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Wisq
Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 4:09pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: The Deadly Years

This doesn't deserve even two stars. What a mess.

The focus should be on the aging problem, but instead we have a random love interest, a courtroom drama, an incompetent commodore, and a gratuitous and easily avoided encounter with Romulans.

How on earth do they have a flag officer, a commodore — who outranks captains — yet has never commanded a ship? If he outranks Kirk, why do they need a competency hearing for him to get command? And surely _someone_ would tell him "hey maybe flying into Romulan territory isn't the greatest idea you've ever had"?

Meanwhile, the solution to the aging problem ends up being _stupidly_ simple — which is good, because they have all of about five minutes to solve it amidst all that mess.

This a complete mishmash of concepts thrown together with awful pacing and no concern for common sense. Just give command to Sulu and get back to work, you nitwits.
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Qbic
Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 11:14am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Q Who

Wait... If the "history" between Picard and Guinan is that she's a Dauwd and he knows it then that would explain how Picard caught on so fast in "The Survivors". Oy.
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Qbic
Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 11:08am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S2: Q Who

"Maybe on the ship she adheres to some kind of rule that means she cannot interfere with lesser species"

Q's description of Guinan was reminiscent of Kevin Uxbridge's description of himself. Another Douwd?
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Qbic
Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 9:59am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S7: Descent, Part II

Maybe I'm being pedantic here, but Lore's Borgetable garden doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Ira Graves and Noonian Soong were human scientists who both managed to carry off a perfect-fidelity mind-transfer on their very first attempt. Later on Bashir, not a cybernetics expert but just a highly gifted human doctor, failed after a fashion but far less spectacularly than Lore did. (I'm pretty sure that a failure of that sort would count as a success in Lore's book.)

How do two super-intelligent androids (one of whom had been on the receiving end of Graves's mind-transfer) with access to Borg magi-tech manage to burn though half-a-dozen living subjects without once even doing at least as well as Bashir? (Or the EMH-1? Or that evil guy in Deep Space Nine who stole Bashir's body. Or that evil guy in Voyager who stole Kes's body. Or that other evil guy in Voyager who stole Tom's body. Or...) And why are they mucking around with creepy nanostuff anyway when they have transporter magic at their disposal? Maybe Lore really is just totally insane.
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4Q2
Tue, Jun 4, 2019, 9:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

"Everything that happened here is classified. Do not speak of it again."

I'm so effin on board with that.

Gave both seasons a fair shake. I shall (gladly) forget the whole thing.
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4Q2
Tue, Jun 4, 2019, 5:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

Cancel this dreck.

Give Anson Mount his own Pike-led show or put him in the Picard show.
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FutureQ
Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 1:08am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

@Booming

Oh, my mistake, I was basing my interpretation of what several the Writers have stated in the Past.

[Director Winrich Kolbe stated about the Cardassians, "They're the Prussians of the universe, always 'kill, kill, kill.'" (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, p. 22) On the other hand, episodes such as DS9: "Duet" and "Return to Grace" used the Cardassians as metaphors for the Nazis (with the Bajorans representing Jews)]


I mean - Duet is basically a callback to the Holocaust. Gul Darheel's "Butcher of Gallitep" title and character were modeled off the notorious Amon Goth, the real-world of Krakow. Hence the performance below:

-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVHR0UPHERQ&t=196s

I'd love to see your sources though regarding the Post-Soviet Interpretation, would you be kind enough to post and share with the group?

The fact remains though - the Federation had a War Criminal/Ex-Member of one of the most loathsome Intelligence agencies in the alpha quadrant running around their facilities.....


Doesn't change my point - we can shift this to "Ex-KGB officer who decided to become a tailor and work on An American Base..." its still pretty unrealistic.
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FutureQ
Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 12:57am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

If you look through the 186 or so comments that have been written - there's a trend of thought that "Geordi should have lost his job/never made it to his position due to his weirdness."

And it seems that what gives a warrant to this viewpoint is this weird idealized state of how Starfleet operates. And that's what i'm finding to be implausible - Starfleet isn't a perfect organization.

But let's run with Plausability for a second:

Season 3 Episodes 66 and 67 (Improbable Cause and The Die is Cast) of DS9 starts with Odo attempting to figure out who tried to assassinate Garak who's shop was just blown up. Odo hates Garak, Garak hates Odo, but we go on this weird "buddy" adventure till we arrive at the Romulans...and Enabrin Tain.

So SS Space Himmler (Enabrin) decides to offer Garak his old job back...… this results in.

1.) Ex-SS Space Nazi agreeing with SS Space Himmler that he will rejoin the Space Nazis.

2.) SS Space Nazi proceeds to Torture Odo

So let's think about that - Garak just rejoined the Space Nazis (betraying the Federation) and has decided that the appropriate course of action is Torture the Person who was Trying to Figure out who Garak's possible Assassin was.

3.) Everything of course goes to hell, because Changelings... Our Lovable SS Space Nazi is trying to save Dear Old Dad from impending doom, and they are going to die..... until Odo saves his life, gets him on a transport, and on the way back forgives Garak.

Result: Next Episode is Business as Usual .

Let's Process that for a Second:

An enemy combatant (he did rejoin the Space Nazis), who tortured an associated Starfleet Personnel, goes back to the Federation.....and nothing happens to him. He literally goes back to the whole information trading/assassination/luring a foreign power into a war/etc.

Plausible?

More importantly - perhaps i'm going out on a limb here, but I would think that if all of you feel that Leah Brahms has the right to be Angry with Geordi, Odo has the Right to be Angry with Garak from now until the End of Time. Because...

1.) He's only on this stupid mission because he was trying to help Garak.
2.) Garak betrayed the Greater Interplanetary Institution that has been sheltering him, which Odo believes in.
3.) His "reward" was getting the Changeling equivalent of being Waterboarded, Electrocuted, and having his Finger Nails Ripped out.

Look, I don't want to impose my own moral viewpoint on anyone - but where I come from, War Criminal Activity/Betrayal of the Nation just ranks a little bit higher than purely domestic issues such as sexual harassment, theft, etc. Crimes happen by Degrees. Stealing a stick of gum is a little bit different from a robbing the Federal Reserve.

But I dunno, like I said, maybe you all think about this differently - you can educate me on it.

So I don't think anyone has an objection to Odo being absolutely Livid with Garak…..you know, because the whole Torture thing (we can put aside Treason issue for now).

But - not only does Odo save his Life (he could have left him to do die with Space Himmler), he also forgives Garak.

He forgives Garak, because one of the underlying themes of both their Journeys is the Inability to Return Home. Despite their vastly different characters, Odo is capable of finding a Single Point of Kinship with the Man who just tried Torture the Crap out of him.

Odo wants to go home. But he can't.
Garak wants to go home - or as he told the Doctor when his implant failed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWiWD3reF8Q

..because back in Space Nazi Land, Garak had it all.


So... is Odo's forgiveness of Garak Plausible?

Because, if I were translate this into Real Life - this is the equivalent of an ex-member of ISIS, teaming up with a CIA or MI-6 agent, going to find a cell, only to be readmitted back into ISIS, proceeds to Torture the CIA agent, it all goes to hell, and the ex-ISIS member and the CIA agent riding off into the sunset with the CIA agent saying "What's a little torture between friends? Why don't you join me for breakfast tomorrow?"


……..yeah...….umm.. going to have to say no to that one.

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However, Odo's forgiveness of Garak seems to be channeling that "Rodenberry Utopianism" (it has to be...because of the Torture) - that even if the world is a generally crappy and horrible place - there is still Hope, even among people who have done terrible terrible life altering crimes against others.

We see this again also in Kira's Interaction with the person she believes to be Gul Darheel in Season 1, Episode 19 - "Duet." Specifically at the end.


I don't see these outcomes as being Plausible. They are highly implausible when reflected against what would probably occur in the real world.

So... looking at Leah Brahms/Geordi's situation. When folks say that Leah Brahms would have never forgiven Geordi - i'm forced to cognize this into one of two options:

1.) Folks are stating that what happened to Leah Brahms is worse than what happened to Odo. ie: Facsimile of Image > War Crimes/Treason/Torture.

Again - i'm not here to judge your personal moral codes. Just, from where I come from, the War Crimes/Treason thing is on a much higher tier. But, you do you.

2.) The character of Leah Brahms lacks personal depth that would incline her toward humanism and "Rodenberry Utopianism" that someone like Picard, Kira, Odo, Data, Tuvok, Janeway, Crusher etc. partake of.

That's perfectly fine, we've seen characters in the Federation and Starfleet who just kinda pay lip service to that all of that anyway.

Some people just can't forgive - Captain Maxwell in episode "The Wounded" went on a Vendetta against the Cardassians for the death of his wife and child. He brought the Federation to the brink of war, "justifying" his actions against the Cardassians as an attempt to "save the Federation" to Picard.

Does Maxwell have ever right to be angry with the Cardassians for the death of his wife and child? Wouldn't you be?

Was he right about the Cardassian plot of building a "science station" that was actually a forward military base - Yep.

But what did Picard do?

["One more thing Gul Macet: "Maxwell was right, those ships were not carrying scientific equipment were they? A 'research station' within arms reach of three Federation sectors? Cargo Ships running with high energy subspace fields that jam sensors?

Gul Macet: "If you believed the transport ship was carrying weapons captain, why didn't you board it as Maxwell requested?"

Picard: "I was here to Protect the Peace. A peace that I firmly believe is in the interest of both our peoples. If I had attempted to board that ship, i'm quite certain that you and I would not be having this pleasant conversation and that ships on both sides would now be arming for war."]

Maxwell lacked that "Rodenberry Utopianism," Jean-Luc Picard is the Freaking Moral Center of his Ship... the very best that the Federation and Starfleet could produce.

I would like to think of Leah Brahms to be more in that Picard Column than Maxwell's - otherwise it seems like you'd be impoverishing her character.

But hey, I've made my arguments, done my due diligence, did my research.

Choice is yours at the end of the day.
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FutureQ
Sun, Jun 2, 2019, 6:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

Regarding the Call for "Realism" in this episode -

The more I think about it, the more I find it to be an incredibly strange objection. If only because the numerous times the Narrative has been chosen over Realism for the sake of telling a SciFi story.

Again, it depends on whether or not you buy into Roddenberry's vision of the future, but I will point out one glaring issue with the idea of a moralistic efficiently run Starfleet.

Namely: The Presence of Elim Garak on DS9.

Garak was one of the most beloved showrunners, hell I like the character myself. Witty, charming, mysterious, and sarcastically comical.

He's also possiblely the main character with the most blood-soaked hands in all of Trekdom. Remember, "protégé of Enabran Tain, high ranking member of the Obsidian Order, spymaster, torturer of Bajoran Children, etc etc."

Cardassians, with their militaristic society, with their occupation and concentration camps (we all remember that stunning award wining episode "Duet", where Kira is interrogating the supposed "Butcher of Gallitep"), etc. etc.

I mean... let's call a duck a duck.. They are as close in Trekdom as you get to Space Nazis.

That makes Garak an Ex-Space Nazi.... not only an Ex-Space Nazi, but an Ex-Space Nazi who was a high ranking member of the SS.

So you have this Ex-SS Space Nazi....working as a tailor.... on a Federation-run space station...…

Realism? Really? Because if I were to translate that into real life, that would be the equivalent of an Ex-Nazi SS Officer deciding to be a tailor on an American base in say... Israel...

In Real Life, someone like Garak would have been either assassinated by Israeli Mossad OR would have been interrogated by the Americans and (assuming they needed him) would probably be shipped to a Mid-western state where he would be monitored and checked-in on every so often.

Instead - he's at a critical point in space, abutting the border of a hostile power, one that he used to be a member of the Ruling Elite....

Again... is this Realism?

FURTHERMORE, the way he is written and the way he is acted, the audience develops Empathy for our little Cardassian….who is a liar, thief, murderer, and actively took part in the genocide of a species.

The reason is because we see he goes through an Story Arc of Redemption. Its painful, haunting, and let's face it by the end of it - Garak has lost everything.

In the Real World, someone like Garak would have been tried at Nuremberg, or would have ended up like Rudolph Eichmann at brought to Israel.

But the reason why we can tolerate this is - Garak is Fictional.

And hence why I say, the call for "realism" is very odd depending on the context. Unless of course you think War Criminals from an Opposing Power walking around a military base is a normal thing.

:shrug: I leave this in your hands Americans.
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FutureQ
Sun, Jun 2, 2019, 10:43am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

If I had the ability to rewrite this episode (or insert another Leah Brahms episode was planned), I would have still framed it as a growth/development story for Geordi but with a twist - Virtual Leah vs. Real Leah.

Things off the top my head:

1.) A quizzical looking Picard doing a "Captain's Log, Supplemental: Our ship's Computer seems to have come into an altercation with my Chief Engineer"

2.) Pick up on those unused threads about Leah Brahms. Perhaps Dr. Brahms marriage is in a very very fragile place, and she's dealing with a husband who is having trouble coping with the success of his wife (she's further up the food chain at the Daystrom Institute).

This isn't that much of reach - I've actually had to deal with situations like this in real life. But it does give us dramatic license to show why Brahms' is a bit curt/short with people. She's under pressure.

3.) Virtual Leah receives a system error - this isn't like Moriarty, this is a Terminator you can't unplug. She's very supportive of Geordi...….which starts to veer into the realm of protective...possessive.

4.) We Keep the Scene - Because as I said, its just pure gold.

5.) Real Leah finds her self-trapped in the Holodeck with Virtual Leah who has gone Rampant.

6.) Geordi get's his Sophie's Choice moment, The Fantasy vs. The Reality. He's learnt his lesson though - he apologizes to Real Leah and protects her before being critically injured by Rampant Virtual Leah who is eventually defeated by a combination of his own actions, Data, and Wesley.

(And now we have a reason for Wesley to make that comment during Sarek).

7.) The fact that Real Leah is able to see the true character of La Forge, allows her to forgive him (because I think Sacrificing one's self is a good enough apology wouldn't you all agree?).

8.) And we can throw back that line in from the original script

LEAH: My husband? His name is Michael [I'd change it to Levar, after Geordi's actor name]... he's an engineer on Garran-four...
(beat)... you'd like him.

GEORDI: I'm sure...

LEAH: You remind me of him actually. [Addition: When we were younger.....before....before...]

[Invented Stage Direction: Nostalgic tension, there is an extreme wistfulness in her voice...a longing for a happier time.....]

And we interrupt with the "Phone Call" - Worf patches it through.... it Rings...it Rings.....it Rings....

They stare at each other.... it Rings... it Rings....

LEAH: [Invented Dialogue: I have to go.... its my husband]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Main Point: We keep the Awkwardness of the Encounter (that's the point of the Episode!) We just resolve it better.

We hammer home the Fantasy vs. Reality issue, we show a more fully developed Leah Brahms, we show a Geordi who has learned.

We have Comedic Gold in the form of the Scene, and also the fact that Wesley and Picard know that.... Geordi's Virtual Girlfriend almost Doomed the Enterprise ;-). That wouldn't be common knowledge though, I rather like the idea of Wesley holding it over Geordi's head every so often.


Finally, it also.... it makes Leah's planned appearance in Star Trek Nemesis as Geordi's girlfriend to Riker/Troi's wedding make more sense. We see two very mature figures at that time, whose personalities have settled, who have learned to forgive, and who may have found a spark of something... a hint of happiness.. in the decade or so from the first encounter.
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FutureQ
Sun, Jun 2, 2019, 9:15am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

@Booming

In regards to the Black Mirror episode you cited, I think that's a good foil for the situation.

It's incredibly easy for us to indict Robert Daly for his actions because we see the concrete steps he's taken to create/torture the artificial intelligence he has generated.

If you start from the very top of this comments section and read all the way down, what you often see are assumptions made as to how that last line in Booby Trap came about.

We don't see any clear intentionality on the part of Geordi that equals what Robert Daly committed. In fact, if you sum up the textual evidence (Script, Screenplay, Commentaries by directo and cast) we have, it points to a serendipitous occurrence (i.e.: the Computer did it) - as I said before this is the Space Version of the Greek Legend Pygmalion.

This doesn't rob the embarrassing tone of the incident (theres a reason why that portion of the episode is copied multiple times as videos on YouTube, most people who don't even follow Trek just like the dramatic situation - a Kin to the type of drama people get from reality tv dating shows), but at the same time there is no further evidence to suggest Geordi did anything untoward with that Program after the events of Booby Trap.

If he did, Real Leah Brahms would have been able to play-back. Instead, the last tidbit we see is the last line from Booby Trap.
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FutureQ
Sat, Jun 1, 2019, 8:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

@Jack

"Probably typical white-knighting. I’m sure if we gender-swapped Geordi/Leah and had a woman create a man to help her with engineering problems in a holodeck, no one would say boo. "

Funny you should mention that...

Ron Randall wrote a story which turned into a comic book.....

https://defconprime.tumblr.com/post/167126380118
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FutureQ
Sat, Jun 1, 2019, 7:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

@Jason R

I think it would be appropriate to chop this up a little bit as to where the offense may lay:

1.) One can be offended by the -writers- presenting a certain type of situation that a viewer may find displeasing.

2.) One can be offended by the actions of the characters within the context of the world they are living in.

Its Reasonable to assume that the writers were attempting to develop a kind of Story-Arc for Geordi, which actually goes beyond these two Episodes and could arguably be fit into the relationship between Geordi and Christy Henshaw. Remember, Christy is the girl who rejected him at the beginning of "Booby Trap"?

We should also look at Geordi by the time of the episode of "Transfigurations", where he seems to be progressing in that relationship and is noted by Riker to be a lot more confident not only around women but just in general....

But to get from Point A (Booby Trap) to Point B (Transfigurations) they had to put him through the ringer - he had to make Errors.

This is why I think the Leah Brahms arc is important, because the whole scenario forces Geordi on the path of being a better person - the type of person who could attract Christy Henshaw...

The type of person who by the time of Nemesis has become a writer (do you remember in Galaxy's Child, how he said he couldn't write) - ie: surpassing a perceived limitation, as well as becoming more competent and confident in himself.

…..and if i'm to believe two fictional novels and 1 actress, he's become the type of person Dr. Leah Brahms -would- want to date. It just took him about 7-8 years to grow in that direction and deal with life changing events like...… the Borg, Data/Lore Trying to Kill Everyone, a couple Universe-ending time paradoxes, more Borg, etc. etc.
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The offense seems to emanate from the scenario. I mean, to be honest, Galaxy's Child is pretty cringeworthy, but acceptable due to dramatic license. As a 3rd Party Viewer, there's a kind of comedic element to the scene where Geordi walks in on Brahms. Much of the commentary I see from the young-ins is "This is the equivalent of your girlfriend or wife looking through your web-browsing history."

While that might be overstated, it does point to the fact that Leah got to see a bit of Geordi's mind as well. I'm not trying to imply anything untoward as some folks in this thread have done - that off-camera Geordi was getting it on with Porn Star Leah or something.

Rather, throughout the episode you could tell she was kind of quizzically confused as to how Geordi knew things about her. Sometimes it provoked her defensiveness, other times it made her soften.

And upon finding it, she obviously initially assumed the worst For that moment, it was a reasonable assumption (and comedy gold for the viewer). We have already established the character as being a person with a private and somewhat curt exterior.

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It the denouement that pisses off people because to some it appears that "Geordi got away with it"..... although I would contend otherwise.... as I've stated (as Guinan stated no less), Geordi had to dump a lot of his preconceived notions. Otherwise he won't progress to being Geordi a la "Transfigurations"

If this were a plot where Geordi and Brahms were teenagers, I think people would be more forgiving to be honest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to echo a comment, made in 2013 by forum user Grumpy higher up in the thread.

I think the writers dropped the ball on exploring something that occurred in Booby Trap, which could have been tied into Galaxy's Child.

The issue being "Dream Leah" was a combination of the Psych Metrics of Leah Brahms as a personality template.... AND the Computer.

Is the Computer sentient? Hell - its created Sentient Beings (Moriarty) and could such a sentience develop a capacity to care for the person who knows it intimately.

"Dream Leah" is aware its a program - it said as much when she and Geordi were trying to figure out how to get out of the trap.

It also puts a different context on the last phrase "Everytime you touch it, its me."

The Problem with taking this route is:

1.) You end up with the Ship's Computer being like the Doctor on Voyager.

2.) Think about how Geordi's character arc will go now.

Geordi fails with real women, so now he dates a virtual one?

Can this be considered progress? Is this desirable?

I mean - in the Real World we live in an age where people are eschewing real relationships for Virtual Ones (I read an article where two folks were dating from 16-24, even though they had only met each other for 21 minutes in real life) or turning toward Sex Bots.

Part of this also makes me wonder if the message that this would send would be: "Socially inept people don't bother with trying to fix your social life. Go make out with your computer."


:shrug: Time will tell.


Although now I have a thought. If we in the 21st century have to deal with things like DeepFake Videos (especially DeepFake Porn), I don't see how its conceivably possible to regulate Holodeck Programs to do the same thing.


And hence one of the reasons why Quark Stays in in Business I guess....
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FutureQ
Sat, Jun 1, 2019, 3:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

@Dougie

Interesting, like Abby, I think I do like this episode (paired with Booby Trap) a lot precisely -because- it is cringeworthy. I think all Art (and yes, I just called Star Trek art) tends to be -provocative-, especially science fiction and the dramatic situation of this episode stirs emotions in people, it has done its job.


I suppose it kind of falls on where you stand in terms of Gene Roddenberry's vision. Truth be told, while i'm quite sympathetic to it i'm more in line with the DS9 head writers take on the Future - Striving for Utopia, yet acknowledging cynical realities.

Re: Psych Evals - to be honest with you Dougie…. at least in Real Life... these things don't tend to pick up on certain character traits or problems either in the military or in private industry ( there's that job security for me again! ;-) ).

I stand by my initial statement: People, in general, are exceedingly complicated in terms of their wants, desires, motivations, and dreams. And competency or expertise in a field such as Robotics or Quantum Physics does not correlate directly with emotional development.....even among the best and brightest of us.

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On more note: I once had the opportunity a while back to speak with Susan Gibney, the actress who portrayed Leah Brahms, at a convention.

I'm not really a convention goer (and no it wasn't even a Star Trek related one), but several of my friends are - so its more of an excuse for me to see them and hang out so to speak.

I asked Ms. Gibney (who I think was doing more other TV series related things at the time - she's on Crossing Jordan btw) what her take on it was.

She said something rather interesting, if I recall correctly it was something like - "I always imagined that there was some other thing that was driving the character's mood. Did you notice the number of times she was taking "phone calls" from her husband?"

I got interested in that comment and went back to Original Script and Stage Directions again - there's a small comment that never made it into the episode where she does in fact compare Geordi to her husband as being quite similar in behaviors/ways of thinking. There's also a tantalizing missing piece of Stage Direction that accompanies this....and occurs right before she has to take her "call" again.

Ms. Gibney also commented that she was supposed to appear in Star Trek Nemesis, attending Riker and Troi's wedding as Leah Brahms being Geordi's wedding date with....more tantalizing Dialogue with Geordi. Of course, Geordi by Nemesis was a very different person and so would Leah Brahms be as well.

Such are the Trials and Gifts bestowed by Age and Time.

Unfortunately, she had committed to another project concurrent with the shoot, although she'd be up for a cameo (she's apparently got a very good repoire with the Trek Admin people)
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FutureQ
Fri, May 31, 2019, 3:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Galaxy's Child

First, I want to state that the thread of comments attached to this episode is perhaps quite fascinating in terms of watching the shift in judgment and perception that has occurred in the Real World toward the issues discussed, especially to someone who is not born in the West and doesn't really participate in the er… 'broader culture' if you will. Part of me wishes we could get comments all the way back in 1991 and all the way forward to 2040 just to see the trajectory of opinion.

Second, @ Abby - I loved the chemistry of the actors and actually wished this storyline progressed. Like you, I tend to watch this less for the moralizing comments that abound and more for the dramatic situation.

Third, I was so taken by this episode and Booby Trap that I decided to comb through the scripts, directors commentary, and actor/actress commentary that's been had over the character of Leah Brahms and her relationship to Geordi.

If we take 10 steps back, this is an old story - as old as the Greek Myth of Pygmalion (rundown: Gifted Artist/Technician with crap social skills is blessed by I guess Zeus and the Gods with a wife who is one of his statues turned human).

But taken together its also the breaking of that Myth, the end of an Illusion.

Let's be frank and fair - Geordi is awkward. Some people might say "well he's too old to be like that/this is an action of a teenager/this run against his perceived character in other episodes," and my response to all of that is: People are very complicated. I've seen some of the most brilliant minds at MIT and Caltech be unable to navigate other peoples - much less their own emotions.

These two episodes toward are kind of a journey for Geordi from Fanciful Illusion to Reality and the pain/embarrassment/awkwardness that go with that journey.

The crux of the matter is the misperception Geordi received about Leah Brahms due to the facsimile created by the computer. We must remember, that Holodeck technology and the capabilities/limitations of the Computer don't seem that well understood at times ( I mean the creation of Moriarty in Ship in a Bottle was a pure accident).

I can't help but make the connection that Geordi seems to be extrapolating his experiences from the simulation in the way that Millennials and others seem to pin hopes on some sort of Dating Algorithm or Pop Psychology categorization that will somehow take the bite out of dating and lead one to their One True Love....

….. so how's that working for us in the real world? ;-)

What I like about the episode is how every single second, Reality in the form of the Real Leah Brahms keeps smashing that dream to bits. And Geordi can't seem to figure it out (he's not Riker or Kirk folks :P) until Guinan has to hit him over the head.

Its at that moment that we see - Geordi's got his realization....sadly a little too late before the Holodeck incident, but he's learnt the lesson at least.

The "Dating Algorithm" 's 9% flaw is quite palpable and Virtual Leah has nothing in common with Real Leah.

What a minute - Stop. Think. Breathe.

I have often found it funny the amount of attention that Geordi receives in the analysis of the two episodes as opposed to Leah - who at least from a professional perspective is the far more interesting personality in this interaction.

So let's focus on Leah for a second.

Digging through the Staging Directions and the Scripts for both episodes, I note the following (some has already been said)


1.) She does not come onto the Enterprise with a neutral tone (First Words: "La Forge. So you're the one who's fouled up my engine design.") - she's perturbed about.....something that is never made explicit. And as such she's a little curt with Geordi…. although we are left out of the tantalizing reason as to why.


2.) We are also given glimpses of Leah's own character (she ain't Troi's Mom ;-) )

LEAH: "Well, to be honest, some people find me cold, cerebral, lacking
in humor..."

LEAH: "Well, I... try... not to be that way. But when it comes to my
designs, to my engines...especially the ones on the Enterprise..."

GEORDI: "... they're like your children."

[Stage Direction: She gives him a look of sheer amazement. How did he know what she was going to say?]

LEAH: You -- understand that?

[He doesn't say, "I'm the father," but that's there. She is utterly taken aback by his understanding.

***She lets her guard down just a little... ]

LEAH: That's amazing. I don't think anyone has ever...

[She hesitates, ***not comfortably able to discuss her feelings.]

LEAH: ***Sometimes I'm more comfortable with engine schematics than with
people.

If I had to do a psych assessment with the little I've got to go off of.
Highly Intelligent Introvert Intuitive Thinker.

She's also very private. She takes her husband's call without even referring to what she's doing. Meanwhile, I can take a bus or subway or sit in a café and overhear people chatting and gossiping about loved ones and friends.

So you have this quiet, intelligent, defensive person who...…..gets to see that Holodeck Fantasy. OF COURSE SHE'S GOING TO BE LIVID!

But I don't think people are going to give her enough credit as to -why- she apologized.

Leah's a smart cookie, you can tell that immediately. Keep things Rational, keep things Reasonable. After she recovers from an uncharacteristic outburst on her part and Geordi's - the gears in her mind are turning.

You think she's the type of person to speculate wildly or work from evidence? She's got the whole Time Log of "Booby Trap" recorded - she can see with her own two eyes the genesis of Virtual Leah, she can go over alterations to the program.

We should also note that, up until this moment, she was gaining some professional respect for Geordi. Go back over the parts where they are talking about alterations. She's curious, impressed, and interested in what he's accomplished.

You ever see two people, couple/friends/etc., completely lost in something? Whether its fishing, or baking, or some other activity, they get so into it that the world drops away and they might as well be speaking a foreign language to us mere onlookers?

This is where I think Leah shines - Yes she has every right to be Angry as Hell.

But she gives Geordi a second chance - but very very tentatively acting cool and professional and saying "If you would like a suggestion.."

And when working on the Problem - she "Nerds out" with Geordi if I may borrow a phrase: [ Stage Direction: She's drawn in, curious...she's lost her icy demeanor.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So at the end we have two highly intelligent, eminently awkward people, attempting to bury the hatchet so to speak and try something akin to a friendship.

Is it perfect? Hell no...

But I think this is where I will stand up a little higher and speak professionally for a second: Human Relationships are Never Perfect Nor Completely Rational - not now and not in the 24th Century.

If these things always made sense, hell, i'd be out of a job. ;-)

As for Virtual Leah/Real Leah - i'll make a conjecture.

The Psych Metrics were correct - because Psych Metrics are usually about the Internal State of a Person. Internal states aren't always expressed. Virtual Leah doesn't carry on her the strain, stress, and problems of everyday life. She does not truly feel the disappointments, the failures, and the things that can make us all crabby and put up Walls.
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Wisq
Tue, May 21, 2019, 11:23pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Tomorrow Is Yesterday

A funny romp, but that ending … ugh. There’s just so many things wrong with it:

• How is Christopher’s memory wiped? They just hand-wave it away as “those things haven’t happened yet, so you won’t remember them”, but by that logic, the entire crew should be amnesiacs.
• How do they beam him back into his fighter jet? They destroyed the jet. They would have to radio the other Enterprise and tell them “hey beam this guy out, we’ll beam him back in, and for god’s sake don’t use the tractor beam”.
• The guard on the base — ditto. This one makes even less sense, since they beam the guard out/in at a point when he hadn’t yet found Kirk and Sulu. (In fact, this suggests that the poor guard is now caught in a time loop where he keeps finding Kirk and Sulu, getting beamed out, getting beamed back in a few minutes earlier, finding Kirk and Sulu again, etc.)
• The chronometers going backwards again. That’s not how chronometers work, damnit. (And I always wondered why people on Quora asked silly questions like “if I went backwards in time, what time would my watch say it was?”)
• Seriously, if time travel were this bloody easy, all wars would be time wars and things would just get very ridiculous very fast.

The entire ending of this episode made _no_ sense. I realise this is Trek, and Trek always puts the “fiction” in “science fiction”. But usually they at least try to have some basic consistency in their plots.

Even in that wacky episode with Alice and the White Rabbit and the samurai and the strafing WW2 planes, they wrapped it up nicely with “well your thoughts became real, so weird stuff happened”. This one just seems to give up and go “we’re out of time, let’s just handwave everything away”.
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Quetzalcoatl
Wed, May 8, 2019, 8:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

Why are they using feet instead of meters in this episode?
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Quincy
Thu, May 2, 2019, 8:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

@Trent

That's true. But then I'm not one of the ones claiming The Orville is the real Trek, while Discovery is "The Other Show™." So since the comparison has been made by multiple people, it has to be dealt with.
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Quincy
Thu, May 2, 2019, 8:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

@Gerontius

But there is something irrational about confronting people with different preferences and arguing as if your personal preferences were objectively better. Hence, my point.
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Quincy
Thu, May 2, 2019, 8:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

Elliot cameo FTW!!!

OmicronThetaDeltaPhi says:
"Or in less dramatic, less confrontational terms: Liking/disliking a show is an emotional reaction, and people tend to give more leeway to shows that they like.

The way you posted it, it sounds like you made a shocking revelation of some corrupt conspiracy, when you've simply stated the obvious."

Dave in MN was pulling an Alan Roi. I respond to him in kind. You then walk past all of that to admonish me about being confrontational? Really?!? Have you met Alan Roi?! Because, you don't seem to be aware of how ridiculous that state of affairs happens to be. It's hilarious how people want to police my tone, but they never seem to police the tone of the people I'm replying to in the first place.

If I was making a "shocking revelation of some corrupt conspiracy," why in the world would I refer to it as a "lampshade"? What is the definition of "lampshading" and how does it apply to Galadriel's statement? And what's the relevance of it in my comment to Dave? Please, try to at least think about these questions before replying.



OmicronThetaDeltaPhi says:
"At any rate, here is an interesting question that you might want to think about: WHY are so many people fans of the Orville? Sure, it's an emotional decision. But why? Hint: it's not because the show excels at (or even attempts to be) hard sci fi."

I would assume they like it for many of the same reasons I do. It's funny sometimes and gives you that old Trek nostalgia. It's got good special effects, a decent cast, and it's science fiction, for god's sake. What's not to like?

But waitaminute! Hint? Was that your version of a "shocking revelation"? Cause I gotta tell you. I'm at least as underwhelmed as you were.



OmicronThetaDeltaPhi says:
"But it's a matter of degree. In the Orville it happens occasionally, and most of the time it isn't too difficult to retcon the nits away. In Discovery, on the other hand, the entire show made a complete mess of previous Trek continuity. The situation was so hopeless that the show runners were forced to go the "let's pertend the previous two seasons never happened" route. That's a pretty big difference, I'll say."

Discovery did mess with continuity. That's undeniable. Yes, this does annoy me, like a lot of other people. However, you seem to be speaking out of both sides of your fingertips. On the one hand, you're calling me Mr. Obvious for bothering to point at the subjective nature of it all. (Possibly, because you didn't see what I was actually pointing at.) On the other hand, now you seem to be reaching for some nonexistent objectivity.

it's a matter of degree... TO YOU. That's what's important... TO YOU. Other people are looking at things from an entirely different point of view. I for one like both Discovery and The Orville. And I can look at any given episode of either and admit when something is ridiculous. This episode of the Orville was ridiculous.
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Quincy
Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 7:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

@Dave in MN

Go watch that episode where The Orville dives into 2D space. Then come back and watch this episode where they dive into the event horizon of a black hole. Note the very obvious difference, besides the fact that that episode was actually funny. That's actually what I was expecting. There's a singular problem. The Krill are coming to kill them. The quantum drive is down. The only way out is for them to dip into 2D space and escape. But, how does a 3D life form survive in 2D space? LaMarr realizes that, while the engine realignment is keeping them from going to quantum speed, the quantum field generator is working. They figure out that they can use it to place a quantum bubble around the ship. Isaac explains that the bubble is maintaining a third dimension outside of 2D space for the Orville to safely exist in.

Let's put aside for a moment that the nonexistence of our third dimension isn't exactly the same phenomenon as crushing gravity. Look at how the two episodes handled the phenomenon. In New Dimensions they spend 30 seconds screen time discussing the idea, because the idea is clearly NUTS. They don't have much choice; the Krill are coming to kill them in 14 minutes of in universe time and the quantum drive is out. Ed makes a command decision. They spend about 1 minute screen time implementing the idea and working out the issues. They leave right before the Krill show up. It's touch and go inside 2D space, but they just barely squeak out a win and when they come out the Krill are gone. They breathe a sigh of relief at their very narrow victory. It makes logical sense that the Krill might not know exactly where they went or what the hell to do about it if they did. It also makes logical sense that they might not care since the ship with their stolen guns is floating right there in front of them and they can get their cargo back and be on their merry way.

In this episode, the Kaylon are coming to kill them. Their quantum drive just got knocked out again. They can't escape, so they need somewhere to hide. Ed's idea is to hide inside the black hole. The idea is obviously NUTS. They spend 15 seconds discussing this obviously fruit loop idea. LaMarr says if they dip inside the black hole just beyond the event horizon they should be safe. They fly directly into black hole AT FULL SPEED AHEAD, yet somehow stop just inside the event horizon. (Law of conservation of momentum anybody?!? Those must be American made quantum engines, built Ford tough!) Remember that none of them know anything about the 2D space event, as this is a different timeline. Kelly is the only one who MIGHT know of it, since she spent time reading her future self's logs. (Here's a novel concept; why the hell doesn't she bring this up?!? It would've taken 1 minute and 30 seconds like it did the first time. If she had, I MIGHT NOT have a problem with at least that part of this silly episode! Funny that, huh?)

LaMarr also said the Kaylons won't see them because light can't escape. Now really think about that for a moment. Didn't the Kaylons see them fly their asses into the black hole? It certainly looked like they did. They hung around outside for two days searching for something. Didn't the Kaylons wonder why they'd fly into a black hole willingly rather than just fight it out if they wanted to die so badly? Then they just fly right out of the event horizon. Contrary to popular belief, there is no bubble around the ship. We can clearly see the bubble you mentioned in New Dimensions. We see absolutely no bubble in Road Not Taken. There is no mention of the field generator being active despite the drive being down. There's no mention of anything. They just fly in and fly out like it's totally routine to site see inside the event horizon of a black hole. But if it's as routine to do what they did, why wouldn't the Kaylons do it too? They have the quantum drive too. And theirs weren't offline. Not only that, they can literally transfer their consciousness through their internet connection, so unlike the humans there's absolutely no danger if they screw up, just a loss of equipment. You're telling me you don't see the logical inconsistency here?

Lets stop pretending. What's really going on with your arguments is something else entirely. Lets look at the nice fat lampshade posted by Galadriel (you know... the other person that leaped to the defense of this obviously idiotic episode) that's sitting somewhere above this post:

Galadriel says:
"I’d probably pan The Other Show™ merci­less­ly for these plot­holes. But strange­ly, they don’t affect me as badly in this show. Maybe I am a hypo­crite..." (FULL STOP)

See this is what I'm talking about. There's a cult of personal preferences at work here, not only with Galadriel, but with you as well. You've DECIDED you don't like Discovery and you DECIDED that you do like the Orville. Now you're pretending that you have rational reasons for both of those purely emotional decisions. However, ALL detractors arguments against Discovery are ALL applicable here; this episode was flat out absurd. Lets look at your arguments. You don't like Discovery crapping all over Canon CONTINUITY across multiple franchises separated by decades. However The Orville craps all over its own CONTINUITY within a single season by having Kaylons not being aware some of them are being attacked by humans in the previous Kaylon two parter. Meanwhile, as others point out here in this episode, Kaylons are instantaneously aware that a disassembled unit is being downloaded and hacked, because all Kaylons everywhere are interlinked. Dafuq?!? Explain your way out of this one if it helps you sleep better tonight. But, I promise you, you won't be convincing me of anything without better logic than you've presented here today.
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Quincy
Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 3:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

@Jim1701
"@Quincy......

You can get your point across, if you have one, without the language.

This is a forum for discussion and points can be made without fuc*ing
this and fuc*ing that."

Hmm. Honest question. Are you Jammer and you just changed your name?
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Quincy
Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 3:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

Holy $#!%, Batman!

Dave in MN is arguing that $#!% that obviously doesn't make any sense actually made sense!!!

He's a god damned Orville flavored Alan Roi!!! Somebody call a physicist or Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson or Michio Kaku!!! We must have ran into a quantum filament or some $#!% like that!!!
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Quincy
Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:54pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

I'm 24 minutes in and I'm like dafuq?!? They flew into the event horizon of a fucking black hole. A fucking black ass hole, people. They hang out for a few minutes watching the pretty Kalon dance show at the MGM Black Hole Grand. Then they just fly the fuck out of the event horizon like it's easy peasy lemon squeezy?!? Even Interstellar was like, we got to take a stroll through the 5th dimension to get out of this mother lover.

Once again, dafuq?!?
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Quincy
Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

I'm 11 minutes in and I'm like dafuq?!? Ed's penis being barred from Kelly's vagina has caused the destruction of "half the galaxy." Once again, dafuq?!?
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