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William B
Fri, May 24, 2019, 9:37am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: The Tholian Web

In fairness, there are a few things that I like about TI as a final episode, involving the supporting cast. I won't say them here because Springy's going through the series (and that's why I wrote my comment). But overall, no.
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William B
Fri, May 24, 2019, 9:01am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: The Tholian Web

@Springy,

IMO season 3 is quite rough, and I like season 1 and 2 a fair bit. There are still some episodes I find worthwhile, though the TOS goofiness is present in most of them.

It's up to you but I might recommend swapping Turnabout Intruder and All Our Yesterdays, which is considered by most (including me) to be a better episode, and a better one to go out on, if you want to end on a higher note. AOY gives a lot of attention to Spock & McCoy, whereas Turnabout Intruder, while having good qualities, is infamous for SHATNER ACTING and sexism. (Well, not everyone agrees re: sexism, or that the SHATNER ACTING is bad. But I think you will fall in with the not being a fan of TI camp.)
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William B
Thu, May 23, 2019, 2:02pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

It's weird and cool that there's a new DuckTales and people like it. I haven't followed it (and have only the vaguest childhood memories of the original) but it is kind of neat -- if symptomatic of the endless reboots. I guess my general rule is that if reboots are good, they're good. Tautology but hey.
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William B
Wed, May 22, 2019, 11:14am (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S3: Spectre of the Gun

The episode gets points off for not making a "Chek[h]ov's gun" joke.
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William B
Tue, May 21, 2019, 10:44am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Final Mission

I'll add, under normal circumstances the natural move would be to make the weird EM crystal thing Wesley figures out block the Enterprise's scanners. But it was wise to not have the Enterprise crew working on the same problem as Wesley, so as to avoid the s1 trap of Wes solving the problem faster than the entire rest of the ship working together.
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William B
Tue, May 21, 2019, 10:34am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S4: Final Mission

It's true they need some contrivance (I'm not using "contrivance" pejoratively here) to keep the Enterprise away, either some reason they are unaware of the crash or some urgent business away. But I don't think they had to spend any time on it after setting it up. That said, if it were better executed it wouldn't be a problem to have a problem-solving B-plot.
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William B
Sun, May 19, 2019, 12:22pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Necessary Evil

@Michael, thank you!

I don't have an active blog. I'll let people know here if I get one.
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William B
Sat, May 18, 2019, 12:07pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

@Peter, lol. I laughed. I could hear his voice.
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William B
Thu, May 16, 2019, 8:58am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@methane -- I agree on all points. I think there are lots of in-universe reasons that make sense for Odo, and I also think that until "Chimera" any alternatives didn't occur to the writers. (And once again, I'm not personally saying they necessarily needed to go with any alternative courses with Odo, just that I think Odo was a good candidate.)
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@Peter,

That is definitely clear, and makes sense to me. I guess here I just want to say I agree with Elliott that the story *could* have gone in a different direction by this point in the series. I think you probably don't disagree either, but I think we differ in the degree to which the Odo material up to this point in the series would be *particularly* fertile ground for him to be less traditionally heterosexual than he appears to be. I am actually kind of agnostic on it, but I think that there is enough up to this point in the show that for the physical, corporeal side of Odo's sexuality to be less fixed than for the other solids in the show would make sense, in a similar way to Odo's eating, drinking, sleeping etc. being different than from other humanoids. For his corporeal self, created in the image of a Bajoran man and also coinciding with his emotional development of mapping his developing feelings for a Bajoran woman, to be heterosexual, makes sense and I don't actually object.
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@Peter G.,

I definitely agree about Odo's burgeoning sexuality matching onto how young people discover their sexuality, and I think you put it well. And in general I don't disagree too much with any particular point. Still, I'd maybe elaborate on the connection between the changelings' Link and humanoid sex. I agree that the link and humanoid sexual intercourse seem to be similar/analogous, but this reinforces even more why heteronormativity needn't be assumed. It may be that Odo really is "male" and the Salome Jens Founder is "female," as they often present themselves. But that doesn't quite match with the Great Link as a single mass of all changelings, wherein distinctions between individual bodies become irrelevant. Even if they have individual m/f genders, they seem to exist outside heteronormativity in the Link given that it would seem to match up to a kind of mass orgy, if it matches up to human sexuality. This is part of why viewing the changeling Link impulse and human sexuality as having a similar instinct is tricky, IF we also accept heteronormativity as an assumed default for the changelings as well. In their changeling form, they don't appear to be heterosexual, and seem to be outside gendered distinctions except when they put themselves in humanoid form. So I think it's worth distinguishing between "sexual" in the sense of, "having to do with sexual intercourse and desire for such" and "sexual" as in, "pertaining to male/female sex differences." Odo appears to have "sexual" (desire to merge with) feelings for Kira, but this does not necessarily mean he has "sexual" (having to do with Kira's specifically female traits, her having a vagina etc.) feelings for her. I think there are enough indications that the Founders decontextualize "sexuality" (the desire for physical merging as intimacy) from "sexuality" (the existence of biological sex differences between male and female) that it could be interesting to follow up on this some more.

Of course, there's Trek precedent for gender being so fundamental that it is not even related to biological form -- in "Metamorphosis" the Companion is a specifically *female* amorphous gas light blob. I'm not sure whether that really makes sense to me or not.

@Jason R.,

I hadn't remembered about "Badda-Bing Badda-Bang," though I do now that you mention it. As you say though that could also count as a retcon.

//

Anyway, I don't really object to Odo being a hetero male, just that I don't think it's obvious he has to be (or that it's the most interesting story choice, though "what is interesting" is a pretty big, broad topic).
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 1:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@Chrome -- thanks! Regarding your devil's advocate: but "A Simple Investigation" takes place when Odo's a solid, and he's *completely* solidified, so that he also eats, drinks, sleeps, etc. -- all the physical things that he doesn't do as a changeling. So the ambiguities that come with him being a changeling or an alien are no longer relevant.

@Peter, just to add one more thing, you're right of course that aliens in Trek are usually only so alien and are usually humans except for one or two quirks. It's really because Odo 1) has been established as being physically ill-at-ease in his body, 2) IIRC denied having romantic feelings for anyone at all before the Kira thing started, 3) IIRC again has never shown any sexual feelings for anyone besides Kira that I think it's quite legitimate to argue that boxing Odo into a "default sexuality" at this point in the series is a new development and then to question whether it removes some of what's interesting and unique about Odo. This is I think an area where they have already *established* Odo as being different from other humanoids, at least in his own description. He is perhaps in denial about that, but it's an issue that has in some ways come up. It's not like arguing that Odo shouldn't be able to speak English because we don't know how his tongue works.
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 1:23pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@Peter,

Good points. But two things:

1. Odo has said that he doesn't eat because the results were "messy." That's neither here nor there.

2. Odo's attraction to Kira: I feel like it's worth pausing here. I might be misunderstanding. But up to this point in the series, do we know his attraction to her is definitely *sexual*? I know I said earlier that there is a sexual component, and I think there probably is. But I also don't know how well we can distinguish between different kinds of needs and feelings. Odo is jealous of Kira's sexual relationship with Bareil and Shakaar, but that does not necessarily mean he has the same feelings for her that they do. What Odo really wants of Kira seems to me to be intimacy and closeness. As I said earlier, that is something humans can do through sexual intercourse, but it's not the only way. I'd argue that what Odo *really wants* is to Link with Kira, which is of course impossible. Of course the Link is also partly a sexual metaphor -- but it's still distinct, and the meaning of gender is irrelevant with regards to the Link itself. I can see how his desire is also probably a sexual desire. I am trying to think whether there were any scenes in which Odo's feelings for Kira were distinctly sexualized -- him staring at her breasts or whatever. I don't think they ever did, and again the closest seems to be his clear jealousy of her sex with Shakaar. But even this is not *quite* the same as him having a "normal" set of sexual feelings for Kira. One could argue that there's a certain limitation that a 90's Trek show isn't going to have Odo ogling Kira and having a visible erection, and that's certainly true, but that still means that I don't think the show had conclusively established that Odo is necessarily wired in a precisely sexual adult male way. Again I'm not arguing that he definitely *isn't* wired that way. What I mean is that the show has been ambiguous in certain respects, and has also made clear at other times that his body is not like other people's bodies.

This is why for Odo to react with sexual interest in a woman he doesn't know, as opposed to a woman is a new thing. Again, I don't mean "new thing" necessarily in a bad way. It's treated in the scene as something new-ish for him. What's happening here is that Elliott regards the scene as sending Odo into a direction that is unnecessary and stupid. It appears that you, Jason, and Chrome are arguing that the scene is not establishing anything new for Odo but is merely restating what the series has already made obvious -- that Odo is a sexual male being with normal drives, when he's in his humanoid form. What I'm arguing is that I think Elliott is right that the scene is making a new statement, and that the series had not yet established definitely what Odo's sexual status was, and that there has been enough ambiguity in the treatment of Odo's body that it *is* a new development to have him react this way. Whether it's a bad development or not -- eh, I don't know. I think the scene is kind of stale. I don't really object that strongly and I don't think it's implausible. I think it can work with what we know, for reasons you have all articulated and for reasons I've added. But I do think it was a choice in this scene. And I think that it was a choice makes Elliott's arguments about it valid. I think I tend to agree, but I also don't have a strong emotional connection so it's a bit hard for me to evaluate.

"As far as Garak and the Bajoran woman go, don't forget also how clever Garak is. I always assume that whatever else he's doing, he's collecting information. Maybe his appeal to Odo here is a way of gauging exactly what Odo's sexual nature is in the first place?"

This, on the other hand, I agree with completely -- it's definitely a plausible read on the scene, and it seems to me to be very Garak (particularly mid-series Garak) to be, simultaneously, doing a favour for a friend and gathering information to use (possibly against them) later, should the need arise.
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 1:08pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

Anyway, this isn't really my fight. I don't really care that much that Odo turns out to be a straight dude. It seems quite likely that his feelings for Kira and his longing for intimacy with her triggered a certain mode of relating to her that is probably sexual. I think that what Odo *actually longs for* with Kira is closeness and intimacy -- something of the melding which occurs in the Link -- and he recognizes that the closest humanoid equivalent to the Link is sexual intercourse. Embodied in a physical male form, his emotional/spiritual desire to meld with Kira takes on physical/sexual dimensions. And once that process starts, it makes sense that, with attractive Bajoran woman Kira off the table, he'll see other attractive Bajoran women in a similar way. He probably didn't experience sexual attraction before Kira because he never recognized that his lonely existence wasn't enough for him and he wasn't skilled enough at reproducing his humanoid body, and now post-Link/post-Kira feelings he is better at it. There's lots of ways of interpreting it that make sense to me.

What I'm saying is that I think that Elliott has a point. This isn't even my fight, and it's not really that emotionally involved a subject for me -- I'm straight and I don't really care whether Odo is or not. But there is a dearth of representation in Trek for non-heteronormative sexualities, and I think Odo was a good candidate for various reasons. He is not locked into a single body and has been celibate (in terms of humanoid sexuality) the whole time we knew him, and this scene marks the point at which a decision was made that he was *definitely* not just Kirasexual but also attracted to other Bajoran women based on their looks. An active decision was made in the scene, which winnowed down some of the possibilities of Odo's character. Maybe that's fine because maybe they do enough interesting things with Odo that it's not worth examining these possibilities.
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 1:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@Peter, it is partly because they would have an easier time slipping Odo past the censors that I think he'd be a good candidate to. That's part of what's interesting about "Chimera," which does many different things but can be read in part as an analogy for a closeted man finding a relationship with another man, who is himself a more angry, anti-hetero gay (subtext made text with the "changeling pride parade" material). The series itself goes to that well and recognizes its value. But I also think there is potential in Odo's Alien-Outsider nature and what it means to be a changeling to explore this. I think the reason it's interesting to speculate about what could have been done is because part of what defines Odo's character is that his body is, or can be, in flux. It's an opportunity to consider how much of our identity is tied to our bodies, and what it means that the body can change. Which parts of romance are entirely tied to the physical form we take, and which parts are more general? Is it all in the form our body takes at the given moment, or does changing the body change the feelings? Sexual intercourse is one of the most *physical* aspects of human life and interaction, and Odo's body is only a fascimile, albeit a close one -- but still not one that eats, drinks, urinates. These are questions that both TNG and DS9 have addressed with the Trills. They address an awful lot of interesting questions with Odo, so I'm not upset that we don't get this particular factor all that addressed. But I also think it was a missed opportunity to at least start asking these questions.

I guess the other aspect is that unless I'm misremembering, Odo has emphatically denied having any such (romantic/sexual) feelings publicly for years, and the only time we have seen them manifest is with Kira at this point in the series. The series has been agnostic for four years on whether Odo can have heteronormative sexual feelings about someone besides his single all-encompassing obsession (and even on whether his feelings for Kira are specifically sexual or if "sexual" is the easiest frame in which to organize them), and then makes a decision in the teaser to go with "heteronormative" -- that for, again unless I'm misremembering, the first time in the series, Odo primarily interacts with another solid sexually (by being tongue-tied sexually attracted to someone he doesn't already know). Up to this point in the series it was also possible for people with less heteronormative sexualities to see some of that reflected in Odo, who initially in the series found himself completely outside the realm of romantic relationships, and only eventually came to long for something romantic once he discovered his deep emotional connection to Kira and his deep loneliness.
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 12:42pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@Jason, I understand what you're saying, but I think we're talking at cross purposes a little here. There seems to be a sexual component, of some kind, in Odo's feelings for Kira, but we also know by this point in the series that it is *only* Kira for whom Odo has had these feelings. The next closest is Lwaxana, and that relationship was defined in part by him *not* being willing/able to reciprocate Lwaxana's sexual advances. Moreover by this point in the series, unless I'm forgetting something, Odo has denied being capable of having humanoid-sexual feelings for people to everyone but Quark, the Female Shapeshifter, and Lwaxana, and Lwaxana's ex-husband when he was faking. The series repeatedly stresses that despite Odo's ability to mimic humanoid forms, he *doesn't* mimic all their bodily functions, at all -- he doesn't eat or drink. The season premiere showed how he fakes drinking with Garak in a clever way by making a cup part of him. The entire premise of extracting blood to check whether someone is a changeling is that changelings are assumed not to be able to produce fluids which can then be removed from their bodies and then remain in non-changeling-gelatinous-gooey form. This might be a mislead, as we are hinted at a few times, but it's surely based on what they know of what *Odo* can do, so he clearly can't ejaculate fluid that isn't just going to become changeling goo when it exits. Garak doesn't even know that Odo has feelings for Kira at this point, so for him to assume that he is going to have sexual feelings for a humanoid when he has had zero indication that Odo *has* sexual feelings at all is a big leap for him. This is by no means an indication that Garak shouldn't test it out -- who doesn't like a little experiment? -- but there is a tacit assumption within the scene that Odo is going to be physically impressed, which seems to go against most of what Garak knows about him, and what we know about the track record of Odo's sexual history besides Kira.

I feel like there's an opportunity here to consider ways in which Odo's bizarre, unusual, not-really-human(oid) constitution, his inability to fully recreate the humanoid body (which we're reminded of constantly, if only because of his face), the way in which his obsession with Kira is repeatedly emphasized as the *one* and only thing keeping him from returning to the Link, and so on, would manifest in his sexuality. It just seems like "anyway, otherwise, he has a really standard, average sexuality" is the least interesting answer in some ways. It is an answer, and I suppose a plausible one.

In any case, I don't really know how to evaluate how primary the sexual attraction to Kira is in terms of how he relates to her. She functions for him at least in part as an anchor tying him to the solid world, and he overinvests all kinds of things in her -- basically viewing her as a gateway to the whole solid world. He seems to want a romantic relationship with her, but by this point in the series it's still unclear whether that's even possible, or, indeed, whether that's *actually* what he wants from her.

"Why one should be distresses that he appropriates a common sexuality (cis male hetero) and not a relatively common one is beyond me."

I'm certainly not distressed. What I'm getting at is that the series has up to this point left it relatively open how Odo's sexuality would even work, if it would work at all, and in this scene it made a decision on it. It's worth noting and talking about whether that decision is the most interesting one.
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William B
Wed, May 15, 2019, 12:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

I think as Elliott indicates, maybe the issue with Odo and sexual attraction is more a matter of disappointment that the show was maybe not as imaginative as it could be. What we see really is that Odo denies his depth of feeling by identifying as a changeling, but of course he longs for emotional connection. Whether that emotional connection should take a sexual form, though, is sort of an open question. Given early-series Odo's distaste for solids' romantic endeavours, would it even make sense for him to replicate the *appearance* of genitals, let alone functional ones? And if he did decide to replicate them, why is he "stuck" "being" a male Bajoran rather than a female one? Because his romantic interests are Kira and, in a weird way, Lwaxana, both of whom are apparently very hetero, it does make sense that if he's going to commit to a gender it should be male, but as Elliott suggests it seems kind of unimaginative for him to suddenly be a Tex Avery cartoon wolf* when Garak brings in a hottie for him. I agree with that, though I also don't exactly *object* to the idea that Odo could have a basically functional male body that has male hormones or whatever, at this point, just that I'm not sure if it should be so much the default.

*I'm exaggerating for effect.

Another possibility, which I think is not likely intended but is maybe worth considering for a moment, is whether Garak is actually trying to give Odo tips on how to "pass" as a typical adult heterosexual male, so as to be less isolated in his day-to-day life.
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William B
Tue, May 14, 2019, 10:00am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

I just want to add, Garak's plan involving self-sacrifice really makes the contrast with Tain pop. Garak is brutal and does evil things, but he does not do it for personal gain, whereas Tain planned to leverage the genocide to consolidate his own political power. It makes Garak's action no less brutal, but more desperate, emotional, and with a kind of perverse nobility despite the horror of what he's doing. L

Despite its flaws, the episode does pay off IC/TDIC by having both Odo and Garak following the code created by their tyrannical "parents" to its (self-sacrificing) conclusion. Both are aware consciously of the hypocrisy of said parents but also feel a loyalty to them, and can't deny what their code would have them do.
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William B
Tue, May 14, 2019, 9:52am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

(Although I guess the genocide would have been harder without the Defiant, so that wouldn't really work. Hm.)
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William B
Tue, May 14, 2019, 9:49am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Broken Link

@Elliott, alas, I agree about Garak. I do think he maybe decided to level with Sisko because his reason was so self-evident that even he could hardly obscure it, and perhaps because he was already planning some rash action should he get the "wrong answer" from, er, Anne.

Possibly the way to help the story would be to reveal that Sisko, Worf, Odo and maybe Bashir had anticipated that Garak might have some other plans, so that averting his mass murder-suicide would make the Defiant crew look smart rather than making Garak look sloppy. This might present its own problems, because really they probably shouldn't have let Garak on this mission in the first place, but especially not if they anticipated he might take some aggressive action.

I agree it's a shame there wasn't more discussion of sending the Defiant into enemy territory. In fact the episode could have pared it down by sending Odo, Bashir and Garak on a volunteer Runabout mission. That it's basically a suicide mission should the Founders be uncooperative would explain why Garak would go instead of more reliable personnel - - Bashir or Odo could vouch that his need to know what happened to Tain was genuine enough to be worth a risk to him that would not match anyone else. If the Founders' goodwill is reliable they don't need the Defiant, and if it's not the Defiant wouldn't be any good. Bashir's presence is medically necessary but could also lead to teasing out some of the Bashir VS Dominion philosophical themes from Hippocratic Oath and The Quickening. SPOILERS This Runabout setup is similar to what will be used in In Purgatory's Shadow.
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William B
Thu, May 9, 2019, 11:52am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: Body Parts

Thinking about the title. The literal read is that it refers to the parts of Quark's body which he sold to Brunt, and indirectly to the baby, transferred from one womb ("body part") to another. With Quark, Brunt is deliberately overvaluing the pieces of Quark over the whole of him, which I think tells us something of what's wrong with Ferengi values. Gint emphasizes that the Rules are important but are worth Quark's life, which is sort of a way of saying that the true "value" of the Ferengi philosophy is "supposed to be" self-interest, which is obviously corrupted if one values The Rules over one's obvious self interest (or the body parts over the living body). The B-plot seems to emphasize that the upsetting loss of the child from Keiko's body similarly is not as important as the lives of all involved, which are protected. And the end of the main plot has everyone in Quark's makeshift community reconstructing his empty bar with various "parts" from elsewhere, emphasizing that it's not the constituent elements themselves but the whole which makes something up (maybe).

The ep's ending is an obvious It's A Wonderful Life reference (or When Flanders Failed) which is funny because of course Quark is emphatically not George Bailey...to us. To Brunt, he is. (A philanthropist!) IAWL similarly has an element where ultracapitalist Potter tells George that, because of his life insurance policy, George is worth more dead than alive.
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William B
Tue, May 7, 2019, 12:51pm (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Resolutions

@Peter, lol. That said, I mean, mostly every episode of every series has some elements that we know for meta reasons aren't going to happen. The ship/station will probably not be blown up (except in the movies; the Defiant is different because it's not the central location, DS9 is), no more than one main character is ever likely to die in a given non-season finale episode, the Federation is probably not going to lose a war, etc. Because a romance is in principle possible, it feels like Melgrew's conviction makes the meta reasons stronger than on other shows, and that's true to an extent.

I am ambivalent about the J/C material, mostly because except for some places like Scorpion I don't think Chakotay was very interesting. But I do think the romantic tension serves a purpose distinct from whether they'll get together, which is to highlight how constrained Janeway always is by her duty, the impossibility of real intimacy in her situation, at least the way she interprets it. This is worthwhile IMO even if we know J/C will never get together in the full romantic sense.
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William B
Tue, May 7, 2019, 11:29am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Resolutions

I liked this one last time I watched it because I think Melgrew is so good, but in general it's hard to sell the series lead giving up on her series goal for an episode convincingly, particularly when there is a whole subplot taking up time. Thinking of other equivalents, most of the other times the captain gives up on their leadership for a time is because of some fantastic element, often involving memory erasure, like Kirk in The Paradise Syndrome, (spoiler) Janeway again in Workforce, or, notably, Picard in The Inner Light, where it takes decades for him to settle into his new life. What we get here is some indication that it's more for the crew than for herself that Janeway devotes her whole being to getting home, though even then "for the crew" is partly a proxy for her own guilt, which she wants to let go of but can't as long as the crew is there.

Chakotay is simpler, in that his ties to the AQ are already fading, his father is dead, his ability to maintain a spiritual connection to his past is (ironically, given the whole sacred land thing) mostly independent of where he is, and he's more focused on Kathryn than anyone else.
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William B
Tue, May 7, 2019, 11:21am (UTC -5)
Re: VOY S2: Resolutions

I agree the metaphors (especially that monkey) were on the blunt side, but I do think it makes sense to have the destruction of the equipment to be extreme and absolute, in order to justify Janeway fully giving up, particularly on the time scale of the episode. It would be interesting, though, to show Janeway giving up more of her own volition, in order to suggest more strongly what I think the episode does imply to an extent, which is that the crew really does need her more than she needs them. That said, I think having Janeway making this decision "unforced" (by storms etc.) this early in the series might feel unbalanced, so I think I like that this particular temptation is one basically forced upon her.
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William B
Mon, May 6, 2019, 1:17pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

FWIW, my experience of the film was closer to what Elliott described, especially with the Holdo/Poe story. I would have to revisit the film more carefully to be able to say whether the cost-benefit analysis of Holdo's decision to keep Poe out of the loop made sense for her. At the time it tracked for me, but I have forgotten many of the plot details surrounding it (how much the withholding of information was necessary to fool the First Order fleet, for instance).
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