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Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Light and Shadows

The fight between Burnham and Georgiou annoyed me. Not because it wasn't choreographed well, but because I don't know how the hell it was choreographed, due to shaky cam man rearing his hideous mug. While that's not the worst shaky cam and fight editing I've seen (that honor goes to Night Hunter's shaky cam and Mile 22's horrific fight choreography editing), it was pretty bad. When you're watching a good cat fight and it feels like you're missing half the meows, that's some bad camera work at the worst possible time. Somebody needs to be made to SUFFER for making me miss out on a Michelle Yeoh ass whooping!

The frenetic pace of the time distortion plot was aggravating. I knew there was going to be a problem with pacing, when I looked and saw the episode was only going to be 40 minutes. Jesus, slow dafuq down! Somebody call the highway patrol. The pacing reminds me of one of the Shonda Rhimes shows, like How to Get Away with Murder, where everything's a whirlwind. A lot of modern shows seem to have this problem. Makes me wonder if this is due to copycats, a lot of the same people working across productions, or an artifact of the current generation.

As far as Ariam needing better antiviral software, lets just say she's got quite a few centuries worth of virus definitions to download and... it's going to take awhile. Amazing how no one suspected that she might be vulnerable, considering how quickly and easily the hijacked probe penetrated the shuttle's and then Discovery's computers. Not to mention, what happened recently with the sphere. The security chick with the Bluetooth headset screwed into both sides of her face should automatically suspect she's been compromised. I sure as hell would. I'd have the entire compliment of ship's personnel perform a level googolplex diagnostic on every computerized system in the ship, including all cybernetic people. What the probe was searching for is up for speculation, but seeing as they just got a 100k years worth of intel downloaded from the sphere... To paraphrase John Wick, yeah, I'm kind of thinking it's going to find it.
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Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 3:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Paradise

The "astatine deposits" have got to be an in-joke. Astatine is one of the most unstable elements (the name actually derives from the Greek word for "unstable") and any quantity of it, however large, would decay to nothing within days. (Yeah, they weren't real, but still...)
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Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 8:02am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Light and Shadows

There were few things that resonated with me, and some that didn't.
I like the dynamic between Amanda and Sarek. That drama felt like a real problem for these two. But that's pretty much all I care for in this Vulcan soap. I still don't understand why there was a need to have Spock being part of the show. Why could Michael not have a distinctly different half-Vulcan foster brother? (this concept alone feels contrived). It also rubs me the wrong way that Spock is such a conflicted mess in this show when he was previously the most stable character in scripted TV and movie.
Somebody mentioned upthread that there is still unfinished business between Stamets and Tyler. I want to add Culber to that topic. How does he feel about his killer being on Discovery and everybody pretty much being cool about it? Complain all you want about DS9. But that show was usually very good at dealing with following up on consequences. DS9 would have devoted an entire episode on this one question. In Discovery we may get three scenes for this. I suppose that's the disadvantage of having relatively short seasons. But maybe I'm complaining too early. Culber is still recovering. His behavior indicated that there is still struggle to unfold.

I liked the Georgiou story. It was less mustache twirling this time. The empress has always been very much a standard evil character. When she was evil in her universe she was always tactical, never very strategic. She was always killing everybody on the spot. Now it looks like she is plotting long term to reach a goal. I want to know what that goal is. Is it just world domination? Does she want to go back home? Or is there something else she wants?

One last thing: I want Burnham to stop whispering.
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Fri, Mar 1, 2019, 4:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Light and Shadows

I should not really have liked this episode but I did. I do prefer the single stand alone episodes. Yes I accept a parallel main theme. Here it was two stories, but I still enjoyed it. In fact I even liked the "michelle yeoh" part.

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Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 5:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part I

Uh yeah.

TBOBW was the last time I had to pick up my jaw off the ground at a cliffhanger.

.....29 years ago.

Ho. Lee. Shit.
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Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 9:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

As far as people having a problem with mustache twirling Georgiou, can someone refresh my memory as to which evil mirror character, besides Spock, wasn't a mustache twirling caricature. I can't remember one, but I've only seen about half the mirror episodes anyway. Otherwise, that seems to be par for the course for mirror characters.
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Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

I hated the fact that Culber was brought back. Not only is it the wrong move story-wise, it didn't make any sense how they did it. How did he transport Culber into the network? I could understand if they'd had his body originally being buried in the network somehow, but the way they did it just made no sense. Also, the crises didn't make any sense at all considering the reveal. How the hell is shadow bark encrusted Culber killing off her people? If he's covered in toxic tree goo (which to me seemed to be native to the network), which was poisonous to spore creatures trying to eat it, JUST STAHP TRYING TO EAT HIS ASS! Problem solved. They have free will don't they? They quit trying to eat Tilly when told to. Go on a damn dead doctor deficient diet and STFU. How hard is that?

The May alien rebuilds his body from scratch with that same diseased booger interface with which she pilfered, plundered, and pillaged Tilly's village. I guess it's half replicator-half transporter. It breaks the body down atom by atom into a matter stream and transports you into and out of the spore network then reconstitutes your form. In this case, I guess she had Culber's pattern and she rebuilt his body from scratch with the replicator function.

It's definitely bad for the show. Culber's death served the show well. It increased the tension as it let the viewer know a main cast member can still die. Now not so much. It humanized Stamets for me at least. Up till then he was just the show's resident asshole. I thought for sure they were going to leave it at his being unable to cross over at the point when they were trying to get back home. That would've been a powerful moment and would've saved the episode for me. "You have to let me go." That could've led to some real character development for Stamets, but no such luck.

Only thing I like about this episode is that the dirty booger alien lost her Tilly interface, rebuilding Culber's ass from scratch. Maybe, just maybe, we won't see her behind for quite some time. I've got my fingers crossed. There's been entirely too much Tilly these last too episodes; I don't know how much more of her I can stand.

Another thing that's annoying me, it seems this season is destined to get overly maudlin from now on. All that panic with Burnham running to the spore room at the beginning was way over the top. (She was trained as a Vulcan. It's an artistic mistake to have her gushing all over the place, regardless of whether or not people want her "emoting.") And at the end, all that garbage about Tilly's sudden onset best friendship forever with May, whom she couldn't wait to get the hell away from ever since she found out she was ghost/dirty booger alien, was absolutely ridiculous. You staged a booty invasion, ass-jacked me to the upside down, and now no one knows me better! You're totally my BFF!!! Dafuq?!?
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Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

I'm seriously baffled by the idea that this plot was ludicrous or some cop-out by the writers. If you watched Season 1, the way Culber is uploaded to the network and eventually returns is foreshadowed and explained by Tilly and Culber in the back half of the season. We had a pretty good idea this would happen, so kudos to the writers for embedding that story into Season 1. Point being, the story here was a natural outgrowth of last season, and one people predicted.

And the show itself explains Culber's immaculate and later rough forms quite well. He was neural energy, along with the Stametses and Discovery in Season 1; he was then reconstituted physically, which is what we see here.

Also, the mycelial network is indeed based on real science--real science stretched and imaginatively deployed as a kind of cosmic "What if?", but far more grounded in actual science than a good deal of what Star Trek has passed off as science.
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Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 1:25am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Deflectors

This episode, while enjoyable for what it was, didn't quite work for me in its execution. It was basically TOS's "Court Martial" + TNG's "The Outcast" = The Orville's "Deflectors." To be honest, Lokar just wasn't a very sympathetic character. He was a bit of a d!ck. I didn't like the guy. It's possible it was just the actor was miscast. This seemed like it would be a very good role for Christopher Judge of Stargate fame. He played almost this exact style of character for years and he nailed it. It's also possible it's just the way the character was written. He's unnecessarily yelling at the woman serving cupcakes. I don't know if that was meant to be humorous or not, but he just came off like a walking 6 foot dildo. He cares more about his experiment than the safety of the ship, when LaMarr wants to shut it down. He's showing up at his ex's cabin, when his ex clearly wanted nothing to do with him. What was the purpose of that? That's harassment. He's lying in wait in Talla's cabin without her permission. She's a total stranger. That was just creepy. The only reason it wasn't really creepy is because Talla could punt him and his testicles to the nearest star base without breaking a toenail. I felt they should've made him more sympathetic by making him more likable. If they had a sympathetic, likable character, who actually committed suicide, that to me would've been far more powerful. Even if the ending played out the same, this guy just didn't engender empathy from me. A more likable character would have.

I also wanted more of a mystery. They started the show off as if it were just another relationship episode, like we just had with Isaac. Then suddenly it turns into a murder investigation. Fine. Give me an actual investigation. Keep the audience in total darkness as to what's going on and slowly reveal it as Talla discovers it. Have Talla go over his personal logs so we can get into his head, leading up to his murder. Forensically search his quarters to find clues. Examine his background. Run simulations in the holodeck. I wanted something like what TNG's "Schisms" gave us with the holodeck scene where they were building the examination table. TNG was generally very good at this type of thing, like the poker scene in TNG's "Cause and Effect," where they discover they're in a time loop. I wanted them to show me Talla was a detective who could ferret out who dunnit. For me Alara would've worked much better in this episode. I have no affinity for Talla at all. Alara's love life troubles had already been explored and she is a very sympathetic and likable character. This would've worked perfectly for her. They could've had Lokar be a former unrequited love interest of Alara's, just two ships passing in the night without Alara knowing quite why. They could've set this up over several episodes with Alara, culminating in one final episode, like they did Finn and Isaac or Mercer and Teleya. This would have been more powerful, since Alara's feelings would've been deeper than having her just meet Lokar.

The problem is as I've said in the past The Orville isn't vehicle for that. They were never equipped to give me a TNG puzzle that could engender that feeling of mystery or suspense. They really don't have enough depth to pull off the story they were trying to tell. In any case, while the episode was watchable, I can't rate it higher than two and half stars max. It's not something I'm going to remember or look back fondly on. I might watch it again, but only if it's the only sci fi on television at the time.

@Charles J

There wasn't any clunky metaphors, despite Jack's claim. It's a sci fi show. That means sci fi is the vehicle that gets the ride along audience to the destination. The sci fi chosen for this particular episode was an exploration of a monosexual, repressed, alien culture. The whole purpose of this episode is NOT merely commentary on "bigotry, sexuality and gender." IMO the purpose of this episode is to reverse the situation so that the predominantly heterosexual audience can better empathize with victims of sexual bigotry. It's White Man's Burden or the defense's closing arguments in "A Time to Kill" for straight people. It's an exercise in what if THIS horrible thing happened to YOU or someone YOU care about. It's a worthwhile exercise.

They chose to tell the story through Talla's eyes for an obvious reason. She's the outsider looking in the window and wondering what the hell is going on in the living room. She's flabbergasted as to how something so natural as two heterosexual people getting together could blow up into such a tragedy. This is ostensibly the same position the majority of the viewers are in. These are the people authors want to clue in about what's going on. It's the same thing that TNG did with the J'naii in "The Outcast." That is also seen through mostly Riker's eyes. It's a viable method. If the target audience, straight people, presumably have much the same point of view as Talla, then you can use Talla's pov to lead that audience to a more clued in vantage point by the end of the episode. Or at least, that's the plan. The only other person who could possibly do this is Lokar, but he's not starting from the same vantage point as the audience. He's a total stranger already mired in the muck of his totally alien civilization, so that wouldn't work. Better to have a regular cast member, who was once peeping in the window, be sitting in the living room. She's still an outsider, but now much closer to the action.

As far as Talla lecturing Klyden, she was minding her own business, feeling crappy about the heavy guilt trip Lokar laid on her. This asshole, Klyden, intrudes on her personal reflection to offer his unsolicited gratitude. She tells him to stay the ?#&% away from her. She has every right to do that. He's an asshole. She clearly wants nothing to do with him. He should've recognized that and just walked away. That would be the end of it. Instead, this moron just has to know why. She simply tells him why he's an asshole that she wants nothing to do with. It is also her right to do just that. Since it seems the objective is to bring the viewer from the common point of view to a more empathetic vantage point, this makes perfect sense to me. Somebody has to explain to Klyden why he's an asshole. That someone has to actually have an effect on Klyden's mindset, so that he's left standing there looking and feeling like the asshole that he is. The person has to be heterosexual, because most of the intended audience is heterosexual, and the objective is to draw them down a path from the common position to a more empathetic position. There are only two heterosexual people in the entire episode who can possibly do that: Talla and Lokar. Clearly, Klyden is not going to give a damn about what Lokar says for obvious reasons. It can only be Talla. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the story in this particular aspect.
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Fri, Feb 15, 2019, 3:37pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Saints of Imperfection

Ok, Point of Light was a bad episode. I am still not happy with involving section 31 and re-involving the emperor. This episode was ok an view-able.

In fact I enjoyed it.

Basically one main Tilly theme and the continuous Angel Spock theme. For the story telling I also think it was wise to let Admiral Cornwell make the different methods same goal statement.

Mary Wiseman is a good actress but sometimes there are scenes that are catastrophic. I think that more due to that the directors wants to try to stretch her capabilities to the limit.

In this episode she was good and she managed to play a character who sometimes can be very chaotic and girly and direct switch to a focused and courageous person.

Generally this was a fairly well acted episode.

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Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 9:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon

@Jason R.

I didn't say you were talking about Riker. I'm explaining that, since Riker and anyone, but the target, were safe, he had any number of choices, which he intentionally abdicated BEFORE beaming down.

There is simply no excuse for not taking a full security detail down there. There's no excuse for not taking Data, who has superhuman speed down there. There's no excuse for not simply beaming her up instead of beaming down in the first place. There's no excuse for standing there looking retarded, instead of repeatedly stunning her to the ground, while advancing to a more secure location. There's no way to excuse what must have been Riker's decision BEFORE he beamed down. It's ridiculous to try.

I watched the episode a few hours ago. The guy was a murdering piece of crap, engaging in deadly raids that were ongoing, which is why the federation wanted to put a stop to it. What Riker did is akin to a prison guard killing another much less despicable inmate that he was romantically involved with, in order to protect Jeffrey Dahmer from being killed, when he had every opportunity to make another decision. You can't be as holier than thou as Star Trek sometimes attempts to make these characters out to be, while simultaneously making decisions like these. Your position is simply not credible. I'm glad you convinced yourself, cause you didn't convince anybody else.

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Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 3:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon

@Jason R. "It is a little muddier than you imply. Just her touch was deadly, so arguably, Riker could not risk her shrugging off the stun (which she already showed superhuman resistence to) long enough to lay a fingernail on this guy."

Actually, it's not. Dr. Crusher states out loud that it was specifically engineered to kill a certain family and that it's perfectly safe if you don't have that DNA pattern. Therefore, any one of the alternatives I suggested would've worked. She was no danger to Riker, he could've ran over there while she sank to her knee. No matter what anyone says. She's not about to shout, "this isn't even my final form!" and suddenly turn from a super assassin into a super duper assassin. In order for what we see on the screen to occur, Riker had to decide 1) he and he alone was going down to handle the situation and 2) he was going to kill her if she did not cease and desist her assassination attempt. That's assholery 101, considering she was only going after people who wiped out her family. And not only that, people who were still raiding and killing people to this day.

That wasn't aimed at you. Your objections have been measured and reasonable. Others on here and elsewhere are acting like Burnham is the scum of the earth. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
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Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 1:26am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon

I just find it interesting that people indict Burnham for killing T'Kuvma, but I didn't see anyone here mention what Riker did in "The Vengeance Factor." People actually defend his actions, saying he had no choice. These arguments fall flat on their face when we can watch the exact sequence of events and SEE that he had a choice.

He beams down and stuns one of the target's bodyguards. He's not much farther from the target than the assassin. Instead of advancing immediately, he simply stands there and points his phaser at her. Clearly, when he stuns her, she doubles over in severe pain and is knocked backwards a step. He stuns her again and she's not only knocked backwards a step, but she sinks to her knees, leaving him PLENTY of time to run over there and grab her or the target or at least position himself between them.

Riker just stands there. Had he kept stunning her repeatedly, while advancing, she would've been incapacitated long enough to reach her and physically stop her. He doesn't even make the attempt. Telling her target, "stay perfectly still," instead of "get the hell out of the way!" was incredibly stupid.

This is NOT debatable. The authors clearly mean for us to conclude Riker had no choice. However, that's NOT what's on the screen. What's shown is so demonstrably retarded it's ridiculous. Riker had numerous choices. 1) Beam down with a whole security detail. If one phaser hurt her enough to buckle her to her knees, 6 phasers on stun would've taken her down. 2) Fire on stun repeatedly and rapidly. 3) Bring Data, who can move at superhuman speed. 4) Beam down between the assassin and the target. 5) Advance immediately instead of standing there looking retarded. 6) Beam her ass up, instead of beaming down in the first place.

These are just some of the choices he had. I can only conclude he'd already decided to kill her, despite these obvious, numerous alternatives, if she refused to surrender, just like most police officers would today. Riker was not emotionally compromised, as Burnham was, by both her mentor and captain's death AND her prior history with the Klingons. There is simply no excuse for the ending of this episode, yet people defend it by and large. Go and watch it on daily motion and tell me that's not one of the most retarded endings of any TNG episode. Riker doesn't take any heat for this.

I understand that Burnham's actions had more ramifications, due to failing her mission to stop the war that the KLINGONS started. However, her actions are clearly emotionally compromised. And while she shouldn't get a pass I don't think she should be utterly vilified the way people are doing.
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Mon, Feb 11, 2019, 5:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon


The Klingons started the conflict when they attempted to kill her and she killed one of them in self-defense. She was attempting to stop the war with a Vulcan Hello. Would it have worked? Who knows? They quickly became outnumbered, so it's up in the air. It's a good bet standard Starfleet protocols wouldn't have fared any better. The Klingons were already gearing up for war.
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Sat, Feb 9, 2019, 6:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon

@Stargazer "You should think about the adjectives you use to describe things you dislike. There are thousands of words you can use that do not insult millions of people."

It took a moment for me to know wth you were talking about.

1) Be more specific.
2) I don't insult millions of people. Never in my life have I called a disabled person, moving at the speed god made them to move at, retarded. I reserve that word for people who somehow can't get up to the speed they were born for. If that's a problem for some folks, then that's their problem, not mine.
3) Manufactured outrage doesn't move me. Neither does politically "correct" propaganda.

@Stargazer "Look at the Rotten Tomatos score. Read the critics reviews. Look at the grades the AV Club, for example, gives. DSC at this point is the most critically succesful Star Trek show in history. More than TOS was. More than TNG was. And certainly far more than DS9 and VOY were. No other Trek series has been welcomed this positively by people who review television for a living and certainly know their stuff. Which makes the violent dislike from so-called Trek fans even more unbelievable."

No one should be looking at Rotten Tomatoes. That garbage is manipulated, bought and paid for propaganda. Nothing more unbelievable than that nonsense. People who need to be told first what to like, in order to give themselves permission to like it, then like Saru, they need to hurry up and have their ganglia fall off.
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Sat, Feb 9, 2019, 4:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon

Wow. This was terrible. The main idea was solid, but the execution after the sphere infects their universal translator was god awful. Discovery has always had problems with disjointed execution, but it got dialed up to 11 this episode.

And that whole plot with Tilly. God damn, please kill her ass off. I can't stand her, neither the actress, nor the character itself. If they wanted a quirky and discombobulated character they should've gotten someone like Carrie Preston from the Good Wife. I know she's older than Tilly's supposed to be, but the character could've been rewritten.

And enough with the environmentalism in space. That crap is putrid. The universe can't be that fragile or none of us would be here with neutron stars, supernova, black holes, quasars, dark energy, colliding galaxies, etc releasing metric f#&% tons of energy mankind could never hope to match. I. Simply. Do not. Believe. That. Bull$#!%. It was the same with the TNG anti-warp episode. Jesus Christ on a crucifix. It's just not credible.

That whole Tilly story arc with the dirty booger alien is rancid. And not just because it focuses so much screen time on Tilly. This episode could've been so good if they'd just focused on the alien sphere. It didn't need anything else. Certainly, not some stupid story line about booger extraterrestrials kidnapping annoying crew members. They keep trying to overload every single episode with, not just single stand alone plots, but multiple story arcs. With the sphere, Spock, and Saru, how the hell is that not enough? Why in god's name would you stuff yet another story ARC into this episode?

That whole scene with Burnham and Saru just went on and on so long that it became too maudlin; I wanted to blow my cookies all over my screen. I'm really glad they didn't kill off Saru, but there was no reason to make that scene that sappy if they weren't going to go through with it. It was over the top. Also, I'm not sure if I like the new development with Saru or not. It could go either way. It has plenty of potential, but I'm not confident that Discovery's writers and show runners can pull it off.

All these bridge crew characters are just place holders. They gave them more lines this episode than usual, but they've yet to give them all personalities. At this point, I'm not sure how they'd go about it. It's annoying when I hear them speak, because I know they're just cardboard cut outs that aren't likely to ever get developed. I don't even know or care to know any of their names. I thought the engineer from the asteroid was going to be good addition, but to bring her on just to out snark Stamets, as someone above pointed out, is retarded. One asshole character is enough. Stamets took a lot of last season to grow on me to where he completely fits on the show for me. Who needs two assholes in your show? That's like bringing in another Dr. McCoy to insult Spock or, another Pulaski to talk crap about Data.

I know all Treks start off slow and cumbersome, but there should be some signs of Discovery's cast hitting it's stride. Everybody looked like amateurs this episode. I'm a fan of Discovery, but this was a set back for me.
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Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 3:20pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon

Ok, good. Except for the major two parallel lines. Tilly line and the rest. It somehow felt like an original TOS. I men finding a strange intelligence, communicating instead of shooting? And to be honest , except a very special nostalgia factor, they was not always that good.

Still there are to many extra characters. Number one, Reno, Nhan and Linus the fish who we learnt is a saurian. To many but when the lower deck episode comes i look forward to met the able starman Mario solving problems within the pipes and plumbing area.

I liked the Burnham and Saru scenes. And Saru (with hid ganglia) was a very interesting character. I am not sure that removing them will be a gain.
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Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 10:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: A Happy Refrain


1) But it's ALWAYS a practical element with women in regards to their children. Claire made the same practical considerations, when she saw how her kids responded to Isaac. ONLY THEN does she go on to have other more tender emotions about it, which are a luxury Sarah Connor doesn't have, due to the extreme nature of her situation. If you read my posts, I'm talking about Isaac fulfilling the role of being a father figure for Claire's children FIRST. That is necessarily a practical consideration. Then comes the other stuff. Clearly, Claire is not in an extreme situation. She's free to indulge all of her emotions. And in fact, a woman's emotions are indeed practical in an evolutionary context. Their purpose is to bind women to suitable mates. There's literally NOTHING flowery about women's emotions when you analyze their true purpose.

2) Sarah Connor is a special case. She's not feeling tender emotions for anybody, not since Kyle Reece died. Every choice she made afterwards was not only for John, but the future of the human race. She buried her emotions in T2 because she thought it made her stronger. It didn't; it made her unstable. If Sarah Connor were not in an extreme situation (running for her life, future of the human race hanging in the balance, hunted by nigh unstoppable machines, mourning the love of her life, fearing the future of her son, etc), you can bet your sweet ass that she'd be indulging her emotions. Maybe not with Ahhhnold, but certainly with somebody. And since people anthropomorphize everything, Cyber Arnold would have as good a chance as the next man in a normal situation, like when she was waitress Sarah, instead of warrior Sarah.

3) Yes, I do count the protective emotions she feels towards John. They're the same emotions 99.99% of all women feel, especially in extreme situations, so there's no reason to discount them. Also, it's erroneous that she's operating on pure logic. Through that whole movie she's living on the edge of an emotional breakdown. We see desperation right when she's introduced in the mental ward and she's pleading for release. We see panic when she first catches sight of the T-800. We see overwhelming fear when she's chastising John, whom she hasn't seen in years, about risking everything coming to save her. When she's watching her son with the machine, there's definite emotion there. It's subdued. It's buried. But it's definitely there.

Finally, she knows her son is secure. Finally she knows he has the perfect protection, better than she herself could provide. Her ever present fear is eased. She's relieved. She can finally leave him in someone else's care and focus on the desperation that's been driving her for more than a decade. We then see her losing her shit when she goes to assassinate Dyson. She has a total emotional breakdown. There's no way in hell she was operating on pure logic AT ANY POINT in that movie. Saying she's operating on pure logic at any time, is like saying Sandra Bullock's character in Bird Box ****SPOILER*** is operating on a pure logic when she refuses to even name her children and treats them more like military recruits than kids. Such behavior is pragmatic, certainly given the circumstances, but there's an omnipresent undercurrent of fear guiding everything she does.

4) In order to claim their family at the end of T2 is based solely on necessity, you'd have to totally ignore how John feels at the end of that movie. He's completely anthropomorphized the T-800. As far as John is concerned, he's the father he never had. If it was possible for John to do so, due to his being a child with inescapable emotional needs, then it would be possible for Sarah to do so, if only she didn't have all that baggage concerning lost loves and murderous machines informing her every action. Guess what? Claire doesn't have any of that.

5) And no we don't need to ground anything. They've been setting up this episode since the shuttle crash last season. That's enough grounding. You're watching the wrong show if you want some deep romantic character development beyond what they've shown. At its heart, The Orville is a comedy. This episode was a rom com whether anyone wants it to be or not. They were never going to give you what you're asking for. People keep reacting to the Orville like it's Trek. It's not Trek. It's not ever going to be as deep as Trek at it's best. (Not that Trek was ever any good at romance anyway.) It's become fashionable for haters of Discovery to claim The Orville is the only real Trek on television right now, but those people don't know what they're talking about. If people stop expecting sudden onset Trek and just watch The Orville for what it actually is, they'll enjoy it a lot more.

I really can't understand why people insist on something The Orville isn't even equipped for. If you want a deep exploration of human - A.I. interaction there are much better shows for this: such as Travelers, Humans, Westworld, Person of Interest, and Battlestar Galactica, just to name a few.

Apologies for the Great Wall of Text.
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Tue, Feb 5, 2019, 7:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: A Happy Refrain


I think we have a clear difference of expectations. I'm not looking for any deep exploration of A.I. from the Orville. It's the wrong show for that. I got that exploration from TNG, Voyager, and recently Travelers. There are so many good shows in that regard, I certainly wouldn't be looking to the Orville for such an exploration.

Recalling his other work, I wouldn't expect Seth to be capable of such an exploration anyway, no matter how much of a Trek fan he is. We can tell he's not thinking too deeply on the subject, when Seth literally pirates TNG's concept of friendship from Data's perspective, when he has Mercer say, "Your various programs are used to her and, it turns out, she's not so easy to just... delete" to explain Isaac's anomalous behavior.

I was simply taking what the Orville is giving us at face value. Isaac is depicted as sapient, at least somewhat creative, capable and competent at many things, but inept at human relations. They show Isaac as unintentionally fulfilling the role of surrogate dad and companion. I'm actually looking at things entirely from Claire's perspective, not Isaac's.

Recall Terminator 2 and the scene where Sarah Connor is reflecting on The T-800's relationship with her son. She says, "Watching John with the machine, it was suddenly so clear. The Terminator would never stop, it would never leave him. And it would never hurt him, never shout at him or get drunk and hit him or say it was too busy to spend time with him. It would always be there and it would die to protect him. Of all the would-be fathers who came and went over the years, this thing, this machine was the only one who measured up. In an insane world, it was the sanest choice."

This is what I'm talking about in regards to Isaac being a father figure for Claire's children. The T-800 isn't even sapient, like Isaac is, at this point in the movie. He's just a very sophisticated robot, yet Sarah Connor vocalizes almost exactly what I think Claire's conclusion would be with regards to Isaac and her children. And although Sarah wouldn't be the type of woman to jump Isaac's undercarriage, due to her history, it's really not that far of a distance from this mindset to Claire's under more pleasant circumstances.
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Tue, Feb 5, 2019, 11:53am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: A Happy Refrain

"But her desire to pursue a relationship with someone who she knows will never be attracted to her (as he's both asexual and aromantic) is a contrivance, and should have been scrutinized more. "

Really?!? Some women in real life are known to sometimes pursue relationships with gay men. How is it contrived at all that a lonely woman might pursue a relationship with a full fledged battery operated boyfriend, who actually walks, talks, and takes care of your kids?

I think both you and Jammer are giving the human race too much credit. Lonely people will form attachments to almost anything. Give them something that walks and talks and it's a whole new ball game.

We know for a fact that lonely men will sometimes form very deep attachments to sex dolls, which cost sometimes tens of thousands of dollars. I think you're having trouble with the notion that women, given a close enough facsimile, would exhibit similar behaviors.

Just look at the relationship objectively. Isaac has been fulfilling the role of surrogate father and companion since that shuttle crash. In that very first episode Claire is shown struggling to control and relate to her kids. Isaac steps in and handles it smoothly and swiftly. From that moment on her kids take to Isaac like the father they never had. Claire cannot possibly fail to witness that as a mother who loves her children. It would be impossible for any woman to not feel endearment towards a walking talking being who was able to provide her children with what she never could.

It isn't far fetched at all that she could've in her own mind built upon that endearment and become romantically attracted to Isaac. Lonely people do it all the time. They fall in love with that Nigerian Prince who shows up nowhere but emails and always needs money. They fall in love with that voice on the phone that they've never met, last name Fish, first name Cat. And guess what, these people I just described are getting a helluva lot less from the people they're romantically infatuated with than Claire was getting from Isaac.

And don't pretend that since Claire seems like she's got it all together she certainly wouldn't be engaged in activities like that or be subject to emotions in that manner. That's silly. In real life, we've had multiple presidents, CEOs, senators, etc caught with their pants down, engaging with much more ridiculous activities than any shown on this show. Congressman sending dick pics. Presidents who "grab 'em by the p*$$y." We had two Michigan State Representatives Todd Courser and Cindy Gamrat, having an affair with each other that ultimately lead to their ejection from the Statehouse. So Claire being otherwise well put together is COMPLETELY irrelevant. The woman was lonely. She's a single mother. She was at her wits end with her two fatherless sons. Then Isaac comes along and gives her children what she never could. Would every woman respond romantically to that? Of course not. Would some women respond romantically to that? You bet your sweet ass. And many of those will be lonely ass women, otherwise reasonable, maybe even the wisest people you know, who nevertheless would jump right on Isaac's holographic Johnson.
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Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 7:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light


"It's a shame that it's been hijacked by people pissing all over a great, modern show because it's not white enough, not male enough and not slow enough for them, as it was in 1986."

Although belonging to the generation who grew up with TOS I do not mind the diversity (except the fish an the other Star wars characters on the bridge that used to work on bars in Star Wars).

They rather it open up possibilities. But these possibilities was not used here. But a lot of these old traditionalist seems also like me to miss the old art of the story telling.

Even if story telling today seems to be much more complex, this episode was a mess. I also more or less liked the episodes 3 - 9 and the two last. The mirror universe was "to much".

The way violence is showed nowadays is completely different. I also really hope and believe that a 7-8 year old child have another perception towards cut of heads than I had in my TV childhood.

But such scenes are not necessary.

I would prefer a long theme but back to the more anthology like episodes.

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Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 2:54am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

This was not good. I agree with most of the commentators so far. Last episode was very refreshing this was just confusing and boring. I count to 5 different themes Burnham-Red-Angel-Spock / Bridge crew /Tilly /Klingon / Georgiou Section 31. The character Amanda is interesting and I like her. The Tilly story is just confusing. The return of the Emperor in section 31. The Bridge crew scenes where well played. But please remove the fish from the disc(h/o). The Klingon intrigue is also very inconsistent and strange. To many ingredients.
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Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 12:31am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: New Eden

Booming said: "And reducing women to their looks is a misogynistic behavior."

Clearly, this is nonsense.

Gil said:
"I don’t particularly find a neurotic, chubby chick floundering about habitually breaking protocol, disregarding orders and generally making an ass of herself either endearing or amusing. Remember Barclay?"

Gil gives a five part description of the Tilly character, which is pretty accurate. No one has been reduced to looks. Chubbiness was simply mentioned along with four other character qualities. And in the next breath he mentions Barclay in the same vein. Barclay has all of those qualities he finds annoying, except chubbiness. That totally torpedoes this nonsensical, half-ass "misogyny" argument.
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Fri, Feb 1, 2019, 3:27pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: A Happy Refrain

Now that was lovely! From last week's preview, I was worried we'd get a retread of "In Theory," and while it kind of was in its broad strokes (artificial lifeform tries dating and relationships with a human), it had such an endearing sweetness that I found it impossible to resist. It made all the difference that the seeds of Claire and Isaac's relationship were planted in "Into the Fold" and "Ja'loja." Also that it's two leads dating, rather than Data and a guest star who we knew would be gone next week.

"The episode's piano performance and live orchestral show... reveals Seth MacFarlane as not only a TNG fanboy, but giant romantic at heart. The longings, romances and broken hearts in this show are much criticized, but IMO they don't feel like cliches, but something personal."

Nailed it! If there's a dominant theme in the Orville, it's not exploration of space and the human condition like Star Trek, it's the complexity of dating and romantic relationships. This has been a consistent thread throughout the series that has touched every character: Ed/Kelly, Bortus/Klyden, Claire/Isaac, even Alara and Gordon have been on dates and John's role as Official Love Advisor. This episode, more than any other, clarifies this theme and resonates with previous episodes like "Ja'loja," which I also loved because it was about character and relationships. If the Orville evolves into a giant rom-com in space, I'd be totally on board. Trek gave us plenty of science, adventure, action, politics, exploration, etc. Let the Orville do a different take on the format.

I've also found that the Orville is a great audience show. Trek is fun to watch with people, but I find that we usually just sit there in respectful silence. With the Orville, the group I watch with, which is a mix of Trekkies and non-Trekkies, is constantly laughing, commenting, talking back to the screen, and just having a blast. This episode was a real winner in that regard. And it was our resident non-Trekkie who was most on board with the romance and excited at every turn it took.

My favorite episode of the series so far. Loved it top to bottom, from the silly B-plot about Bortus' moustache to the sweeping camera moves during the orchestral performance to the corny but completely earnest and sincere starry-eyed tone.

As every new piece of news about Star Trek just makes me cringe (a Section 31 show!! gritty gore and violence!!), I'll take a cheesy romantic ending where a woman and robot kiss to "Singin' in the Rain" any day.
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Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: A Happy Refrain

Eh. Reminded me of some of the poorer quality TNG/DS9 episodes. In a way, that may ultimately be a good sign, however I hope the show cools it a bit with the episodes focused mainly on romance or past relationships or what have you.
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