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Debra Petersen
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: Afterimage

I never went for Worf and Jadzia as a couple in the first place. He often seemed too controlling toward her, until she would assert herself and he would grudgingly back down. I always thought it was Julian that Jadzia really belonged with, that he was the one who truly cared about her the most. But she never really gave him a chance. It was a little startling to hear Ezri tell Julian that if Worf hadn't come along it would have been him. She apparently hoped that would make him feel better somehow, but the actual effect was just the opposite. The idea that it COULD HAVE BEEN, but wasn't, was clearly hard for him to take. Worf was cruel in telling Ezri he didn't want to know her. And the way he threated Julian for even talking to Ezri was way over the line.
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Peter Swinkels
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

Alright, my previous comment was made 13 minutes into the episode. It actually went from braindead to fairly decent.

This series all over the map with regard to quality.
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Peter Swinkels
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 3:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

The creators: “loookit we gots purrty lights and flashy thingies! durr... what’s a script?”
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Peter G,
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@ Chrome,

""I seem to remember that in Q Who the Enterprise was tossed to Beta"

Nope."

Huh. I went back and checked, and right you are. Scratch that, then!
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Peter G.
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 12:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@ axiom,

"To reiterate, for what I hope to be the final time, my critique is not that we must avoid criticism of the ways in which Michael's character has been written, simply on the basis of race or gender or poltiical climate. What I am naming here is what I see to represent an unhelpful (and at times thoroughly anti-intellectual and toxic) mode of critique which has pervaded this forum, and many other places of discussion, since DIS was aired."

As someone who hasn't posted about the episodes in DSC season 2 but have read them all, I can't see what you claim is happening. The posters have gotten into many arguments about form, but in terms of the actual critique or praise of the episodes I find that the vast majority of posts have been fairly neutral in terms of including anything inflammatory. While I wish those on each side of the debate could get along better, I see almost no signs of toxic (i.e. racist, sexist, or even very rude) commentary about Burnham's character. I do see a lot of discussion *about* racism and sexism, but very little in the way of maligning her for being a woman, being of color, or for any other attributes than her performance. To the extent that people complain about the writing of Burnham this has nothing at all to do with SMG. I'm reminded of some discussions in the past where criticisms of the inconsistent writing of Captain Janeway were often taken of criticisms of her personally. Not the same thing.

Is it possible you've seen so much toxic commentary elsewhere that you're carrying over your sense of it from those sites to this one? I don't really see it here. Actually there are some far more toxic posts in the posts on other series at times, compared with those for DSC (for instance arguments about liberal vs conservative values and which can be more readily found in Trek).

I tent to agree with others that overall the quality of the posting on Jammer's site is pretty darn good, with the occasional crossing a line.
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Peter G.
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:43am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@ Chrome,

"Pretty sure the Borg come from the Delta Quadrant, and from the 15th century, no less."

If I'm not mistaken they're also in the Beta Quardrant. I seem to remember that in Q Who the Enterprise was tossed to Beta, not Delta. I know that in VOY they specified that the Borg's 'home base' or whatever is in the Delta, but they seem to have ships in the Beta quadrant as well (whereas, by contrast, they seem to be completely absent from the Alpha and Gamma).
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Peter G.
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Jason R. and Booming,

Indeed, there may be global forces at work badly educating people (if that's a factor). Just to be clear, by "education" I don't mean expertise in some field, but rather how one values others as worthy in themselves. In other words, we might call it social education, as opposed to technical education. And yes, I would completely expect there to be no difference in India or China; in fact I would expect it to be exacerbated there compared to North America, where mindsets are very much geared towards having to fend off others trying to take advantage of you.

@ Booming,

Yes there's an emotional component for sure, but part of that is a rational problem as well, because while it's true that we're goint to react instinctively all things being equal, I don't believe it has to be this way. But that is something that 'education' would have to overcome. Right now it seems it doesn't, and seems rather to incentivize bolstering one's own side. Socrates seems to have doggedly assigned himself the task of exploring the opinions of others, and yes, I do think this is a task that requires assigning; it won't come naturally.
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Peter G.
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 1:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Jason R.,

I wonder if whether, in a long-term fashion, we may see a link betwene these sorts of results, and cultural context. For instance, if a culture has as it's M.O. that you need to be right about everything, that others are there just to obstruct you, and that 'the other side' needs to always be either beaten or converted, then instead the mental heuristics would be well-trained to always bolster your own side, as the currency in play to reward helping the other wise would be minimal. And I think Socrates was even in some sense investigating whether the inability to care about the other side's argument is endemic, or the result of bad education and upbringing. I couldn't guess which it is, but I'm not at all convinced that what the studies you mention describe is something true of "people", or rather something true of badly educated people. I wonder whether it's because we are actually really bad at forming counter-arguments to our own positions, or whether we just don't care to because it seems like there's nothing in it for us to do so. As an excercise in imagination, seeing the other side equally to your own requires training and experience, like anything else. Professional actors have to do this as a matter of course; but does anyone else?
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Peter G.
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S7: Q2

"There are good Q episodes, bad ones, and this ugly one."

This was indeed a fistful of stupid.
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Peter G.
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 3:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Jackson,

If the episode had been about determining whether Tuvix was of sound mind then at least that debate would have been on the table. It would be something, and points could be raised on both sides of it.

Not sure why it's so important to create reasons why Tuvix either (a) isn't a real person, or (b) is insane or mentally incompetent, or (c) never 'really' existed. All of these seem to be refuted by the fact that Janway let this person conduct the duties of the Starfleet officer. If she let someone mentally incompetent do that then she would have to be even more incompetent!
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Peter G.
Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 11:57am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Jackson,

While we can easily reconize that this episode generates a lot of debate and disagreement (which is neat), I would personally suggest you think for a long time about the example you just proposed of Tuvorchid. What is a new life form? Should a unique and never-before-seen strange thing be given respect? TNG dealt with issues like this all the time, and that's where I think we need to look regarding an issue like this.

There's no question that choosing to not get Neelix and Tuvok back would be a big deal, and would require careful consideration. And that would have to be weighed against what the nature is of this new creature; what it's like, what it wants and needs, whether it's a unique new life form or species (Talaxian/Vulcan hybrid would indeed be a new species), and all the other questions. Think a lot about Tuvorchid, and about how to determine whether it/he has rights.
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 10:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

@ Jackson,

"Say it didn't involve Tuvok and Neelix, but just a redshirt and a yellowshirt pair of volunteers who consented to the experiment, on the assumption that they would be restored to their individual selves after temporarily becoming an orange shirt for science.

But then Orangeshirt says...hey I want to stick around as Orangeshirt, and you're a murderer if you don't let me.

What then?"

Then the [brave yet dumb] crew would realize that their ill-thought out science experiment created a new life that they had no right to extinguish in order to reset back to the situation they wanted. The proof is in the pudding: if no one died, then who was the one asking not to be killed? If Neelix and Tuvok were "still both there", then why did they seemingly behave very differently than either one would have when separate?

Note that as sci-fi premises go, it would be far goofier than what we're actually shown if you were to assume that Neelix and Tuvok are in there all along, just smooshed together, because then you'd need to begin to parse out "which one of them said that line" and have a weird schizophrenic thing going on. But if Tuvix was one person with different attitudes than either of them, none of which could be attributed to either one, then ergo his lines did not originate from them from but him.

If you suppose that their DNA, mixed together, doesn't form a new person, you'd most likely have to also conclude that when two parents have a child it's really both parents "still in there" and there's no new person. The catch, if the sci-fi premise gives us one, is that Tuvix retains the memories of both, and in terms of goofiness this is the one absurd premise in the show, even by Trek standards.
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Peter Swinkels
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 2:41pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

Either I am becoming an old and senile fart who simply is unable to see his own shortcomings and blames his inability to comprehend on others ... OR: this witless dreck that dares to even hint at pretending to a continuation of Star Trek is an utterly unsalvageable mess of ideas even more convoluted than the worst previous incarnations had to offer. Yes it’s pretty to look at and distracts for an hour. If that’s it’s purpose it succeeded with flying colors. -10/10 or 10/10? Take your pick.
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Debra Petersen
Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 8:23pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: Is There In Truth No Beauty?

Just finished watching this one again on H&I and I have to agree that it's better than 2 stars. I'd give it 3. The scene where Spock and Kollos have melded is worth an extra star in itself, for Nimoy's performance and for the aptness of the literary allusions. The look on Spock's face when he backs out from behind the barrier after seeing Kollos without the protective visor is just remarkable. And the way Kirk forces Miranda to confront the ugliness of her jealousy is pretty impressive too. I've always appreciated Diana Muldaur as an actress, and she does a fine job here.
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Peter G.
Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 12:41am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Alan Roi,

Funny enough, you could have substituted all instances of "this show" and "Discovery" in your post with "Donald Trump", and your point would be made loud and clear. Are you sure you like your argument there?
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Peter G.
Thu, Apr 11, 2019, 1:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Through the Valley of Shadows

@ Glom,

"if only you knew more about Roddenberry, for example the way he enriched himself by screwing over Alexander Courage."

Are you talking about the royalty thing that was defined in their contract? (I just looked it up)
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Peter G.
Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 3:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: The Muse

@ Chrome,

Exactly, that's the question. I think the issue of "what's become of the Jake character" was one ripe for the picking. Instead of exploring what becomes of a character defined as being the lead's son, when 'being a kid' ceases to be a plausible storyline, the question becomes - just as it does in a real person's life - who is this person now, and what are they supposed to do? The Trek crews have always been Starfleet, so to have a regular who's human but not Starfleet, nor a wunderkind like Wesley, begs the question of what such a person should be spending his time doing.

Focusing on Jake as a writer/artist could have easily doubled as focusing on him as a character with no arc or story, because in both cases (either artist, or character with no arc) the person in question is lacking any context or set place within the society of the show. He's there, but has no defined role, no end point or clear victory condition on his activities, and basically has to begin to self-define with no social structure to guide his choices. The artist/lost character connection seems to me worthy of at least one entire episode to plumb out. So yeah, it's sad in hindsight that it was minimized into a 20 minute outer limits episode instead of a reach search for who Jake is anymore. Instead he ends up being, alternatively, a foil for Nog who actually found a purpose, or else a foil for those in Starfleet (by being annoying, while they are pursuing noble things). By S7 his presence was long gone and it was probably a 'family matter' that he was even kept in the main credits. It didn't have to be like that!
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Peter G.
Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 11:30am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: The Muse

@ Chrome,

At the risk of bludgeoning a horse that has already trotted out:

"Indeed many of my friends who were art majors went on to have good careers in offices they enjoy and still work on their art as a private enterprise during their personal time."

In the arts there's sort of a few tiers of 'trying' to be an artist, and passing through these is actually one of the major difficulties. Tier 1, if I can call it that, is studying to be an artist, which many (many!) people do. Most don't go any futher than that when they either realize that it's not for them or that they're content with it being a hobby rather than a career. Tier 2 is when you make a go of it in the field, either working for free for a long time while doing a day job, or perhaps struggling with doing the odd gig while sharing a flat roommates or else working part time out of your field. The stereotype thing for those in the performing arts is the waiting/bartending job to pay the bills while you do your art for free or minimal amounts, for many years. Tier 2 can last the rest of your life, or alternatively become tiresome and get you to quit eventually. It's mostly demarcated by the idea that this is a all 'worth it' because it might materialize into a full career enentually. No artist ought to ever assume that there will be a tier 3, if they're being rational. Tier 3, of course, is having either a regular gig, or else at least having enough money coming in from various projects to mostly not have to do an unrelated job.

To connect this back to your anecdote, the tier 1 people are quite numerous, and it's no surprise that they can eventually end up in satisfying work, having finally decided that art shouldn't be a career since they want stability in their lives. Tier 2 is the 'pain zone', which can range anywhere from the starving artist to decently well-paid restaurant or bar work while trying to make it as a performer; and for the other arts (writing, painting, etc) I have less experience knowing numerous artists of this type but I imagine it's much the same in terms of side jobs typically taken.

"So, I think the artist who sacrifices everything including livelihood, like Jake is doing metaphorically here, is a wee bit of romanticism."

It's really not, but only contingent of how dedicated the artist is to being an artists professionally. The more an artist would be content doing something else, the more likely they will go and do that when the money from art isn't happening. The most driven artists will keep it going regardless of consequence, for better or worse. Singers have certain niches, such as choir gigs, the odd recording, singing lessons, and other small pieces to put together to cobble a meagre living, while hoping for a bigger gig. For writers I imagine they do all sorts of freelance work (like Jake with his journalism) trying to eventually get into what they really like. But basically, yes, a lot of the time it means signing on to a life of never knowing if the rent will be paid next month. Getting a full-time paying job takes away the stability issue a bit, but also the ability to have enough time to be good enough at your craft to compete with others (unless you're an amazing genius). Giving with the one hand always means taking away with the other. It's rough, man.
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 2:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: The Jem'Hadar

@ Tim,

Fair points. Consider, though, the comparison between what you're saying and Chain of Command. We're supposed to be siding with Riker (although in large part I don't) when he's outraged that nothing will be done for Captain Picard. When we see him being tortured, we no doubt nurture the fantasy of the Enterprise coming in and kicking these guys' butts and getting our hero out of there. In fact, Jellico takes the approach that you espouse, which is that Picard isn't worth an all-out confrontation and that nothing can be done for him at that point. And I know that when we hear this we're supposed to be very upset at it. Well in this episode we get the response the fans would want: go in and save our hero, because some bullies aren't going to get away with acting like barbarians. In the case of Chain of Command, Jellico does in fact do something for Picard, that does require a show of force first, but also involves his tactic of circling the enemy like a wolf for a while first, looking for weakness. In this episode there isn't a detente that can be used to buy time, and so if at all a rescue mission would have to be more hasty. Granted, that's tactically worse, but in practice not much different.

You may also note that the moment they have Sisko and the others they turn tail to leave, not stopping to even calculate whether the battle can be won. This is a bit of a slippy point, because in fact we know the battle couldn't have been won. However my belief is that the Odyssey would have left either way once Sisko was rescued, and abolutely would not have stuck around fighting enemy ships just for the pleasure of 'defeating them' in a battle. I'm pretty sure the tone and teleplay suggest it was a rescue mission and never anything else, using a powerful starship to command respect and if at all possible to avoid conflict. But it's true they were not going to back down and risk Sisco without at least trying to go in after him. Isn't that honorable? It was a mission of mercy, in contrast to the B5 example, where the attack by the humans was purely a result of trying to show some aliens who's boss. That by sending the Odyssey the Federation also showed teeth is only common sense as far as I'm concerned.
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 2:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: The Muse

@ William B,

No apology necessary, to me at least. I had hoped I didn't upset you, but I wasn't personally offended by what you wrote.

I hope you find some peace in your work, and to see you back here sometime. Our conversations here have been among the most enjoyable I've had on any forum. Be well!
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 2:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: The Thaw

Hahaha, Elliott, we have never been in more agreement. This was a 4-star episode from the moment it aired when I fell off my couch laughing during it. I'll never forget that. The Trek-fu futulity is one of the best lampoons of Trek hand combat I've ever seen. Along with Scorpion and The Meld I'd call this the best episode in the series.
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 2:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: The Jem'Hadar

@ Tim,

It's funny, because reading (and watching) that scene, I don't at all come away from it thinking "these guys are looking for a fight". They are going in from a position of strength, which is the only reasonable thing to do in order to establish that you're to be taken seriously. Even in the real world there has never been any misconception that in dealing with another empire you're dealing with 'nice guys' who will respect your puny ship and ambassadors, etc. The respect comes from a show of force that you can't be trifled with. If you *can* be trifled with then you will get messed pretty bad no matter how you make first contact.

I like your Minbari reference, actually, because the main feature of first contact with them was (a) the humans firing first, and (b) the strange Minbari refusal to ever learn anything about humans despite having the chance. So the fault lay on both sides to an extent; more so on the Minbari because they should have known better than to frighten a younger race with a show of open gunports. But in terms of the humans, we are also led to know there that Earthforce at that time was becoming aggressively expansionist, and that their own pride was the cause of their ultimate fall. They knew nothing, and thought they could do anything.

Not so for the Odyssey, who generally had a fairly decent idea of the relative strength of other spacefaring races, and who also knew they were potentially going into a warzone depending on the disposition of the Dominion. And if you carefully parse the dialogue above, Dax refers to a rescue operation, which doesn't at all have to mean an attack, and in fact likely wouldn't mean that ideally. Keogh in turns mentions combat experience, which is of course relevant since combat might result, but also doesn't mean it's a combat mission. The one thing selling the idea that it might be a combative sort of mission is Keogh's cavalier attitude, but honestly (as I mentioned earlier in the thread) I think this is mostly meant to illustrate the Federation's assumption that they can deal with any threat out there, which to date has been (more or less) accurate. But if there's a flaw to be found here it's in the lack of awareness that any new race could be another Borg, and so Q's warning is perhaps not taken as seriously as it should be by Starfleet as a whole. And I would wholeheartedly agree that this mission was a mistake, and that the Federation was in over its head thinking it had the matter well in hand. I think that's basically the point of the episode, actually. What they're wrong about is in having too much confidence that they'll be taken seriously. But about it being too much of an aggressive mission in its very nature - that I don't really buy. If it had been a Federation Captain captured in the Romulan neutral zone this would have been a perfectly reasonable response to it.
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 1:56pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: The Muse

@ Elliott,

I think it's totally fair to divide art as a career versus art as an actual practice, in terms of what sorts of expectations or necessities it has. I don't necessarily agree with you that an artists needs to be actually suffering in order to create worthy material, but there does have to be *something* in the artists clamoring to get out, driving you to do the thing. I don't know that this 'thing' must be suffering, but either way it must drive the creator strongly. I was more addressing art as a career, in terms of the expectation of the "starving artist" as a basic framework that any artist has to be willing to accept. In context of The Muse it may well be closer to the mark to discuss the 'suffering for art' side of it since it's the actual creation that drains Jake's life. But still, I wonder whether that draining effect is very clearly meant to portray the need he had for pain in order to create, or rather to generally show that the creation process is painful for perhaps numerous reasons, which can include personal suffering in order to fuel the work, but also the pain of knowing you'll probably fail, the pain of knowing you'll never be a 'normal' member of society in some sense, and the pain of knowing that what you do isn't even generally respected for the most part, *unless you get famous*, in which case suddenly everyone wants to know your story. J.D. Salinger, just to keep the comparison with Jake, only gets to be a 'mysterious recluse' because of fame; without the fame he's a 'lonely guy who goes unnoticed'.

So I wasn't exactly trying to pinpoint the precise aspect of art that probably means you'll be suffering for it, but I grant you that there's an argument to be made that *perhaps* it takes an atmosphere of suffering to create the greatest art (like the Ancient Greeks). I don't think suffering is what's lacking in many environments today where arts has trouble finding its footing; more often than that I think it's the lack of infrastrucutre, support networks, people who care, and especially lack of a supportive community to feed off of each other and get much better so that the public really enjoys what's being done. The big thing now is very mediocre work (even at high levels), which ends up turning off the public and making it even harder on everyone. I'm getting into the weeds, but my main point was to talk about how I don't think it's like other careers for multiple reasons, which certainly can include (and in some cases can even center on) the one you mention.
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 12:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: The Muse

@ William B,

Sorry if I made it sound like only artists suffer or something. That's not what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is that artists literally sign up for a life of suffering. Anyone, in any field, can fail and end up jobless, of course. Anyone, in any field, can have major setbacks and failures. During the Great Depression people in finance jumped off of buildings during the crash. But what I'm talking about is *going into your field* knowing that you will inevitably be struggling for much of or all of your life, unless you are very lucky. I'm not talking about a reversal of fortune, or difficulties in the job, which of course any field can result in.

As for office work, you are arguing that people who desperately want to be office workers go through years of not being able to get an office job in the vain hopes that one day they'll work in a real life office and earn a modest wage? Realistically I could see this scenario during (again) the Great Depression, but now? And I have to say that, knowing a fair amount of people in math and science, I don't think it's the norm, and certainly not the basic expectation of day-to-day work, that you go home every day thinking you may be wasting your life and will never achieve anything. When I make this type of statement I cannot of course be saying that this happens to no one (as anyone in any field can go through this), but I'm talking about the knowledge before you even try to enter the field that it will inevitably be like this even if things go well. That is absolutely not normal in scientific fields, or most other professional jobs I know of. Granted, there is probably a sliding scale of jobs that are more stressful than others, with certain ones having a high suicide rate and so forth. But that is still not the same as entering a 'field' (and I put it in quotes on purpose) where there isn't really even infrastructure for it to be a career except for some few people. The rest is either gigging and scraping by, or else doing your art and supporting it with an unrelated job. Can you imagine a person so dedicated to physics that he worked a 40 hour job in order to have the opportunity to volunteer for another 40 hours at the lab and do lab work, hoping to maybe one day be a lab assistant or lab tech?

But I take your point about not dismissing the pain of other career paths, and in fact I tried to incorporate in my post the point that Jake and a Starfleet officer might be making a similar type of sacrifice in a way, but the big difference being that the Starfleet career has a massive infrastructure around it, whereas the artist is typically all alone.

Also, sorry to hear you went through all that. I went through some pretty bad times myself struggling to decide whether I wanted to go into physics (I switched into music instead), and basically had two years of doing what I felt like was pointless and burdensome work that seemed to increasingly prove I was doing the wrong thing and wasting my time. However in my case it was a career path question, which to be fair can be pervasive and last a person's entire life these days. So perhaps it might be fair to say that for an artist one's entire life is a career path crisis, where the 'staying on track' artist track can feel much like a very protracted catastrophic failure state. I never intend to dimish anyone's bad experience, so sorry if it came off that way.
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Peter G.
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 11:58am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: The Jem'Hadar

@ Tim,

"The point I'm making is that the Federation had no way of knowing they were dealing with an intractable enemy hell-bent on conquest during the events of this episode. What "actionable intelligence" does Keogh take with him on his mission? "

Keogh had little to no information at that point, which is why a Galaxy class ship was sent to (a) talk to the Dominion, and (b) get Sisko back. Although the first encounter with the Dominion by the Odyssey immediately erupts into a fight, it's not clear to me that their mission to was to go and fight the Dominion. Picard and the Enterprise went to the neutral zone many times with intentions other than to battle the Romulans. But the important thing to note (made clear in several TNG episodes) is that the Romulans had ever pulled the trigger and crossed the line Picard would have attacked immediately. There was never a pretense in those episodes that Picard was going to avoid battle at all costs. Sure, he tried to avoid it, but was never going to hesitate if the Rolumans blinked. Likewise here, battle erupted mainly because the Dominion wanted to teach them a lesson, not because the Odyssey was being overly aggressive. And IMO from the momet the Dominion decided to blow up a fleeing Odyssey suicide-style just to make a point, the point should be taken by the viewer as well: there will be no bargaining with them, no discussion, and no chance for using the threat of force to make a treaty.

You can make the argument that the series never should have introduced an intractable enemy in the first place. Fair enough. But I don't really think it's in contention whether the Dominion was intractable or not.
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