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Iceman
Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 9:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S7: What You Leave Behind

@Jasper-You watched 7,920 minutes of a show that you had nothing positive to say about. Life's too short for that.
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Iceman
Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 8:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Search, Part I

Oh, and another cool thing about this episode is that Babylon 5 ripped it off-the White Star debuted a year *after* this episode. Kina pokes a hole in the "DS9 is nothing more than a Babylon 5 ripoff!".
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Iceman
Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:10am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Visionary

Even though "Visionary" is technically an O'Brien story, it goes out of its way to give everyone in the ensemble a chance to shine. From Odo's "Sometimes I have to remind you just how good I am" to Kira's fight with the Romulans, most of the main characters have a great moment in this one. I wish more DS9 episodes did that. Onto the actual plot, Ira Steven Behr didn't like this one because he said it was too much like a TNG episode. I really don't see that as a problem. The setup is very much TNG, but the backdrop is pure DS9. And as far as technobabble episodes go, this is excellent. It's really fun, well constructed, and makes at least a modicum of sense. It also holds up to re-watches, which I can't say for other episodes such as "Cause and Effect" which was exciting the first time but is pretty repetitive and boring on re-watches. Sure, it's convenient that O'Brien always jumped forward to the exact right time to prevent a disaster, but as far as regular DS9 episodes that aren't status-quo shattering like a certain upcoming two-parter, this one would rank fairly highly. It might not be in the very top tier of DS9 episodes, but it's very high quality.

3.5 stars.
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Iceman
Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:07am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Prophet Motive

It's annoying that so many of these Ferengi episodes can't decide whether they want to be comedies or dramas-when that happens, they end up accomplishing neither very well. "Prophet Motive" continues that trend, except it also wastes the Prophets. Bashir winning an award was just odd. Not bad, but completely neutral.

1.5 stars.
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Iceman
Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:03am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Destiny

"Destiny" is built upon interesting ideas, but it's not a very compelling episode. It can't really decide which of its interesting ideas to fully explore, and ends up saying almost nothing at all. A weak and fluffy B plot with O'Brien doesn't help, although Diamond Dave is correct that it adds depth to the Cardassians-not that they need it.

2.5 stars
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Iceman
Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 12:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Heart of Stone

The Nog sections of "Heart of Stone" are fantastic-Aaron Eisenberg steps up in a big way, and his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet are believable and poignant. There's been some talk in the comments above about how it's unbelievable that Nog could get into Starfleet due to Wesley and Picard failing. To me, it's a difference between how TNG and DS9 portray Starfleet Academy. In TNG, you did indeed basically have to be Isaac Newton to get in. That didn't make much sense to me-if you really had to be at the very upper end of the human intelligence range to make it at the Academy, why are there so many people in Starfleet? In DS9, as long as you're intelligent and a hard worker, you can make it in the Academy. That makes more sense to me overall. The A-plot is pretty interesting, but far from riveting. It works due to the strength of Nana Visitor and Rene Auberjonois's performances, but it definitely drags on for too long. Overall, a solid episode.

3 stars.
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Iceman
Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 12:44pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Life Support

"Life Support" has two major problems. The A-story has potential as a pivotal episode in the Bajor arc (except that there is no Bajor arc, so that's another problem with this episode, and the series as a whole) and an emotional episode for Kira, but it's completely done in by terrible acting by Phillip Anglim as Bareil. The second problem is that there's some massive tonal whiplash with the silly and misguided B-plot. It's not funny or amusing, and has a very odd message. Unlike "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River", the two plots don't elevate each other-in fact, they do the exact opposite.

1.5 stars.
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Iceman
Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:00pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Invasive Procedures

@William B-That's somewhat true, but I really love "Chain of Command Part 2" and "Tapestry". They're both probably in my top ten. But, DS9 might have *more* high points. Opening arc minus "Sons and Daughters", "Waltz", "Statistical Probabilities", "Inquisition", "Far Beyond the Stars", "In the Pale Moonlight", and "The Magnificent Ferengi". That's a lot of fantastic episodes in one season. In terms of consistency, there are also lots of ill-conceived episodes in DS9 S6 even before the ending fizzle-these episodes aren't bad per se in their execution, but the idea was pretty bad to begin with: A shrinking runabout, a Morn episode, bringing back Bareil, doing a Donnie Brasco "homage", ruining Gul Dukat, etc. Not every episode needed to be focused on the Dominion War, but they should have told more vital stories. TNG S6 opens pretty weakly, but not terribly, and after "A Fistful of Datas", it's a smooth ride, give or take "Aquiel". So, overall, DS9 S6 is chock full of fantastic episodes, along with 1 or 2 abominations and a fair amount of mediocrity. TNG has a couple fantastic ones, lots of very good episodes, and about 3 middling episodes ("Fistful of Datas", "Birthright Part 2", and "Suspicions") and 3 awful ones ("Man of the People", "Rascals", and "Aquiel"). So I guess you're right in that it's down to consistency vs peaks.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 1:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Invasive Procedures

Though, the Season 6 one if highly variable. I think TNG might actually take it. It's close, but I think It does:

Season 6: TNG>DS9>VOY
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 10:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part II

I agree with the consensus here that Part 2 is a let down. The events surrounding the Bell riots just aren't that interesting in and of themselves.

3 stars.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 10:34am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Past Tense, Part I

The social commentary in this episode may not be subtle, but it's a hell of a lot better than the lauded social commentary of the Original Series. It's also not that far off from reality, to be honest. And, to be fair, the fact that Sisko and Bashir get thrown in a sanctuary district while Dax doesn't *is* very subtle and a nice piece of commentary. "Past Tense Part 1" also happens to be an emotionally gripping episode with strong acting and character work.

4 stars.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 10:29am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Meridian

You know, I think I'm going to downgrade this pile of crap to 0.5 stars-it would be zero without the subplot. The A-story is just as bad as "Profit and Lace".
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 10:27am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Fascination

"Fascination" maybe isn't quite as bad as "Meridian", but it's a terrible episode regardless. The plot just doesn't work on tv. It's incredibly forced, awkward, and cringeworthy. I also hated the subplot. On the plus side, it's not offensively bad, just impossible to take seriously or really enjoy.

1.5 stars.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 10:06am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Defiant

It's an interesting idea to bring back Tom Riker from "Second Chances", and it pays off well. It's an interesting twist, and his character works very well with Kira. Add in some peak Gul Dukat and political intrigue, and it all adds up to a damn fine episode.

3.5 stars.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 10:03am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Meridian

Ummmm............no thank you. "Meridian" is completely awful in every way. The end.

Fine-the romance is hilariously unconvincing, the subplot is gross and uncomfortable. Though the payoff was quite funny.

1 star for the subplot payoff I suppose.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 10:00am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Civil Defense

This episode is an immense amount of fun for what it is. The Dukat scenes, are, as usual, pure gold. However, the premise would be a lot more believable had this episode been made in Season 1. It would have been a lot more tense as well.

3 stars.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 9:37am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Abandoned

The Jake subplot was weak and ineffective, but the main plot with Odo was affecting and tragic, even if it wasn't transcendent. It's nice that even this early into the run, DS9 was playing with serialization by acknowledging the Dominion throughout the season. The biggest problem with the third season is that there weren't more episodes like "The Abandoned".

3 stars.
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Iceman
Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 9:34am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Second Skin

"Second Skin" is great drama. It further develops the Cardassians-easily the most interesting of the major aliens in the Trek universe-and manages to generate some tension even though the audience should be fairly sure that Kira isn't a Cardassian. Plus, more Garak is *always* welcome. Though, the original ending was ambiguous, which I feel they should have kept.

3.5 stars.
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Iceman
Thu, Aug 9, 2018, 9:36pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: Invasive Procedures

@Elliott-Okay, I know I'm responding to a 4 year old comment, but here are my Trek season rankings:

Season 1: TOS>VOY>DS9>DSC>TNG>ENT
Season 2: TOS>DS9>TNG>VOY>ENT
Season 3: TNG>ENT>DS9>VOY>TOS
Season 4: DS9>TNG>ENT>VOY
Season 5: DS9>TNG>VOY
Season 6: DS9>TNG>VOY
Season 7: DS9>TNG>VOY
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Iceman
Thu, Aug 9, 2018, 9:31pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Equilibrium

Another Dax episode that doesn't work. Though I agree with Jammer about the character moments, they're really the only bright spot in a poorly executed episode.

2 stars.
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Iceman
Thu, Aug 9, 2018, 9:29pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The House of Quark

"The House of Quark" is simply fantastic-a great, genuinely funny script carried by an excellent performance by Armin Shimmerman. Quark genuinely gets to be a hero, and it's lovely to see. The fact that he has great chemistry with Grilka, and that it's a very well paced hour don't hurt either.

4 stars.
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Iceman
Thu, Aug 9, 2018, 9:25pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: The Search, Part II

And so Season 3 begins. The results are impressive, but flawed. It's clearly aiming to be a second pilot, and in some ways is very exciting and compelling. Unfortunately, awkward pacing and structure hold back both episodes a fair amount.

3 stars each.
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Iceman
Thu, Aug 9, 2018, 9:14pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: The Maquis, Part II

@Elliott-Actually, I liked and agreed with your reviews of these two episodes, and I gave them the same score as you did. You're right in that the Maquis fall flat because there's a perfectly reasonable solution available, and they decline it out of stubbornness. It's the same problem I had with "Sanctuary". I was responding to your paragraph in which you said that DS9 undermines the Trek ethos without a solid argument to replace it, which I believe to be incorrect.

"I have criticisms of Voyager, and I loathe Enterprise. I’m excited that I’m getting close to “Caretaker” in the reviews. I don’t think Voyager is anything close to flawless or the best Trek. I have problems with it, I promise :) "

Well, at least we can agree on Enterprise :). And probably that TNG is great. And though I do consider DS9 the best trek and probably one of my top three shows of all time, I have problems with it too. My ratings for Season 2 are similar to yours. And I didn't hate Voyager, I just wanted it to be better than it was. "Living Witness" and "Blink of An Eye" are some of my personal favorite Trek episodes.
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Iceman
Thu, Aug 9, 2018, 7:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: The Maquis, Part II

And, obviously, I meant "un-Trek like". Sorry for the typo.
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Iceman
Thu, Aug 9, 2018, 7:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S2: The Maquis, Part II

@Elliott-It never ceases to amuse me how you claim that DS9 is an attack on Roddenberry's values, while defending Voyager ceaselessly. Voyager is a show with some extremely problematic episodes, with some racist ("Alliances"), anti-immigration ("Displaced"), and anti-refugee ("Day of Honor").

DS9 is cynical of power structures like Starfleet, true. But it retains the fundamental optimism about the humans within them. For example, in "Hard Time", "O'Brien thinks he's nothing more than an animal, convinced that humans are rotten to the core. But Bashir convinces him otherwise.

Or, to take another example, Garak in "The Die is Cast" discovers that he no longer has the stomach to be a ruthless Cardassian interrogator, suggesting that liberal values will spread by association-no cultural imperialism needed.

Or, for a third, the series sides with Bashir's idealism over cynicism time and time again, in "Hippocratic Oath", "Our Man Bashir", "The Quickening", and the aforementioned "Hard Time".

Or, for a fourth, the series repeatedly condemns Odo for his preference for justice over order, in episodes such as "Things Past". It argues, that by doing nothing to stop or undermine the Occupation, he was as good as a collaborator. That's a very Roddenberry idea.

DS9 is also the only Star Trek show to acknowledge that viewpoints outside of the Federation's can be valid, from the Bajoran's religious faith to the Ferengi's mercantilist economy. Do they need reform? Sure, but they're just as valid a world-view as the Federation's. Again, that's an idea (mulitulturalism) that's very in keeping with Roddenberry's ideals.

Oh, and it's hard to find a Star Trek episode that more effectively conveys Trek's message than "Far Beyond the Stars", a stunning episode all about the power in daring to believe in a better future.

So, I disagree with you that DS9 feels in-Trek like, I disagree with you that it undermines the leftist philosophies of Star Trek, and I disagree that it has no arguments. Still, even if your posts irritate me sometimes, they're always interesting to read. Keep up the posts Elliott.

And credit to Darren Mooney for bringing up a lot of his ideas in his reviews.
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