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Nick
Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 5:33pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

@Paul M, the CGI copy and paste was lazy for sure, but didn't ruin the scene for me. A bunch of identical ships may not be as visually appealing but at least it makes sense in-universe. If you build a fleet of ships at the same time for the same purpose, there's no reason to think you wouldn't build a bunch of identical ships assembly line style. Its the most efficient approach.

@greycat, I agree. The writing is definitely uneven though. Jammer said it in his review, it's hard to believe the writers who gave us that Picard and Data scene (which was excellent) gave us those stupid space tentacles minutes earlier (which was unbelievably dumb).

That was my biggest gripe. It would have been way more interesting if nothing came out and you are left to wonder what would have happened or maybe you see something but it's not clear what their intentions are. Instead, we got space tentacles (to reinforce to the five year olds in the audience that what they are looking at is EVIL). So dumb.
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Nick
Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 2:45pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

Also, Riker coming in to save the day was awesome. Frakes stole that scene. I'll admit I re-watched that about 5 times.
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Nick
Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 2:41pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

I'm holding out hope that Picard can turn it around. I didn't think the first season was great, but it wasn't terrible either. The acting talent is better, the series has more of a "sci fi" feel to it, and the themes and issues they explored had more substance compared to Discovery (though admittedly, that is a VERY low bar).

While I wouldn't say the writing was excellent, it was at least more cohesive throughout the season. I didn't get the sense (like I do with Discovery) that every hair brained idea the writers had got thrown into the script. Somebody was at least trying to check for quality control and consistently. Most importantly, the season didn't crash and burn at the end. I did have issues with the finale, but the scene with Picard and Data was the best scene in NuTrek by a mile, so it had redeeming qualities. Whereas the season finale of Discovery was just a massive disappointment from every possible angle.

The nicest thing about STP is people aren't having unprofessional outbursts all the time or breaking down sobbing while screaming "YOUR MAKING THE RIGHT DECISION, WHAAAA".
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Nick
Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 9:33am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

Somewhat on topic, I watched the Ready Room for the season finale which had SMG, Olatunde Osunsanmi, and Michelle Paradise and during the interview each one of them started crying at one point when talking about how amazing the show is. It gave me insight into why the characters act like they do on the show (frequent outbursts, constant crying, etc.) and also made me realize that my criticism that "nobody acts like that in real life" might be unfair. Some people really DO act like that in real life.
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Nick
Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 10:08am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

@Grey you realize Adira is not a real person right?
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Nick
Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 7:42am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

I don't enjoy bad mouthing DSC either. I actually thought this season started out with a lot of promise and had some decent episodes at the beginning. I wasn't overly critical of the show until the Su'Kal episode. Season 3 really crashed and burned at the end IMO. The writing got worse and more lazy as the season went on. By the finale it felt like they didn't even care anymore.
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Nick
Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:19pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a serialized season in 13 episodes. Enterprise did some micro serialization with a bunch of stories in 2-3 episode arcs and I thought it worked quite well.

I often wonder if the people who like Discovery are not really science fiction fans, or if there's something about the show I'm just missing. It kind of reminds me of the Arrow or Flash TV shows. They aren't bad shows, but it's basically mindless action and the plots don't make any sense for the most part. Absolutely nothing of any substance and certainly nothing thought provoking. It's entertaining enough if you go into it with the right expectations.

I think the reviews of the end of season three were mixed or negative but there do seem to be a decent amount of people who liked it which leads me to believe I'm missing something.
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Nick
Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 12:15pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

@Jammer, great review! Agree with pretty much everything. I am curious what types of shows your wife likes? Is she a science fiction fan? I'm curious how many people out there (if any) like serious sci fi shows such as BSG and the Expanse and also like Discovery.
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Nick
Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 5:42am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

@SlackerInc

I can't comment on the TOS points, I'm ashamed to admit I haven't watched most of those episodes. But the points seem pretty accurate for all the other series. I would personally but VOY ahead of ENT but they are similar in points which I think is fair. As a high level gauge it makes sense with TNG and DS9 in the top tier, VOY and ENT in the second tier, and DIS significantly below.
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nickf
Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 10:09pm (UTC -6)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

I watched the first episode of Lower Decks tonight over at a friend's house, and I have to say I found it to be juvenile nonsense, and painfully unfunny. It was a real struggle to make it through the episode. If you're entertained by it, good for you. I won't be watching again.
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Nick
Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 8:13am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

@MarkG @ Maq,

The weird thing about that is, there was no need for that ridiculous idea of the holodeck taking the hypospray away since they ended up staying there a lot longer than they originally planned. That's what I don't get about the writing sometimes. I understand why the writers might throw in something that doesn't make sense if it's needed to advance the plot. But many times they throw in these non-sensical things for no reason at all (as far as I can tell). It just feels lazy and sloppy. It really feel like nobody is QCing the final product.
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Nick
Fri, Jan 8, 2021, 1:36pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

Count me among those who liked Lorca in S1. Issacs is a good actor and at least they worked at it from a story standpoint. They planted the seeds for that early in the season and portrayed him pretty consistently throughout as a pretty ruthless guy. At first you think it's cause they are in a war, but nope, he was just biding his time until he could figure out how to use the spore drive to get him home. So the underlying story made sense (unlike the Voq thing).

In general I liked S1 of Discovery right until they got back from the mirror universe and made the Federation on the verge of losing the war. I think that was a poor decision and the way they wrapped it up made no sense at all. But up until that point it was a good season.
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Nick
Fri, Jan 8, 2021, 8:22am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

To echo other people's comments, I'm done with Discovery too. I might come back if there's a big shake up of the writers and show runners. Booming nailed it when saying this show is aimed at making people feel instead of think. There is absolutely nothing in this show that is thought provoking.

I'll give Picard another season and I actually like Lower Decks, and I'll give S31 and Strange New Worlds a chance, but I'm done with Discovery.
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Nick
Fri, Jan 8, 2021, 6:51am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

It's really sad because this season started out with a lot of promise and some of the episodes early on were pretty good, then it all turned to crap at the end. I'm going to go on another one of my anti-Michelle Paradise rants and say she needs to be fired. It's clear she has no understanding of what it means to make a good sci-fi show. There's also no consistency in anything this season. Discount Seska goes from cartoon, to more sophisticated, back to cartoon. Plot points are introduced that go nowhere (Adira and Gray) or are just dropped (the music thing). Central premises of the season (the burn making travel hard) are waived away at a whim (oh, there's a trans warp tunnel between the Federation HQ and the dilitium planet). Big things like the Emerald Chain are introduced and not really fleshed out. In one episode, the Emerald Chain seems like Discount Seska's personal gang of thugs. In another, it seems like they are a larger organization. In the final episode, there's one line about how it just collapsed. Ridiculous. It's like the writers aren't talking to each other. Either that or that every hairbrained idea is just thrown into the script and jumbled together. Nobody is checking for quality or consistency. In my mind this is the fault of the showrunner.
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Nick
Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 1:09pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

So, list of weapons that star ships use:

- Phasers
- Torpedoes
- And the most powerful ... pesticides (but only if you target a ship's "intakes").
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Nick
Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 5:14am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 2

So starting off with the good, the FX on this show is absolutely stunning. I liked all the exterior shots of the ship and I also liked the sets of the ships interior, though as others have pointed out, having the turbo lifts flying around in this wide open space doesn't seem like a very efficient ship design. Discovery must be a lot bigger on the inside than the exterior view would suggest.

I was also fine with Burnham being captain at the end, I mean, the show is already all about Burnham, she may as well be captain. I still wish they would de-emphasize her character.

I also appreciated that they tried to give a little more detail on how Su'Kal caused the burn, but I'm not sure it really makes that much sense. Based on their explanation all the dilithium on the planet should have also been rendered inert, but I guess that dilithium is OK? I also wasn't entirely clear on how diltium has a "sub space component". Maybe it does, I don't know, I've never heard of that before.

Now for some things that didn't make much sense:

- How did Discount Seska know about the disguised shield emitter thing? The only possible way is if there was a mole in Starfleet, maybe they are saving that plot point for a future season? I doubt it though, as the writing doesn't seem that sophisticated.

- So the Vulcan fleet comes, somehow "blocks" Discovery's escape routes (I guess space isn't that big or 3 dimensional) and then just let's them go? What was the point of that from a plot standpoint, shouldn't Discovery have just escaped?

- Burnham's plan was then to have the bridge crew make the ship drop out of warp so the Vulcan fleet can catch back up, what's the point here? Isn't this the same situation as the beginning of the episode? I didn't really get the point of that.

- Discount Seska shuts off life support, but slowly, so the bridge crew will die, but still have enough time to cause trouble? Again, doesn't make sense.

- I'm not sure I really understand the data core room and how it works, I've never seen this concept in Star Trek before. Why was the bridge crew trying to go to the bridge if the data core room is all powerful? What was that weird moving wall that Burnham got pushed into and then came back out of?

- Burnham was able to beam all the regulators off Discovery immediately, but Discount Seska couldn't do the same with the Discovery crew?

- How did Burnham and Wheelchair Guy have enough time to come up with that plan to have Book use the spore drive? Were they talking before? It didn't seem like they even met before that scene. Also, it felt like a dangerous plan, nobody seemed to even know if it would work. I did like the idea of Book being able to use the spore drive, it's pretty consistent with what we know about it and with Book's character.

- It's kind of weird that the Emerald Chain ship is big enough to hold Discovery (which is also pretty big based on the turbo lift scenes) and can also fire its weapons at something inside its cargo hold.

- Why did Discovery have to dump their warp core and blow up the Emerald Chain ship, couldn't they have just jumped away? Seemed unnecessary.

- How was Grey visible to everyone on the holo deck? So the ship's computer can read Adira's mind and basically project her thoughts as a physical manifestation on the holodeck. What's weird is that this wasn't even needed to advance the plot, they just threw it in for some reason.

- I also didn't really like how they glossed over all the world building stuff at the end. So the Emerald Chain just "fractured" without Discount Seska? Seems kind of odd for an organization that large. I guess this means we are done with them, they will never be mentioned again?

- I didn't like the Su'Kal character, he came across as a whiny, annoying child, which I guess was the point. Not very interesting for me.

- It seemed really weird to place all this emphasis on the Dot robot saving the Lt. It's just a robot? Also, what was the point of the Dot robots, they didn't seem necessary to advance the plot.

Overall I was bored by this episode, nothing about it was thought provoking or entertaining. I did like the FX, but that's it.
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Nick
Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 4:45am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

@Frank, I agree with your comments on Burnham. She's always been a mediocre character but I actually really enjoyed season 1 right up until they returned from the mirror universe and she didn't start to annoy me until her "this is Starfleet" speech at the end of season 1. Like you, I was mostly fine with her in season 2 given Pike, Spock, and some of the other things going on. She has definitely gotten on my nerves more in season 3 and has become a focal point for all my gripes about the show. But I'm not sure if the issues with her character are a result of her acting, the writing, or the directing. Whatever the reason, if Discovery is going to improve, they need to jettison her or stop making her the focus of everything. It won't solve all the show's problems, but it's a step in the right direction.

I think the Expanse is an example of a good show where the lead character, James Holden, is not that great. He's not bad, but pretty uninteresting. The show succeeds because the world building is excellent and incredibly detailed, the plots are excellent, and many of the supporting characters (Chrisjen Avasarala, Amos, Bobbi, etc.) are outstanding.
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Nick
Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 4:38am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: Su'Kal

@Yanks, I was referring to the quality of the show, not ratings. Admittedly, this is more subjective, but I think there's general consensus that TOS, TNG, and DS9 were all really good, VOY was OK but a step down from those three, and ENT was either similar to VOY or another step down.

@Slackerinc and @Dave

So I just started my re-watch of ENT beginning with S3. It was so refreshing for all the characters to have lines and scenes (they even had a scene with the MACOs and they all had lines, amazing!) The episode was enjoyable enough but there was one really bad scene where Tucker was massaging T'Pol who basically had a low key orgasm. I forgot how stupid that show could be at times.
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Nick
Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 5:00am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

@Booming, great point. A transwarp tunnel that goes from the nebula straight to Starfleet HQ in a matter of minutes. Convenient! Soooo, Starfleet could have used this transwarp tunnel at any time to find a dilithium planet minutes away from their HQ?

The idea that the burn made space travel really tough for everyone was a central premise of this season which they just hand wave away at a whim.
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Nick
Sat, Jan 2, 2021, 8:11am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

@Booming, you are right, it's just frustrating for me cause there are some things I like about the show and some of the core concepts are really interesting and could be really good if only they fleshed them out more. Oh well.
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Nick
Sat, Jan 2, 2021, 3:58am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

@Booming, it's also possible that Vance wasn't reading the full treaty, but more of a synopsis of it. Given his role managing the day to day of Starfleet, he is probably the most knowledgeable about what's going on in the galaxy and in the best position to determine if the concessions they are making are reasonable. He would then present their offer to the President and if there's general agreement on both sides on the big points you kick it down to the lawyer types to hammer out the details. It's also possible that the President was never serious about this offer and didn't want to waste anyone's time, so he just told Vance to handle it and make her go away, which he did. Again of course, I'm 100% speculating.

I personally don't have a problem from a storytelling standpoint of keeping those scenes centered on Vance, he is the best character on the show after all. And they did throw in some lines to try and justify his role, but unfortunately the storytelling is so shallow you never get too much detail about anything. Like so many other plot points, this would have worked so much better if they just fleshed it out a little more.

@Dreubarik, All your points are valid, I do think the idea of the Chain seeking the "legitimacy" of the Federation is an intriguing concept, the problem is the concept is in a vacuum. So for it to make sense, you have to speculate on the circumstances instead of the show telling you the story. This would be easier If we knew more about the Chain as an organization and the problems they are facing, but the only things we know about them is that they run trading outposts, have slavery, strong-arm pre-warp civilizations, and are running out of dilitihium. So, not much.

@dave, personally I think Michael saying she loved Book was a death sentence for him. You can't have the superhero of the series tied down with a man to look after. Michael's time is very valuable and can't be wasted on a relationship when the galaxy needs repeated saving. Also, just think how much emoting SMG can do when Book dies, I bet it has the showrunners drooling.
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Nick
Fri, Jan 1, 2021, 2:19pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

I would counter the point about the Admiral where maybe his role is to take a large amount of information and distill it into key points to present to the President and give advice. It's not like the president is going to read the entire thing, so somebody has to. Not sure that would be a Starfleet admiral instead of secretary of state like figure though. Also, to @Brian's point, you never saw higher than Admiral Ross through the entire Dominion war, despite some very large decisions being made.
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Nick
Fri, Jan 1, 2021, 1:02pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

It kind of feels like teen soap opera storytelling, where the highlights are the emotional scenes and the plot mostly functions as a vehicle to get you from one emotional scene to the next, so you don't spend a ton of time developing it.
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Nick
Fri, Jan 1, 2021, 12:54pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

@Booming, great point on the one person per side, in reality there would have been hundreds (if not thousands) of people on each side working on a deal like this for years. It's not something 2 people hammer out in a room for a couple of hours. In terms of Vance, it's possible he was never going to seriously consider the Emerald Chain's offer and just used the trial thing because he knew Discount Seska would never agree to it. Again, total speculation because obviously none of that is in the show.
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Nick
Fri, Jan 1, 2021, 12:31pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S3: There Is a Tide...

It's kind of frustrating cause I feel like this could work if they spent work building up the Emerald Chain and giving more detail on exactly what's happening. The storytelling is awful, like it's just a bullet point outline instead of a final product.
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