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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 11:09am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Booming

I am perfectly cool. I also stand by every word I've said.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:33am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Jason R.

There is something here that I don't get:

Why should there even be a connection between the stuff that an actor posts on social media and the hiring studio's name?

Actors are not hired for their political acumen. Nor are they hired for being well-rounded people or examples of moral virtue.

Actors are hired to act. If the do *that* badly, then I'd agree that this reflects negatively on the studio that hired them. But why care about their personal and political views? How does this reflect on the studio in any shape or form.

I just don't get it.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:19am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Booming
"It is more like describing a phenomenon without justification of any kind."

Really?

Let's summarize your latest post, shall we:

1. You've painted one half of humanity as being backwards and racist and governed-by-fear, while painting the other half as being enlightened and progressive and tolerant.
2. You've equated these two groups with the two sides of the political spectrum.
3. You give ridiculous examples for what being "conservative" or "progressive" means, and they always paint the former in a bad light.
4. You constantly say that conservatives being ostracized is "just the way things" are and interwine this claim with rhetoric about "progress" and "being left behind".
5. You always treat the persecution of "those left behind" as "their problem" and a source for "their fear". It never occurs to you that these people are just human as you are, and that their persecution is also your problem.

And then you claim you're not making any moral judgement? That you're just "describing a phenomenon"?

Sorry, but this doesn't fly.

The truth is that you *are* making a moral judgement, and it's a terrifying one. The rhetoric in your latest comments is a classic example of how demonizing and hate-mongering starts.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 1:13pm (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Dave in MN

"And frankly, a lot of the time, Booming DOES have a point"

I agree. A lot of the time, she does. Unfortunately, this was not one of those times...

BTW have you read the entire comment in question? Or did you stop at first sentence (which was the thing you praised)?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 2:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Booming
"Very recently it has become more pronounced on the left. It will calm down now, I think, now that nobody is Trump crazy anymore. "

This is factually wrong.

Trump has been gone for over a month now, and it isn't calming down. On the contrary: It looks like the PC mob has just gained *more* confidence from the fact that "nobody is Trump crazy anymore".

"Let's separate people into conservative and progressive."

Let's not.

Seriously, it is this kind of sh*t that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. This belief that "our side" (whichever that side it may be) is the paragon of virtue while the "other side" is a barbaric echo of the past which needs to be purged.

"In general for several decades, with some shortlived reversals one could argue for 200 years now, societies progress..."

Indeed.

Now here is an interesting challenge for you:

Can you describe what "social progress" entails, without referencing any political agenda?

"...societies progress which means that conservatives sooner or later become reactionaries, not because they changed but because societies changed. Then they are ostracized or canceled. Progressives are cancelled if they are too far ahead. That is why progressives sometimes later on are vindicated while conservatives who fall behind are not."

Do you realize how cultish this sound? Just because you call yourselves "progressives" does not mean you have a monopoly on social progress.

I'm reminded of all those religious nuts who claim "our religion is the ultimate truth and source of morality" while also committing - at the same time - horrendous amoral acts.

I mean seriously... look at all the things that people have done in the name of your allegedly enlightened views in the past few months. You call this living nightmare that's constantly getting worse "progress"? Are you f***-ing kidding me?

The worst of it is: This is exactly how the PC mob justifies what they are doing to themselves. They are so sure of their moral superiority that they treat everybody who thinks otherwise as subhuman.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:27pm (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Dave in MN

When did Booming do that?

Let's not let ourselves get distracted from the main issue here. As Jason stated:

"There isn't any serious doubt at this moment in history that left is the perpetrator, end of story. Left against right; left against centre; left against left.
This is not a symmetrical phenomenon."

This is precisely why cancel culture - in it's present form - is so terrifying. If it were only about random groups of people who ostracize other random groups of people, it wouldn't be a big deal, would it?

Now note that 99% of Booming's comment is aimed at denying Jason's statement. So what point, exactly, did she concede when she said "cancel culture is a problem"? Context, my friend, is everything.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 8:50am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Sen-Sors
"It's interesting that people say 'How will lefties feel when cancel culture is turned around on them' because that scenario describes most of the 20th century, at least in the US. Cancel culture wasn't invented by Twitter lefties, it's always been with us, often wielded by conservatives."

That's true, and it's not just the 20th century. This has been going on since the dawn of history.

But this just strengthens Dave's point:

You don't need to "imagine" what a reverse situation would be like. There are plenty of historical precedents, and history has proven just how bad and oppressive those precedents are.

So why are so people okay with the current situation? Was McCarthyism so fun that we want to go through it again? Do these things suddenly become okay when it is your side of the political map who does them?

"That said, I am not necessarily a big fan of Twitter-style cancel culture. Exposing powerful people as predators and bigots is good, but there can be elements of mob-mentality..."

It's not just an "element" of mob-mentality. It's the very nature of the psychological process that's going on.

There's absolutely NOTHING in the current cancel culture that is aimed to expose predators and bigots.

Just like McCarthyism wasn't really about exposing Russian spies, and the post 9-11 mania wasn't really about stopping terrorists. At best, you could argue that these things have *started* with these goals in mind, but even then, the end result was inevitable to anyone who knows anything about human psychology. At worst, you could argue that they were a deliberate ploy to use an existing crisis to gain more power over the others.

Have you noticed how these things *always* get out of hand? It's quite telling that all your examples of historical cancel-culture ended up badly, isn't it? When will we finally learn the lessons from history and stop doing this sh*t?

"But here in the US, people with politics like Carano might endanger their revenue stream. They want everyone's money so they can't risk offending anyone."

Ah. But ask yourself this question:

Why does Carano's politics endanger Disney's revenue stream, any more than Pascal's politics? Both of them referenced the Nazis. Both of them have also made plenty of controversial tweets in the past. So why does this logic only works in one direction? After all, roughly half of Disney's viewers are Republicans. Why aren't Disney afraid to offend *that* half of their customers?

It's funny how people use this argument of "this isn't censorship! It's just business!" without actually stopping to think what that argument really means: Apparently the mob of the extreme left has become so powerful, that the mega-corporations find it "profitable" to fire actors who exhibit wrongthink.

I don't know about you, but I personally find such a situation to be much scarier then a simple "we've let her go because we find her views appalling". This kind of thing only becomes a danger when it is systemized, and "systemized" is exactly what you get when there's a mob that pressures everyone to conform to the same way of thinking.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 8:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Booming
"I don't know if my post created any responses."

You made me curious and I looked. My God, that was surprisingly mean-spirited, even for you.

Anybody keeping a tally of how many times Booming deliberately tries to hurt another person with a wild under-the-belt attack? I wonder if we're in the 3-digit zone already.

"I didn't read them because I'm too sensitive and afraid..."

Let me get this straight:

You're such a tender sensitive soul, that you're deathly afraid of the responses you might get. Yet you don't give a hoot that you've just DELIBERATELY hurt another poster? Heck, you've done this dozens of time before, and not even once have you shown a hint of remorse?

Forgive me if I'm having trouble buying your "poor sensitive little me" routine.

At any rate, you'll be happy to learn that nobody retaliated to your vicious post in kind, so your saintly pure soul remains protected.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We apologize for the above interruption, and now return you to your regular program.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 8:51am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Cody B
"It will be a never ending back and forth."

Indeed.

These "discussions" with this guy achieve absolutely nothing, because he isn't interested in an actual discussion. He is doing this because:

(1) He has a need to "prove" to everybody how right and smart he is and how stupid they are.
(2) He is bored sh*tless and this is a way to pass his time (that's not my interpretation but something he openly admitted many times). This also means that often his replies are deliberately provocative and nonsensical because that's the best way to lure you into an endless cycle.
(3) He simply can't refrain from replying.

This is why these arguments go on and on in circles, without anybody ever learning anything.

So what's the point? I can't speak for anybody else, but I - personally - have decided that I'm not going to waste any more of my time on pointless verbal sparring with people who aren't interested in an actual honest conversation.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 9:52am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@John

Given that the TV Networks and the media generally try really hard to pretend that nothing I've stated is a big deal, your statement doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps it is you who should stop believing the narrative you're being fed by that little box? Turn your TV off and do your own research for a while. I guarantee that you'll find it illuminating.

@Dave in MN

"If you want to understand someone's fear, put yourself in their shoes. Or create a hypothetical where the current paradigm is reversed? Would you be okay if these tactics were used against you? "

The funny thing (in a sad way) is that this is bound to happen at some point. These witch hunters always turn against their own, eventually. Unfortunately, by the time thing get so far that these people wake up, it is usually too late to do anything about it... :-(
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 6:23am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Jammer
"That's the thing. Most people probably *don't* fit into any particular binary political box, but the partisan (and increasingly polarized) state of our electoral politics has all but forced everyone into one, and the no-compromises, take-no-prisoners political combat media infrastructure has made it very hard for sane voices and middle ground to be paid any attention."

The real problem with the current style of discourse, is that it politicizes everything. What's currently going on in the world (and in the US in particular) is terrifying, and one does not need to be affiliated with any political party to openly state this.

We are slowly but surely deteriorating into a "1984"-style dystopia. This scares the heck out of me, and at this point I couldn't care less about right-wing or left-wing ideologies. Those quibbles could wait after this crisis is over. At this point, I simply want this nightmare to stop, and I would support any public figure - regardless of their political affiliations - who decides to fight these worrying trends.

@Paul M.
"As someone who is not American, I must say that I think that cancel culture over there is reaching horrendous levels. Surrendering your basic human rights - and the right to work is a basic human right - to unaccountable corporations is downright scary."

Agree 100%

"The scariest thing, to me, is how seemingly willing people are to hand away their freedoms. Interested in reactions of fans, I went to Mandalorian reddit and was amazed by what I found there. They were all cheeeing! This is McCarthyism come again."

The original McCarthyism serves as a fine reminder of how both sides of the political spectrum can go down this route.

Back in the 1950's it was the right. Now it's the left. Needless to say, these witch hunts are equally repugnant regardless of who is doing them.

The big problem, however, is that the current witch hunters have the insane power of social media in their hands. Nobody could achieve such total control in the 1950's. So this time it's going to be much harder to fight against.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 10:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

@Dave in MN
"Why is it wrong to compare a historic political party advocating national socialism a current one?"

The history nerd in me would like to point out that this is factually incorrect: The Nazi party was anything by socialist, despite its name.

Doesn't change the legitimacy of the comparison, though. It's interesting how the process of targeting and dehumanizing dissenters is pretty much the same, regardless of who is doing it.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 10:47am (UTC -5)
Re: MAND S2: Chapter 16: The Rescue

Funny how this only happens to people from one side of the political map, eh?

Democrats can freely compare Trump to Hitler, call Republicans "Nazis" and "terrorists" and whatever they please. I don't recall any of them being fired or canceled.

And Gina didn't even call anybody a Nazi. Nor did she accuse anybody of "planning genocide". She just mentioned a specific dangerous process that happened in Nazi Germany and argued that a similar process is happening right now in the US.

She is 100% right.

The kind of demonizing that's being done to Republicans right now is downright scary. The fact that a person can't even *say* this simple truth without fear of being fired by a mob trial, only proves just how serious this situation is.


P.S.
I'm not interested in endless arguments about this. I've never had much patience for either bullies or people who support bullying mobs.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 9:42am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Drumhead

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged."

--- Judge Aaron Satie, 2331
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 5:58am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@Sen-Sors

Your own post might have been more persuasive if:
1. It didn't open it with a personal attack.
2. You haven't been caught lying and spreading misinformation many times before.
3. You didn't see bigots everywhere.
4. You haven't made that comparison between an ordinary person and KKK supporters.

As it is, you sound just like any other PC extremist who has gone over the deep end. You act like them, too.

So no offense, but I don't see any point in either listening to you are having a conversation with you.

Oh... and if you want to me to stop saying things like "your credibility is dropping by the second" and "how do you expect to have a reasonable conversation with people?", then I suggest you work on becoming more credible and more reasonable.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 5:22am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@Slacker Inc
"As I say, I draw the line at altering a healthy body."

When it comes to my own body, I would agree with you.

But other people may feel differently. And as I said before, many people who undergo a sex change operation end up vastly happier then they were before.

Can you really say that they've made the wrong choice? Or that it is our business to forbid them from doing so?

I think not.

Indeed, I firmly believe that a person should be free to pursue happiness in whatever way they please, unless they are hurting others.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: A Piece of the Action

Yup.

While the Orville takes it's visual cues from TNG, it is actually closer to TOS in spirit.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@SlackerInc
"If you were born with a fully functioning penis and testicles but what really turns you on is muscular guys who have those organs as well, just be a gay dude. Simple. No reason you have to become a "transwoman", although if you like to wear dresses and high heels for some reason, be my guest."

It's not that simple.

Being gay and being trans are two completely different things. The fact that the two are lumped together is - indeed - part of the problem (by people on both sides of the argument).

True transgender means that a person feels that THEIR OWN BODY is wrong for them. It has nothing to do with who you are attracted to or what you like to wear.

So for a true (adult!) transgender, undergoing a sex-change operation may be the right thing to do. From the research I've done, there are many instances where it actually makes a person happier. So if it makes a person more comfortable in their own skin, why not?

The problem, these days, is differentiating between people who would actually benefit from the change, and those who got the idea into their heads for the wrong reasons.

Another problem is the widely-held belief that these things are absolute and unchanging, and that they are somehow determined by medical tests. They are not. They are determined by the subjective experience of the person in question, and this can change over time.

In short:

It is a complicated and delicate topic and people have many misconceptions about it.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:32pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@Booming
"I often react to these debates because I think that maybe the few trans people who come here feel a little better because they see that science is on their side and that somebody stands up for them. And that a few of the "Trans scare" people maybe reconsider their views."

If those are your goals, then react intelligently.

Most of the people here that you label "transphobic" (including myself):

1. Have absolutely nothing against nonbinary people and are fully accepting of nonbinary people.
2. Disagree with you (and the PC crowd in general) on certain points.
3. Are willing to change their minds about #2 if you provide a compelling argument.

The trouble is that your arguments, so far, are terrible. Or worse: Ad hominems that aren't arguments at all.

Saying things like "you understand nothing, believe what you must" is not going to convince anyone to change their views in your favor. Lumping intelligent accepting people with religious nuts and ultraconservatives isn't helping your cause.

In fact, it is doing exactly the opposite. It makes your stance look dogmatic and cultish. Do you realize that?

"I have no interest in discussing this any further. For quite some time now actually."

Then stop.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 11:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: Die Trying

@Peremensoe

"I don't want Star Trek to look like America. That's too small. America is not Earth, and Earth is not Starfleet, or the galaxy."

Hear hear.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 11:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

Let me ask you two questions, Booming:

1. Say you are witnessing a discussion where everybody is making good points, and then suddenly one person would flippantly tell another "This is just something you don't understand. Believe what you must." without any explanation or reasoning.

What would you think about the situation?

2. Same as #1, but this time it is you - personally - who is the target of that flippant statement.

What would you think about the person who made that remark? Will you find it convincing? Impressive? Or just the opposite?

Food for thought.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 5:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@Booming
"It really didn't, though. It told you something about that specific person. You are just generalizing a singular personal experience. The numbers Trent gave you were correct."

The numbers that Trent gave may have been correct for the era in which that survey was taken. So?

That was an era when "transitioning" wasn't a fad pumped by the media, teenagers weren't encouraged to "ignore their doubts" whenever the subject arises, and prepubescent children weren't regarded as valid candidates for hormonal treatments.

Do you seriously believe that these massive social changes won't affect the regret rate? That these changes won't result in countless youngsters flocking into the clinics for all the wrong reasons, and later realizing that they've made the mistake of their life?

You're a social scientist. You, of all people, should realize the magnitude of this disaster.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 1:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@Booming
"I thought you didn't watch the show."

I don't.

But I watched these two specific scenes we've been talking about here, in order to be able to talk intelligently about them.

"You could literally pick any scene and say that it is bold face and all caps because that is what Discovery is, the opposite of subtle."

I get that when Discovery wants to do drama, it looks like this (or even worse).

But there's another seperate issue, which is the fact that the writers felt the need
to play this specific scene for drama at all.

Why? In-universe it makes absolutely no sense for the exchange to be dramatic, and that's why I call it virtue signaling. It's shoehorning a contemporary issue into a situation were it doesn't belong. And as often is the case with such misfires, it sends out a message that's the exact opposite of what was intended: That nonbinary people are so doomed to being stigmatized, that they still have these issues over a thousand years in the future.

I don't know about you, but I personally find this implication to be depressing.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 10:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@Booming
"The scene in the next? episode where Stamets and Culber talk while Adira sleeps feels preachy but I thought her coming out in this scene was pretty low key."

Kinda surreal that I'm the person asking you this, but... are you actually watching the show?

Both scenes are from this episode.

And the problem with the scene between Adira and Stamets is not in their words, but in the over-the-top way it was filmed.

You write this:

"Adira says what pronouns they prefer and Stamets says ok and that is it. It's not super sophisticated but alright, I thought. "

Which would have been perfectly fine. But that's a simple 10-second scene, and this isn't what we got.

What we've got is a scene that's padded to 3 times the length, with overdramatic awkward pauses and overemotional music. You might want to watch the scene again. It was anything but "low key".
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 9:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: The Sanctuary

@Dave in MN
"Imagine this scene on DS9: It would have been a passing mention in a dialogue-filled scene and it wouldn't have French Horns echoing in the background."

DS9 would probably manage to do both: Keep the conversation natural yet still manage to make a poignant point.

Perhaps something like this (I'm no writer, so treat it as a very rough draft for a better scene that what we've actually got):

Stamets: She is fast.
...
Adira: "They" are fast.
Stamets: Hmm? [the other shoe drops] Ah. I'm sorry. I forgot some joined trills...
Adira: [casually] Not in my case. It's just that I've never felt like a "she" or "her", so...
Stamets: [awkwardly] Got it. Sorry.

Needless to say, this version of the scene would have no melodrama, no french horns, no grinding-the-entire-cosmos-to-halt-just-because-we-are-about-to-make-a-point.

In-universe, it's just a simple misunderstanding. Yet to a present-day viewer, that simple exchange would mean much more (you can also have fun trying to figure out what worldbuilding choices I've made that let to the above dialogue).

By the way:

I've actually watched the original scene before posting this. Man, I hate doing my homework, sometimes... ;-)
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