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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 10:56am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Doritera
"Not to mention, it never works the other way around. People who have already criticized Jammer for giving 3 stars to an episode that is 1/9th great and the rest so-so, I have a question for you. When you see a movie with a really horrible ending or one stand-out bad scene, surrounded by greatness, do you not give that scene mathematically disproportionate weight in your mental review?"

Mathematics has nothing to do with it.

A rating needs to address the quality of the whole story. The effect of one good/bad scene on the overall rating should depend on the impact of that scene on the story.

I'll say that the Picard/Data scenes, as good as they may be on their own, actually damage the story. We had all these threads and mysteries and plots, but in the end the show tells us "Ha ha! None of that even matters. We were just keeping you occupied with nonsense because we had only 5 minutes worth of good material".

That's not good storytelling. In fact, that's terrible storytelling. So yes, people are baffled by how such a disjointed mess (and Jammer fully admits that the entire season was a disjointed mess) can earn a 3-star rating.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Apr 1, 2020, 9:43am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tommy D.
"Does anyone have a line? Perhaps you do, but then, even amid all the criticism we all know everyone will be watching Discovery S3 and Picard S2 for whatever reason suits them."

Everyone? No.

I most certainly ain't going to watch it. There are others here who already stated that they've dropped out mid-season and/or they won't be watching any further.

Besides, what kind of madness is declaring in advance that you'll watch something regardless of its content? That sounds awfully like a cult member speaking, rather than an intelligent consumer of entertainment.

"Consider that I watch Westworld, and in 2+ seasons I don't think I've read once that the writers are desecrating Michael Crichton's vision or what have you. And that show has its own issues at times. It just doesn't come with the kind of constraint that Trek does."

In theory that is correct.

In practice, the Trekkies who say this are (unfortunately) such a tiny minority that the whole thing becomes irrelevant.

The writers can do whatever they want and the junkies... I mean *fans* will gobble it up regardless of the actual content being served. Hence my statement that there are no actual constraints.

"While people are talking about it, I find The Orville to be a manipulative derivative of 90's Trek."

Why "manipulative"?

Seth McFarlane is a hard-core Trekkie. Did you know that he made a Trek fan-film when he was a teenager?

The Orville is a show created by a Trekkie for like-minded people. How on earth is that "manipulative"?


"But in my mind, [the Orville] not Star Trek either."

That was... unexpected.

DIdn't you just say that no kind of content will make you say "this isn't Star Trek"? Are you now telling me that THE ORVILLE, of all things, is the series that managed to be the exception that crossed that line?

The Orville is a million times Trekkier than ST:P or Discovery. How can anybody say that the latter two shows are Star Trek while the Orville isn't? Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Unless we are - once again - resorting to classifying shows by their name while ignoring their content?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 5:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming
"The problem is that Macfarlane pitched this thing as a comedy but probably wants to make TNG: today."

Not exactly.

It's more of McFarlane's personal take on the optimistic space opera genre. He was obviously inspired by Star Trek, but he is also doing many things differently and he is doing that on purpose.

Perhaps if you stop expecting it to become TNG, you'll enjoy the show more?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 3:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Mocking fellow commenters based on personal information they devulged in their past comments is rude. Can you please stop doing that?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 8:26am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

Oops. Last part was addressed to Dom, not Trent.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 8:25am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming

That's just Chabon trying to lay the blame for this disaster on Stewart.

If you look at the interviews from the beginning of the season, you'll see a very different story.

@Lynos
"I've been trying to think if there is a comparable example of a beloved franchise that was repeatedly bombarded with canon inanity as Star Trek is in the last couple of years."

Star Wars?


"It's like watching a bunch of thugs beat down on a helpless animal. You want to avert your eyes, but you keep watching because you really hope that the animal can get back up and kick them in the face."

It's worse than that.

It's like watching a bunch of thugs who are beating down a helpless animal on youtube, and are getting all their ad-revenue from animal lovers who can't avert their eyes.

@Trent
"I've only seen a few episodes of The Orville. I know everyone says it's the true heir to TNG, but the wildly inconsistent tone and joke attitude are throwing me
off."

Well, it's easy to be called "the heir to TNG" when there isn't any competition.

There's nothing currently on TV that remotely resembles the Star Trek of old, except the Orville. And the tone - indeed - isn't for everyone. I personally love it, but i can see why many Trekkies would hate it.

Hopefully, we'll have more options in the future.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 7:38am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming
"What bothers me on a deeper level about Kurtzman/JJTrek is that they do not even respect basic scientific facts."

Star Trek always did that to a degree.

The difference is that Classic Trek usually maintained an *illusion* of making sense. They cared enough about the science to keep a good front (usually).

KurtzmanTrek has simply degraded to comic book physics, to match their comic book plots and comic book characters.

@Geekgarious
"If this show were as good as a show like The Expanse, we wouldn’t be arguing over whether or not it’s Trek."

You're probably right.

Because any writer that can create an Expanse-level show would understand the importance of world-building and having a consistent universe. Also, such a writer won't rush into doing Star Trek unless they seriously and genuinely want to write Star Trek.

These two problems (bad writing and "non-Trekiness") are mostly two sides of the same coin.

@Tommy D.
"I think you can argue thats actually a blessing for those shows. They have a little more freedom to take their show in certain directions if they choose, without the looming shadow of what came before."

How do they have more freedom?

CBS has made it clear that the words "Star Trek" pose them no limitations at all. Kurtzman is doing whatever the hell he wants, and the fandom (with a few pesky exceptions like yours truly) is accepting this without any problem. Heck, many fans are actually PAYING MONEY for this to happen.

Let me ask you this:

Are there ANY circumstances at all, which will cause you to say "Nope. They've crossed the line this time. I cannot accept this as Star Trek"?

I'm seriously asking. And if your answer is "yes", then I'd love to hear a concrete example of what would cross that line in your view.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 6:13am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Trent

Booming is already reviewing season 2 of the Orville. He doesn't seem to like it any more than season 1.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 1:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Tommy D.
"As a Trek fan, I would have thought other Trek fans would be the most used to Star Trek being anywhere from downright bad to excellent, and finding enjoyment in it all the same."

I would agree.

And I can definitely enjoy bad Trek... as long as the showrunners have their heart in the right place and are genuinely trying to create something that is worthy of the Star Trek name.

What I cannot enjoy, is the cynical use of the Star Trek IP by a mega-corporation who doesn't give a f*** about its legacy. Star Trek used to be something wonderful and inspiring. Right now it is not, and that's simply because TPTB are not trying anymore.

So you are telling me that we should shut up and support this sh*t just because it has "Star Trek" in its title?

No sir. I refuse to be manipulated in this manner. And I gotta say that it's quite amazing how many Classic Trek fans are falling for this cheap marketing trick. Seriously, guys. What's the matter with you?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 10:03am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Booming

They'll probably put him in a female golem. That's how show biz works these days. We already have a female Dr. Watson and a female Dr. Who and a female 007... So why not a female Picard?

And don't you dare say anything bad about that idea. If you do, then you're a misogynist piece of ****.

Because that's how show biz works these days.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 8:43am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Jor-El

Not all people would agree that TNG S1 was worse...
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 8:19am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Fair enough.

But if the show is so bad in his view, why are the star ratings so high? Not on this specific episode, naturally, but in general?

I *do* understand why a veteran Trek reviewer finds himself at a loss of words when reviewing this show. There's nothing of substance to latch to. No points that would lead into an interesting discussion. I get that, and I agree with you that this isn't Jammer's fault.

I just don't get why a reviewer would give 3 stars to a show that gives him nothing meaningful to talk about.

Not complaining, mind you. Just wondering.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 7:51am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@Trent

"It's worth remembering that Seth approached CBS to make a Trek series. They turned him down and went with Fuller and Kurtzman instead. 'The Orville' is obviously Seth's backdoor attempt to make a Trek show under a different title."

To be honest, I don't think that making an actual Trek show would have been a good match for McFarlane. It's just not his style.

With the Orville, Seth got the opportunity to create the kind of Trek-like show he really wanted.

"It would be interesting to see if 'Orville' can financially survive. It's working from the George Lucas/Spielberg/Roddenberry/Rod Serling template of SF.

Kurtzman-Trek is pulling from trashier, Michael Bay-esque influences, but that stuff sells. The masses love this stuff and this aesthetic. Those crappy Kurtzman/Bay Transformers movies made zillions of dollars."

The Orville did alright on Fox. The ratings weren't a great success, but it wasn't a failure either. It would have probably been renewed on Fox, if the whole Disney deal didn't happen. The market for such a show most certainly exists.

And I'm not sure at all that Kurtzman-Trek sells. The masses may love the style, but the masses have no reason to subscribe to a streaming service just to watch a new Star Trek series, when they have similar content that they can get for free.

It would be interesting to look at the actual statistics here. Did CBS ever publish their numbers?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:24am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

@msw188
"For me, this series was weird. Like, it spent the first 8-9 episodes convincing me that it was a tricksy mystery show with a terribly anti-StarTrek perspective, and then in the finale it reversed to a nice (if hokey) StarTrek perspective via ignoring its own tricks and mysteries."

So once again, we're getting a finale that basically tells us to ignore the entire season that came before it.

Have you noticed that this is how every single season of NuTrek ended?

DSC S1:

The Federation commits war crimes and everybody is behaving like little children. The show's attitude is as anti-Trek as possible. And then, in the season finale, Burnham suddenly gives this lofty Trekkian speech and the episode ends with the arrival of the Enterprise. It felt so out-of-place that it isn't even funny.

DSC S2:

The most blatant example of all. In the finale, everybody involved literally agrees to never ever speak of the previous events.

And now PIC S1 is doing the same thing. Suddenly giving us a more-or-less Trek-like ending while willfully ignoring 99% of what happened earlier - both in terms of storytelling and in tone.

This cheap trick is becoming quite tiresome.

@Wolfstar

"Todd, I don't think that's the main fault that many find with the series - it's bad drama. It's not that it's "not Star Trek", it's that it's very poor drama in its own right."

Different people have different reasons to like or dislike a show.

Todd was specifically talking about people (like myself) who say that Picard (and the newer shows in general) "isn't Star Trek". I suppose good storytelling is part of the equation, but it's not the main issue here.

@Todd
"So....to everyone claiming Picard isn't 'Star Trek' or 'Real Star Trek' or whatever...what exactly is Star Trek? Is it Mirror, Mirror or Spock's Brain? Is it Star Trek IV or V? How about the TNG episode Justice v. Yesterday's Enterprise?"

You can't really compare a single episode with an entire season.

Also, there's a difference between quality and tone. As badly written as Star Trek V was, it's still one of the most Trekkish stories every made. TNG season 1 was pretty bad, but it still had all the elements that make Trek what it is.

For a more thorough answer, feel free to browse through the earlier comments that were made on this topic. We've discussed it to death a dozen times already, and I doubt repeating those points of the 13th time is going to clarify anything.

"Star Trek is whatever anyone wants it to be...people whining about Picard not being 'Star Trek' sound like kids screaming cause they couldn't have ice cream for dessert. Don't like it? Don't watch it."

You're being rude, you know that?

As for your final quip:

Enjoying this show and saying "this isn't Star Trek" aren't mutually exclusive.

@William Matheson
"I'm starting to think, if I want to watch Star Trek, I should watch The Orville. I haven't seen any of its Season 2 yet, and I found the first season rather enjoyable."

You should.

The general consensus is that season 2 is better than season 1.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 4:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: The Menagerie

@Booming

My point being that the real-world reason for the miniskirts in TOS has nothing to do with what you stated. It was an actress who requested it. I'm sure the male executives didn't complain, but it wasn't their idea (let alone their "demand").

The cultural context is also important. In the 1960's, miniskirts were actually a feminist symbol of independence. I know this sounds crazy for the modern ear, but it's the truth.

In summary, any way you try to spin it, you can't blame the TOS producers for this. It looks laughable today, of-course, but that's another story.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 4:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: The Menagerie

And the miniskirts were actually Grace Lee Whitney's (Janice Rand) idea.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 3:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Gerontius
"Anyway, enough of this nonsense. Let the Covid19 crisis restore a sense of proportion."

I wasn't aware of the fact that our sense of proportion had to be restored.

Is there any particular reason why people shouldn't discuss a TV show on a forum specifically dedicated to that TV show?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 5:54am (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Tim C

"Rather it's asking a question: how does someone like Picard act in accordance with his oft-stated lofty values, even without the backing that came with being a Starfleet captain?"

A question that's definitely worth exploring.

My problem with STP is that it gives a depressing and non-inspiring answer to that question.

Sure, sometimes reality is indeed that cynical. It is certainly *possible* for a forceful wise captain to turn into a brain-damaged shell of his old self and to be treated like a mumbling idiot by everybody else.

But what is the POINT of showing us this? How is this an intelligent exploration of the question you've posed? And what kind of twisted mind would write *this* as the closing character arc for an iconic character?

Reminds me of Icheb's eye-scream scene. At least that was over in a few minutes. With Picard it stretches through the entire season, and that's just painful to watch.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 5:02am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Dreadnought

@Sarjenka's Brother

I'm with you. This was a very good episode. Season 2 in general had quite a few gems.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 5:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Booming

"But I guess it is possible that, in the future, old people could to some degree become 'the other'. If non working phases become longer and longer for old people up to a point that they are too big a burden (Not my opinion, utilitarian thought which is dominant in western societies)."

People are already doing this now, and have done this for decades.

"Most of us have older relatives that we love. That creates a direct emotional connection to the older generations which more or less prevents prosecution on a larger scale."

There are many possible forms of discrimination. Most have nothing to do with "prosecution".

Besides, when it comes to the elderly, the end result might often be the same via neglect. Way too many people die in some nursing home, alone, with nobody (including their own family) giving a f*** about them.

"Most politicians are old."

Fortunately. This may well be the only reason why no country who pondered to sacrifice their older population in the current crisis, actually went through with it.

"i can be sure that my group will treat me better. That kind of thinking is deeply ingrained in human beings."

Indeed. And this might have been useful in ancient times, but it's backfiring on us now that we have a global society.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 3:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Booming

"Jews or Kurds are discriminated because they are seen/defined by culture as the other. That is a different form of discrimination and I would argue the far more destructive/exploitable one."

Two of the worst genocides in history are hardly a typical example of ethnic discrimination. Yeah, the discrimination of the elderly isn't that bad, for the simple reason that you've chosen extreme examples to make your point.

Besides, as I've already mentioned, the elderly ARE viewed by many youths as "the other". It's illogical and absurd, but that's the way it is. Since when is prejudice logical?
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 3:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

Oops. Please disregard the orphan line at the end of my previous post.

@James White

This is a Star Trek site. I'm sure many people here are aware of the situation. I most certainly am aware of it.

It just never came up until now, because it wasn't relevant to the conversation.

Speaking of which:

You gotta wonder how Picard's Season 2 is going to deal with this real world craziness. The same goes to Orville Season 3 as well.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Booming

"And we should not forget that there is a fundamental difference between a group we will sooner or letter be part of and a group that you either part of or not."

Logically, you would be right.

Unfortunately humans are not known for being logical. The treatment of old people in modern western society is downright awful. It's absurdly illogical, but that's the situation.

@Gerontius

Yeah. I thought of that example too. Kodos the Executioner would feel right at home on present day Earth.

Oh, how I wish we still lived in the days when a good Picard morality speech meant something.













In other words there never were and probably never will be death camps just for old people being old.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 12:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Firestorm

Surely you can buy it somewhere else?

Whatever you do, do it quickly. The way the world is going, you might not be able to get deliveries home for a very long time.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 11:52am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S1: Firestorm

@Booming
"I found it mildly enjoyable. Maybe the cabin fever is setting in. "

Don't worry.

Firestorm is the best episode of the first season. Your reaction to it is perfectly reasonable given your past reviews :-)
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