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Sean Hagins
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 5:00pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S6: Muse

A very good episode. Different-and I wouldn't want the entire series to be like this, but it makes a nice change. I like how the episode ends without telling us the patron's reaction. Will he lay aside his pride and warmongering ways? Let us hope so, but we will never know.

I too liked Kelly Waymire-I always thought she was quite talented-and cute too. A shame about her early death, but I believe in the bible's promise of a resurrection, so soon she can live again.

Despite the lack of flashy things one associates with sci-fi, this episode is typical Star Trek to me. It is entertaining, and also shows us that we can put aside pride and violent tendencies if we decide to.

I don't have the problem with Harry Kim that many have here, so I didn't mind his last minute appearance-in fact worrying/wondering what happened to him for most of the episode adds spice to the show!
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Iceman
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 3:28pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

@OmicronTehtaDeltaPhi-

I concur.


@Springy-


Yes this episode was preachy-no denying it. However, I'm more than fine with it. Some situations just require it.
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Iceman
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 3:24pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part I

@Springy-

You're not wrong about the time travel logic. This is one of those episodes where you have to suspend your disbelief, big time. It makes no sense, even by Star Trek standards.
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Lara Spenzak
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:06pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

@Peter G.

I think it would have been progressive and novel if Beata had the fling with Troi or Tasha instead of Riker. That would have been more natural to me. The society of Angel One established that women can be in power. We don't need men running everything for us. The sexual encounter with Riker makes Beata take a submissive position and veers away from what her society has achieved. The episode ends with the notion that women "need" men and that was disappointing.
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Jason R.
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 1:09pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

"No, that's Star Trek for you pretty much from the get go. ... and least since TMP. "

I gotta disagree. In most of Star Trek from TOS through to Voyager, the stakes were rarely so grand as the whole galaxy. Indeed, in TNG with a couple of exceptions (eg: the borg) even the Federation was not really at stake in most episodes.

The same holds true for most of the movies by the way, although I tend to give movies a pass on this because there is a tendency to want to up the drama factor with a film.

But I agree with the previous commentator that a galaxy ending threat is tiresome for a series. Certainly that's not how the best trek series approached things. It would be nice if Trek could get back to some exploration, some wonder. They had a drive that could take them *anywhere* in season 1 of Discovery and as near as I could tell, they went *nowhere* and discovered nothing.
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NCC-1701-Z
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 12:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@Peter G: Star Trek Enterprise Season 4, "Divergence"

Ironically, in that very episode S31 got played for chumps.
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Shannon
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 11:29am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

OmicronThetaDeltaPhi wrote:

"Oh, well... at least we still have the obvious shills to amuse us. I just love it when people who never posted here before, drop by to post a single comment that basically says "stop moaning. I'm a longtime fan of Star Trek and I find Discovery fantastic. Besides, it's just a TV show". Yeah, a longtime Trekkie saying that it's just a TV show... really believable ;-)"

Oh you mean like yourself and The Orville which you seem to bring up every other day? Please get off your high horse and engage us here in the Star Trek discussion as equals.
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Yanks
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 11:08am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@John Harmon
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 1:17am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

"Saw the new trailer for season 2. Spock says:

“Something is going to kill all sentient life in the galaxy”

Cool, so glad they’re doing another season long plot about a hilariously, impossibly huge catastrophe. It can’t be something small. It always has to THE END OF EVERYTHING every time. That’s Alex Kurtzman for you. "

No, that's Star Trek for you pretty much from the get go. ... and least since TMP.

"Also glad to see everyone knows what Section 31 is and that they have their own Starfleet shaped badges, despite not being affiliated with Starfleet in any way and not actually being an organization so much as a handful of lone operating domestic terrorists. "

You need to reread the Charter, Article 14, Section 31. There are a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat.

Section 31 has and always will be part of Star Fleet.

"These writers/producers/show runners have no clue. Expect nothing new in season 2. Star Trek is no more and will never be again"

Oh poo poo... shooting it down before even seeing it.

It's obvious this season will have a different tone from the trailers, but you refuse to see the effort to make this feel more like trek.
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Lara Spenzak
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 11:05am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Angel One

"Angel One" has a bold, interesting premise and a great deal of potential. But its undermined by the sexual relation between Riker and the Beata, the leader of Angel One, a world ruled by women and where men are acknowledged not to be as smart or capable. Since IT IS Troi who is addressing Beata and speaking on behalf of the Enterprise, it would have made more sense for Beata and Troi to have seduced each other. Or perhaps Tasha who Beata would have recognized as a strong, female authority. But no, we get the same old, "boy meets girl" routine.
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Springy
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:38am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Life Support

Some thoughts after reading commentary:

I thought the most interesting discussion in the ep was the discussion around whether Winn should lie to Bareil, and claim she doesn't need him, so he'll agree to stasis. Though Winn's motives are not noble, she's not wrong when she decides not to lie to him. Lying to him removes his agency, i.e, his ability to knowledgeably decide his own fate. To lie to him would be grossly disrespectful to him and wrong.

Kai Winn is happy to have him as a fall guy, yes, but it's also very clear that she prefers success, and really needs him and can't handle the negotiations alone. (Is this why they turned her blonde? To count on the "dumb blonde" stereotype to explain why the clever and conniving Kai is suddenly an airhead?).

How would Bareil feel, to wake up a year later, say, to failed negotiations and negative consequences for Bajor, because he was lied to? Is he a full person, with full rights . . . or not?

So . . . who's suggesting taking his "spark" away?

Though the B plot was jarringly "lighthearted" it actually did fit in, here, in an ep that's basically about agency - individual rights, the ability to decide for oneself . . . where does it start and end?

Very sick people, robots, female Ferenghi, Bajoran prisoners (detainees?) on Cardassia . . .

Notice how Jake "imprisons" Nog to force him to talk. Is this ok? Is it ok for Odo, as a professional, to lie to Nog, and go along with it all?

So anyhow, there is a thematic tie in for both A & B plots, even with those "secret negotiations" (a couple of people making decisions for many . . . the Kai is an elected official . . .) which also include discussions of prisoners.
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Yanks
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:17am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S3: Chosen Realm

David, that's laughable on it's face.

Let's look at the Islamic's attacks world-wide since 1979. I'll let you remember the significance of that year and Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

Not just against those "evil" white men either.
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Springy
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:20am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Life Support

Watching and commenting:

--First thought on seeing the opener is that the ep is going to focus on the Kira-Bariel relationship, and I'm resisting the desire to label it "snoozefest" too soon.

--When did the Kai go blonde?

--Huh. I've been spelling Buh-rai-ul as Bariel. But I guess it's Bareil? Where the e had a long i sound? No. It's Bare-I-L, I guess.

--This "death" of Bareil makes me think of the Dorothy Parker quote from when she heard that Calvin Coolidge had died: "How can they tell?"

--Leanne is very cute. But Jake is bringing Nog on the date?

--This wimpy, unprepared portrayal of Kai Winn is hard to buy. She is nothing if not a meticulous schemer.

--If they replace parts of Bareil's brain, he'll lose his spark? Dorothy Parker comes to mind yet again.

--Nog treats women like slaves, but this is an cultural difference, a "disgusting habit" Jake can overlook as long as they don't double date. Worrisome, but certainly realistic.

--Nana V doing a good job on her goodbye scene, but this relationship wasn't well defined. I'm not moved, as I would normally be with such a scene.

Average fare.
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John Harmon
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 1:17am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

Saw the new trailer for season 2. Spock says:

“Something is going to kill all sentient life in the galaxy”

Cool, so glad they’re doing another season long plot about a hilariously, impossibly huge catastrophe. It can’t be something small. It always has to THE END OF EVERYTHING every time. That’s Alex Kurtzman for you.

Also glad to see everyone knows what Section 31 is and that they have their own Starfleet shaped badges, despite not being affiliated with Starfleet in any way and not actually being an organization so much as a handful of lone operating domestic terrorists.

These writers/producers/show runners have no clue. Expect nothing new in season 2. Star Trek is no more and will never be again
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lavenderchartreuse
Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 12:39am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S1: Cold Front

My husband watched this one with me. We were both struck with the thought that it seemed like Archer would have been blown out of the cargo bay in one quick poof, especially since he was taken by surprise that the bay doors had opened, so he wasn't braced for it. Additionally, we thought that no one could hold one with just one hand.

My husband asked "wouldn't it have been freezing in there almost instantly?" Anyone want to take that on? Archer certainly acted like he had to catch his breath, but didn't act like he was freezing.

Also, wouldn't the cargo bay have equalized in pressure pretty quickly, allowing weightlessness? For me, I thought that would mean that the hand tool wouldn't have "fallen" out in space; it would have stayed on his hand or floated within reach. My husband said that momentum from the initial blow out would have sent it in that direction, so he didn't think it was odd.

Aaaand, just because Silik could survive in space...wouldn't he have been victim to the blow out at the time the cargo bay doors had opened? Or did I miss a special super power that he has already got? What allowed him to stand by and wait to make his dramatic exit by jumping?

As you can see, I'm more interested in the silliness of the cargo bay situation than the silliness of the time-travel-storyline-that-goes-nowhere.

Overall, I didn't really enjoy this episode much. I usually love time travel episodes, but this one didn't seem to solve anything and didn't have much for me to chew on or reflect on afterwards. Where are the time twists that come back on to itself? Why would a time traveler who professes to be protecting the time line tell everyone about what is going on? It just wasn't that fun for me; I was mostly annoyed.
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Booming
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:47pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@ Omicron
to quote from wiki:" A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."
There was actually a person who complained about Dis being SJW(search for it). Jangus clearly didn't use a straw man argument. ;)
And your second last paragraph and last sentence are also a little strange. Is your opinion more important because you are a valued elder of the trek verse? :o
I have to admit that it is pretty early in the morning and I am !extremely! drunk, like super drunk... drunk... blarb
Oh and don't worry about dying neurons there are like an endless amount, like a lot, it is a huge number... yeah
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Springy
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:21pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

@Peter G

Keiko, up to this point in TNG or DS9, has yet to be portrayed as a harpy.

In this episode, she starts out tired and irritated after a long trip that included dealing with Lwaxana Troi. This disappoints Miles. She and Miles are both on edge and have some minor communication issues, snipping at each other a bit. But then they go out for a nice dinner. Things are going well, but during dinner Miles disappoints Keiko with his angry reaction to her desire to stay two extra months, and there's a bit more snipping.

Miles regrets his anger, and very sincerely apologizes through the bedroom door. Keiko, still hurt from Miles' angry outburst, asks for time to think. She realizes how wonderful what he has just said to her was, and she puts on his favorite red dress to go find him and tell him how much she loves and appreciates him.

They're all happy smiles when they say goodbye.

That's how it played for me, and I'm mystified by the comments about Keiko being bitchy, divorce on the horizon, etc. They clearly love and appreciate and are physically attracted to each other. They've both made sacrifices for one another, over the years. They love their child. They have a good marriage.

While I agree that it serves no good purpose to portray Keiko as a harpy, I disagree with the notion that she has been portrayed as a harpy.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 10:19pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

@Elliot
"I just see that the writers failed to draw a connection between the fictional economy of the 24th century and the economic problems depicted in the story."

That's because there really isn't any connection.

The 24th century economy (however it works exactly) hinges on the fact that they have the technology (replicators etc) to sustain a post-scarcity society. This kind of tech simply didn't exist in 2024.

In other words, that wasn't the point of the episode at all. Neither is this an episode about rivaling economic philosophies. It's amazing how easily people read political agendas into stories that have a very simple message:

Have some compassion for your fellow human beings. Don't lock up thousands of people behind walls... and then forget about them.

Sounds obvious and superfluous? Look around you. Look what's happening in care-centers of the elderly, orphanages, hospitals, prisons. This kind of thing happens all the time, yet very few people care about it. It's not just "the government" but the citizens as well (and I'm speaking from personal experience here).

Bashir summed it up nicely when he said this:

"Causing people to suffer because you hate them is terrible, but causing people to suffer because you have forgotten how to care? That's really hard to understand."

THAT was the point of the episode.

BTW not having a solution to the problem at hand is not an excuse to do this kind of thing to people. Not having a solution does not give us permission to make things worse, nor does it give us permission to dehumanize them.

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Springy
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:44pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

Hmm. Was surprised to see the rave reviews for Part 1. The story was fine but this two part offering is not up there with the great Trek eps, IMO.

I can't imagine getting to a place where I would put a Sisko-centric episode up there with the greats. Brooks is not good. He isn't good in this. He occasionally has decent scenes. He's often truly terrible. It really throws cold water on many an ep, for me.

Definitely, we come up against some of those paradoxes that Janeway always dismissed a giving her a headache, and I always followed her lead. I have no trouble ignoring the paradoxes, or the techno babble, though it did bother me a bit, that they seemed to have come much too close to figuring out a way to easily time travel as they wished, using the transporter.

Yes, indeed, the story was preachy and simplistic, and didn't really show a sophisticated, realistic understanding of mental illness, homelessness, or even human nature, in general. I prefer the eps that aren't preachy and simplistic, but I appreciate and accept that these sorts of "how the Earth became Utopia" eps are a part of the Trekverse.

A good offering overall.
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OmicronThetaDeltaPhi
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:37pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: General Discussion

@Jangus

"This thread is one of the whiniest and obnoxious I’ve seen in a long time. Projection much? I didn’t recognize any of the supposedly preachy or “SJW” elements in DSC..."

Nice strawman you have there.

There wasn't a single person here who complained about Discovery being "SJW" (whatever that term even means. Whenever I type these three letters I can feel another neuron dying in my brain).

@Dom
" I was called a 'gatekeeper' because I argued that Star Trek should be about something other than generic science fiction and stick true to its liberal humanist roots. Can franchises grow and evolve? Sure! But what's the point of a franchise if it leaves behind everything and anything that made us fall in love with it in the first place? "

Exactly.

I'm getting really sick and tired of people playing this "the classic-Trek fans cannot handle anything new" card while completely ignoring our specific points of criticism. There's also something quite ironic in that argument, given that there's nothing really new or bold in Discovery. Sure, it is doing stuff differently than other trek. But does it do anything differently from any other generic sci fi action series that we've seen in the past 10 years?

Oh, well... at least we still have the obvious shills to amuse us. I just love it when people who never posted here before, drop by to post a single comment that basically says "stop moaning. I'm a longtime fan of Star Trek and I find Discovery fantastic. Besides, it's just a TV show". Yeah, a longtime Trekkie saying that it's just a TV show... really believable ;-)

As Garak once said, these guys need to learn how to make their lies less transparent ;-)
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Springy
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

Watching and commenting

--This is well done so far. I don't have much of an affinity for Sisko or Bashir, which makes this less engaging than it could be for me.

--I like that we're having a little Trek Time Travel Fun with Miles and Kira.

--Well, lots of political comments come to mind. But I don't wanna go there.

--And all's well that ends well. The ending "How could they have let things get so bad?" asks Bashir. Ah, Julian.


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Springy
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:15pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part I

Watching and commenting:

--Transported through time. That's a new one. Wow. I'm not looking forward to 2024.

--Hard not to notice how close 2024 is to now, and how much doesn't match reality, and what does.

--A cure for schizophrenia by 2024? If only, Bashir.

--Nice contrast between the Sanctuary area and Dax's opulent surroundings.

--Major technobabble, paradox stuff it's best not to think about, i.e., the usual with time travel eps.

--Interesting so far. On to part 2.

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Iceman
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: Crossover

@Springy-

I'm a bit late, but this was an interesting discussion. I'm a DS9 person all the way. It's easily my favorite Trek series and one of my all time favorites. That being said, I don't see *that* big of a gap in objective quality between DS9 and TNG (which is also one of my all time favorites). They just have different ways of telling their stories. TNG is very cerebral and intelligent, and it possibly has more all time classics than DS9 (though not by much). DS9 was undoubtedly better at character work (though TNG had some great stuff with Picard, Data and Worf), which I personally gravitate towards more. I will also say that the first two seasons of DS9 are definitely its weakest. You may feel differently by the end of the run. I must disagree with you on Voyager, however (We probably agree on Enterprise though-it was mostly awful). Though I wish it had committed itself to delivering on the potential that its premise suggested like DS9 did, I can accept that it didn't need to in order to achieve greatness. That said, I just don't think it had the characters or consistency necessary. Its first season was pretty good in my opinion, but the second and third were mostly disasters. Its fourth and fifth were its best, but even then, those would still only count as mid-tier TNG seasons. Its sixth and seventh just ran out of steam. If you want to read more about this, I recommend sfdebris's reviews or Darren Mooney's on them0vieblog. They explain why I and many others feel Voyager was a disappointment in a way far beyond nitpicking (though I must say, I think Jammer explained himself very well). I must admit though, I do get a little irritated when people say how overrated DS9 is. Yes, on this one particular site, the reviewer thought DS9 was better than Voyager. However, he's clearly not the majority. Most people would say TOS, TNG, or VOY before they'd say DS9. Even on this website, there are many, many commenters (Yanks, Elliott, William B, Patrick, Trent) who feel that DS9 is on par or worse than the other Trek series, and overrated by Jammer (This isn't a slight on you guys btw-even though I disagree, I enjoy reading your comments, and you seem like nice people).

@William B-Don't be sad. Though I believe what Rene Echevarria said about TNG w/r/t DS9 was accurate, it should just make you all the more impressed that TNG so often managed to thrive under those conditions.
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Iceman
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 4:14pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

@Peter G-

The whole subplot is just a depressing drag that tells us nothing new, except further impress on us that the Miles/Keiko relationship should probably end very soon. It doesn't help that the acting is very stilted.
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H0neyBe4r
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 3:22pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: The Maquis, Part II

MORE SPOILERS!
I watched season 3´s "Heart of Stone" today, the Marquis Odo and Kira chase at the beginning turns out to be the female changeling. When asked how she got her hands on a Marquis ship, she responds that Odo cannot expect her to give him all the answers. I am seriously starting to consider that "the changelings were behind the Marquis" was indeed a secret part of the plot.
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Nano
Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 3:04pm (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S1: Haven

Maybe I missed something but how did these people, who were said to be at a 20th century technology level when they wiped out most of their species, manage to build such advanced starships?
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