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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 1:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

I think there's a fundamental difference between literary sci fi and TV/film sci fi: A sci fi book does not need a budget of tens of millions of dollars to get published. Also, by definition, the literary medium requires the reader to actively imagine the world he is reading about. You can't just turn off your brain when you read a sci fi story in book form.

OTOH most of the TV/movie sci fi we currently have, isn't really sci fi at all. It's just a huge visual spectacle created by mega-corps to milk the masses of their money, using a thin sci-fi skin as the medium. Two big exceptions of this are the Orville and the Expanse, but these - really - are the exceptions that prove the rule.

This is true for other genres as well, by the way. For years now, 90%+ of all TV shows are little more than coorperate-created trash.

I'm not saying there aren't *any* good shows. But they are very few in number. It's amazing how difficult it is to find something watchable, in a world with hundreds of channels and countless streaming services.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:52am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Trent
"Regardless, I can't think of any other show running now that, like Orville, taps into the same vibe as 1950s anthologized SF, especially with its sense of wide-eyed, homespun, farm boy awww shucks earnestness, of the kind you found in a lot of early juvenilia (before SF novels were a thing)."

Why say "1950s anthologized SF" when you can simply say "TOS"? ;-)

That's the series that the Orville reminds me the most. The show may resemble TNG visually, but it is far closer in tone to the original series.

The Orville is basically a TOS pastiche augmented with some of the newer storytelling techniques A/B plots, dramatic elements, character arcs) and updated to deal with current day issues (the dangers of social media, or the difference between denouncing extremism and hating the extremists as people).

Sure, it's goofy at times, but so was TOS. And you know something? I think our era is in a desperate need for a TOS-like show.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 12:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Bert
"Gil, if you hate it so much that your comments are such vitriolic hatred that they turn into trolling, stop watching it."

Look who is talking... Isn't that exactly what you're doing on the Orville threads?

But honestly, I agree this has gone far enough. I think Jammer should start deleting posts which are nothing but vitriol on the threads of both shows. Disliking a show is one thing. Posting vitriolic mockery and starting wars is quite another.

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 2:55pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Booming

The real problem with some of the haters isn't the negativity par-se, but the fact that they aren't supporting their opinions with anything. There's a difference between posting a seriously thought-out negative opinion and outright mockery.

Unfortunately, there are too many people - both among the fans and the detractors of Discovery - who don't understand this difference. So we have childish hate rants from one side, and people who get personally offended by every single negative opinion on the other side.

Gotta say that niether of these things is conductive to having a civil discussion.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 1:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Booming

No need to be an ass about it.

I doubt many people here are surprised by Jammer's rating of this episode. We've already had 3 JJ-Trek movies and 20 Discovery episodes to realize that Jammer's view of what Star Trek is is very different from (say) mine.

The warmongerers (from both sides) may find this hard to believe, but it's okay for somebody else to like something you don't. That doesn't make that guy stupid, nor does it make him shill. The world would be a much less interesting place if everybody had the same opinions.

And to all those who come here looking for a fight: Just stop it. Your posts are niether productive nor are they amusing. It is these warmongerers that are the problem, regardless of what TV shows the like and dislike.

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 8:04am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Brian
"I am still unfortunately willing to turn my brain off and enjoy this new star trek for what it is."

You know something? I wouldn't mind "turning off my brain" if the stories and the presentation were enjoyable to me.

But I don't find it enjoyable at all. I can't sit through more then 30 seconds of this show without a million things bugging me. The show claims to be prequel but it is way too trigger-happy about making new sh*t up just for the sake of making new shi*t up.

I used to say that I don't like Discovery because of continuity and consistency issues. But that's inaccurate. The truth is, we Trekkies can fanwonk an explanation to almost anything, if the show gets us to CARE about its stories.

For example, I could dream up a dozen excuses as to how Spock had a step-sister we've never heard of before. I just don't see the point in meddling with the history of an iconic character in this manner.

This is, really, my problem with the entire show. They've failed to convince me that they're adding depth to an already existing universe (which - by the way - is something that ST:Enterprise succeeded in doing from the first minute).
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 8:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

For all we know, the Moclans may well be part of the Union.

Remember that this isn't the Federation. It may well be that the Union is a loose alliance similar to the UN. And God knows that even the most backwards countries can join the UN...
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 7:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Trent, Joseph

One thing I liked about the depiction of the society in "Birthday Cake" is the writers didn't just make them a bunch of brainless idiots.

The society on Regor II is a flourishing technological culture. They have advanced medicine. They initiated a call for first contact and where properly curious about meeting the people from the stars. And they are actually quite open minded when it comes to accepting different ways of life (like the Union's economic system) as long as it doesn't clash with their dogma.

Even the guards at the camp (with one exception) weren't depicted as evil people. One of them was just a sadist, but the others mostly left the prisoners alone. At no point were we given the impression that these people are either evil or stupid.

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate what they did in that episode. Same goes to the treatment of the Krill religion and to the season 1 finale "Mad Idolatry". It's one of the things that the Orville actually does better than the show it pays a homage to.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhis
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 2:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Saru's Ganglia
"...Discovery turns frogs gay?"

I knew it!

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 11:08am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Bold Helmsman

I have better things to do then to justify myself in front of people who debate dishonestly and/or come here looking for fights.

Go find yourself another victim.

Thank you.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:00am (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@SlackerInc
"It's ambiguous. I don't think he would have necessarily seen it as espionage to send classified information home."

My point is that the Union would definitely make this point explicitly clear to the Kaylons before agreeing to put an observer on one of their ships.

You do have a point regarding Isaac not seeing this as "espionage". Fair enough. But it's still a breach of contract. And given the end results of this breach of contract, I don't see how this line of thinking absolves Isaac of any wrong-doing.

Doesn't mean he cannot be forgiven or redeemed, of-course.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 6:39am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Paul

Different people may be attracted to Star Trek for different reasons. That's cool. But it is also cool for an individual to dislike a Trek series when it no longer delivers the kind of entertainment he wants. And there's nothing wrong with being disappointed and even annoyed when something you enjoyed for 40 years is no longer enjoyable.

Look... love it or hate it, Discovery *is* doing many things differently. That's an objective fact. People are allowed to dislike the specific kind of changes that the show is making. This does not make them elitists. Nor does this make them old farts that resist any kind of innovation in the franchise.

You want to know what I'm tired of? People who make gross generalizations and make a habit of trivializing what's important to others by erecting strawmen arguments. You know... things like claiming that the vocal detractors of Discovery expect '60s cardboard sets and that they will rage quit just because the phaser outputs aren't exactly right.

The funniest thing about this latest point, by the way, is that Discovery usually gets those little useless details right (like Spock's room number on the Enterprise). It's the big things they get wrong, like giving us a genocidal emotional Sarek and lizardmen Klingons.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 8:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Yanks

It's a pretty subtle reference, actually.

In the beginning of "Happy Refrain", Finn tells Isaac that she is "writing a paper on the use of nanosynthesis in Xelayan tissue regeneration". Later in the same episode, Talla gets her physical (after avoiding it for some time) and Finn tells her that "every test is letter perfect".

Perhaps that was to subtle and overly clever as a reference. But at least it proves that the writers did remember this plot point when it came to writing the episode.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 8:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Tim C

"All I really do care about is that when people start to throw around speculation and rumours, they base it on some kind of reality that we all can share."

Here we agree completely.

"The fact that I'm watching Discovery on Netflix every week, and the great big 'A Netflix Original Series" banner that appears before every episode, is all the evidence I need that they are still paying *something* for DSC."

Why?

They've already payed over 100 million dollars for the production of season 1. They pretty much jump-started the show all on their own, while also indirectly helping CBS to launch their own streaming platform.

So the way I see it, CBS owes them big time. And Netflix aren't run by idiots. I highly doubt they would have payed this kind of money for a deal that requires them to spend tens of millions of dollars every year just to keep the show.

"As we've seen with the recent cancellations of the Marvel Netflix shows, they are not afraid to cut a popular brand away if they don't think they're getting a favourable deal."

They've already payed for Discovery, though. They might as well make the most of their purchase.

BTW I don't think that Discovery is flopping on Netflix. It is probably doing alright. But there's a difference between "doing alright" and justifying a yearly $100M+ investment to keep the show running.

There's simply no way that Netflix is doing this.

@SixDifferentWays

New commenters are definitely allowed.

But when three of them come within 48 hours and the first post of all three to mock another poster, it doesn't take a genius to realize what's going on.


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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 7:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

I'll have to watch part I again, but it was my impression that Isaac was the one who opened the classified sections of the Orville's computer to the boarding party. Without him, they would not have been able to start their attack.

But let's say I'm wrong. What, exactly, is the alternative that you are proposing? That the Union actually allowed Isaac to transmit classified information to his own planet? Or that Isaac transmitted this information without the crew knowing?

The former option doesn't make any sense. Since when do foreign Observers gain access to military secrets? Had the Union agreed to such a thing, they would have been as stupid as Bert claims they are.

And the latter option makes Isaac guilty of premeditated espionage. I guess we can't rule this out, but I don't see how it makes Isaac's character any easier to redeem/forgive.

I would very much prefer to take the straightforward interpretation of what we've seen on screen: It was an Odo/Female Founder situation. Back among his people, Isaac's momentarily made the wrong choice. Perhaps he rationalized it to himself in a way similar to your own argument ("They'll probably get the codes anyway. Resisting is not logical.") but it was still the wrong choice.

BTW I don't think that Isaac ever decided to betray the crew of the Orville. Throughout Identity 1, he seemed to just be going through the motions. You can see his hesitation. Not a human kind of hesitation which is full of confusion, but the kind you'd expect from a computer who can't decide between two alternatives. He is unusally passive throughout these scenes, and I think this was intentional.

And he remains in this passive/hesitative state until the airlock scene in part II. That was the point, I think, where he snapped out of it.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 7:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

There goes another one of those "new guys" [Nicsha]. I wonder... how many of them will we see here before the day is out?

As Spock would say: Fascinating.

@Dave MN

Let me ask you a question:

Have ME ever revealed a fact that was both:
(1) Surprising
(2) Found later to be true?

I mean, something that's a little less obvious then "CBS tried to milk Netflix's money in devious ways... again!"? A journalist shouldn't get credibility points for stating that sun has risen in the morning...
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 6:33pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Bert
"And yes, I actually watched the previous episodes today"

Really?

You've watched 6 episodes of a show you hate in a single day? I don't believe you. Especially when one of these episodes directly deals with Isaac's character and tought us quite a few things about his relationship with the crew (and specifically - with a given crewmember).

You, sir, are trolling us.

"I am not flabbergasted that someone would enjoy this show. Nor am I flabbergasted that some people enjoy being whipped in a dark basement. "

Bortus would like to have a word with you ;-)
(but he had ENOUGH injections already!)
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 6:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Tim C

Do you have any evidence at all that Netflix payed anything up front for the second season? Surely if there was such an agreement, CBS would have proudly announced it?

Is there any evidence that Netflix is pleased with DSC performance? Them listing the show as "#4 to watch with the family" doesn't prove anything. Have you actually read the press release you've linked to? It's not like they've said that the show is ranked at #4 in the ratings or any other meaningful measure.

In fact, to me that press release reeks of desperation. Since when is Discovery a family-friendly show? To me it looks like Netflix put the show on that list in a desperate attempt to get more viewers. Not surprising, given that a show needs to be wildly successful to offset an investment of $8M per episode.

I agree with you that Dave's rumors are baseless. But your own rumors don't seem to be any more believable.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 5:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

Here we go again...

"New commenters" who never posted here before, chime in for the sole purpose of attacking other people. The second time (at least) in the past 48 hours.

An IP-check on these guys should prove interesting.

That said... :

Dave, this isn't the first time you're posting strange rumors about Discovery. Is this one from Midnight Edge again? Talk about a show with no logic... Why can't your taste in youtube videos be as refined as your taste for sci fi? ;-)


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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 3:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

"You know the best part? All these Trek gatekeepers lately inhabiting Jammer's boards would have diametrically opposed opinions on DIS and ORV, if Orville were the official Trek series (with some cosmetic changes, of course) and Discovery were the unofficial Trek copy/love letter/choose your description."

You know the best part?

That the people you like to bash as "Trek gatekeepers" are openly saying that this Orville vs. Discovery thing is pointless and stupid. And it is people like you who are trying to refuel the fire and the warmongering.

Enough of that already!

By the way, if Discovery weren't an official Trek series, I wouldn't be praising it. In fact, I wouldn't be talking about it at all. The only reason DSC gets any kind of attention from me, is that it is officially part of a franchise I've been a fan of for 30 years. Why on earth would somebody talk about a production he has zero interest in?

"Just how it wasn't about TNG when it premiered back in '86 or about DS9 when it first aired in '93,..."

Just a reminder: I've happily embraced all the new Trek shows as they came, including Enterprise (which quickly became a favorite of mine). Discovery, on the other hand, completely turned me off the franchise. And I'm not alone on this, so your "analysis" is clearly off-base.

Of-course you would known this already, had you bothered to actually read the reasons that people like me gave for disliking the show. But having an actual honest debate that relies on actual facts was never your strong suit, was it? With you it's always strawman like "the haterz want '60s cardboard sets" or "you're mad that ship X has phasers type Y" or whatever. Never ever did you actually address (or even acknowledge) any of the points that were made by the detractors of Discovery here.

Gotta tell you, you're not doing Discovery any favors with your strawman-based arguments.

BTW It's funny when you are accusing the old timer fans of nostalgia and fear of change when Discovery has the most fan-wonky premise that was ever devised. Just in case you have forgotten, it isn't the classic fans who pushed this show to deal with Sarek and Spock and Mudd and Pike. The creators of this show are buried far deeped in the nostalgia stew than any fan could ever be.

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 3:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Bert
"what I find most hypocritical is that Brannon Braga, the Satan himself is running this gig. You know, that is the guy you lot have been pissing hot acid vinegar on for years, the destroyer of Star Trek. "

Who, exactly, is "you lot"?

Can't speak for anyone else, but I really liked ST:Enterprise. I don't really get the hate against Voyager, either.

I also find the hate against Braga to be completely irrational. It's funny, really. The guy wrote some of the best Trek epsiodes... Then he decided to turn Paris and Janeway into sex-loving space lizards, and all his past good deeds where forgotten by the haters. I suppose once you go gecko, you never go backo.

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 2:53pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Identity, Part II

@Bert
"Reading these comments I feel like I have entered some alternate reality where The Rock has just won his third Oscar for Jumanji. I watched these two episodes after giving up on Orville a long time ago, seeing that people here talk about it as if it is the second coming of Jesus. But man, it takes some big circle jerking to make this into some sort of Best of Both Worlds. Just look at the ending..."

Oh, cool! A person with a dissident opinion who is actually going to explain their view and start an interesting discussion.

"...Captain Neelix ... Commander Cocktease ..."

*sigh*

Guess not.

(though I find it amusing that "Neelix" has become a derogatory name. Do people really find him *that* annoying?)

@Dave MN
"I will say this: the high dramatic stakes of ID1&2 might not have worked for you, but the online consensus seems to suggest most people thought otherwise."

Neelix comparisons not withstanding, I gotta be fair towards the guy here. The main reason "Identity" is such a great story, is that they've done a full year of character work that sets the entire thing up. Taken on it's own, it is nothing more than a run-of-the-mill robots-turned-bad plot. A well-made version of the trope, no doubt, but nothing really special.



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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 2:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@Lynos
"did Talla really say 'my parent made me practice it, that's why I didn't get laid' "

I've completely missed it on first viewing, but it seems that you are right.

The jokes were really terrible in this one, weren't they? This specific one is made even worse by the fact that Talla is *Xelayan*. Given what we already know about the species, does anybody here find it believable that someone on Xelaya would be tagged as a nerd for playing an instrument?

It's like Seth undid all the progress he made as a writer during season 1.

That said...
@Chris
"I believe it would improve if Seth McFarlane would step back and do less. Let better writers take the characters and see what they can do."

Here's what they should do in my opinion:
1. Allow everybody on the writing team (inlcuding Seth himself) to pitch general plot ideas.
2. Let Seth write the first draft of a story based on the agreed-upon plot idea.
3. Let one of the seasoned sci fi writers (Bragga, Goodman, Cherry) revise the draft into quality sci fi story.
4. Have Seth translate the story into a perfectly-paced script.
5. Have someone else look over Seth's script and mark all the spots where the humor was cringey/out-of-place/inappropriate.

Try to imagine some of the previous episodes getting the above treatment. The astrology planet episode, for one, would have easily been a 4-star classic.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 1:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@Chrome
"By the way, folks, can we get a moratorium on The Orville/Discovery fights in here? It's pathetic and something I expect to see in a YouTube comment section, not Jammer's Reviews. "

Agreed.

There are viewers who like both shows. There are also viewers that dislike both shows. And even if you like one and not the other, this pitting of one show against the other is stupid.

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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Mar 7, 2019, 10:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Blood of Patriots

@SlackerInc
"There was some stupid, cringey stuff, some cliche stuff, but also some good elements."

Yup. That's pretty much sums it up for this one. 2.5-2.8 is about right. Kinda meh overall.

I'll give the episode credit for one thing, though: It did hold my interest from the first to the last second. It was at times cliched/cringey, but it was never ever boring.
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