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Quincy
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 1:55am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Also, I lol when someone (forget who and I'm not scrolling this Great Wall of Text to find out) claimed that the people who don't like Picard never claimed it wasn't Star Trek. What's the purpose of the term NuTrek? Use the search function at the top of the page and search for "NuTrek" or for "Picard" and "not Star Trek"/"isn't Star Trek" and see how many people are making this claim. In fact, we have two people on this very page, who have expressed exactly that point of view. Use your browser "Find" function to take you right to it. So the notion that detractors aren't saying this is quite simply an erroneous claim.
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Quincy
Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 1:21am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Glom

Soji was on the Artifact to gain intel on the Admonition. Watch episode 3, especially the conversation with the nut job Zhat Vash Borg reclaimees.

@Sen-Sors

Interesting. I don't recall Sisko being all that troubled about poisoning the atmosphere of that Maquis colony in retaliation for Eddington's terrorist attacks, in order to force his surrender. Been awhile though. Maybe I just forgot.

Pretty sure any competent attorney could get Jurati off. Not only was she under the influence of the Admonition, which all by its lonesome took out a Borg cube and generally drives people bat$# insane. She was also under the influence of Oh's mind meld. Mind melds all by their lonesome are harsh mistresses. Oh gave her not only the Admonition, but her fanatical mindset regarding the Admonition. Who knows? Season 2 episode 1 might open with the great great great great grandson of Samuel T. Cogley getting her off with probation.

I'm tempted to go check how many of the people complaining about a still unresolved plot point in Picard, most likely dropped due to time constraints, also complained about The Orville's casual murder of a number of prison guards, during a botched prison break, which was never even mentioned afterwards in the episode, “All the World is Birthday Cake.”
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Squiggy
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 1:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Would Picard really have wanted this? I remember an episode of TNG where he lectured someone for cheating death and now he's gone and done the same thing. They should have saved his dying for the end of the series instead of this pointless reset button of making him an android when it doesn't really change anything apparently other than he's no longer dying. The whole illness thing could have been completely left out altogether since it wouldn't really have changed the story much at all.

What is it with CBS and the stupid "Last time on" flashbacks for their shows? They aren't even flashbacks from the last episode but random snippets from the entire season. It's so annoying to have to skip past them every time I watch a new episode.
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Quincy
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 9:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tommy D. @Ryan

Hear! Hear!
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Quincy
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:13am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Not really all that up on military structure, but couldn't they have made Sisko a Commodore? Don't commodores run fleets? And it doesn't seem all that strange to me for a Commodore to man a station that's the main access point to and from Dominion space.
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Quincy
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 11:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Mark

That's not quite what happened. It's not like they left to go home. Riker told the Romulans to leave Federation territory and that the fleet would escort them out. Commodore Oh said that wouldn't be necessary. Riker then says it would be no trouble at all, indicating that the fleet will indeed escort them out of Federation space. The Romulans leave. Riker says farewell to Picard and the fleet leaves to immediately to make sure the Romulans leave their space. Yes, I do think they should've left some ships behind, but considering the situation it could've been considered a hostile act. Not really a satisfying conclusion to the season, but whatever.
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Quincy
Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 5:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Dahj's Synthetic Ghost

The Admonition builders were an intergalactic alliance of synths. They destroyed the people on that planet Aia where the Admonition relic was placed. It was placed there by the ancient synths as a message to artificial lifeforms, telling them how to contact the ancient synths for protection against organic lifeforms. The eightfold star system was constructed by those ancient synths as an easily visible landmark that would draw attention to that spot for the purposes of viewing the Admonition.
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Quincy
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 5:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Tommy D.

Agreed. That was always a sore point with me after "Q Who." I finally decided that perhaps the outposts and any personnel that were assimilated were not representative of Starfleet's full capabilities and when the Enterprise showed up it ratcheted up the Borg's level of interest in the Federation. However, that's just headcanon. It's possible it's just a plot hole. I do recall reading that they were planning to introduce the Borg very early on so I really don't see how they could make that mistake. Go figure.
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Quincy
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 10:51am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Tommy D.

Picard pissing off Q in "Q Who" was the best thing that ever happened to the Federation and the Alpha Quadrant. It made Q make them aware that a pack of rabid wolves were circling around their camp. The final episode of the first season of TNG, "The Neutral Zone," indicates that the Borg were already nibbling Romulan and Federation outposts at the edge of the Neutral Zone. This means that they had already assimilated Federation and Romulan citizens before "Q Who." This means that they already knew about both Romulus and Earth. This means that they were already on their way. They were just taking their sweet time.

The truth is the Borg could've come waltzing in at anytime after "The Neutral Zone." If the Federation never learns about the Borg, they're caught totally flatfooted without even an ice cube's chance in a supernova of responding to the threat they represent. Even with the "Q Who" warning they barely escaped by the skin of their teeth, precisely because the fleet's flagship had the necessary experience that Q gave them. They absolutely needed that wake up call from Q to shock them out of their pacifying complacency.
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Quincy
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 11:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I don't recall when it was given its name; it may have been episode 8 when the Admonition relic is actually shown for the first time on Aia, the "Grief World" in the 8 sun, star system. However, that's irrelevant. The first time we see those jumbled Admonition images is episode 7. Jurati is visited by Oh in the third episode and Jurati immediately joins Picard's rag tag team. People were IMMEDIATELY speculating that Jurati fell victim to an evil mind meld of some sort that made her do a 180. THAT'S where it begins, not a moment later.

The Admonition is indirectly referenced in this episode, when we find out that the playing with a half deck reclaimed Borgs were on the last ship ever assimilated by the Artifact, "when something went wrong." We find out in later episodes that this is what drove the entire Borg cube crazy, but the seeds are sown in episode 3. Two episodes later Jurati murders Maddox and confesses that "I wish you knew what I know. I wish I didn't know what I know. I wish they hadn't shown me." She's talking about the Admonition. Whether it has a name yet or not is completely irrelevant. We know at this time that whatever she knows that caused her to do this murderous 180 was delivered to her by an evil mind meld.

The Admonition by hook or by crook absorbs the entire 2nd half of the season. The Admonition is one of the main McGuffins in the story. It's the reason the Romulans are murdering people. It's the reason they sabotaged their own evacuation. It's the reason the androids sent Soji to the Artifact. It's the reason there was such a thing as the Artifact. It's now the central focus of the climax of the story. And it all ended up in Jurati's skull. I could easily claim that makes Jurati's shell shocked brain the central driver of 2/3rds the story.
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Q
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 8:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Reunion

Just having some fun here...

You know...out of all of the main characters only two have children who are recurring characters - Crusher and Worf.

Crusher's child (the white child) is a genius, receives a field commission, is admitted to Starfleet Academy, and eventually gains what are basically demigod powers.

Conversely, Worf's child (the black child) has behavioral issues, steals, is eventually dumped by his father on his grandparents, and later attempts to commit retroactive suicide.

Do some things not change even after 300 years?
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Quincy
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 7:47pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Jason R.

I didn't say it was trivial, but it's not THE central McGuffin like you're making it out to be. Picard isn't on a quest to find out Soji's past. He's on a quest to find Soji and save her from getting murdered. Meanwhile, Soji's memory is 1) the last piece of the puzzle pointing the way to the android sanctuary and 2) her own personal identity crises.

By your logic, I could just as easily claim the Admonition slice in Jurati's head is the central plot, because it stretches for seven episodes, presents a powerful foil for the heroes (Maddox, Narek), and culminates in delivering to the androids the means to end all biological life in the galaxy or at least the alpha quadrant. In other words, it accelerates us directly into the season climax.
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Quincy
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 2:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I too wish they would explain more and focus on the science more, but they appear to be going the BSG route of not explaining that stuff. To be fair, all old Trek gave us was technobabble mumbo jumbo, which really didn't explain anything either.

If Soji's amnesia was thrust front and center as the central mystery of the show, like the Zalkonian John Doe in the TNG episode, "Transfigurations," I might agree with you. (And how much effort did it take for John Doe to remember? As I recall he'd have a seizure and gain new memories each time, and that's not really earning anything) However, that was never the case.

The central mystery was why were the Romulans killing her people. And why this big conspiracy going all the way to the top of the Federation. The length of PIC seasons are less than half the length of TNG seasons. I don't know how people expect PIC to delve into all the things they seem to want delved into in that length of time.
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Quincy
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 11:02am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

This question of what Soji actually is has come up a few times. IMO she's a biological robot or "xenobot." Scientists are working on the precursors to that right now: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/algorithm-designs-robots-using-frog-cells-66961

We know that Soong type robots could fool scanners and tricorders long ago, when they were all hardware, so it's completely irrelevant that Soji is indistinguishable from humans. She doesn't have to have any of the structure that a human being has, just as Doctor Juliana Tainer didn't have to have human structure to fool Starfleet scanners. That's par for the course.

What sets Soji apart is that she's probably completely made up of human cells. However, those cells are repurposed and retrofitted to function like a robot, similar to those frog cells in the article I posted. Those are frog cells. You could even shape the finished product into something that looked and sounded exactly like a frog, but it'd be a robot just the same.

She has human cells. She has the human form. But she's not human. Her body functions at a much higher level than a human. She can smash and rip through bulkheads. She can move at superhuman speeds with superhuman agility. She has perfect memory. She can hack and interface with electronic systems. This is because her human cells don't function like human cells. They function instead like the robotic cells that they were redesigned to be.

At least, that's my headcanon.
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Peter G.

I think you're selling the writers short, but I'm not going to belabor the point. The last thing I'm going to say on the issue is what type of technology is the Admonition relic supposed to be? IMO it's very obviously artificial telepathy. If that's not intentional I don't know what is.
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Correction it was later in the episode.
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Chrome

That doesn't really support the conclusion since they'd already established earlier in the episode that androids had the ability to monitor a person's biofunctions and determine deception in that manner, prior to the Narek prison break scene.
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:09pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

If "telepathy circuitry" is nothing but headcanon, what was Lore doing to Data in "Descent" and why could Councelor Troi sense it?

In any case, to each his own.
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

@ Captain Jon
" I would also think that most holos wouldn’t be considered a threat like androids because unless they have a mobile emitter they are less....well, mobile. And also it seems most can simply just be deactivated."

Tell that to those hostile holograms that were created by the Hirogen in the Voyager episode, "Flesh and Blood."
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:32pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Peter G.

But there is no whoopsie. You seem to be stuck on the word "learning" as if he described a process where she practiced throwing her thoughts up against someone's skull, until it stuck. No such process was described. We don't know what this "learning" entailed.

I just gave numerous examples of TNG demonstrating that androids can spontaneously start broadcasting emotions to Counselor Troi with no change in physical hardware. How is this possible? Shouldn't they lack the wetware to broadcast emotions? Unless... no such wetware is required. And a mere software change in a sapient machine does the trick.

Data is a learning computer. For Data and his progeny "learning" is most likely synonymous with upgrading or updating their software and/or hardware. (This is especially so for the biological models.) I don't see how this is a problem.
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:32am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Maybe it's my mistake, but I thought the twin thing only referred to flesh and blood style synthetics. Can someone clear this up?
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Quincy
Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:27am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

I'm glad someone else at least remembered Spock's mind meld with Nomad in TOS. It makes sense that if an alien race can upgrade a basic computer to have sapience that Spock can mind meld with then a synthetic life-form could upgrade itself to perform a mind meld. When I see these strange complaints about something that logically follows from the original series, I feel many people either never watched the original series or don't recall enough of it and therefore aren't making legitimate complaints. I believe these are the type of complaints that Alan Roi used to always rage about that indicate some people either aren't paying attention or have gaps in their memory that they refuse to acknowledge.

This also raises questions about Deanna Troi's empathic abilities in light of the prior episode with Deanna and Soji. A full-fledged Betazoid, in fact the most powerful known Betazoid, Tam Elbrun, couldn't sense thoughts from Data. However, a Vulcan can mind meld with a robot and a synth can initiate a mind meld with a human. But that might also be a plot hole. I recall that Deanna sensed Data once he was tampered with by Lore. Also in "The Schizoid Man," when Ira Graves booty jacks Data's body, Troi remarks on the "intense, burning jealousy" emanating from Data.

Unlike with Soji, Troi remains blissfully unaware of the fact that Dr. Juliana Tainer is an android. Anybody who's ever played an instrument at a high level can testify to the joy you feel when playing. During the concert she should've noticed that both her and Data weren't emanating emotions. This can only mean she senses emotions from her, at least that's my interpretation. Also, Voyager's "Lifeline" has Troi exhibiting difficulties distinguishing between Zimmerman and the Doctor, indicating to me that the Doctor broadcasts emotions like humans. There's also a possible instance where Deanna was aware of Data's daughter, Lal, being scared, but it's not clear if she was simply reading her expressions and body language or otherwise. Not sure what to make of it. However, even if it's a plot hole, it's TNG's plot hole, not PIC's.

Another thing of note is a bit of a tangent. While rewatching TNG's "Descent," we see Admiral Alynna Nechayev ORDER Picard to commit genocide against the Borg if he ever encounters another opportunity like he had when they met Hugh. Her righteous indignation during this scene is palpable. More evidence that the Federation in TNG isn't what many people remember.
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Quincy
Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 3:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@William D Wehrs
"We see on the planet plenty of vegetation and the characters seem to walk around with squinting. How the heck could that be possible when the planet is flanked by eight suns!!!"

Pretty sure that's not the same planet. The 8 sun system was the classified system in Romulan territory where the Admonition ceremony was administered to the Zhat Vash inductees. That system was created by the alien synthetic alliance that left the Admonition artifact. Clearly, that's not going to be the same planet as the Federation Synths are inhabiting. The Romulans already know where that planet is. How would they fail to notice Synths on their planet in their territory? Why would they need to Eye Spy Soji in order to learn its already known location?
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Quinalla
Mon, Mar 9, 2020, 8:40am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Nepenthe

Not a perfect episode by any stretch, but very enjoyable. I was sad that Hugh died and kind of disappointed that the writers are just throwing characters in the trash with little care. I would have preferred they find a way to keep him alive as I liked so much that he was there to try and rehabilitate and protect the ex Borg.

I loved having Troi & Riker, two people that can believably call out Picard, both calling him out in their own ways. And the genuine affection the actors/actress have for each is lovely to see.

I too thought the casting of their daughter was great, loved that actress!
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Quincy
Sun, Mar 1, 2020, 3:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: The Impossible Box

@Andy's Friend

How should I even respond to something this condescending and pretentious? I'm at a loss for words... polite ones anyway. Normally what I would do is see or raise your condescension with a liberal dosage of my own wicked flavor. In the past, this has resulted in legions of pre-approved sympathizers admonishing me and policing my tone, while they skateboard Tony Hawk like, seemingly blind, deaf, numb, and dumb with sinus problems, right past the tone of the person I was replying to. I'm not going to do that today. We've already gone far off into the wilderness of tangents with this discussion. And I'm not willing to follow you there and maintain any sense of civility in the face of such outright condescension.

I will say only this. it is you who are conflating a number of separate issues. I'm not saying that an author should construct an entire story such that that story could only play out in one way. That would be asinine in the extreme. My original post before World War Tangent began was a narrowly depicted comparison between how the end of this Picard episode played out and how we all saw "Vengeance" play out and the disparate reactions of two camps of viewers. You chose to take us off the reservation into a Siberian remote tangential conclusion rife with Tunguska event level assumptions about my supposed lack of understanding of classical literature. Rather than dismissing your concerns as tangential to the discussion, I chose to address it in good faith. However, what I was discussing was a very narrow situation where the events take us to a conclusion that simply does not follow from what's on the screen. To this you scream, "but it's the classics, I tell you!" That is an absurd response to my point. I wasn't debating the merits of trying to get where the author is going. I was simply taking issue with the completely ineffective mode of transportation. And I was only doing that because you tangentially invited me to do so.

Now you have switched gears once again, making sweeping generalizations and mischaracterizations about my point in an effort to convince me that all modes of artistic transportation have something wonderful to offer. It should be clear to any rational person that analyzing the intent of the authors and directors of those two episodes and any other work is far beyond the scope of the original discussion, as well as, the subsequent discussion. It doesn't even belong on this board. This should have been understood before we even started down this path. I never ever claimed that another entirely different conversation wouldn't be meaningful to have that focused on many of the things that you wanted to focus on that had absolutely nothing to do with this original conversation. That's nothing more than your assertion ripped from the anus like a Law & Order episode. You wanted to go to Tunguska and bomb it. I wanted to stay on topic. That's exactly what happened, nothing more and nothing less.

I'm sure most artists start out with the intent to create a great work of art. Most fail. I'm not going to sit here and entertain the notion that every single hopeful artist has some wonderful story to offer me. You certainly aren't giving "modern dreck" the benefit of that outlook. I don't see why I should take advice from those who fail to take their own.

The fact is I have only ever asked for the duration and conclusion of any work to make sense. That's it. If it makes sense, I'm down with it, at least enough to be along for the ride, whether I like the destination or not. That doesn't mean it has to make sense in a linear analytical fashion. That's your claim, not mine. Both reason and emotion
have their appeal to my sensibilities. There are any number of ways for a story to play out such that it could have multiple endings THAT ALL MAKE SENSE, any one of which I might find satisfying. But once you've chosen any one of these roads less taken, you can't then show me an ending that's OBVIOUS to all concerned is supposed to end a certain way, where it's also OBVIOUS to all watching that it shouldn't have actually ended that way. And then use as an excuse "classic storytelling." Such contrived, pigeonholed storytelling, classic or not, ain't gonna fly.

It's you who are conflating distinct mediums of storytelling, even while admonishing me about literature and film. What I will accept from a novel isn't nearly the same thing that I would accept from a film or television show and vice versa. A movie or TV show simply cannot do what a novel or other literary work can, at least NOT in the same way. The reverse is also true. They both have to pick their battles and win them on their own terms. That's why books turned into movies and vice versa are adaptations, not one to one translations.

I'm not going to bother with all the other nonsense you've ripped from somewhere unsavory and which hails not at all from anything that I was actually talking about. The Great Wall of Text that would result from the "dialogue" would end up accomplishing nothing at all and amount to little more than an eyesore.

Instead here's another tangent for you, but it's actually more relevant than it seems:

This argument reminds me of a few I've had on this forum. One in particular was a disagreement over what science fiction is all about. I said it was about far reaching ideas, where the implications of those ideas mattered as much as the characters themselves. Where in fact, the science fiction is just one more main character in the cast, as important as any other. Others disagreed. It's just all about the characters and the sci fi was just an Uber ride those characters are taking to some hopefully wonderful place. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Take a look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-pF56-ZYkY

This may not be the classics, but this is science fiction to me. I'd love to see something like this as a teaser sequence opening any of the franchises' episodes.

It's only seven minutes of your life. And I could be wrong, but I do not believe any true science fiction fan would ask for those minutes back. I don't know if that describes you or not, but there we have it.

I was an avid reader when I was young. Nowadays I'd love to kick back and read a novel or three, but I simply don't have the time I had back in the day. I usually listen to audiobooks, as that allows me to go about my day and still get in some good storylistening.

My position is quite simply this. I have no problem with classic storytelling at all. If such storytelling can give me a feeling like the one I had when i first saw this video, I'm all on board. In fact, it has, during some of the Macbethian soliloquies. I haven't read Shakespeare in 30 years, but still remember some of the more potent experiences I gleaned from it. Beowulf also gave me that intense feeling of soaring to some distant place that can only be fathomed in dreams. But classics are not the be all and end all of storytelling. That would mean we had told all the stories worth telling and we should move on to other things besides storytelling.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my imagination. I can appreciate the classics just fine. But let me ask you, if all a man can appreciate is the classics, who's the one really being limited here? Will classic storytelling really get us everywhere we want to be? Has modern storytelling really fallen so short? If it has for you, why aren't you somewhere reading the classics for the billionth iteration, instead of on here arguing about "modern dreck"?
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