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MadManMUC
Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 12:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

Did I say 'step-sister'? I meant adopted sister.
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MadManMUC
Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 12:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Yanks

I think what Booming means is that — up to now — Discovery has been relying too much since S01 on fan-service gimmicks to try and show its Trek credentials. From little things like the TNG/DS9/VOY sound pack on the bridge and to listing Jonathan Archer among the most decorated Starfleet captains, to bigger fan-service things like bringing Pike aboard, to making MB Spock's step-sister, and to actually bringing Spock on.

All of this, rather than finding its own way and voice.

At least ... I *think* this is what Booming means.
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MadManMUC
Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 3:20am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

Well, folks — on a completely different note — I'm afraid our time with Anson Mount's Pike comes to an end after S02 is done:

https://trekmovie.com/2019/03/18/report-anson-mount-not-returning-for-star-trek-discovery-season-3/
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MadManMUC
Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 12:16pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Chrome

'Saving that time inside for developing guest characters like Mudd and Vina likely gives the writers more freedom, but I can't say for sure if that's a good trade off.'

It's about balance, I think.

In the comments a few episodes back, I brought up 'Chain of Command' and, specifically, Gul Madred. In the space of one short episode, he was presented as being fully-formed and quite complex, but his characterisation didn't come at the expense of any of the regular cast. Now, granted, we'd had several seasons with the regular cast to that point, but the episode still found the time to advance Riker's character a bit, specifically in his dealings/relationship with Jellico.

What I've been observing so far with Discovery, is that there's new character after new character that comes in, gets half-explored, but it's always at the expense of the regulars. The writers and producers haven't learnt the right balance here, and I think they're completely mis-directing their efforts.

So yes, I agree with you 100%, the problem is with the series as a whole, not one or two episodes in isolation.
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MadManMUC
Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 12:01pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Chrome,

Also, I'm with you on 'The Ship'; despite the Muñiz plot, I enjoyed the episode.

So, I guess I think that — despite what I consider to be a narrative landmine with getting in-depth with a minor character for an episode only to red-shirt them at the end — the problem isn't ultimately a make-or-break one.

And, ultimately, there it is: I'm sorry, Airiam. You were a Red Shirt.
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MadManMUC
Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 11:46am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Chrome

What I think I object to the most about the Airiam situation is the fact that people had been practically begging to get know the character (along with the rest of the bridge crew) since last season. Which is — fundamentally — a very reasonable request. Star Trek has always been about the whole, the ensemble; even if a captain or commander was nominally the main character of any of the given series.

Bridge crews/senior staff in particular. The audience gets to know these people, and they feel somehow included in this little circle of people who sit on the bridge or the operations room and have adventures every week together.

And this is where this show breaks the model, and I think that it disturbs people. And I'm not talking about Discovery-haters; I'd be hard-pressed to frankly find any hardcore discovery fan who wouldn't like to get to know Detmer or Airiam or Bryce a little more, week over week, in a more substantial way than just hearing them telling us the shields are down to 41%, or that there's no response to our hails.

And that's why I think it was unfair of the writers to pull this off. They very likely knew what the fans wanted, and only sort-of delivered. And whilst I don't think writers and producers should by any means pander to fans, I think that the desire to get more stuck in with the rest of the bridge crew is absolutely, 100% reasonable and understandable. In the end: the Airiam really need to die? I would argue she didn't. There must have been another, just as compelling a narrative solution to the problem.

Instead, this season, we got Linus the Sneezing Saurian, Agent Tyle the Mouthbreather, and a wise-cracking engineer who only turned up a couple of times. That's creative energy, casting budget, and narrative goodwill better spent fulfilling the fans' wish, I believe.
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MadManMUC
Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 11:21am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

I find it interesting that the overwhelming majority of you consider the fact no-one suggested beaming Airiam back aboard Discovery to be problematic.

Oddly enough, I didn't find this a problem at all. My logic — as I watching — was that beaming her back would be the worst possible idea, just because she could probably access any old panel and take over the ship. Or even do it wirelessly, Cylon-style in the BSG reboot, even from confinement; consider that this is how she got hacked in the first place, wirelessly and without having to physically connect to anything.
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MadManMUC
Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 11:06am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

@Brian:

'to madmanUC, for not liking this episode and not being afraid to write a very succinct and thought provoking post about why that is. A good read. While I thought Michelle Paradise did a great job with this episode, madmanUC did not. That's okay!'

Well, you know, actually ... I'm really still not sure whether I liked it or disliked it, four days on. I was merely pointing out what I considered to be a pretty glaring structural problem that reminded me of that particular DS9 episode.

When I was watching it, there were minor things that bothered me, but nothing to dismiss it out of hand. The only other major thing that bothered me — at that time, when I watching it — was Spock's characterisation during his argument with MB. I thought he was being petty, vindictive, and emotional.

Then I thought about it some more, and I thought, 'Well, he just went through a mind-bending experience, *and* he's half-human after all. And he won't actually decide to go the whole distance, and take the Kolinahr to purge himself of his remaining emotions until after the Enterprise's five-year mission under Kirk is done (shortly before and during ST:TMP).' So that knowledge helped me half-excuse Peck's interpretation of Spock.

Then, on a lark, I re-watched a couple of TOS S01 episodes, and realised that S01 Spock could actually be outright nasty and confrontational. I'm thinking specifically of his speech in 'The Squire of Gothos' ('I object to you,' said Spock); and of his treatment of his shipmates and overall emotional bearing in 'The Galileo Seven' ... despite all of his claims of behaving logically during the ep.

So, up until this very moment, I was on the fence about Peck's Spock (never minding the fact that I fail to see any necessity in having him in this series to start with).

But, now, I think Peck is actually doing a good job. It's clear to me he researched the character, and made a pretty good interpretation of where Spock is in his life, taking into account how nimoy protrayed him over the years from the early TOS episodes through to the TOS films, and probably into TNG.

Is he Nimoy? No. Will we instantly associate Spock with Peck in the years to come? Likely not. But, I think, Peck's got more than an abundance of respect not just to the character, but to Nimoy himself, to not step in it with his own interpretation of the character. If we're to have Spock re-cast (again), I'm fairly pleased with Peck as the choice.

As for the rest of the episode. It was definitely watchable. It just had the same niggling, nitpicky issues that irk me in the other ones, and that I wish would finally be solved. And, like I said, Frakes did a great job bringing in the feels, even if those feels weren't earned or deserved.
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MadManMUC
Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 7:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Project Daedalus

With this episode, the show trod on the very same narrative landmine that DS9 did with 'The Ship'. Which is to say: taking an otherwise minor character (or even barely known, in the case of Muñiz), giving a concentrated info-dump for a backstory, contriving hitherto unknown relationships with crewmates, and then demanding that the audience cares about their death.

In both the case of 'The Ship' and of this episode, that demand of the audience is not only unfair, it's indicative of cheap, sloppy, and cowardly story plotting/writing. If we're being totally objective: why should we care, actually?

In the case of 'The Ship', we'd only seen Muñiz twice before on DS9. Admittedly, he'd had a good scene with Worf on 'Starship Down', but that scene really did nothing to advance Muñiz's character at all. In fact, that scene was a Worf scene, to show us he had a lot to learn about command. So, when he popped up in 'The Ship' and it turns out he and O'Brien were friends, it was difficult to get into this, because we'd had absolutely no prior indication this was a thing.

Still, I think that in 'Project Daedalus's' case, it's even worse of a demand to make of us. Whilst Muñiz's friendship and back-story info-dump came to us as a surprise because of lack of exposure, Airiam has been around since S01 of this show. And — if comments here on Jammer's site are any indication of anything — people had *wanted* to get to know Airiam for a long time. But, we didn't, because this is The Michael Burnham Show, not The Crew of the USS Discovery Show.

Instead, she — along with the rest of the bridge crew — had been treated like a piece of furniture, right up until the point it was time to kill her off for some cheap feels.

I said earlier it was cowardly writing. Cowardly, because — for both 'The Ship' and 'Project Daedalus' — the stories would have functioned so much better and would have had so much more impact if they had involved well-developed characters that people had spend a lot of time with, and had invested in emotionally week over week. Even more so for 'Project Daedalus' because — for all of this episode's other problems — Frakes managed to get the feels in with a pretty good execution of the idea. But the writers of both episodes weren't brave enough to off that sort of character. If it had been Saru or Stamets in that airlock, it would have been a much, much more fair demand of us to give a shit.

It's just a shame it was for a character we knew nothing about, up until this one episode's concentrated info-dump. Her lack of development until now represents two seasons' worth of wasted opportunities, and her death is ultimately pointless because of it.

Will she come back, be resurrected somehow? I really hope not. Like with Culber, it would simply cheapen the idea of her death even more than it already is.

I suppose it's the price to pay for having a Star Trek that has stated over and over again that it's really all about one character, and one character only. That's the biggest mistake of all.
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MadManMUC
Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 3:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

Oh, god.

What if the Red Angel is Q?
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MadManMUC
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 2:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

Well ... I'll admit I hate-watched S01. :D

I took up S02 because I know first seasons of any show can be naff, and I was also interested to see what Mount would do with Pike. And I'll also admit S02 did hold a few other pleasant surprises for me, so that's a net positive.
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MadManMUC
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 1:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

Further — despite my foul language and apparent negativity — I actually do try to be constructive about my criticisms, and suggest how I think it could be better.
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MadManMUC
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 1:57pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

'There is a group of 4-6 people who come here week after week spitting on Discovery.'

In all fairness, I've made no secret of the fact Discovery is my second-least favourite of all the Trek series (the bottom of the Trek barrel is still firmly coated with the detritus that was ENT for me), and I'll not hesitate to shit on it if I fancy it/thinks it needs it.

However ...

What I *won't* do is insult anyone who does like it.

What I *will* do is keep watching it anyway, in the hopes I will finally get to like it. Why? Because I'm a Trek fan, and I want to watch Trek on TV. Simple as that. And if Discovery improves in my eyes, then I'll be happy. If it doesn't, I can always ignore its existence down the track, like I do with ENT.
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MadManMUC
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 1:04pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

@ Booming:

'@MadManMuc
Dave is incapable of understanding that "the gays" can break up without becoming heterosexual and what is better to make this point than to joke about a pseudo scientific torture treatment hundreds of thousands of Americans were forced to undergo by the people they trusted the most, their parents.'

I see. So a comment thread best avoided, then.
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MadManMUC
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 12:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

'Spore Gay Conversion'

The what, now?
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MadManMUC
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 8:41am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

Oddly enough, now that I'm thinking about it, I haven't formed an opinion of Peck as Spock yet.

I still 100% disagree with him being on the show in the first place, and to have MB as his adoped sister; I think this was just a dumb idea.

But, we have a new Spock whether we want one or not, and those misgivings haven't coloured my impressions of Peck's performance either way, yet. I think he might have ... potential. We'll see. I suppose the coming episodes will show us if he's got what it takes. Something tells me the actor himself will want to do well by the character, in the same way Mount is doing his best to build on Jeffery Hunter's original Pike.

In many ways, Mount has it a lot easier than Peck. Canon Christopher Pikle was only around for one episode, so it's not like we had a whole lot to go on in judging Mount's interpretation. I suppose he was more free than Peck is.
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MadManMUC
Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 8:36am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

Well, Jammer, I'm frankly surprised you gave this 4 stars. And I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just surprised. I would have given it 2.5 at the most, and this is in large part to the Section 31 thread just being entirely too silly, and because I kind of find the whole back-story between Spock and Commander Wooden Plank—err, Michael Burnham—simply implausible, given what we knew of Spock from the various series and films. Like OTDP said, doing this was simply unnecessary.

All the same, I'm totally with you on Anson Mount, he was the best thing to happen to this series, and I'm saying this as someone who generally dislikes the show.
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MadManMUC
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 3:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

'Explains why Spock got so angry at Kirk. Kirk had triggered an old feeling that Spock had had difficulty assimilating. It is worth going and watching the moment Nimoy's Spock "loses it" in the face of Kirk's abuses. Almost feels as if Nimoy is channeling Peck's anger from this episode.'

Err ... except that 'This Side of Paradise' aired in 1967. What you're doing here is retconning. And Nimoy most certainly not channelling Peck.
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MadManMUC
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 3:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

I'm not sure, but I don't think Trent liked this week's episode. Call it a hunch.

:D
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MadManMUC
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 12:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

'That's actually not bad'

I thought so, too, though it would take a lot of narrative gymnastics to explain this.
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MadManMUC
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 11:35am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

Theories on a couple of other sites have it that the Red Angel is the corporeal manifestation of Discovery's sentient computer, as seen in one of the shorts.
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MadManMUC
Fri, Mar 8, 2019, 7:40am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: If Memory Serves

I haven't decided what I actually think about this episode yet. I'll have to think about it some more.

A couple of specific opinions, though:

• Overall, I didn't mind the new Talosians, I think they did a good job with the makeup (even if they declined to include the butt-cracks on the backs of their heads). What I don't like is that they made them far, far more benevolent than they were in 'The Cage'. I really don't know what their motivation is to be so nice this time around.

• I can't stand the Section 31 angle. They're such moustache-twirling Scooby-Doo villains, that there was exceptionally little standing between them and the line, 'Rats! Foiled again!', or, 'And we would have done it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!' The sooner we're done with these imbeciles, the better.
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MadManMUC
Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 12:58am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Light and Shadows

... or maybe everyone’s got it all wrong, and the Red Angel is a Q in Iron Man fancy dress
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MadManMUC
Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 7:46am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Light and Shadows

Yeah, the drugs and alcohol abuse thing also left a really, really bitter impression on me.
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MadManMUC
Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 7:20am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Light and Shadows

On the subject of Picard's new show, character breakdowns are out because of casting ... I'm not at all sure I'm liking the sound of this.

https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/star-trek/63795/star-trek-picard-series-character-breakdowns
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