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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 5:19am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

@Karl Zimmerman
"I find it very implausible that two people in their situation - one of which professes to hate the other person, and the other of which found out they were horribly betrayed only five minutes before - would be able to trust one another under any circumstances"

I don't think either of them really trusted one another on the emotional level. Refraining from killing a person who may well be your only hope for survival is hardly the epitome of trust. I'm also pretty sure that Talaya wouldn't have hesitated to kill Ed if it weren't a Union Shuttle that rescued them.

So basically, Talaya had just enough doubt in her beliefs to allow Ed the chance to save them both. As for Ed, he really *really* emotionally invested in giving Talaya the benefit of the doubt. He also had a gun pointed to his face, so he had nothing to lose by clinging to this hope.

Given what we already know about these two characters from season 1, I actually find this development to be quite plausible.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 4:23am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

I mistakenly submitted my previous comment before completing the final paragraph. It was supposed to read:

I'll take "obnoxious with overt morality" over "no morality what-so-ever" any day. Agreed that Classic Trek was often too preachy and could sometimes benefit from being subtler, but at least it had a positive vision for the future.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 4:21am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@Weiss

"Discovery is basically repurposing star trek for a new generation, it has to be faster and flashy than the old shows because that is what can sell in tv nowadays with so much competition."

Even the guys at CBS no longer believe that, which is why they've completely changed the tone for Discovery Season 2.

"And the complaints about this show being SJW..."

Nobody on this thread ever complained about that. Funny, how the only people here who are using the term "SJW" at all, are those who complain about these non-existent complaints. You're like the 5th person here who did that.

"(and man, star trek has always been obnoxious with their overt morality, looks at trills in next generation, and every episode with their issues)."

I'll take "obnoxious with overt morality" over "no morality what-so-ever" any day.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 3:49am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes

I'm conflicted on this one.

On the one hand, it has a great premise and it is an exceptionally tight story. On the the other hand, just like "Primal Urges", this episode had serious pacing issues. What is it with Bragga and pacing issues? Last season's "Into the Fold" also had this problem.

It's really strange how the quiet episodes like "Home" and "Ja'loja" could keep me riveted every single moment, yet action-packed "Fishes" had me bored half of the time. All in all, not sure how to rate this one. It's either a high 2.5/4 or a low 3/4. I'll probably decide on one of them, after we see how they callback on the events of this epiosde

Also, I wonder what kind of trees this planet has, that can withstand the boiling temperatures of high-noon on this 800-hour day planet.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 2:31am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

I haven't seen the episode itself (I'm not ready to give CBS my money yet) but I'll say this much:

It is obvious that Kurtzman is trying to rectify many of the mistakes that were done in season 1. Finally "Discovery" is actually... well... discovering, instead of lense-flaring and advocating war crimes. They also got rid of those ridiculous monsters they called "klingons" in season 1. And while I normally don't like gratuitous fan service, I think that having Pike as our new "resident Captain" is an excellent idea.

Still weary because... well, Kurtzman. But at least they now have the basics right.

By the way,

I'm really *really* interested to see what those Trek veterans who disliked season 1 (like Dom and Peter and Grumpy Otter) have to say about this episode.

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 9:48am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

*huge sigh of relief*

Finally.

Thanks, Jammer.

Now that that's been settled, anybody wants to comment on my analysis of Xeleyan gravity?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 4:17am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

And back on topic, here is a fun fact:

Using the bottle scene, one can calculate that the Gravity on Xeleya is somewhere between 6 and 10 G's (by noting that it took the bottle about 0.2 seconds to fall from an apex of 5-6 feet). So apparently Xeleya is a super-earth (maybe 4 times the radius and twice a dense as our own earth), which explains both the multitude of moons and cool rings around the planet.

Anybody wants to try and compare this to the height of Alara's jump in "Old Wounds"? Assuming 1 earth gravity on Epsilon II, it should have been between 6 and 10 times higher than a normal human.

(I know that there's absolutely no way a humanoid race would evolve on a planet with 6-10 G's, but that won't stop me from geeking out on the physics ;-))
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 4:03am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

@Booming

Have you seen anybody here who asked Dougie to leave?

I completely agree that he has the right to post anything within reason. Other people also have this right, though.

So yes. Dougie is more than welcome to continue posting his scathing opinions, just as others are welcome to rebut is points. It is really that simple. Not sure what's the fuss is all about. Dougie seems to make an effort to make it *look* like a huge thing is going on here (sockpuppetry! IP addresses! you're setting me on fire!) but it's really a huge fuss over nothing.

And really, that's the only reason we've had like 20 posts that discuss this complete non-issue.

TL;DR Everybody is allowed (an encouraged) to voice their opinions, Dougie included. Now let's voice some of these opinions, and stop getting side-tracked.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 4:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

@Dougie

It isn't "standard procedure" at all to publicly show the IP of every poster. Due to obvious issues of privacy, this is a very rare practice indeed.

What *is* standard procedure, is to allow THE SITE OWNER (as well as any moderator appointed by him) to monitor the IP's. Jammer indeed has this ability, which he used more than once to unmask people who write with multiple usernames (remember the Ezri hater who posted with multiple usernames on the DS9 discussions?)

As for Edit/Delete Post buttons:

While these are, indeed, standard features, they are also heavily prone to misuse. They just invite malicious people to troll others on purpose and then edit their posts to make it seem like the other person got angry over nothing.

So no... this is just an awful idea. People should be required to take responsibility for the stuff they are posting.

By the way, if you suspect a specific user of using multiple accounts, feel free to ask Jammer about it. As I've already said, he has access to all the relevant information.

Now, can we please return to discussing the episode? Please?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 12:13pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@Peter G.

"Hahaha! So the problem with VOY and DS9 was that they both felt too much like Star Trek! Touche!"

You know, it's funny, because in terms of general tone VOY and DS9 are nearly total opposites. The only thing that makes them alike, is that you tell they are set in the same fictional universe. In other words: continuity and consistency.

Not surprised at all that Alex Kurtzman thinks of this as a problem. Especially given his plans to "Marvelize" the Star Trek franchise.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:57am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

I'm not "upset" about it.

I was simply pointing the hate-watching situation out. I think it is important to make these things clear. But now that I've done that, I don't think we should dwell on it any longer. You know how Jammer dislikes that...

Now, let's get back to discussing the episode. Dougie raised an interesting question here: What must an episode include in order to qualify as "space-based sci fi"? And does "Home" meet these criteria?

Another interesting question one might ask: If an episode of the Orville doesn't qualify, is it necessarily a bad thing?

Everybody is welcome to join this discussion.


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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 5:19am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

@Dougie

I couldn't care less about the stunt casting of "the Star Trek Doctors" and Warburton's elephant-guy was downright annoying (he's actually one of the reasons I cannot give this episode a 4/4 rating).

But this episode gave us one of the most beautiful planets we've ever seen on a Trek-like show. It's was like a live episode of "No Man's Sky" (complete with alien riding animals that actually looked alien).

The story itself is also based of a sci fi premise. Or have you forgotten the reason that Alara had to return home in the first place? Or Ed's gravity suit? Or Gordon's bottle (the explorer in me just loved that bit)?

In short, your complaint is simply ridiculous.

Besides, I don't recall you liking the Orville any better when it had space action.
(and I still can't fathom why you're insisting on watching a show you loath and then complain about it... but whatever rocks your boat)

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 1:13am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

Regarding the reasons for Sage leaving and the so-called rumors:

The rumors of her leaving in season 2 began *before* she stopped hanging out with McFarlane (regardless of whether they were "dating" or "just friends"). It seems that this was planned a while back, and that the reason for her leaving is the scheduling conflict with her doing "The Last Summer".

Sorry to disappoint those who expected a juicier story...
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Jan 12, 2019, 11:35am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

Oops.

"Gordon and Ed return" should have been "Gordon and Ed first come in to land". Sorry.

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Jan 12, 2019, 11:22am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Home

Wow. Just wow.

I think this is my new favorite episode of the Orville. I'm not sure that I can whole-heartedly give it 4/4 (too many little things bothered me) but it's a solid 3.5/4.

It was also, by far, the best farewell episode I've ever seen for a main character in any TV show. Classic Trek, by the way, have a terrible record with these (Both Tasha Yar's and Jadzia's death scenes were a horrible dis-service to the characters).

Bravo, Orville!

@Karl

"I was somewhat disappointed that it turns out Alara's homeworld looks just like our own despite the higher gravity (mountains should have been lower, buildings constructed differently, etc) but given she doesn't look like what you'd expect a high-gravity species to look like, along with budgetary constraints, I wasn't surprised."

Maybe it was just me being fooled by my own expectations, but the water *did* seem somewhat different. Calmer. Flatter. The waves shallower. And the boiling sauce in the pot looked... weird. As if it is compressed and filmed in fast-motion.

Again, I'm not sure if this was just my imagination or something they did deliberately. But either way, I liked the effect.

One thing that was definitely on purpose, is that way Xelaya's transport system works. We see quite a lot of it, when Gordin and Ed return, and it seems to be mainly based on hovertrains in enclosed tubes. This actually makes sense for a high-gravity planet, where wheels and ordinary rails would be useless.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 8:42am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Primal Urges

@Charles J

"What’s hard to argue is that The Orville is MORE optimistic than Discovery. Just because The Orville is brightly lit, tells more jokes per minute than Discovery does most episodes, and isn’t action oriented doesn't make it automatically more optimistic."

I agree. That's not the reason I'm saying that the Orville is optimistic.

"I’d say there isn’t one scene in The Orville that compares to Tilly challenging her fellow crew members to be more compassionate towards Tyler in spite of his crimes, then sitting down to eat with him. That is Star Trek’s optimism and best of humanity distilled into a single moment."

That's a single scene.

On the other hand, Discovery also gave us heros that perform war crimes, and a version of Sarek that advocates genocide. And there's no scene comparable to these horrible horrible things in the Orville either, is there?

So yes, the Orville is far more optimistic. Sure, it doesn't depict a future as "perfect" as TNG, but it is still a version of the 25th century I would very much like to live in.

One can even argue that showing us a crew with everyday human flaws is *more* optimistic than the traditional Star Trek take on the issue. Because the Orville basically tells us:

"hey, it's okay. Humans, even thought they are flawed and will always be flawed, are going to do alright. We won't destroy ourselves and we'll go to the stars and we'll have world peace and a post-scarcity society". That's not optimistic enough for you?

Also, keep in mind that while the Orville crew are not paragons of virtue, they *are* trying to do good in the universe. They are mostly decent people, even though they also have weaknesses and flaws.

And at least none of them planted a bomb in a body to kill mourners, or advocated the obliteration of an entire planet with the excuse of "self-defense". Yes, Ed's flyby is creepy. But (a) the fact that it's creepy was addressed within the show and (b) it's peanuts when compared to genocide.

P.S.
It is true that the brightly-lit atmosphere helps to cement to the optimistic feeling. There's no denying that it sets a certain vibe and creates certain expectations. But the important thing here is that the Orville delivers on those expectations successfully. Putting it all together, the Orville's 25th century is a pretty cool place to live in. Can you honestly say the same thing about Discovery?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 2:14am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Primal Urges

@Charles J

"It's difficult to just have fun when a character's actions hurt his spouse (and possibly his kid) to the point that spouse wants to divorce him via murder..."

I don't think we are expected to "just have fun" in this episode. The inter-character drama was played completely straight (no pun intended) and the audience were expected to treat it as such. The "disintegrating planet" plot wasn't particularly "fun" either. This is a pretty heavy episode, all things considered.

Also, the way you described the situation is pretty unfair to Bortus. You kinda forgot to mention that the whole thing started because Klyden insisted on conforming their child to society's expectations against Bortus' wishes. That's a pretty big thing, so there's plenty of blame to pass around here.

"No captain in Star Trek would have let Bortus get away with that much in one episode. Not without serious repercussions."

What do you mean by "that much"?

The stuff between Bortus and Klyden isn't any of the Captain's business (at least, not until it becomes a case of attempted-murder). Bortus' porn activities isn't any of the Captain's business either, unless in interferes with his duties. We could argue that it *does* interfere with his duties to a certain extent, but requesting to leave your post 15 minutes early a few days in a row is hardly a court-martial offense.

There's exactly one thing that Bortus did in this episode for which he deserves serious repercussions: He installed an unknown piece of software in the simulator without checking it for viruses. And he did this on a f***-ing spaceship, where such things can become deadly.

Had he pulled such a stunt on a real navy ship, he would have been expelled from the service at the very least. But does it really work that way in Star Trek?

I don't think so.

Shall I count the number of times that a Star Trek senior officer endangered the ship because they were criminally careless and nobody batted an eye? The main cast were always above the law to a certain extent, especially when it came to issues of negligence.

"The frequent praising of this show as a more 'real' and optimistic Star Trek than Discovery honestly baffles me."

Why?

First of all, it isn't too difficult to be "more optimistic" then dark-and-gritty-Discovery, so that's a pretty low bar to clear.

Secondly, the Orville is indeed more optimistic than anything else on TV these days. Heck, I'll say that DS9 pushed the boundaries of "optimistic sci fi" far beyond what the Orville ever did.

Thirdly, the Orville has intelligent plots and it makes you think, which is more that can be said about 99% of present day TV shows.

Also, remember: The Orville is not *supposed* to be Star Trek. It's in the same general genre of "optimistic sci fi" but there's a big difference in tone It may be similar to Trek in many ways, but it is different in others. This isn't a bad thing. On the contrary, this is what enables the Orville to be its own thing rather than yet-another-Star-Trek-clone.

BTW I *do* think that one of the differences between Classic Trek and the Orville is that the Orville is more realistic when it comes to the characters (with the possible exception of DS9).
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Jan 6, 2019, 11:32pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Primal Urges

"But, again, the show is much more than a comedy".

I'll go as far as saying that the Orville isn't a comedy at all, really. It's a light-hearted sci fi drama with comedic elements, and it should be judged as what it is.

So while I don't know if Jammer "gets comedy" or not, I'm pretty sure it isn't particularly relevant to his reviews of the Orville.



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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Jan 6, 2019, 9:01am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Primal Urges

"About a Girl" is an amazing episode. People who claim it is anti-trans or anti-gay are completely missing the point.

Also, I'm sick and tired of people who put political-correctness ahead of giving actual respect to minorities. "About a Girl" may not be PC, but it most definitely *is* an episode with a pro-diversity message.

By "diversity" I don't just mean gender issues. It's an episode about the importance of allowing people the chance to be themselves, instead of forcefully conforming them to society's norms. And as a person who is... different... in other ways, I deeply thank Seth for this wonderful instructive piece of television.

(Season 2, unfortunately, has nothing that approaches this level of profoundness yet. But the season is still young)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 10:25pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Primal Urges

The viewing ratings for this episode are up, and they are awful: 0.6.

Can't say I'm surprised, though. Ja'loja was a terrible choice for a season permier (not a bad episode, but a terrible permier).

Let's hope the numbers improve next week. Given the heavily polarized reactions of Orville fans to "Primal Urges" there's no way to tell how it will go. But right now, things do not look good.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 10:38am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Primal Urges

This episode was such a missed opportunity.

The story outline is superb. Had you shown me a two-page summary of the beats in this episode, I would have told you that it's a stroke of genius. A genuine classic. I was quite impressed by both the progression of the A and B plots, as well as the way they were interwoven together in the end.

The execution, however, left much to be desired. The first half had huge pacing issues. The simulators scenes in the that part of the episode were instant pace-killers. Really, Orville, *that's* what you do with the few additional minutes per episode that Fox gave you?

They should have either made these scenes shorter, or made them more interesting. I mean, there are so many wacky directions you can take the general concept of alien porn. And if there's a show that shouldn't be afraid of going in wacky directions, that's the Orville.

Instead, we got the most banal sex fantasies imaginable, played in the most boring possible way. The prison scene, in particular, seemed to drag on forever. You could condense that scene from two minutes to ten seconds and absolutely nothing would have been lost. And then you could have spent those two minutes to add depth to the "disintegrating planet" part of the story.

@Booming
"I have serious doubts that such a guy should handle stuff like gender reassignment surgery and the problems that come with it."

That's like saying that a greedy skirt-chasing guy with shady morals shouldn't write about an utopian post-scarcity future with no prejudice.

Good thing Gene Roddenberry didn't listen to your advice ;-)

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 1:19am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Ja'loja

@Trent

I don't think the show is "anti-intellectual". It just comes from a different perspective. A lighter, more down-to-earth tone. There's a difference between not putting an emphasis on the intellectual side, and being "anti-intellectual".

And quite frankly, given the number of times that the TNG crew arrogantly did something atrocious due to some absolute moral philosophy (Dave gave the example of "Homeward"), I find this new approach refreshing. The Orville has heart, which is why so many people love the show.

"I suspect fans are latching on to Seth's Frat Boy Trek precisely because Official Trek has, in kowtowing to various trends (aesthetic/political/philosophical), become even worse"

It's more complicated than that.

Remember that being a fan of something is an emotional decision. And after the hell-ride that CBS gave us decades-long fans in the past two years, mocking both our beloved franchise and us as a fanbase, some of us simply had enough.

In short: Being a fan of their stuff is no longer fulfilling to me, on any level. There's only so much abuse you can take, before you decide to call it quits.

Sure, the fact that we haven't got any actual respectable Trek in the past 13+ years was also a factor in this decision. But it wasn't the only reason.

At any rate, the Orville fills this void nicely. In retrospect, I actually prefer to have the Orville over having another iteration of classic Trek. It's different. It's fresh. It's far from perfect, but I'm genuinely curious to see how this brand new sci-fi universe develops onscreen.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Jan 2, 2019, 11:33am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Ja'loja

@Yanks
"The' 'Great Release' was some funny stuff when he explained it. but the execution of it wasn't anything special. I felt like we missed something."

I have a nagging feeling that Seth wrote an elaborate comedic scene that showed us the actual ceremony, and then nixed it because he deemed it to be too disrespectful for an "alien-culture-ceremony-scene-on-a-treklike-show".

And of-course, Seth being Seth, he just couldn't bring himself to rewrite the scene as a straight one. So it ended on the cutting-room floor.

That's my guess, anyway.


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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Jan 2, 2019, 11:22am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@Grumpy Otter

Evidence - yes. Plenty.

Absolute ironclad proof - no.





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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Jan 2, 2019, 11:04am (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Ja'loja

@Dougie
"Kermit the Frog on Ed’s desk. This is how the writers treat the viewers of this show. This is the food for which our intellect hungers, they assume. "

Why not?

Kermit the Frog was pretty inspirational in his TED Talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX7vQ2QB6Eo

"I remember Kermit when I watch and think Picard's desk with ship models. I remember Janeway’s Office and decorum as a captain. When my brain processes how far away from that we are, it’s clear the show has no reason other than to be a deep comedy."

How is it "clear"? You've haven't given an ounce of reasoning for this claim.

Moreover, nearly every episode in season 1 had some profound things to say, both in terms of the message, the characters and the technical execution.

Were you even watching the same show?

And yes, i agree that Seth isn't a great actor. He most certainly ain't no Patrick Stewart. What of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with the vision he has for the show, which is definitely *not* deep comedy.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do far better than point to Kermit and Seth's acting chops, if you want to support the "it could only work as a deep comedy" claim.

@Lynos said:
"Okay, I'm learning here in the comments that this episode was actually a season 1 episode? Is this true?"

No. That's the next episode (which airs tomorrow).
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