S EVIL CIA DEEP STATE" from: http://www.newsweek.com/star-trek-discovery-season-2-section-31-black-badge-federation-deep-state-cia-860825"

Loooooooooool, "Actually we had 327 plots to put in season 1 but we could only fit 224 b/c the Internets ran out of space" #temporalwardeletedscenes #tillyisanaugmentforreals #qandneelixpuddingwrestleinseason2


Thanks for the TNG remaster links, amazing to see how much work went in.


@Dom

Yeah the dystopian media corporations selling us constant dystopian futures is at the very least fairly ironic at this point. I listen/support Isaac Arthur's (nonfiction) futurist Youtube channel as it's such a breath of fresh air. Also the Martian (film) was pretty inspiring.

In the indie video game realm, a couple years ago Hyper Light Drifter blew through its Kickstarter goals just by offering a couple screenshots of an intensely neon-colored, verdant postapocalyptic setting. It felt strange and different, and people instantly wanted it. Lately indie games go to a lot of places aesthetically and conceptually that film/TV seem completely unable or unwilling to follow.
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Other Robert
Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 10:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

"As for the actual set, TNG and TOS had very bright bridge sets."

DISCO got me to rewatch TNG 3-6 for the first time in 25 years, and rather than going into a whole tirade, I'll just point out two things:

1. Anyone notice how hyper-futuristic beige/tan ENT-D bridge is feeling these days? All the sweeping curves and warm neutrals--makes you feel like this post-scarcity society has created a space that is not only comfortable (in contrast to the bleakness of deep space) but almost a sacred space for sending its emissaries to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. In contrast, the stark gray utilitarian look of sf these days implies a paucity of imagination, human ambition, and feeling. It's funny, the beiges and tans now feel almost alien, like it should be an Iconian chamber.

2. I had no idea about the HD remastered TNG, which is available on Blu-Ray and that popular streaming service. If you haven't seen it, it looks amazing!

2.5. There is more Klingon characterization in any random 4 minutes of Sins of the Father than the entire season of DISCO. Oops strikethru
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Other Robert
Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 7:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

Ed: "The show could have easily made it clear that at least a few years peace was in the interest of both sides. This is one of many things where the basic scenario is great and a good story is just sitting there waiting to be written and they don't go all the way with it."

Yeah, this would have been way better than wasting a bunch of time in MU.

Maybe in an alternate universe, the writers decided:

En route to penal colony, Michael gets rescued from a Klingon attack by Discovery. Saru becomes acting captain after the captain dies during the mission. Saru gets the exact same arc.

Michael gets stuck on DISCO because war. A bunch of people got killed rescuing her so now they need people in engineering, so she has something to do, and she feels double-guilty.

There is no Lorca, meaning we don't have to go to MU at all. We get to spend that time on getting to know the Klingons as real people/culture instead of props standing in circles in the pilot. (Don't get me wrong, Lorca was great but since he was thrown in the garbage why not just delete him altogether?) Through L'Rell's eyes we see the toll of war and feel them coming to the brink of internal collapse. Maybe the Orion Syndicate has been using the Federation/Klingon conflict as a way to take over Klingon Empire, so Clint Howard still gets his green cameo.

Stamets just deteriorates throughout the season, and the mycelial network weakens due to our misunderstanding and misuse of the it. (If this was supposed to be DISCO's environmental allegory, blaming it all on the evil MU was a serious cop out.) Now we can't make more spore ships and magically beat the Klingons with magic. (Though if you still want to make the MU sojourn for the purpose of showing Burnham a glimpse of !Voq then this could have been handled in a single-episode spore drive malfunction.)

Saru's Kelpian fear of predators and general distaste for mutiny predispose him to agree with Starfleet's plan to nuke Kronos, a plan that gets hatched immediately after the midseason break, because the cloak breaking schemes fail in the time-honored "Mr. Worf, fire" fashion. We spend the whole second half working on the bomb. We get to explore Saru's inner demons and see his struggle with fear vs. Starfleet ideals. Maybe we even have time to for EVERYONE on DISCO to weigh in (Lol, jk).

Michael and crew have to convince Saru there's another way. They hatch a plan with L'Rell, who has spent the season not in the brig, but on Kronos where she has witnessed firsthand that the current path is destroying her people too. It would have been actually interesting to see a fundamentalist revise her views over the course of the season based on her actual interactions with humans. Rather than magically changing because she's been in a cage for months.

All zero-sum Michael/Lorca stuff and Michael/!Georgiou stuff is now replaced with Michael/Saru stuff, which was genuinely interesting in the first few eps and had great potential before being reset. (Think of the friendship we got from Bashir/O'Brien S1 conflict.) It still gets to be a redemption arc for her finally at the end of the season earning Saru's trust and forgiveness. She still loses Tyler, but she has gained a friend or two--not unlike the end of Casablanca (though I realize Casablanca is not a TOS episode).

She waits til the end of the last episode to give the telescope to Saru, at which point it would have been genuinely touching and a visual symbol of the ship getting back to its mission of "discovery".

This route would have been more coherent, told the same story, and requires zero twists (though Tyler/Voq could remain unchanged).

Aside: has anyone noticed when review sites with a white background scatter screenshots of this episode throughout the article, you literally can't see what's in the picture because it's all so dark? The light levels in this episode were insanely low.
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Other Robert
Wed, Feb 7, 2018, 10:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@Yanks "Michael was introduced to us as a kid that lost her parents horribly and was saved by a Vulcan mind meld and eventual adoption and raising by Sarak. That clearly indicated to me that Michael should have personal discipline. I believe Sarak even made comment to this effect when speaking about the meld when he was saving Michael's life."
...
"Every mistake she has made is contrarian to that baseline. Even when she does "lose control" and make mistakes, do you get the opinion watching her that she is really losing control at all?"

For people who were orphaned, I've found this is often a sensitive and explosive topic throughout their lives, and an otherwise very collected person can unravel around the whole topic of what happened to their parents. So for audience members who are orphans, I think the 30-second origin story we got about how she became an orphan probably cuts really deep and works fine for them. (Certainly there are many, many orphans in performing arts, which is probably why it's such a common plot device.)

Seen through this lens, it makes sense Burnham comes unhinged when faced with a Klingon threat, then T'Kuvma's killing of a mother-figure, an event also echoing the death of her bio parents at the hands of Klingons. Also explains her impulsive rescue of !Georgiou despite all common sense. I think maybe Ash's line about "Klingons killed your parents then you fell in love with a Klingon!" has some dramatic weight if you're really keeping all this in mind and feeling it because you too were orphaned. It doesn't take brilliant writing or acting or anything because you are already plugged in.

For the rest of us who are not orphans though, that 30-second obligatory audio-only flashback-in-a-flashback (yo dawg we heard you like flashbacks) where her parents are killed goes by in the blink of an eye, we didn't feel all the feels that an orphan would feel in that moment that sets up this whole season-long arc of her wrestling with the foundational event of her life. We just see a little kid who's scared for a couple seconds by a test. (During that somewhat incoherent scene, it is not SMG, but a brand new actress so we are simultaneously trying to figure out 1) is this a flashback? 2) where are we? 3) when are we? 4) who is that little girl with the Vulcan haircut? 5) what is going on here? 6) Is the bombardment happening in her mind or in the Vulcan school?) So we don't really remember this event in the context of her day-to-day adult decisions 30 years later at all. It certainly doesn't attach directly to her life as it's portrayed in the pilot.

By contrast, in Sisko's pilot episode flashback we at least see him and Jake lose Jennifer in realtime (with our *eyes*), and it brilliantly piggybacked off the emotional baggage we ST fans already had around Wolf 359. It is further cemented by the intense conflict it creates with our most beloved Picard. So even if we personally haven't lost a spouse/parent, we felt Sisko and felt the gravity of that event for his character as a defining moment. It's integral to his character as a single dad, as a widower in a strange place, a commanding officer who has already faced overwhelming opposition in wartime, all topics we get to explore in detail during 26*7 episodes that were properly paced.

With DISCO we were further confused by the label "Star Trek" thinking this story is going to develop an ensemble cast and that Burnham's origin story is a very small piece of a big tapestry. We kept looking for more tapestry, but as we arrive at the end of the season, we are finally forced to conclude that the whole thing really was about Burnham and her origin story was actually pretty much the most important fact of the whole season if we are to derive any meaning from the way they're wrapping things up.

I'm reminded of when I saw Arrival, the first time I'd been in a theater since the birth of my three-year-old daughter. The first 5 minutes of that movie completely gutted me as a parent, and I was weeping despite the fact that I met the character four minutes ago and still had popcorn in my mouth. However, my not-parent friend next to me was completely unphased, just as 10-years-ago-me would have been. As a result, I experienced the movie in a very emotional context... he did not.

If you're an orphan and you're still not buying any of this, then I dunno :)
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Robert T
Sat, Feb 3, 2018, 11:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

120,000 years ago, the world was 2C warmer and sea level 6 meters higher.

We didn't do it.

Neither did CO2.

Science starts with data, notices correlations, looks for causality, develops a hypothesis, deduces necessary consequences from it, looks for those, tests it, submits it for replication and verification and submits it as provisional.

That is not the case with AGW. It's entirely circumstantial and correlative. Even a cursory look at the data will show that temp began its rise shortly before 1850 with no CO2 rise. Indeed, CO2 didn't begin rising much at all until 1880 when human production took off. Temp then declined until 1910 and rose again from 1915 to 1940. Then declined again to 1965, producing those magazine covers warning of the Oncoming Ice Age!

How does one explain the coming and going of the Ice Ages which occurred long before any kind industrialization? The Earth did that all by itself.

Scientifically it is sheer absurdity to think we can control the climate by turning an imaginary CO2 adjustment knob. Many confuse environmental protection with climate protection. It's impossible to control the climate, but we can protect the environment. On the debate concerning alternative energies, which is sensible, it is often driven by the irrational climate debate. One has nothing to do with the other.



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Robert T.
Sat, Feb 3, 2018, 1:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

@ Ubik - The Sun certainly is a key factor on the Earth's factor. Obviously life here would not be possible without it. This is basic science 101. The sun gives off radiation and heat energy affecting the oceans and the land. The sun is constantly having storms and the output of energy from varies which in turns affects our climate. It doesn't matter what we do here. I'm all in favor of keeping the Earth clean. I don't like pollution and we should certainly avoid that as much as we can. But we cannot control the overall climate.

Carbon dioxide is a natural element of the Earth. CO2 is not pollutant. As others have pointed out none of the predictions of the impending doom by climate change alarmists have not panned out. It is largely social justice cause, not really a scientific case.
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Erin Roberts
Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 1:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

I for one was hoping that Lorca was a time traveler from future section 31 or something like there is no way events could line up so perfectly unless you already knew where everyone was going to be at any given time. Also I guess we are supposed to believe it was BS but I feel like Lorca genuinely cared about winning the Klingon war based on Isaacs's performance.
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Roberto Furio
Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 12:37pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Despite Yourself

terrible. This series sometimes seems an involuntary parody. Acting and storytelling are very bad. Proceeds linking situations that seem to be unrelated one to each other. Colors, directing and special effects have the sole purpose of stun the viewer so that he does not see the absolute void of the show. This is not star trek, alternates an acceptable episode and an unwatchable, and this is the unwatchable one. Poor Frakes, poor Star Trek, poor us.
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Other Robert
Sun, Dec 3, 2017, 7:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Into the Forest I Go

Just want to say thanks to all the people who suggested watching The Expanse... it's great! Pretty effortlessly juggles at least half a dozen plots without feeling choppy, spends plenty of time world-building by actually building it into the story, sticks to fairly feasible technology... very immersive, great watch.
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Other Robert
Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 8:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Into the Forest I Go

Lots of things point to Lorca being from MU:

1. He kills the prison shuttle pilot to acquire Burnham. What Starfleet captain does that?

2. Landry, his previous right-hand woman was a total psycho--we all noticed how not-Starfleet she was, though her character couldn't be any better-suited to the MU. So maybe she came across with Lorca.

3. He always fills positions from outside the organization to maintain absolute control--especially security chief.

4. What Starfleet captain doesn't go down with his ship? Probably Lorca Prime went down with his ship and Mirror Lorca stole his identity.

5. MU villains are always trying to steal advanced technology to get the upper hand.

6. Cornwell says his personality has totally changed. He gets rid of her as quickly as possible, delivering her into immense peril.

7. Opportunistic sex (with Cornwell) is a hallmark MU behavior. Speaking of that scene,

8. He keeps a phaser under his pillow.

9. He's not super-stoked to find out they rescued Cornwell. He gets rid of her again asap.

10. His menagerie is full of grotesque dissected corpses, something we saw Mirror Phlox doing. The deadliest weapons collection is much more befitting a MU character.

11. He has no interest whatsoever in science or exploration. The Stamets "I didn't know you cared" line reminds us that he doesn't care, unless the info is of direct interest to him--which of course getting back to the MU would be.

12. He manipulates everyone into doing what he wants--something Mirror leaders do constantly--with no regard for their safety.

13. He is always trying to keep Burnham out of harm's way--very illogically as she points out--and went out of his way to pick her up in the first place... guessing they have some MU history?

14. He likes to keep the lighting... really dark.

15. He already has a tribble.

Seems like a lot of stuff to clear up in one episode. Especially since we also have to do the whole Tyler/Voq thing too.
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Robert Other
Sun, Oct 29, 2017, 10:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Sorry, I missed that there is already a resident Robert--the comment above @9:59 is not from prime universe Robert.
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Robert
Sun, Oct 29, 2017, 9:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

Wow, so this show can definitely work--that's a great sign.

I love that this has a completely different vibe from "Cause and Effect", and a completely different purpose. A Trek plot can be revisited many times so long as the opportunity is taken to explore the concept further.

This ep gave me a reason to warm up to Tyler, and if that trend continues the Tyler/Voq thing (if it happens) will retroactively sabotage his character in good episodes like this. I really hope he is not Voq.

Half a star off for the dark matter gobstoppers--pretty dumb and unnecessary. Seems it would have been more dramatic in both cases if the person had just been phasered. "It's the most painful thing in the universe! Seriously! It's so painful you don't even think to scream! Or curl up! Or wince! Or anything!" This blip momentarily pulled me out of an otherwise absorbing episode.
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Robert
Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 1:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

WTF people? I'm gone for like 5 episodes and you all are calling it DISCO now? I was calling it STD on purpose... :P
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Robert
Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 1:48pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S1: Parallax

@DLPB - "Generally, Robert has gotten a bit of a raw deal with me simply because I am extremely angry and frustrated with how our world works, and he represents, to some extent, the embodiment of the root of many of the causes."

Just wanted to restate a bit of what I said up top. At the end of the day we're both here because both like Star Trek. And that's not all we have in common. We're both coders. We're both enjoy video games. We both like Final Fantasy. We're both the same age. I think some of that stuff is more important.

I actually gave you a hard time earlier on this particular thread not because I dislike you, but the opposite. There are some epic level trolls on these boards sometimes, and most of them I don't even care enough to respond to. I guess what I mean is... you can't be aggravated by something you don't care about. I was happy hearing from you after the attack in your hometown.

And although we often disagree on many, many things I still appreciate hearing from someone who views the world differently than I do. IDIC is a good thing. Even when you occasionally want to shake the other person :)
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Robert
Wed, Oct 11, 2017, 1:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry

@Mal/Peter - I never really thought about it before, but I think you are 100% right. I've always wondered why I liked early VOY better than later VOY when early VOY really wasn't nearly as good. Late VOY clearly had some amazing sci-fi episodes. It's because the characters stopped wanting stuff.

Janeway wanted to make her makeshift crew work together, both sides. Wanting to bring Torres into the fold was the first indication of that. And she wanted coffee. And it was in that nebula. LOL. (I'm joking but only sort of). And Chakotay wanted Janeway (and GOD that didn't pay off).

In the earlier seasons Paris wanted redemption, a home/family, a second chance and Torres. And she felt like she wanted a second chance and a place she belonged too.

In the earlier seasons Kim wanted to get home, more than any of them, in a way that was defining.

Neelix wanted a family, somewhere to belong. He lost his (FWIW I actually think HIS arc is pretty satisfying. He does find a place to belong on VOY and find a family that's important to him. And in the end he finds a different kind of family. And he gets one episode per season that lends good insight to all of this).

Kes wanted to explore, both herself and the universe. I missed her.

The doctor started off wanting nothing and ended up wanting everything (he also ended up well off).

They really had good, strong characters, but they let them all spoil. It was a shame. And that's probably why I like early VOY better even though it was worse. They hadn't spoiled yet.
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Robert
Wed, Oct 11, 2017, 9:52am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry

I will admit, that even when DS9 S1 was using recycled TNG garbage (often poorly) that it was still world building in a big way that'd pay off later.

The thing is, at the time I felt VOY was doing the same thing. It felt like it was building a world too. The fact that they didn't capitalize on in is the fault of later seasons though.

And ENT was building a world but it wasn't really building it's characters, which was a big problem.

A good example of a bad episode of DS9 that still worked in a million little ways is "A Man Alone". The episode itself pretty much sucks. Odo isn't Odo, the Bajorans are too quick to make a lynch mob (which isn't really very Bajoran-like) and the murder plot is uninspired at best. Dax isn't Dax. Steamed azna? Really? Raktajino chugging Dax wouldn't touch that crap (although I like the rest of that conversation). That said, Keiko opens a school, Nog and Jake start up their friendship, Sisko is racist against Nog, Kira is fiercly loyal to Odo... the plot is seriously bad but the episode turns a million little cogs that pay off later.
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Robert
Wed, Oct 11, 2017, 9:14am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry

@Reign1701A - I agree with you about ENT, the first time it was on I stopped watching, not because any single hour was unworthy of my time, but just because Star Trek lost it's status as "appointment TV". I just wasn't dying for more every week. So I missed an episode here and there and by the middle of S2 I just found that I wasn't watching it.

But that said... there is a case to be made for it having the most solid first season of all the modern Trek shows anyway. TNG's first season was awful. And it's held up to modern scrutiny not at all. If we had 7 seasons of that I wouldn't even be a fan of the show.

Jammer rates only 7 of the episodes at 3+ and if I'm being really honest that's incredibly generous. He gives Hide and Q 3 stars (the same as he gave True Q, which was better) and he only gave Cupid 1 star, which was far more entertaining. Even something like Datalore (also 3 stars) really sucked. It's only good for Lore/Crystaline Entity origins... but the episode itself is awful. Wesley and the viewer solve the puzzle what feels like hours before the "brilliant crew". I'd give "Coming of Age", "11001001" and "Heart of Glory" all 3 stars and everything else less.

DS9 is easily the most mixed bag. It ends ridiculously strong. "Duet" and "In the Hands of the Prophets" are 2 of my favorite episodes of the series, both high 4 stars for me and would both be contenders for a top 10 list (and definitely end up on a top 20 list). And the pilot is really strong. But that said.... almost every character needed to be reinvented after this season in order for the show to be truly great (Odo in "Man Alone" bears little resemblance to later Odo, Rom might as well be a different character, they haven't found Sisko yet and Dax is totally rebooted in S2), and they had a lot of middling garbage that felt like TNG castoff episodes. Still Jammer gives 10 episodes 3+ and I only disagree with 2 of them ("The Storyteller" and "Dax" aren't really 3 stars for me) and I'd add "Babel". So I give 9/19 and Jammer would give 10/19. So let's say roughly half are good.

VOY is also significantly better. "Caretaker" was solid enough, "Phage" was interesting (and the first time it felt like VOY was truly paying off it's premise of giving us something altogether NOT Alpha Quadrant), "Eye of the Needle" was decent, "Prime Factors" and "State of Flux" were both excellent, and "Faces" and "Jetrel" were at least 3 also. So that's 7/15. And I MIGHT give "Emanations" a 3 also, I liked it better than Jammer. So about half. Same as DS9. Though I'm a bit torn because as VOY changed also after S1/S2 I felt like it changed mostly for the worse. But the first season was solid enough. And probably with less total clunkers than DS9. Current ranking for S1s VOY > DS9 > TNG.

Which brings us to ENT. Jammer gave 12/25 episodes 3+ stars. I actually don't disagree with any of those and I'd give 1 more episode 3 stars that he didn't (I personally feel his 2 stars for "Shadows of P'Jem" is way too low). I feel like in a lot of ways the problem with ENT is that I never fell in love with the cast. Even on days when I hated VOY I loved the characters. But there is a case to be made for ENT having the strongest first season... and I think I sort of made it. TNG's first season sucked, DS9's first season was largely only mediocre until the final 2 episodes elevated it (a lot IMHO), VOY's first season was solid and ENT's first season might have even been a drop better than that.
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Robert
Mon, Oct 9, 2017, 8:12am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S6: Tapestry

@Michb -

"Is it so bad to not be the risk-taker, the captain? Surely, that's better than being dead?"

It wasn't really about that in a vacuum. Picard is an older guy. What it was saying is that he'd rather die the man he was than live as the guy Q changed him into.

It's not about "not being the best" equals failure. The point of the episode is that the man Picard was, our captain, wouldn't have been happy with the life lived by this other Picard.

"That being a d#ck will eventually lead to success, so just go ahead, who cares about behaving decently? "

I actually think that was the opposite of the message. He learned something about how short life was (which lead him to be bolder and more of a risk taker) BUT he also learned to be more decent, more careful, less of an ass and less reckless. In "Samaritan Snare" Picard tells Wesley.

WESLEY: Really? Then what happened?
PICARD: Nothing. I was no hero, Wesley. I was an undisciplined, loud-mouthed, opinionated young man who was way out of his league. I learned a very hard, very painful lesson that day, but I learned it well. I hope you never have to learn it the same way. Care for another sandwich?

He learned to take risks not because this one "paid off" in some way, but because he learned how short life is. It's like cancer survivors who turn over a new leaf. His life was improved by getting a glimpse of his mortality, not by being an ass in a bar fight.

The message is not "go get into bar fights and your life will work out". It's "if you like your life don't fret your mistakes so much, they lead you here as much as your successes, if not more".
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Robert
Thu, Oct 5, 2017, 7:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang

"I think it's fair to ask whether that's anachronistic, especially in light of Uhura not even realizing why having her colored referenced could be insulting. But even if it's anachronistic, I think it's still on point. "

100,000% this, couldn't say it better. It's anachronistic for the time period. But if Brooks wants to say it for the benefit of our time he's probably earned his soapbox.
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Robert
Thu, Oct 5, 2017, 1:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang

I agree with you about Brooks. And I don't begrudge him his line. But I still can say I don't think Ben would have said that without being racist, which is kind of the whole point.

I never started ANY of these conversations. I chimed in, but didn't start them. The first one I responded to said

"I think it's incredible that so many commenters, who I'm sure are white, have a problem with Sisko's questioning of the airbrushing of history going on in Vic's holodeck program. "

And my response is that I kind of thought the line was odd too. Not because it was "out of left field" or "didn't belong in a fun heist episode" but just because I genuinely don't think Ben would have said that.

And if someone actually reads through the posts they'd see a lot of reasons why people feel that way. I'll copy the version of my answer that I like the best

"So his problem is that him and Kas don't belong in there. And pretending they do is somehow insulting to the people who lived through a tough time. It's true they don't belong there.... but I don't see how it's insulting. As I said... can the girls never join the boys for the Battle of Britain? Or the Alamo? Should Troi not have been allowed to be a deputy in the old west? Isn't that insulting to women for her to pretend that such a thing would have been ok? Or Troi and Crusher serving on that 18th century boat in Generations?

The reason it's odd is because nobody has ever before remarked about how the holodecks are unrealistic in their lack of oppression. "

That's all. I think it's weird because it's a video game and it seems strange to me to want your bar holodeck program to be perfectly historically accurate instead of fun.

But then I'm a dood that wants electricity when I go camping. And flushing toilets at the Renn Faire. Sherlock Holmes couldn't have had a black Watson. But Geordi didn't care. And Chrome earlier talked about baseball and the problems with Sisko and baseball and race.

But if Avery wanted to say it that's totally cool. It's also totally cool to believe that Ben wouldn't have. On the other hand I also thought it was stupid that Tom Paris wanted to watch a small black and white TV. The characters were a little too obsessed with our time and our issues. What, nothing cool happened in 2200s?
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Robert
Thu, Oct 5, 2017, 8:08am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang

@John Harmon

Did you actually read the comments? Go ahead, tell me which ones are racist, please. Because on the whole this issue is a Star Trek one, not a race issue. Do I have a "problem" with the line? No, he spent some time as Benny and likely has a chip on his shoulder over it. But do I think Ben Sisko would have said this? No. It felt like words that the writers put in his mouth. I genuinely don't think Sisko would have a problem playing a historically inaccurate video game with his friends. The same way that Troi didn't have a problem playing one with Worf. Apparently I've talked this issue to death, but damn, the next time you complain about comments could you actually, you know, pick something somebody said and attempt to refute it?
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Robert
Wed, Oct 4, 2017, 6:50am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: Context Is for Kings

"Though, with baseball, it seems more Sisko (baseball) specific, yet they play a whole game with Vulcans(!) in the holosuites. "

That's still Sisko specific though. The Vulcan captain has a strange grudge against Sisko and aims to train his crew to beat him at his own game. I doubt baseball is going to start catching on with Vulcans.
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