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Trent
Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 8:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

Jason said: "Frankly I am a little surprised at you agreeing with Trent's borderline equivalence between Nazis and allies - you always seem more hardcover anti fascist in these situations."

German Imperialism of the early 20th century - barred by the other Empires from pillaging Africa, and expanding at home - was but the Imperialism of the Allies squeezed into a shorter, more violent time-frame.

And so while there are obvious differences between Naziism and the Allies, their capacity for evil was the same. The British Empire killed over a billion in India during the Raj. The French and Brits were raping Africa and the West Indies (and even after WW2, these Empires fought long and bloody campaigns to avoid relinquishing these colonial holdings to subjects they once treated as Hitler treated the Jews). Everyone was raping Indonesia. The Americans were wreaking havoc in Latin America and China (later they'd drop more bombs on Vietnam than Hitler ever constructed), the latter carved up along with the French and Brits. The Japanese wouldn't have become techno-fascists if not for the forced market reforms of the Americans. The Aussies were raping the Aborigines, the Kiwi the Maoris, and the Allies of course had marriages of convenience with psychos like Stalin, and various Middle Eastern puppet monarchs, the latter of which would lead to a further century of inconvenient problems. And as late as the dawn of the 20th century, places like Canada were still massacring native Indians.

There are countless other examples (and counter-examples: the Imperialism of the Axis and Allies in some places "positively" introduced practices with overthrew barbaric customs of indigenous peoples, either directly - the white man banning the practice of sati [widow burning] in India or the caste system in Nigeria, or indirectly, like Hitler's Naziism "leading" to emancipation movements which toppled British/French colonies).

Anyway, my point was simply that the idea that Imperialistic Fascism is beat with the arms, resources and power won through violence, murder, plunder and exploitation, is the wrong lesson to draw from WW2. If Imperialism is largely caused by economic factors, and how these factors intersect with ethnocentric, political and religious factors, then you stop it by more, not less, "Federation values". More sharing, more caring and more understanding. And you keep an a-bomb in your back pocket just in case as a last resort ("But if you have an a-bomb? Why share and care? Why not Take!").

I always thought a more interesting DS9 would have contrasted how citizens under the Federation live to that of the Dominion. Imagine a Changeling envoy being granted asses to Federation worlds ("See, we don't hate or persecute! We even have many non solid members: here, meet Ambassador H20 of Aquawet IV!). That would be pretty cool.

You can still have your traditional war story afterwards. But take the time to first show how the Feds differ from historical Empires. Otherwise, what's the lesson?
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Mal
Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 8:29am (UTC -5)
Re: ANDR S1: Harper 2.0

Awesome catch @eastwest101 ;)

Lexa Doig may be the hottest woman ever to star in a scifi show. The writers must have loved that line!
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Trent
Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 7:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: Nor the Battle to the Strong

Surprised Jammer gave this one 4 stars.

I like the core idea of this episode. I like the idea of Jake as a Norman Mailer/Hemmingway/James Jones type, immersing himself in combat for a story, and coming out irrevocably changed.

I like the low-key exaltation of Bashir and the other medics, who put themselves at risk and through hell to save lives.

I liked the last scene, where Jake exposes himself and so his cowardice through his writing, and receives praise from his father; good art, and emotional honesty, are their own kind of bravery.

There's also a great scene with Bashir, who immediately takes control of the situation when he sees an unhinged Jake snapping at some joking doctors. Once he takes Jake aside, Bashir then immediately softens, and attempts to help the troubled kid.

(I feel the episode missed a trick by not having a little scene between Bashir and Sisko. It would be interesting to see how Sisko reacts to Bashir appologising for endangering his son.)

But while this episode might play well on paper, or as a radio play, and while it has some really powerful scenes, I think the direction and production design let it down tremendously.

The underground sets look hokey, almost all of the secondary cast act poorly (a few nurses aside), and the director's attempts at "gritty medical turmoil" feel like a cheap knock-off of a 1990s ER episode. The attempts at combat are similarly hokey, with exploding puffs of smoke/powder, Jake and Bashir's comical falling, dopey falling rocks, and clownish Klingons.

There's also an odd WW1 or WW2 vibe to the episode, characters not quite behaving like far-future medics and soldiers. And most of the episode's scenes are the kind of generic fare war movie buffs know inside out.

This material can look better - the famous director Sam Fuller specialized in making low budget war films and morality plays like this, all effective on a shoestring budget, largely thanks to tough, spare scripts - and should have been tightened up.

The danger, though, is that in dressing episodes like this up, you lose a very special aspect of Trek. You want the theatricality of an episode like this, the stageyness, the stiltedness, the heightened power that a certain abstractness engenders in the audience. But this abstractness is add odds with realistic, gritty, literal portrayals of combat. The styles don't mesh. So how should you film a script like this?

Kurtzman Trek would gloss an episode like this up with bombastic music, camera work, slicks effects and action, and IMO this would lead to something much worse.

I think a better approach would have been to strip this script down further. Don't let anyone go outside the caves. Don't show any outside combat. Set everything underground, black the lights out in the caves and tunnels and have the action unfold in the feeble pockets of light afforded by little candles and lamps. Have injured folk constantly beaming into the underground outpost - a never-ending march of the dead and dying, which troubles Jake - and film the medical action in silence, with more Jake voice-overs.

For excitement, have the Klingon's constantly advancing through the tunnels and being met with technobabble armored doors. The Feds hold a door, fail, and fall back to hold another, the Klingons slowly closing on the last door and so the medical outpost.

Unless you're a Sam Fuller or a Kubrick (think Paths of Glory), you ain't gonna shoot impressive ground combat on a shoe-string TV budget. So why try? To this episode's credit, it knows this, and wisely to focus on psychology, and the effects of combat, but it needs to be tighter. And you can't constantly be breaking up the narrative momentum with scenes on DS9 of guys talking about decaffeinated coffee.
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Booming
Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 4:07am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

"but so much could or would have gone terribly wrong before that which could have effectively ended the war before then"
As they say in the states woulda coulda shoulda. :)

" Maybe Churchill's books on the series are biased"
Maybe... As one historian wrote: In Callahan's view, Churchill was guilty of "carefully reconstructing the story" to suit his postwar political goals.

"No documentaries I have seen about the Battle of Britain suggest that it was some cakewalk -"
As I said between the defeat of France and the invasion of Russia there was a short time were the Axis was superior in some areas. In 1943 on the other hand most major German and Japanese cities were already what the historian calls "completely destroyed". Germany and Japan as the upstarts could get some wins in during the first two years of major warfare (mid 1940- mid 1942) but after that the complete superiority in every area became more and more overwhelming. It was the time span GB and the USA needed to convert their much larger economies from peacetime to wartime and mobilize their populations.

"Frankly I am a little surprised at you agreeing with Trent's borderline equivalence between Nazis and allies - you always seem more hardcover anti fascist in these situations."
In these debates I'm always reminded of what Michael Shermer said about scientific training. It makes it really hard to not see objective reality, if it is pleasing or not doesn't matter.
I wouldn't say that there were "good" countries on either side but the allies definitely included the better countries. It is true though the Nazis copied the race laws of the southern states in the USA. GB let millions starve to death in India in 1943. The Soviet Union under Stalin did (insert horrible crime here). The Allies weren't knights in shinning armor but compared to the Nazis and imperial Japan they were the better side. A somewhat free press and an equally somewhat fair legal system (for some), a certain hesitancy to actively murder millions. It was good that they won. :)
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Nota Name
Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 12:35am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: The Immunity Syndrome

@okrad del diablo

You have some serious anger issues, racism issues and a glorification of violence. Your way is clearly “the American way”. Democracy through the barrel of a gun, other cultures can go F themselves in the face of our superior might....

Why you watch Star Trek at all is hard to fathom, and I say that as a fairly right wing individual myself. Roddenberry’s pacifism annoys me at times, but I don’t go around hating on an entire race with an interesting and well developed culture. God forbid anyone like you would ever represent our species, you’d get us all killed because someone looked at you wrong or failed to recognise the superiority of humans (the deep irony that you have a god complex toward humans (and Americans I suspect) while hating the Vulcans for the same.

It’s reactionary, low-intelligence bullshit of the highest order, and your comments in this thread where you are violently hating on Spock (wanting him slapped harder until he bleeds) are deeply disturbing, to say nothing of cowardly (anonymous Internet thug talks violently about others, yawn). I worry for whoever you live with, no doubt if they looked at you wrong you’d give them a slapping too.

Seriously, get help. And by the way, I don’t love Vulcans, I’m not a pacifist or a serious Trek fan, so don’t try and misdirect toward those things. This is about your unpleasantness and nothing else.
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Austin
Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 12:10am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S3: Harbinger

Butt.
2/4
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Silly
Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 12:06am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S6: Riddles

This one is a winner because of Russ’s great acting, and his and Phillips’ acting. 3 stars.

Could have been better. Less of the “find and deal with the aliens” plot- who cares?

Also, I don’t think the name “Tuvix” is spoken once in the episode, a dreadful omission considering how much dramatic meat that could have provided. Tuvok and Neelix could have come to terms with that experience in ways they probably hadn’t.

And this Tuvok might well accuse Janeway of murder for splitting Tuvix, and Neelix would have been interesting standing there whether he agreed with Tuvok, agreed with Janeway, or was torn himself.
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Jake
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 8:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Sxottlan - If they do bring Badgey back at least the show will be conforming to a Trek tradition, along with Keiko, Alexander, Wesley, by having at least one incredibly annoying character. Unfortunately Lower Decks also deviates from tradition in that most of the other characters are annoying.
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Lee
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 7:26pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

My god Keiko has to be hands down the most annoying character on this entire series. Are they're actually any episodes she's in where she's not pissed off the entire time? Like my god, I hate negative people and watching her drives me crazy. Miles could tell her he won the lottery and she'd still be pissed off. It also pissed me off how selfish she is, making him out to be the bad guy for not being able to see his daughter for an entire year. I was hoping he would have told her go ahead and go back spend as much time there as you want but Molly is staying with me this time.
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Austin
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 7:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S3: Stratagem

Only 1 minor complaint. You build this elaborate fake shuttle, and don’t double check it for potential weapons? Really? Other than that, 3 stars for me as well, I also saw the double twist coming, but it was satisfying, particularly due to some great acting by Degra. That whole episode hinges on a great performance from him, which he thankfully rose to the occasion.
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Austin
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 6:45pm (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S3: Chosen Realm

The biggest divide in Britain after the arrival of Christianity was the heated debate between Celtic and Roman Catholicism. The core division? The calculation of Easter, which was only about 7-10 days difference. Never mind the fact that Christ told his followers to commemorate his sacrifice and not his resurrection, so both sides were wrong and were steeped in pagan fertility customs by the 4th or 5th centuries. I don’t think the divide between factions here is any more unbelievable or stupid than our actual history. That being said, something in the execution was just.... meh. Voyager did something similar but better with “Savior,” but this still kept my attention and moved the plot along a little, 2.5 stars from me.
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Jason R.
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 6:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

Well Booming I don't doubt that once the USA enters the war that is a game changer - but so much could or would have gone terribly wrong before that which could have effectively ended the war before then. Maybe Churchill's books on the series are biased but I certainly didn't get the impression from them that Germany was an easy opponent. No documentaries I have seen about the Battle of Britain suggest that it was some cakewalk - indeed but for Hitler letting himself be goaded into the blitz (rather than continuing to hammer the RAF airfields) it seems the RAF would have been vanquished and Operation Sea Lion was potentially in play. As I see it if GB falls either militarily or by suing for peace, there is no chance of victory against Germany USA or no USA - D Day is gone.

As for the Japanese, my impression is that they were much more of an upstart against the USA but then again they had some amazing tech with the Zero fighter that far outclassed the Americans and had they wiped out the USA carriers at Pearl Harbor who knows?

Maybe we are again running into another translation issue with the "underdog" expression. Frankly I am a little surprised at you agreeing with Trent's borderline equivalence between Nazis and allies - you always seem more hardcover anti fascist in these situations.
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Booming
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 6:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

@Jason
"I am not trying to be difficult here but the French lost."
Sure, doesn't mean that France didn't have a better army. The Sickle Cut was just batshit crazy. It was an incredibly risky gamble.

"I mean the Iraqis might have had more ground troops than the USA in the Gulf War but who cares? The Arabs also had a ton more men and tanks than the Israelis during the s?Six-day-war - big deal."
The first example is obviously off and in the second the Israelis were definitely the underdogs.

I'm not sure if we are actually debating the word underdog. What I want to say is that Germany and Japan could have never won that war. If the BEF would have been annihilated maybe GB would have sued for peace, maybe but probably not. It's like with the Confederacy. They beat the USA in what 10 battles in a row. Didn't matter. Lee remarked after Fredericksburg that this victory meant nothing because the USA could easily replace the losses.

The moment Japan attacked the USA and Germany declared war on the USA as well (even though the Japanese never declared war on the Soviet Union) both Japan and Germany were doomed. The GDP of the USA was bigger than that of all Axis powers combined. Russia alone had more soldiers than all the Axis powers combined. From then on it was just a matter of time. The only thing that could have saved them... Prophets. :)

"They were hardly churning the things out like gumballs!"
They kind of did but it took a while. The span between Pearl Harbor and Midway was what, seven month? Takes a little longer than that to build Carriers.

Wouldn't it have been cooler if the Dominion had been as strong or maybe even somewhat weaker but still won at first? Or Proxy wars...
But they went with the most simplistic option. Big unstoppable empire has to be stopped. I found the Klingon war far more interesting. It made no sense because the Klingons don't border the Cardassians but hey the Federation supported a former enemy for zero political gain because it was the right thing to do.
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Jason R.
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 2:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

@Booming I am not trying to be difficult here but the French lost. The Nazis marched through Paris. However you want to slice it the Nazis were superior where it counted. This wasn't a plucky underdog defeating a superior foe - the French were wiped out and the British nearly got annihilated at Dunkirk. No one after Dunkirk thought Germany was an underdog.

I mean the Iraqis might have had more ground troops than the USA in the Gulf War but who cares? The Arabs also had a ton more men and tanks than the Israelis during the s?Six-day-war - big deal.

As for the Pacific theater, I may have overstated my point when I said the Americans couldn't win if the carriers had been sunk at Pearl Harbor but it is a fact that destroying the US carriers was the primary objective of the Japanese at Pearl Harbor and had they succeeded it's arguable that the Battle of Midway in particular would not have been the decisive victory (or any victory) and the turning point of the war.

I am hardly the first person to suggest that the failure of the Japanese to sink the American carriers at Pearl Harbor doomed them. And I note that the Americans had just 3 carriers in 1941 at the time of Pearl Harbor, the same number they fielded at Midway. They were hardly churning the things out like gumballs!

Finally why are we talking about "heroism"? I didn't say the Allies were heroic for the record (although they certainly were). I am just disputing this suggestion that the Axis powers were underdogs in WW2.
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Patrick D
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 1:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

"Roga Danar? Get the f*** out of my face with that."--Ensign Mariner
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Flipsider
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 1:32pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Really seems like the Family Guy of Star Trek. Just like Family Guy it's very reference heavy and polarizing, people either love or hate the humor. For me, I never cared for Family Guy and I dont care for the writing in this show either.
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Booming
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 1:26pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

@Jason
You are not debating me but reality. I posted the numbers above.
It is not revisionist history.
The French had more and better tanks but these tanks often had no radio and were supposed to be coordinated by flag commands which obviously is not a good solution. They were also used as infantry support and not as separate units like the German army used them. The Maginot line wasn't build up to the channel because of Belgian protests and the French military deemed the Ardennes impassable for a larger force which made the Sickle Cut possible.

Yes, the Germans had better/very risky strategies !because! they were inferior. They left very little troops in Poland on the Soviet border, while the French had their troops everywhere. For gods sake, in 1935 Germany basically didn't have an army and no air force. What do they teach you in Canada?

"So yes, I am taking serious issue with this revisionist history casting Axis powers as the underdogs in this"
Can you take it down a notch. Don't worry the Nazis still lost the war. If you want to believe that Nazi Germany was this gigantic empire and those plucky soldiers of the tiny British Empire stood against it, fine.

"And on the Pacific side, awfully lucky that America's carriers were on exercises during Pearl Harbor and weren't sent to the bottom of the ocean. No carriers = no chance of victory against Japan."
What?! Can you research this stuff before you post it. At the end of the war the USA had 28 heavy carriers and 71 Escort carriers. In 1943 with or without the original carriers the US would have had superiority in this area.
This is not about heroism or anything this is about industrial capacities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_World_War_II#/media/File:Carriers_ww2_by_country.png

@Top Hat
Thanks.
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Jason R.
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 12:30pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

Yes that was the exchange I was thinking of. I will add that with the wormhole, the Gamma Quadrant was effectively directly adjacent to Bajor which was basically Federation space by that point.
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Top Hat
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 12:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

From "The Jem'hadar":

TALAK'TALAN: Indefinitely. Commander Sisko will serve as an example of what happens to anyone who interferes with the Dominion.
KIRA: What kind of interference are you talking about?
TALAK'TALAN: Coming through the anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the galaxy.
DAX: You're making a mistake if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant.

It's odd that everyone, including the Dominion themes, seem to forget about this claim.

I'll grant that it's probably rhetorical excess on the Dominion's side, and let's not forget that they could probably collapse the wormhole (or mine it on their side) if they really and truly wanted to keep the AQ powers at bay.
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Jason R.
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 11:42am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

"The Dominion flat out told the Federation that *any* incursion into the gamma quadrant was a violation of their territory."
When did they do that?"

I believe it was in the episode The Jem'Hadar when the Jem'Hadar beams into ops with the Bajoran datapad and informs them that the Dominion considers any incursion into the wormhole as a violation of their territory. Then Dax responds that they won't be dissuaded from exploring the Gamma Quadrant.

"They were from start to finish. Maybe the short phase between the defeat of France and the attack on Russia.
The French army was bigger and better equipped than the German army (apart from the air force) and there the was the BEF as well. Not to forget the Maginot line.

The French were just lead very badly and made some grave strategic and tactical mistakes. Same is true for the Red Army in 41, less so in 42 and after.
When the USA joined, the production of the Allies vs the Axis was around 10 to 1."

I'll concede that the Allies were the incumbent powers after World War I and may have had some paper advantages. But the incumbent always has a paper advantage at the start.

But the Germans innovated heavily on the technological front and of course invested in the Luftwaffe to become a dominant air power. Their defeat of France was not just due to French incompetence but innovative German strategy coupled with game-changing technology such as the Panzer tank which just circumvented the Maginot Line via Belgium completely surprising the French who were apparently still fighting WW1.

You could point out that the British navy outnumbered and outclassed the German one but who cares? By the time of the Battle of Britain the Luftwaffe dwarfed the RAF and air power was what mattered in that theater just as sea power (specifically carriers) was what mattered in the Pacific theater.

I could point out fairly plausibly that had someone other than Churchill been in power after Dunkirk it's likely Britain would have sued for peace with Germany. Even assuming the US still enters the war do you see D-day without Britain? Nope.

And on the Pacific side, awfully lucky that America's carriers were on exercises during Pearl Harbor and weren't sent to the bottom of the ocean. No carriers = no chance of victory against Japan.

So yes, I am taking serious issue with this revisionist history casting Axis powers as the underdogs in this. I concur that the Dominion is probably not a perfect analogy for the Axis (the Axis never had the kind of overwhelming advantage in numbers and resources of the Dominion) but then again, I never saw the Dominion War as a proxy for WW2. The comparison with Nazis was more in political philosophy I think vis a vis the Founders.
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Yanks
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 10:21am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

"Veritas" - S1, E8:

I enjoyed Kurtwood Smith and John de Lancie in this one. This was fun, but I won't rate it quite as high as the last few; I guess I've become accustomed to having part of the show centered on one of our main characters. I liked the twist of this turning into a party at the end. All our leads were in character and Tendi showed once again she can fight! TONS of trek references, and I mean TONS of them! I'll go 2.5 stars for this one. Still enjoyable, just not as high as recent episodes.
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Booming
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 9:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

"The Pacific Ocean comprises 30 percent of the Earth's surface. The Gamma Quadrant is 25 percent of the galaxy. Close enough."
I meant it in the sense that even if the Dominion would control all of the gamma quadrant it wouldn't border the Federation while the USA border the Pacific.

"The Dominion flat out told the Federation that *any* incursion into the gamma quadrant was a violation of their territory."
When did they do that?

"As for the Axis being the underdogs in WW2 that is a little hard to swallow but I suppose it depends on the time frame. After the fall of France and Dunkirk? Very hard to swallow."
They were from start to finish. Maybe the short phase between the defeat of France and the attack on Russia.
The French army was bigger and better equipped than the German army (apart from the air force) and there the was the BEF as well. Not to forget the Maginot line.
The French were just lead very badly and made some grave strategic and tactical mistakes. Same is true for the Red Army in 41, less so in 42 and after.
When the USA joined, the production of the Allies vs the Axis was around 10 to 1.
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Tannhaeuser
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 8:15am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Tuvix

The crew's change of reaction to Tuvix when they figure out a way to separate him is entirely believable and very human. This was very well explored in the TNG episode of Mark Twain. They found the five hundred year old Data's head in the mine. There was this wonderful conversation between Riker and Troi about death and then Data showed up and the conversation stopped. Data asked them why people changed their behavior lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X5FXl_55VQ
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Jason R.
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 8:10am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ship

"That is not really comparable. More like Japan declaring the Chinese sea/East Asia their domain."

The Pacific Ocean comprises 30 percent of the Earth's surface. The Gamma Quadrant is 25 percent of the galaxy. Close enough.

The Dominion flat out told the Federation that *any* incursion into the gamma quadrant was a violation of their territory.

As for the Axis being the underdogs in WW2 that is a little hard to swallow but I suppose it depends on the time frame. After the fall of France and Dunkirk? Very hard to swallow.
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Lynne
Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 5:13am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: The Emperor's New Cloak

I disliked every mirror universe story, some more than others. I like Kira, but Evil Kira is galaxies away from secy. Watching her vamp is more cringe making than watching her cry.
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