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Sarjenka's Brother
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 7:40pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: State of Flux

Very good episode for all the reasons Jammer and other fans of the episode have well-stated.

Martha Hackett is wonderful. This episode shows what "Voyager" could have been if the writers/producers had been allowed to take the show in more of a stronger story arc direction.

Two more random things: I think "Voyager" has the best theme music and intro. It's also the most visually appealing of all Treks to me.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 2:32pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

@William B

I said TREK series. ;-)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:13pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

@Abby
"Season 7 of Enterprise?"

Well, Enterprise is the only post-TOS Trek series with zero negative reviews for its 7th season. ;-)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:10pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

@Jamie Mann
"It is mildly worrying, how easy it is to get sucked into writing about this stuff ;) "

Neah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The problem begins when the person cares more about alleviating his boredom then about making sense or having an honest discussion. When things reach *that* level, I begin to worry.
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Chrome
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 11:14am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Prophecy

I believe DS9 was a lead in to TNG as part of the syndication deal, so there’s an argument that can be made that VOY was at a disadvantage by itself on UPN. Of course, TNG/DS9 only lasted 1.5 seasons together and I believe Paramount spent a small fortune promoting Voyager as the flagship show to its new network, so that might be a wash.

Not surprised VOY ranked better than TOS on a poll in 2013, though. I don’t think TOS gets enough love by newer fans.
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Jason R.
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 8:47am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

"Well, it is certainly closer to an (ideal) communist society than a capitalistic one. The state provides every basic need(food, health care, living space, free education) and also controls the means of production, no money, most people work for the state.
Sounds pretty communistic to me."

Well except there's no evidence that anyone works for the state except maybe in Starfleet and in a few other instances.

Incidentally, I agree with Omicron that a true post-scarcity society renders ideologies like communism and capitalism obsolete. If a replicator can manufacture anything from food to tools and machines (including other replicators!) the state can't (and doesn't) control the means of production - pretty much everyone does.

Not suggesting that individuals are making everything themselves but then again, we have to infer from some episodes that money isn't completely gone either.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 7:13am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

I see that Booming is bored and frustrated again.

Jeez...
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P'kard
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 11:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: The Neutral Zone

As someone born in the early 1990s I did not find the frozen people relatable at all. They just seemed greedy and self centered
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Patrick
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 8:06pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Nightingale

Did anyone notice Seven was sleeping in a bed before Harry came in and woke her up? That was weird; it must have been one of those Borg regeneration mattresses.
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Patrick
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:55pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S7: Body and Soul

I love this episode because of Jeri Ryan’s portrayal of the Doctor. She was hilarious, enjoying those prison rations!
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Brad
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S3: Basics, Part II

An excellent analysis as always, Elliot! Glad to see you're back.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 5:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

"Am I remembering wrong, or did Odo not link with Older Odo before the end of the episode?"

ODO: There's something you should know. The other Odo, the one from the planet, came to Sickbay before he left the ship.
ODO: There's something else the other Odo wanted you to know. He was responsible for changing the Defiant's flight plan.

It sounds like Oldo linked after he did the deed. Prime Odo couldn't keep form because of the planet's technobabble, so he couldn't do anything to fix it, either. So Odo's hands are basically clean (assuming one thinks Oldo did anything wrong to begin with).
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Peter G.
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 5:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

Am I remembering wrong, or did Odo not link with Older Odo before the end of the episode? If so, the decision would have to have been at least partially joint. But I actually do think there's a such thing as not being mature enough to make a decision, that, if you get it wrong, you'll regret for the rest of your life. There are decisions in life where "you won't know" how it will go, and maybe there are others which, pick wrong, and you'll never be able to take that back. In the case of who will have families with whom it might be hard to say which way is better. Or at least it might have tempting to think about the colony. But in Odo's case he had 200 years to think about it, which I think is really not taken seriously enough. She meant that much to him. I'm not sure I agree that him making the choice for her (and for his other self) is antagonistic towards her wishes. It's not exactly as if her life's goal was to die for some random colonist. But her heartstrings were pulled and she gave in to it, which is one of the things he loves about her, but also a good reason to provide her with a kick when she needs to get back to her chosen mission. Maybe that's a contentious assertion and I don't have that much time now, but I'm pretty sure I'm onto something with that.

@ Fenn,

"I feel the majority of the episode *is* dedicated to having both the characters and audience see these people as living beings with a right to persist."

The thing is, I don't really see any point made in the episode about their rights. I don't in fact think they have any right at all to expect anyone to die so they can live. Rather I think a lot of time is taken to help us connect with them, to give a clear vision of who they are and what *wouldn't happen* if a different course is chosen. It's that vivid connection to what *could be* that makes life's choices so difficult. But we let ourselves off easy by not thinking about the consequences of what we *don't do*. Funny that, since we don't do a great deal more things than we do. It's worth thinking about, at the very least, even if what we have chosen to do really is right for us.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 4:16pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

Yeah, Fenn, I think by letting Oldo be the one making the decision and not prime timeline Odo, the writers let Odo off the hook. I can see Kira still having some apprehension that current Odo might become someone who wouldn't listen to her wishes, but by the same token current Odo hasn't done anything like that. And for what it's worth, it seems likely given the change in circumstances prime Odo will turn out completely different.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 2:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S7: Seventh Season Recap

The 24th century Federation is a post-scarcity society. It isn't "socialist" any more than it is "capitalist". It's a society when both "-isms" are equally obsolete.

And I've never understood why some people insist on equating messages of cooperation and compassion and tolerance with a certain political view. These core values should be beyond the petty bickering of politicians.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 1:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

“It's a tremendously selfish action all round -- placing his own desires above that of both the 8000 and of Kira.”

What gives those 8000 the right to live any more than the 8000+ (including Sisko and Cassidy’s son) who will be created over 200 years when the Defiant returns to DS9? I know Odo’s motivations are different, but perhaps the fact that he was so unhappy there shows chinks the armor of ostensible utopian paradise. It’s “The Matter of Time” Rasmussen situation all over again except this time there’s no Picard around to be the voice of reason. Just because they know how our future *might* turn out doesn’t mean they should resign themselves to fate.
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Chrome
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

I agree with Peter that there’s no real murder here; it’s more of a “Parallels” type of situation where reality can spin out one path or the other, but no one in the crew can really take some sort of moral high ground and say “this path is best” because — honestly, no one knows. Even the original mirror plan to cause a “Thomas Riker Effect” on the Defiant crew would be dooming those alternate DS9ers to live a life without their family stuck on a planet.

I like the idea of remembering would could be and focusing on how important our choices are. In a sense, Dax really did get the scientific adventure she wanted on the planet but it turned out to be more personally involved than she expected.
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Peter G.
Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 12:06pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S5: Children of Time

@ Fenn,

Yeah, I agree the lack of spotten Klingons may be a production oversight. They certainly did not imply they split up.

A lot of people have gone on about Odo as a murderer, or how Kira should be horrified, and so forth. But I think part of this is that after the episode is over they really could think of it as "they never really existed". Sure, it's a sci-fi thing, but in the real world these events exist in some small time loop but otherwise no one died. They have the memories, and I think that is the important take-away: like Picard in The Inner Light, they had a taste of life other than in service to Starfleet, and it was a pretty good one. It's the simple living they all could have had, in an alternate set of choices and circumstances, and one that's no less important or relevant that serving on a super-important space station. And yes, I think the episode is about highlighting how we shouldn't forget about the incredible importantance of little things when thinking about grand wars and intergalactic politics. It shouldn't be just numbers on a screen; planting seeds matters too, and so does having a community. This is the 'real deal' version of what they kept trying to shove at us with the Maquis and maybe with Paradise. Losing all of those descendents isn't murder; it's what actually happens to every person in real life if they're being honest about the life choice to value career over family. You *do* lose something, but that choice may still be the right one. And yes, there are thousands of descendants each person will never have if they choose not to have kids, or to have fewer kids, or whatever. That doesn't mean their choice is wrong, but it *is* a choice with consequences. If you really thought it through it would be no different from this episode.

So regarding Kira and Odo, I really don't think that deaths being on her conscience is relevant to their relationship. It's not really relevant in terms of the sci-fi trope, and it's not relevant because from what we see of 'Oldo's character, he's no murderer, but what he is is a lover, and that is very different. Where he's changed, and maybe why he's not afraid anymore to show his real face (and yes, I think his inability is based in fear) is because he's not afraid to admit he has vulnerable emotions any more. Actually he's relishing the chance to show them to Kira, so this is about as big a character change for him as you can get. He *wants* to be seen as in pain and willing to sacrifice anything for her. So what Kira gets out of this is knowing that the guy who's too ashamed to even smile in public would do absolutely anything for her. So yeah, that is a pretty good trait to have in a romantic partner :)
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Sarjenka's Brother
Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 10:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: Prime Factors

Very good outing on all fronts. For those of us who feel like "Voyager" didn't live up to what it should have been, it's because of episodes such as "Prime Factors," which did live up to the promise. We just wanted more than we got.

So far into Season 1, I rate the following as "good or better":

Caretaker / Phage / Eye of the Needle /Prime Factors. That's out of nine episodes. That was certainly more than Next Gen at this point.
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Sarjenka's Brother
Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:27pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: Parallax

Way, way, way, way too soon for an anomaly episode.

This should have been an aftermath episode with much, much more Star Fleet / Marquis conflict ... OR ... another visit from the Kazon (or both). I didn't love them, but they were the first villains they came up with. We probably should have gotten another visit.
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Sarjenka's Brother
Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: Time and Again

This should have been a Star Fleet / Marquis conflict episode, not some time anomaly filler.
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Sarjenka's Brother
Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: The Cloud

The character-building moments were pretty good. The cloud plot was tired.

My question: What would have been wrong with an hour of character building, with maybe a short encounter with a Kazon ship or something?
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Sarjenka's Brother
Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: Eye of the Needle

I really enjoyed this episode -- granted, it starts to fall apart if you think about it too hard. So I just don't, and I like it!

I liked the Romulan and I liked the twist that he was 20 years in their past. I also liked that they restrained themselves from making every episode about getting home or getting home faster, but you needed a few those along.

This was a good way to do it.
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Chrome
Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 2:57pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S5: Ethics

Excellent comment, Halia.
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Sarjenka's Brother
Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 2:44pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S1: Emanations

An A- on concept and effort. C+ on execution. I liked that they tackled the subject, and more on that below.

Regarding warp speed:

"Trek" just can't nail down how fast/far warp speed will take you. But ignoring all the wildly varying calculations from the previous series, "Voyager" should have nailed it down at premise. After all, the entire idea of the series is you're 70,000 light years from the Federation, and it will take about 75 years to get back.

So without shortcuts, you're looking at journey where you clock about 933 light years per Earth year.

So yeah, it was really stupid that they covered half a light year so quickly in this episodes. All Janeway had to do was say get us a safe distance away.

+++

I also read up above about how this was kind of early in the series to do an episode like this, and I agree.

I don't know why they didn't do a lot more "Delta Quadrant building" and "Star Fleet / Marquis" integration episodes out the chute.

They went to great pains in the pilot to build off the Marquis storylines from Next Gen and DS9, which I think was a good idea. Then they established decent backgrounds on the core characters and how/why each person fell on the Star Fleet / Marquis continuum.

And then in Episode 2, it was already getting wrapped up. Most tension was already being resolved. The overriding concept of Season 1 should have been a messy integration.

Episodes 2 and 3 should have been nothing but Star Fleet / Marquis storylines. Episode 2 could have been a Chakotay-test episode with a Marquis member attempting a real mutiny. Episode 3 could have been set on a dangerous planet where a landing party of Star Fleet and Marquis had to band together to fight for survival.

As for Delta Quadrant building:

In the pilot, we're introduced to the Kazon (where we learn they constitute numerous warring parties). We also get a Talaxian and an Ocompan. And then a few episodes in, Videeans (I actually liked them a lot).

I think that was plenty to work with for most of Season 1 without throwing in a whole bunch of random one-off species. We have two new species for villains. Potentially new allies in the Talaxians. And well, nice to meet the Ocampans, but they seem to be isolated to one city on one planet.

And I can buy the Kazon factions as viable threats to Voyager, even with their inferior technology, because Voyager has been crippled by the Caretaker. Just don't let her get repaired so fast, and the Kazon make for real trouble.

And the Videeans were a fantastic concept. We should have seen more from them.

I think each season should have had an overarching species (or two) that proved to be the main menace for that season. Given Voyager is trying to do straight shot home vs. roaming around in circles exploring and attending to diplomatic missions, etc., that would be have made a lot sense.

They pass through the space of _______ (the Trabe, the Hirogen, etc.). Things go poorly. They have some encounters. We learn about this species. Voyager then leaves ______ space and then enters ______ space, maybe after a couple of one-off episodes.

Instead, we got all these spacial rifts and time paradoxes and think pieces at first when they really should have been mining the Marquis and the outer rim Delta Quadrant species at first for most of the episodes (and looking harder for Lady Caretaker).

All that said, I think "Voyager" is better than many fans give it credit for. Especially in hindsight when we seen what came afterward.
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