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Daniel B
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:12pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S5: Gravity

{{ Tangent here, but Trek would've been immensely improved if the aliens had been cast with anyone other than SAG's whites actors. . . . . Give credit to TNG's "Code of Honor." They may have been grotesquely stereotypical, but at least they were more exotic than, say, those wusses in "The Hunted." }}

{{ I'm sorry, but I will never give any credit to TNG's "Code of Honor." }}

It's basically the Galbrush Conundrum, but with race instead of sex. With a large number of never-seen-again AOTW's (Aliens Of The Week), if they were Asian or Black or whatever, the portrayal would probably be considered racist. Which is not to excuse Code of Honor because that one actually *was* racist.
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Brandon Adams
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:10pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S5: The Ascent

This comment thread is filled with soulless Vulcans. These two characters rolling down the side of the mountain with Armin Shimerman howling "FASCIST!!!" at the top of his lungs was the peak of the whole series. Fight me.
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Daniel B
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S5: The Fight

Somehow I watched this episode twice. I'm not sure what was wrong with me.
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MidshipmanNorris
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

I view the scene between Lilith and Riker as not offensive or dangerous, but merely lunk-headed and kind of icky.

It doesn't meet the bare minimum of relevance to the plot and presentation/execution as relates to the rest of the episode that would merit me viewing it as offensive.

Put another way, my chief criticism of the scene is that it's stupid, and I kind of avoid watching this episode cuz a lot of it is stupid to be honest.

The bits about what First Contact entails and how the Federation go about it are interesting but the rest is a bunch of folks with water bottles taped to their foreheads acting so-so-ily next to Patrick Stewart and Co.

I'unno it just doesn't have enough punch for me.
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Nesendrea
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 3:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: The Mind's Eye

“It’ll take time to rebuild your memory, Geordi. A long time. Possibly even a whole week. But no longer than that. Because you’ve got to be 100% back to normal and on-duty as Chief Engineer of the flagship, despite being homicidally hypnotized by Romulans, before the next episode. So let’s get cracking, hmm?”

I kid, I kid. I understand TNG’s episodic nature, even if it does get a little silly at times.

My only real critique of this otherwise brilliant episode is a minor one, mentioned previously by another commenter: Governor Vagh was entirely too certain of Federation collusion with the rebels, with his only evidence at first being the presence of Federation weapons in rebel hands. Ok…and there’s no way that profiteers on the black market illicitly acquired these weapons and sold them to the highest bidder? Picard even mentions this possibility, yet Vagh is unconvinced. Even in the face of findings implicating Romulans in the sort of scheme precisely they are known for! What does this guy have against the Federation?

But again, not a huge point. And a very compelling story otherwise.
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Jason R.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 3:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

I'm reminded of the episode of South Park where Chef had to whore himself to every woman in town to avoid bankruptcy or something. I guess that was a gang rape haha.
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Booming
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:18pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

I don't insist. That is just the legal definition in many western countries. There is of course a cultural perception of what rape is. As it is often the case legal realities and cultural perceptions differ quite a bit. If I would actually give my personal and very unqualified opinion then I would say it is borderline. Riker definitely doesn't look too happy and a little intimidated at times. The worst part. After Riker does the deed he is immediately captured.
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Jason R.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

@Booming as I said, if you insist on calling what happened to Riker a "rape" then I guess rape isn't the big deal I thought it was.
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Booming
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

@Jason
It is not a laughable edge case. According to the CDC 1 in 71 men were raped or suffered an attempt. That is 2.3 million men in the USA alone.
And 1 in 17 were made to penetrate against their will by women. Around 14% of the rapes of men where penetration of the man happens are done by women.

Lots of social stigma about these things.

I don't want to take anything away from the episode, though. It is a great one, just that scene as William correctly points out perpetuates hurtful stereotypes or to put it more lightly didn't age well.
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zanki
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 12:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S6: Profit and Lace

not defending this episode , but Ferengi episodes by design were always cartoony , just insert a looney chase song when the Cola guy is sex crazed for Quark .

Also, like someone mentioned , the Ferengi since episode one of DS9 were established as this patriarchy first society where women had no rights, why is it '' more '' offensive now when it was accepted into lore, it seems that for all vitriol this episode receives ,context has been thrown out the window ....
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Jason R.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:59am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

"I can see the argument that this episode perpetuates that and so maybe contributes to social harm (and to causing harm to certain viewers in particular!)."

I really don't at all.

It's tedious to have to preface anything and everything with a pre-emptive apology to account for some laughable edge case hypothetical and even if the episode was somehow watched by the guy who was coerced into sex with an alien to escape prison I don't believe watching this episode "harmed" him or anyone else, ever.
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Jason R.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:55am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

"I could see the scene basically working with Jadzia, for instance, or another sufficiently adventurous spirit"

Or with Vosh, who agreed to marry Sir Guy of Gisborn under a death threat. Does that make Q a rapist?
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Booming
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 10:50am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

@Peter
Hahaha.

@Jason
Yes, I was referring to legal definitions. I'm not implying that Riker is horribly traumatized even though I kind of picturing him sitting in his sonic shower afterwards staring at the wall with empty eyes, thinking:"Again...." . Also the Federation has no legal authority, so yeah loophole!
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Jason R.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 10:27am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

I should comment that here in Canada we don't even have "rape" in our Criminal Code. It was replaced by the more general "sexual assault" language many years ago.

Although I haven't looked into the motivation behind the change, I suspect it was to avoid the loaded baggage attached to the R word and avoid similar semantic debates and misunderstandings that are manifesting in this thread.

It's really academic whether or not what happened to Riker meets some kind of legal definition. The issue is whether or not someone like Riker would or should be horribly traumatized by being "coerced" in this manner. The answer is no and I am pretty sure most guys watching were not horrified or scandalized because this kind of "coersion" just wouldn't be a big deal to them.

So either he was "raped" and it was no big deal and kind of funny or he wasn't raped. Take your pick.
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Booming
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:44am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

The point is if you can refuse or not. If you can refuse then it would be coercion. The enjoyment of Riker is immaterial. He could not refuse because that would have meant death or other harm.

The FBI since 2012 defines Rape as such:
“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

For the first time ever, the new definition includes any gender of victim and perpetrator, not just women being raped by men. It also recognizes that rape with an object can be as traumatic as penile/vaginal rape. This definition also includes instances in which the victim is unable to give consent because of temporary or permanent mental or physical incapacity. Furthermore, because many rapes are facilitated by drugs or alcohol, the new definition recognizes that a victim can be incapacitated and thus unable to consent because of ingestion of drugs or alcohol. Similarly, a victim may be legally incapable of consent because of age. The ability of the victim to give consent must be determined in accordance with individual state statutes. Physical resistance is not required on the part of the victim to demonstrate lack of consent.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape
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Calvin K.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:19am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

“There is no reason to believe a romp with some random alien, even under duress, would bother someone like Riker, end of story.”

Right, which character is doing it is important. A better female comparison would be Lwaxana Troi, who is notoriously sexually promiscuous. There’s a few episodes where the tables are turned on her for laughs, too.
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Jason R.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 8:12am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

"Really, what is the argument here? That “men and women are different”? Agreed - but are they so different that it’s a bona fide knee-slapper when one of them is sexually coerced, while we turn into righteously outraged paladins the moment that the Same Exact Thing happens to the other?"

Nesendra I didn't see your post before I posted above.

Yes Riker was coerced. Some men would be horrified at being coerced in that context but many (including me) wouldn't. I doubt I am some outlier.

There just isn't anything horrifying about what happened to Riker.

The reason Riker's situation is played for laughs is because:

a) It is funny and

b) There is no reason to believe a romp with some random alien, even under duress, would bother someone like Riker, end of story.
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Jason R.
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 8:05am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

"Double standard" implies that men and women are the same (in context) but since they are not, it isn't (a double standard).

It is 2021, and I still don't see what happened to Riker as "rape" and I doubt I'm in the minority there.
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RonB
Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:26am (UTC -5)
Re: ENT S2: Judgment

Never seen ST IV so I don’t know whether it's a rip-off or homage, but what I do know is that it was extremely boring.

Been there already (like O’Brien on Cardassia), but here there is nothing at stake (we all know Archer will get out), it lacks any interesting development for the characters, and presents weird stereotyped Klingon history / cultural commentary.

When O’Brien was tried on Cardassia it felt like it developed organically from the context of the Cardassian society as it had been presented over the series. It felt natural and believable and was interesting to watch through. Here it is manufactured and barely makes sense.

If the judge / system is corrupt or biased before the trial begins, why does he become suddenly open to fair arguments from the defense at the end? Same with the defense lawyer who does a 180, on the basis of what? Lousy speech from Archer? “It’s all worthless, the system is corrupt, society is in decay etc etc” - “On Earth a few guys made a difference” - “Ok you convinced me! I will defend you with almost no chance of success and risk my life for it, it’s worth it!”

Also tired of Archer meddling in foreign affairs, cow boy style, rather than exploring. I mean, sure, the poor refugees are being persecuted, but I actually agree that Archer is guilty here (if he acted within Klingon Empire space). These affairs should be reported to Starfleet / Vulcan High Command for them to resolve. Archer’s actions here could easily prompt a war with the Klingons. What an idiot, really should not be a captain, especially not the first one to roam the galaxy representing the human species!
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MidshipmanNorris
Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 3:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

I'm gonna just agree with Booming on this one.

I've always thought that Star Trek misses more than it hits with romance; this is a definite swing-and-a-miss. Yuck.
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Booming
Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 3:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

@Nesendrea
I think something is called rape if the victim cannot refuse and Riker cannot refuse. Sure technically he could but that would probably mean torture and death. If she had put a gun to his head would that have been different?

The joke if you want to call it that is somewhat misandrist. It implies that a man cannot be raped by a woman because men always want sex. Riker was horribly injured, interrogated, tortured and then has to have sex in a life or death situation. That he could perform is the real fiction here.

The writers certainly had no bad intent but they kind of stepped into it with the whole scenario.
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Nesendrea
Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 2:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: First Contact

Maybe we don’t need to use the word “rape” to describe what happened to Riker. I do feel the word gets overused, marginalizing the experiences of people who have lived through truly horrific things. But if we acknowledge the fact that we would be appalled if Lanel had been male, and it had been Troi or Crusher in Riker’s place, then I really don’t think we get to see comedy gold in the hospital sex scene.

Really, what is the argument here? That “men and women are different”? Agreed - but are they so different that it’s a bona fide knee-slapper when one of them is sexually coerced, while we turn into righteously outraged paladins the moment that the Same Exact Thing happens to the other?

Don’t get me wrong. If we’re prepared to laugh just as hard at a clearly uncomfortable woman reluctantly agreeing to surrender her body because it’s been presented to her as her only hope of escaping imprisonment, then we’re fine. I won’t even judge if we do that - I’m the guy who cracks Holocaust jokes at parties, and I’m Jewish! I’m just saying that maintaining such a stark double standard on sexual coercion doesn’t give us a philosophically consistent leg to stand on.
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Alan B
Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 9:33am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Elogium

Wow, this thread has been going for a while. One thing I noticed which I don't think has been mentioned, is that Kes's father is supposed to rub her feet.

However, given an 8 year life span, and fertility happening at the age of 5, wouldn't most Ocampa parents be dead long before their offspring had children?

I.e. Kes' mother had her at age 5, when Kes reaches 5 herself, her mother would be 10, and therefore long dead. It would only work if Ocampa males always mated with much older females so they were still around to do the foot rubbing... Entirely possible, but just another bit of weirdness to add to the poor Ocampa.
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Jason R.
Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: Code of Honor

It amuses me to no end that Netflix selected scenes from this episode showing the Ligosians appearing aboard the Enterprise as the preview for STNG when you select the series. Someone has a sense of humor.
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Kevin
Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 9:30am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S1: Code of Honor

I like this episode. Very upbeat and I like how showed how people could fight in the future.
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