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MidshipmanNorris
Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 5:11pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

"Only when the writers approach the job with the attitude of an artist, aiming to create something new, and ignoring completely what "fans want" will Star Trek, once again, be great art. "

... "Star Trek Fans"

... Something about that sounds odd to me. Like, it feels like Star Trek has been around for such a long time, and winded its way through so many iterations and permutations of the culture surrounding it, that there may in fact be too many different types of fans, at this point, for the phrase to have any real meaning.

Perhaps, the ones with baked-in ideas about "What Star Trek is" aren't the fans themselves, but the writers who approach it?

I imagine that they have this strange, very limited and singular idea of "Who a Star Trek Fan Is" in their minds, when they write this stuff over the last 20 years.

To be honest, you can't boil that down to an archetype. Many people, of many walks of life, all over the world, for almost 60 years now, are fans of Star Trek, for varying reasons.

It would be better for a writer to say to themselves "What do I want to see on Star Trek, as a fan myself?" rather than trying to say "What do Star Trek Fans want to see?"

You aren't dealing with a homogenous group, anymore, really.
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MidshipmanNorris
Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 8:03pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

You know, I feel like I ought to confess something to everyone here who is railing at each new installment "not being like Star Trek" as it were; you may be surprised to learn that I felt this way about Star Trek: Voyager.

See, I'm noticing a running theme, that everyone seems to want to point to Trek 2009 as the "shark jump" point; I do not feel this way.

I started to get turned off, TV-wise, around the time Jadzia Dax was killed by Gul Dukat, and I didn't watch it when it aired on June 17, 1998... I was knee-deep in Final Fantasy VII by that point. Merely hearing about it from other fans (namely, my Dad) was enough for me to say "eh, I dunno if Star Trek is for me anymore." I think Voyager was already out, and I was kind of getting tired of Trek, Trek, Trek, Trek after Trek after Trek, here a Trek, there a Trek, UPN now is its own network, wowee zowee!!!

Every other show on UPN sucked hard. It was a transparent attempt to leverage advertising dollars away from the networks Paramount was beholden to because they thought Star Trek was so popular that people would be willing to watch their entourage of utter garbage shows, simply out of brand loyalty.

They had a fundamental misunderstanding about why Trek fans like Star Trek, in my opinion; it has good stories, that don't rely on cliches or 'easily-pandering-to-the-unwashed-masses' to get their point across. It pushes boundaries of social culture, and uses its stories to address issues which are present in our everyday lives.

In my teenage opinion, DS9 and Voyager were no longer doing that, and it took me years to realize that TNG had stopped doing it, years before it got canned.

The films "Generations" and "First Contact" were fairly good, but I felt like they made some rather questionable decisions, both in killing off James Kirk (some people were upset that he died the way he *did*, and I was upset that they felt like he should die, at all), and in introducing a "Borg Queen."

It seemed, to me, that these decisions were being made to put butts in seats, rather than to try to tell any kind of serious or impactful story.

Look, I don't really care if the phase inducers work the way Geordi said they did in Season 3, Episode 14 or whatever. I don't care if Starfleet's goals and principles remain the same from season to season, show to show. I don't care about any of that. I just wanna see a good story, about people traveling through space (as stated in the title). That's it. That's all. "Is the show any good?"

DS9 and Voyager, and the films, as they went on, began to be more about "events" that would make sure as many people watched them, and either paid the movie theater ticket price, or watched the absolutely horrendous advertising that has only gotten 10x worse as the years pass. Star Trek: Enterprise did much the same, focusing on "event plotlines" that were meant to sound good when told by word of mouth, just to hook you into watching whatever the writing room could agree to shoot this week.

I got tired of it.

Trek 2009, seemed like it would be a respite from all that. Maybe we could get back to telling stories about things, instead of having these "Event Plotlines" that seemed like transparent manipulations of word of mouth...

Then Star Trek: Into Darkness came out, and they played their cards so close to the gol-darned chest that I didn't realize until I was in the movie theater, and Benedict Cumberbatch was saying, "My name is Khan", that I'd been duped; it was another "Event Plotline" that was meant to generate word of mouth.

And that's all they seem to know how to do, anymore. "SOMETHING BIG IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN IN THE WORLD OF STAR TREK, MAKE SURE YOU TUNE IN."

Look, TV Producers, shut the fuck up.

A lot of shit, and I MEAN A LOT OF SHIT has already happened in the world of Star Trek.

I. Just. Want. To. Watch. A. Good. Show.

ST:DISCO Season 3 Ep 1 seems like it could be the building blocks of good shows. I hope this is the case.

Either you cook the stew properly, or it tastes like yesterday's socks.

WRITE. A. STORY.

Don't be stupid. Do your work.
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MidshipmanNorris
Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 5:28pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

This isn't related to Star Trek or this episode at all but I guess I've been reading too many online posts lately because all I keep thinking is 'will you please just try using a spellchecker' -_-

I'm in a bad mood, pardon me
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skye francis-maidstone
Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 6:58pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@CaptainMercer that's actually the only episode I've ever rewatched. Feels like ToS a little and evoked a little actual emotion in me. Whereas the rest of the series leaves me cold while looking pretty - it's rarely boring at least. Just no reason to watch again.

Here we are in episode 1 of season 3 with many comments about how it isn't Star Trek. Didn't we do this already in season 1 and 2 (and PIC and even ENT and *gasp* DS9)?

Harping on about Gene's vision isn't really valid since he didn't agree with many parts of TNG and certainly would have hated DS9 while many consider that to be the best trek or 2nd best at least.

It Star Trek. I don't like it personally but it diverting enough to keep me watching. Not liking it doesn't make it not Trek. I don't particularly enjoy ENT or VOY that much but my dislike doesn't make them not trek.

Anyway this is a really tired topic. Looking forward to Star Trek: Strange New Worlds. Hopefully that will be Star Trek *snort*
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skye francis-maidstone
Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 7:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Just read through the comments which was more entertaining than the episode.

@trent that was hilarious!

@booming nice list. I actually agree with you on 97.3% of your post too which is rare. I enjoyed NuTrek's PIC though so to each their own.

@anthimos for some reason i feel a somewhat misguided sense of loyalty to Star Trek having watched so much of it. As I said before there isn't a lot of good or even average sci-fi about.
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skye francis-maidstone
Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 7:09pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Urgh. 3 out of 10 being generous and thats mostly because it looks gorgeous in 4k.

I mean I had SOME hope after the partial recovery from s1 even if it was mostly due to Anson/Pike. I gave some lee-way being a s1 and first time back for trek on TV in long while. But seriously..

SMG seems have had a character change between seasons and I find her a poor actor anyway but (and not to sound like the most common moan on here): The Writing. It was like bad Star Wars. Large parts made no sense at all. 3100 or wharever and we have futuristic guns that are worse than present day firearms. So much shooting. At what exactly? 2 people hiding behind a thing wall in a dead end? Michael got a small scratch though I guess so futuristic weaponry isn't all bad.

A humanoid with abilities and a leather jacket and human customs like a handkerchief. At cat. I mean I guess this could/may all be explained but what a bizarre way to start a new season. Not really an interesting new mystery but a rather jarring collection of scenes full of "huh? But..." moments.

I hate to be one of those moaners on here but this wasn't for me. It passes the time and I like sci-fi (and its still better than most of the slim pickings around (Away *shudder*)). I bet I still watch the whole season. It is Star Trek after all and my loyalty knows no bounds apparently.

Season 5 of The Expanse can't come soon enough.
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Atymiss
Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 1:39pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

The Burn. Whatever it was did it happen because BURNham sent the suit back through the worm hole with orders to self destruct???... Just a thought. Everything usually relates to her.
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Artymiss
Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 9:53am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

@Tommy D
It was amazing scenery. I think it's Iceland.
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Atymiss
Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 7:10am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

I quite enjoyed most of it. I really disliked all the violence between Burnham and Book, was it really necessary? Also it was ridiculous, in reality that bloke would've pulverised Burnham I don't care if she is Starfleet trained. And punching people in the face cause you're annoyed with them isn't cool or funny.

The whole thing looked great. And I want one of those parrot alarm clocks.

I love the Sahil character.

I think Burnham had to destroy the time travel suit, it would be too dangerous for it to get into someone else's hands.
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MidshipmanNorris
Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 1:03am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

-_^ "Curious."

I'd never considered this idea in all my years of watching Trek (beginning with reruns of TOS my dad taped off broadcast TV, and the occasional film taped off TV, sometime before TNG came out), that the "Capital F Future" has a "Capital F Future" of its own.

There is a concept called "Zeerust," which in the page quote at

[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Zeerust]

... Is described as "The particular kind of datedness which afflicts things that were originally designed to look futuristic." Star Trek, being set in such a far-flung future, has rarely had to put up with this; ever since CGI became a thing in the 80s (partially pioneered by Wrath of Khan's Genesis Planet Video, in point of fact), it has been easier and easier for Trek to maintain its futuristic aesthetic. There is only one problem:

That aesthetic (and more generally speaking, the entire way the 'universe' or 'world' is built) is starting to get dated, in and of itself, in that there have been no less than 6, count them, 6 shows in this franchise (7 if you count Lower Decks, which I hate to have to do, cuz I despise it) featuring versions of TNG's Aesthetic/General Worldbuild.

- Star Trek: The Next Generation
- Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
- Star Trek: Voyager
- Star Trek: Enterprise
- Star Trek: Discovery
- Star Trek: Picard
and (ugh)
- Star Trek: Lower Decks.

There have been moderate updates (sometimes a bit more than moderate) to the design of the show, the general rules of how its universe works, etc. between these seven shows, but nothing as major as this season of Discovery is shaping up as.

It has essentially flipped the table on Star Trek, in a manner of speaking. Burnham saying "apparently I'm carrying antiques" is, I think, a bit of a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgement that the "Federation Good Guys Vs. The Bad Hats Of The Week for the Fate of the Alpha Quadrant" ...or whatever, has really aged beyond its usable life.

I have never watched a single episode of "Bonanza" all the way through. Likewise, "Have Gun, Will Travel." I have little to no knowledge of the rules or conventions that govern Western Shows, but Star Trek was originally devised as a Western... IN SPACE!

But as the world was refined, and details added in here, there, everywhere, it started to become something different. Much in the same way as Don Henley's "The Last Resort" (and I'm sorry to have to cite Don Henley for anything, but it's just relevant, ok) speaks of, "there is no more new frontier."

Taking Burnham out of the traditional "Star Trekkish" setting, I think, was a good call. Suddenly she can't just phone in to Starfleet and have a bunch of help with things, she has no database to look things up in, she has no resources on which to draw, except for those she has immediately on hand.

That's good for drama. That limits her options severely.

Like others here, I will echo a bit of pessimism about Mr. Kurtzman's, shall we say, multiplicative proclivities when it comes to adding new plot threads all the time...but hey, I want to give the show a chance. I'm bored and there's very little else to watch until Cobra Kai or Castlevania's new seasons come out (staring malevolently, as an evil monkey hiding in someone's closet, at the Lower Decks episodes which I refuse to keep watching).

I will add one final note here; I feel like Sonequa Martin-Green has finally come into her own as an actor. I now believe that Michael Burnham is Michael Burnham. I feel less cringey watching her in this episode, than at any time during the previous 2 seasons. Very well done. She is now a fully fledged character in her own right.

My optimism continues to be tempered with caution. I was not happy, in the long run, with how DISCO Seasons 1+2 nor Picard Season 1 turned out.

Stick to simplicity. Stick to story. Make it count.

Our options are limited.
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Chris Lopes
Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 1:06pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

Overall it wasn't bad at all. We have a chance to do Andromeda without Kevin Sorbo's ego getting in the way. The action was cool, and the 32nd century tech was even cooler. In short, the season has the potential of being very good.
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Chris L.
Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:56am (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S3: That Hope Is You, Part 1

The good news is that there is a real chance for a season full of world building, and a move away from the ridiculous plot lines that involve the entirety of organic life in the galaxy as stakes. A more focused series on the littler things and the mystery of the ‘burn’ could be good.

The bad news is that it is mostly the same writers, so they will probably turn it into a cluster by mid season where Michael Burnham saves the universe single handedly with zero character development three separate times. The dialogue in this episode was atrocious across the board. Have the writers actually had any conversations with real people? Like, ever?

Overall: I liked it as an opener. The potential is better already than either of the other seasons. 2.5 stars, mostly for the inane dialogue. Otherwise 3. I am cautiously optimistic.
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Polaris
Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 9:46pm (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: Evolution

They really did Pulaski/Muldaur dirty. I know most people liked Crusher more but I really liked Pulaski. She was extremely competent as a doctor, and I enjoyed knowing her character over Season 2 (going from treating Data like a wall decoration to generally treating him decently by the end, and bonding a bit with the crew over the season).

Crusher was competent enough, but her character was pretty superficial iirc.

I’m on my second viewing and I’m left wishing even more that we had more time with Pulaski. There was room for both.
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Chris Lopes
Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 4:27pm (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

LD is entertaining enough for what it is. It's not the greatest thing since Raktajino, but it's fun.
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Trish
Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 12:11am (UTC -5)
Re: TNG S3: Menage a Troi

I realize the writers were writing at their time, but it does kind of surprise me that years' worth of comments don't really land heavily on the idea of making a comedy episode founded on forcible human trafficking and sexual slavery. If this plot had been put in a darker episode, it could have been powerful.

And I agree with SkepticalMI back in 2014: Why didn't Wesley just transport on schedule then contact the Enterprise and have someone pass the word to Data and Geordi to check out the rhythm of the static? Why does he have to sacrifice starting his grown-up career to be the one and only person who can save the day again?
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Louis-Joseph Tremblay
Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 2:40pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S1: Court Martial

@Chris Arturo, I had no idea that he was from Montréal, to me everything about him just shouts “Toronto” and that’s only because I knew that he’s Canadian.

Anyhow, on it’s own this is an alright episode but I really enjoy it in context, particularly in light of Data and the Doctor. For me, as a biology graduate and someone interested in philosophy, the idea that a robot of any sort is life, let alone a sentient person is profoundly unsatisfactory, they are well designed copies — my sister in law is allergic is shellfish and so when I had them over for dinner the other day used surimi, imitation crab. I think that if I hadn’t prepared it and didn’t t know the truth I would think that it was real, does that mean that surimi *is* crab?
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Trish
Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:13am (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S4: The Sword of Kahless

Man, you know how some things once seen can never be unseen?

Early in the episode when they are looking at the Vulcan schematics (or are they satellite photos?), it looks like a round-faced Vulcanoid is looking out from the image.
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Trish
Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 10:34pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: The Deadly Years

Random realizations:

When I watched this episode on H & I tonight, I found myself thinking about how the make-up artists succeeded best with making the aged McCoy look like DeForest Kelley really did end up looking in his old age. Everybody else, nowhere near.

Then I found myself saddened at the realization that three of the five performers are gone.

I'll say that the two who remain, William Shatner and Beverly Washburn (Lieutenant Galway), have aged pretty well.

I also found that Beverly Washburn's Wikipedia page was just taken down TODAY.

And I also found myself thinking that the Baby Boomers and the Millennials have in common an engrained belief that the world is rightly theirs. Other age groups are just in the way, and should get OUT of their way. (As a Gen X, I'm sandwiched between them.)
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Trish
Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 8:19pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: I, Mudd

I agree, Trent. TNG is more friendly to tge idea of utopia, and even tries to present the Federation as fairly utopian.
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Trish
Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 8:05pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: Journey to Babel

I also want to mention that even though I wasn't crazy about the premise of the Trek reboot movies ("The entire series you loved now never happened." ) , the one moment in them that rang most true for me was when Sarek answered Spock's question of why he married Amanda truthfully rather than wryly: "Because I loved her."
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Trish
Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 7:54pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: Journey to Babel

Love that moment when Spock tries to bolt from his cot alongside the operating table and Nurse Chapel calmly knocks him out with a hypo. Patient autonomy vs. health professional authority must be a pendulum that happens to swing to the same spot in the 23rd century as it occupied in the mid twentieth.
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Trish
Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 10:49pm (UTC -5)
Re: TOS S2: I, Mudd

I can't count how many times I've seen this (or any other) Trek episode, but for some reason tonight was the first time I thought about how it is an example of Trek's recurring attempt to convince itself that life as it has worked out is the best of all possible worlds, and it would actually be bad to change things, even (or especially) the tough things.

It's often presented as a struggle against the rigid order imposed by technology, as in this episode where the humanoids have to argue to death the androids that want to conquer them by waiting on them hand and foot, or in "Return of the Archons" where Landru's "peace and joy" stagnates a society, much as Vaal stagnates the primitives in "The Apple." But it's also there in "The Paradise Syndrome"; thought Kirk is unspeakably happy among the quasi-Indians, his salvation is to return to the ship, rather like Picard returning to the Enterprise from a lifetime on a planet long dead.

I'm almost starting to wonder if any episode ISN'T about "this is the best of all possible worlds, so embrace your hardships; they're better than happiness."

I'm not one to believe that message myself. Oh, sure, striving to overcome hardship has a certain value, but paradise would sure be nice.
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MidshipmanNorris
Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 1:38am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

"[...] My theory of film is, nobody cares what the movie's called, nobody cares what the movie's about, and nobody cares who's in the movie. They only care about one thing: 'Is the movie any good?'"

~ Nicholas Meyer, "Star Trek Movie Memories," p.167, on the renaming of Star Trek II that happened without his permission

"And if I think Lower Decks sucks... well, that's my opinion, too!! Ha ha ha ha ha"

But seriously, this show sucks. I'm sorry to not be able to say anything further, really. I can't watch it. It depresses me.
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MidshipmanNorris
Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 1:34am (UTC -5)
Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Lower Decks...

Whether it's Trek or Not Trek, satire, parody, or whatever...none of that matters to me.

It's clearly intended as a comedy. I just don't think it's funny.
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Trish
Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 10:24pm (UTC -5)
Re: DS9 S3: Explorers

i wish I liked this episode. I really do. Heck, I wish I loved it. Like Julian Bashir, it seems to be love/hate, nothing-in-the-middle kind of thing.

I do love "getting to know myself" stories, and this is going for that in several character arcs: Bashir faces up to his almost-valedictory past and learns that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, O'Brien comes out as a bro by admitting he "doesn't hate" Bashir, Jake gets an opportunity to start his grown-up life as a writer, Sisko gradually moves deeper into his identity as the Emissary who isn't Bajoran but is "of Bajor" enough to show the Cardassians what his adopted people accomplished in ancient times …

… but speaking of ancient times, this episode kept giving me things to hate, one of them being a cringe-a-minute drunk scene with Miles and Julian singing "Jerusalem" (a hymn celebrating the idea that Jesus literally walked in England in ancient times). Then there was the space travel in a papyrus canoe, the teenager actually enjoying spending time cooped up with Dad, the un-Cardassianlike congratulations with not even a suggestion that the whole thing was a Federation spy mission, the CGI that didn't age well in the age of HD television, Jake's Wesley-like delay in leaving the cast credits, I mean, the crew for the next stage of his education, the "hammer/hammock time" reference …

… maybe I am just in the wrong mood to appreciate this episode's charm …

… every single time I see it.
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