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Henson
Sat, Feb 9, 2019, 1:56pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: An Obol for Charon

I think the issue of nitpicking has to do with Trust in the Author. When an audience has trust in the author, like we do retrospectively for Trek of the past, we're more likely to forgive minor errors like 'degrees Kelvin'. But after DSC season 1, a lot of people either lost trust or confirmed their lack of trust in the showrunners. As such, these minor problems can then look less like mere blips and more like indications of a trend in the quality of the product.
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Henson
Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 11:10am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

@wolfstar

Good stuff. I think there's a Star Trek episode in that...
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Henson
Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 10:10am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

@wolfstar

Oh, I don't disagree! I definitely see the same trends, and I have no problem with discussing those things on this site in relation to science fiction. But much like the people of the Federation, we should strive to be better people, even when those who disagree with us stumble in being better themselves. I thought stargazer's comment was, unfortunately, a bit judgemental and vitriolic. But being judgemental and vitriolic in response doesn't usually help, in my experience. I'd rather just talk and listen/read; that's why we're here, after all!

"Demonizing everyone who dislikes something pushes away ordinary people and potential allies." You know, CounterArguments just recently made a video on YouTube about this, too. Worth a watch.

On the subject of demonization: do you think this trend is due to people in general becoming less tolerant of opposing viewpoints, or due to the less tolerant opinions becoming more visible and/or vocal in an increasingly connected world?
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Henson
Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 9:07am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Point of Light

@Hank

I understand why you're upset, and I get that you feel the need to vent your frustration, but I don't think this kind of comment is helpful in a discussion. I find posting angry usually only serves to increase tensions online, and doesn't really solve any disputes. This site is supposed to be an enjoyable discussion, let's not put more fuel on the fire.

For contrast, I think wolfstar's comment above is a much better, admirable response: reasoned, charitable, and firmly in disagreement.
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Henson
Sun, Jan 20, 2019, 9:12am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S2: Brother

@Tautee7

"Which is it? Grimdark or vacuous? Whichever pejorative is demanded by the occasion, I guess."

Why do you think these two things are mutually exclusive? I can very much see the possibility of a show being both grimdark and vacuous: reveling in an atmosphere of moral ambiguity/relativism without making it any more substantive than window dressing.

I make no claims of whether Discovery has fit either of these molds, but it seems like a show can be both things at once.
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Henson
Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 12:40pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

@Wouter Verheist

Does that now mean we need to insert a character from Discovery into the pilot for TOS?

*trollface*
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Henson
Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:52pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Will You Take My Hand?

So anybody here think the following exchange would be more likely?

L'Rell: "I have a bomb, and I'm going to blow it up unless you all end the war!"

Klingons: "It is a good day to die."


Or maybe.....

"Cowards take hostages. Klingons do not."
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Henson
Wed, Feb 7, 2018, 6:27pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@BZ

Are you suggesting that Burnham was possibly fast-tracked by Sarek into her position as first officer, and that she hadn't earned it? Or that perhaps Georgiou misjudged Burnham's readiness for the position?

I mean, that would make sense, seeing as how she was first officer on the Shenzhou only seven years out of the academy. Considering how Data served for 19 years before becoming second officer of the Enterprise-D, Burnham's record does seem pretty accelerated.
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Henson
Tue, Feb 6, 2018, 4:52pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@KT

"You are missing the point I made in comparing the Sarek mind meld on Saru to polygraphs, which is that if polygraphs of the 22C are reliable, then what Sarek did was no more or less invasive than that"

But they're not reliable. And this is not a small point either; your analogy is predicated on comparing our moral judgements of Sarek's actions to that of a polygraph test, but those judgements change depending on the methods and reliability of the procedure. A polygraph test only gains what the participant decides to reveal, and even then it is not reliable. A mindmeld gains whatever the Vulcan is able to obtain (and based on Star Trek VI, you can obtain quite a lot), and it's very reliable.

I don't know if what Sarek did is analogous to rape or not, but it isn't analogous to a polygraph test.
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Henson
Tue, Feb 6, 2018, 3:42pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The War Without, The War Within

@KT
Polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable, not to mention entirely dependent on how willing the participant is to answer questions. Saru, regardless of whether or not he is okay with the mindmeld, doesn't seem to have a choice. This is not a good analogy.
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Henson
Mon, Jan 29, 2018, 10:17pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: What's Past Is Prologue

@Shannon

We get it. You don't like their complaining, and they don't like your complaining about their complaining. And then you don't like their complaining about your complaining about their complaining. This is an endless battle over nothing. Let it go. Back to Star Trek.

Speaking of which...

I have to wonder, with only two episodes left, how is Burnham's arc likely to end up? And, since she is the main character of this season, what is her arc over this story? I'm just not sure what she's learned and how she's grown, maybe someone can help me out?
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Henson
Sun, Jan 28, 2018, 12:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Gee (@Archer)

"And don't say that's unlikely, because in a multiverse of infinite universes, there are also infinite universes where an MU Archer and an MU Hoshi exists (remember that infinity*infinity is still infinity)."

True, but then there are also an infinite number of universes where MU Archer and MU Hoshi DON'T exist. So if we stumble into a parallel universe, which group of infinites is more likely?

Think of it this way: if we take a number at random, which is more likely: that is will be multiple of 2, or a multiple of 7? Both the groups 'multiple of 2' and 'multiple of 7' are groups of infinite size, but it's still clear that 'multiple of 2' is the far more likely of the two.

Now do the same for Star Trek. One group is 'Universe where Archer, Hoshi, Burnham, Georgiou, Saru, Sarek, etc. etc. etc. all exist', and the other is 'Universe where any one (or more) of those characters do not exist' (and by 'do not exist', I don't mean 'dead'). It's clear that the former is far less likely than the latter, even if both are groups of infinite size.

(It gets even more complicated when we consider that not only is this a universe where all these mirror characters exist, but one in which the inhabitants have had prior contact with a parallel universe that has the Federation.)

Now, personally, I don't think it's worth getting too worked up over the probabilities. Yes, it's kinda silly, logically-speaking, but that the price of admission to this story. It's just one of those premises that you just have to accept at the start, and then take that own internal logic to the rest of the story. Some people can't make that leap, but then, not every story is for everyone!

(For myself, I'm more perplexed by a parallel universe where Vic Fontaine isn't a hologram...)
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Henson
Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 10:58am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Trent

"To me, that's a common strawman. We have to be tough on fascists, we're told. But that we're causing this fascism is always ignored."

I'm not sure what this has to do with DS9. The Dominion is an ancient organization whose practices far predate the Federation. Whether you agree with Sisko & the Federation's actions or not, it's pretty clear that they didn't create the kind of organization that the Dominion is showed to be.

Moreover, while it's certainly worth considering the actions of the Federation towards the Dominion, I think you're misremembering a lot of the Dominion's actions as well. For instance, the Klingon war with the Cardassians was instigated by the Martok changeling. The Dominion tried to start a war between the Federation and the Tzenkethi by taking over the Defiant.
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Henson
Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 11:47am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Vaulting Ambition

@Galadriel

I vote that we make your notation standard in all future discussions. !Character is a neat, clean, and unobtrusive way of denoting mirror universe versions.
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Henson
Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:46pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Galadriel

Your complaints about the risks of serialized television are exactly the things that bug me in storytelling; for a lot of fiction, I can't know if the writers really know what they are doing until the very end. And once we get to that point, and things don't come together, I feel tricked for having stuck with the story for the whole time.

For long-form fiction, I want writers to focus on the journey as well, not just the destination.
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Henson
Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 2:18pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

Actually, disregard my comment above. The Starfleet admiral knew Lorca from before, so...scratch that idea.
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Henson
Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 2:11pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Gee

"Maybe Lorca is actually a (non-sleeper) Klingon? "

Actually, this raises a very interesting question. If Lorca is actually from the mirror universe, then where is his non-mirror counterpart?

This could potentially be explained if Mirror Lorca were actually Mirror T'Kuvma or Mirror Kol. Now, this seems unlikely since I think all of the actors for our known Klingons are accounted for, but...you never know!
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Henson
Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 11:28am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Plain Simple

Well, while I absolutely disagree with your assertion that race is not primarily a biological categorization, I agree that this is not a discussion I wish to get into here; I don't wish to derail the conversation too far from Star Trek, so I'll leave it there.

In any case, I do appreciate hearing your many perspectives on this topic. I'm not sure if I agree with it all, but it's given me something to think about.

On another topic entirely, I definitely feel that the primary reason the Klingons look and sound the way they do was to disguise the actor playing Voq, and I tend to think it wasn't worth it. To cripple your actors' ability to communicate and emote in service of a Mystery Box moment that many people saw coming...bleh. Now the question is, are they stuck with that decision for future seasons?
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Henson
Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 8:54am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Andy

"Would you think they must be related because they're both Caucasian and look similar?"

No one is suggesting that Hoshi and Georgiou MUST be related. It's simply a possibility based on both being Empress, one that some fans have latched onto because they like making connections.

"Would you think an average Russian and average Spaniard look the same to an audience?"

Well, I'm afraid I don't know what an average Russian looks like, any more than an average Pole or German or Frenchman. Or Laotian or Cambodian. And yes, a western audience, like myself, probably isn't so good at distinguishing visually between a Korean and a Chinese Malaysian. Is this a bad thing? Would you prefer a state of affairs where John Cho is told he can't play Sulu because he isn't Japanese? I would think actors would be thrilled that their roles aren't limited by nationality.

And given how Star Trek has not always been picky about nationalities, with both Hoshi and Kelvin-verse Sulu, I don't think audiences are in the wrong for thinking that Georgiou and Hoshi could be related.

""same race" (whatever that is supposed to mean)"

Merriam Webster: "a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits" . I might add the word 'cross-continental' myself, for its most common understanding.
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Henson
Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 6:47pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Plain Simple

"Why would a Chinese Malaysian be more likely to be a descendant (only a few generations apart) from a Korean (or Japanese, if that is what Hoshi was supposed to be) than, say, a Russian or an Australian?"

I think you're getting too hung up on nationalities. Acting and casting are largely about looks. Michelle Yeoh may be Chinese Malaysian; but to an audience, she isn't limited to that nationality. The relevant quality is the visible race of the actor.

Now, yes, it's entirely possible that Georgiou is half-Caucasian or one-quarter American Indian, or all sorts of possibilities, so it's certainly not unlikely that Hoshi's descendants don't look Asian at all, and it's certainly not unlikely that Georgiou would get her Asian looks from many other ancestors. But storytelling takes shortcuts all the time, and the audience accepts shortcuts and conveniences for the sake of storytelling (we accept, for instance, a mirror universe that just so happens to have mirror versions of all the crew, despite the vast improbability). So, an audience, knowing that families carry resemblances, will take that shortcut of visible race as a possible indicator of familial relation.

And of course, once that possibility has presented itself, the fans will want to make those connections. It's fun to try to find how everything links together!

The real question we should be asking, I think, is this: if a non-Asian actor had played the role that Hoshi did as head of the empire, and a non-Asian actor had played the role that Georgiou takes as head of the empire, would people still try to make connections between those two characters? Or perhaps, this: if all the Star Trek series had been made in China with largely Chinese actors, would audiences try to link those same two non-Asian actors in the previous question? And would any of this be objectionable?
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Henson
Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 2:58pm (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: The Wolf Inside

@Plain Simple @Andy

I think I disagree with your objections regarding the Hoshi/Georgiou connection. Two characters, both empresses of the same organization, both of Asian descent, within 100 years of each other. Given the hereditary nature of many of the ruling bodies of our own universe, is it really so bad to hopefully speculate as to a connection between these two entries in the Star Trek franchise? True, the cutthroat nature of the mirror universe might put a damper on the probabilities, but then again, there is a novel Sorrows of the Empire which does make a case for a long-lasting dynasty. The point is, the possibility is much better than just random chance.

I think it's worth making a counterpoint: both Hoshi Sato and Hikaru Sulu are Asian characters in Star Trek, they even both have Japanese names. Yet practically no one that I'm aware of proposes a family relation between them. And rightfully so: there is no reason to presuppose a link between crew officers on starships.
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Henson
Fri, Dec 8, 2017, 11:47pm (UTC -6)
Re: ORV S1: Mad Idolatry

@Lynos: The point was that Isaac DIDN'T significantly influence their culture; they developed out of Kelly-worship and into space travel without his help. This gives Kelly a reason not to feel guilty about the religion based around her, since the superstitious nature of the culture at that time would probably just find something else to worship instead (or perhaps they already were worshiping something that got supplanted by Kelly).

Regarding season one, Orville has been fun, but the writing is incredibly clumsy. The ideas are okay, with some new angles on old stories, but the execution leaves quite a bit to be desired. I find I'm much more excited about the potential of Orville than the result so far: the concept for a 'fun sci-fi star trek about average joes in space' WORKS. What they need now are a few more skilled writers to iron out some of the wrinkles.
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Henson
Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 9:36am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

If nothing else convinces you that Tyler is Voq, consider this: Lorca has a tribble on his desk, a tribble the showrunners have said will somehow come into play. The sole narrative purpose of this tribble is to expose a Klingon infiltrator.
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Henson
Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 9:18am (UTC -6)
Re: DSC S1: Lethe

"the Son of Sarek Whom Shall Not Be Named"

Sybok?
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