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Lynos
Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 5:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

Ooooookay... I have to agree with Jammer's assessment of last week's episode. They should have left it open-ended.

The Orville takes the intriguing ending of Tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and takes it to the most uninteresting and predictable place possible. Kelly's decision to snub Ed results in nothing less than the destruction of the galaxy by the Kaylons, and the episode is simply a giant connect-the-dots reset button with some stunning special effects and rousing musical score. It doesn't really do anything interesting with the premise, it doesn't explore anything that wasn't already explored in part 1, and explored better. It's just an exercise in high-concept plot mechanics, more reminiscent of another science fiction show that just wrapped up. And it doesn't make a lick of sense.
The show seems to be very invested in Ed and Kelly's on again/off again romance, but this was perhaps one episode too many. We get it, Orville. They think their not right for each other, but realllly they are. We get it.

A disappointing season finale, but season 2 overall was very enjoyable. We had some clunkers, some great episodes, and some that were in between. The show lost a good character (Alara) to a mediocre character (Talla), Lamar completed his transition from a statue-pissing buffoon to the Geordie La Forge of the series (J Lee is still a horrible actor, though), and the series as a whole can be seen now as a straight science fiction show peppered with some humorous antics, as opposed to the comedy-heavy season 1 with its wild tonal shifts.

Hoping for a season 3, where the show might finally find its legs.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:52pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

By the way, I did not see anyone mention this, but the opening was different, wasn't it? There was only the title card, and then the rest of the credits ran over the actual episode. There were no beauty shots of Orville in space. I wonder why that was changed.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:43pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

Finally got around to watching this, and before I jump into it, for sure the most intriguing part of the episode was... the ending. But we'll get back to that.

So premise is neat and well-explained within the logic of the show. It is used to explore some interesting ideas about identity and fate, and I wish it was even explored more, but some significant screen time is taken by Ed courting young Kelly... again. It was okay, and predictable, since the show is very invested in the relationship between Ed and Kelly, but I felt there was some missed opportunity there for something greater. It also gets wrapped in the end with a nice bow after Isaac and Lamar devise a solution using some staggering bit of inspired technobabble and Young Kelly volunteers for a memory wipe cheerfully proclaiming it's gonna be alright because obviously Old Kelly doesn't have brain damage...
And then she finds herself on the floor, after presumably having her memory erased, but something ain't right, and then Ed calls her up as expected and she's... saying no.
Wow.
You got me there, Orville. I was ready for a run-of-the-mill, yawn-inducing, reset-button ending as most of these stories tend to end, but you got me there. And you got my attention.
So this ha perhaps been a set-up for something much more intriguing.

Some other thoughts:
- can Talla stop trying to be friends with every chick that comes onboard? There was some dialogue in the episode about "distance of command". She is the security chief but she behaves like a teenager starving for attention. Sorry, i know i'm in the minority here, but I find Talla to be one of the most annoying and superficial characters on the show.
- the club scene with the dancing Mocklans... I chuckled. I admit it freely. It mitigated my irritation from valley-girl Talla.
- the Kaylon are back to remind us they are still out there. Isaac does not comment. Come on, Isaac. Comment.
- everyone running to the bridge in their pajamas. Priceless.

Now we shall all wait in suspense to see whether this show gets renewed or not. If Star Trek: The Adventures of Spock's Half-Sister got renewed, then we need to keep this double bill going. Don't leave us out in the cold.
-
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Lynos
Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:14am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I have to say, insinuating that Spock has become the character we know because of that moment with his retconned half-sister that was never mentioned by anyone because that would treason borders on travesty.
Even in his most private moments, when Spock had self doubts and was alone or with Kirk or Bones (The Naked Time, This Side of Paradise, Gallileo Seven), never for once was Michael's name invoked, that extremely important person that only 10 years prior had such immense influence on Spock's relationship and outlooks on life, because you never know who's listening, right? And we must never talk about She-who-cannot-be-named.

Not that Discovery has any resemblance to established Trek as it is, but I am so glad they are now stuck 900 years in the future and will stop wreaking havoc on the franchise's history and characters.

Now there is a new worry, though: unless the writing improves, there is a risk the show will wreak new havoc in Trek's future history that future Trek series will need to take into account.
But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it... I still really hope they will get their act back together for season 3.
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Lynos
Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 6:01am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

So was the whole point of this show to explain why none of it appears anywhere on Trek? Brilliant! Mission accomplished, although the "under pain of treason" thing doesn't explain why nobody ever mentioned any of it in private conversations.

Great effects as usual, and I liked the shot of Burnham flying between the protecting vessels, and the end on the bridge of the Enterprise was pretty cool, but again, it's expertly made fan service covering a hollow core. And what does it all mean, anyway? Where is this series going?

The threat of Control as personified by Leland culminates in a braindead fist fight with Georgio. Prior to that Leland enters the bridge for no reason before heading to the spore data, shoots everyone and misses, in complete opposite to Michael's vision from last week. And speaking of that double vision, it proves to be just a red herring for the most part - yeah, it prompts Michael to "close the loop", but come on... The mental gymnastics are too much. And no good explanation was given as to why Enterprise didn't destroy Discovery last week, the same way as Control is wearing down its shields this week.
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Lynos
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 5:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

To a degree it's sort of a rant, yes, but it is very different than the typical rant I see on YouTube. I don't think it's the choice of words that "qualifies" something to be a rant, it's the quality of the argument. Some people just use strong words but don't have a lot to back up their claims. The words are a result of, as you say, him being emotional. It doesn't void his arguments.

I think he makes his point rather eloquently, though, but of course you might disagree.
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lynos
Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 3:16am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I highly recommend listening to this guy, especially if you find yourself having issues with Discovery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVxSC5wHSig

The relevant part is between 00:34 min. and 00:58 min.

Burnett is the director of the feature film Free Enterprise, a long time Trekkie, and is part of the industry (he produced special features for many genre DVD's, including Star Trek: TMP), so I think his take is worthwhile. He has encyclopedic knowledge of Trek and of movies in general, and is quite knowledgeable regarding the genesis and production of Discovery.

I find his take is rather brilliant and doesn't come off as a rant but as genuine, thoughtful criticism.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 5:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Daya

"Somewhat related: no one else till now has had an actual premonition without being close to the crystals. So this vision is unique. Another indication it was added in post."

You have a point there. Anybody can counter that?

As for the rest of it, i dunno, her "stop!" sounds too urgent to be just about firing the photon torpedoes. Again, what is she so afraid of? But we have to accept we will most likely never know how for sure how this scene was originally written and conceived, even though, again, I like your theory. It has some strong arguments.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 4:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

The two last paragraphs in my post above were from an earlier draft of the post and repeat the same information more or less, sorry about that, I forgot to delete in my excitement.

This message board really needs an Edit button... oh wait.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 4:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Daya

Your analysis is honestly brilliant and quite plausible. There is enough material in this scene for it to be edited straight, no problem. Something is definitely off in the editing of the scene and I think your explanations are rather good.

There is only one problem.

There is no real connection between the two visions. I refer again to what Daya said:

"This they discovered during editing: that none of these choices worked story-wise. So they decided to shoehorn the premonition in a third location, the photon torpedo scene. Now just the Enterprise photon torpedo premonition in that shot would make no sense,"

Why would it not make sense? There is literally no connections between the two visions, other than involving photon torpedoes. There is no thematic or plot connection. The torpedo shown in the 2nd vision is lodged into Enterprise's hull, not Discovery's! So even if Pike were to shoot at Discovery, we are talking about two different ships, at two different times.

While it feels very plausible that this was decided in post - because it does not feel organic at all - I simply cannot comprehend why they would think this would enhance Michael's "Garish Nightmare" vision.

I also don't understand why Michael is shouting "stop!!" as Pike prepares to fire the torpedoes.
What is she afraid of?
Is she afraid the sphere will shoot back at them?
Is she simply riled up from her vision?

If we're going by Daya's theory, and this all played straight originally, what was this "stop!!" for, originally?
Did Pike just kept shooting and shooting at Discovery in the "original version" as opposed to the edited version where he didn't fire a shot?

Someone needs to get the script for this episode.
My head is exploding again.

Let's recap again (this is becoming my favorite past time): there is "vision 1" where Micheal sees them firing the photon torpedoes at Discovery. Basically time stops for her and she jumps a few seconds into the future. Then "vision 2" starts, where she finds herself on the bridge of Discovery again.
The only connection between the two visions is that it involves photon torpedos, but in "vision 2", the torpedo is lodged into Enterprise's hull, not Discovery's! Why would they fabricate "vision 1" in post? Can't they just have her experience "vision 2" on the deck of the Enterprise?

Again, there is no real connections between these two visions/premonitions. The first one is about:
"Guys, don't bother firing at Discovery, the sphere has her". It takes place in the immediate future, literally seconds from real time. The second one is at undetermined point in the future, showing Control winning the battle and Enterprise fatally wounded.
We do not know yet what this second vision means.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:19am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

That's the thing, it's not an editing mistake, it's totally purposeful (if I understood your post correctly).
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:12am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Alan

The answers to your questions are all above in the comments. Bottom line: Discovery did not fire a single torpedo. It was all in Michael's head. I do not have a real good answer as to "why".

@ Daya

I re-watched TNG's Eye of the Beholder. Great episode, and I came to it completely fresh since I haven't seen it in many years and remembered nothing. It does share similarities with Such Sweet Sorrow because it features different layers of dream/fantasy nestled inside each other. However, I was not confused for a moment. I was perplexed, as in "what's going on here", but by the time it all ends, the script lays out very clearly what happened and why. While in Discovery's episode it's just a very confusing and seemingly arbitrary scene that is done for no apparent purpose. I have tried to imagine how the scene would go if they played it straight. Pike would fire the photon torpedoes, they would realize what is happening - just as Saru is realizing inside Michael's vision (!) - and then... and then... I dunno. The scene seems to be about the importance of what Michael is seeing. It might pay off in the next episode. Who knows.

But I find that Eye of the Beholder is much more skillful with its reality/fantasy transitions and generally is wonderfully made. It's also about CHARACTER, both Deanna's and Worf's.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 6:19am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Alan Roi

I cannot approve or refute your claims as to the nature of the show. I will admit I did not study Discovery intensively or search its episodes with a fine comb. I admit I sometimes miss stuff, even though I stand by most of my criticism of the show.

Obviously I feel a little odd when I am told that Discovery is actually very clever and I just don't get it because "it's not for me". I watch a lot of Sci-Fi and usually have no problem following what's going on. Again, I cannot go back to every little nook and cranny of the show and discuss it here. I don't hate the show. I think it's interesting, but very flawed, especially as a show bearing the Star Trek moniker.

I will concede one thing: the show is very fast. Very. Things are happening at a crazy pace. I will try to pay more attention from now on just to make sure, y'know... that they won't trick me again. :-)
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 4:11am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Booming

I think with the Sarek thing it's simply a plot issue, and Discovery has its fare share of real or perceived illogical plot machinations, while with the vision sequence, it's in the way it's edited, both visually and sound-wise. Some were able to lock in on the edit, and some were not. Personally I only caught it when i LOOKED for it. It did not register otherwise. This difference in perception between different viewers is what makes it so fascinating, purely as a litmus test for the way a scene is edited.

Of course if you got it from the get-go you would consider it "obvious", but the fact a fair amount of us were thrown off by it, including the highly intelligent, Trek expert who is hosting this site, means that there is a problem there. If the writers meant for EVERYONE to get it, then they failed. And I still don't know what was the point of it. Perhaps it will become clearer in the next episode.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 1:34am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

Also, Alan Roi, apologies for misspelling your name repeatedly, I guess it's just another thing I missed.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 1:28am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

The time rewind: yeah, I get it, but that means we have a time loop within a time loop. She either goes back in time initially, and then goes forward, or she goes forwards and then backwards, but we are shown the forward before the backward.

My head is exploding.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 1:24am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

Daya, I know, I caught the actual beginning of it (see my comment above).

The "obvious transition" though doesn't happen on the Discovery, I don't think. It's all happening to Michael on the Enterprise. She sees Discovery in her vision, but that's it.

Other than that I agree with everything you said. I will now need to re-watch Eye of the Beholder to compare.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 1:07am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I also don't understand why the vision begins with a time-rewind since she is obviously moving forward in time in her vision, not backwards. So weird. It seems like it was only done to show us something if off.
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Lynos
Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 1:03am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Alan Roy

My god, this is bonkers.

This is not about shields or not shields anymore, this is about the construction and editing of a scene.
You are right. There is a very brief moment, almost imperceptible, where time moves backwards for Burnham. There is clearly a crewman walking backwards behind her! It's literally a blink-and-you-miss-it moment and I missed it even after watching the scene multiple times, so my hat's off to you for catching it, sir. And then the dialogue with Saru and Pike repeats. So I cannot help but conclude your interpretation is correct!

However...

This is so WEIRD! They do two "vision transitions" in one scene, one almost imperceptible and then another, bigger one. The first vision looks almost mundane, and devolves into nightmarish. Why? What are the rules of those visions? The editing in this scene is bonkers. I will be very very interested to know how many people got totally confused by this scene vs. how many people got it. I would applaud Discovery for being so subtle if it wasn't for how weird it all was. You can also argue that they go that route so they wouldn't have to deal with the shield issue, as Michael tells them there is no point even trying. I still don't understand how they all believe her so readily without even trying, but the show established Michael as the de-facto expert on-board Discovery and Pike has done as she suggested many times almost without question.

I am utterly baffled and I concede that I missed this (and Jammer did as well!) even though I don't know what the point of it was other than stopping Enterprise from firing at Discovery.
In the vision itself there is no clear link between Enterprise firing at Discovery and Control boarding the vessel, it simply jumps ahead in time. I assume Michael's conclusion is that firing on Discovery will lead to a chain of events that will result in Control taking over.

As I said, the rules of the visions are not clear, it's not clear when they happen and why. For example, Pike touched the crystal as well but does not seem to have visions anymore.
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Lynos
Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 4:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

I would also like to say that whether I'm wrong or not, Jammer in his review interpreted the scene the same way as I did:

"Well, it turns out this plan also doesn't work, because the data has now merged with Discovery's computer and has enough control of the ship to disarm the auto-destruct. It also raises its shields when the Enterprise starts firing torpedoes at it. So it's back to the drawing board, with only an hour before Control's Section 31 ships arrive."
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Lynos
Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 4:50pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Alan Roy @ Daya

I watched the scene again several times and I see no evidence that it was entirely fabricated in Michael's head. The editing and camera plays it straight. Up until now, including this episode, the visions had a distinct feel to them. Yes, we cut back to Michael's face but she is just listening.
Then at some point, I believe on the line "Liland's ships are now in range, captain" we go into the vision proper with a distinct sound effect and camera movement. If the vision already started, why would we have another "vision starting" moment within the vision? Is this a David Cronenberg film? Michael has her vision, sees the ship boarded and her friends killed - the vision has the feel of a nightmare - then it ends when she says "excuse me captain". Note that Michael says "we should have anticipated it would use our shields". Why would she say "anticipated" if it never happened? If that was the case she would say "we should anticipate it would use our shields".
Two more points: 1) during Michael's supposedly early vision, there is a conversation with Saru and Saru realizes what the sphere has done. It does not make sense to me that this all takes place during a dream/vision. 2) if Alan's and Daya's interpretation is correct, then Enterprise didn't even TRY to shoot at Discovery. Why not? What does it have to lose? Michael doesn't tell them it's dangerous, only that it's futile. Pike would just take her word for it?

I'm sorry if Alan is tearing his hair our reading this and thinking I'm an idiot. I am not saying my interpretation is the right one, I'm only saying this is how I interpret the scene, even after watching it multiple times. It's okay to tell me I'm wrong but please respect my point of view if I choose to disagree.
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Lynos
Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:59am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

@ Alan Roy

My phrasing was a bit off, but Discovery did raise its shields when Enterprise fired at it so that is what I meant, and the criticism still stands. Shields can be weakened. It did certainly happen on screen.
Not only that, but when Pike orders another volley of photon torpedoes Michael tells him to stop saying that the sphere has not merged with Discovery and use its shields for protection.

By the way, I am not a hater. I can be very critical of the show and still like/enjoy certain aspects of it. I always try to highlight some of the positives when I comment on the episodes. If there will come a time where I will find no redeeming values in it then I will stop watching. I'm not a masochist.
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Lynos
Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 1:48am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

Once again, the main reason to watch this show is the eye candy. The Enterprise bridge looked fantastic. THIS is how you design something to feel both retro and updated at the same time.
The writers keep reminding us, though, that there will be NO HOLOGRAMS on the Enterprise, to get themselves out of their own sinkhole. More on that later.

So the sphere takes over Discovery and does not allow it to be destroyed in order to protect itself. It cancels the self-destruct sequence and raises shields. It has been established in Trek universe that shields can be fired upon and weakened and ultimately destroyed, but apparently not in this version of Trek. The sphere then ALLOWS the crew that wanted to destroy it to board Discovery again, and the crew hatches a plan which involves putting Discovery on auto-pilot.
Since the writers have established that the sphere now has partial or even full control over Discovery, I'm not sure how everyone is so confident their plan will succeed. Ah, it's because the sphere controls Discovery when it's required by the plot, and not controlling it when it's not.

Po, a character I did not recognize, arrives on the bridge. I went and saw the short this character is from. The short is nothing special and while Po had some fun dialogue involving ice cream, nothing in this plot line was especially memorable.

Georgiou pops up again out of nowhere to crack some jokes. I don't get this character. It started the season as a sneering villain undercover, somehow began to turn "good" during the season, and now she's simply a comic relief. I don't get her motivations and I don't understand who she is. Michelle Yeoh is great but the writers are completely botching this character.

Then a tearful goodbye from Burnham (who cries for the third or fourth time this season) only to have everyone change their minds and decide to ride into possible oblivion along with her because hey, they all love her so much or something. We get heartfelt scenes with characters we know nothing about even though we've seen them for more than 20 episodes write letters to loved ones. Give me a break, Discovery.

So considering all the time shenanigans, it is possible we're going towards either a partial reset of the timeline or a branching into a parallel universe, just like the JJ Abrams movies did. I stopped really considering Discovery as canon a while ago, but the writers lack of confidence in their own material is telling. After screwing up the timeline in season 1 with all kind of weird decisions, they have spent a good chunk of this season trying to correct that. I think I would really have preferred they just stuck to their own brave new universe with its bald Klingons and holographic communications and Spock's half-sister and gave us the finger. I think I would've respected them a little more. Because all this course-correction just shows me the people behind Discovery have no idea what they are doing.

Either way, the show remains a fascinating mess to watch and I can't wait to see how they wrap it all up.
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Lynos
Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:15pm (UTC -5)
Re: ORV S2: Sanctuary

I could've done without the Rambo action scene where Bortus and Kelly singlehandedly take on an army of Moclans (admittedly with a little help from the colonists), but this was a very good episode, played mostly straight.

- Klyden and Bortus need to call it quits. Obviously this relationship isn't working.
- I liked the different cutaways to the different aliens in the council. Anything that resembles world-building is welcome.
- For some reason many of the actors playing admirals are very stiff, especially Ted Danson. The scene where they are discussing their options in the boardroom along with Mercer is not very good.
- Best scene: Haveena getting her first exposure to the poet Dolly Parton. The series has done some very creative use this season with pop music. For once Mercer actually has to check who the singer is, instead of knowing it by heart as if he was not a 24th century man.
- Marina Sirtis!

It may have wrapped up perhaps too neatly towards the end but I thought it was solid and one of the best episodes of the season for sure. An interesting conflict and some great character development for Bortus. We missed you, Orville!
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Lynos
Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 3:35pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Through the Valley of Shadows

@ Alan Roi

Fair enough. I admit it's been a long time since I watched DS9 and I remember the details only in broad strokes, so I don't feel like I'm in any position to discuss Sisko's character in depth.

But I still don't feel like Pike really had a choice, or let's just say I didn't feel any suspense with regard to his choice, because the plot seemed to be pushing him to one direction. Seriously, what would he do? Say no and let All Sentient Life in the Galaxy Be Destroyed? Maybe if the choice was more personal in nature, smaller in scope, it would be easier for me to buy it as a genuine character moment, but when the galaxy's fate is at stake? Would Burnham act differently? Or Spock? Or Saru? Or even freakin' Tilly?
It rang hollow to me.

Just my two cents.
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