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He's dead, Jim.
Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 2:57am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S2: The Measure of a Man

Jason R., Peter G. thanks for adding those interesting points. It's comforting to know that in a time when the world seems so upside down, there's a certain calm temerity and respect for philosophy among sci-fi fans, that remains unchanged.

Peter, you bring up a valid point, that the comparison at play here is a different one, and any time the use of force against someone else, especially one as destructive as murder, is in play, the stakes are certainly very high.

Yet, to the believer, in the context of Pascal's wager, the odds are higher still. Should your body perish, years, perhaps decades are lost. Should your spirit be condemned, however, your entire existence is lost forever. There is no limit to your loss.

The point of the argument I made, is that no matter how infinitely great the cost of an imagined threat is, if the threat is indeed imagined, such loss should not be factored into the equation.

By using this faulty logic, a party, such as Picard, could escape the logical rigor of having to prove Data's sentience--a position, like the question of God's existence, which can neither be proved nor disproved.

In this way, I was simply mirroring what those before me had pointed out, though at the time of writing, I had not read those posts. Since one should not consider the possible costs when the likelihood of those costs happening is nil, such an argument could only be valid if there is at the least some likelihood they might occur.

However, proving that likelihood requires external evidence to support your case, and the costs themselves do nothing to add to Picard's case. Which is why a Christian, who has other reasons for believing in God, finds Pascal's wager a lot more convincing than an atheist, who already finding no reason to believe, is no more swayed by thinking of the possible costs. In short, the wager simply reinforces whatever the individual had already believed a priori.

Ultimately, whether Picard was right to win that debate or not is besides the point (though as I explained before, I do believe he provided enough doubt for an examination of the risks to be merited). The larger question, and the more meaningful takeaway, is that if we assume machines could become evolved enough, then it is possible for them to reach a point where there is no difference between them and other life forms, and at that point, our current (real life) assumptions about machines fail to hold up.
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He's dead, Jim.
Fri, Dec 4, 2020, 5:35am (UTC -6)
Re: TNG S2: The Measure of a Man

As a newcomer to TNG, I generally hate it. I bear no pre-conceived prejudice toward the show; on the contrary, after falling in love with TOS, I was excited to check out the Next Generation of the show. Unfortunately, in nearly every category except the impressive effects and larger budget, it seemed to me a disaster, coasting off the success of the former show and movies. Terrible acting, bad stories that rip off a TOS episode half the time, etc.

And then this happened. I decided to watch Measure of a Man, expectations set rather low by this point. I am really impressed by both the writing and acting; it's as if the show did a complete 180. Who knew Picard and Riker could actually do a pretty damn good job when given the chance? Heck, even Geordi (exactly what does he do besides have space-age glasses?) has a great scene with Data before it looks like he will be forced to resign.

This is the first episode I've seen in about 1.5 seasons (though admittedly I've not seen most of them, just a handful from that range that sounded like they might not totally suck) that actually feels like it belongs in Star Trek. It managed to intelligently handle a complex issue, and it actually changed my mind by the end.

I went in expecting the idea of giving a machine "rights" to be ludicrous nonsense, with any comparison to slavery being a predictable cliche and inaccurate analogy. To the writer(s)' credit, they do a great job of presenting that viewpoint, presumably one most people watching already hold.

Then they show the other viewpoint, which makes such a compelling case, I am genuinely at a loss for how to disprove it (which you actually can't, nor can you prove it, and I will explain why in a moment.)

The idea that Data is unequivocally a machine, yet he is sufficiently advanced, that he has evolved enough from the earliest calculator, that it is impossible to find a pertinent criterium that actually distinguishes him from any other natural life form. This idea is something I've never thought about before, and my reaction after Picard lay out this viewpoint was probably the same as Maddox's.

Not only is this idea so brilliantly handled, and the dialogue very well delivered, but the wording of the lines themselves is so eloquent.

"Does Data have a soul? I don't know. I don't know if I have one. But I think he should be free to discover that for himself."

Now that I have given the writers and cast sufficient credit for pulling off an amazing episode I did not think possible for this show, let's acknowledge that it is far from perfect, though the faults listed below do very little, if anything, to detract from the excellent quality of the episode.

There is a glaring conflict of interest present in the episode, namely Picard's prior history with the acting judge of the case. She so obviously has feelings for him and wants to get back together with him. If nothing else, she at least wants his forgival for being too harsh against him in a prior case. And now she's going to decide a case in which Picard is one of the litigants. Obviously, she's biased to let Picard win.

Then the idea of giving Riker the role as prosecution is also a conflict of interest, which he does somewhat acknowledge before reluctantly accepting it. Riker is supposed to act in the prosecution's best interest, but he keeps quiet when Picard references Yara's brief liason with Data in a very misleading manner. She went crazy, because everybody went crazy that episode (another bad TOS plot rip-off), yet Picard presents it to those unfamiliar with that event as if Data had a genuine emotional relationship with her.

Why is it that the Federation needs to dismantle Data to find out how he works and mass produce him? I always figured Data was already one of many. It seems pretty stupid that if Data is your only working prototype, to place him on board a ship like the Enterprise where conflict with hostiles is commonplace and risk of losing life is relatively high (if you wear a red shirt of course :) ) Wouldn't you want to keep him some place really secure, working in some classified program in a Pentagon-like facility? Especially if you don't know how to replicate him?

And where's the patent? Surely the creator would have had blueprints that he saved, and applied to the Federation for patents? I guess this future without money (and no incentive to protect your IP) isn't quite as swell as Picard likes to boast it is.

This need to dissect Data might have been more believable if he were already one of many, but Data had some human-like quality that made him an exception, perhaps something in his artificial brain that the others don't have, that came about spontaneously. That would also go a long way to supporting the notion he is a life form, if he can adapt to his environment and develop features outside of his programming.

Finally,--and this isn't a problem with the plot--Picard's core argument is deeply fallacious, as I hinted at earlier. Why? Because it's essentially Pascal's wager.

If you're unfamiliar with Pascal's wager, it is the idea that everyone should believe in God, because the consequences for taking the risk of not believing and turning out to be wrong are just far too costly to ignore. In other words, if you waste your life going to church and praying, at worst you've been a moral person (theoretically) who lost a little time on Sundays. But if you refuse to believe Christianity (or whatever religion) your eternal soul is damned to an eternity in hell. Even if you believe God doesn't exist, is it wise to take that risk when the potential loss is so great?

The Picard-Data version of this old fallacy is as follows: "Data is probably not a life form. He is, after all, a machine that just somewhat resembles a man. But if there is a chance that he does have a "soul"; if he really could be a sentient being just like other life forms, then by denying his rights you are setting a precedent that will condemn him, and all future Data "life forms" like him to generations of slavery.

Given humanity's dark past with slavery, and the inability of the slaveowners to see the error of their thinking from their own time period, this is a very persuasive rhetorical argument.

But logically, it relies on an assumed presupposition: namely, that there is indeed a big enough chance that Data is really a life form.

You could use this same "Pascal's wager" argument to "prove" monkeys deserve equal rights as men, because if you're wrong...
But nobody would seriously entertain that idea because there is no chance the chimp in the zoo has sentience the way we do. (and that chimp is a lot closer to being human than Data is).

As an atheist, I reject the Pascal's wager proposition, because I see no reason to seriously entertain the idea there is a chance at all God exists; therefore, any consideration of the potential consequences is entirely irrelevant.

If we assume that Data is a machine, and by definition machines are incapable of genuine thought or emotion, then there is no chance he could have a soul, and we should not worry whether machines designed to make work easier have programmed reactions to such work. Picard has sidestepped the question of "Is Data alive?" and takes advantage of the fear associated with, "Well what if he is?" to convince the judge and viewer of his case.

But I suppose therein lies the beauty of the argument in this context, and the lofty sci-fi question proposed by the writers. We truly do not know that Data isn't alive. There is a plausible chance he could be genuinely sentient; we are lying outside the margin of error.

In this interpretation, Star Trek TNG asks us not to view Data as a proxy for computers of today, but as the idea of what a computer could be far in the future. It asks, if a.i. could eventually become sufficiently evolved, as we are sufficiently evolved, and sufficiently removed from its binary origins, as we are from single-celled bacteria, could it ever reach a point where it's indistinguishable from what we consider a life form? I, and I would think most people, assumed no. TNG challenged that assumption, and succeeded in changing my mind to a position I began the episode mocking. That is truly commendable.

"The Measure of a Man" is an episode that has only grown more relevant since the time it first aired. The developing field of a.i. learning has now opened up a world previously thought impossible. It was taken for granted that you can't create new pixels for a truly higher quality image than what was originally present. You can zoom in, but it'll just become blurry. The artificial "intelligence" of today's world no longer follows just a user-defined algorithm, but it learns and improves its own algorithm over time the more data it collects. One could say it "learns from experience," in a manner of speaking. We've still got some way to go before giving Siri orders is outlawed as slavery, but we are much closer to the world TNG and Data ask us to imagine than ever before thought possible.
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Leon Jimenez
Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 5:21am (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S5: Latent Image

Red Dwarf's episode Thanks for the Memories inspired 2 Star Trek episodes (one TNG and this one) and they both blew it. TNG tried to focus on the mystery of the Red Dwarf Episode and this dealt with the "emotion" and both were pale comparisons.
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JimWZDP
Fri, May 8, 2020, 12:38am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S2: Marauders

“Kill the Klingons at once”.

That still sticks out and makes me laugh.

Rewatching the series, and watching this episode always brings to mind Jammer’s solution to the problem. Which is what happened in “The Magnificent Seven” (which this episode is lifted from).

They killed most of the bad guys there (including the head bad guy).

Kill the bad guys. Problem solved.
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Jimmy
Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 4:52am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: The Passenger

I found this episode a bit tedious and admit I quit a bit after the halfway point. Before I knew any details of the situation when i heard "make me live!" It was clear he was passing his conciousness to Bashir. I've seen this kind of thing before. So as the episode continued it was hard to watch all the red herrings waiting for the characters to catch up with me. Currently rewatching all Trek first seasons and DS9 so far has been second only to TOS for me.
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Jim Steffel
Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 2:32am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1

@Peter G. I’m not sure if the writers were confused or not. It is very possible but I 100% agree on your mind meld assessment. I too always believed mind melds required telepathic abilities which is not something you can just learn.
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Jimmy
Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 12:56am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S1: The Andorian Incident

As I am rewatching 5 ST series at once (no Kelvan) I check here after every episode and must say this is one of the most articulate and thoughtful comment section I have experienced in 24 years on the internet. Thank you all and thank you Jammer! As far as this particular episode, it is the mpst enjoyable so far of the STE for me. Hostage situation was route yes, however the end I did not see coming, that surprise alone elevates it above my initial perceptions.
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Jimmy
Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 7:01am (UTC -6)
Re: ENT S1: Unexpected

So...The alien female knew she was initiating a form of sex and Trip didn't. Bit rapey. It feels like they just wanted the comedy associated with a male pregnancy (is it though) and didn't care what surrounded it.
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Jimbo
Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 6:23pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Broken Pieces

Pretty decent episode, and now starting to connect all the dots.

So romulans go to attack soji homeworld. Picard can't stop them, star fleet mini fleet wiped out, Borg ship flys in to save the day. Soji kills evil pointy eared one. seven becomes Borg queen / sauron, makes the Aussie elf her assimilated orc. Evil brother appears, captures soji. Cue season 2.
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Jim Witte
Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 10:34am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S2: Melora

> By the 24th century, we could surely have a wheelchair which can go over obstacles

Heck, it's the twenty-*first* century, and we *already* have the technology to make wheelchairs that can go over (simple) obstacles. I don't know if anyone is making a wheelchair with such, but they could.)
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Jimmy
Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 3:35pm (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Stardust City Rag

My first comment on here. Discovery took 4 or 5 episodes to get me in to it (and I really enjoyed it, apart from Michael) and it's taken 5 in Picard for something to actually happen.

So far, it feels like the writers have just played mass effect 2, storyline pretty much identical. Build a team, go to a nightclub ruled by a powerful woman, negotiate a deal, now to save the galaxy.

It's not terrible, but I think the major problem is some scenes are rushed, or not enough information given, or characters are used to explain things to the audience. All this is because after adverts, intro and flashbacks each episode is about 35 minutes long. 50 mins would allow much more freedom.

I've not really warmer to any of the characters. Picard's voice has lost its gravitas and his stature. Ryan is definitely the best thing to happen so far. Picking up something that someone mentioned above, a series around seven would have worked better, with cameos from Picard, Janeway etc would have made a better series.

Each episode so far 2/4, none have stood out.
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JIm
Mon, Feb 3, 2020, 7:30pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night

Jake should use the Orb of Time to visit his ancestors smoking weed and playing bass in a Rastafarian band. LOL
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JIm
Mon, Feb 3, 2020, 3:07pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S6: The Reckoning

There is no way Worf would abandon his post and leave no one in control of the station even as it was about to explode. There are numerous civilian ships that are lightly armored in the area and if there is a huge explosion on DS9 there must be someone there in Ops to attempt to protect them or at least steer the burning wreckage of the station away from a city if it come crashing down to Bajor.

Worf is the executive officer of DS9 and in charge of operations. There is no way he is leaving his post. Perhaps this again shows how the writers have little understanding of military traditions.
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Jim Smith
Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 5:48am (UTC -6)
Re: PIC S1: Remembrance

Watching this for the second time, I genuinely felt a twinge of anger. Because clearly it's possible to write a decent Trek series these days. This opening episode proves it. So how come Discovery's first two seasons were so utterly *wretched* in the main?

I loved nearly everything about this opener. I loved the continuity nods. I loved the supporting cast and their characters. I loved the visuals of space and Earth. And most of all, I loved Patrick Stewart and Picard. Boy have I missed them. His shredding of the news interviewer was pitch-perfect. And speaking not pitch-perfect, Brent Spiner still has that Data voice nailed. Yeah, he's aged some. But we're seeing him in dreams, so it's easy to imagine him looking slightly 'off'.

The episode pacing was good, slow and contemplative when it needed to be before ramping up the speed and the tension when Dahj and Picard are attacked. I thought that it was going to feel a bit rushed, especially with the last couple of minutes being devoted to a teaser for the season ahead. But it felt pretty good to me in the end.

Biggest problem? Want more! :-)
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Jim
Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 11:29am (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: If Wishes Were Horses

I remember this one as silly, and too immediately thought of TNG "Where No One Has Gone Before". Which - thinking back on it - begs the obvious question - why the $#%@ didn't O'Brien mention exactly that episode when he was aboard the Enterprise as "something strange like this happened on the Enterprise (you know, back at the beginning when we encountered a new spatial anomaly every month or so.)"

Another episode they could have hooked it up to was "Allegiance" - perhaps making "Bokai" be one of the same aliens who showed up. (Or probably a different one of the same species. I assume the one/two in Allegiance learned their lesson)

Or both - the "Allegiance" aliens could be from the what/where/when-ever from "Where No One Has Gone Before".
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Jim
Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 1:32pm (UTC -6)
Re: BSG S2: Resurrection Ship, Part 2

I've been watching the series for the first time. Jammer's Reviews and the comments are terrific. Keep commenting Brian!
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Jimmy
Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 8:12pm (UTC -6)
Re: DS9 S1: Duet

For me simply the best Star Trek episode ever written! Excellent acting all around. Captivating and riveting dialogue. Not one punch thrown, not one phaser fired, not one explosion. The current people working on Star Trek could learn a lot from this episode. 4/4 stars ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
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Jim Seigler
Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 9:29pm (UTC -6)
Re: TOS S1: The Enemy Within

Just rewatched this.
Interesting how they called "evil Kirk" an imposter.
He was a part of Kirk, not a fake version.
I recall reading the novelization of all 1st season episodes, and in that, Spock actually noted that "evilKirk" is just as much Captain Kirk as "goodKirk", or that goodKirk was just as much imposter as evilKirk, point being, that neither goodKirk nor evilKirk were the real James Kirk; both had equal claims, and yet while separate, neither was the real artifact.
Anyway, interesting the novelizations.
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JimwZDP
Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 4:58pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S4: Vis A Vis

I just discovered this site, as I’ve been binge watching the Star Trek episodes on Netflix. The reviews and comments are insightful, on point an humorous when need be.

Which is why I have to disagree with the score on this. It has the funniest and most truthful statement in that whole series. And yes, I know everybody loves “The Doctor”. But I find him to be the most obnoxiously overbearing pedantic boor on the entire show. And yes, Robert Picardo is a fine actor who plays that character well. But this exchange is classi
CHAKOTAY: I've been reading a report from the Doctor. You didn't show up today.
PARIS: I was a little busy this morning. Saving someone's life, as I recall.
CHAKOTAY: Is there something wrong, Tom? Anything bothering you?
PARIS: Nothing is wrong. Since when is not wanting to spend time with the Doctor a capital offence? You'd have to throw the whole crew in the brig for that one.
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Jimmy
Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:05pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2

I can't and never will consider Discovery as ANY part of classic Star Trek canon. Probably not the Picard show,Or the Section 31 show either.I don't care what CBS or the show-runners say. Discovery is just too aesthetically and tonality different for me to reconcile it with classic Trek. They have just taken wayyyy too many liberties with aesthetics and canon. The ridiculous things for me that will never fit in for instance the R2-D2 like droids on the Enterprise hull or the Red Angel Iron Man suit . They are not era appropriate. For me these and the terrible (IMO) writing and unlikable characters are just insulting, laughable and cringe worthy . But if people like it that's absolutely fine. Everyone is different and has different opinions and tastes. I totally get it I just can't bring myself to watch it.
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Jim1701
Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 3:22pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

@Quincy......

You can get your point across, if you have one, without the language.

This is a forum for discussion and points can be made without fuc*ing
this and fuc*ing that.
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Jim1701
Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 9:15pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: The Road Not Taken

Well it had to happen sooner or later I suppose.

Tonight was The Orville takes on the Star Wars universe with a little
bit of the usual Star Trek baggage that the show has for good measure.

We even get Alara back for a couple of scenes and if I am not mistaken a snatch
of music from either Alien or Aliens when the crew enter the Orville at the
bottom of the ocean.

It is quite the mismash going on here and much to my surprise, it all works and
works quite well.

I was engaged from the moment the ep started right up to the end even tho the
end was not a surprise, the ride there was just one of those things that one can
watch with a smile on the face and enjoy the silliness as it unfolds.

Good way to end the season and hope to see season III.

4 stars for me on this one.
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Jim1701
Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 2:33pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S2: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

Every week I tune into The Orville and ask myself "What TNG rehash am I going to
see this week?"

Truth be told, I do not mind most of it. The Orville is the closest thing to what I call
Star Trek, to what I grew up with being Star Trek and is just enough far away from
Star Trek to allow me to enjoy this universe that The Orville exists in.

Its hard for me to place this show. On some levels I hate it and on some others
I really enjoy it but for what it is worth, it keeps me coming back for more and
that I guess is enough for it to make it work for me.

This time around we get "Second Chances".

This time around, instead of a transporter accident we get a gravity wave.

This time around we get old relationships that seem to have come and gone
but are suddenly renewed when one party gets the chance to make up for the
mistakes that ended it in the first place.

TNG handled this material better IMHO.

In TNG, Riker be he the Riker we know or the RIker that has had his wheels
spinning are pretty much the same Riker. Here the Kelly that is and the Kelly
that was come off as two different people.

One is a Commander and in charge of her life and the other comes off like a
confused child who likes to party and "dreams" of being a Captain and being
married and having people like her and berates her older self for not having
done those things.

Seven years, if this is your career track is not that great a period of time and
I would have expected younger Kelly and older Kelly to be more in tune with
the younger one having more of the rough edges.

Think Commander Shelby and Riker in TNG:TBOBW and you get an idea of
what should have been happening here.

And Mercer comes off like a complete jerk here IMHO. He could not handle the
fact that Kelly moved on, so much so that he ended up being jealous and even
stalked her a bit jumps at the chance to "try" again and is put off by loud music
while the rest of the crew gets their freak on.....

Again, TNG did this and did so in a much more convincing way.

2 stars for me.

This show is following the TNG track as far as eps go.

In TNG, the first season is total garbage with one or two standouts.

Season 2 got better but still had rough edges.

Season 3 is where it took off and became what it would become.

If The Orville gets a third season, I expect that pattern to continue as
the bugs will finally have been worked out.
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Jim
Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 3:34pm (UTC -6)
Re: VOY S4: The Omega Directive

I just rewatched the end of it. The thing that *really* bothered me was when Janeway said in her closing log that it she was going to destroy it. (Though I suppose maybe she just meant "it will now be locked away in the computer's coldest cold-storage, encrypted with post-quantum-ring-learning-with-errors-to-the-thousanth-power, then transferred to a holocube and placed in an air-and-subspace-gapped vault until Section 31 pulls it out..)

If indeed Seven's Magic-Chamber-Of-MacGuffin-Balls indeed worked (it wasn't a fluke), then Janeway destroyed the best way to *neutralize* Omega in the future. The mission itself showed that other races could indeed create it - which is why the directive existed in the first place. Classify the information at the highest levels, certainly. But don't destroy it. I'm guessing the NSA/CIA/GCHQ/etc have done exactly this with nuclear EMP technology.

To do what the Omega Directive said (destroy it *and* all information) would have been like if (during the Cold War), the US had made some discovery about the danger of nuclear weapons before the USSR - but we knew that the USSR knew about it as well.

And then the US just threw up it's collective hands and said - "yeah, we know the USSR has this weapon that can destroy the world - but this is just too dangerous, so we're going to stop *all* research, and destroy it for good measure. Sayonara I guess if the USSR decides to destroy the world!"

Or for an example (maybe) a bit more relevant to today:

Us saying that nuclear power is too dangerous because of the waste problem, so we shut down *everything* - including research into fourth-generation nuclear that might provide a safer and better way to do it. (liquid sodium fluoride, pebble bed reactors, etc. that *cannot* melt down).

Even though other countries already can do the "too dangerous nuclear technology" themselves. And we don't do the research (and then give/license/sell it to others). Not to mention that *that* (fourth generation nuclear reactor technology) may be (at least part) of the only way to generate nearly enough electrical energy (*) to run everything we do now *and* the 99.8% of current non-electric cars that would have to be replaced (**)

(*) In combination with wind, solar, hydroelectric, tidal, geothermal - including perhaps deep-sea geothermal outfits above the Mid Atlantic Ridge:

See "Hawaii is chasing 100% renewable energy — with active volcanoes" (2015) [https://www.businessinsider.com/hawaii-volcanoes-first-100-percent-renewable-energy-state-us-2015-7]

(**) "There are more than 2 million electric vehicles on the road around the world" (2017) [https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/06/there-are-more-than-2-million-electric-vehicles-on-the-road-around-the-world/]:

"Although more than 2 million EVs now travel the world’s roads, they only make up 0.2 percent of the total light-duty passenger vehicle share around the world." [And that's not counting the trucks or other things.]
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Jimmy
Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 9:08pm (UTC -6)
Re: TOS S2: Metamorphosis

I don't understand all the fuss about the end of the episode. Hedford is basically the same as an organ donor today. She finds happiness with Cockrane.
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