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Gumbamit
Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 12:59pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry

@Hank

Whatever ideological axe you have grind, don't take it out on other people, thank you. And spare us the race lectures. People who quote Morgan Freeman and Chief Justice Roberts about "stop racism by not talking about race" have a valid opinion, but theirs isn't the only one. I think I mentioned the word "racism" in my comment above once (I think you mentioned it six times). Perhaps the irony is not understood, but someone who accuses others of "Constant talk of racism, and accusations of racism" at length is not, by your standards, "not talking about race."

Bigotry (as opposed to American racism) found new forms of expression in the Enterprise area as man could now travel to new worlds. Take, for example, the Enterprise two-parter, "Demons" and "Terra Prime," as well as the Enterprise episode "Home." These showed that xenophobia had hardly disappeared by the 22nd century, so it is a matter of debate as to who became enlightened, when, where and how.

Anyhow, what I was actually talking about in my post was that vengeance and war-like thinking did not, in the Star Trek world, leave us overnight, and were not replaced overnight by optimis and enlightened thinking.

The facts of the Star Trek timeline - not what I think or want or assume humanity should be or become - govern this conclusion:

1. 2050s: World War III, in the Star Trek Universe, ended in the 2050s.
2. 2063: The voyage of Zefram Cochrane's Phoenix. Earth, at this point, was still ravaged by war and ruled by "factions," i.e., tribes/
2. 2151-2155: These traits I just mentioned - vengeance and war-like thinking - were still present - in Enterprise (witness Trip's thirst for revenge upon the Xindi for murdering his sister). In Enterprise, even the supposedly enlightened Vulcans were spying on Andorians through a secret listening post at P'Jem, and Romulans were manipulating Aenar Andorians' telepathic abilities to attack other words. "Babel" and "United" showed that tribalism was not only not dead, but was not even past.
3. 2160: The Earth-Romulan war in 2160, which resulted in almost two hundred years of cold war.
4. 2161: The United Federation of Planets is founded.
5. 2255: Discovery takes place.

Based on the above, If there was a great enlightenment that occurred in the Trek universe between 2161 and 2255, it occurred off-camera, and "off-book," as it were.

You stated that we were reasonably enlightened by 2255, and the process of englightenment took "hundreds of years." There are less than one hundred years between 2161 and 2255. There are not even two and one half centuries between our own time and 2255.

In any event, it is unremarkable as a sociological observation to note that an entire society does generally (and indeed did not, in Trek) rid itself of aggressive and tribal impulses in the span of 94 years, based on nothing more than the mere passage of time.

As Kirk said to Anan 7 in "A Taste of Armageddon," "You said it yourself. I'm a barbarian." The notion that man was "enlightened" even by Kirk's time is refuted by this dialogue and other dialogue.

If you actually watch what Star Trek is up there on the movie screen and TV screen, you'll see how easy to conclude that human pettiness and vengeance was not limited to a few isolated incidents by the 22nd century.

What exactly happened to eliminate this behavior? Religion, in the Star Trek Universe, stopped being a motivating force on Earth by the 22nd century. The human brain did not become more complex between now and then. The advent of advanced technology is what separates our 21st century from the centuries ahead in the Star Trek universe, and it wasn't warp drive that brought about our newfound pacifism.

I am not denying we have come a long way since the '60s(we have come a long way), or that as centuries go by in our real world, progress will continue to be made.

Your point was that in the Star Trek universe, we (as a factual matter) went from being warlike to some different kind of plane of thinking by the year 2151 (or 2255 or whichever). The actual facts on the screen (as opposed to what we want to believe) tell a different story.

If you think otherwise, you should be able to present facts from the Star Trek timeline to rebut my argument.
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Gumbamit
Mon, Oct 9, 2017, 3:21pm (UTC -5)
Re: DSC S1: The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry

It would be nice to make a show that is not dark, but in the words of Nicholas Meyer, there is no evidence that bigotry and racism disappeared between the 1960s and the year 2364. Star Trek VI was his attempt to prove his point and the events in Star Trek VI were well AFTER those in Discovery

See p. 214 of this link:
https://books.google.com/books?id=E2sIDAAAQBAJ&pg=RA1-PA214&lpg=RA1-PA214&dq=nicholas+meyer+racism+did+not+disappear&source=bl&ots=eNtxbWhEPZ&sig=XRGmxOSS7Re_NYYZ4wvXeMXEHko&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibvNX-q-TWAhXLjFQKHZ5WAyQQ6AEIODAD#v=onepage&q=nicholas%20meyer%20racism%20did%20not%20disappear&f=false

Meyer has made the point before and since, many times.

Deep Space Nine's "Past Tense" two-parter showed that bigotry and racism were alive and well on Earth in the 2020s, and the World War III referenced in the Star Trek Universe which followed some decades later reinforced the point that humanity had not indeed outgrown thousands of years of warlike thinking. (Enterprise, as well, showed us that acts of terror still happen, and humans will still respond vengefully, like Archer did with the airlock incident in "Anomaly." TOS' "A Private Little War" showed that humans still think as their war-prone ancestors did (Kirk vigorously argued that both sides of the conflict in that episode should have been equally armed, while McCoy passionately disagreed, as Kirk referenced "20th century brush wars" - Vietnam)

In fact, no Star Trek episode or movie made to date shows how, even in a vague sense, human beings came to be TNG-era enlightened. The process of enlightenment has never been shown, I think, because a writer would find depicting it to be dramatically false, and to write something that would strain credulity.

Making an "optimistic, characters don't fight with each other) Star Trek show in the year 2017 that depicts the 23rd Century before TOS as an enlightened age of humanity, would be making a lie.
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